Brothers Dan Borvan and Chris Gordon, I just listened to this follow-up podcast. I imagine that a lot of people following this debate don't know the history of the debates on Federal Vision. And most people in the pew who are not in the URCNA, probably won't read the URCNA papers, even if they should. I've read the URCNA papers as well as various books by the various players over 15 years. I don't have much to say other than a hearty "amen" to not exalting tribe over truth. If this debate is over pastoral style, suffice it to say, that I am seeing sinners repent of their sins and find the Savior throughout the CREC denomination. Even among the Apostles, there were differences in pastoral tone & style. Again, I give a hearty "amen" to exalting the truth and the glory of Jesus Christ over tribe. If there are future ecclesiastical issues that arise on an ecclesiastical level, my pastoral recommendation is that the classes of the URCNA and the presbyteries of the CREC work together on some of these issues. The URCNA has a great system of fraternal delegation that can be employed to these ends, without necessarily compromising consciences along the way. May God bless you richly and fill Escondido California with the knowledge and love of the Lord, just as the gospel is bearing fruit and increasing throughout the world.
What people think of your debate with Wilson depends massively on their preconceived notions of who Wilson is. People who have looked past all the scandals and errors to still exalt him will think you persecuted him. People who think he's the devil incarnate will think you didn't attack him nearly enough. But people who think there are serious issues at stake (the Gospel and the mission of the Church) will appreciate that you really tried to show people these are not issues to be careless about and fly through on instinct, like unreasoning animals (Jude 10).
Where does one look for these church court documents?
Місяць тому
You did a great job. It is difficult to deal with a false teacher that is is deceptive and lies to you and still keep a gentle spirit with him. You did that with not just one, but two false teachers.
I actually think Chris did fine. Sorry, but Doug Wilson is slippery and inconsistent. That interview confirmed that he just shoots from the hip. I think we took Christian absolutes for granted in society. Unfortunately, pagan passions are the order of the day.
@@παρεπίδημος I don't even know what it is man. Every time its explained and I see Doug's responses to it he says that's not what he believes. I take him at his word.
Doug and Moscow are doing a great job on spreading the gospel and building a strong Christian community. It is obviously ok to disagree with them on issues. But you sometimes act like people who like what Doug does aren't deep biblical thinkers, like you guys are. I would disagree with that.
It took 20 years for the convo with DW to happen. If you feel so strongly about it. Bring him before your church government. He will show. Love that you both are jacked. Great example. Podcasts are are we have left. Rather than being hidden behind the motions of church order.
This is a discussion/conversation. Your meet up with DW was more of an interrogation/inquisition. Actually surprised at the patience and grace DW afforded the host as the host's attitude was confrontational, aggressive and elitist. I imagine DW also had a lot of pent up frustration, but he ended up being much more charitable.
That wasn’t even close to a “serrated” edge nor did it come close to Cash’s fingerbone. This has been a surprising response from the tough guy, CN “fighters” complaining about someone being too strong who actually sat down with someone with whom they disagree to get in their face a bit. “Man” up.
@@AboundingGraceRadio I found Cash's fingerbone directed at the pagan world. I am sorry you took exception and felt lumped in with the world. The point was, there was less conversation/dialogue of equals but more of a sanctimonious lecturing of a superior. These are more observations, not hurt feelings. I grant you are right, I am not the "tough guy" you are stereotyping. I also pray for your ministries great success in glorifying God and furthering His kingdom. I did find the conversation interesting and enlightening. I would be interested on your take of Megan Basham's expose of folks closer to your persuasion.
One would have to first be regenerate in order to be disciplined 😂 this is the thinking of most American evangelicals, let’s just forget about being born from above and just start making disciples like Mormons
@@AboundingGraceRadio Certainly, it all "begins" at conversion. However, your Co-Host started with, "What is the ultimate goal," (listen to minute 11:28) and the focus should not be solely on conversion but on discipleship. A common issue I observe among many Evangelicals is a short-sighted "goal" rather than long-term thinking. This is a significant problem within Dispensational Theology. While I am unaware of your eschatological views, my point remains that Christians are weary of the passive-aggressive approach to evangelism often associated to a liberal method. I'm not advocating for the opposite extreme either; however, we should recognize that Christ is King now and strive to reconstruct our societies similar to the methods of the early church.
