Thanks for watching everyone! A projectile tier list has been heavily requested and I figured something more specific like this might be interesting, what did you think? There are a couple moves I'm seeing pop up in the comments a lot, mostly the ones I expected, so here's some more detail on them: *-Mii Gunner's Stealth Burst:* This move should have been included, I made a mistake. I loosened the criteria after initially compiling the list, which added Zelda's Din's Fire, and Stealth Burst should have been added at the same time. I'd place Stealth Burst in B tier, on most characters' kits it'd probably be in C tier because of the lag but Mii Gunner has so many persistent walling tools to help set it up. *-Sephiroth's Flare:* I've seen a lot of applications for that move listed, most of which I agree with (these videos can't cover every use case of every move). However, a lot of them are very specific, and also directly competing with something else in Sephiroth's kit. One thing I do while researching these videos is comb through a lot of high level tournament footage, and in those situations (which this list is based on), Sephiroth's [Mega/Giga]Flare is rarely chosen, and when it is, it rarely connects. In offstage situations, you usually see the better Sephiroth players opt either to go out for an edgeguard, or try and 2-frame with down smash or down air. At the ledge? Ftilt, Shadow Flare, and uair get far more use. The less familiar I am with a move (which isn't actually the case here, but hear me out), the more footage I tend to watch ahead of time, which admittedly has flaws itself that I alluded to in the video. To take an example, WaDi is one of the best ROB players in the world and famously puts very little time into practicing the character's advanced tech, his fundamentals are just that good. Which means that if tournament footage of WaDi was my main source of information, I'd likely think of the character very differently. I compensate for this by watching a variety of players, but it's never going to be perfect. Regardless, in the case of Sephiroth, his better players generally seem to have come to the same consensus that other moves are more useful in more situations. This matches how I feel about the move. This is probably my most contentious placement based on the comments, which I expected, especially because of how much more effective it tends to be in mid level and casual settings, but no regrets with the F tier. *-Zelda's Phantom:* I've had a few people bring up Phantom displacement (an advanced technique that shifts the Phantom in front of Zelda), which I opted not to cover. The first reason is similar to Sephiroth, I rarely actually see it used, and also comes with the same caveats about relying on tournament footage of the handful of strong Zelda players. The second reason is that I still don't think that's enough to push it into the same tier as moves like Charge Shot or Needles. *-Hero's Lightning Spells:* As several comments have pointed out, these _technically_ aren't projectiles, they can't be reflected, for example. I understand this, but still think they absolutely belong on the list, they clearly work like projectiles and the fact that they're not coded that way is an unintuitive quirk of the game. Joker's Gun, for example, has the same property, and I'd also include him on any other relevant projectile tier list, although I'll probably attach a disclaimer about it from now on. *-Ike's Eruption:* To be clear, Ike's Eruption is NOT a projectile, but you could argue that if Hero's lightning spells belong on here, Ike does too. Unlike those moves, however, Eruption's additional flares are irrelevant essentially 100% of the time in competitive play. *-Bowser Jr.'s Cannonball:* So, I actually originally did the same thing for this move as I did for Diddy Kong, I went back and said "I changed my mind, this move is too good for F tier, I'll move it up." Then I went to find a good clip of Cannonball that supported my point...and literally couldn't, no matter how long I looked. So I changed my mind on changing my mind and deleted that segment. Some other use cases the comments have brought up, like firing it high so that it drops down much later, don't move the needle in my opinion. *-Corrin's Dragon Fang Shot:* Part of the reason the kill confirm doesn't see much play is likely because it works best when the forward air is done approaching, at risky spacing. The better Corrin players (and swordfighter players in general) tend to prioritize spacing quite heavily. That's something I didn't mention in the video and probably should have. It also ties it to a melee move in a video full of projectiles. If there are any other tier lists that you'd like to see on the channel, let me know! -Main channel: ua-cam.com/users/mockrocktv -Twitter: twitter.com/MrMockRock -Twitch: www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch -Patreon: www.patreon.com/mockrock -Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock -TimeBolt affiliate link (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/
How about a bomb tier list I'd like to see your opinions on characters bombs/explosions moves as they use them for either just damage or more importantly (to me) the setplay potential
Something I'd love to see is ranking all suicide kills. Wolf down throw/side b, incineroar down throw/up b, ganoncide, bowsercide, kirbycide, mii Brawler has like 3 etc. I think it would be fun to see Edit: Seeing a lot of people saying they are all the same or similar. Some of them take multiple moves, some don't. Some require specific percentages, some don't. Some kill you first, some don't. Some kill you even if the opponent lives, some let you live if the move doesn't work. Some need difficult spacing or DI, some don't. Some can be mashed out of, others can't. Some don't work on all characters, some do. Some require your opponent to go to ledge or be offstage, some don't. There is plenty of difference imo.
This could be a fun one! I think the title would probably be more like "self destruct moves" haha, but I've added it to my idea doc that a lot of videos get pulled from at some point, thanks for the suggestion!
Robin's thunder is like half the reason why I play him. Each projectile is so unique and situational that you feel like a genius when you get that combo, snipe, or kill off them.
Also forgot to mention how Thoron beats out every other projectile (I think? Or just about) on top of being the big dumb lazer thar can kill. It's really pivotal in winning projectile wars.
@@neog8029 the problem is that robins speed is his greatest enemy. Also the loss of checkmate. Thoron is godly when it comes to beating out moves, but for the total cost, and time spent charging, the value is nowhere near what you can get for an arcthunder. Though arcthunder was nerfed even more than thoron from 4 to ultimate. All that said, Robin is still incredibly fun to use, and has replaced both marth and pikachu as my main since his release.
@@vla1ne All true points, I suppose. I'm still cursing whoever decided Robin should have the second slowest run speed behind Ganondorf and even Jigglypuff. At least he has...average air speed. I know I'm not utilizing Arcthunder as well as I should. I need to learn to capitalize on conditioning with it more since I think that's where Arcthunder excels. Robin is by far the most fun Fire Emblo to me as well. The mixed zoning/swordie playstyle with a big emphasis on ledge and shield pressure just clicked so well for me.
@@neog8029 same. I had to learn to stop aiming for full charge and using basic thunder more often. Robins tools are all for different situations, and even while they still need buffs imo, I can't help but love using robin.
^ yeah, it definitely has its uses, especially at ledge. you shouldn't really ever edge attack against seph period, jumping would just get you hit by gigaflare/megaflare, roll and normal get up from ledge can just get you hit by fair/ftilt/fsmash/upb (maybe even side b) as a tool at the ledge it can be extremely good the main thing is that ftilt and dtilt can two-frame and one wing sephiroth can probably just go offstage instead and do something like fair/dair, or stick to the side and do smth after that at a minimum I'd say it's C and yeah flare's bad lmao
@@paulikanervo1556 factoring in a Shield Break doesn't make a move good. By that logic should Warlock Punch be considered a good move ? I don't think so. If you're relying on your opponent getting the Shield broken, that's not what I would call a consistent move, which is one of the main criteria to judge whether a move is good or not
I didn't mean that the gigaflare would brake the shield, but that sephiroth would first brake the shield (with down-smash and shadow flares maybe) and when the enemy is fainted, then you could use gigaflare f-smash. Neutral-b used as a shield brake does not really work if you tought that was what I meant.
Mii Gunner's charge shot honestly has some great synergy with their kit, depending on what moveset you have. Unlike the samus version which is a combo starter, Gunners is more conventional being a combo ender with things like Flame Pillar for combos or missles to set up pressure from far away.
Pro tip: Charge Shot kills if you charge it all the way. I understand the utility in uncharged shots but it seems like people forget it can fully charge. You can get people to choke with just the fear of it alone, my friend.
@@CLSharpman5000 You can but near full charge kills almost just as well as full charge while still granting you the utility (movement option, combo and mixup tool) of uncharged CS. The almost-universal projectile shield damage nerf and BEEEEG endlag of full charge are why you don't see it being used very much.
While I see your point about bjr's cannon, one thing that you didn't mention was that after a while the ball will just fall down with a hitbox still activated. Many bjr players use it for ledge guarding when spaced well and can snipe recoveries with alot of knockback
@@chriiis7002 Do not forget that it has a landing hitbox, which means the cannonball can hit a shield twice. If the move is charged up for even half a second, and if both hits connect on the shield, it’s an instant shieldbreak
I’d bump up sephiroth’s neutral B because when he gets a shield break (so easy to do) he has the ability to literally kill at 3 %. (Well spaced N-B into F-smash (or F-tilt) and it’s even better and can kill from anywhere when he has wing.
By your logic, Warlock Punch, Falcon Punch and Skewer are all good moves, right ? Since if you get a Shield Break you can either kill at 0% or does 60% damage with them. Unless a character can break shield with a move with less than 6-frame start up (in which case I don't think the move that kill is the problem), breaking shield at the highest level of competitive play is never consistent. You also have to factor in perfect shielding (a.k.a. parrying). A move that is almost only used to punish Shield Break is thus never consistent, no matter how punishing it can be
@@hoanganphanle To be fair, for sephiroth specifically, shield breaks arent uncommon if you arent specifically avoiding it, as often sephiroth will use side b, then when they shield, they combine the might of the side B projectiles plus down smash into a shield break
I know this really isn’t part if the criteria, but I want it to be known that Kirby gets a fairly quick, sorely needed OoS kill confirm from center stage with Link’s arrow at 100% (jump -> arrow throw -> Fair 1 -> FSmash/USmash; reverse arrow throw is even faster) Granted, Link probably shouldn’t be getting close to your shield, but if he gets even somewhat close it works. Actually, your own take on Kirby’s Smash copy abilities would be pretty interesting to see.
I've covered this in a video before, actually! A Kirby hat tier list is one I've gotten a bunch of suggestions for, I'm a little hesitant just because that's one a lot of people have already made in the past but I'm honestly not sure how much I should care about that, it may happen at some point.
@@MockRockTalk to be fair I haven't seen anyone really as technical and painstaking in their analysis on stuff like this as you. I'd personally be down to see a copy ability tier list from you. Also I dont mean to be that guy but are you still going to be doing the signature move tier list videos? I do very much enjoy those.
@@vick7868 The last video on my main channel starts with a channel update/future plans segment, check that out to see what the future of MockRock looks like.
As a Byleth main, Failnaught neutral b is great in its uncharged form You can turn it around up to two times, and if you know your timing you can hit the opponent with it while offstage so you send them away to be able to recover after Also idk why but i often just randomly shoot a predictable arrow and they just stand there and get hit. I dont know why it happens so often but i land the arrows more often than i should
And most importantly, you can cancel it anytime and condition the opponent with it, something that he doesn't mention at all and that is used by even Mk Leo because the arrow is still menacing
Yeah. I play Byleth on occasion and I can confirm this is true. As a Corrin main, his/her Neutral B is actually really good for those types of mix-ups as well. It can't be canceled, but it has multiple levels of charging which differentiates the speed, power, and stun effect duration. I totally trick people with this. Sometimes they think I'm doing a weak shot, so they spot dodge, but then they get hit by a bigger ball of energy and then chomped. I also use it to break my fall for a bit, inch down, then bite (this works at times, too). I *also* use the fully-charged projectile to stun someone long enough to run up to them and hit them with tipper Side B attack that will definitely K.O. at the right percents and areas.
