I know! Me and my friends strip naked and spray paint our bodies camo pattern with Krylon. I wish they had used that as an alternative in their tests. Maybe that one is coming out later, when it warms up again. 😁
Played airsoft and did milsim for years. I had a set of emerson gear BDUs that I had already washed with optical brighteners when someone told me the whole "don't do that you'll glow" thing. So I got a second set and was very careful to always wash the newer set by themselves with non-optical brightener detergent. When I got my night vision one of the first things I did was lay out both sets of clothes to see the "glow". Immediately said to myself, "they look the fucking same".
I think what made cammies really glow was starch. Back before the days of wash and wear uniforms like ACUs and MCCCUs we were required to starch our cammies and polish our black boots. This is probably what started the myth about optical brighteners causing cloths to glow in NIR, troops would take their cammies home, wash them in whatever detergent they had on hand then starch the hell out of them (some would take them to the dry cleaners to get starched to the point of being stiff because of the amount of starch used) and these same cammies might be used in the field later on that same day, sometimes with NODs which led to the myth of the washing causing glowing. 1As a result, I know that some people would keep a set or two of cammies that they's wash in detergent with no optical brighteners and wouldn't starch specifically for field or deployment use and nan=another couple of sets washed normally and pressed and starched wear in garrison. While others would have a third set just for junk on the bunk/wall locker inspections along with a pair of botts that were spit shined and never worn.
@Riceball01 when i went through marine corps bootcamp we used tide products to clean our camouflage uniforms and those tide products are filled with optical brighters which went against the label on our uniforms saying not to use detergents with optical brighters. If optical brighters were such a big problem, then the militsry wouldve already issued out laundry detergent that doesnt have optical brighters.
@@crumply5959 It was probably a matter of economy more than anything else. The Corps probably got a good deal on Tide detergent in bulk so that's what they issued out to the MCRDs. Back when I was in it wouldn't have mattered anyway since we would starched and pressed our cammies starting around 3rd phase. That would have definitely made our cammies glow but we did it anyway and continued to do it after we got to our units.
@@Riceball01 That was where I remember been told not sure by who did but not to starch my BDU. Back when they where still around. As for everything else, no one gave a rats ass what we washed them with.
Yea, there is a video someone did where they did plate carrier camo and OMG i had no idea lol. This would be a cool series for them to go through your entire kit piece by piece.
@@cch201992 I don’t think there is a noticeable enough difference for that to make a difference personally. Something else on your kit is going to give you away before that’s an issue
My takeaways 1: Chinese products appeared to work under NV, in this test. (no discernable difference). 2: The current color palette (Ranger Green, Coyote, FDE & Tan 499) work just fine under NV. 3: Black stands out and should be kept at minimum usage. 4: UCP is so fucking dead that we dont even talk about it anymore.
5. Detergents don't matter (starch does, but that wasn't tested here). 6. A higher polyester content will stand out more. 7. Water resistant treatments will stand out more. It would be interesting to see how old school wax treatments would compare.
@@Flemdragon I forgot where I heard the story from, but there was an SAS crew working in the middle east, they were issued AKs, they asked the US SOF guys if there were more M4s to use because the SAS guys were worried about getting shot by the trigger happy locals they were training because they see an AK and not a black gun. Part of the reason they stay with black is for recognition. But also some US Rangers I know paint their guns. If you're not going against an enemy with nods (middle east) it doesn't quite matter if your gun is black or not. But if your enemy had nods then its best to have it painted. Trust me with working under nods Black stands out a lot.
I use my indoor security cameras with IR to measure what gear and clothes light up like Christmas trees. Works in a pinch. My chinese made nylon holsters lit up the most out of everything.
Army Retired, the Army gave us m81 pattern and told us not to starch them to maintain their IR resistance. They almost glowed if starched, was in long enough to go through digitals, multis and the m81’s always preferred the woodlands.
To be fair to the chair force (jk, I have great respect for the AF) , unless you were Air Force rescue, security force, or some other infantry related MOS, it didn’t really matter if your AF uniform glowed.
@HistoricalFidelity it really didn't. I refueled the planes, so wasn't high priority. At least we didn't have to press and starch our desert camo's. That would have been dumb.
There is an easy trick. Matte rustoleum spraypaint. What I like to do is get those goretex hooded coveralls on surplus, then I quickly stencil them up and spray them in a multicam or m81 scheme. Super easy to do, near waterproof yet breathable, and super nir compliant.
Just in case you care, Goretex is lined with PFOS and PFBS materials which sheds off from rain and can contaminate water resources, PFAS/PFOS is a known carcinogen, cheers.
One thing on NIR compliance. Some people think that if a piece of clothing slightly glows under nods it is completely useless. Its worth noting that most leaves will glow under IR, so time of year dependent, it will not make much of a difference.
Just an FYI. The background music is Wave Saver. The song is Night Stalker. It's called retrowave and bands like waveshaper, timecop1983, Home, VHS Dreams and FM84 will make you make if you enjoy that.
Having seen a lot of guys wearing a lot of different stuff under NOD, under a lot of different lighting conditions, the most striking contrasts are usually in gear, not clothing. Most specifically different types of webbing and sometimes hardware like buckles. What sticks out in my memory the most is the MOLLE webbing sewn on packs, plate carriers and other gear. Some of it creates a contrast akin to black and white with it's fabric background. A look at gear from different origins might make for some interesting supplemental content.
The detergent test is something I have been extremely curious about, wasn't sure if it was fudd lore or not. My gut was that it was BS from my own limited trail cam testing. Thank you so much! 12:50 : My thoughts completely. I took one look at my surplus ACU coat and how it was taken care of and decided there was no way this hasn't been through commercial detergents in it's life. I know my dad's uniforms got washed with the rest of our laundry (though those were blueberries so not sure how effective that camo ever was)
@ that makes sense. That and sun fading from hard use in the desert, too. I get where the Fudd lore comes from though, it’s right on the care instructions sewn into the clothes.
