BALLS would've brought them brand recognition. WTH were they thinking!? Part of the reason why wow and lol are so big is because of their names. Both are abbreviations of commonly used phrases on the internet so people are more likely to encounter lol and wow stuff from their search results. They both capitalized on them by creating engaging cinematics that would even make normies consider picking up their games.
I think the important part was that PD took down the website that hundreds of thousands of people used without warning, and left an ad bashing DotA in its place, leaving the DotA community scrambling in its wake. The rest of it is standard squabbles and bad communication, but there is no way that one act was done with "good intent"
It was opportunistic. But at the same time, much of what the ad said was true and were long-standing pain points for the community. As for the rest, yeah, just drama mongering by angry people who have chips on their shoulders. I don't think the video host is anywhere near impartial, as he very clearly sets up the audience to distrust and consider Pendragon as a villain from the get go.
If I control the website I can take it down anytime lol. Might be a “dick move” but if it was illegal you could’ve sued him. But it wasn’t so all you get is some bad pr
I'm surprised this history doesn't cover a really important fact - that before pendragon closed the dota allstars website, he spent a month asking for donations from the community to develop dota only to shutter the website soon there after one everyone had donated lmao. I remember so clearly discussing with my friends how stupid of an idea it was to donate and we openly predicted if the developers would just run with the money, and lo and behold they did. A lot of the saltiness of the community is rightfully placed one you consider they feel scammed out of their money.
"I'm going to remain impartial and unbiased throughout this video. So anyway this scumbag thief screwed over this collection of kindhearted friends". Glad Grubby caught on, that video had some glaring omissions of facts
>League players usually never deride other games Literally every time Grubby closes LoL and starts DotA. Very vocally, too. Also, I played a lot of League in a lot of regions, so pls bro. We both know it's a lie. >for some reason were always really salty >League didn't become popular because Pendragon took down a website Yeah, sure, Pendragon taking down the site did a lot of harm to the then-nascent dota community though. And it was on purpose. The video focuses on the "stolen hero concepts" a lot for some reason, but it wasn't the main beef back in the day. The problem was that this site THE place to go, the main community hub - you could say, the only one. A lot of people just lost contact with each other. A lot of good ideas were lost. The platform for the early competitive dota was also lost. There was no prior warning, nothing. And of course Pendragon was aware it would be like that, and he had a lot of time to notify people, but he instead went for a sneaky kill. It was obviously done in bad faith (him withholding the archive is yet another proof). Overall, it's not the part where he promoted his game directly that made people mad originally (a lot of folks were actually curious about League at first) - it's the part where he decided to actively harm his old community, presumably to lure some people in. And if you still don't think it was the intention, think again - another fun fact that few people remember anymore is that soon afterwards he uploaded "10 reasons why LoL is better than the alternatives" to the Riot forums that effectively was portraying DotA specifically in a negative light. And the post was pinned on the main League site for the few first years. I will concede, however, that nowadays most people in the DotA community just stupidly ape the hateful sentiments instinctively without really knowing any of that. But the thing is, this attitude didn't come out of nowhere. Pendragon DID try to harm and fracture the community, and it was for the sake of his new project, hence the hate for that project.
As a player of both the old school Dota and League today, a bit surprised that people still holds their grudges up to this day especially since both are owned by giant billion dollar corporations now.
It's mainly a one way relationship from dota players. League players were not around during the time, so if they do know that dota exists, they don't have any feelings or thoughts about it. Basically league players are Thanos and dota2 players are captain marvel. Being in both communities it really is just Dota 2 players being annoying about it. Everyone hates league, even hots players. Dota players are just more obsessed.
@@KolyaUrtzthat's BS most of the league players don't even know dota and what's more a dota 2 streamer. You just need to see grubby's chat when he started playing LoL he even recieved a superchat from a dota 2 player to stop playing the game.
@@maxxrr7389 Grubby is a dota steamer so that is expected. It happens 100% of the time when a lol streamer not only opens dota but whenever name dota is mentioned. Whole chat starts fuming for no reason. Also, do you not see that you are claiming that lol players are just a bunch of ignorant kids? How tf would you not know what dota is??? Lol literally spawned from it.
do people forget icefrog was activelly working on HoN, he then left HoN but its not like they both were looking at outside propositions for long term solution of the innevitable wc3 limitations.
Funny thing this is what I kind of hate about Dota2 community. The game is great and a lot of fun but they are the most biased and blind community I have ever met. In this very video the creator won't stop bitching about Pendragon but then turn a blind eye at the fact that Pendragon mentioned that Icefrog was also working in another MOBA. He did mention it because he was reading the post Pendragon wrote but decided to ignore it and just give more negative comments about the man the community hates. I'm not defending Pendragon and I couldn't care less about him but common. DOTA2 is a highly difficult game, surely the people who play it could stop 3 seconds to analyze the information given. The content creators I know that are truly impartial seem to be so small and the Dota community won't stop crying about stuff when it comes to league. Sorry for the rant.
lets also not forget that apart from icefrog working with S2 on HoN, they decided to carbon copy all dota abilities and heroes which eventually led to its downfall. Icefrog himself handed us the beta keys via a proxy middleman on clan dxd (whoever remembers remembers)
Pendragon: did alot of great early work for dota. Then was contacted by Riot, wanted to make a new game based on Dota. Proceeded to claim Dota as his, shut down the Dota forums oit of nowhere. Kept hiding the archives while actively stealing ideas to use with his Riot game (LoL). Talked alot of crap on redddit and other forums. And people still think what this guy did "wasnt that bad"? Guinsoo was on board with Pendragons scehemes all along. Icefrog did alot more for Dota than anyone else. He kept dota alive for so many years. But in the end he also closed down the dota forum (playdota and getdota), to sabotage the dota community and bring people over to his new game Dota 2. In the end, all of these guys did Dota dirty to benefit their new project. Icefrog just came out better from it.
Maybe it was an asshole thing to do, but people get really tribal over this to this day, especially from the Dota side. As if Pendragon insulted their mother or something.
@@peffiSC2source Understandable. I don't have a stake in these arguments (I play both League and Dota with friends), but I can understand OG people that have been playing since WC3 Dota to be pissed.
@@SadFace201 But realistically, first of all, there aren't all that many such people left and second, if someone still holds a grudge for 15 years because a guy took down a website from their favourite video game, they need to realign their priorities in life.
no one is "holding a grudge", no one is going to his house to beat him up, but when the discussion comes up everyone's gonna voice their opinion @@peffiSC2source
@@Snake66874 Do me a favor and look up the definition of "holding a grudge". People can of course voice their opinion, but I can also tell them that their opinion is childish and stupid.
most of the time people don't mind others stealing or rather, taking inspiration from them. It's just when they see their ideas being successful for others, when they are not doing so well for themselves. and it's a catch 22, because when you aren't doing well for yourself, you aren't in the position to do anything about it. No time, no money. Definitely no lawyer.
"Sir, we can't think of an original design for our heroes like S2 did". "Just take Blizzard's designs, switch the colour a bit and rename it, like destroyer to devourer, windrunner to windranger, done!"
Its especially funny that you laughed at devils urethra because he was probably one of the more famous content creators for the original dota. Not for being toxic or anything like that, but rather because he was a rapper and made tons of songs about dota and its characters that went pretty viral in the mid 2000s, DESPITE having that completely ridiculous name. His channel still exists today and his music is still... pretty good considering the context.
Well, much of conjectures from Pendragon's character were done because he showed his character many times and it wasn't any good. Considering now niche 2009 W3 mod drama is among other worldly matters, there is plenty of evidence for PD's not-so-nice approach when it comes to Dota community. Or so it seems.
Well there was always icefrog. I knew him personally and remember all the good days from aeon onwards. Yes there were some ... gaps in time given by him in game support, that had led to some ... insecurities on the community side, but i guess that was normal. We were just too pumped to notice. PD is a clear coorporate thieve btw, good for him. A sidekick mainly. I guess if it was not him someone else would have stolen the apple. This is how nature works. Me personally i liked HoN more than valve dota 2 back in the day, never touched LoL out of respect.
I am just thankful that all of these incidents and drama lead into Valve owning and continued the true legacy of DotA itself. A good game engine , owned by a company that is independent(not a cash grab of china's tencent) and currently leading the PC , and known for making good games such as half life.
but the game sucks, the competitive scene is dead, no new players coming in and all the changes are either confusing or pointless. To me, Dota died when capitalism kicked in.
yeah ikr the cash grabbed valve who allows refund system on steam and literally demolished their yearly money making machine named battlepass in dota 2 every year removed in 2023, thats crazy. Also the live steamchart stats player count that other games too shy too show, dota 2 is still stuck at 700K player count average for the past 10 years holy sht this game is dead compared to overwatch. smh, Valve already made billions no need to cater their game for new kids.