I was kinda thinking about a tier list with all the grabbable items. (The ones that come from characters, for example Diddy's Banana, Mega Man's Saw.) Another amazing video from Mockrock!
This one's already in my idea document, don't expect it for awhile since I don't want to put 2 projectile lists right beside each other but I'd be surprised if this doesn't get made at some point.
Tbf Ganon’s Warlock Punch can ALSO kill at around 0 from a shield break. I wouldn’t say Sephiroth’s Mega Flare is that useful otherwise, but I can respect it.
i disagree with byleth, it’s a great conditioning move because you HAVE to respect it, either by shield or jumping or parrying if you’re good. you can catch people off guard while edge guarding and get an early kill, and it does high damage despite the slow start up
MkLeo will use it for tech chasing sometimes, and every once in a while he'll snipe with it as an edgeguard. I don't think that elevates it from D-tier. "respecting it by shielding or jumping or parrying" is a non-issue at top-level, and really you could say that about nearly every projectile.
You could make the same argument to Warlock Punch: conditioning your opponent to either jump out of its range or shield it. And I don't think I have to elaborate on why Warlock Punch is one of the worst move
You only have to respect it when it's out though, because it's slow enough that players can either react to the start up at far distances or interrupt it at close distances. Whereas better moves require the opponent to respect the move even when its not being used, either because the startup is too fast to react to or because the reward for hitting the move is that high. Neither pf which applies to Failnaught
That's exactly what i tried to explain about the blue flare from seph, the conditioning aspect. I dont think he really understands it as a dark pit main himself cuz of the down b is reliable but he can stil be grabbed
I think you're underselling Sephiroth neutral b a bit. It's pretty good at baiting out reactions and pressuring recoveries. Do nothing and they eat a Mega Flare. If they go high and you can cancel it and go for fair or uair. Go low and potentially get spiked. I find the threat of the move is stronger than the move itself (same for Byleth). Plus Mega Flare travels super fast, covers a good amount of ground and kills. That said, looking at the rest of the list I agree it is outclassed by most other projectiles and probably doesn't deserve anything higher than C tier.
@@9forMortalMenTo be fair, relying on your opponent to mess up is like… 90% of zoning, tho. You dictate the pace of the match, you punish when they mess up.
@@FedoraKirb this is true, but zoning is also about setting up checkmate situations, where your opponent has too few options to deal with what you are doing. Your other tools as sephiroth can be used as the checkmate more regularly than flare.
I would put Byleth’s a little up cause it’s an excellent conditioning tool. It does amazing shield damage (which Byleth can take advantage of), travels very fast and it kills.
Heavy disagree with PK Freeze. With it being nearly lagless you can practically remain in neutral while pressing advantage/keeping you opponent in disadvantage It's angle is unforgiving and if landed can essentially Combo into itself and iirc you CAN'T mash out of this freeze keeping the timing strict
Agreed! It’s a great tool when used in the right hands and you can really catch people’s habits with it too. The best part really is the lack of endlag and how that can be used to mixup your edge-guarding and and the way forces people to respect it in certain situations. Maybe i’m biased, but probably put it in high B tier honestly.
you can also stall offstage by spamming it, but the main reason its better than pk flash is because it forces the opponent to burn resources to avoid it which sets up for the rest of Lucas's edgeguarding tools
When you hit it it also feels like the opponent can't act out of gettign released immediately, most of the time placing a well timed fire just when they break free will hit and kill them if the freeze wasn't enough already. Also the fact that you can damage the opponent while frozen is pretty good. Not a move that defines the character or anythign but when you fidn a use it can be really good, definetely better than Ness' neutral b
I think Corrin’s Dragon Fang Shot deserves a bit more of a nod as a juggling tool weirdly enough. Given that Corrin has some of the best juggling in the game, air dodge punishes are very common for Corrin players, and dragon fang shot actually kills people for air dodging. Cosmos has even used the move for that in the past
The way I use Jr projectile is as a sky drop attack. I launch it in the sky, go low below ledge and while my opponent tries to guard ledge, I'll fake an attack so they put their shield up and cannon ball hits shield, then the ground doing even more shield damage. Their shield pretty much pops. Never advise to use this move grounded. It's a projectile you always wanna use in the air.
I think you have to immediately remove up bs out of the equation for this one, and even then, the line get pretty blurry for this category. Does Incineroar's Alolan Whip count for example? It's a movement option, sure, but I hardly see it used for that purpose.
Lucas' PK Freeze will travel below ledge which can catch a lot of people off gaurd. And its low end lag means that air dodging too close to Lucas results in a punish.
Pop gun cancelling is so insanely good and imo puts it near A tier. Also ledge trapping with it is amazing as it forces an option off ledge and can combo into fair/bair for a kill
Ridley getting hit while charging is actually useful, when that happens it cancels all knockback meaning you can get hit by warlock punch at a high percent and still live, you can almost always avoid it but in a edguarding scenario you can just not get edguarded also if your shield is low and your set up so you can’t go anywhere having that option is useful.
But it also has huge lag and the explosion does no damage, so the enemy always has time for a big followup even if they weren't ready for it. I tried to make it work, but getting weak spotted is rarely actually advantageous even if it seems like it in theory.
Another thing to add about aura sphere is that it’s super good at ledge trapping since you can use the charge to cover an option and the projectile hits under the ledge if you’re over like 70%. This also means it 2 frames so you get some pretty early kills that way.
With the game's infamous online, I would suggest making a Wi-Fi tier list, like moves that get the most out of online lag (zoners in particular are infamous online for that reason). You did briefly touch upon that aspect in some videos, but with how the world has been throughout most of Ultimate's life, I feel like it deserves a list of its own.
i personally think toon links arrow is a tier. super slow travel time with really good endlag means it covers a lot of space for toon link while being hard to punish in neutral. combined with his insane bombs and good boomerangs its really good
I paused at 8:42 to make a "you spin me right around" joke, then realized that I paused it at the perfect time to see Dark Pit aiming it through the monitor, straight at me.
I would love if you rated all tether grabs in the game. They're especially interesting due to the differing aerial uses for them all being fairly unique.
I definitely think that giga flare should be C tier because it could be used to punish a shield break and will kill at zero if you use f smash at the same time and when sephiroth is in one-wing, it is pretty easy to get shield breaks.
Hey! Zelda player here, albeit amateur. I think A tier is fair for Phantom, but I do want to point out one small way in which a lot of people severely underrate it - as a _defensive_ option. Yes, it throws out massive hitboxes and controls a lot of stage space. However, where I personally get more use out of it than anything is simply body-blocking opponents. The body of the Phantom itself is a semi-solid wall while charging, as well as between its hitboxes ending and it disappearing; it can be rolled through, but not walked or dashed through, in a similar way to the Pits' down-B. With careful play and some well-timed B-reverses, it can create an immense amount of openings not just by threatening with its hitboxes, but also by unexpectedly restricting enemy movement and "pinning" them in place when they expected to approach.
I think if you consider that you can perform a Displaced Phantom Slash with Zelda, then the move should be S tier. Because if you do a retreating displaced Phantom, you can charge Phantom while avoiding a good amount of projectiles because Knight protects you. If you do it forwards, you can be perfectly setup for ledge traps, or you can go off stage and leave phantom on the edge to ledge guard covering off stage space. It has counterplay for sure, but because you can mixup timings which make a big difference, move around with Knight fully charged etc. I'd say it's S tier. Certainly I think it's better than the rest of A tier at the least.
I wasn't totally sure how to handle the Phantom tech, this is an issue that comes up sometimes with more advanced techniques for characters I don't play myself. Generally in these cases, I watch a bunch of tournament sets of the character being used, and for Zelda, I honestly rarely actually saw displaced Phantom. Admittedly, this runs into the same issue I talked about in the video, the sample size for a lot of characters isn't that big and the best players of their character aren't necessarily the most knowledgeable about their tech. That said, if I'm struggling to find good examples of a technique, compared to Charge Shot go boom, I find it hard to place them right next to each other.
@@MockRockTalk That's true, I rarely run into other Zelda mains who can use displaced Phantom, and I am disappointed that Ven, the best Zelda, doesn't use the tech. That's all to say that I do understand your reasoning, it is hard to argue with Charge Shot go brrrr😂
I think even the ledge trapping function is good enough for S tier! Zelda can cover every option with it. You can even 2 frame with it. Or two frame with d tilt which will connect with phantom. Plus you have the different charges which all have different uses. The earlier ones can set up a tech, the over head slash covers people jumping in. It can be used to break shield. It combos. It can be used when returning to stage to cover yourself. It can be used in edge guarding. It can protect against moves. It has a wind box which can move players into a charged up smash or cheese recoveries if they go above the ledge. It can be displaced forward or backward. You can charge it whilst falling through a platform so it forms on the platform. It gives Zelda stage control. If forces limited options for the player. And it’s intimidating to play against. In terms of dins fire, it’s niche for sure. Should only be used when you’re off stage or your opponent is off stage. Off stage it’ll protect you from players setting up ledgetraps which is essential for Zelda since she struggles getting off the ledge. As an edguarding tool it forces air dodge or jump. Air dodge is worse if you’re high because then you’re left open. Zelda charges a phantom and that’s it for you. But if that jump is read you would die insanely early. 50%. If you’re recovering low and you can edguard and you take the hit you’ll probably die. Would bumb up to B tier
16:36 "Not really the list this move belongs in, but I do have to include it, it is a projectile, you can pocket and reflect it." *Talks about Zapple four seconds later*
Honestly Robin's Thunder charges rarely matter that much in my experience. It does sometimes suck but because it charges into different moves with different uses Thunder is usually a move you plan to use rather than a move you'd miss out on if you were out of charges with the possible exception of no charge Thunder which you can usually play around not having for a few seconds until you have it back. The only other move I care less about running out of is Nosferatu but that move's so situational I often forget I even have it.
Same. Nosferatu is just free discards, but Thunder isn't something that matters too much when it's gone, it only matters when it's there. Also, the discards from Thunder can be nice.
_Technically_ that's correct, I know that, but I attribute that more to the game being weird, they still clearly feel like projectiles and fit the spirit of the list. I'd include Joker's Gun in a broader projectile list as well, for example.
@@MockRockTalk Wouldn't Eruption count then, too? The fully charged one fires a pretty sizeable blaze, and all charges have an upward blast that's somewhat disjointed.
splat bomb is easily a tier for me, the way you can completely invalidate some recoveries and force ledge situations and ledge traps make it a top 3 inkling move for sure
The useful thing about Ridley's Boss hurtbox on his breath attack is that cancels all knockback, regardless of Ridley's damage percentage, which can make it a situational survival option, it's not ADVISED cause of the heavy lag you'll have after but it COULD just save you
I understand your reasoning for Bowser Jr's Cannon but, in my experience, it's a really powerful tool when used in combination with his Mecha Koopa. You can use it to set traps and limit your opponents space to work with so you can more easily predict their movements. Although, it should be said that my experience is very casual. While me and my friends are pretty good I wouldn't say we are anywhere near as good as any of the pros. I'm sure it's a very different case for them.