Brothers Dan Borvan and Chris Gordon, I just listened to this follow-up podcast. I imagine that a lot of people following this debate don't know the history of the debates on Federal Vision. And most people in the pew who are not in the URCNA, probably won't read the URCNA papers, even if they should. I've read the URCNA papers as well as various books by the various players over 15 years. I don't have much to say other than a hearty "amen" to not exalting tribe over truth. If this debate is over pastoral style, suffice it to say, that I am seeing sinners repent of their sins and find the Savior throughout the CREC denomination. Even among the Apostles, there were differences in pastoral tone & style. Again, I give a hearty "amen" to exalting the truth and the glory of Jesus Christ over tribe. If there are future ecclesiastical issues that arise on an ecclesiastical level, my pastoral recommendation is that the classes of the URCNA and the presbyteries of the CREC work together on some of these issues. The URCNA has a great system of fraternal delegation that can be employed to these ends, without necessarily compromising consciences along the way. May God bless you richly and fill Escondido California with the knowledge and love of the Lord, just as the gospel is bearing fruit and increasing throughout the world.
You did a fine job with Doug Wilson. Informative and with the right tone.
Chris, what is the Perkins book you mentioned a couple of times in this episode?
Dan's the man!
The strategy of muddying statements to constantly avoid being called a heretic... seems to be working for Doug. To me.
Heresy is not judged against the Creed, but against scripture. If the sola fide of scripture being violated isn't enough to cry heresy...
What people think of your debate with Wilson depends massively on their preconceived notions of who Wilson is. People who have looked past all the scandals and errors to still exalt him will think you persecuted him. People who think he's the devil incarnate will think you didn't attack him nearly enough. But people who think there are serious issues at stake (the Gospel and the mission of the Church) will appreciate that you really tried to show people these are not issues to be careless about and fly through on instinct, like unreasoning animals (Jude 10).
Where does one look for these church court documents?
You did a great job. It is difficult to deal with a false teacher that is is deceptive and lies to you and still keep a gentle spirit with him. You did that with not just one, but two false teachers.
I actually think Chris did fine. Sorry, but Doug Wilson is slippery and inconsistent. That interview confirmed that he just shoots from the hip.
I think we took Christian absolutes for granted in society. Unfortunately, pagan passions are the order of the day.
There's nothing wrong with Doug Wilson.
@johnfreeman9766 you don’t see a problem with Federal Vision?
@@παρεπίδημος I don't even know what it is man. Every time its explained and I see Doug's responses to it he says that's not what he believes. I take him at his word.
Doug and Moscow are doing a great job on spreading the gospel and building a strong Christian community. It is obviously ok to disagree with them on issues. But you sometimes act like people who like what Doug does aren't deep biblical thinkers, like you guys are. I would disagree with that.
It took 20 years for the convo with DW to happen. If you feel so strongly about it. Bring him before your church government. He will show. Love that you both are jacked. Great example. Podcasts are are we have left. Rather than being hidden behind the motions of church order.
His theology has already been condemned by every confessionally Reformed body in the United States.
This is a discussion/conversation. Your meet up with DW was more of an interrogation/inquisition. Actually surprised at the patience and grace DW afforded the host as the host's attitude was confrontational, aggressive and elitist. I imagine DW also had a lot of pent up frustration, but he ended up being much more charitable.
That wasn’t even close to a “serrated” edge nor did it come close to Cash’s fingerbone. This has been a surprising response from the tough guy, CN “fighters” complaining about someone being too strong who actually sat down with someone with whom they disagree to get in their face a bit. “Man” up.
@@AboundingGraceRadio I found Cash's fingerbone directed at the pagan world. I am sorry you took exception and felt lumped in with the world. The point was, there was less conversation/dialogue of equals but more of a sanctimonious lecturing of a superior. These are more observations, not hurt feelings. I grant you are right, I am not the "tough guy" you are stereotyping. I also pray for your ministries great success in glorifying God and furthering His kingdom. I did find the conversation interesting and enlightening. I would be interested on your take of Megan Basham's expose of folks closer to your persuasion.
The comments from the DW video are bland. You need normal thickness of skin to get through them.
No sir, the goal is not conversion..the goal is disciple making.
How in the world do you have a disciple apart from conversion? That’s where it begins.
One would have to first be regenerate in order to be disciplined 😂 this is the thinking of most American evangelicals, let’s just forget about being born from above and just start making disciples like Mormons
@@AboundingGraceRadio Certainly, it all "begins" at conversion. However, your Co-Host started with, "What is the ultimate goal," (listen to minute 11:28) and the focus should not be solely on conversion but on discipleship. A common issue I observe among many Evangelicals is a short-sighted "goal" rather than long-term thinking. This is a significant problem within Dispensational Theology. While I am unaware of your eschatological views, my point remains that Christians are weary of the passive-aggressive approach to evangelism often associated to a liberal method. I'm not advocating for the opposite extreme either; however, we should recognize that Christ is King now and strive to reconstruct our societies similar to the methods of the early church.