@@RonnieStanley-tc6vi dude I've watched tons of drone videos from Ukraine and let me tell you bullets are not enough , a 40mm birdshot would be absolutely perfect , the versatility of grenades you could use is simply unbeatable
tbh this is a last line of defense kind of solution far better solutions are jammers and laser systems that can reach out and destroy drones miles away.
The future of warfare must assuredly be explosive rounds and all guns are basically grenade launchers. Fixes the drone problem. Gets around body armor.
The hi lo system of 40mm in practicality mimics the use of black powder in terms of recoil and energetics by limiting the amount of charge to something small enough that it isn't dangerous to the user. As he said the end of 10 guage was due to smokeless powder having higher energy density. I suppose you could, in a pinch, bring back black powder specifically for giant tube shotguns. They might even be civilian legal at that point ,since they would be black powder guns and thus not regulated like the KS-23.
The only advantage of bigger bore shotguns is pattern density. From my experience down range energy is a product of muzzle velocity and pellet (projectile) weight.
13 днів тому
You Gay? Women, shotguns, and trucks Mans best friends.
@@markniemi3924 shouldnt be hard to take a 37mm with revolving cylinders and strengthen up to handle 6 or 8 gauge cartridge adapters for 3d printed shotgun shells!
I was a regular Army Air Defence Artillery officer from 2017-2021 and am currently a staff officer in a Combined Arms Brigade in the National Guard. I wrote a "white paper" for my unit to discuss organic solutions to the drone threat. Essentially I was looking at older ideas from a time when we didn't have air superiority and I initially suggested a passive defense of trying not to be seen outright. One SOP I suggested for dismounted soldiers was hiding under a poncho liner as the drone passes to attempt to camouflage yourself visually and by distorting your heat signature. Of course this won't work for very long but might help in a quick pass by. For active defense I suggested shotguns(if we could get bird shot) or trying to shoot them down with rifles and SAWs. Something is better than nothing and I don't want our soldiers feeling helpless. Less important in this context was creating a standardized UAS reporting procedure for a BN SOP. That will be huge for our unit but less helpful in a minute man type context. I deployed with a CRAM unit to Afghanistan in 2020 and we did NOT have a good answer for the drones being used by our enemy. Lots of gadgets and random tech but nothing we had in our hands at the time was very effective at detecting or destroying drones in my opinion. Honestly knowing what I know I think drone swarms will be to modern warfare what the machine gun was to European armies in 1914. I think we're only getting a taste in the current Ukraine conflict. When I left regular Army ADA in 2021 we did not have a non-classified solution for the drone problem. I know there's some stuff in the works currently but it's a serious threat without a simple and battle tested solution.
@@johnturtle6649 Jammers are a thing, but there are counters to this too. Wire guided drones using fiber optic cables are now being fielded on the battlefield, and they work even when jamming is present. A reliable hard-kill system is necessary to defeat drones. FPV drones are just the tip of the iceberg too, once AI guided drone swarms become a thing, it'll be exponentially more devastating.
@@EnigmaHood Yeah, this is absolutely true. Drones can also be pre programmed and not need any outside signals. The downside of those types is that if the battlefield changes their programming can be obsolete or even destructive if they fly into previously non existing structures.
I have been involved with the Norwegian military for most of my life. A few tours to Afghanistan and thereabouts. Learning and teaching asymmetrical warfare doctrine for almost 20 years. I have friends that have gone to Ukraine, some of them have not come back. I have read stories and talked to a lot of Ukrainian soldiers. Drones terrify me and the world is not ready.
When I was in the middle east we had a few CUAS systems I was in charge of. Having talked to friends that also went to Ukraine and have operated, I really hope CUAS capabilities have evolved with drone capabilities the last decade. It's pretty terrifying
Those are too big for the 12GA magnum shot shells and too small for those used in the Huey gunships 2.75 rockets.That leaves the M79 grenade launcher as a prime suspect.I brought a tobacco bag full of the 12GA flachettes home,that I cut from a shot shell in’68 to see what they looked like.
Just for your clarification the CIWS is not throwing up a wall of lead with the hope that the missile will run into it. It uses radar to track the back of its own bullets and uses continuous aim correction to correct its point of aim/point of impact offset for each of the six barrels in realtime. its very much not a spray and pray activity. I am a former CIWS tech for the US Navy.
Oh, I know that it is extremely precise, but at those ranges, and against those projectiles, not every round lands. That's why the cyclic rates are so high.
More like a $2000 mossberg 500 that will cost $10,000 tax payer dollars and have the remaining $8000 split between D.O.D and the Manufacture or Defense contractor
They already have Mossberg 590s. They will spend 20 million dollars per unit to make automated drones that can shoot the shotguns to shoot down other drones.
You definitely sound like a young, hip Rod Serling and then three quarters of the way through the vid you say "Imagine if you will". Pure gold! Hope those folks in New Jersey are watching!!
It's a great skill that helps an awful lot. Bird hunting, skeet, & trap teach you to track a moving target regardless of if your ranged weapon is a gun, a bow, or a snowball.
@@LUCNUKEM Tons of people in the comments here are naysaying this idea. Most have probably only shot rifles at static targets on flat ranges. Hunting and clay shooting teach you a lot more than just basic marksmanship. Shooting under pressure at an unpredictable moving target, with a limited window of opportunity is an irreplaceble training tool you don't get shooting static on a flat range. Predator and small game hunting has a similar effect with a rifle, as wing shooting with a shotgun
Helps in Ukraine but your a bit right the AI swarms are what we should all be worried about open AI is working on them. I beg you don't you don't pay for chatgpt and run Llama locally
Assuming drone swarms do become a threat, shooting at individual drones would be an act of futility. At that point, the priority would become neutralizing nerve centers that control entire swarms, or failing that, something like directed EMPs.
I think drone swarms are going to need to be knocked down with directed energy weapons, but when swarms are directed against individual guys, they probably split up.
@@hiramabiff604 Maybe not, but it is exactly how MASERs work. See vids on here of the Epirus Leonidas system knocking out whole swarms in one second. The shotgun being lauded here will be futile, as others have said.😊
Only another ai controlled swarm can counter a swarm and then its a matter of programming and innovation to get the advantage. Future wars will be swarm attacks that get mostly destroyed but a few get thru to the target then retaliation etc until ai decides to go after the meatsaks controlling the ai😂
We had a drone showing up scoping out our property. It’s still on my property now in several pieces . The old 12 gauge did just great and nobody came to claim it
@@smilingscottsman I told an attorney that and his response was , do you think a jury would convict you if that drone was flying around your kids windows ? And remember that jurors are normal people not worthless government officials.
@whitepunch1392 Jurors today are highly vetted to determine if they'll "get the conviction right" as in siding with the with the prosecuter. I've been through the process before and was disqualified because I asked to many questions. The thing you mention here has been illegal for years. Long before drones were ever invented. In fact, I was curious about that very thing and tested the theory of "peeping through windows" at my office. Know what? No matter what I did, I could NOT GET BY THE REFLECTION OF THE DRONE in the windows... No matter how hard I tried... In fact, 3 employees were shocked at my inability to snoop on them as they worked. And yes, they all knew ahead of time what I was going to try to do.
There's a shell I've seen online that the Russians are experimenting with for anti drone work, it's a segmented, cylindrical lead slug with all six "pie slices" connected by woven kevlar thread, making a spider web like net. Put it in either a slow twist rifled barrel or put a rifled choke in a regular barrel to make sure the segments spread out and you've essentially made a high velocity net gun for tangling up quad copter rotors, but might also be useful against two legged ground targets as well in an emergency.
In the TV show Sons of Guns, Will Hayden the gunsmith from Lousiana made a 3 barrel rotating electrically powered shotgun/machinegun, a weapon like that could be put on a pickup and then you have a unit of fast and mobile drone hunters.
"Medium distance" for this kind of weapon would be what 300yds at most? What about the drone sitting miles away guiding in a gps guided munition onto your location?
Imagine having that system connected to a radar shooting 12 gauge magnum birdshots at drones it would utterly annihilate any commercial drone in no time , you could strap that baby on pretty much any vehicle and eliminate the drone threat
I thought of this too. Sadly, Metalstorm went bankrupt. The irony is that China continued to develop the system (after the inventor claimed to decline an offer of 100 million by China), and is now fielding it on their ships as an anti-hypersonic defense CIWS, according to a report I read recently.
Excellent work and analysis here, Isaac! More than ten years ago, I built a ‘zombie gun’ for ‘plinking’ out of a $200 Winchester SXP (Shadow) and $105 Nordic mag tube extension. It now holds 11+1, 2 3/4” 12ga shells, and 9+1 3” shells. It can get heavy, but even with the pump, it can throw a lot of lead into the air, very quickly. The funny part is that I never imagined it would be anything but a toy. Now, it’s perfectly set up as an anti-drone weapon!