PK Freeze is A tier. It is used in neutral as an anti air that if that air dodge through you get a free hit. It helps you mix up your recoveries a lot. It is highly mobile so it can catch aerial spammers and when you send lucas in the same direction in the air with the freeze it can be used to cover yourself. Way better than the sample size of pro players would suggest.
@@MockRockTalk that’s when you were talking about Giga flare, the only things you talked about was Flare and Giga flare. Edit: And if you did, you glossed over it so fast I might have confused it for Giga flare talk but even then, mega as so much more use then the other two glossing over it so quickly made it seem like it’s never us Edit 2: I mentioned the 2 framed but realized I was talking about flare so I just deleted it
Something you forgot to mention with Gunner, is that it’s really easy to start Gundashing (reverse fairing for hella speed) when recovering by b reversing chargeshot, jump to cancel, and immediately fair.
As a sephiroth main, i would personally bump up neutral-b to c. In my experience i've gotten a lot of use for its second version, and the killpower of its third version makes up for its high risk, and is much more useful in a casual enviroment. Just my thoughts.
I would personally agree with this, as a Kirby that loves to eat Sephiroth for this move. The 2nd charge seems weirdly spammable. And even just the threat of how powerful the move is, the fact that you can cancel it at any time makes it great for conditioning your opponent.
Agreed. I'd also bump up Corrin's Neutral B because it has multiple levels of charging, which differentiates the projectile's speed and power. This allows for a ton of set-ups and mix-ups. It can even stall Corrin in the air a bit, before inching downwards into the bite (so you could float over someone's attack then hit them back). The fully-charged projectile can stun someone long enough for a side B pin or sweet-spot hit in certain situations. It has quite a lot of uses for a slow-starting projectile.
I think Sephiroth's neutral B is severely undervalued. mid-charge is great if you're trying to get back on stage (forces the opponent to work around it), and full charge forces the opponent to fall into another trap. even if you time it perfectly, Sephiroth can react to the option you choose and punish you for that anyways. Also cancelling the full charge and then hitting the opponent with another move is a great conditioning tool
YOU ARE JUST DEAD WRONG ABOUT GIGAFLARE: that move is so intimidating because it’s cancelable and the blue flare is fast. It’s not really that you’re gonna hit the opponent with it but more so for conditioning jumping, reflecting and shielding which seph can punish and if he manages to break your shield(even if you’re bowser) you’re just dead, so it’s at least A-tier
Gigaflare also instabreaks shield if in winged mode as well, aside from covering a lot of options if spaced well, and kills at early percents as well. Megaflare can force an airdodge offstage, which can let you not worry about that during ledge guards, and can also cover some recoveries if spaced well. Flare is just kind of there, you can throw it out occasionally to bait or get some damage, or cancel it into a jump if you read a jump
Well, conditioning is good but it's something you can do with a lot of projectile and a lot of it comes from matchup inexperience. I can see it being B tier max but it's certainly not an a tier, considering how good chargeable are in general. And as he said, none of these moves are bad, but you need to rank them. The move that I think is not F tier is dragonfangshot, it is surprisingly great at catching jumps, especially in advantage state, is really versatile and overall more comparable to paralizer.
@@artimist0315 yeah thats what i was gonna say B tier solely for Blue Flare/Mega Flare alone because of the conditioning; it's actually a unilateral neutral tool that dictates the pace of the match against characters with no absorber or reflector. Even then, if you time it where the explosion will be right in front of their face, it cant be absorbed or reflected they will eat the explosion and the blast has a huge radius still
I think that rosas is a tier. I can understand your placement, and I can understand that it is apples to oranges, but along side the fact that it is so vital to her play style, I see a surprising amount of use with the actual projectile aspect. Uncharged can play an important role in turning around at your opponent when counter-zoning, and the fully charged version kills way earlier than one would think. But I also see that many people don’t actually believe that it has a hit box, so that may have something to do with it. But again the a placement is very respected and I love these videos so much. Keep it up man!
You’re completely wrong about Sephiroth’s neutral B. It’s by far one of the best ledge trapping moves in the entire game. It really makes it so your opponent has to work around it, which in itself is super challenging to do without getting caught by the projectile.
Something that I think should move Corrin's dragon shot up a tier or two is 1. The stun scales with the percentage and 2. Because of that you can get a really easy tipper pin confirm if you know how to space it and at higher percents (around %100-110) you can even get it if the dragon shot hits from across the stage. Granted it is somewhat difficult to learn the spacing but once you do you have a somewhat easy kill option if your opponent likes jumping which in ultimate is very common.
In regards to Luma shot, looking at how it gets used when we only look at the projectile aspects, a Kirby with Luma Shot can be an absolute nightmare due to the lack of a hurtbox to stop it, meaning it basically beats anything that normally could stop a fully charged projectile, and sometimes even reflectors fail to actually reflect it far enough because of that tight distance control. If we look at it in the context of Rosalina herself having it, it's mostly used in advantage like the non-projectile non-stoage charging moves; a glorified mid air smash attack. And if we look at it in neutral, it can be used decently as a mixup to setup desyncs or grab confirms on foes who shield it - the odd case where your opponent shielding the move could easily be more beneficial than them getting hit You may also want to consider the neutral B when luma is gone (often called "wand wave") in that case, it's even more apples to oranges, but it does mean you now have access to a free B reverse button, and a spammable windbox that can be used against certain recoveries to almost guarentee the foes' demise. All in all, A tier does seem about right
Din’s fire is fantastic for edgeguarding, forces airdodge and very little endlag which she can really capitalize on. I’d definitely put it above peanut pop gun at the very least.
Flare's underrated. Didn't even mention it allows Sephiroth a free 0-death. Gigaflare kills Pichu at ledge with optimal DI with no follow-up. Great conditioning tool, reversing momentum, etc. A situational move that gets you a free kill once every few high level games can still be a good move and this one isn't even that situational. Played a tournament vs my brothers, a friend came to play as well and we were seeded against each other. He ragequit because of that move alone. (Though this is low level play.) :p
It kinda funny when you said "most characters would trade their neutral special for this" when talking about gunner charge shot, when a lot of people trade that for another neutral special.
@@SSM24_ yeah it does, it just think it's funny that the one character that could actually switch this to be there neutral special has a better one (debatably)
As a Plant main, trapping someone in a poison cloud with jab or pummel is rare, but cathartic. Landing poison cloud for more than a second just feels *good*.
I'd put Lucas's PK freeze into high B tier or low A tier. It's one of the safest projectiles on a shield (-15 if uncharged to -5 at full charge) that locks a character into an animation. It is just nuts on shield or hit. & most characters can't even punish a partially charged pk freeze on shield 3 character lengths away from Lucas. It actually lingers (4 frames from 1) & enables combos from 0-30 with normals or leads into more pk freeze chains or DJ pk fires for nasty offstage sniping gimps (it even has 23 frames of endlag after the hitbox is over & it takes 5 frames from the startup to detonate, making parrying it nigh impossible because of the massive delay mixups). Lucas being hit on the frame you release the special button does NOT stop freeze from detonating either. It bypasses the annoying attack/defensive option landing strategies that most of the cast opts to do & makes them forfeit stage control or risk potentially getting gimped afterward. It's transcendent, meaning only full body intangibility, invincibility, or reflector hitboxes can actually avoid it safely, especially if one is cornered, has limited landing mixups, is slow in the air, or has meh landing options. the endlag on it is so low that lucas can actually use it to bait predictable landing options or force normal getups on ledge as well if he has the time to set it up. It forces many characters to heavily alter their recovery trajectories or flat-out die. It's a good chargeable projectile, because once it's out during Lucas's advantage with snatching landings or general corner pressure, it can command lots of respect & cheese while being very risky to punish.
This man used prime hunter music while talking about charge shot, and charge shot was damn scary in that game too. Coms could land that move in your face, and it charged so fast that they could throw it out at any time.
Fun Fact about Ridleys Boss Weakpoint Thing: It cancels out every knockback you would receive. This does include Litte Mac's KO Punch if it connects just right.
I have to say that Bowser Jr.'s cannonball is way more useful than you state it as. The purpose of this move is not just to force an option but also to make an everlasting presence due to it having a lingering hitbox, its falling property, the high priority over many other projectiles, and the fact that it does not stop when shielded. These properties do several things. It makes breaking shields and covering escape options from shield possible. It makes it a menacing edge-guarding tool and a complimentary recovery tool when falling from the top corner, which is common. It makes it an unexpected anti-zoning tool when it powers through other projectiles. It also makes it a solid tech-chasing tool, especially on platforms that limit the effectiveness of tech-rolling. While the charge-up does force more attention to positioning, the cannonball takes advantage of that to have a much higher skill-ceiling instead of a simple fast kill move.
So, fun fact: I actually did a similar thing as with Diddy, I went back after my initial recording session and said "you know what, I think I underrated this one a bit, I'll move it up to C tier." So then I went to find a nice clip of Bowser Jr. using the cannonball in a way that supported my point...and I literally couldn't. I watched probably 15 matches looking for a moment where a Bowser Jr. player prioritized Cannonball over pulling Mecha Koopa and that decision actually payed off in some meaningful way, and I never found it. So I deleted the revision. I'm not saying it never happens, but it doesn't happen enough.
Failnaut is so fast when you take in to account it’s kill power that it deserves minimum B tier, sephiroth’s neutral B is a zero to death shield break punish with forward smash. They both are better than or as good as diddy gun.
Wow, I’m gonna keep this list in mind while playing Kirby The fact that I can do forward throw into charge shot is insane. And he adds 1.2x damage multiplier
Not really, im 7 minutes in and he’s made some pretty shit opinions. Sephiroths grapes are not S tier, and pop gun is definitely not b tier. Literally anything out prioritizes the peanuts, it has a really niche use that isn’t even that great. Like, he showed it being used against luigi and that honestly seems like one of the few characters that actually might have some small issues with the peanuts. The best thing about pop gun is cancelling it and he didn’t even mention that. It’s also not very difficult to avoid Sephiroths grapes. The annoying part is that you have to shield or retreat to ledge, but it isn’t that bad. If you just knock Sephiroth away, or just run, then it isn’t a big issue. Just don’t be an idiot and get caught lacking by the downsmash. No idea how could put grapes and charge shot in the same tier
@@carldalord Having even one shadow flare on you means you're getting interrupted in 5 seconds. Sure you didn't get hit, but you had to take some shield damage or retreat or stop your combo or whatever which breaks your momentum and gives Sephiroth time to breathe. Landing a shadow flare basically guarantees a second free attack for your opponent to deal with.
@@carldalord you can disagree with the content, but you can't deny the man really puts some thoughts into it and argument for his point relatively on the fly. Mad props for that.