"Cash grab" drama aside, and we can talk about all the wrong things about Riot, but money grab? No way. They started the free to play trend in a world where 60€ games+DLC existed. And while we could argue on how many people would probably spend more than 60€ on League, people without resources had the chance to play the game for free.
thats because riot knew how powerful f2p is. I do agree that lol isn't a cash grab because riot kept investing in it. A cash grab would be like Overwatch 2, gets released, big hype, stops updating a year later@@CalaTec
I remember this back in the day. It was sizeable drama, which quickly fizzled out in the League community as its player base grew and people in League stopped caring about rivalries with other games. I remember Heroes of Newerth being considered the real "threat" to LoL in its initial stage. By the time Dota 2 came around, some people thought that players would jump ship for the more professionally made game, but that worry too faded quickly because League's playerbase was ballooning so quickly. I was really surprised when I saw in some random comment section on youtube raving about the "Pendragon-incident" and how Riot tried to sabotage Dota. That person was genuinely upset about something that happened over a decade ago and in the grand scheme of things probably didn't impact much anyways. I seriously doubt there are many players really involved in the scene who 1) personally witnessed this and 2) are so immature that they still care about this. League didn't get popular because Pendragon took down a website. It became wildly popular and successful because it was one of the first games offering a f2p model that could run on a potato attached to a hamster wheel. I was around in many different e-sports scenes and Dota players and Starcraft players for some reason were always really salty about League's success. Easy game this, Pendragon sabotage that... It feels like a collective inferiority complex by these communities. League players usually never deride other games and more often than not celebrate successes like the TI prize pools or e-sports legends from other games doing something noteworthy. It's ironic that the game known for its toxic community rarely shits on other games' communities. Fun fact about Pendragon: Back when League of Legends had a forum, players could easily talk to Rioters who would engage directly with the still small community. Threads that would regularly pop up were players asking why they were being banned. Riot didn't really have a system in place to detect people breaking rules afaik, so likely it was a Rioter being in games of players and seeing others do banworthy stuff themselves and banning those accounts, or digruntled players making screenshots of incidents and sending it to Riot support. Anyways, Pendragon oftentimes replied to the threads where people asked why they are being banned, posted the chat logs that got people banned and lectured them on their bad behavior. For a while this became somewhat of a running gag, that Pendragon came to the forums to smite the evildoers.
>League players usually never deride other games Literally every time Grubby closes LoL and starts DotA. Very vocally, too. Also, I played a lot of League in a lot of regions, so pls bro. We both know it's a lie. >for some reason were always really salty >League didn't become popular because Pendragon took down a website Yeah, sure, Pendragon taking down the site did a lot of harm to the then-nascent dota community though. And it was on purpose. The video focuses on the "stolen hero concepts" a lot for some reason, but it wasn't the main beef back in the day. The problem was that this site THE place to go, the main community hub - you could say, the only one. A lot of people just lost contact with each other. A lot of good ideas were lost. The platform for the early competitive dota was also lost. There was no prior warning, nothing. And of course Pendragon was aware it would be like that, and he had a lot of time to notify people, but he instead went for a sneaky kill. It was obviously done in bad faith (him withholding the archive is yet another proof). Overall, *it's not the part where he promoted his game directly that made people mad originally* (a lot of folks were actually curious about League at first) - it's the part where he decided to actively harm his old community, presumably to lure some people in. And if you still don't think it was the intention, think again - another fun fact that few people remember anymore is that soon afterwards he uploaded "10 reasons why LoL is better than the alternatives" to the Riot forums that effectively was portraying DotA specifically in a negative light. And the post was pinned on the main League site for the few first years. I will concede, however, that nowadays most people in the DotA community just stupidly ape the hateful sentiments instinctively without really knowing any of that. But the thing is, this attitude didn't come out of nowhere. Pendragon DID try to harm and fracture the community, and it was for the sake of his new project, hence the hate for that project.
@@AthenaTennosN >Literally every time Grubby closes LoL and starts DotA. Very vocally, too. Also, I played a lot of League in a lot of regions, so pls bro. We both know it's a lie. I can only speak for NA/EU, since I've been around those communities. Maybe the tribalism is more pronounced in places like Eastern Europe, where Dota is more comparable in popularity to LoL, I don't know. I also can't speak for thousands and thousands of anonymous viewers on Grubby's stream. I haven't been on Twitch for a while but I usually perceived those simple tribalistic jabs on that website as jokes and stoking the fire for entertainment. Stuff like NAYeah, sure, Pendragon taking down the site did a lot of harm to the then-nascent dota community though. And it was on purpose. Sure it was on purpose, but it was also his website. It sucks that the Dota community took a hit, but realistically an alternative could and probably was created shortly after. You can't both claim that Dota was a nascent community which suffered greatly from this, but also that it impacted a massive amount of people. I am not saying this wasn't a dick move by Pendragon, it sure was. But in the grand scheme of things this was merely a small setback and hopefully learning-experience about community-resilience and decentralization. No one really was harmed by this, but the way people talk about this is blown way out of proportion, especially going after Pendragon as a person so viciously for such a long time. And the people who claim to have made champion designs ripped of by Riot shouldn't have posted their ideas online on a forum owned by someone else. That's all I'll say about that topic. > he uploaded "10 reasons why LoL is better than the alternatives" to the Riot forums that effectively was portraying DotA specifically in a negative light. And the post was pinned on the main League site for the few first years. I believe I found what you are referencing. You can look it up on the wayback-machine on July 2010 if you look up the league of legends website and click the button "LoL and Dota". Please check out for yourself if this is really as "bad" as you remember. To me it really looks like a completely new game trying to explain what it is and differentiate itself from its competitor. It's also impossible to say who created that post. If you meant something else, maybe you can find it. I don't remember such a post being pinned on the forums though, let alone for multiple years. And I have used the forums since late 2009. But it was so long ago, I might be mistaked, I admit that. >But the thing is, this attitude didn't come out of nowhere. Pendragon DID try to harm and fracture the community, and it was for the sake of his new project, hence the hate for that project. But again, how many people from back then who actually were impacted by this are still around in the Dota community? And of those people, do they really still hold such a large grudge for over a decade? Seems very childish to me. Those who really were impacted and maybe in the short-term lost accces to their favorite pastime/hobby or even online-friends due to Pendragons stunt, had a right to be angry back then. But in my opinion this doesn't warrant the level of vitriol and for this grudge to be held for so long. Most players still hung up on this joined the game long after this happened. But hating Pendragon and telling of his betrayal of the Dota community to push for the evil and behated competitor game has become community canon for Dota players. To many its seared into their identity as Dota players, that they have to reject everything League of Legends, in large parts because of this minor online-drama that happened when most people bothered by it were still in preschool. That is the point I am trying to make. I am not defending the actions of Pendragon per se, but I am calling out the reaction which has been going on for far too long.
iirc, if you read the full TOS for LoL, there should be a very long section where it talks about how they are allowed to steal ideas and not be faulted for it. Kind of like facebook, but rather, anything you post about LoL, any suggestions, ideas, etc. can, and will be taken, without any mention of the original inspiration. And if you have a problem with specific content they have stolen, you'll have to go through a long process where they have to find a mediator, and probably can take years. Riot is seriously scummy. I have no problem with the game. It's just Riot that sucks. Just read the ToS. Nobody reads the ToS.
Riot Games (League of Legends): Riot allows fans to create art using their intellectual property, primarily for non-commercial use. They grant a limited license for fans to use, display, and create derivative works based on their IP. In exchange, Riot can use these fan creations freely, without crediting or compensating the creators. This open policy promotes fan engagement but doesn't offer a direct path for monetary gain. Valve (Dota 2): Valve also supports fan-created content but operates differently. They use the Steam Workshop, a platform where creators can submit content for Dota 2. If Valve incorporates this content into the game, the creators receive monetary compensation through a revenue-sharing model. This approach provides a more structured and potentially rewarding avenue for creators. The key difference is that Riot's policy is more about freely sharing and using fan creations, while Valve's approach is more commercial, offering a financial incentive through the Steam Workshop. As for the creation tools, Dota 2's Steam Workshop integration provides a direct platform for content submission and potential monetization, which is not present in League of Legends. This reflects the differing philosophies of the two companies in engaging with and rewarding their fan base.