@@dirty-civilianwhen I was in, my concern was having a detergent that I wasn’t allergic to, and a uniform that didn’t have salt stains Still standing up from the previous day’s training
My theory is someone washed their kit in a detergent with bleach in 2 or 3 times over the years, the stuff for white laundry, probably didn't even realise and then thought it was down to where it was made that it glowed.
The optical brighteners convert UV light into visible so if you're trying to hide from multispectral camera that won't help but you'll have a hard time anyway. The big thing to look at for near IR is consumer nylon and polyester stuff. A lot of things that look black or OD under vis light are actually bright white under IR. Zippers, laces, and plastic may remain darker, which really shows you what's happening.
I was going to say, optical brighteners affect UV not IR. It can be a factor when deer hunting because they see further into the UV spectrum than we do.
@@jiminysnicket86 you're thinking of thermal (LWIR), which has a wavelength about 10x longer. MWIR is for very hot things, and is between that and NIR, and its super cool.
16:21 i remember all the sniper platoon guys in my battalion said they were required to use m81 for their foundations and now i know why, man thats good camo
Guys, You forgot to mention or test the “Good-ole-boy / hillbilly” camouflage, the flat spray painted types of uniforms…much like we did in Vietnam in the early days with our O.D. Green utilities !
Absolutely amazing job guys. This is a very hard thing to get data on as an end user. Dirty Civillian shows itself to be one of the best educational channels in the industry again.
As a Marine vet I can say in my experience the only time I was ever able to tell a difference was if one of us was wearing a garrison uniform (read heavily starched and pressed) in the field. After that we made sure to separate out field uniforms that never got starched and our garrison uniforms. Anyone else have the same experience?
I bought a cheap army costume for Halloween as a kid way back in elementary school and as a laugh I decided to check if it would work under IR. Surprisingly, I could still see the pattern clearly and it actually matched the brightness of my actual surplus.
I would have liked to see this experiment done with both WP vs GP tubes. Since green phosphor gives you more contrast, perhaps you might have seen more of a difference than with white phosphor.
Damn I love you guys and your non-BS approach to stuff. Been a part of the 100% NIR or "foggetaboutit"-squad but got cured because not even the military is as uptight about it. And also, none of us is either CAG, SEALs or SAS so it doesn't matter as much as other things. Also, can relate to Josh. Was running the 240B during an exercise and accidentally hit an alarm mine (Loud thing that fires of a bang like a .22lr shot and then screams while burning bright orange), so I dove for cover and our group engaged the enemy. After about 15 minutes of gunfight the location was secured and we regrouped. Our NCO takes a look at me and says, hey man, you are burning! Looks like i had hit the ground a little bit too close to the alarm mine because that sucker had dripped burning material down on me, while i was happily rattling away 7.62 and had lit my gasmaskbag on fire, melting it to something H.R. Giger would have been proud of. NoMelt-NoDrip is a thing. The storage personal were ... uhm sceptical ... to my story. Good times.
I have a ton of Crye from my time in the Marine Corps (20 years). Fire resistance is the primary factor for any of my civilian $hit. If you can’t afford the actual fire resistance stuff, buy used surplus analog pattern or simply look for a higher cotton value in modern set.
@DirtyCivilian awesome awesome content. Y'all always are doing content that gets my attention, very informative. especially me being a civilian with no mil or leo background.
About detergents and laundry products, it seems they do "glow" under some night-vision, just not analogue NG. This can be seen in S2 underground's video on the topic. He has one set of army issue cammies that look fine through a PVS but on a digital camera are very washed out and glow when illuminated. I guess it's not as worrying since people don't look through digital color night vision mounted on their helmet, in combat. But it is something to keep in mind. NOTE: the effect might not be from optical brighteners, it might just be from another laundry product like fabric softeners, it's hard to tell
We washed our clothes with Tide in the Marines all the time... and we routinely did nigjt movements with NVGs.... idk where that rumor got started, but it sounds insane lol
Really appreciate the time you all put into research on these subjects! That being said please do an episode on budget NV like Good night gear NVG30 and others in that range. Cheers
NIR rating for your fatigues is a data point, but I think the MOST important factor to consider is fading. China camo fades very fast in deeper colored patterns like M81. A second major consideration should be fire resistance. Not only are some of the Emerson/China camos nonFR, but they will burn like fuel and melt to your skin. These are the two biggest pros to the Gucci stuff. Some other NIR things to consider: - M81 pack covers are sometimes difficult to find, and the off brand versions do glow like neon. A solution to this is the Brit DPM covers, which you can regularly find for $10. - Russian bean camo/gear generally glows pretty bad under IR - Standard finishes on ARs glow, and spray painting goes a long way. This applies to solid colored gear, like a ranger green PC. - No matter how much NIR compliant your kit is, a thermal user will kill you
I’ve heard the FR rumor but have not seen any proof, and I’ve had numerous bangers go off on me, and once had to help put out a fire in a desert town during a burn ban which started due to a banger going off too close to a bush. Zero damage to the Chinese Cryes I was wearing at the time. NYCO doesn’t just burst in flames, nor does it melt to skin. Now, something with a polyester blend would.
@@dirty-civilian Comment from Po1are states this: "About detergents and laundry products, it seems they do "glow" under some night-vision, just not analogue NG. This can be seen in S2 underground's video on the topic. He has one set of army issue cammies that look fine through a PVS but on a digital camera are very washed out and glow when illuminated. I guess it's not as worrying since people don't look through digital color night vision mounted on their helmet, in combat. But it is something to keep in mind. NOTE: the effect might not be from optical brighteners, it might just be from another laundry product like fabric softeners, it's hard to tell" Another comment from roflchopter11 says this: "The optical brighteners convert UV light into visible so if you're trying to hide from multispectral camera that won't help but you'll have a hard time anyway. The big thing to look at for near IR is consumer nylon and polyester stuff. A lot of things that look black or OD under vis light are actually bright white under IR. Zippers, laces, and plastic may remain darker, which really shows you what's happening." I'd like to see some tests done in a follow up video with camera night vision if possible... and perhaps some ways to defeat thermal.