Having shot many flechette rounds, I wouldn't recommend them, look at TSS shot. I like your under barrel idea, but would suggest you hinge the barrel sideways like the HK269 under barrel grenade launcher. Hinging the barrel sideways clears its chamber from rifle magazine interference. Stick with 3 inch 12 gauge with say number 6 size tungsten shot and modified choke.
That was my thought as well. TSS will have far more energy at 60 metres than the flechettes. I think you are right on the #6 size shot. I wouldn’t go any smaller. Maybe go up to #5 or #4 max. You want good energy down range but a good dense spread as well. I hear guys, who don’t do any type of clay shooting sports or bird hunting, say we “need double 00 buckshot”. That’s all they know from experts talking about personal defence. I try and educate them that 00 buckshot is good for hunting deer and stopping humans. But they don’t understand the dynamics of hitting flying objects.
I used a BPS (Browning Pump Shotgun) in 10 ga. in the early 2000’s for Goose Hunting.They are 3-1/2” in length. There are now 12ga. shells in the 3-1/2” length.They’re longer to hold more powder and shot which creates more felt recoil.
I got two of them vintage bad boys with 11 rds capacity is good enough for me and not that heavy either equiped with fiberoptic front sights for my old aging eyes !!!
If the Metal Storm MAUL was still around, i believe it would be a great platform for this line of development. increase the gauge to something around 10-6 gauge and you get semi-auto system with easy to carry and swap preloaded barrels for different uses. you could carry it loaded with No.4 tungsten buckshot for general purpose and additional tubes for slugs, breaching rounds, tungsten flechette, 000 buckshot, or anything else you could really need. I also believe that instead of arrow flechettes of the older styles, you could easily design more "pin" or finish nail shaped projectiles that could be more easily manufactured en masse (or just buy over the counter for handloads) and be able to fit more into a shell without the need to flip half of the projectiles backwards and relaying on air resistance to reorient them in flight.
The problem with "pin" flechets is that they don't fly straight. They tumble and shed velocity quickly. On the subject of getting more projectiles into the air, there is "cubic" shot. It's cube shaped with rounded corners. Allows more shot to be packed into the shot cup. Winchester uses it in their Blind Side ammo. They designed the shot cup to not sepearte from the shot too quickly, since square shot has a wider spread and sheds velocity quicker then round shot. Having a wider spread after a certain distance, and more pellets in each shell is what Winchester designed Blind Side for.
Really great idea putting a single shot shotgun under the barrel of an AR! When I bird hunt, I prefer non-reciprocating shotguns for lower weight, no game warden issues, and longer barrels. The last one means I bring home more birds because I can take a second to line the shot up. IME, I hit fewer birds with pumps and autos. Barrel length is important for pattern entropy and projectile speed, but yeah, you need a separate weapon. With all your mentions of the 19th century shotguns, I wondered why you didn’t mention the KelTec KSG25 with it’s 30.5” barrel in an overall length of 38” which is slightly less than average for a shotgun. It’s not what someone would want for home defense, and I can imagine what a game warden would want to see. It’s also more than 15 lbs loaded, but 21 3” shells or 25 regular shells that could get hurt a drone at 100 yards with off the shelf 12 ga seems not to be a bad idea. There’s also that not so wonderful Keltec reliability, and they really should supply a tube of Vibratite with every weapon- but that’s enough musing.
Both 12ga 3½" Magnum and 10ga 3½" Magnum are already great for Drone destruction using Hevi-shot or Bismuth. I have a Browning BPS 10ga 3½" Magnum with 30" vent rib barrel with Undertaker choke and Briley magazine extension tube. My favorite is My Browning A-5 12ga 3" 28" Modified choke vent rib and Briley magazine extension for a total capacity of 11 rounds of 2¾" shell's. These shotguns are almost perfect for Anti-Drone Defense.
Guys- you're way overthinking this. 7 ½ shot for clays will work just fine for any drone reasonably close. If it's farther than that and moving, most guys couldn't hit it and I have other things to worry about. I have a commercial drone and it wouldn't take much to knock it out.
Use 2 carbon fiber 12 gauge barrels straddling below the ar barrel rather than a single larger gauge. 12 guage is available to the masses now and the 2 barrel setup makes a nice flat bottom on the handguard. Both fire simultaneously of course (not sure if volley is legal or not).
Shotguns would work like skeet shooting or possibly carry 3 small drone to intercept the larger drone that's trying to kill you; you only need to destroy 1 blade if it's a quadracopter so the interceptor drone could be very small.
I have been thinking of this exact thing for the past week except with a bullpup and a tubular magazine instead. Haven't drawn anything I'm just thinking of how it would work. I didn't think having anything bigger than a 12 gauge would be worth the added weight but I now understand your argument for a bigger gauge and also agree.
This comment is to highlight the man's beautifully dry comedic timing. I love it. Excellent education wrapped in a delicious presentation. Well done team
I own an original Winchester Model 1887 lever action black powder shotgun. It has a rolled steel barrel (damascus wa s available also). It was designed to be used with full length brass shells 2 7/8" at the time. 3 1/2" magnums were not available until around 1930. I actually took it goose hunting once and ended up bagging a quail. I really wish I knew the history of this gun. After all, it is from the wild West.
there was an interesting HK project called CAWS, it was an attempt to redesign shotgun ammo with a rimless all metal shell with tungsten buckshot and high pressure ammo
And one more thing is a dedicated shotgunner, he can have various rounds for not only his self-defense but Close Quarters combat but also aerial defense and just have people in your team that are dedicated shotgunners for taking care of those things trained to do it as well.
I think youre absolutely right about the caliber upgrade. Im part of a larger CAD community and, if youre willing to open-source that Under-barrel design, we could have it in open-beta in no time flat. We actually have an adamant 26.5 enthusiast on board whom I am sure would fall in love with this project.
@@georgewhitworth9742 Im definitely the noob, and I dont know that this is good advice, but I started working backwards. I got a printer, started playing with settings in the slicer and then modifying other peoples files with primitives. That is also not the most efficient way to modify or build things, but it allowed me to take very small steps. Orca slicer is about as useful as TinkerCAD as far as I can tell. Plus, you know, it slices. There are other ways to start but this got me goin.
you could use a beretta 1301. it's 6 pounds, simple and fast. load tungsten magnum rounds and you are set. it's a valuable alternative and you can carry it next to a standard AR somewhat "easily"
T-shirts work against small drones, just throw it Taking the magnetron and transformer from an old microwave and fixing it to a dish can smoke a bigger drone & leave no marks. Just spend some time adjusting the mounting position for focus. I'm not saying I did this, but, if I did I would focus it narrow and mount an optic, for distance.
I’ve been thinking about round 00Buck sized fishing sinkers, joined by Heavy Fishing line or Wire Trace. You know Tracer Shells? Multipurpose still does 00 Buck jobs, with a cutting action between pellets? I’ve tried both 00 Buck and two musketeers balls. They held together and the musket balls Penetrated into a hollow log.
@@paultull7406 it worked but not very reliable. we were using lead spit-shot, it seamed not to be able to remain connected. however i think if we had a better crimping device with steel shot it would have been much more successful.
@@paultull7406 another problem we had was preventing the strand from being inter-twined gother into a blob.. perhaps a paper divider between each layer might help..certainly something to play with.
@@sierramtnswest That’s a Good idea. Also the heavier thicker line and wire are more springy and might not tangle as much. It’s a trial and error thing. That you’d have to shoot onto paper to tell?
The flare gun pistols have been around for a while, in varying calibers, from 12 Guage to 1.5 inches (40mm). It would be lighter and less awkward to carry than a long barrel shotgun.
I think that casting a net of sorts or anything that can get caught up in the props would be really effective as well. When they are grounded, they can be detained for ransom or dismantled for intel.
I actually disagree with this approach entirely. If anything, you would want to be going smaller and lighter rather than larger. It's certainly not a "no-brainer" because recoil impulse is a huge factor in terms of follow-up shots, and pattern density and individual shot energy should be the key performance metrics that you should be focused on. TSS is as big of an innovation for shotguns as smokeless powder, and the result is thicker pattern density with higher shot energy in smaller shot shells with less recoil. So the questions we need to ask are: What is the required pattern density to hit a drone? (For waterfowl, the rule of thumb is at least 100 pellets in a 30" circle, or roughly 1 pellet per square inch.) And what is the smallest pellet possible that still carries the energy required to take down that drone? With the current crop of small drones, #7-#8 TSS moving at 1400 fps is probably more than enough out to 60 or 70 yards, and with 200-300 pellets per 12 gauge shot shell, it should have plenty of pattern density. In fact, there's an argument that it might be better to go with 20 or even 28 gauge, where putting two rounds on target might be better than a single, larger shot that's harder to recover from. Larger drones require less pattern density and larger shot (kind of like geese versus ducks), and using 1.25 to 1.5 ounce loads of #4 TSS not only provide sufficient pattern density for larger drones, they are also effective anti-personnel rounds.
Is a bit of an issue when the robotic bird moves more akin to a bee on cocaine. You will want to cover as much area as possible cus the little fucker WILL move out of your position at a random place, and you better pray the dispersion hits it or the bullets arrive on time.