@@nocturn333 I can’t remember a time where his grapes messing up my combos was a big issue. Also it’s really easy to avoid it. You don’t see good Sephiroths using his grapes a lot. Sephiroths grapes just shouldn’t be used most of the time. Terribly small hitbox too
I've got a couple comments about this, mostly about Corrin and Robin. For Corrin, a lot of their advantage comes from people not knowing the matchup, and a charged dragon fang is a really good skill check. It will kinda break shields if they just expect to shield the projectile so hold shield, it's a decent ledge trap to make your opponent stay on ledge longer which lets Corrin instant pin to kill them below ledge, or f-smash if they're still hanging there. It's also pretty good at anti-zoning which is something Corrin has a lot of issues with, while it is slow, it does clank with most other projectiles. For Robin, they struggle to kill a lot of the time because their kill moves have meter, and you'll probably run out of it once or twice by the time your opponent has enough % to kill. That's where Elthunder comes in, it's fast, doesn't require a lot of meter, can be charged in less time than it takes to land from a full hop, scales extremely well with %, and even if it doesn't kill, it'll knock your opponent offstage pretty easily at anywhere above 100%. Kills starting at 140 ish which isn't bad at all for a really fast, safe, small projectile. That's the main use you'll probably see Robin players get out of it, other than maybe using arcthunder for shieldbreak setups, or the uncharged thunder as a decent poke projectile. It's not S-tier, but it's got a lot more use than just thoron.
Chargeable projectiles are just so good in general. They're situational at worst and amazing at best. Even the worst ones are still VERY good in their intended use cases.
I love zero suit’s neutral special because you can mix up if you want to shoot the fully charged version or the tiny uncharged version so this keeps opponents scared
In my opinion, I think that Sephiroth’s neutral b could’ve been put a little higher. Sephiroth’s standard flare isn’t really that great, but it does have some combo potential, mega flare can be used after a shadow flare detonates, and gigaflare is one of the best shield punishes in the game because you can also fit a forward smash during the explosion which does roughly 70% damage. This is also really useful considering the fact that Sephiroth has almost zero problems when it comes to shield breaks
I had a weird idea for a new tier list What about ranking every single “gimmick” in Smash? So, for example, Kirby’s inhale, Steve’s crafting, etc Obviously the criteria for what counts as a gimmick would be tricky to nail down though…
I see a lot of people talking about Sephiroth's neutral B being underrated, but boy I think Corrin's Neutral B is also underrated. That one move alone can throw people off like CRAZY. It has multiple levels of charging that differentiates the speed, distance, power, and stun duration of the projectile and it can B-reverse. I shall add that the bite is optional pretty much optional. I tricked several players into spot dodging too early, only to get hit by a stronger bolt (and at times a large bite). The fully-charged bolt can stun someone long enough for Corrin to run up with a Side B attack that can KO or deal some extra damage. It also breaks Corrin's fall and stalls him in the air for a bit before he lowering a bit more and finally biting (this actually works if timed correctly). This is a high B tier move at best.
Surely Sephiroth's Flare deserves some extra credit for allowing him some ridiculous early kills off of shield breaks, by itself or paired with Fsmash, as a character who can get shield breaks with relative frequency? Like, while that aspect wouldn't save the likes of Warlock Punch from being labeled an F tier move, Flare itself starts with a good deal more usefulness, as a projectile that can be canceled for mindgames and conditioning, and then has the ludicrous kills on top of that. Having that move is arguably a large part of why his shield damage is so threatening, as his Fsmash alone wouldn't get him kills as early or as reliably when platforms are involved.
bowser jr's canonball is a fantastic move for forcing a low recovery where jr's edgeguarding is at its best tho. because it's so slow it can control a lot of high space, not to mention the fact it has a falling hitbox, not to mention the fact you can cancel the end lag fully by grabbing ledge. canonball is what enables up b edgeguarding, and that shit's broken
You cannot say that links arrow is b teir and flare is f teir. The arrow is basi ally useless in comparison to boomerang and bomb. Flare is used more often by sephiroths than arrow is for link. It's also used as a pressure tool to approach with because of how slow the base charge is. Also even if you can time a getup, sephiroth can wait for your getup with f tilt or grab.
displaced phantom and RAR displaced phantom covers for the majority of Zelda's mobility issues when it comes to using phantom. she can move behind it to protect herself from most projectiles and make her even harder to approach while charging phantom, and Zelda can also move away from a charging phantom to chase someone after launching them while still setting up a devastating punish with huge coverage.
Corrin's dragon shot is actually a good jump from ledge trump, it stalls in the air and the shot pushes it back slightly so the chomp will hit those below the original blast. It catches alot of people and lets you get off edge
I think Zelda's phantom should be in S tier personally as it has really good defensive utility if you can learn how to get behind it while it's being summoned. It can cover you from other projectiles and even force your opponent to whiff and give you an opportunity to punish them.
Before watching the video: zelda's down b has to be S tier. It is good for neutral, edgegarding, reverse edgegarding, it has much different properties based on how much of a charge it has with the 2nd highest covering so much vertical space and the highest charge covering almost all ledge options. There's a delay after the charge that can let zelda get tons of combos, or you can mix it up with no delay, it does a ton a shield damage and down b + fair can break shields super easily. It kills well, it tanks hits for Zelda, it is easily the best move in her kit
Corrin main here, tap neutral B hold for full bite is one of Corrin’s best kill confirms, arguably a better punish for whiffed smash attacks at higher percentage too
I liked the list although I think there were a few instances where you were finding it difficult to separate the projectile from the mechanic (Luma and Aura Sphere being the main ones) and actually Kirby was your friend here, because he doesn't get an aura mechanic (Kirby's Aura Sphere treats him like having around 70% aura all the time, or something like that, not totally sure), and Kirby's Luma is just a projectile, and it is very oppressive. No real follow-ups or kill power, but it's free, almost riskless damage and a way to control the play area a bit. Or assassinate the opposing Luma from a distance xD
Short Hop Woosh is a frame 10 projectile with transcendent priority that launches opponents to Hero's back. Hero gets enough height to land on high platforms (triplats). Use it preemptively to hit with late active frames, works quite well! Zap, Zapple, Frizz and Frizzle are awesome space making tools to allow more menu pulls and tech chasing option coverage. Kazap and Kafrizz kill very early with Kazap being a mixup to call out airdodges and rolls after using zap and zapple alot. Kafrizz is also enormous making it super easy to edge guard high recoveries. Even though they all consume MP, you underestimate how easy it is to get it all back save kazap and kafrizz. I’d say zap and frizz family be A-S tier while whoosh family take a spot somewhere around B tier.
Glad to hear we're getting an updated best Smash Moves! I still remember when you said that you were gonna exclude the ones that had mechanics around them, that made me want to figure out how moves like that would work mashed together. I looked at it as they should only effect moves they already effect, so having one of Hero's specials wouldn't cause specials from another character to cost MP, same goes for Tomes. Limit wouldn't power Up a special not from Cloud. Ect. Olimar and Steve need a special in order to use other Specials. Min Min needs down special to change her neutral special- and as for what her neutral special is, it's the tilt attacks that come from her right arm. Side special would be that tilt and also the smash attacks, so really Min Min's "neutral special" is absolutely worthless. Although for Ice Climbers, that one was tricky. I ended up deciding on that one to have two of this... character, and halving all damage and knockback in exchange for having two of this character. Of course, the alternative is having simply the one ice Climber special versions- but that's boring. So I locked the double character behind Ice Climbers up special.
One other bit of singer with Sephiroth's 2 moves is that if you get 3 flares on something and the shield it, timing a down smash with the flares is a near guaranteed shield break from full. I think I've gotten more breaks with Seph than the rest of the roster combined. And then Giga flare is a nasty break punish at mid% and higher.
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Thanks for watching everyone! A projectile tier list has been heavily requested and I figured something more specific like this might be interesting, what did you think? There are a couple moves I'm seeing pop up in the comments a lot, mostly the ones I expected, so here's some more detail on them:
*-Mii Gunner's Stealth Burst:* This move should have been included, I made a mistake. I loosened the criteria after initially compiling the list, which added Zelda's Din's Fire, and Stealth Burst should have been added at the same time. I'd place Stealth Burst in B tier, on most characters' kits it'd probably be in C tier because of the lag but Mii Gunner has so many persistent walling tools to help set it up.
*-Sephiroth's Flare:* I've seen a lot of applications for that move listed, most of which I agree with (these videos can't cover every use case of every move). However, a lot of them are very specific, and also directly competing with something else in Sephiroth's kit. One thing I do while researching these videos is comb through a lot of high level tournament footage, and in those situations (which this list is based on), Sephiroth's [Mega/Giga]Flare is rarely chosen, and when it is, it rarely connects. In offstage situations, you usually see the better Sephiroth players opt either to go out for an edgeguard, or try and 2-frame with down smash or down air. At the ledge? Ftilt, Shadow Flare, and uair get far more use.
The less familiar I am with a move (which isn't actually the case here, but hear me out), the more footage I tend to watch ahead of time, which admittedly has flaws itself that I alluded to in the video. To take an example, WaDi is one of the best ROB players in the world and famously puts very little time into practicing the character's advanced tech, his fundamentals are just that good. Which means that if tournament footage of WaDi was my main source of information, I'd likely think of the character very differently. I compensate for this by watching a variety of players, but it's never going to be perfect. Regardless, in the case of Sephiroth, his better players generally seem to have come to the same consensus that other moves are more useful in more situations. This matches how I feel about the move. This is probably my most contentious placement based on the comments, which I expected, especially because of how much more effective it tends to be in mid level and casual settings, but no regrets with the F tier.
*-Zelda's Phantom:* I've had a few people bring up Phantom displacement (an advanced technique that shifts the Phantom in front of Zelda), which I opted not to cover. The first reason is similar to Sephiroth, I rarely actually see it used, and also comes with the same caveats about relying on tournament footage of the handful of strong Zelda players. The second reason is that I still don't think that's enough to push it into the same tier as moves like Charge Shot or Needles.
*-Hero's Lightning Spells:* As several comments have pointed out, these _technically_ aren't projectiles, they can't be reflected, for example. I understand this, but still think they absolutely belong on the list, they clearly work like projectiles and the fact that they're not coded that way is an unintuitive quirk of the game. Joker's Gun, for example, has the same property, and I'd also include him on any other relevant projectile tier list, although I'll probably attach a disclaimer about it from now on.
*-Ike's Eruption:* To be clear, Ike's Eruption is NOT a projectile, but you could argue that if Hero's lightning spells belong on here, Ike does too. Unlike those moves, however, Eruption's additional flares are irrelevant essentially 100% of the time in competitive play.
*-Bowser Jr.'s Cannonball:* So, I actually originally did the same thing for this move as I did for Diddy Kong, I went back and said "I changed my mind, this move is too good for F tier, I'll move it up." Then I went to find a good clip of Cannonball that supported my point...and literally couldn't, no matter how long I looked. So I changed my mind on changing my mind and deleted that segment. Some other use cases the comments have brought up, like firing it high so that it drops down much later, don't move the needle in my opinion.