@HPblu3 I thought the same but found that valve has tools to lets u make things and thus u and them can benefit from it. Actually riot is far more better than any other company valve at top for sure since they have the tool to make money for u and them. But riot even without tools they allow you to use their ip as a fan only and in exchange they use your fan arts which is ok tbh. U know that the upcoming season changes made by a previously league fan artist he started doing fan arts then riot liked his work and invited him to work with them many rioters started like that and I respect riot for this.
What is legally punishable is one thing. Exploiting community creations for Individual profit is another ... and that people dislike this behavior a lot is absolutely understandable.
Man, the chat during the section about copyright was so off, I feel like most people don't know anything about copyright, if you write on a forum post about character named X that does Z,W,Y that is instantly yours without any need to register, although registering it makes contensting it's your much easier, if anyone ever does a character X that does Z,W,Y and you can prove you created it before them you can sue, this hoewever does not stop anyone from creating a similar character that does things that closely ressemble the original creation as long as it's not an exact copy. That goes for like any other type of work that can have a copyright, it's also how when you commission an art piece the copyright is entirely of the artist unless the rights are waived, granted or licensed to the commissioner, it doesn't need to be registered and it's automatically granted a copyright.
Kind of, your thinking of copyright correctly and that would apply to a book or script etc... but a game and it's programmed characters falls under patent. I can't come up with the idea to virtual reality and post about it, then do no work on creating it and sue/blame etc... the person who does invents it. Coding for a long time was a gray area between the two but even in 2010 it had firmly fallen on the side of patent. The only claim to copyright would be if the lore or imagery was stolen from them
Nope. Game mechanics fall under patent, not copyright. And patent law requires that the invention be novel, so posting it in a public forum is basically throwing away any rights you have to the idea.
As ML player, if LoL and DotA didn't mess up with both their bad gameplay design and bad roster balance designed to make at least one bad teammate ruin both team and their fun in the first place, then the popularity of ML shouldn't that high based on their monopoly that capitalizes Riot and Blizzard's messes But that's just me connecting between ther dirty history and the result of ML's success. Correct me if I'm wrong
Lol, no matter what you want, everyone wants money. Making a game out of your resources (both time and money) is very consuming. The problem is not money in itself, the problem is when you need to make money centered decisions on the game you wanted to make out of love.
This video doesn't actually give the full context of what Guinsoo/Pendragon did. DotA back then, was as close to an open source game as you could get. Anyone could start developing their own version (and there were hundreds), if your version was more fun, it became the one people played over time. By creating the website with a community forum that people could gather in , they (I believe accidentally) became the defacto developers for this style of wc3 mod, because the forums offered a form of community and advertising that was not typically seen back then for many custom games. However, Guinsoo's version of the game was awful. It was quite literally nothing like what DotA later became, and he would eventually stop developing it and left it with IceFrog to ultimately die. IceFrog in tandem with the dedicated dota allstars community MADE DotA into the budding competitive genre that it eventually became over many years of development. I can't reiterate enough. The version of the game IceFrog inhereted IS NOT DOTA as you now know it. So when Guinsoo and Pendragon come back to the community that was ultimately flourishing without them, take all of their ideas and effort, sell it to a company, and then take active measures to destroy said community that they STOLE FROM, and hide all evidence. I think it then becomes understandable why there is so much distaste for those of us who remember those times. The reason IceFrog working with S2 and then Valve is different, is because IceFrog was an actual member of the community that made the game what it was. So him working with a company to make the game better was welcomed by the community, because the community understood that it would be better for them as well. They already had a working relationship with IceFrog and IceFrog had a long history of positive community interaction. (He was much more active in communication back then) To say that this was simple bickering over the rights to a budding genre is nonsense, because neither Guinsoo nor Pendragon had any influence on the actual game or genre. Guinsoo made one of many Aeons of Strife style mods and then stopped working on it almost immediately. Pendragon made a good forum. That is all.
29:00 The real play is having a dev account that other players can look up, and also a secret main account with moderator permissions. The hard part is avoiding power tripping in in-game chat and drawing attention to yourself, so it'd be for the best to say nothing and just ban people you found distasteful; gaining satisfaction from them never knowing that it was you who got them. Extra precautions should be made to never post anywhere with the same username as the main account, and, especially, don't allow the account to contain any identifiers that could link back you.
Pendragon and guinsoo went to riot sold DotA allstars and used the website as one big ad campaign Later they trademarked DotA allstars and sold it to Blizzard so they can cuck Valve out of making DOTA 2 (valve was forced to call it simply DOTA and not defence of the ancients) Keep in mind nobody had any moral right to take and sell DotA without the consent of all the creators , they did anyway ..
I'm 17 minutes in and the idea that this is an intentional ploy to destroy Dota by 1 guy seems frankly absurd. He's 18 years old. He owns the site. He just got hired by a small indie company that he believes in. In what world would he NOT promote his new project on his site? The video treats this guy like he's a 40-year-old businessman who should know better. This is the early 2010s. Back then everyone treated their personal sites like a blog.
it was private forums, not everyone could join the beta tester / dev forum section where those were exchanged since not everyone used iRC back then or other chats
Very nostalic, i was there when the site went down. I dislike this man til this day xD with a passion. Pendragon scammed the the community thats all, he was a dick about it, taking down the site which was very important to the community its not about legal concerns
@@OsnofAhcor every pendragon post on reddit is minus a million karma. icefrog is a beloved icon. you can imagine conspiracies here, it is what it is though. sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
well done Grubby for kick-up a shitstorm that have died a decade ago lol, better bring HoN and Blizzard into this too. I knew because I use to spend my entire weekend arguing people online! And seeing people still hold false belief on these games till this day is saddening.
e.g. dota is harder, but in truth, pvp games have no "easy-hard", because the difficulty setting is entirely dependent on your opponents, you can always outplay someone by getting better at something. I would argue at the time dota is harder because players are more experience and the game has a lot less new players, thus the expectation of "basics" would be higher than league. But this is also why lol is kicking dota's ass, because newer players kept the game alive for longer.
@@iHaveGrudgeAgainstUT I hate when people say Dota2 has better ESports and higher prize pools when the community is literally the one funding and raising the prize pools for Dota2.
@@joevaldez4889 and what's the issue with that, from the beginning the community that was made, also thrived and supported the game to get it to that level. Shouldn't it be the same with league then if that's the case? if not, then what's the issue?
@@joevaldez4889 and dota2 pools all the prize into 1 tournament, where LoL has on-going seasonal tournament all year round with 4 different major leagues (lcs, lck)
Yep, the whole "Dota-allstars LLC" deal was essentially a bunch of nonsense to get it on the books that DOTA-Allstars was owned by Riot Games so that if Icefrog or Blizzard tried to make their own DOTA then Riot could sue and destroy any competition.
as someone who frequented DA, it was a huge deal to us. Pendragon will forever be remembered as the traitor and backstabber. Also for context, Icefrog used to credit changes and hero's to the ones who suggested them back in the day
People calling it drama until it happen to them. You dont know how much love and experiences theyve shared and suddenly one situation goes down south and the game that theyve loved and played, work on years of passion has being degrading and desecrating to every inch just to make it sink. Just imagine youre in their shoes and your yt channel got demonetize and all comment section got you dissed. How would you feel? Maybe the community back then felt that way. DRAMA he says LoL.
Its pretty obvious that the people going to riot didnt "make mistakes", the deliberately tried to hurt dota any way they could when they couldve just moved on
Im a league player and its pretty obvious they did that and they won so noone cares lol league will always be bigger than dota and riot will keep getting bigger and bigger.
I wouldn't say "they won" because Icefrog did very well for himself, they won the lawsuit that is shown in the video and he got to build the game he wanted without having to resort to any of those practices, inadvertently or not. Just because Riot made a more commercial game that has more players, don't mean "they won", they tried to ruin Dota and they failed at that, so in that way, they lost.
@@j0nasbsIt really depends on what they're goals are I mean League in terms of it's popularity and effect on the gaming culture has surpassed dota. Even grubby said that he was being influenced by league without even playing it.
@@maxxrr7389 lol. dota is a milestone, a revolution, will always will be. which game has more players currently doesn't mean a single thing. League is a casual 20 minutes experience of diluted moba for young adhd generation. some other game will surpass it someday. DOTA will always be DOTA. If you're talking about Grubby you can also mention that he likes League much less than DOTA that's why he plays it so rarely while he plays DOTA almost every day.
I don't know much about this drama or whatever it's supposed to be, but the person who made the video seemed quite biased. Most likely because they themselves are a dota 2 player. Also, from what I've seen, It's mostly the dota community bringing this stuff up.