@@sirnikkel6746 I take it that you've never hunted small birds. They are still faster and more maneuverable (possibly more erratic?) than modern drones. It seems counterintuitive, but bigger isn't necessarily better when it comes to hitting small, aerial targets. That's why many waterfowl hunters have ditched 12 gauges for 20 and even 28 gauges. Dispersion doesn't work because you still need adequate pattern density (1,000 pellets in a 10' circle is completely worthless), so it's far better to have a dense pattern within a reasonable area while also having the ability to make a quick, accurate follow-up shot.
@@newscoulomb3705 I have, but my broke ass and restrictive country wouldn't allow me to get more than one of those cheap ass 4.5mm Gamo rifles. And even then I only could hit em while they were standing still. So, true that I don't have any idea how it works with shotguns and with the fellas on the fly. So, that means that a 16, 20 or even 24 gauge shotgun CIWS esque gun would work wonders against drone swarms?
@@sirnikkel6746 Yeah. Shotgun hunting is a whole thing. Just a layperson's experience from 35+ years of hunting. So I'm far from an expert, but there are some guys who do amazing (analytic and scientific) videos on shotgun ballistics. "Surviving Duck Season" and "The New Hunters Guide" both have some detailed breakdowns of shotgun ballistics.
In the powerhouses prior to performing coal fired boiler, we would use 10&12 gauge shotguns to remove hanging slag formations so they were not falling from the ceiling. Double O buckshot usually worked in the corners, boiler tubes are not damaged by lead pellets.
1887 Winchester was 12ga. 1901 was 10ga. Reworked to handle smokeless powder. Lever was slightly different and other subtle changes. (Without touching on mods to the movie prop).
Great video discussion and ideas. 1969 Australia.105 mm fleshette round fired at flat wooden targets at ranges varying from 25 yards out to 300 yards. Ignoring targets knocked flat (up to 75 yards, ) about half the one inch fleshette penetrations in the plywood targets were sideways or substantially sideways oriented so I agree the fins are not that effective ballistically. In theory, miniature replicas of entubed projectiles fitted with spring fins might work for a cluster round. If I can drop a magpie at about 50 metres (not flying too fast admittedly) with a .177 (4.5mm) air rifle, I think I can cope with a nuisance drone within 50m that's not flying to fast (with minimal noise and good deniability if somebody gets upset at their precious toy's unexplained loss of stability and subsequent destruction when it falls on a roof or hard ground.)
Longer projectiles having more dwell time in these rotor wash makes sense, but also flechettes pierce instead of bouncing off. I wonder how well drone rotors work when burdened with pins sticking out of the underside, or worse catching inside the rotary mechanism.
Fibrotic cable is pretty light. Makes the drone unjammable but now the range is less… would be fun to grab the fiber and swing the drone around by it then into a tree…
Yes, my main "Home Defense Firearm" is my 12 gauge shot-gun and my back-up firearm for "Home Defense" is my 9mm Beretta 92 pistol. I've read and seen many police video reports that stated only 3-5 rounds where fired so, I have a Stoger double barrel break-open Coach Gun with extra rounds attached to the stock and while my Beretta holds 17 in the clip I only keep 15 loaded (none in the pipe). Against a swarm of 10 or even 20 drones about 2-3 feet in size (flying in close formation) then some #8 bird-shot would likely be the best round as you want to damage or disable as many as possible. If its just 1 or 2 then even in a close formation your odds of hitting one of them is less than a swarm of them so your going to have to be accurate! You might be better off with a Pistol Caliber Carbine on automatic fire and 100 round drum. I've seen a homemade 12 gauge that was fully automatic and a had a 25'ish round clip, it had an extremely short barrel and was shaped like an old school MAC 10. If you think about it some sort of exploding round would be good to but #8 bird-shot has a lot of pellets and if you had a semi auto with a 10 round clip you could wreak a swarm of drones! Again.... they would need to be flying in a close formation and not do a lot of maneuvering for you to be effective but I think at close formation it would be a bad idea to start looping a spinning as you'd likely hit your wing-man!
Funny, Forgotten Weapons just released a video on semi-auto shotguns. Maybe the threat of drones will force some innovation in the shotgun space. Now, a rimless shotgun shell for use with vertical stack box magazines would be dope. However, from my minimal understanding of firearms, belt-fed machine guns work fine with rimmed cartridges. I'll say it - a belt-fed machine shotgun! I want it and I want it now! :)
My grandpa's 10 gauge 42inch barrel shotgun brought down several geese at same time that were flying together at higher altitude than modern cívilian drones operate.
Great content, as always, Isaac. Winchester wanted a lever shotgun, because they were a lever action company. James Cameron wanted a lever action shotgun because a pump action is nearly impossible to run on a bike. A lever action isn’t much better but hey, it’s James Cameron. He worked out a way for a suburban housewife to effectively take out 7-10 armed terrorists with a MAC-10 after her inability to manage recoil results in her dropping the open bolt smg down a small flight of stairs. Hey, I’ll buy that. If you’ve ever been in the vicinity of a first time shooter with a MAC-10, you know recoil management, is the focus of whoever put that weapon in their hand. Hollywood rarely gets it right when portraying firearm use of any kind. Hence the “Hollywood quiet” reference, regarding suppressor performance. When they do get it right, like the Val Kilmer/Heat reload or Keanu Reeves training like a pro for the Wick franchise, we love it. Schwarzenegger’s one hand rotation to cycle a sawed off lever action 10 gauge is a perfect example of completely unrealistic. However, to my 12 year old eyes, when I first saw the movie…it was the coolest thing I’d ever seen. So cool, I attempted it with a daisy lever action on a dirt bike. Yes, it was stupid and unsuccessful and I almost crashed into a tree. But without those action movies, I would have never become a firearms enthusiast and a 2A advocate in constant contact with my local representatives. Without that ridiculous attempt with a BB gun on my XR80, I may not have ended up the strict firearms safety guy that you’re relieved to see in the lane next to you at the range. So Holllywood may not be so bad after all. Of course I’m kidding, they’re terrible.
I was thinking about this the other day when I saw a man taking out an explosive drone with a shotgun. Where did Metalstorm go? Remember the electrically launched caseless ammo box? Something like this on a tracking mount may be the ticket for dealing with drone swarms.
With the advent of cheaper and more energy efficient smart optics on rifles the XM25 projekt would be worth revisiting. I think you can easily reduce the bulk of the XM25 and make it a viable, Squad Anti Drone Weapon.
Back in the Vietnam War era the US Army had the 40mm M79 grenade launcher. Two of the many available ammo types were shot pellets and flechettes. Add those to the ammo mix for the 40mms currently on armored vehicles, possibly along with radar control, plus delayed bursting charges for longer range, and you have a fairly cheap counter measure.
I really enjoyed your video and I don't want to distract from the video or split hairs on it's details but for historical accuracy the Terminators black powder shotgun would have been a sawed off 1887 lever action shotgun in 12 gauge. in 1901 Winchester introduced the 10 gauge version of the same gun but was able to shoot modern smokeless powder. This shotgun truly is a lot of fun to shoot!
I like the idea of more shells rather than bigger ones. A M1014 with 7 (9 ghost loaded) has decent recoil and allows you to recover quickly from misses or address multiple threats.
@trex labs, i definitely see your reasoning behind the single barrel attachment design, but with having shot at least 2,000 rounds of 12ga in trap and skeet, a second or even third shot would go a long way. Its challenging enough to hit a target that travels about the same speed and angles with lots of practice, but a drone that can change speed and direction quickly and without notice will leave you missing more shots then at the range. I appreciate your efforts to find something new, but i think the anwer lies in a dedicated platform. The hardest part of shooting a moving target is knowing how far to lead/aim. A sighting device that keeps you from shooting at the wrong time would be very helpful but of course very complex. I think in the case of using a shotgun for drone defense, you're going to need a ton of practice to keep the device simple, or a very expensive complicated system.
I've been a huge proponent of introducing something like the south African handheld 20mm cannon mixed with advanced fire control to revive the musket as the main fighting weapon for ground forces. Against infantry, an airburst or impact detonating shell is more effective as supression and inflicting casualties, and with shotshells you are more effective at fighting troops moving from cover to cover. Against drones air burst shells will be better at range, and shotshells will be better up close.
Rotate the whole mechanism 45 degrees clockwise (as viewed from the breach). Position is still useful to be fired using the supporting hand (assuming a right-handed shooter), better clearance for loading, and you would again be able to break open the rifle by pulling only one takedown pin.
Been saying this for the last 2 years. Semi-auto shotgun is perfect for fpv drones. They could also be built into a fast delta wing drone to destroy high altitude recon drones. For a swarm a gatling type multi-barrel weapon can be mounted on vehicles.
Excellent video. Just wanted to point out that the comment about not being able to tilt an AR upper and receiver apart with the under barrel attachments for disassembly is not a problem. All you have to do is pull both front and rear assembly pins, and retract the lower away from the upper in a rearward direction.