I was on duty and bored the other night and literally made a physical note to learn about NIR clothing. I noticed that our body cam's night vision shows parts of our uniforms "glowing". Made me want to see if I could buy some different clothes and body armor to help keep colors the same under IR.
@borrago so I'm disqualified from noticing something and making a note to learn more about it because I carry a badge and wear a body camera? Seems like the antithesis of professionalism to be ignorant when faced with something new.
This was a great application of the scientific method, and I really appreciate all the effort you guys had put into this. I'd love to see more of this night vision experimentation with other kinds of clothing, and within an urban setting. I live in an urban environment, and my personal plan involves staying in the same general area, so I'd love to find clothing that is both inconspicuous in an urban setting, but also still applicable to a tactical situation. Full camo here would just mean "shoot that guy first," but a sweatshirt and jeans draws far less attention when moving place-to-place.
The only thing I would change about this video is a section on Dyes. The RITT dye is a cheap and popular option to make patterns darker/better (like UCP) and also doesn’t harm the IR visibility of the fabric, and in some cases make even make it better than it was before in the case of knock offs.
Great video and very informative to anyone unfamiliar with how uniforms appear under night vision. The only thing missing would be how black uniform/MCB brands appear. There were a few bits of info about it, but a video on just how terrible black can be would be eye opening. Many articles of clothing and gear that appear black in daylight completely change under nods. And if you are mixing articles that do and do not, it increases the contrast between the patterns. Contrast is bad when trying to blend in so keep that in mind!
great video, I play airsoft and as soon as NVG appeard in game I tested everything, also found that the more poly/rain material the worse was the uniform, though not a game over it is bummer.
My personal favorite is tshirt, jeans, battle belt, and backpack. If shtf for real then most people are gonna run around in some sort of gear. My goal is to look as normal as possible to avoid second looks. I understand that I’m at a disadvantage in certain circumstances but with all the community and resources I helped build and am a part of I think I’ll be alright
Great video, once again, we find the problem that I routinely talk about which is “wind tunnel arguments” in the industry. Somebody makes an claim which is based off a highly specific measurement, a.k.a. putting a pair of clothes down and then looking at it and ecstatic/sterile environment and then running with that one date point to apply without any practical application. - Case and point, it doesn’t matter
Can you test with UV and Thermal too? I have found some stuff lights up like you wouldn't believe under a UV light when it is a subdue color under visible light.
I’ve done some testing with thermal (over 100 photos of 20+ fabrics) I found that there is a huge difference between regular UCP and Rit dye UCP, the dye UCP is better. Also have found that TPC does a fantastic job at drastically reducing thermal radiation exposure by more than 90%
Great video! Some take-aways from this vid: Fabric types, like polyester, and treatments, like waterproofing, make a bigger difference than almost anything else, and the principles of camouflage and concealment (shape, shine, silhouette, etc.) still matter.
When we went from BDUs to the ACUs I absolutely hated it... lucky for me it happened at the very very end of my time in the Army. Now if only I could get back to a weight where I can find surplus BDUs I can wear.
Just as I commented in the signal reduction video. Check your gear under NVG's, you might be surprised. Great work on the video! This is crucial information to have and understand. Now before you send off all those uniforms. Try them under thermal. Some should reduce your heat signature. Others not. My bet on the best from this video is the mesh cover top.
The fact that you watched the whole video on just camouflage colors suggests autism. But I don’t think you got the point of that. I watched this whole video pretty much knowing it didn’t have any difference before hand, I just wanted to know the explanation and see the proof, because of my autism😂 lol
The video isn’t just to say it doesn’t make a difference. There are tons of 1-5 min videos saying that or arguing against it. This video was about showing the actual proof to the claim. So not clickbait. An actual well thought out video. You never truly learn anything if you don’t take the time to know the why behind an answer
From the reading I've done in regards to Camo, it is more of a hunting (4 legged animals) concern. The brighteners they use in detergents and Chinese cloth are an ultraviolet concern, not IR. Deer see in the ultraviolet. To test your camo in the ultraviolet, use a black light in the dark - like at the skate rink. I use my Olight Arkfeld with ultraviolet light to check camo at the store. Works pretty good, but would be better if I could do it in the dark. It would be fun to see an actual video testing it
I have both and the stitching on the knockoffs goes bad fast under training. My pants had a gaping hole in the knee area after my second class. The next range trip an identical hole on the opposite leg
Of course the $30 pants will hold up fine in the corner of the closet, never put under stress or abrasion. They'll hold up well from the car to the range table. I mean the pockets will even hold a whole box of little Debbie's! But imagine, if you can, physical activity. Kneeling, sprinting, athletic movements. They blow the seams day one. If you are doing the work you'll find they don't cut it. And that's how I know you aren't about it.
When you mentioned that the lighter colors tend to blend/bleed out to look like one color, is why uniforms are "over-dyed" to help the pattern last longer in visual/NIR aspects over time
Great video, hopefully we’ll see another one about firer resistance(about both fire retardant / NMND sets) and about overall comfort and durability. I’ve heard mixed opinions about sets coming from idogear and emersongear, hopefully you’ll be able to provide more information
At 12:16 it looks like the uniform on the left is brighter. It's possible this uniform had been treated with something that was more reflective of IR from the factory. Would be interesting to see it washed in something without OBs like Ecos Laundry detergent (no OBs). 19:54 is mostly what I see as far as hard fails in NIR compliance. The dyes don't come through, and the material just looks "white". 23:45 hey, now you're getting it.