*-Corrin's Dragon Fang Shot:* Part of the reason the kill confirm doesn't see much play is likely because it works best when the forward air is done approaching, at risky spacing. The better Corrin players (and swordfighter players in general) tend to prioritize spacing quite heavily. That's something I didn't mention in the video and probably should have. It also ties it to a melee move in a video full of projectiles.
If there are any other tier lists that you'd like to see on the channel, let me know!
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What about an armour move tier list, I think that would be interesting
Burst option tier list
Hmm maybe like a comeback mechanic tier list? For example:
Go meter, Arsene, Aura, Clouds limit, one winged angel, etc
How about a bomb tier list I'd like to see your opinions on characters bombs/explosions moves as they use them for either just damage or more importantly (to me) the setplay potential
forgot Ike neutral B
Something I'd love to see is ranking all suicide kills. Wolf down throw/side b, incineroar down throw/up b, ganoncide, bowsercide, kirbycide, mii Brawler has like 3 etc. I think it would be fun to see
Edit: Seeing a lot of people saying they are all the same or similar. Some of them take multiple moves, some don't. Some require specific percentages, some don't. Some kill you first, some don't. Some kill you even if the opponent lives, some let you live if the move doesn't work. Some need difficult spacing or DI, some don't. Some can be mashed out of, others can't. Some don't work on all characters, some do. Some require your opponent to go to ledge or be offstage, some don't. There is plenty of difference imo.
This could be a fun one! I think the title would probably be more like "self destruct moves" haha, but I've added it to my idea doc that a lot of videos get pulled from at some point, thanks for the suggestion!
And let's not forget the iconic Kamikaze
chromikaze & wariocide
I would love this! :D
Cloudicide (:
That "laugh into straightfaced F Tier" true combo on Failnaught was gold 😂😂
"Failnaught? More like Failalot!"
Robin's thunder is like half the reason why I play him. Each projectile is so unique and situational that you feel like a genius when you get that combo, snipe, or kill off them.
Yep! Same here!
Also forgot to mention how Thoron beats out every other projectile (I think? Or just about) on top of being the big dumb lazer thar can kill. It's really pivotal in winning projectile wars.
@@neog8029 the problem is that robins speed is his greatest enemy. Also the loss of checkmate. Thoron is godly when it comes to beating out moves, but for the total cost, and time spent charging, the value is nowhere near what you can get for an arcthunder. Though arcthunder was nerfed even more than thoron from 4 to ultimate.
All that said, Robin is still incredibly fun to use, and has replaced both marth and pikachu as my main since his release.
@@vla1ne All true points, I suppose. I'm still cursing whoever decided Robin should have the second slowest run speed behind Ganondorf and even Jigglypuff. At least he has...average air speed.
I know I'm not utilizing Arcthunder as well as I should. I need to learn to capitalize on conditioning with it more since I think that's where Arcthunder excels.
Robin is by far the most fun Fire Emblo to me as well. The mixed zoning/swordie playstyle with a big emphasis on ledge and shield pressure just clicked so well for me.
@@neog8029 same. I had to learn to stop aiming for full charge and using basic thunder more often. Robins tools are all for different situations, and even while they still need buffs imo, I can't help but love using robin.
I find sephiroth’s neutral B to be a great tool at keeping opponents at a distance and conditions opponents to jump, which you can read
^ yeah, it definitely has its uses, especially at ledge.
you shouldn't really ever edge attack against seph period, jumping would just get you hit by gigaflare/megaflare, roll and normal get up from ledge can just get you hit by fair/ftilt/fsmash/upb (maybe even side b)
as a tool at the ledge it can be extremely good
the main thing is that ftilt and dtilt can two-frame and one wing sephiroth can probably just go offstage instead and do something like fair/dair, or stick to the side and do smth after that
at a minimum I'd say it's C and yeah flare's bad lmao
After a shield break you can do gigaflare and f-smash that I'm pretty sure kills every character in the game.
@@paulikanervo1556 factoring in a Shield Break doesn't make a move good. By that logic should Warlock Punch be considered a good move ? I don't think so. If you're relying on your opponent getting the Shield broken, that's not what I would call a consistent move, which is one of the main criteria to judge whether a move is good or not
I didn't mean that the gigaflare would brake the shield, but that sephiroth would first brake the shield (with down-smash and shadow flares maybe) and when the enemy is fainted, then you could use gigaflare f-smash. Neutral-b used as a shield brake does not really work if you tought that was what I meant.
@@paulikanervo1556 still by that logic warlock punch becomes the best move in the game lmao
Mii Gunner's charge shot honestly has some great synergy with their kit, depending on what moveset you have. Unlike the samus version which is a combo starter, Gunners is more conventional being a combo ender with things like Flame Pillar for combos or missles to set up pressure from far away.
The best part is both versions of missile combos into charge blast
Mii Gunner really is just a better Samus huh…
Pro tip: Charge Shot kills if you charge it all the way. I understand the utility in uncharged shots but it seems like people forget it can fully charge. You can get people to choke with just the fear of it alone, my friend.
@@peterduprey7286 no she is not lmao. Mii gunner is a lot worse than Samus.
@@CLSharpman5000 You can but near full charge kills almost just as well as full charge while still granting you the utility (movement option, combo and mixup tool) of uncharged CS. The almost-universal projectile shield damage nerf and BEEEEG endlag of full charge are why you don't see it being used very much.
While I see your point about bjr's cannon, one thing that you didn't mention was that after a while the ball will just fall down with a hitbox still activated. Many bjr players use it for ledge guarding when spaced well and can snipe recoveries with alot of knockback
adding to this you can cancel its endlag by grabbing ledge which opens up a lot for edgeguarding
Also it fuckin rocks don’t forget that
True to both of these
@@chriiis7002 Do not forget that it has a landing hitbox, which means the cannonball can hit a shield twice. If the move is charged up for even half a second, and if both hits connect on the shield, it’s an instant shieldbreak
@@Scarfy_0S didnt mockcrock mention it though
9:41 MockRock sounds like a literal villain here lmao
I kind of want a Spike tier list but maybe split into multiple parts since there’s a lot of them
Little Macs is EASILY S TIER! BEST SPIKE EVER LOL
Rosalina mains rise!!! Let's show mockrock that her spike is the best in the game
I second this Idea
Nah pyra’s is probably the most broken spike. Huge hitbox, goes through the stage, and kills early. Even the sour spot kills.
@@kohjoh4745 Rosalina mains sit down! Before I knock Luma off the stage
I’d bump up sephiroth’s neutral B because when he gets a shield break (so easy to do) he has the ability to literally kill at 3 %. (Well spaced N-B into F-smash (or F-tilt) and it’s even better and can kill from anywhere when he has wing.
This is trolling?
i agree it can zero to death so it should be at least one space better than f. no other charge shots kill on a shield break.
By your logic, Warlock Punch, Falcon Punch and Skewer are all good moves, right ? Since if you get a Shield Break you can either kill at 0% or does 60% damage with them.
Unless a character can break shield with a move with less than 6-frame start up (in which case I don't think the move that kill is the problem), breaking shield at the highest level of competitive play is never consistent. You also have to factor in perfect shielding (a.k.a. parrying). A move that is almost only used to punish Shield Break is thus never consistent, no matter how punishing it can be
@@hoanganphanle To be fair, for sephiroth specifically, shield breaks arent uncommon if you arent specifically avoiding it, as often sephiroth will use side b, then when they shield, they combine the might of the side B projectiles plus down smash into a shield break
I’d put it atleast in B tier. F tier is an awful ranking for it
I know this really isn’t part if the criteria, but I want it to be known that Kirby gets a fairly quick, sorely needed OoS kill confirm from center stage with Link’s arrow at 100% (jump -> arrow throw -> Fair 1 -> FSmash/USmash; reverse arrow throw is even faster) Granted, Link probably shouldn’t be getting close to your shield, but if he gets even somewhat close it works.
Actually, your own take on Kirby’s Smash copy abilities would be pretty interesting to see.
I've covered this in a video before, actually! A Kirby hat tier list is one I've gotten a bunch of suggestions for, I'm a little hesitant just because that's one a lot of people have already made in the past but I'm honestly not sure how much I should care about that, it may happen at some point.
@@MockRockTalk to be fair I haven't seen anyone really as technical and painstaking in their analysis on stuff like this as you. I'd personally be down to see a copy ability tier list from you.
Also I dont mean to be that guy but are you still going to be doing the signature move tier list videos? I do very much enjoy those.
Kirby with strong projectiles is honestly high tier; potentially top with certain projectiles.
@@vick7868 The last video on my main channel starts with a channel update/future plans segment, check that out to see what the future of MockRock looks like.
@@MockRockTalk I think a tier lost of Kirby’s Copy Abilities would be fun!
As a Byleth main, Failnaught neutral b is great in its uncharged form
You can turn it around up to two times, and if you know your timing you can hit the opponent with it while offstage so you send them away to be able to recover after
Also idk why but i often just randomly shoot a predictable arrow and they just stand there and get hit. I dont know why it happens so often but i land the arrows more often than i should
Yeah failnaught is pretty great if you can read your opponent
And most importantly, you can cancel it anytime and condition the opponent with it, something that he doesn't mention at all and that is used by even Mk Leo because the arrow is still menacing
@@krenw970 Same goes with any other strong move tho like warlock punch and gigaflare
Yeah. I play Byleth on occasion and I can confirm this is true.
As a Corrin main, his/her Neutral B is actually really good for those types of mix-ups as well. It can't be canceled, but it has multiple levels of charging which differentiates the speed, power, and stun effect duration. I totally trick people with this. Sometimes they think I'm doing a weak shot, so they spot dodge, but then they get hit by a bigger ball of energy and then chomped. I also use it to break my fall for a bit, inch down, then bite (this works at times, too). I *also* use the fully-charged projectile to stun someone long enough to run up to them and hit them with tipper Side B attack that will definitely K.O. at the right percents and areas.
@@onlookerofthings6029 but i say the speed and range of failnaught is what sets it apart and above both of those
I was kinda thinking about a tier list with all the grabbable items. (The ones that come from characters, for example Diddy's Banana, Mega Man's Saw.) Another amazing video from Mockrock!
This one's already in my idea document, don't expect it for awhile since I don't want to put 2 projectile lists right beside each other but I'd be surprised if this doesn't get made at some point.
I already know what would be in s tier
@@MockRockTalk 1. Thanks a bunch for replying, you’re really an inspiration to me, and 2. Will it include some obscure stuff like King K Rool’s crown?
@@phobixthething5692 Appreciate it! I haven't actually sat down and planned the video out, but I'd imagine that the crown would be included, yeah
@@MockRockTalk Alright, best of luck to you!
I would argue that the Flares should be in C tier, since it’s a decent shield break punish, and Sephiroth can easily break shields.
they kill very low AND SEPHIROTHS MO IS BREAK SHIELD
Yeah thanks to it, he can literally kill you at 0 from a shield break.
and mega flare kills at 100 lmao
Tbf Ganon’s Warlock Punch can ALSO kill at around 0 from a shield break. I wouldn’t say Sephiroth’s Mega Flare is that useful otherwise, but I can respect it.