Nobody talks about the fact that Gyrojets are the ideal weapons for drones. Extremely lightweight, nearly no recoil, and the acceleration distance isn't an issue on a drone
@@8urfacehow about recoilless shotguns then? Or even recoilless autocannons? Basically, what I mean is you take something like Andruil's roadrunner, and instead of a warhead attach a revolver 30mm recoilless autocannon with proximity fused rounds. And said cannon can be made quite light: use carbon fiber wrapped titanium barrel and a jet nozzle (for the recoilless part). Revolver may have only 6-10 rounds, but the idea is to get closer to the target for the increased probability of hitting it, obviously targeting and shooting is done by a computer and the thing operates just as a SAM, that shoots its payload and diverts at the last moment.
When I was a kid growing up in Maine, we had something that was called a goose gun. It was a 10 gauge shotgun with a really long barrel. That would probably work good for the drones.
An interesting thing to add to the conversation is 37mm devices, they exist in underbarrel, thumper style, basically any configuration a 40mm has been designed in is also available in 37mm. the distinction is that 37mm is civilian legal and accessible. they are limited to use as signaling devices. but I could see a round similar to chafe being considered a signaling round and being effective against drones via tangling propellers.
As someone around drones all the time and watching the different methods, a shotgun is by far the cheapest most reliable method to stop a drone. Being able to detect drones before they get close so you have the time to react is the first challenge that needs to be addressed. Automatic shotguns need to be part of every platoon. You don't have to blow the drone out of the sky like a bird. Just hitting props brings them down fast.
Bring back the OICW!!! In all seriousness though, if you get the round right you can have a family of arms. The OICW with the over barrel mag fed 20mm converted to work with modern optics and a round that has shotty options would still not be as good as a 40mm dedicated grenadier but it could be a new role in the squad. He is the designated anti micro aircraft / breacher / anti hardened cover person on the squad. Some custom air burst munitions would be like a micro anti aircraft battery
the 20mm with a airburst proximity fuse.... It'd be like a man portable flak cannon. Problem is the trajectory of the 20mm would make it hard to wing shoot with, and well.... the 20 mm explosive rounds violate the Geneva laws... So technically it'd be a war crime.
they have much lower velocity than standard twelve gauge, and the pellets lose energy very quickly. Great for dumping lots of shot at short range, but not too great for hitting a loitering drone at greater distances.
You could also try a brake action design that doesn't go down like yours does, but goes to the side left or right, ( when it opens) a shotgun single shot will still shoot sideways giving it a more secure point if you're redesigning the whole thing. Basically what I'm saying just have the barrel swing outward to either the left or the right load it and swing it back to Center again eliminating a weird henchmen point on the front of the gun.
Our experiments at the Clark County Shooting Complex, the largest shooting facility in America, revealed #4 hardened shot out of a 3" 12 gauge was the most effective round against drones. No optic enhancement is needed for shooters with skill.
LOL, flechettes are the crappy idea that just refuses to die. Play with some flechette rounds and you quickly discover they are totally useless because the don't fly straight. They wobble all over the place in flight, which means the patter is MASSIVE and very few of them will actually impact point on. BEFORE you come back to tell me I'm wrong, consider that I have actually built and tested flechette rounds .... have you?
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
“Small arms at Trex arms” I see what you did there
First time 😊
And it's T.Rex Arms. The T is actually for Tennessee.
@@James_Bee than what does the “rex” mean?
The word play in the intro was great
Well, actually. T is for Taco hounds
40mm birdshot would be fuc*in insane. Imagine the pattern
Pieces of something that acts like a birds nest in your fishing tackle
They already make something better. It's a 40mm shell that fires like 10 or 15 rounds of .22 lr all at once.
@@RonnieStanley-tc6vi genius.
@@RonnieStanley-tc6vi dude I've watched tons of drone videos from Ukraine and let me tell you bullets are not enough , a 40mm birdshot would be absolutely perfect , the versatility of grenades you could use is simply unbeatable
@@RonnieStanley-tc6vithats considerably inferior for anti drone shooting xD
Nothing better than open source civil defense.
God bless human engineering.
The bigger gauge gets you more pellets per shell, but not a significant increase in range.
A couple of arduinos and some face tracking software that has been made to track drones with an actuator is all you really need.
@@randymclaughlin7676 - add a rocket motor for range
The way it should be.
The fact that someone is creating real solutions to drone warfare makes me very happy
Drones will dominate the battlefield, aquatic and terrestrial ones are also in development with high efficiency
@@Cormano980 as for aquatic/marine drones, I'd be willing to bet we'd see a resurgence in use of marine mines or similar technologies
tbh this is a last line of defense kind of solution far better solutions are jammers and laser systems that can reach out and destroy drones miles away.
The future of warfare must assuredly be explosive rounds and all guns are basically grenade launchers. Fixes the drone problem. Gets around body armor.
I’m mad he never mentioned the Saiga-12
1750s: Fix bayonets!
2050s: Load your under barrels!
Best comment lol
THE FUTURE IS NOW, OLD MAN!
The hi lo system of 40mm in practicality mimics the use of black powder in terms of recoil and energetics by limiting the amount of charge to something small enough that it isn't dangerous to the user. As he said the end of 10 guage was due to smokeless powder having higher energy density. I suppose you could, in a pinch, bring back black powder specifically for giant tube shotguns. They might even be civilian legal at that point ,since they would be black powder guns and thus not regulated like the KS-23.
Run the Mossy 590A1. Bayonet lug and a 9
8+1 shotgun
2050's you won't make it that far in the future.
Next to dogs and trucks, a shotgun is a man's best friend.
Horses crying
Lol I like it
Where I live, many men have a truck, gun rack with a shotgun and a dog. It’s almost standard and legal in the Red Free State I reside. Nothing new.
The only advantage of bigger bore shotguns is pattern density. From my experience down range energy is a product of muzzle velocity and pellet (projectile) weight.
You Gay? Women, shotguns, and trucks Mans best friends.
M79 40mm shotgun shells comeback is about to be crazy.
I know there have been 40mm grenades made with proximity fuzes. I wouldn't be surprised is they make a resurgence.
37mm bee hive seem anti drone?
I think the same. Kind of a AA gun in 40mm shotgun shells. They all ready have a semi automatic 40mm gun. Imagine that but to shot down drones
@@markniemi3924 shouldnt be hard to take a 37mm with revolving cylinders and strengthen up to handle 6 or 8 gauge cartridge adapters for 3d printed shotgun shells!
The China Lake launcher???
I was a regular Army Air Defence Artillery officer from 2017-2021 and am currently a staff officer in a Combined Arms Brigade in the National Guard. I wrote a "white paper" for my unit to discuss organic solutions to the drone threat. Essentially I was looking at older ideas from a time when we didn't have air superiority and I initially suggested a passive defense of trying not to be seen outright. One SOP I suggested for dismounted soldiers was hiding under a poncho liner as the drone passes to attempt to camouflage yourself visually and by distorting your heat signature. Of course this won't work for very long but might help in a quick pass by.
For active defense I suggested shotguns(if we could get bird shot) or trying to shoot them down with rifles and SAWs. Something is better than nothing and I don't want our soldiers feeling helpless.
Less important in this context was creating a standardized UAS reporting procedure for a BN SOP. That will be huge for our unit but less helpful in a minute man type context.
I deployed with a CRAM unit to Afghanistan in 2020 and we did NOT have a good answer for the drones being used by our enemy. Lots of gadgets and random tech but nothing we had in our hands at the time was very effective at detecting or destroying drones in my opinion.
Honestly knowing what I know I think drone swarms will be to modern warfare what the machine gun was to European armies in 1914. I think we're only getting a taste in the current Ukraine conflict. When I left regular Army ADA in 2021 we did not have a non-classified solution for the drone problem. I know there's some stuff in the works currently but it's a serious threat without a simple and battle tested solution.
Cluster bombs from a shoulder fire weapon.
why isn't there geofencing type anti electronic jamming systems?
Electronic jammers won't work on Fiber Optic cables.@@johnturtle6649
@@johnturtle6649 Jammers are a thing, but there are counters to this too. Wire guided drones using fiber optic cables are now being fielded on the battlefield, and they work even when jamming is present. A reliable hard-kill system is necessary to defeat drones. FPV drones are just the tip of the iceberg too, once AI guided drone swarms become a thing, it'll be exponentially more devastating.
@@EnigmaHood Yeah, this is absolutely true. Drones can also be pre programmed and not need any outside signals.
The downside of those types is that if the battlefield changes their programming can be obsolete or even destructive if they fly into previously non existing structures.
I have been involved with the Norwegian military for most of my life. A few tours to Afghanistan and thereabouts. Learning and teaching asymmetrical warfare doctrine for almost 20 years. I have friends that have gone to Ukraine, some of them have not come back. I have read stories and talked to a lot of Ukrainian soldiers. Drones terrify me and the world is not ready.