Honestly, what I learned from this video is that the lack of camo pattern is what made someone crazy easy to spot. Those combat tops where so obviously. Obviously they are made to be worn with plate carrier but definitely something to keep in mind so it's not your only top.
I use sportwash detergent, mostly out of nostalgia. On my 2nd deployment i learned that the detergent that the fob laundry services was using was sport wash
I remember my first sergeant telling us to be careful with how we wash our gear because of how we'd appear under nods. He didn't say much about the detergent but, he did warn us to stop using hot water and heated dryers though. I think he just wanted our uniforms to stop being so faded.
Detergents are going to brighten the fabric closer to the uv range, the opposite end of the spectrum from ir. Deer can see into the ultra violet range which is why I don't wash my camo in those detergents.
Oddly enough. Last night I went on a night hike with a buddy of mine. And the conversation of NIR compliant stuff came up. Only because his pants were "glowing". But it was never the glow that gave him away. It was always the shape of the legs that gave him away. Or the shape of his body in front of something. And Im convinced, if you just pretend like its daytime all the time and use the same principles of concealment against night vision, then you should be fine.
Not testing Columbia/Magellan fishing shirts and Wrangler jeans is a betrayal of the good ‘ol boy army and will not be forgotten
😂 thank you for that comment. Seriously, we all need to laugh more and you had that effect on me. I get it, most of my friends are cattle. 😂
Hahaha true
Preach Brother!
I know! Me and my friends strip naked and spray paint our bodies camo pattern with Krylon. I wish they had used that as an alternative in their tests. Maybe that one is coming out later, when it warms up again. 😁
Not going to forget this slite😎
I just patrol naked, using body paint to match my surroundings.
Now that's the real OG way
Work smarter not harder. 🤙😂
@@dirty-civilianhe definitely works harder. Really hard.
Dude's living in the year 3000.
As a side bonus, tactical outdoor bathroom use efficiency = 100%.
I use mud to mask from thermal like schwarzenegger in the Predator, “GET TO THE CHOPPAA”
Played airsoft and did milsim for years. I had a set of emerson gear BDUs that I had already washed with optical brighteners when someone told me the whole "don't do that you'll glow" thing. So I got a second set and was very careful to always wash the newer set by themselves with non-optical brightener detergent.
When I got my night vision one of the first things I did was lay out both sets of clothes to see the "glow". Immediately said to myself, "they look the fucking same".
I think what made cammies really glow was starch. Back before the days of wash and wear uniforms like ACUs and MCCCUs we were required to starch our cammies and polish our black boots. This is probably what started the myth about optical brighteners causing cloths to glow in NIR, troops would take their cammies home, wash them in whatever detergent they had on hand then starch the hell out of them (some would take them to the dry cleaners to get starched to the point of being stiff because of the amount of starch used) and these same cammies might be used in the field later on that same day, sometimes with NODs which led to the myth of the washing causing glowing. 1As a result, I know that some people would keep a set or two of cammies that they's wash in detergent with no optical brighteners and wouldn't starch specifically for field or deployment use and nan=another couple of sets washed normally and pressed and starched wear in garrison. While others would have a third set just for junk on the bunk/wall locker inspections along with a pair of botts that were spit shined and never worn.
@Riceball01 when i went through marine corps bootcamp we used tide products to clean our camouflage uniforms and those tide products are filled with optical brighters which went against the label on our uniforms saying not to use detergents with optical brighters. If optical brighters were such a big problem, then the militsry wouldve already issued out laundry detergent that doesnt have optical brighters.
@@Riceball01that’s right
@@crumply5959 It was probably a matter of economy more than anything else. The Corps probably got a good deal on Tide detergent in bulk so that's what they issued out to the MCRDs.
Back when I was in it wouldn't have mattered anyway since we would starched and pressed our cammies starting around 3rd phase. That would have definitely made our cammies glow but we did it anyway and continued to do it after we got to our units.
@@Riceball01 That was where I remember been told not sure by who did but not to starch my BDU. Back when they where still around. As for everything else, no one gave a rats ass what we washed them with.
Clothing is one thing, pouches/bags/chest rigs/carriers are another! PART 2 PART 2!!
Oh Man..........
I've got a tan magpul sling that glows like crazy.
Yea, there is a video someone did where they did plate carrier camo and OMG i had no idea lol. This would be a cool series for them to go through your entire kit piece by piece.
The washed and unwashed was crazy I thought the unwashed was brighter so perhaps new is brighter than older ones🤷🏼♂️
@@cch201992 I don’t think there is a noticeable enough difference for that to make a difference personally. Something else on your kit is going to give you away before that’s an issue
My takeaways
1: Chinese products appeared to work under NV, in this test. (no discernable difference).
2: The current color palette (Ranger Green, Coyote, FDE & Tan 499) work just fine under NV.
3: Black stands out and should be kept at minimum usage.
4: UCP is so fucking dead that we dont even talk about it anymore.
I have a friend who days she loved the UCP......I don't understand
@@jvang2293 I love UCP
@jvang2293 probably nostalgia it was sexy af in the old cods
5. Detergents don't matter (starch does, but that wasn't tested here).
6. A higher polyester content will stand out more.
7. Water resistant treatments will stand out more. It would be interesting to see how old school wax treatments would compare.
@@Blackpilled_Fever_Dream Nice inclusions.
I have a Greenpeace Vest and a clipboard. Everyone just stays away
You forgot N95 mask. That'll keep everyone away from disturbing you.
@learndesignwithdev lol
FEMA cover works phenomenal
Hilarious 😂
Save the Kids!
I found it super interesting that the contrast of black was a bigger issue than the reddit NIR crying
Yeah, it’s wild.
Just look at a black rifle vs FDE under nods. Can spot the black so much faster at greater distances
Paint your guns ;)
@@PBerBlueCobraeveryone says that but the military has all black rifles for ever and I’ve never been like there’s a rifle there.