Of course, the Dota community is going to keep mentioning this. They are the ones who got fucked over, not the league community whose best interest is to sweep it under a rug
terrible video lmao but good reaction. pretty boring drama. icefrog knows PR better and stays silent. in the end created great games -- Blizzard is the real moba loser here
I think the worse thing pendragon did was the destruction of the website which per his own admission was a community project. The real problem to me is not legal but a beyrayal of trust. If u want to know the history of Dota here u can go and find another by this guy. Icefrog isn't exactly a hero cause he sold out too to Valve. At the end both companies have made profits on both sides and something that was community owners was turned into a sell out. They hate PF particularly cause he was the first to do it, the most extreme to do it and they're ok with ice frog cause he tried to create a community.
This Is very interesting. When I look at the patent pending the blizzard bought it like. I remember long time ago Blizzard lost all the rights. And that's why you see that map better to change for a Warcraft reforge because they don't want to have the same situation where another game is born in their Warcraft editor lol. To me, that makes sense that they lost it this time around. So the next time around anybody creates a up brand new game idea they can automatically take it. So to me those are lost the first time around and may have found a way to get it back but that's not the way I remember it
That was nice and entertaining video and guy was definatley not biased!(just like me lmao.) Now for the longest comment (spoilers it will be some league bashings,lol.) i've ever posted online. Having played both games before i wanted throw my take on the internet so here, im not active player in either of them anymore except some arams time to time with firends and watching tis, both games work for what they try to achieve and great games for their own community and in their own niches of course league is more popular and successful one having many reasons for that mainly riot knowing what pr is and more importantley having motivation for it, game itself being more accesible and easy to get into especially now after a decade where it has established pop culture place for itself with arcane and other stuffs and they doing it again with valorant on the other hand i think what valve done with dota 2 is amazing in its own right with ti's, true sights, and majorly game itself over the time. imo what kept this game back from more commercial success is the lack of motivation and intend on valves part as they really do not need it to be successful beyond minimal requerments, yes they tried at first for exapmle with ti but after reaching some point they were satisfied with it. i mean those guys just stopped devoloping their own games because of steam solo carrying them, so i think they really do not give a fuck about lol having more player than their own games or any other stuff and still dota 2 is always at top by steam playercount and that says something so yeah they are very diffirent and simillar games at the same time but what i want to say lastly to those who did not try, know or really dont having a taste for dota is that from just pure game quality perspective lol really have nothing over dota 2 im sorry if this triggers you or something but thats the truth. Its just the better one, from ui to sound to graphics to animations to gameplay itself. I mean as i said i play arams time to time so i have recent experience with lol too, every time i open that launcher damn its really sucks (it'll gonna get little petty here) i mean other day i tried to lower the menu music level so i did that from settings but guess what it did not happened because for some reasons sound effects control the menu music not the music setting like wtf ? And how after a decade this client is still this bad in every aspect not the mention all the other quality of life features or the lack thereof anyway the summary: game shows its age and its not a wine im sorry. Rito upgrade your game pls❤
Seems childish honestly, if he made a website, and it was bought by a company. Company wanted to use the thing they bought. Doesn't sound any more scumbag to me. Sounds like normal business. Companies want to get value out of things they pay for. "shock!" The "difficult to bring back online" thing for why people are crying about the 3 years instead of the week, is Riot might not have wanted the thing they bought to not be exclusive to them. Once they sold it to blizzard he put it back up that same week. So.... clearly riot wanted to use it.
Without even watching this I can tell you that Dota 2 players will bring this up in every conversation about League, meanwhile League players don't even know who Pendragon is, or Dota 2 for that matter.
@@Taunt61Insecurity on both sides. One side is insecure because they aren't the popular, famous celebrity. Other side is insecure because they know their game is built by a bunch of frat boys.
@@arthurchen6464 nah. dota players just don't like where the genre has gone. old school fallout players might hate fallout 4, fallout 76. that's not insecurity, that's simply having good taste. same with dota and league. league players get insecure when they hear about dota, because they feel they are playing the more simple, shallow game. hence all the allusions to dota being dated and shit. don't get me wrong, league is a good game. it's fun, played it a lot in the first seasons. but compared to dota, it's just like eating crackers vs a three course french dinner. that's just a fact.
Pendragon took this concept and turned it into a scam. Typical career move by a greedy person, but shows why big ideas need IP protection laws in place. (Protect the consumer). The asking for donations a month before shutting the website down was such a scammy move by Pendragon.
omg king can you d more videos like this about dota vs league history / drama? i personally played dota for the first time a few months ago for a few weeks and had a lot of fun but league was the first game i ever played so idk but love you and your videos daddy xD can u play Yuumi support jk
My take on this as a person who played dota in 2005 to present... at the time when pendragon soft promoting league in 2007 or 2008, people were bored of the warcraft engine, and it was a big deal to have this moba played with its own engine, but dota players were not ready to accept a new game it must be dota... during this time blizzard also took to the court for the claim of DOTA game... and the dota players were lost. Pendragon made the best possible solution to introduce moba players to an alternative where dota will be shutdown by blizzard... and MOST OF US (friends) were happy that there is an alternative... there was no offense what Pendragon had done, it was important he introduced us to LOL moving forward... in the end they just wanted to cash in on the idea... nobody owns the idea at that point but everyone wants to buy it...
As someone who claims to have "played dota from 2005" you completely omit Heroes of Newerth" , which was the original successor to the map, and where most players moved to, prior to Dota 2...
@@Optii87 not in the place of which i come from... Dota 1 is/was the only game that let say has no substitute. When all these variants came, dota players knew it will take sometime to balance heroes and the games... so we did not moved to any game, we stick to dota1 until dota2 came... LOL came with a paid price tag, dota 1 and dota came with free to play. Learning new heroes and mechanics takes time and new earth did not become famous in the place where i live... so it is completely ommited on my account and recollection.
Grubby a rioter in bronze banned me for three days for picking toplane thresh It was not meta at the time, and still is not meta now, but it is often times a successful pick. Certain rioters are in the bad habit of doing this regularly.
@@AkshayPrasadrocks no the first time I was flamed in champ select, all game, and banned immediately during match results by bright moon Phreak banned me after flaming me at 15:00-match results Both times they explicitly said “we don’t care what you want to do we’re in control of the game” and banned me.
Yeah PD just ruined a childhoods of many people. They created community around game that grew so big it strated its own genre. And this guy out of nowhere just shut it down while posting mockery at that place of that game. No biggie just a few million kids comunity center shut down and replaced with sign "you guys are dorks" for no real reason. But really no real legal problem happend. (and yes these kids are now the adults that hate LoL as it was the game promoted on taht stupid sign)
I played WC 3 in early 2000', but I never played with mods or didnt engage with the "online community" because I couldnt speak english back then. I started playing LoL in 2011 because my friends invited me to play with them, only later I found out that there used to be a mod for WC 3 called "DotA" (I actually found out about it from the Basshunter song which is literally called Dota lmao) however even though I never played DotA, I still got to know about Pendragon from DotA (and Dota 2) fans who would get insanely upset whenever LoL would get mentioned or compared to DotA, in twitch chat, on reddit etc. Tbh because of that almost blind hostility and hatred I never tried Dota 2 because while LoL is known as a game with lot of in game toxicity, vast majority of the time it starts and ends in game, but the amount of negativity from Dota 2 fans online kinda pushed me away from even giving Dota 2 a try. Another reason why the hatred from Dota 2 fans seems so pointless is that for us, as a customers/players, having more moba games as an option on market is only better -> it makes the games push each other to be better and better while if there was only one moba on the market, the game would quite likely get more stale with less updates and worse monetazitation (u can see this with some other games like Total War games series or Destiny 2, which have basically a monopol in their own niche/genre and I wish they had a competition so they would have to start trying again instead recycling old content and assets over and over.)
"Stale with less update " is literally the state of dota2 and most dota2 players like that stability in the game. As for monetization you can get the both the lowest and highest price because compared to leagues standardized price dota2 has a demand based pricing.
How can a low effort copy of another's work "push each other to be better". And Riot actively tried to kill Dota 2 in its early days, is that pushing to be better for you? All the hatred for lol is justified. Customer needs healthy competition, and riot didn't offer. They didn't want to compete so they chose to take down the opponents instead, until they become so big that noone can survive in the market but themselves. In fact it would've been better if riot had never existed, there were so many games like Dota that had great potential, only to be overlooked because they are not lol.