When I was in the middle east we had a few CUAS systems I was in charge of. Having talked to friends that also went to Ukraine and have operated, I really hope CUAS capabilities have evolved with drone capabilities the last decade. It's pretty terrifying
It’s no scarier than being on the receiving end of an Apache/cobra/predator
@@johnnybagofdoughnuts4193good thing those things normally don't target individual soldiers.
@ hundreds of hours of Apache gun clips might prove you wrong
Too bad any of them came back. Ukraine is a fascist corrupt country. But that fits into most european countries ideology.
Tungsten flechettes are a great idea; the increased density means they can be smaller, so you get more of them.
Range is a issue too.
Taofledermaus didn’t have much success with flechettes.
Pieces of TIG welding rod if you heat one and up and flatten with a hammer then sharpen the other end..
May cross a circuit too! Kind of a poison pill for the computer parts
Those are too big for the 12GA magnum shot shells and too small for those used in the Huey gunships 2.75 rockets.That leaves the M79 grenade launcher as a prime suspect.I brought a tobacco bag full of the 12GA flachettes home,that I cut from a shot shell in’68 to see what they looked like.
Just for your clarification the CIWS is not throwing up a wall of lead with the hope that the missile will run into it. It uses radar to track the back of its own bullets and uses continuous aim correction to correct its point of aim/point of impact offset for each of the six barrels in realtime. its very much not a spray and pray activity. I am a former CIWS tech for the US Navy.
It's such an awesome piece of machinery. Expensive, but awesome.
Oh, I know that it is extremely precise, but at those ranges, and against those projectiles, not every round lands. That's why the cyclic rates are so high.
o7 thank you for keeping R2D2's hard-on functioning through the years.
"offset for each of the six barrels" - could you elaborate?
What you’re describing is “spray but verify” which is not conceptually that different from what he was describing.
This is quickly becoming my favorite channel. The audio design, the clips used to illustrate a point, the meta. Absolutely phenomenal!!!
DOD will build a $10,000 Mossberg 500😢😢
And it will be finished when the war is over.
More like a $2000 mossberg 500 that will cost $10,000 tax payer dollars and have the remaining $8000 split between D.O.D and the Manufacture or Defense contractor
They already have Mossberg 590s. They will spend 20 million dollars per unit to make automated drones that can shoot the shotguns to shoot down other drones.
@@tsiefhtesso at what point do we just hop into a private lobby, 1v1, quick scoping each other for real life land and resources?
You can only use it overseas
I’ve got a double barrel 10 gauge and plenty of duck shot. Perfect for drones.
But hard on shoulders.
@@Commander_Paul you can always load your own liw recoil ammo
And still throw a shit load of lead down range
This channel actually doesn't miss.
You definitely sound like a young, hip Rod Serling and then three quarters of the way through the vid you say "Imagine if you will". Pure gold! Hope those folks in New Jersey are watching!!
were here haha
Never thought my growing up in Appalachia bird hunting my whole life would come in handy. I’m down for this.
It's a great skill that helps an awful lot. Bird hunting, skeet, & trap teach you to track a moving target regardless of if your ranged weapon is a gun, a bow, or a snowball.
It won't Lmao
@@MrSwccguy it already put food on his table. i'm pretty sure its already come in handy.
@@LUCNUKEM Tons of people in the comments here are naysaying this idea. Most have probably only shot rifles at static targets on flat ranges. Hunting and clay shooting teach you a lot more than just basic marksmanship. Shooting under pressure at an unpredictable moving target, with a limited window of opportunity is an irreplaceble training tool you don't get shooting static on a flat range. Predator and small game hunting has a similar effect with a rifle, as wing shooting with a shotgun
Helps in Ukraine but your a bit right the AI swarms are what we should all be worried about open AI is working on them. I beg you don't you don't pay for chatgpt and run Llama locally
This guy knows his stuff, and has thought about this logically.
Assuming drone swarms do become a threat, shooting at individual drones would be an act of futility. At that point, the priority would become neutralizing nerve centers that control entire swarms, or failing that, something like directed EMPs.
I think drone swarms are going to need to be knocked down with directed energy weapons, but when swarms are directed against individual guys, they probably split up.
Not how EMPs work. They impact large grids, not small electronics disconnected from grids.
Imagine thousands on anti drone weapons on top of utility poles
@@hiramabiff604 Maybe not, but it is exactly how MASERs work. See vids on here of the Epirus Leonidas system knocking out whole swarms in one second.
The shotgun being lauded here will be futile, as others have said.😊
Only another ai controlled swarm can counter a swarm and then its a matter of programming and innovation to get the advantage. Future wars will be swarm attacks that get mostly destroyed but a few get thru to the target then retaliation etc until ai decides to go after the meatsaks controlling the ai😂
We had a drone showing up scoping out our property. It’s still on my property now in several pieces . The old 12 gauge did just great and nobody came to claim it
It's a federal crime to shoot down a drone.
@@smilingscottsman I told an attorney that and his response was , do you think a jury would convict you if that drone was flying around your kids windows ? And remember that jurors are normal people not worthless government officials.
@whitepunch1392 Jurors today are highly vetted to determine if they'll "get the conviction right" as in siding with the with the prosecuter. I've been through the process before and was disqualified because I asked to many questions. The thing you mention here has been illegal for years. Long before drones were ever invented. In fact, I was curious about that very thing and tested the theory of "peeping through windows" at my office. Know what? No matter what I did, I could NOT GET BY THE REFLECTION OF THE DRONE in the windows... No matter how hard I tried... In fact, 3 employees were shocked at my inability to snoop on them as they worked. And yes, they all knew ahead of time what I was going to try to do.
Dont give a fuck lmao@@smilingscottsman
Our constitutional rights trump any federal law
@@smilingscottsman it's a federal crime to operate a drone in certain areas without a FAA license and above private property
1920s americans bringing shotguns to european trenches. 2020, americans bringing shotguns to european trenches.
It's like a poem,.it rhymes.
Fuck off the Ukes started doing it without american help early on
@@BigMakBattleBlog
Without Anerican help now theres the idea of the day
1920's?
🤡@@BigMakBattleBlog
Imagine the world becoming an open world pov post apocalyptic wasteland because of small issues that didn’t need to take it there
There's a shell I've seen online that the Russians are experimenting with for anti drone work, it's a segmented, cylindrical lead slug with all six "pie slices" connected by woven kevlar thread, making a spider web like net. Put it in either a slow twist rifled barrel or put a rifled choke in a regular barrel to make sure the segments spread out and you've essentially made a high velocity net gun for tangling up quad copter rotors, but might also be useful against two legged ground targets as well in an emergency.
Provided you see the drone, those drop load ones are almost impossible to see from up high, also in the night they have thermal so good luck with them
@@Cormano980at night you are hiding in a hidey hole or bunker hopefully
They make 9mm ones like that . Have in America for a few years now
Send it to taofledrmouse
That would definitely distract em ! 😂
In the TV show Sons of Guns, Will Hayden the gunsmith from Lousiana made a 3 barrel rotating electrically powered shotgun/machinegun, a weapon like that could be put on a pickup and then you have a unit of fast and mobile drone hunters.
I always thought a belt fed shot gun type weapon would be good for medium distance drone defense
"Medium distance" for this kind of weapon would be what 300yds at most? What about the drone sitting miles away guiding in a gps guided munition onto your location?
@ you’d use a different weapon system lol? What type of dumbass question was that.
@@cxsey8587 what kind of system would civilians have access to for that kind of range? Medium distance for us is point blank for the military
@ civilians? Small arms fire from rifles. Military has lasers
Thomas Moses Browning was a true genius. A global master of firearms.
John Moses Browning was smarter.
@@mopesrus7266John Browning was the Einstein of gun designers.
John Moses Browning
This would be one application where that Metalstorm concept would work.
oh shit absolutely. that would be a really neat underbarrel attachment too
More capacity as an over-barrel and acts as a sight riser too. Not sure how that would affect recoil, tho.
Whatever happened to that system it's like it felt from the face of the planet that thing could totally annihilate drones
Imagine having that system connected to a radar shooting 12 gauge magnum birdshots at drones it would utterly annihilate any commercial drone in no time , you could strap that baby on pretty much any vehicle and eliminate the drone threat
I thought of this too. Sadly, Metalstorm went bankrupt. The irony is that China continued to develop the system (after the inventor claimed to decline an offer of 100 million by China), and is now fielding it on their ships as an anti-hypersonic defense CIWS, according to a report I read recently.
Excellent work and analysis here, Isaac!
More than ten years ago, I built a ‘zombie gun’ for ‘plinking’ out of a $200 Winchester SXP (Shadow) and $105 Nordic mag tube extension. It now holds 11+1, 2 3/4” 12ga shells, and 9+1 3” shells. It can get heavy, but even with the pump, it can throw a lot of lead into the air, very quickly. The funny part is that I never imagined it would be anything but a toy. Now, it’s perfectly set up as an anti-drone weapon!