@@Flemdragon I forgot where I heard the story from, but there was an SAS crew working in the middle east, they were issued AKs, they asked the US SOF guys if there were more M4s to use because the SAS guys were worried about getting shot by the trigger happy locals they were training because they see an AK and not a black gun.
Part of the reason they stay with black is for recognition. But also some US Rangers I know paint their guns.
If you're not going against an enemy with nods (middle east) it doesn't quite matter if your gun is black or not. But if your enemy had nods then its best to have it painted. Trust me with working under nods Black stands out a lot.
I use my indoor security cameras with IR to measure what gear and clothes light up like Christmas trees. Works in a pinch. My chinese made nylon holsters lit up the most out of everything.
That's a great idea!
The ring camera does the same thing. My Chinese backpacks light up easily
Ah, just rub some dirt on it, you’ll be fine
Put a little rattle can flat paint on them
Tac bros on suicide watch
Yeah cuz stitching doesn't matter at all.
These intros are too fun. No fun allowed when talking about cool subject.
Awesome work!
Yeah, you know how it is… gotta keep things professional. 😉
@@dirty-civilianif certain people only knew of the shenanigans that we down down range….maybe they’d get the stick out of their 4th point of contact….
Army Retired, the Army gave us m81 pattern and told us not to starch them to maintain their IR resistance.
They almost glowed if starched, was in long enough to go through digitals, multis and the m81’s always preferred the woodlands.
Unfortunately the AF made us starch and iron our uniforms. So all my old bdu woodland are heavily starched, definitely would glow.
To be fair to the chair force (jk, I have great respect for the AF) , unless you were Air Force rescue, security force, or some other infantry related MOS, it didn’t really matter if your AF uniform glowed.
@HistoricalFidelity it really didn't. I refueled the planes, so wasn't high priority. At least we didn't have to press and starch our desert camo's. That would have been dumb.
There is an easy trick. Matte rustoleum spraypaint. What I like to do is get those goretex hooded coveralls on surplus, then I quickly stencil them up and spray them in a multicam or m81 scheme. Super easy to do, near waterproof yet breathable, and super nir compliant.
Ay. It's the mt6 homie. I got one of your patches on the way.
@mace_felloutthe_windu hell yeah! Thanks for your support brother 🙏 ❤️
Just in case you care, Goretex is lined with PFOS and PFBS materials which sheds off from rain and can contaminate water resources, PFAS/PFOS is a known carcinogen, cheers.
@@mace_felloutthe_windumt6 gang 🤙🏽
@@austinallen7081 we're just out here chilling and spreading the good word
One thing on NIR compliance. Some people think that if a piece of clothing slightly glows under nods it is completely useless. Its worth noting that most leaves will glow under IR, so time of year dependent, it will not make much of a difference.
Just an FYI. The background music is Wave Saver. The song is Night Stalker. It's called retrowave and bands like waveshaper, timecop1983, Home, VHS Dreams and FM84 will make you make if you enjoy that.
Dont forget Gunship and The Midnight
@ strange. I started listening to them Monday. 🫡
Forgetting the goat " purturbator"
@ that I did. Venger is a great tune
Shhhh this is supposed to stay a secret...
Just want to say under the green phos PVS14s the army uses, all camo patterns are effective.
I go full Celt: I paint my body blue and scream "FREEEEEDOM". The Scottish accent is a nice touch as well.
Ah, the Brogue.
This makes me feel REALLY good about saving my old BDUs
Having seen a lot of guys wearing a lot of different stuff under NOD, under a lot of different lighting conditions, the most striking contrasts are usually in gear, not clothing. Most specifically different types of webbing and sometimes hardware like buckles. What sticks out in my memory the most is the MOLLE webbing sewn on packs, plate carriers and other gear. Some of it creates a contrast akin to black and white with it's fabric background. A look at gear from different origins might make for some interesting supplemental content.
The detergent test is something I have been extremely curious about, wasn't sure if it was fudd lore or not. My gut was that it was BS from my own limited trail cam testing. Thank you so much!
12:50 : My thoughts completely. I took one look at my surplus ACU coat and how it was taken care of and decided there was no way this hasn't been through commercial detergents in it's life. I know my dad's uniforms got washed with the rest of our laundry (though those were blueberries so not sure how effective that camo ever was)
I think the degradation of the fabric over years of washing it with literally anything, is what strips a camo of whatever NIR properties it once had.
@ that makes sense. That and sun fading from hard use in the desert, too.
I get where the Fudd lore comes from though, it’s right on the care instructions sewn into the clothes.
@@dirty-civilianwhen I was in, my concern was having a detergent that I wasn’t allergic to, and a uniform that didn’t have salt stains Still standing up from the previous day’s training
Yeah fudds don’t know much
My theory is someone washed their kit in a detergent with bleach in 2 or 3 times over the years, the stuff for white laundry, probably didn't even realise and then thought it was down to where it was made that it glowed.
M81 still fucks! Got it!
God's Plaid
M81 stands out badly. Its iconic but the worst for night vision.
@@PotzyMccoy Did you even watch the video? Check out from 15:42 and on.
NIR Debunked. Very helpful to understand this aspect of patterns and options now!
The optical brighteners convert UV light into visible so if you're trying to hide from multispectral camera that won't help but you'll have a hard time anyway.
The big thing to look at for near IR is consumer nylon and polyester stuff. A lot of things that look black or OD under vis light are actually bright white under IR. Zippers, laces, and plastic may remain darker, which really shows you what's happening.
I was going to say, optical brighteners affect UV not IR. It can be a factor when deer hunting because they see further into the UV spectrum than we do.
Your body heat will overwhelm your clothes under NIR ;)
@@jiminysnicket86 you're thinking of thermal (LWIR), which has a wavelength about 10x longer. MWIR is for very hot things, and is between that and NIR, and its super cool.