I mean, Riot literally actively tried to KILL Dota! So there is a reason why so many people at the time were upset about it, they tried to kill their Game. I know this comes from your perspective and ignorance on the subject, but once you know, both your points actually go against Riot. The reason LoL is popular is because they nailed all the right spots on marketing, but the game itself is so bad its just sad how influential it became.
@@KitsuneFaroe Feel free to post any proof of Riot trying to "kill" Dota because I have tried to find it and stuff like this is only mentioned by Dota players on steam forums. Also dont u think its dishonest to say that a game which is played around the world such as LoL has kept its popularity for +10 years just because of marketing? Now that is an ignorant thing to say
the amount of takes in the comments from league players who know fuck all baffle me since why speak up against the people who are pissed when you know fuck all about the incident?
I used to work with Icefrog for some time back in 2009 and all I can say is that the people there were toxic, full of themselves and we had drama every week.
@@GrubbyTalks we only had the forums and the beta forums on icefrog's website (playdota). Apart from that there was clan TDA on Us server which had the most tedious join process and toxic mods and admins.
Omg, dota community so cringe 😂 do better 🗿 why even crying over someone success... Same idea won't even make it as the same result, LoL could run on potato pc and its free was the catch. Only NA, EU, basically westerner whose fumming about it 😂. The rest part of the world rejoice on new moba that runs free 🗿 i played LoL since S1 f2p until todays, and have 300+ skin on first account, 200+ on second account and 400+ on my main account right now 🗿 bunch of Tft stuff's too...
IMO most of the drama is based on people who can't accept we don't live out of good will, LoL became the game that DoTA was never going to be, but there's a lot of spiteful people who would never ever accept that DoTA as a mod was a deprecated idea that lasted too much.
Yep. If we give Pendragon the benefit of the doubt, it's not crazy to see how his idea of doing what's best for the Dota community is to turn it into a real game. Of course he might still be a jerk with an ego, but honestly what do you expect from a volunteer mod of a gaming community?
I used to play sc1 and w3 back in the days and later on started with dota1... i remember when dota 2 came out but it was pay to play and league was free.. that was the ending of everything. if dota2 were free in the beggining league would have never be a thing
In its early access it was, but I remembered I got a beta key from my friend, and got a buncha beta keys myself. After it was released though, it is completely free
Ok but if this pendragon guy paid for the website, it's kinda his right to advertise whatever he wants no ? Kind of considerate of him to even discuss and ask if he can imo
I'm not entirely sure how a lot of people seems to think thia fact makes someone completely screwing over an entire forum full of thousands of people without any prior notice whatsoever is okay. "Oh yeah he had the rights, I guess it's okay if this guy that claimed multiple times that he would use this site to further our community, blatantly screws us over now haha xd" Seems like a lack of understanding of how very basic human interactions work.
@hiphop4eva374 Well, because he didn't do anything nefarious, he didn't change it to a league website . He just advertised a new project he was working for in the same space. He furthered the community by paying for the website for ages without help, and when he could have made a little money, his friends told him no. Seems like a lack of understanding of how a basic business works. Leaving the website operational was nothing but a kind gesture I sure wouldn't give.
@@saki1333 - He literally did change it into a league website while taking the original site down, it says so in the video. If you're willing to put down a non-profit and community oriented site that was put up with the help of potentially hundreds of users just because your co-workers didn't approve of everything you were doing then you're as emotionally immature as that guy.
HotS was going to be called Blizzard AllStars but all the employees started calling it BALLS to we changed the name to Heroes of the Storm.
And the players would be called balls enjoyers
What a mistake
Naming it the same acronym as heart of the swarm for starcraft was sooo much smarter
BALLS would've brought them brand recognition. WTH were they thinking!? Part of the reason why wow and lol are so big is because of their names. Both are abbreviations of commonly used phrases on the internet so people are more likely to encounter lol and wow stuff from their search results. They both capitalized on them by creating engaging cinematics that would even make normies consider picking up their games.
I also remember that blizzard announced a game called "Blizzard Dota" before and it was before valve announcing Dota 2
I think the important part was that PD took down the website that hundreds of thousands of people used without warning, and left an ad bashing DotA in its place, leaving the DotA community scrambling in its wake. The rest of it is standard squabbles and bad communication, but there is no way that one act was done with "good intent"
It was opportunistic. But at the same time, much of what the ad said was true and were long-standing pain points for the community.
As for the rest, yeah, just drama mongering by angry people who have chips on their shoulders. I don't think the video host is anywhere near impartial, as he very clearly sets up the audience to distrust and consider Pendragon as a villain from the get go.
Becuz facts speak for themselves lol devs have been atackingdota for their whole lifespan
Fck em
If I control the website I can take it down anytime lol. Might be a “dick move” but if it was illegal you could’ve sued him. But it wasn’t so all you get is some bad pr
I'm surprised this history doesn't cover a really important fact - that before pendragon closed the dota allstars website, he spent a month asking for donations from the community to develop dota only to shutter the website soon there after one everyone had donated lmao. I remember so clearly discussing with my friends how stupid of an idea it was to donate and we openly predicted if the developers would just run with the money, and lo and behold they did.
A lot of the saltiness of the community is rightfully placed one you consider they feel scammed out of their money.
The classic pump and dump.
So they're not salty because "he's a traitor, fk riot games", they're salty because he's a scamming POS. Reasonable
"I'm going to remain impartial and unbiased throughout this video. So anyway this scumbag thief screwed over this collection of kindhearted friends".
Glad Grubby caught on, that video had some glaring omissions of facts
>League players usually never deride other games
Literally every time Grubby closes LoL and starts DotA. Very vocally, too. Also, I played a lot of League in a lot of regions, so pls bro. We both know it's a lie.
>for some reason were always really salty
>League didn't become popular because Pendragon took down a website
Yeah, sure, Pendragon taking down the site did a lot of harm to the then-nascent dota community though. And it was on purpose.
The video focuses on the "stolen hero concepts" a lot for some reason, but it wasn't the main beef back in the day. The problem was that this site THE place to go, the main community hub - you could say, the only one. A lot of people just lost contact with each other. A lot of good ideas were lost. The platform for the early competitive dota was also lost. There was no prior warning, nothing. And of course Pendragon was aware it would be like that, and he had a lot of time to notify people, but he instead went for a sneaky kill. It was obviously done in bad faith (him withholding the archive is yet another proof).
Overall, it's not the part where he promoted his game directly that made people mad originally (a lot of folks were actually curious about League at first) - it's the part where he decided to actively harm his old community, presumably to lure some people in. And if you still don't think it was the intention, think again - another fun fact that few people remember anymore is that soon afterwards he uploaded "10 reasons why LoL is better than the alternatives" to the Riot forums that effectively was portraying DotA specifically in a negative light. And the post was pinned on the main League site for the few first years.
I will concede, however, that nowadays most people in the DotA community just stupidly ape the hateful sentiments instinctively without really knowing any of that. But the thing is, this attitude didn't come out of nowhere. Pendragon DID try to harm and fracture the community, and it was for the sake of his new project, hence the hate for that project.
Beautiful.
According to the facts
As a player of both the old school Dota and League today, a bit surprised that people still holds their grudges up to this day especially since both are owned by giant billion dollar corporations now.
It's mainly a one way relationship from dota players. League players were not around during the time, so if they do know that dota exists, they don't have any feelings or thoughts about it.
Basically league players are Thanos and dota2 players are captain marvel.
Being in both communities it really is just Dota 2 players being annoying about it. Everyone hates league, even hots players. Dota players are just more obsessed.
Dota is owned by a private company of gabe while lol is owned by a huge faceless chinese corporation...
@@Tabnito yet whenever a streamer boots up dota 50% of chat is "shit game" or "copy of lol omegalul"...
@@KolyaUrtzthat's BS most of the league players don't even know dota and what's more a dota 2 streamer. You just need to see grubby's chat when he started playing LoL he even recieved a superchat from a dota 2 player to stop playing the game.
@@maxxrr7389 Grubby is a dota steamer so that is expected. It happens 100% of the time when a lol streamer not only opens dota but whenever name dota is mentioned. Whole chat starts fuming for no reason.
Also, do you not see that you are claiming that lol players are just a bunch of ignorant kids? How tf would you not know what dota is??? Lol literally spawned from it.
do people forget icefrog was activelly working on HoN, he then left HoN but its not like they both were looking at outside propositions for long term solution of the innevitable wc3 limitations.