@@RedWhaley14 bro cmon it 2 frames and is a good mix up between gigaflare
Mii gunners charge shot can also 2-frame some characters
thats just stupid
And hits more than half the cast while they're holding the ledge
Also mewtwo’s
and (specifically) dark samus
i disagree with byleth, it’s a great conditioning move because you HAVE to respect it, either by shield or jumping or parrying if you’re good. you can catch people off guard while edge guarding and get an early kill, and it does high damage despite the slow start up
MkLeo will use it for tech chasing sometimes, and every once in a while he'll snipe with it as an edgeguard. I don't think that elevates it from D-tier. "respecting it by shielding or jumping or parrying" is a non-issue at top-level, and really you could say that about nearly every projectile.
You could make the same argument to Warlock Punch: conditioning your opponent to either jump out of its range or shield it. And I don't think I have to elaborate on why Warlock Punch is one of the worst move
You only have to respect it when it's out though, because it's slow enough that players can either react to the start up at far distances or interrupt it at close distances. Whereas better moves require the opponent to respect the move even when its not being used, either because the startup is too fast to react to or because the reward for hitting the move is that high. Neither pf which applies to Failnaught
@@hoanganphanle i mean yeah but warlock and failnaught are in no way similar
That's exactly what i tried to explain about the blue flare from seph, the conditioning aspect.
I dont think he really understands it as a dark pit main himself cuz of the down b is reliable but he can stil be grabbed
I think you're underselling Sephiroth neutral b a bit. It's pretty good at baiting out reactions and pressuring recoveries. Do nothing and they eat a Mega Flare. If they go high and you can cancel it and go for fair or uair. Go low and potentially get spiked. I find the threat of the move is stronger than the move itself (same for Byleth). Plus Mega Flare travels super fast, covers a good amount of ground and kills. That said, looking at the rest of the list I agree it is outclassed by most other projectiles and probably doesn't deserve anything higher than C tier.
Relying on opponent to be bad is less effective then using your actually good options.
@@9forMortalMenTo be fair, relying on your opponent to mess up is like… 90% of zoning, tho. You dictate the pace of the match, you punish when they mess up.
@@FedoraKirb this is true, but zoning is also about setting up checkmate situations, where your opponent has too few options to deal with what you are doing. Your other tools as sephiroth can be used as the checkmate more regularly than flare.
I would put Byleth’s a little up cause it’s an excellent conditioning tool. It does amazing shield damage (which Byleth can take advantage of), travels very fast and it kills.
Heavy disagree with PK Freeze. With it being nearly lagless you can practically remain in neutral while pressing advantage/keeping you opponent in disadvantage
It's angle is unforgiving and if landed can essentially Combo into itself and iirc you CAN'T mash out of this freeze keeping the timing strict
Agreed! It’s a great tool when used in the right hands and you can really catch people’s habits with it too. The best part really is the lack of endlag and how that can be used to mixup your edge-guarding and and the way forces people to respect it in certain situations. Maybe i’m biased, but probably put it in high B tier honestly.
It can also kill crazy low given the right placement!
you can also stall offstage by spamming it, but the main reason its better than pk flash is because it forces the opponent to burn resources to avoid it which sets up for the rest of Lucas's edgeguarding tools
When you hit it it also feels like the opponent can't act out of gettign released immediately, most of the time placing a well timed fire just when they break free will hit and kill them if the freeze wasn't enough already. Also the fact that you can damage the opponent while frozen is pretty good.
Not a move that defines the character or anythign but when you fidn a use it can be really good, definetely better than Ness' neutral b
I just think putting it in the same tier as PK Flash is crazy lol
LET'S FUCKING GOOOO 27:12
BEST OF EVERY MOVE POST DLC VERSION
CAN'T WAIT
I think Corrin’s Dragon Fang Shot deserves a bit more of a nod as a juggling tool weirdly enough. Given that Corrin has some of the best juggling in the game, air dodge punishes are very common for Corrin players, and dragon fang shot actually kills people for air dodging. Cosmos has even used the move for that in the past
The way I use Jr projectile is as a sky drop attack. I launch it in the sky, go low below ledge and while my opponent tries to guard ledge, I'll fake an attack so they put their shield up and cannon ball hits shield, then the ground doing even more shield damage. Their shield pretty much pops. Never advise to use this move grounded. It's a projectile you always wanna use in the air.
kinda off topic, but man, your intro is seriously amazing. i can't help but rewatch it like 7 times every time i watch one of your videos-
It’d be interesting to see a ranking of movement based specials (mainly side-bs like Wario, Villager, Ike, etc.)
I think you have to immediately remove up bs out of the equation for this one, and even then, the line get pretty blurry for this category. Does Incineroar's Alolan Whip count for example? It's a movement option, sure, but I hardly see it used for that purpose.
@@king_alloy it’s mostly a Ko and recovery tool, as a movement option, on stage, it’s pretty laggy
YeH of course alolan whip counts it’s an intergral part of his recovery
Quick draw sucks because it makes you helpless, doesn't kill, and is slow to charge while being completely linear and predictable.
@@KaitouKaiju wait, what move is that ?
Lucas' PK Freeze will travel below ledge which can catch a lot of people off gaurd. And its low end lag means that air dodging too close to Lucas results in a punish.
Pop gun cancelling is so insanely good and imo puts it near A tier. Also ledge trapping with it is amazing as it forces an option off ledge and can combo into fair/bair for a kill
Ridley getting hit while charging is actually useful, when that happens it cancels all knockback meaning you can get hit by warlock punch at a high percent and still live, you can almost always avoid it but in a edguarding scenario you can just not get edguarded also if your shield is low and your set up so you can’t go anywhere having that option is useful.
But it also has huge lag and the explosion does no damage, so the enemy always has time for a big followup even if they weren't ready for it. I tried to make it work, but getting weak spotted is rarely actually advantageous even if it seems like it in theory.
It saved me against dedede hammer once that was cool and funny.
Another thing to add about aura sphere is that it’s super good at ledge trapping since you can use the charge to cover an option and the projectile hits under the ledge if you’re over like 70%. This also means it 2 frames so you get some pretty early kills that way.
With the game's infamous online, I would suggest making a Wi-Fi tier list, like moves that get the most out of online lag (zoners in particular are infamous online for that reason). You did briefly touch upon that aspect in some videos, but with how the world has been throughout most of Ultimate's life, I feel like it deserves a list of its own.
i personally think toon links arrow is a tier. super slow travel time with really good endlag means it covers a lot of space for toon link while being hard to punish in neutral. combined with his insane bombs and good boomerangs its really good
I'd like to see a Spike tier list
I paused at 8:42 to make a "you spin me right around" joke, then realized that I paused it at the perfect time to see Dark Pit aiming it through the monitor, straight at me.
Would be really fun to see a big moves tier list
I would love if you rated all tether grabs in the game. They're especially interesting due to the differing aerial uses for them all being fairly unique.
I definitely think that giga flare should be C tier because it could be used to punish a shield break and will kill at zero if you use f smash at the same time and when sephiroth is in one-wing, it is pretty easy to get shield breaks.
Hey! Zelda player here, albeit amateur. I think A tier is fair for Phantom, but I do want to point out one small way in which a lot of people severely underrate it - as a _defensive_ option. Yes, it throws out massive hitboxes and controls a lot of stage space. However, where I personally get more use out of it than anything is simply body-blocking opponents. The body of the Phantom itself is a semi-solid wall while charging, as well as between its hitboxes ending and it disappearing; it can be rolled through, but not walked or dashed through, in a similar way to the Pits' down-B. With careful play and some well-timed B-reverses, it can create an immense amount of openings not just by threatening with its hitboxes, but also by unexpectedly restricting enemy movement and "pinning" them in place when they expected to approach.
Yes yes yes! It saved me from dying by taking so many attacks that would've otherwise hit me. I totally agree with this
"Failnaught, more like fail-a-lot!"
That got me so good.
"Fail-lot"
Dad jokes are amazing lol
I think if you consider that you can perform a Displaced Phantom Slash with Zelda, then the move should be S tier. Because if you do a retreating displaced Phantom, you can charge Phantom while avoiding a good amount of projectiles because Knight protects you. If you do it forwards, you can be perfectly setup for ledge traps, or you can go off stage and leave phantom on the edge to ledge guard covering off stage space. It has counterplay for sure, but because you can mixup timings which make a big difference, move around with Knight fully charged etc. I'd say it's S tier. Certainly I think it's better than the rest of A tier at the least.
I wasn't totally sure how to handle the Phantom tech, this is an issue that comes up sometimes with more advanced techniques for characters I don't play myself. Generally in these cases, I watch a bunch of tournament sets of the character being used, and for Zelda, I honestly rarely actually saw displaced Phantom. Admittedly, this runs into the same issue I talked about in the video, the sample size for a lot of characters isn't that big and the best players of their character aren't necessarily the most knowledgeable about their tech. That said, if I'm struggling to find good examples of a technique, compared to Charge Shot go boom, I find it hard to place them right next to each other.
I agree with you NoNameNate. As a Zelda main this tech makes an already stupid move even more stupid.
@@MockRockTalk That's true, I rarely run into other Zelda mains who can use displaced Phantom, and I am disappointed that Ven, the best Zelda, doesn't use the tech. That's all to say that I do understand your reasoning, it is hard to argue with Charge Shot go brrrr😂
I would put it in its own special tier between A and S, A+ tier
I think even the ledge trapping function is good enough for S tier! Zelda can cover every option with it. You can even 2 frame with it. Or two frame with d tilt which will connect with phantom. Plus you have the different charges which all have different uses. The earlier ones can set up a tech, the over head slash covers people jumping in. It can be used to break shield. It combos. It can be used when returning to stage to cover yourself. It can be used in edge guarding. It can protect against moves. It has a wind box which can move players into a charged up smash or cheese recoveries if they go above the ledge. It can be displaced forward or backward. You can charge it whilst falling through a platform so it forms on the platform. It gives Zelda stage control. If forces limited options for the player. And it’s intimidating to play against.
In terms of dins fire, it’s niche for sure. Should only be used when you’re off stage or your opponent is off stage. Off stage it’ll protect you from players setting up ledgetraps which is essential for Zelda since she struggles getting off the ledge. As an edguarding tool it forces air dodge or jump. Air dodge is worse if you’re high because then you’re left open. Zelda charges a phantom and that’s it for you. But if that jump is read you would die insanely early. 50%. If you’re recovering low and you can edguard and you take the hit you’ll probably die. Would bumb up to B tier
16:36 "Not really the list this move belongs in, but I do have to include it, it is a projectile, you can pocket and reflect it."
*Talks about Zapple four seconds later*
10:21 WAS THAT THE BITE OF 87%
Honestly Robin's Thunder charges rarely matter that much in my experience. It does sometimes suck but because it charges into different moves with different uses Thunder is usually a move you plan to use rather than a move you'd miss out on if you were out of charges with the possible exception of no charge Thunder which you can usually play around not having for a few seconds until you have it back. The only other move I care less about running out of is Nosferatu but that move's so situational I often forget I even have it.