16:21 i remember all the sniper platoon guys in my battalion said they were required to use m81 for their foundations and now i know why, man thats good camo
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
You guys continue to just kill the program. Great camera work and loads of info. Congrats on the success, you are earning it!
Thanks! Glad you're enjoying the content!
Guys,
You forgot to mention or test the “Good-ole-boy / hillbilly” camouflage, the flat spray painted types of uniforms…much like we did in Vietnam in the early days with our O.D. Green utilities !
Thank you for doing this video. You guys are asking and answering valuable questions most of us don't have the opportunity or money to test.
Our pleasure!
@@dirty-civiliankryptek in part 2?
@@RiklionheartI second this!
Ive been buying tan uniforms spray painting them and then giving them dirt water baths its worked extremely well for me thus far
Absolutely amazing job guys. This is a very hard thing to get data on as an end user. Dirty Civillian shows itself to be one of the best educational channels in the industry again.
As a Marine vet I can say in my experience the only time I was ever able to tell a difference was if one of us was wearing a garrison uniform (read heavily starched and pressed) in the field. After that we made sure to separate out field uniforms that never got starched and our garrison uniforms. Anyone else have the same experience?
Yep, did the same thing. Had two sets for garrison, the rest for field and never washed them together.
I bought a cheap army costume for Halloween as a kid way back in elementary school and as a laugh I decided to check if it would work under IR. Surprisingly, I could still see the pattern clearly and it actually matched the brightness of my actual surplus.
I would have liked to see this experiment done with both WP vs GP tubes. Since green phosphor gives you more contrast, perhaps you might have seen more of a difference than with white phosphor.
Damn I love you guys and your non-BS approach to stuff. Been a part of the 100% NIR or "foggetaboutit"-squad but got cured because not even the military is as uptight about it. And also, none of us is either CAG, SEALs or SAS so it doesn't matter as much as other things.
Also, can relate to Josh. Was running the 240B during an exercise and accidentally hit an alarm mine (Loud thing that fires of a bang like a .22lr shot and then screams while burning bright orange), so I dove for cover and our group engaged the enemy. After about 15 minutes of gunfight the location was secured and we regrouped. Our NCO takes a look at me and says, hey man, you are burning!
Looks like i had hit the ground a little bit too close to the alarm mine because that sucker had dripped burning material down on me, while i was happily rattling away 7.62 and had lit my gasmaskbag on fire, melting it to something H.R. Giger would have been proud of. NoMelt-NoDrip is a thing.
The storage personal were ... uhm sceptical ... to my story. Good times.
Norarm is by far the most comfortable and well made clothing in have ever worn. They thought it all through. You will not go wrong with Norarm.
Great info. As a "dirty civilians" I would have loved to see each tone flannels thrown in.
Flannels are weird, some of the ones I have you can actually see the flannel pattern still under NV but other ones just look like a solid color
Wranglers and flannel deserved to be on this clip
I have a ton of Crye from my time in the Marine Corps (20 years). Fire resistance is the primary factor for any of my civilian $hit. If you can’t afford the actual fire resistance stuff, buy used surplus analog pattern or simply look for a higher cotton value in modern set.
You guys are awesome! Your content is amazing and one of a kind.
Thanks so much!
@DirtyCivilian awesome awesome content. Y'all always are doing content that gets my attention, very informative. especially me being a civilian with no mil or leo background.
About detergents and laundry products, it seems they do "glow" under some night-vision, just not analogue NG. This can be seen in S2 underground's video on the topic. He has one set of army issue cammies that look fine through a PVS but on a digital camera are very washed out and glow when illuminated. I guess it's not as worrying since people don't look through digital color night vision mounted on their helmet, in combat. But it is something to keep in mind. NOTE: the effect might not be from optical brighteners, it might just be from another laundry product like fabric softeners, it's hard to tell
That's not nothing. Digital night vision is definitely present on vehicles and/or fixed positions.
Everyone's still worried about night vision but thermals are used generally now
Probably shows up well on Ring cameras too.
I may have to apologize to my mother for washing my camouflage
We washed our clothes with Tide in the Marines all the time... and we routinely did nigjt movements with NVGs.... idk where that rumor got started, but it sounds insane lol
Really appreciate the time you all put into research on these subjects! That being said please do an episode on budget NV like Good night gear NVG30 and others in that range. Cheers
This is tremendously useful, thank you! You two are truly living the Dream.
Awesome to see marpat in the mix 14:01
It was my understanding starch is what reflects under IR, and not to starch field uniforms.
NIR rating for your fatigues is a data point, but I think the MOST important factor to consider is fading. China camo fades very fast in deeper colored patterns like M81. A second major consideration should be fire resistance. Not only are some of the Emerson/China camos nonFR, but they will burn like fuel and melt to your skin. These are the two biggest pros to the Gucci stuff.
Some other NIR things to consider:
- M81 pack covers are sometimes difficult to find, and the off brand versions do glow like neon. A solution to this is the Brit DPM covers, which you can regularly find for $10.
- Russian bean camo/gear generally glows pretty bad under IR
- Standard finishes on ARs glow, and spray painting goes a long way. This applies to solid colored gear, like a ranger green PC.
- No matter how much NIR compliant your kit is, a thermal user will kill you
I’ve heard the FR rumor but have not seen any proof, and I’ve had numerous bangers go off on me, and once had to help put out a fire in a desert town during a burn ban which started due to a banger going off too close to a bush. Zero damage to the Chinese Cryes I was wearing at the time. NYCO doesn’t just burst in flames, nor does it melt to skin. Now, something with a polyester blend would.
I will say… that test will be in the next one. Thank you for the reminder! 🤙
FR materials still melt to your skin. Don't stand in the fire.