Funny thing this is what I kind of hate about Dota2 community. The game is great and a lot of fun but they are the most biased and blind community I have ever met. In this very video the creator won't stop bitching about Pendragon but then turn a blind eye at the fact that Pendragon mentioned that Icefrog was also working in another MOBA. He did mention it because he was reading the post Pendragon wrote but decided to ignore it and just give more negative comments about the man the community hates. I'm not defending Pendragon and I couldn't care less about him but common. DOTA2 is a highly difficult game, surely the people who play it could stop 3 seconds to analyze the information given.
The content creators I know that are truly impartial seem to be so small and the Dota community won't stop crying about stuff when it comes to league. Sorry for the rant.
lets also not forget that apart from icefrog working with S2 on HoN, they decided to carbon copy all dota abilities and heroes which eventually led to its downfall. Icefrog himself handed us the beta keys via a proxy middleman on clan dxd (whoever remembers remembers)
12:00 This is like a story of a Jedi Master who fell for the temptations of a Sith lord and joined the dark side.
Pendragon: did alot of great early work for dota. Then was contacted by Riot, wanted to make a new game based on Dota. Proceeded to claim Dota as his, shut down the Dota forums oit of nowhere. Kept hiding the archives while actively stealing ideas to use with his Riot game (LoL). Talked alot of crap on redddit and other forums. And people still think what this guy did "wasnt that bad"?
Guinsoo was on board with Pendragons scehemes all along.
Icefrog did alot more for Dota than anyone else. He kept dota alive for so many years. But in the end he also closed down the dota forum (playdota and getdota), to sabotage the dota community and bring people over to his new game Dota 2. In the end, all of these guys did Dota dirty to benefit their new project. Icefrog just came out better from it.
even though icefrog shutdown playdota forums, at least dota 2 IS DOTA
@@chefmike3794 how you mean? DotA and DotA 2 are two different games
@@kongenselv4998 due to the conflict with the bliz, it was no longer possible to continue working. Yes, and 2 is a direct development of the first
LMAO Blizzard got a random L in this mess
The more the better lmao
it's pretty stupid when people think something is okay just because it's legal
I think the main point of the video is that while whatever Pendragon did is not technically illegal, it doesn't make him any less of an asshole.
Maybe it was an asshole thing to do, but people get really tribal over this to this day, especially from the Dota side. As if Pendragon insulted their mother or something.
@@peffiSC2source Understandable. I don't have a stake in these arguments (I play both League and Dota with friends), but I can understand OG people that have been playing since WC3 Dota to be pissed.
@@SadFace201 But realistically, first of all, there aren't all that many such people left and second, if someone still holds a grudge for 15 years because a guy took down a website from their favourite video game, they need to realign their priorities in life.
no one is "holding a grudge", no one is going to his house to beat him up, but when the discussion comes up everyone's gonna voice their opinion @@peffiSC2source
@@Snake66874 Do me a favor and look up the definition of "holding a grudge". People can of course voice their opinion, but I can also tell them that their opinion is childish and stupid.
I mean Sven was called Arnold Schwarzenegger at one point
15:05 that paragraph under the one in red "Icefrog, always the people's champion..." is pretty sweet.
I was incredibly active in the forums back in the day, even left hero ideas, which gladly haven't been used. XD
I was also super active I never posted hero ideas but loved reading other peoples
most of the time people don't mind others stealing or rather, taking inspiration from them. It's just when they see their ideas being successful for others, when they are not doing so well for themselves. and it's a catch 22, because when you aren't doing well for yourself, you aren't in the position to do anything about it. No time, no money. Definitely no lawyer.
"Sir, we can't think of an original design for our heroes like S2 did". "Just take Blizzard's designs, switch the colour a bit and rename it, like destroyer to devourer, windrunner to windranger, done!"
Definitely why DOTA fans have League living in their heads rent free
you mean league of lesbian fans? lmao, we don't care about the dota tutorial game lmao@@valmiro4164
Its especially funny that you laughed at devils urethra because he was probably one of the more famous content creators for the original dota. Not for being toxic or anything like that, but rather because he was a rapper and made tons of songs about dota and its characters that went pretty viral in the mid 2000s, DESPITE having that completely ridiculous name. His channel still exists today and his music is still... pretty good considering the context.
Well, much of conjectures from Pendragon's character were done because he showed his character many times and it wasn't any good.
Considering now niche 2009 W3 mod drama is among other worldly matters, there is plenty of evidence for PD's not-so-nice approach when it comes to Dota community.
Or so it seems.
Well there was always icefrog. I knew him personally and remember all the good days from aeon onwards. Yes there were some ... gaps in time given by him in game support, that had led to some ... insecurities on the community side, but i guess that was normal. We were just too pumped to notice.
PD is a clear coorporate thieve btw, good for him. A sidekick mainly. I guess if it was not him someone else would have stolen the apple. This is how nature works.
Me personally i liked HoN more than valve dota 2 back in the day, never touched LoL out of respect.
Who is icefrog
Bro what a grounded take holy shit.
I am just thankful that all of these incidents and drama lead into Valve owning and continued the true legacy of DotA itself.
A good game engine , owned by a company that is independent(not a cash grab of china's tencent) and currently leading the PC , and known for making good games such as half life.
but the game sucks, the competitive scene is dead, no new players coming in and all the changes are either confusing or pointless. To me, Dota died when capitalism kicked in.
"Not a cash grab" Yep, surely
yeah ikr the cash grabbed valve who allows refund system on steam and literally demolished their yearly money making machine named battlepass in dota 2 every year removed in 2023, thats crazy. Also the live steamchart stats player count that other games too shy too show, dota 2 is still stuck at 700K player count average for the past 10 years holy sht this game is dead compared to overwatch. smh, Valve already made billions no need to cater their game for new kids.
"Cash grab" drama aside, and we can talk about all the wrong things about Riot, but money grab? No way. They started the free to play trend in a world where 60€ games+DLC existed. And while we could argue on how many people would probably spend more than 60€ on League, people without resources had the chance to play the game for free.
thats because riot knew how powerful f2p is. I do agree that lol isn't a cash grab because riot kept investing in it. A cash grab would be like Overwatch 2, gets released, big hype, stops updating a year later@@CalaTec
I remember this back in the day. It was sizeable drama, which quickly fizzled out in the League community as its player base grew and people in League stopped caring about rivalries with other games. I remember Heroes of Newerth being considered the real "threat" to LoL in its initial stage. By the time Dota 2 came around, some people thought that players would jump ship for the more professionally made game, but that worry too faded quickly because League's playerbase was ballooning so quickly.
I was really surprised when I saw in some random comment section on youtube raving about the "Pendragon-incident" and how Riot tried to sabotage Dota. That person was genuinely upset about something that happened over a decade ago and in the grand scheme of things probably didn't impact much anyways. I seriously doubt there are many players really involved in the scene who 1) personally witnessed this and 2) are so immature that they still care about this. League didn't get popular because Pendragon took down a website. It became wildly popular and successful because it was one of the first games offering a f2p model that could run on a potato attached to a hamster wheel.
I was around in many different e-sports scenes and Dota players and Starcraft players for some reason were always really salty about League's success. Easy game this, Pendragon sabotage that... It feels like a collective inferiority complex by these communities. League players usually never deride other games and more often than not celebrate successes like the TI prize pools or e-sports legends from other games doing something noteworthy. It's ironic that the game known for its toxic community rarely shits on other games' communities.
Fun fact about Pendragon: Back when League of Legends had a forum, players could easily talk to Rioters who would engage directly with the still small community. Threads that would regularly pop up were players asking why they were being banned. Riot didn't really have a system in place to detect people breaking rules afaik, so likely it was a Rioter being in games of players and seeing others do banworthy stuff themselves and banning those accounts, or digruntled players making screenshots of incidents and sending it to Riot support. Anyways, Pendragon oftentimes replied to the threads where people asked why they are being banned, posted the chat logs that got people banned and lectured them on their bad behavior. For a while this became somewhat of a running gag, that Pendragon came to the forums to smite the evildoers.
Had fun reading that. Nice take.
heh, we dont flame other communities because we flame riot and eachtother :D
Cap
>League players usually never deride other games
Literally every time Grubby closes LoL and starts DotA. Very vocally, too. Also, I played a lot of League in a lot of regions, so pls bro. We both know it's a lie.
>for some reason were always really salty
>League didn't become popular because Pendragon took down a website
Yeah, sure, Pendragon taking down the site did a lot of harm to the then-nascent dota community though. And it was on purpose.