Same. Nosferatu is just free discards, but Thunder isn't something that matters too much when it's gone, it only matters when it's there. Also, the discards from Thunder can be nice.
You're probably gonna get tired of hearing this really soon but neither Zap, Zapple, OR Kazap are projectiles.
Well, Kazap *does* summon a lightning technically
But yea I wouldn't have included them here
_Technically_ that's correct, I know that, but I attribute that more to the game being weird, they still clearly feel like projectiles and fit the spirit of the list. I'd include Joker's Gun in a broader projectile list as well, for example.
@@MockRockTalk Wouldn't Eruption count then, too? The fully charged one fires a pretty sizeable blaze, and all charges have an upward blast that's somewhat disjointed.
splat bomb is easily a tier for me, the way you can completely invalidate some recoveries and force ledge situations and ledge traps make it a top 3 inkling move for sure
Inkling without N-air U-air B-air would be kind of wack. 0_0
@@ivrydice0954 fair enough, top 5 then
The useful thing about Ridley's Boss hurtbox on his breath attack is that cancels all knockback, regardless of Ridley's damage percentage, which can make it a situational survival option, it's not ADVISED cause of the heavy lag you'll have after but it COULD just save you
I understand your reasoning for Bowser Jr's Cannon but, in my experience, it's a really powerful tool when used in combination with his Mecha Koopa. You can use it to set traps and limit your opponents space to work with so you can more easily predict their movements.
Although, it should be said that my experience is very casual. While me and my friends are pretty good I wouldn't say we are anywhere near as good as any of the pros. I'm sure it's a very different case for them.
PK Freeze is A tier. It is used in neutral as an anti air that if that air dodge through you get a free hit. It helps you mix up your recoveries a lot. It is highly mobile so it can catch aerial spammers and when you send lucas in the same direction in the air with the freeze it can be used to cover yourself. Way better than the sample size of pro players would suggest.
Pacman's bonus fruit is the reason why I decided to main the character back in Smash 4. It's nice seeing it get an S tier here
Completely forgot about mega flare 😅 that’s the one that gets the most use for sephi, mega alone should have put it in B tier
I didn't forget? I talked about the middle charge in terms of a 2 frame option.
@@MockRockTalk that’s when you were talking about Giga flare, the only things you talked about was Flare and Giga flare.
Edit: And if you did, you glossed over it so fast I might have confused it for Giga flare talk but even then, mega as so much more use then the other two glossing over it so quickly made it seem like it’s never us
Edit 2: I mentioned the 2 framed but realized I was talking about flare so I just deleted it
Something you forgot to mention with Gunner, is that it’s really easy to start Gundashing (reverse fairing for hella speed) when recovering by b reversing chargeshot, jump to cancel, and immediately fair.
As a sephiroth main, i would personally bump up neutral-b to c. In my experience i've gotten a lot of use for its second version, and the killpower of its third version makes up for its high risk, and is much more useful in a casual enviroment. Just my thoughts.
I would personally agree with this, as a Kirby that loves to eat Sephiroth for this move. The 2nd charge seems weirdly spammable. And even just the threat of how powerful the move is, the fact that you can cancel it at any time makes it great for conditioning your opponent.
Agreed. I'd also bump up Corrin's Neutral B because it has multiple levels of charging, which differentiates the projectile's speed and power. This allows for a ton of set-ups and mix-ups. It can even stall Corrin in the air a bit, before inching downwards into the bite (so you could float over someone's attack then hit them back). The fully-charged projectile can stun someone long enough for a side B pin or sweet-spot hit in certain situations. It has quite a lot of uses for a slow-starting projectile.
Always a good day when mockrock uploads. Keep up the great work!
I think Sephiroth's neutral B is severely undervalued. mid-charge is great if you're trying to get back on stage (forces the opponent to work around it), and full charge forces the opponent to fall into another trap. even if you time it perfectly, Sephiroth can react to the option you choose and punish you for that anyways.
Also cancelling the full charge and then hitting the opponent with another move is a great conditioning tool
YOU ARE JUST DEAD WRONG ABOUT GIGAFLARE: that move is so intimidating because it’s cancelable and the blue flare is fast. It’s not really that you’re gonna hit the opponent with it but more so for conditioning jumping, reflecting and shielding which seph can punish and if he manages to break your shield(even if you’re bowser) you’re just dead, so it’s at least A-tier
Gigaflare also instabreaks shield if in winged mode as well, aside from covering a lot of options if spaced well, and kills at early percents as well.
Megaflare can force an airdodge offstage, which can let you not worry about that during ledge guards, and can also cover some recoveries if spaced well.
Flare is just kind of there, you can throw it out occasionally to bait or get some damage, or cancel it into a jump if you read a jump
Well, conditioning is good but it's something you can do with a lot of projectile and a lot of it comes from matchup inexperience. I can see it being B tier max but it's certainly not an a tier, considering how good chargeable are in general. And as he said, none of these moves are bad, but you need to rank them. The move that I think is not F tier is dragonfangshot, it is surprisingly great at catching jumps, especially in advantage state, is really versatile and overall more comparable to paralizer.
You cant cancel it ones its gone into gigaflare tho. Also, conditioning can be dine with most projectiles on the list
It's not really that fast is an understatement.
2 whole seconds for ledge trap that's less rewarding than most of Sepy's edge gaurding.
@@artimist0315 yeah thats what i was gonna say B tier solely for Blue Flare/Mega Flare alone because of the conditioning; it's actually a unilateral neutral tool that dictates the pace of the match against characters with no absorber or reflector. Even then, if you time it where the explosion will be right in front of their face, it cant be absorbed or reflected they will eat the explosion and the blast has a huge radius still
I think that rosas is a tier. I can understand your placement, and I can understand that it is apples to oranges, but along side the fact that it is so vital to her play style, I see a surprising amount of use with the actual projectile aspect. Uncharged can play an important role in turning around at your opponent when counter-zoning, and the fully charged version kills way earlier than one would think. But I also see that many people don’t actually believe that it has a hit box, so that may have something to do with it. But again the a placement is very respected and I love these videos so much. Keep it up man!
You’re completely wrong about Sephiroth’s neutral B. It’s by far one of the best ledge trapping moves in the entire game. It really makes it so your opponent has to work around it, which in itself is super challenging to do without getting caught by the projectile.
I wish corrin could charge the paralyzing ball part of the move, with the drawback being you still have to bite after you fire it.
Top 10 best spikes in smash, that would be a cool video.
Something that I think should move Corrin's dragon shot up a tier or two is 1. The stun scales with the percentage and 2. Because of that you can get a really easy tipper pin confirm if you know how to space it and at higher percents (around %100-110) you can even get it if the dragon shot hits from across the stage. Granted it is somewhat difficult to learn the spacing but once you do you have a somewhat easy kill option if your opponent likes jumping which in ultimate is very common.
In regards to Luma shot, looking at how it gets used when we only look at the projectile aspects, a Kirby with Luma Shot can be an absolute nightmare due to the lack of a hurtbox to stop it, meaning it basically beats anything that normally could stop a fully charged projectile, and sometimes even reflectors fail to actually reflect it far enough because of that tight distance control.
If we look at it in the context of Rosalina herself having it, it's mostly used in advantage like the non-projectile non-stoage charging moves; a glorified mid air smash attack. And if we look at it in neutral, it can be used decently as a mixup to setup desyncs or grab confirms on foes who shield it - the odd case where your opponent shielding the move could easily be more beneficial than them getting hit
You may also want to consider the neutral B when luma is gone (often called "wand wave") in that case, it's even more apples to oranges, but it does mean you now have access to a free B reverse button, and a spammable windbox that can be used against certain recoveries to almost guarentee the foes' demise.
All in all, A tier does seem about right
Din’s fire is fantastic for edgeguarding, forces airdodge and very little endlag which she can really capitalize on. I’d definitely put it above peanut pop gun at the very least.
he definitely underrated it, super safe edgeguarding tool i've snagged tons of kills with
Flare's underrated. Didn't even mention it allows Sephiroth a free 0-death. Gigaflare kills Pichu at ledge with optimal DI with no follow-up.
Great conditioning tool, reversing momentum, etc. A situational move that gets you a free kill once every few high level games can still be a good move and this one isn't even that situational.
Played a tournament vs my brothers, a friend came to play as well and we were seeded against each other. He ragequit because of that move alone. (Though this is low level play.) :p
It kinda funny when you said "most characters would trade their neutral special for this" when talking about gunner charge shot, when a lot of people trade that for another neutral special.
That might say more about those other moves than it says about Charge Blast :p
@@SSM24_ yeah it does, it just think it's funny that the one character that could actually switch this to be there neutral special has a better one (debatably)
As a Plant main, trapping someone in a poison cloud with jab or pummel is rare, but cathartic. Landing poison cloud for more than a second just feels *good*.
I'd put Lucas's PK freeze into high B tier or low A tier.
It's one of the safest projectiles on a shield (-15 if uncharged to -5 at full charge) that locks a character into an animation. It is just nuts on shield or hit. & most characters can't even punish a partially charged pk freeze on shield 3 character lengths away from Lucas. It actually lingers (4 frames from 1) & enables combos from 0-30 with normals or leads into more pk freeze chains or DJ pk fires for nasty offstage sniping gimps (it even has 23 frames of endlag after the hitbox is over & it takes 5 frames from the startup to detonate, making parrying it nigh impossible because of the massive delay mixups). Lucas being hit on the frame you release the special button does NOT stop freeze from detonating either.
It bypasses the annoying attack/defensive option landing strategies that most of the cast opts to do & makes them forfeit stage control or risk potentially getting gimped afterward. It's transcendent, meaning only full body intangibility, invincibility, or reflector hitboxes can actually avoid it safely, especially if one is cornered, has limited landing mixups, is slow in the air, or has meh landing options.
the endlag on it is so low that lucas can actually use it to bait predictable landing options or force normal getups on ledge as well if he has the time to set it up. It forces many characters to heavily alter their recovery trajectories or flat-out die.
It's a good chargeable projectile, because once it's out during Lucas's advantage with snatching landings or general corner pressure, it can command lots of respect & cheese while being very risky to punish.
This man used prime hunter music while talking about charge shot, and charge shot was damn scary in that game too. Coms could land that move in your face, and it charged so fast that they could throw it out at any time.
Solid tier list. Couldn’t find myself disagreeing with these placements.
Fun Fact about Ridleys Boss Weakpoint Thing: It cancels out every knockback you would receive. This does include Litte Mac's KO Punch if it connects just right.
I have to say that Bowser Jr.'s cannonball is way more useful than you state it as. The purpose of this move is not just to force an option but also to make an everlasting presence due to it having a lingering hitbox, its falling property, the high priority over many other projectiles, and the fact that it does not stop when shielded. These properties do several things. It makes breaking shields and covering escape options from shield possible. It makes it a menacing edge-guarding tool and a complimentary recovery tool when falling from the top corner, which is common. It makes it an unexpected anti-zoning tool when it powers through other projectiles. It also makes it a solid tech-chasing tool, especially on platforms that limit the effectiveness of tech-rolling. While the charge-up does force more attention to positioning, the cannonball takes advantage of that to have a much higher skill-ceiling instead of a simple fast kill move.