Having shot many flechette rounds, I wouldn't recommend them, look at TSS shot. I like your under barrel idea, but would suggest you hinge the barrel sideways like the HK269 under barrel grenade launcher. Hinging the barrel sideways clears its chamber from rifle magazine interference. Stick with 3 inch 12 gauge with say number 6 size tungsten shot and modified choke.
Mossberg 940 Pro Waterfowl Snow Goose, 12+1 from the factory. Loaded with TSS
That was my thought as well. TSS will have far more energy at 60 metres than the flechettes. I think you are right on the #6 size shot. I wouldn’t go any smaller. Maybe go up to #5 or #4 max. You want good energy down range but a good dense spread as well. I hear guys, who don’t do any type of clay shooting sports or bird hunting, say we “need double 00 buckshot”.
That’s all they know from experts talking about personal defence. I try and educate them that 00 buckshot is good for hunting deer and stopping humans. But they don’t understand the dynamics of hitting flying objects.
The Norm McDonald of drone warfare. Thanks for the info, sir!
Fun fact, the KS-23 also works very well against LEGS
Absolutely.
watch out for the ankle biting crawler revenge
Fun fact every gun works for killing and thats real life
Yes! First Tarkov ref. Score.
@lukasBe77 CHALLENGE: I won't press charges or fight back if you try to kill me with 2mm kolibri
The universe must have sneezed, with you and Forgotten Weapons both releasing fairly technical videos on shotguns the same day…
I used a BPS (Browning Pump Shotgun) in 10 ga. in the early 2000’s for Goose Hunting.They are 3-1/2” in length. There are now 12ga. shells in the 3-1/2” length.They’re longer to hold more powder and shot which creates more felt recoil.
Get yourself a 28" semi automatic 12 gauge with an extension for 12 round capacity.
Make sure the mags are top qual. Never skimp out cause those cheap springs won't feed well when you need it most.
Then use shorty shells
Choke tube
@@UtubeH8trkeep it tube fed and learn to double reload
I got two of them vintage bad boys with 11 rds capacity is good enough for me and not that heavy either equiped with fiberoptic front sights for my old aging eyes !!!
If the Metal Storm MAUL was still around, i believe it would be a great platform for this line of development. increase the gauge to something around 10-6 gauge and you get semi-auto system with easy to carry and swap preloaded barrels for different uses. you could carry it loaded with No.4 tungsten buckshot for general purpose and additional tubes for slugs, breaching rounds, tungsten flechette, 000 buckshot, or anything else you could really need.
I also believe that instead of arrow flechettes of the older styles, you could easily design more "pin" or finish nail shaped projectiles that could be more easily manufactured en masse (or just buy over the counter for handloads) and be able to fit more into a shell without the need to flip half of the projectiles backwards and relaying on air resistance to reorient them in flight.
The problem with "pin" flechets is that they don't fly straight. They tumble and shed velocity quickly.
On the subject of getting more projectiles into the air, there is "cubic" shot. It's cube shaped with rounded corners. Allows more shot to be packed into the shot cup. Winchester uses it in their Blind Side ammo. They designed the shot cup to not sepearte from the shot too quickly, since square shot has a wider spread and sheds velocity quicker then round shot. Having a wider spread after a certain distance, and more pellets in each shell is what Winchester designed Blind Side for.
Really great idea putting a single shot shotgun under the barrel of an AR! When I bird hunt, I prefer non-reciprocating shotguns for lower weight, no game warden issues, and longer barrels. The last one means I bring home more birds because I can take a second to line the shot up. IME, I hit fewer birds with pumps and autos.
Barrel length is important for pattern entropy and projectile speed, but yeah, you need a separate weapon. With all your mentions of the 19th century shotguns, I wondered why you didn’t mention the KelTec KSG25 with it’s 30.5” barrel in an overall length of 38” which is slightly less than average for a shotgun. It’s not what someone would want for home defense, and I can imagine what a game warden would want to see. It’s also more than 15 lbs loaded, but 21 3” shells or 25 regular shells that could get hurt a drone at 100 yards with off the shelf 12 ga seems not to be a bad idea. There’s also that not so wonderful Keltec reliability, and they really should supply a tube of Vibratite with every weapon- but that’s enough musing.
Both 12ga 3½" Magnum and 10ga 3½" Magnum are already great for Drone destruction using Hevi-shot or Bismuth. I have a Browning BPS 10ga 3½" Magnum with 30" vent rib barrel with Undertaker choke and Briley magazine extension tube. My favorite is My Browning A-5 12ga 3" 28" Modified choke vent rib and Briley magazine extension for a total capacity of 11 rounds of 2¾" shell's. These shotguns are almost perfect for Anti-Drone Defense.
Mossberg 940 Pro Waterfowl Snow Goose, 12+1 from the factory. Loaded with TSS
@wallyzworld7108 I've been lusting after the 940 Pro for a while now. I already bought the Lancer Carbon Fiber+6 magazine extension for it.
Maybe time to dust off the old 870 supermag
Guys- you're way overthinking this. 7 ½ shot for clays will work just fine for any drone reasonably close. If it's farther than that and moving, most guys couldn't hit it and I have other things to worry about. I have a commercial drone and it wouldn't take much to knock it out.
Use 2 carbon fiber 12 gauge barrels straddling below the ar barrel rather than a single larger gauge. 12 guage is available to the masses now and the 2 barrel setup makes a nice flat bottom on the handguard. Both fire simultaneously of course (not sure if volley is legal or not).
Shotguns would work like skeet shooting or possibly carry 3 small drone to intercept the larger drone that's trying to kill you; you only need to destroy 1 blade if it's a quadracopter so the interceptor drone could be very small.
Love this project. I would purchase one.
I have been thinking of this exact thing for the past week except with a bullpup and a tubular magazine instead. Haven't drawn anything I'm just thinking of how it would work.
I didn't think having anything bigger than a 12 gauge would be worth the added weight but I now understand your argument for a bigger gauge and also agree.
This comment is to highlight the man's beautifully dry comedic timing. I love it.
Excellent education wrapped in a delicious presentation. Well done team
I own an original Winchester Model 1887 lever action black powder shotgun. It has a rolled steel barrel (damascus wa s available also). It was designed to be used with full length brass shells 2 7/8" at the time. 3 1/2" magnums were not available until around 1930. I actually took it goose hunting once and ended up bagging a quail. I really wish I knew the history of this gun. After all, it is from the wild West.
there was an interesting HK project called CAWS, it was an attempt to redesign shotgun ammo with a rimless all metal shell with tungsten buckshot and high pressure ammo
And one more thing is a dedicated shotgunner, he can have various rounds for not only his self-defense but Close Quarters combat but also aerial defense and just have people in your team that are dedicated shotgunners for taking care of those things trained to do it as well.
I think youre absolutely right about the caliber upgrade. Im part of a larger CAD community and, if youre willing to open-source that Under-barrel design, we could have it in open-beta in no time flat. We actually have an adamant 26.5 enthusiast on board whom I am sure would fall in love with this project.
How does one get into CAD? I'm curious myself, but it does seem daunting to get into
How does one get into CAD? I'm curious myself, but it does seem daunting to get into
@@georgewhitworth9742 Im definitely the noob, and I dont know that this is good advice, but I started working backwards. I got a printer, started playing with settings in the slicer and then modifying other peoples files with primitives. That is also not the most efficient way to modify or build things, but it allowed me to take very small steps. Orca slicer is about as useful as TinkerCAD as far as I can tell. Plus, you know, it slices. There are other ways to start but this got me goin.
you could use a beretta 1301. it's 6 pounds, simple and fast. load tungsten magnum rounds and you are set. it's a valuable alternative and you can carry it next to a standard AR somewhat "easily"
26.5mm is readily available, a hi-low cartridge allows for thin wall barrels and chambers.
T-shirts work against small drones, just throw it
Taking the magnetron and transformer from an old microwave and fixing it to a dish can smoke a bigger drone & leave no marks. Just spend some time adjusting the mounting position for focus. I'm not saying I did this, but, if I did I would focus it narrow and mount an optic, for distance.
way back in the 70's a couple of us buddies reloaded 12ga with small lead weights connected on each end of short lines/wires
I’ve been thinking about round 00Buck sized fishing sinkers, joined by Heavy Fishing line or Wire Trace. You know Tracer Shells?
Multipurpose still does 00 Buck jobs, with a cutting action between pellets?
I’ve tried both 00 Buck and two musketeers balls. They held together and the musket balls Penetrated into a hollow log.
How did that work out?
@@paultull7406 it worked but not very reliable. we were using lead spit-shot, it seamed not to be able to remain connected. however i think if we had a better crimping device with steel shot it would have been much more successful.
@@paultull7406 another problem we had was preventing the strand from being inter-twined gother into a blob.. perhaps a paper divider between each layer might help..certainly something to play with.
@@sierramtnswest That’s a Good idea. Also the heavier thicker line and wire are more springy and might not tangle as much. It’s a trial and error thing. That you’d have to shoot onto paper to tell?