@@dirty-civilian
Comment from Po1are states this: "About detergents and laundry products, it seems they do "glow" under some night-vision, just not analogue NG. This can be seen in S2 underground's video on the topic. He has one set of army issue cammies that look fine through a PVS but on a digital camera are very washed out and glow when illuminated. I guess it's not as worrying since people don't look through digital color night vision mounted on their helmet, in combat. But it is something to keep in mind. NOTE: the effect might not be from optical brighteners, it might just be from another laundry product like fabric softeners, it's hard to tell"
Another comment from roflchopter11 says this: "The optical brighteners convert UV light into visible so if you're trying to hide from multispectral camera that won't help but you'll have a hard time anyway. The big thing to look at for near IR is consumer nylon and polyester stuff. A lot of things that look black or OD under vis light are actually bright white under IR. Zippers, laces, and plastic may remain darker, which really shows you what's happening."
I'd like to see some tests done in a follow up video with camera night vision if possible... and perhaps some ways to defeat thermal.
You guys keep coming out with great content ! Appreciate all that goes into these videos and the value to your audience! 🤙
I was on duty and bored the other night and literally made a physical note to learn about NIR clothing. I noticed that our body cam's night vision shows parts of our uniforms "glowing". Made me want to see if I could buy some different clothes and body armor to help keep colors the same under IR.
No one who wears a body cam for work needs to worry about NIR.
@borrago so I'm disqualified from noticing something and making a note to learn more about it because I carry a badge and wear a body camera? Seems like the antithesis of professionalism to be ignorant when faced with something new.
This was a great application of the scientific method, and I really appreciate all the effort you guys had put into this. I'd love to see more of this night vision experimentation with other kinds of clothing, and within an urban setting. I live in an urban environment, and my personal plan involves staying in the same general area, so I'd love to find clothing that is both inconspicuous in an urban setting, but also still applicable to a tactical situation. Full camo here would just mean "shoot that guy first," but a sweatshirt and jeans draws far less attention when moving place-to-place.
The only thing I would change about this video is a section on Dyes. The RITT dye is a cheap and popular option to make patterns darker/better (like UCP) and also doesn’t harm the IR visibility of the fabric, and in some cases make even make it better than it was before in the case of knock offs.
I did testing with both green phos NVGs and thermal imaging, the rit dye literally makes it better, surprisingly
I dyed my UCP wind breaker in ritt green and it looks super good. It went from “I’ll never wear this” to one of my favorite jackets
Great video and very informative to anyone unfamiliar with how uniforms appear under night vision. The only thing missing would be how black uniform/MCB brands appear. There were a few bits of info about it, but a video on just how terrible black can be would be eye opening. Many articles of clothing and gear that appear black in daylight completely change under nods. And if you are mixing articles that do and do not, it increases the contrast between the patterns. Contrast is bad when trying to blend in so keep that in mind!
IDO Gear is pretty good. I've been happy with the stuff from them that I use.
I have been wondering whether they were good or not
@@tonytaylor5461I have a few of their mag holsters and pouches, they’ve held up getting banged up in the mountains and thorn bushes
@@tonytaylor5461 no good ido gear sold me crack... twice
@@tonytaylor5461 they're great. Only complaint I have is their G3 tops have a really, excessively tall collar.
@tonytaylor5461 I've ran their clothing and pouches. So far after 3 years of frequent hard use they're still holding up.
great video, I play airsoft and as soon as NVG appeard in game I tested everything, also found that the more poly/rain material the worse was the uniform, though not a game over it is bummer.
US customers are buying Chinese optics, night vision and thermals as well. Not just clothings.
Finaly! I have waited for a Test like this. I would love to see a test like this with Plate carriers like CPC or SPC.
I bought a camo poncho off Amazon. It glows like a white board under nods.
A lot of plastics do that.
I have g-code mag pouches and those also light up but rattle can camo paint solved that issue. Great mag pouches though.
krylon fusion
This is one of THE BEST videos I have ever seen on testing gear. These guys nail it! THIS is HOW to conduct a study!
“Babe… no what? We can’t leave now Dirty Civilian just dropped a new vid”
My personal favorite is tshirt, jeans, battle belt, and backpack. If shtf for real then most people are gonna run around in some sort of gear. My goal is to look as normal as possible to avoid second looks. I understand that I’m at a disadvantage in certain circumstances but with all the community and resources I helped build and am a part of I think I’ll be alright
Ballistic plate in the backpack?
@ not a bad idea. If I get one I’ll actually seriously consider that good call
Great video, once again, we find the problem that I routinely talk about which is “wind tunnel arguments” in the industry. Somebody makes an claim which is based off a highly specific measurement, a.k.a. putting a pair of clothes down and then looking at it and ecstatic/sterile environment and then running with that one date point to apply without any practical application.
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Case and point, it doesn’t matter
This is the greatest video I have ever seen on this topic bar none!!!!!!
Can you test with UV and Thermal too? I have found some stuff lights up like you wouldn't believe under a UV light when it is a subdue color under visible light.
I’ve done some testing with thermal (over 100 photos of 20+ fabrics) I found that there is a huge difference between regular UCP and Rit dye UCP, the dye UCP is better. Also have found that TPC does a fantastic job at drastically reducing thermal radiation exposure by more than 90%
Great video I have been waiting on something comprehensive like this for awhile. thanks guys!
Would you happen to know if the the silicone sprays for waterproofing boots and fabrics glow any more or less through night vision?
It can, but it’s not significant.
Great video! Some take-aways from this vid: Fabric types, like polyester, and treatments, like waterproofing, make a bigger difference than almost anything else, and the principles of camouflage and concealment (shape, shine, silhouette, etc.) still matter.
Boog boys out there going goblin mode and punching the air because this test proved NIR is modern fudd lore & they didnt need the 800$ cryes
Uhhhh boog wear civie clothes ur thinking of MTS cornballs
@RonnieRawdawg Fair enough
I recently came across y’all’s channel and have been learning SO much! Thanks for making these videos and educating all of us!