So, fun fact: I actually did a similar thing as with Diddy, I went back after my initial recording session and said "you know what, I think I underrated this one a bit, I'll move it up to C tier." So then I went to find a nice clip of Bowser Jr. using the cannonball in a way that supported my point...and I literally couldn't. I watched probably 15 matches looking for a moment where a Bowser Jr. player prioritized Cannonball over pulling Mecha Koopa and that decision actually payed off in some meaningful way, and I never found it. So I deleted the revision. I'm not saying it never happens, but it doesn't happen enough.
Failnaut is so fast when you take in to account it’s kill power that it deserves minimum B tier, sephiroth’s neutral B is a zero to death shield break punish with forward smash. They both are better than or as good as diddy gun.
Wow, I’m gonna keep this list in mind while playing Kirby
The fact that I can do forward throw into charge shot is insane. And he adds 1.2x damage multiplier
I feel like MR is almost… over qualified to talk about smash. He’s so articulate and detail oriented
Not really, im 7 minutes in and he’s made some pretty shit opinions. Sephiroths grapes are not S tier, and pop gun is definitely not b tier. Literally anything out prioritizes the peanuts, it has a really niche use that isn’t even that great. Like, he showed it being used against luigi and that honestly seems like one of the few characters that actually might have some small issues with the peanuts. The best thing about pop gun is cancelling it and he didn’t even mention that. It’s also not very difficult to avoid Sephiroths grapes. The annoying part is that you have to shield or retreat to ledge, but it isn’t that bad. If you just knock Sephiroth away, or just run, then it isn’t a big issue. Just don’t be an idiot and get caught lacking by the downsmash. No idea how could put grapes and charge shot in the same tier
@@carldalord Having even one shadow flare on you means you're getting interrupted in 5 seconds. Sure you didn't get hit, but you had to take some shield damage or retreat or stop your combo or whatever which breaks your momentum and gives Sephiroth time to breathe. Landing a shadow flare basically guarantees a second free attack for your opponent to deal with.
@@carldalord you can disagree with the content, but you can't deny the man really puts some thoughts into it and argument for his point relatively on the fly. Mad props for that.
@@nocturn333 I can’t remember a time where his grapes messing up my combos was a big issue. Also it’s really easy to avoid it. You don’t see good Sephiroths using his grapes a lot. Sephiroths grapes just shouldn’t be used most of the time. Terribly small hitbox too
@@ark8021he’s making really basic summaries of these moves tbh. Literally anyone can do this if they’ve played smash for a few hundred hours
I've got a couple comments about this, mostly about Corrin and Robin. For Corrin, a lot of their advantage comes from people not knowing the matchup, and a charged dragon fang is a really good skill check. It will kinda break shields if they just expect to shield the projectile so hold shield, it's a decent ledge trap to make your opponent stay on ledge longer which lets Corrin instant pin to kill them below ledge, or f-smash if they're still hanging there. It's also pretty good at anti-zoning which is something Corrin has a lot of issues with, while it is slow, it does clank with most other projectiles.
For Robin, they struggle to kill a lot of the time because their kill moves have meter, and you'll probably run out of it once or twice by the time your opponent has enough % to kill. That's where Elthunder comes in, it's fast, doesn't require a lot of meter, can be charged in less time than it takes to land from a full hop, scales extremely well with %, and even if it doesn't kill, it'll knock your opponent offstage pretty easily at anywhere above 100%. Kills starting at 140 ish which isn't bad at all for a really fast, safe, small projectile. That's the main use you'll probably see Robin players get out of it, other than maybe using arcthunder for shieldbreak setups, or the uncharged thunder as a decent poke projectile. It's not S-tier, but it's got a lot more use than just thoron.
Chargeable projectiles are just so good in general. They're situational at worst and amazing at best. Even the worst ones are still VERY good in their intended use cases.
“I’d call it a poor man’s charge shot”
*looks at mii gunner*
I love zero suit’s neutral special because you can mix up if you want to shoot the fully charged version or the tiny uncharged version so this keeps opponents scared
In my opinion, I think that Sephiroth’s neutral b could’ve been put a little higher. Sephiroth’s standard flare isn’t really that great, but it does have some combo potential, mega flare can be used after a shadow flare detonates, and gigaflare is one of the best shield punishes in the game because you can also fit a forward smash during the explosion which does roughly 70% damage. This is also really useful considering the fact that Sephiroth has almost zero problems when it comes to shield breaks
I had a weird idea for a new tier list
What about ranking every single “gimmick” in Smash? So, for example, Kirby’s inhale, Steve’s crafting, etc
Obviously the criteria for what counts as a gimmick would be tricky to nail down though…
Love these videos man, honestly. Keep it up!
you KNOW we're thirsty for that alternative video (I haven't checked if you made it yet)
popgun is also really good for it's tech usage
I see a lot of people talking about Sephiroth's neutral B being underrated, but boy I think Corrin's Neutral B is also underrated. That one move alone can throw people off like CRAZY.
It has multiple levels of charging that differentiates the speed, distance, power, and stun duration of the projectile and it can B-reverse. I shall add that the bite is optional pretty much optional. I tricked several players into spot dodging too early, only to get hit by a stronger bolt (and at times a large bite). The fully-charged bolt can stun someone long enough for Corrin to run up with a Side B attack that can KO or deal some extra damage. It also breaks Corrin's fall and stalls him in the air for a bit before he lowering a bit more and finally biting (this actually works if timed correctly).
This is a high B tier move at best.
Surely Sephiroth's Flare deserves some extra credit for allowing him some ridiculous early kills off of shield breaks, by itself or paired with Fsmash, as a character who can get shield breaks with relative frequency? Like, while that aspect wouldn't save the likes of Warlock Punch from being labeled an F tier move, Flare itself starts with a good deal more usefulness, as a projectile that can be canceled for mindgames and conditioning, and then has the ludicrous kills on top of that. Having that move is arguably a large part of why his shield damage is so threatening, as his Fsmash alone wouldn't get him kills as early or as reliably when platforms are involved.
I've only ever played Smash three times (funnily enough, it was Brawl at my therapist's office) and I still came here for my boy Rock (Mega Man).
bowser jr's canonball is a fantastic move for forcing a low recovery where jr's edgeguarding is at its best tho. because it's so slow it can control a lot of high space, not to mention the fact it has a falling hitbox, not to mention the fact you can cancel the end lag fully by grabbing ledge.
canonball is what enables up b edgeguarding, and that shit's broken
You cannot say that links arrow is b teir and flare is f teir. The arrow is basi ally useless in comparison to boomerang and bomb. Flare is used more often by sephiroths than arrow is for link. It's also used as a pressure tool to approach with because of how slow the base charge is. Also even if you can time a getup, sephiroth can wait for your getup with f tilt or grab.
I disagree so much with this list that I don't know where to start. Even so, these vids are great. Keep them coming.
displaced phantom and RAR displaced phantom covers for the majority of Zelda's mobility issues when it comes to using phantom. she can move behind it to protect herself from most projectiles and make her even harder to approach while charging phantom, and Zelda can also move away from a charging phantom to chase someone after launching them while still setting up a devastating punish with huge coverage.
i love this video just because if the nostalgia the metroid prime hunters background music gives me
Corrin's dragon shot is actually a good jump from ledge trump, it stalls in the air and the shot pushes it back slightly so the chomp will hit those below the original blast. It catches alot of people and lets you get off edge
I think Zelda's phantom should be in S tier personally as it has really good defensive utility if you can learn how to get behind it while it's being summoned. It can cover you from other projectiles and even force your opponent to whiff and give you an opportunity to punish them.
Before watching the video: zelda's down b has to be S tier. It is good for neutral, edgegarding, reverse edgegarding, it has much different properties based on how much of a charge it has with the 2nd highest covering so much vertical space and the highest charge covering almost all ledge options. There's a delay after the charge that can let zelda get tons of combos, or you can mix it up with no delay, it does a ton a shield damage and down b + fair can break shields super easily. It kills well, it tanks hits for Zelda, it is easily the best move in her kit
Corrin main here, tap neutral B hold for full bite is one of Corrin’s best kill confirms, arguably a better punish for whiffed smash attacks at higher percentage too
I liked the list although I think there were a few instances where you were finding it difficult to separate the projectile from the mechanic (Luma and Aura Sphere being the main ones) and actually Kirby was your friend here, because he doesn't get an aura mechanic (Kirby's Aura Sphere treats him like having around 70% aura all the time, or something like that, not totally sure), and Kirby's Luma is just a projectile, and it is very oppressive. No real follow-ups or kill power, but it's free, almost riskless damage and a way to control the play area a bit. Or assassinate the opposing Luma from a distance xD
That intro tho- I thought I was watching a channel with millions of subscribers
Short Hop Woosh is a frame 10 projectile with transcendent priority that launches opponents to Hero's back. Hero gets enough height to land on high platforms (triplats). Use it preemptively to hit with late active frames, works quite well! Zap, Zapple, Frizz and Frizzle are awesome space making tools to allow more menu pulls and tech chasing option coverage. Kazap and Kafrizz kill very early with Kazap being a mixup to call out airdodges and rolls after using zap and zapple alot. Kafrizz is also enormous making it super easy to edge guard high recoveries. Even though they all consume MP, you underestimate how easy it is to get it all back save kazap and kafrizz. I’d say zap and frizz family be A-S tier while whoosh family take a spot somewhere around B tier.
Glad to hear we're getting an updated best Smash Moves!
I still remember when you said that you were gonna exclude the ones that had mechanics around them, that made me want to figure out how moves like that would work mashed together.
I looked at it as they should only effect moves they already effect, so having one of Hero's specials wouldn't cause specials from another character to cost MP, same goes for Tomes.
Limit wouldn't power Up a special not from Cloud. Ect.
Olimar and Steve need a special in order to use other Specials. Min Min needs down special to change her neutral special- and as for what her neutral special is, it's the tilt attacks that come from her right arm. Side special would be that tilt and also the smash attacks, so really Min Min's "neutral special" is absolutely worthless.
Although for Ice Climbers, that one was tricky. I ended up deciding on that one to have two of this... character, and halving all damage and knockback in exchange for having two of this character. Of course, the alternative is having simply the one ice Climber special versions- but that's boring. So I locked the double character behind Ice Climbers up special.
This was pretty good. I would personally move a couple things up or down a tier but overall it was good
Do you ever think you're gonna upload these lists onto the Tierlist website? I feel like it would be interesting to see other people's takes on these
One other bit of singer with Sephiroth's 2 moves is that if you get 3 flares on something and the shield it, timing a down smash with the flares is a near guaranteed shield break from full. I think I've gotten more breaks with Seph than the rest of the roster combined.
And then Giga flare is a nasty break punish at mid% and higher.