The flare gun pistols have been around for a while, in varying calibers, from 12 Guage to 1.5 inches (40mm). It would be lighter and less awkward to carry than a long barrel shotgun.
Excellent video, Trex Labs never bores
I think that casting a net of sorts or anything that can get caught up in the props would be really effective as well. When they are grounded, they can be detained for ransom or dismantled for intel.
I actually disagree with this approach entirely. If anything, you would want to be going smaller and lighter rather than larger. It's certainly not a "no-brainer" because recoil impulse is a huge factor in terms of follow-up shots, and pattern density and individual shot energy should be the key performance metrics that you should be focused on. TSS is as big of an innovation for shotguns as smokeless powder, and the result is thicker pattern density with higher shot energy in smaller shot shells with less recoil.
So the questions we need to ask are: What is the required pattern density to hit a drone? (For waterfowl, the rule of thumb is at least 100 pellets in a 30" circle, or roughly 1 pellet per square inch.) And what is the smallest pellet possible that still carries the energy required to take down that drone?
With the current crop of small drones, #7-#8 TSS moving at 1400 fps is probably more than enough out to 60 or 70 yards, and with 200-300 pellets per 12 gauge shot shell, it should have plenty of pattern density. In fact, there's an argument that it might be better to go with 20 or even 28 gauge, where putting two rounds on target might be better than a single, larger shot that's harder to recover from.
Larger drones require less pattern density and larger shot (kind of like geese versus ducks), and using 1.25 to 1.5 ounce loads of #4 TSS not only provide sufficient pattern density for larger drones, they are also effective anti-personnel rounds.
Thank you for bringing this up, I was thinking this from the very beginning of the video.
Is a bit of an issue when the robotic bird moves more akin to a bee on cocaine. You will want to cover as much area as possible cus the little fucker WILL move out of your position at a random place, and you better pray the dispersion hits it or the bullets arrive on time.
@@sirnikkel6746 I take it that you've never hunted small birds. They are still faster and more maneuverable (possibly more erratic?) than modern drones. It seems counterintuitive, but bigger isn't necessarily better when it comes to hitting small, aerial targets. That's why many waterfowl hunters have ditched 12 gauges for 20 and even 28 gauges. Dispersion doesn't work because you still need adequate pattern density (1,000 pellets in a 10' circle is completely worthless), so it's far better to have a dense pattern within a reasonable area while also having the ability to make a quick, accurate follow-up shot.
@@newscoulomb3705 I have, but my broke ass and restrictive country wouldn't allow me to get more than one of those cheap ass 4.5mm Gamo rifles.
And even then I only could hit em while they were standing still.
So, true that I don't have any idea how it works with shotguns and with the fellas on the fly.
So, that means that a 16, 20 or even 24 gauge shotgun CIWS esque gun would work wonders against drone swarms?
@@sirnikkel6746 Yeah. Shotgun hunting is a whole thing. Just a layperson's experience from 35+ years of hunting. So I'm far from an expert, but there are some guys who do amazing (analytic and scientific) videos on shotgun ballistics. "Surviving Duck Season" and "The New Hunters Guide" both have some detailed breakdowns of shotgun ballistics.
In the powerhouses prior to performing coal fired boiler, we would use 10&12 gauge shotguns to remove hanging slag formations so they were not falling from the ceiling. Double O buckshot usually worked in the corners, boiler tubes are not damaged by lead pellets.
I just can't get over how this guy sounds like Norm Macdonald...
I think Norm had a bit more timber in his voice but really close.
@@knowahnosenothing4862 Agreed.
1887 Winchester was 12ga. 1901 was 10ga. Reworked to handle smokeless powder. Lever was slightly different and other subtle changes. (Without touching on mods to the movie prop).
Sadly, every slow-motion video I've seen analyzing that style of flechettes indicate that those fins are woefully inadequate for stabilizing them.
Great video discussion and ideas. 1969 Australia.105 mm fleshette round fired at flat wooden targets at ranges varying from 25 yards out to 300 yards. Ignoring targets knocked flat (up to 75 yards, ) about half the one inch fleshette penetrations in the plywood targets were sideways or substantially sideways oriented so I agree the fins are not that effective ballistically. In theory, miniature replicas of entubed projectiles fitted with spring fins might work for a cluster round. If I can drop a magpie at about 50 metres (not flying too fast admittedly) with a .177 (4.5mm) air rifle, I think I can cope with a nuisance drone within 50m that's not flying to fast (with minimal noise and good deniability if somebody gets upset at their precious toy's unexplained loss of stability and subsequent destruction when it falls on a roof or hard ground.)
Longer projectiles having more dwell time in these rotor wash makes sense, but also flechettes pierce instead of bouncing off. I wonder how well drone rotors work when burdened with pins sticking out of the underside, or worse catching inside the rotary mechanism.
The rotors are very light and fragile. If a bullet or any type of shot hits them the rotors will shatter.
@purdysanchez civilian stuff yes but I imagine the military is using titanium derivatives that resist shock and deformation.
@@nobodyspecial1852, hypothetically they could try to build what you're describing, but publicly no such thing appears to exist.
@@purdysanchez it's odd that it hasn't caught on, especially in cooler areas where fragility of rotors is magnified. 🤷♂️
The TOW like wired drones are on another level
Heard that the Russians are using a lot of it in Kursk and electronic jammers ain't doing anything against it.
Fibrotic cable is pretty light. Makes the drone unjammable but now the range is less… would be fun to grab the fiber and swing the drone around by it then into a tree…
The newer TOWs are IR guided. The company that made the wire went out of business decades ago...because the US wasn't buying enough missiles😂
@ I am aware the tow is more like a TOI pretty much but most are in aware
@@xxxlonewolf49 Yeah they went for the tag, shoot and scoot weaponry.
Yes, my main "Home Defense Firearm" is my 12 gauge shot-gun and my back-up firearm for "Home Defense" is my 9mm Beretta 92 pistol. I've read and seen many police video reports that stated only 3-5 rounds where fired so, I have a Stoger double barrel break-open Coach Gun with extra rounds attached to the stock and while my Beretta holds 17 in the clip I only keep 15 loaded (none in the pipe). Against a swarm of 10 or even 20 drones about 2-3 feet in size (flying in close formation) then some #8 bird-shot would likely be the best round as you want to damage or disable as many as possible. If its just 1 or 2 then even in a close formation your odds of hitting one of them is less than a swarm of them so your going to have to be accurate! You might be better off with a Pistol Caliber Carbine on automatic fire and 100 round drum. I've seen a homemade 12 gauge that was fully automatic and a had a 25'ish round clip, it had an extremely short barrel and was shaped like an old school MAC 10. If you think about it some sort of exploding round would be good to but #8 bird-shot has a lot of pellets and if you had a semi auto with a 10 round clip you could wreak a swarm of drones! Again.... they would need to be flying in a close formation and not do a lot of maneuvering for you to be effective but I think at close formation it would be a bad idea to start looping a spinning as you'd likely hit your wing-man!
Funny, Forgotten Weapons just released a video on semi-auto shotguns. Maybe the threat of drones will force some innovation in the shotgun space. Now, a rimless shotgun shell for use with vertical stack box magazines would be dope. However, from my minimal understanding of firearms, belt-fed machine guns work fine with rimmed cartridges. I'll say it - a belt-fed machine shotgun! I want it and I want it now! :)
Or a good quality drum mag, like for the AA12.
@@d3ltaohniner261 only if you are professional Russian 👍
We already have it and it's called the Sagia 12.
@@2fathomsdeeper no, it's *Saiga, and I'd 100% rather have the AA12 with its super controllable recoil and drum mag.
@@d3ltaohniner261 And that leaves you trying to find the only 2 in existence. At least the Saiga isn't vaporware!
My grandpa's 10 gauge 42inch barrel shotgun brought down several geese at same time that were flying together at higher altitude than modern cívilian drones operate.
The rail integrated shotgun is pretty cool.
Great content, as always, Isaac. Winchester wanted a lever shotgun, because they were a lever action company. James Cameron wanted a lever action shotgun because a pump action is nearly impossible to run on a bike. A lever action isn’t much better but hey, it’s James Cameron. He worked out a way for a suburban housewife to effectively take out 7-10 armed terrorists with a MAC-10 after her inability to manage recoil results in her dropping the open bolt smg down a small flight of stairs. Hey, I’ll buy that. If you’ve ever been in the vicinity of a first time shooter with a MAC-10, you know recoil management, is the focus of whoever put that weapon in their hand. Hollywood rarely gets it right when portraying firearm use of any kind. Hence the “Hollywood quiet” reference, regarding suppressor performance. When they do get it right, like the Val Kilmer/Heat reload or Keanu Reeves training like a pro for the Wick franchise, we love it. Schwarzenegger’s one hand rotation to cycle a sawed off lever action 10 gauge is a perfect example of completely unrealistic. However, to my 12 year old eyes, when I first saw the movie…it was the coolest thing I’d ever seen. So cool, I attempted it with a daisy lever action on a dirt bike. Yes, it was stupid and unsuccessful and I almost crashed into a tree. But without those action movies, I would have never become a firearms enthusiast and a 2A advocate in constant contact with my local representatives. Without that ridiculous attempt with a BB gun on my XR80, I may not have ended up the strict firearms safety guy that you’re relieved to see in the lane next to you at the range. So Holllywood may not be so bad after all.