The video focuses on the "stolen hero concepts" a lot for some reason, but it wasn't the main beef back in the day. The problem was that this site THE place to go, the main community hub - you could say, the only one. A lot of people just lost contact with each other. A lot of good ideas were lost. The platform for the early competitive dota was also lost. There was no prior warning, nothing. And of course Pendragon was aware it would be like that, and he had a lot of time to notify people, but he instead went for a sneaky kill. It was obviously done in bad faith (him withholding the archive is yet another proof).
Overall, *it's not the part where he promoted his game directly that made people mad originally* (a lot of folks were actually curious about League at first) - it's the part where he decided to actively harm his old community, presumably to lure some people in. And if you still don't think it was the intention, think again - another fun fact that few people remember anymore is that soon afterwards he uploaded "10 reasons why LoL is better than the alternatives" to the Riot forums that effectively was portraying DotA specifically in a negative light. And the post was pinned on the main League site for the few first years.
I will concede, however, that nowadays most people in the DotA community just stupidly ape the hateful sentiments instinctively without really knowing any of that. But the thing is, this attitude didn't come out of nowhere. Pendragon DID try to harm and fracture the community, and it was for the sake of his new project, hence the hate for that project.
@@AthenaTennosN
>Literally every time Grubby closes LoL and starts DotA. Very vocally, too. Also, I played a lot of League in a lot of regions, so pls bro. We both know it's a lie.
I can only speak for NA/EU, since I've been around those communities. Maybe the tribalism is more pronounced in places like Eastern Europe, where Dota is more comparable in popularity to LoL, I don't know. I also can't speak for thousands and thousands of anonymous viewers on Grubby's stream. I haven't been on Twitch for a while but I usually perceived those simple tribalistic jabs on that website as jokes and stoking the fire for entertainment. Stuff like NAYeah, sure, Pendragon taking down the site did a lot of harm to the then-nascent dota community though. And it was on purpose.
Sure it was on purpose, but it was also his website. It sucks that the Dota community took a hit, but realistically an alternative could and probably was created shortly after. You can't both claim that Dota was a nascent community which suffered greatly from this, but also that it impacted a massive amount of people. I am not saying this wasn't a dick move by Pendragon, it sure was. But in the grand scheme of things this was merely a small setback and hopefully learning-experience about community-resilience and decentralization. No one really was harmed by this, but the way people talk about this is blown way out of proportion, especially going after Pendragon as a person so viciously for such a long time. And the people who claim to have made champion designs ripped of by Riot shouldn't have posted their ideas online on a forum owned by someone else. That's all I'll say about that topic.
> he uploaded "10 reasons why LoL is better than the alternatives" to the Riot forums that effectively was portraying DotA specifically in a negative light. And the post was pinned on the main League site for the few first years.
I believe I found what you are referencing. You can look it up on the wayback-machine on July 2010 if you look up the league of legends website and click the button "LoL and Dota". Please check out for yourself if this is really as "bad" as you remember. To me it really looks like a completely new game trying to explain what it is and differentiate itself from its competitor. It's also impossible to say who created that post. If you meant something else, maybe you can find it. I don't remember such a post being pinned on the forums though, let alone for multiple years. And I have used the forums since late 2009. But it was so long ago, I might be mistaked, I admit that.
>But the thing is, this attitude didn't come out of nowhere. Pendragon DID try to harm and fracture the community, and it was for the sake of his new project, hence the hate for that project.
But again, how many people from back then who actually were impacted by this are still around in the Dota community? And of those people, do they really still hold such a large grudge for over a decade? Seems very childish to me. Those who really were impacted and maybe in the short-term lost accces to their favorite pastime/hobby or even online-friends due to Pendragons stunt, had a right to be angry back then. But in my opinion this doesn't warrant the level of vitriol and for this grudge to be held for so long.
Most players still hung up on this joined the game long after this happened. But hating Pendragon and telling of his betrayal of the Dota community to push for the evil and behated competitor game has become community canon for Dota players. To many its seared into their identity as Dota players, that they have to reject everything League of Legends, in large parts because of this minor online-drama that happened when most people bothered by it were still in preschool. That is the point I am trying to make. I am not defending the actions of Pendragon per se, but I am calling out the reaction which has been going on for far too long.
iirc, if you read the full TOS for LoL, there should be a very long section where it talks about how they are allowed to steal ideas and not be faulted for it. Kind of like facebook, but rather, anything you post about LoL, any suggestions, ideas, etc. can, and will be taken, without any mention of the original inspiration. And if you have a problem with specific content they have stolen, you'll have to go through a long process where they have to find a mediator, and probably can take years. Riot is seriously scummy. I have no problem with the game. It's just Riot that sucks.
Just read the ToS. Nobody reads the ToS.
Stay mad you're being fed with shit by Valve lmaoo
Riot Games (League of Legends): Riot allows fans to create art using their intellectual property, primarily for non-commercial use. They grant a limited license for fans to use, display, and create derivative works based on their IP. In exchange, Riot can use these fan creations freely, without crediting or compensating the creators. This open policy promotes fan engagement but doesn't offer a direct path for monetary gain.
Valve (Dota 2): Valve also supports fan-created content but operates differently. They use the Steam Workshop, a platform where creators can submit content for Dota 2. If Valve incorporates this content into the game, the creators receive monetary compensation through a revenue-sharing model. This approach provides a more structured and potentially rewarding avenue for creators.
The key difference is that Riot's policy is more about freely sharing and using fan creations, while Valve's approach is more commercial, offering a financial incentive through the Steam Workshop. As for the creation tools, Dota 2's Steam Workshop integration provides a direct platform for content submission and potential monetization, which is not present in League of Legends. This reflects the differing philosophies of the two companies in engaging with and rewarding their fan base.
Literally every company does this though. Anything posted on Reddit, Facebook, UA-cam, etc is their property.
Yeah just call out and hate Riot. Not like every single company in existence does this including Valve.
@HPblu3 I thought the same but found that valve has tools to lets u make things and thus u and them can benefit from it. Actually riot is far more better than any other company valve at top for sure since they have the tool to make money for u and them. But riot even without tools they allow you to use their ip as a fan only and in exchange they use your fan arts which is ok tbh. U know that the upcoming season changes made by a previously league fan artist he started doing fan arts then riot liked his work and invited him to work with them many rioters started like that and I respect riot for this.
What is legally punishable is one thing. Exploiting community creations for Individual profit is another ... and that people dislike this behavior a lot is absolutely understandable.
i fell asleep last night to this playlist and my last dream had bits of this video peaking through lol
Man, the chat during the section about copyright was so off, I feel like most people don't know anything about copyright, if you write on a forum post about character named X that does Z,W,Y that is instantly yours without any need to register, although registering it makes contensting it's your much easier, if anyone ever does a character X that does Z,W,Y and you can prove you created it before them you can sue, this hoewever does not stop anyone from creating a similar character that does things that closely ressemble the original creation as long as it's not an exact copy.
That goes for like any other type of work that can have a copyright, it's also how when you commission an art piece the copyright is entirely of the artist unless the rights are waived, granted or licensed to the commissioner, it doesn't need to be registered and it's automatically granted a copyright.
Kind of, your thinking of copyright correctly and that would apply to a book or script etc... but a game and it's programmed characters falls under patent. I can't come up with the idea to virtual reality and post about it, then do no work on creating it and sue/blame etc... the person who does invents it. Coding for a long time was a gray area between the two but even in 2010 it had firmly fallen on the side of patent.
The only claim to copyright would be if the lore or imagery was stolen from them
Nope. Game mechanics fall under patent, not copyright. And patent law requires that the invention be novel, so posting it in a public forum is basically throwing away any rights you have to the idea.
The real enemy is mobile legends bang bang
As ML player, if LoL and DotA didn't mess up with both their bad gameplay design and bad roster balance designed to make at least one bad teammate ruin both team and their fun in the first place, then the popularity of ML shouldn't that high based on their monopoly that capitalizes Riot and Blizzard's messes
But that's just me connecting between ther dirty history and the result of ML's success. Correct me if I'm wrong
ml is for poor asians that can't afford pc lmao
Grubby talks is good channel
Why is grubby apologising Pendragon wtf
Good read on the drama video, Grubby :)
Please more "lol vs dota vs dota2 vs hon vs blizzard" content :D
One wanted to earn money and one wanted to make his game. They're both in the right to follow their own ambitions IMO.
i'm sure if Icefrog just wanted the game, he would have stayed at S2 or being independent... so don't bullshit, he wanted the money as well.
Lol, no matter what you want, everyone wants money. Making a game out of your resources (both time and money) is very consuming. The problem is not money in itself, the problem is when you need to make money centered decisions on the game you wanted to make out of love.