9:59 Yeah. Your wallet can tell the difference though.
When we went from BDUs to the ACUs I absolutely hated it... lucky for me it happened at the very very end of my time in the Army.
Now if only I could get back to a weight where I can find surplus BDUs I can wear.
Jokes on you, I NEVER wash my uniforms, that way my mommy stays out of my room because she can't stand the stench
Just as I commented in the signal reduction video.
Check your gear under NVG's, you might be surprised.
Great work on the video! This is crucial information to have and understand.
Now before you send off all those uniforms. Try them under thermal. Some should reduce your heat signature. Others not.
My bet on the best from this video is the mesh cover top.
How about flame retardant ability of the knock off garments?
This is very cool. Pretty much every conclusion you guys arrived at surprised me.
Cover yourself with mud Predator style, problem solved.
So so happy you guys are covering this topic! I love this kind of stuff! Also what gloves are you wearing at the beginning of the video?
Soooo.... 25:16 long video to conclude that : It doesn't matter ???.... click bait video.
You must be very interesting to talk to at parties
The fact that you watched the whole video on just camouflage colors suggests autism. But I don’t think you got the point of that. I watched this whole video pretty much knowing it didn’t have any difference before hand, I just wanted to know the explanation and see the proof, because of my autism😂 lol
The video isn’t just to say it doesn’t make a difference. There are tons of 1-5 min videos saying that or arguing against it. This video was about showing the actual proof to the claim. So not clickbait. An actual well thought out video. You never truly learn anything if you don’t take the time to know the why behind an answer
I thought going into this video it was going to be boring but turned out to be very interesting.
From the reading I've done in regards to Camo, it is more of a hunting (4 legged animals) concern. The brighteners they use in detergents and Chinese cloth are an ultraviolet concern, not IR. Deer see in the ultraviolet. To test your camo in the ultraviolet, use a black light in the dark - like at the skate rink. I use my Olight Arkfeld with ultraviolet light to check camo at the store. Works pretty good, but would be better if I could do it in the dark. It would be fun to see an actual video testing it
My nerd out was so stimulated with this video. Thank you.
Love the content ya'll do. Keep up the good work. 😤👌
Tactifudds trying to justify 300 dollars for a pair of pants 😂😂 the knock offs looked almost identical
I have both and the stitching on the knockoffs goes bad fast under training. My pants had a gaping hole in the knee area after my second class. The next range trip an identical hole on the opposite leg
@@crackshot-tvcrye does the same shit. Had a hole in the knee very quickly
@@crackshot-tvthis is the area where the ruggedness of the stitch of fabric seams and the material will be greatly different.
Larpers trying to justify their cheap gear that won’t hold up in a firefight.
Of course the $30 pants will hold up fine in the corner of the closet, never put under stress or abrasion. They'll hold up well from the car to the range table. I mean the pockets will even hold a whole box of little Debbie's!
But imagine, if you can, physical activity. Kneeling, sprinting, athletic movements.
They blow the seams day one. If you are doing the work you'll find they don't cut it.
And that's how I know you aren't about it.
I go the naked snake route for camouflage
When you mentioned that the lighter colors tend to blend/bleed out to look like one color, is why uniforms are "over-dyed" to help the pattern last longer in visual/NIR aspects over time
Thank you so much for doing this. I learned a lot and broke some myths I had about this. You guys rock!
Great test!
Appreciate the time and due diligence in putting all this together.... for science....
Great video, hopefully we’ll see another one about firer resistance(about both fire retardant / NMND sets) and about overall comfort and durability. I’ve heard mixed opinions about sets coming from idogear and emersongear, hopefully you’ll be able to provide more information
At 14:37 there’s a ghostly orb! That’s why dude had his Glock out! You need to call the paranormal team! Lmao!
At 12:16 it looks like the uniform on the left is brighter. It's possible this uniform had been treated with something that was more reflective of IR from the factory. Would be interesting to see it washed in something without OBs like Ecos Laundry detergent (no OBs). 19:54 is mostly what I see as far as hard fails in NIR compliance. The dyes don't come through, and the material just looks "white". 23:45 hey, now you're getting it.
Honestly, what I learned from this video is that the lack of camo pattern is what made someone crazy easy to spot. Those combat tops where so obviously. Obviously they are made to be worn with plate carrier but definitely something to keep in mind so it's not your only top.
Should def do a 2nd part with gear/rigs/carriers both off brand and brand name stuff you guys opened up a new realm of info and i want more lol
This is a good topic, I learned quick my knock off gear glowed under NVG's.The material around the knee and elbow pads especially.
I use sportwash detergent, mostly out of nostalgia. On my 2nd deployment i learned that the detergent that the fob laundry services was using was sport wash
I remember my first sergeant telling us to be careful with how we wash our gear because of how we'd appear under nods. He didn't say much about the detergent but, he did warn us to stop using hot water and heated dryers though.
I think he just wanted our uniforms to stop being so faded.
Detergents are going to brighten the fabric closer to the uv range, the opposite end of the spectrum from ir. Deer can see into the ultra violet range which is why I don't wash my camo in those detergents.
Now do different camo patterns. I wanna see vegetato under nods vs multi cam
Excellent Content! Many of us here at the shop found it super helpful!
Oddly enough. Last night I went on a night hike with a buddy of mine. And the conversation of NIR compliant stuff came up. Only because his pants were "glowing". But it was never the glow that gave him away. It was always the shape of the legs that gave him away. Or the shape of his body in front of something. And Im convinced, if you just pretend like its daytime all the time and use the same principles of concealment against night vision, then you should be fine.
I always look forward to y’all’s videos thanks dc
Just spray paint stuff that stands out. Did it to a black 5.11 backpack, worked like a charm
If you have any questions just go walk through a trail camera at night. My favorite hunting patterns all look snow white against a black background.
Fun fact, trail cams use the same image sensors as the digital night vision monoculars