Of course I’m kidding, they’re terrible.
I was thinking about this the other day when I saw a man taking out an explosive drone with a shotgun. Where did Metalstorm go? Remember the electrically launched caseless ammo box? Something like this on a tracking mount may be the ticket for dealing with drone swarms.
Metalstorm is VERY SLOW to reload. It would be easy to overwhelm and destroy by a mass drone attack.
An insightful presentation. Loved the Eldorado clip!
With the advent of cheaper and more energy efficient smart optics on rifles the XM25 projekt would be worth revisiting. I think you can easily reduce the bulk of the XM25 and make it a viable, Squad Anti Drone Weapon.
I've already thought about it yea It makes sense
Back in the Vietnam War era the US Army had the 40mm M79 grenade launcher. Two of the many available ammo types were shot pellets and flechettes. Add those to the ammo mix for the 40mms currently on armored vehicles, possibly along with radar control, plus delayed bursting charges for longer range, and you have a fairly cheap counter measure.
Challenge: Trex Arms needs to build a working China Lake. You know you want to.
I really enjoyed your video and I don't want to distract from the video or split hairs on it's details but for historical accuracy the Terminators black powder shotgun would have been a sawed off 1887 lever action shotgun in 12 gauge. in 1901 Winchester introduced the 10 gauge version of the same gun but was able to shoot modern smokeless powder. This shotgun truly is a lot of fun to shoot!
Make the underside shotgun barrel pivot left instead of pivoting down, easier to see and reload quicker. Go the way of the m320.
Easier to reload, harder to manufacture.
@@isaacbotkintrex If you watch a couple of drone videos you will understand how important reloading is
Also clears the magazine which the down loading version doesn't seem to take into account
I like the idea of more shells rather than bigger ones. A M1014 with 7 (9 ghost loaded) has decent recoil and allows you to recover quickly from misses or address multiple threats.
@trex labs, i definitely see your reasoning behind the single barrel attachment design, but with having shot at least 2,000 rounds of 12ga in trap and skeet, a second or even third shot would go a long way. Its challenging enough to hit a target that travels about the same speed and angles with lots of practice, but a drone that can change speed and direction quickly and without notice will leave you missing more shots then at the range. I appreciate your efforts to find something new, but i think the anwer lies in a dedicated platform. The hardest part of shooting a moving target is knowing how far to lead/aim. A sighting device that keeps you from shooting at the wrong time would be very helpful but of course very complex. I think in the case of using a shotgun for drone defense, you're going to need a ton of practice to keep the device simple, or a very expensive complicated system.
I've been a huge proponent of introducing something like the south African handheld 20mm cannon mixed with advanced fire control to revive the musket as the main fighting weapon for ground forces. Against infantry, an airburst or impact detonating shell is more effective as supression and inflicting casualties, and with shotshells you are more effective at fighting troops moving from cover to cover. Against drones air burst shells will be better at range, and shotshells will be better up close.
Wait… trex arms… you focus on small arms… this entirely changes the way I see the name of the company.
😂😂
It's a "small arms company" lol
I remember when one day it just clicked for me too.
Rotate the whole mechanism 45 degrees clockwise (as viewed from the breach). Position is still useful to be fired using the supporting hand (assuming a right-handed shooter), better clearance for loading, and you would again be able to break open the rifle by pulling only one takedown pin.
Shout out to whoever placed the suppressors and stuff, what a beautifully composed shot.
Been saying this for the last 2 years. Semi-auto shotgun is perfect for fpv drones. They could also be built into a fast delta wing drone to destroy high altitude recon drones. For a swarm a gatling type multi-barrel weapon can be mounted on vehicles.
This is the best channel on youtube to date.
Excellent video. Just wanted to point out that the comment about not being able to tilt an AR upper and receiver apart with the under barrel attachments for disassembly is not a problem. All you have to do is pull both front and rear assembly pins, and retract the lower away from the upper in a rearward direction.
What about drones WITH shotguns?
Not stable. Physics would mean the drone would get knocked back with same force
You beat that with paper.
@kinvert 🤣🤣🤣 that got me
Nobody talks about the fact that Gyrojets are the ideal weapons for drones. Extremely lightweight, nearly no recoil, and the acceleration distance isn't an issue on a drone
@@8urfacehow about recoilless shotguns then? Or even recoilless autocannons? Basically, what I mean is you take something like Andruil's roadrunner, and instead of a warhead attach a revolver 30mm recoilless autocannon with proximity fused rounds. And said cannon can be made quite light: use carbon fiber wrapped titanium barrel and a jet nozzle (for the recoilless part). Revolver may have only 6-10 rounds, but the idea is to get closer to the target for the increased probability of hitting it, obviously targeting and shooting is done by a computer and the thing operates just as a SAM, that shoots its payload and diverts at the last moment.
When I was a kid growing up in Maine, we had something that was called a goose gun. It was a 10 gauge shotgun with a really long barrel. That would probably work good for the drones.
An interesting thing to add to the conversation is 37mm devices, they exist in underbarrel, thumper style, basically any configuration a 40mm has been designed in is also available in 37mm. the distinction is that 37mm is civilian legal and accessible. they are limited to use as signaling devices. but I could see a round similar to chafe being considered a signaling round and being effective against drones via tangling propellers.
37mm grenade launchers are smooth barrel, 40mm is rifled barrel.
A cloud of hot angry metal shards is quite arguably a signal .
Dumb take
As someone around drones all the time and watching the different methods, a shotgun is by far the cheapest most reliable method to stop a drone. Being able to detect drones before they get close so you have the time to react is the first challenge that needs to be addressed.
Automatic shotguns need to be part of every platoon.
You don't have to blow the drone out of the sky like a bird. Just hitting props brings them down fast.
Bring back the OICW!!!
In all seriousness though, if you get the round right you can have a family of arms. The OICW with the over barrel mag fed 20mm converted to work with modern optics and a round that has shotty options would still not be as good as a 40mm dedicated grenadier but it could be a new role in the squad. He is the designated anti micro aircraft / breacher / anti hardened cover person on the squad. Some custom air burst munitions would be like a micro anti aircraft battery
the 20mm with a airburst proximity fuse.... It'd be like a man portable flak cannon. Problem is the trajectory of the 20mm would make it hard to wing shoot with, and well.... the 20 mm explosive rounds violate the Geneva laws... So technically it'd be a war crime.
If it could swing out sideways would be much easier I think.. and add a small capacity magazine too...
A very good idea.. From the side. I wonder if you can have a extra few pre-loaded...🤔
40mm shotgun shells exist. M576 Cartridge, 40mm
they have much lower velocity than standard twelve gauge, and the pellets lose energy very quickly. Great for dumping lots of shot at short range, but not too great for hitting a loitering drone at greater distances.
2:14 or are birds just robots?
About 20 years ago my neighbor built an air compressor powered automatic BB gun. Little did I know the genius of it
Literally filming a video in this right now lol. Great minds think alike
High praise here - Its good to see the "pros" comparing notes.
You could also try a brake action design that doesn't go down like yours does,
but goes to the side left or right,
( when it opens)
a shotgun single shot will still shoot sideways giving it a more secure point if you're redesigning the whole thing.
Basically what I'm saying just have the barrel swing outward to either the left or the right load it and swing it back to Center again eliminating a weird henchmen point on the front of the gun.
We need civilian CROWS for pickup trucks
I like to get my headaches the old fashioned way, from booze.
CROW system is garbage on vehicles also what hateferlife said 😂 facts
CROWS sucks. MK49 ROSAM and MK50 Protector is where it’s at
Our experiments at the Clark County Shooting Complex, the largest shooting facility in America, revealed #4 hardened shot out of a 3" 12 gauge was the most effective round against drones. No optic enhancement is needed for shooters with skill.
LOL, flechettes are the crappy idea that just refuses to die.
Play with some flechette rounds and you quickly discover they are totally useless because the don't fly straight. They wobble all over the place in flight, which means the patter is MASSIVE and very few of them will actually impact point on.
BEFORE you come back to tell me I'm wrong, consider that I have actually built and tested flechette rounds .... have you?
The wobbling and massive pattern are actually a plus in this instance... Chill
@@turdferguson2863 No, they aren't. You'd understand that if you ever actually saw the results in person.
That integrated break action would be better with a tube full of electrically activated rounds so that you could get quick semi auto fire.
Robot bird is an oxymoron, birds aren't real
When does the season open and what is the bag limit ?
All good information but I’m pretty sure the model 1887 was made in 1887 not 1871 just a small gripe