@@iHaveGrudgeAgainstUT you cant compete with a whole company independently while they keep trying to screw you over multiple times
@@iHaveGrudgeAgainstUT he didnt have full control over development of the game as he did in WC3 dota. This was common knowledge back in the HON days
At Razer I was like omg its a dodgy guy... lol
This video doesn't actually give the full context of what Guinsoo/Pendragon did. DotA back then, was as close to an open source game as you could get. Anyone could start developing their own version (and there were hundreds), if your version was more fun, it became the one people played over time. By creating the website with a community forum that people could gather in , they (I believe accidentally) became the defacto developers for this style of wc3 mod, because the forums offered a form of community and advertising that was not typically seen back then for many custom games.
However, Guinsoo's version of the game was awful. It was quite literally nothing like what DotA later became, and he would eventually stop developing it and left it with IceFrog to ultimately die. IceFrog in tandem with the dedicated dota allstars community MADE DotA into the budding competitive genre that it eventually became over many years of development. I can't reiterate enough. The version of the game IceFrog inhereted IS NOT DOTA as you now know it.
So when Guinsoo and Pendragon come back to the community that was ultimately flourishing without them, take all of their ideas and effort, sell it to a company, and then take active measures to destroy said community that they STOLE FROM, and hide all evidence. I think it then becomes understandable why there is so much distaste for those of us who remember those times.
The reason IceFrog working with S2 and then Valve is different, is because IceFrog was an actual member of the community that made the game what it was. So him working with a company to make the game better was welcomed by the community, because the community understood that it would be better for them as well. They already had a working relationship with IceFrog and IceFrog had a long history of positive community interaction. (He was much more active in communication back then)
To say that this was simple bickering over the rights to a budding genre is nonsense, because neither Guinsoo nor Pendragon had any influence on the actual game or genre. Guinsoo made one of many Aeons of Strife style mods and then stopped working on it almost immediately. Pendragon made a good forum. That is all.
29:00 The real play is having a dev account that other players can look up, and also a secret main account with moderator permissions. The hard part is avoiding power tripping in in-game chat and drawing attention to yourself, so it'd be for the best to say nothing and just ban people you found distasteful; gaining satisfaction from them never knowing that it was you who got them. Extra precautions should be made to never post anywhere with the same username as the main account, and, especially, don't allow the account to contain any identifiers that could link back you.
Pendragon and guinsoo went to riot sold DotA allstars and used the website as one big ad campaign
Later they trademarked DotA allstars and sold it to Blizzard so they can cuck Valve out of making DOTA 2 (valve was forced to call it simply DOTA and not defence of the ancients)
Keep in mind nobody had any moral right to take and sell DotA without the consent of all the creators , they did anyway ..
I'm 17 minutes in and the idea that this is an intentional ploy to destroy Dota by 1 guy seems frankly absurd. He's 18 years old. He owns the site. He just got hired by a small indie company that he believes in. In what world would he NOT promote his new project on his site? The video treats this guy like he's a 40-year-old businessman who should know better. This is the early 2010s. Back then everyone treated their personal sites like a blog.
it was private forums, not everyone could join the beta tester / dev forum section where those were exchanged since not everyone used iRC back then or other chats
Very nostalic, i was there when the site went down. I dislike this man til this day xD with a passion.
Pendragon scammed the the community thats all, he was a dick about it, taking down the site which was very important to the community its not about legal concerns
the guy on the video is so biased that makes the video look like just drama, drama for no reason
it doenst feel informative, because is like we are only hearing one part of the storie.
@@OsnofAhcor every pendragon post on reddit is minus a million karma. icefrog is a beloved icon. you can imagine conspiracies here, it is what it is though. sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
well done Grubby for kick-up a shitstorm that have died a decade ago lol, better bring HoN and Blizzard into this too. I knew because I use to spend my entire weekend arguing people online! And seeing people still hold false belief on these games till this day is saddening.
e.g. dota is harder, but in truth, pvp games have no "easy-hard", because the difficulty setting is entirely dependent on your opponents, you can always outplay someone by getting better at something. I would argue at the time dota is harder because players are more experience and the game has a lot less new players, thus the expectation of "basics" would be higher than league. But this is also why lol is kicking dota's ass, because newer players kept the game alive for longer.
@@iHaveGrudgeAgainstUT I hate when people say Dota2 has better ESports and higher prize pools when the community is literally the one funding and raising the prize pools for Dota2.
@@joevaldez4889 and what's the issue with that, from the beginning the community that was made, also thrived and supported the game to get it to that level. Shouldn't it be the same with league then if that's the case? if not, then what's the issue?
@@joevaldez4889 and dota2 pools all the prize into 1 tournament, where LoL has on-going seasonal tournament all year round with 4 different major leagues (lcs, lck)
Yep, the whole "Dota-allstars LLC" deal was essentially a bunch of nonsense to get it on the books that DOTA-Allstars was owned by Riot Games so that if Icefrog or Blizzard tried to make their own DOTA then Riot could sue and destroy any competition.
as someone who frequented DA, it was a huge deal to us. Pendragon will forever be remembered as the traitor and backstabber. Also for context, Icefrog used to credit changes and hero's to the ones who suggested them back in the day
People calling it drama until it happen to them. You dont know how much love and experiences theyve shared and suddenly one situation goes down south and the game that theyve loved and played, work on years of passion has being degrading and desecrating to every inch just to make it sink. Just imagine youre in their shoes and your yt channel got demonetize and all comment section got you dissed. How would you feel? Maybe the community back then felt that way. DRAMA he says LoL.
Its pretty obvious that the people going to riot didnt "make mistakes", the deliberately tried to hurt dota any way they could when they couldve just moved on
Im a league player and its pretty obvious they did that and they won so noone cares lol league will always be bigger than dota and riot will keep getting bigger and bigger.
I wouldn't say "they won" because Icefrog did very well for himself, they won the lawsuit that is shown in the video and he got to build the game he wanted without having to resort to any of those practices, inadvertently or not. Just because Riot made a more commercial game that has more players, don't mean "they won", they tried to ruin Dota and they failed at that, so in that way, they lost.
@@xazarl3381 least morally deranged league player
@@j0nasbsIt really depends on what they're goals are I mean League in terms of it's popularity and effect on the gaming culture has surpassed dota. Even grubby said that he was being influenced by league without even playing it.
@@maxxrr7389 lol. dota is a milestone, a revolution, will always will be. which game has more players currently doesn't mean a single thing. League is a casual 20 minutes experience of diluted moba for young adhd generation. some other game will surpass it someday. DOTA will always be DOTA. If you're talking about Grubby you can also mention that he likes League much less than DOTA that's why he plays it so rarely while he plays DOTA almost every day.
Dota 2 Players malding that Grubby isn't joining in with the Pendragon drama😅
w3 pro dont even give a shit about dota, back in the days, dota is a game for people who cant micro in w3
why are you so mad in every comment lol @@iHaveGrudgeAgainstUT
I don't know much about this drama or whatever it's supposed to be, but the person who made the video seemed quite biased. Most likely because they themselves are a dota 2 player. Also, from what I've seen, It's mostly the dota community bringing this stuff up.
0 things he said are false...how do you deal with that? Anyone with a soul would be biased here.
@@KolyaUrtz If you re-read my comment, you can see that I didn't say anything about anything being false in that video
@@lewdex then what's the point of ur comment?
@@KolyaUrtz What's the point of your comment?
Of course, the Dota community is going to keep mentioning this. They are the ones who got fucked over, not the league community whose best interest is to sweep it under a rug
terrible video lmao but good reaction. pretty boring drama. icefrog knows PR better and stays silent. in the end created great games -- Blizzard is the real moba loser here
I think the worse thing pendragon did was the destruction of the website which per his own admission was a community project. The real problem to me is not legal but a beyrayal of trust. If u want to know the history of Dota here u can go and find another by this guy. Icefrog isn't exactly a hero cause he sold out too to Valve. At the end both companies have made profits on both sides and something that was community owners was turned into a sell out. They hate PF particularly cause he was the first to do it, the most extreme to do it and they're ok with ice frog cause he tried to create a community.
This Is very interesting. When I look at the patent pending the blizzard bought it like. I remember long time ago Blizzard lost all the rights. And that's why you see that map better to change for a Warcraft reforge because they don't want to have the same situation where another game is born in their Warcraft editor lol. To me, that makes sense that they lost it this time around. So the next time around anybody creates a up brand new game idea they can automatically take it. So to me those are lost the first time around and may have found a way to get it back but that's not the way I remember it
That was nice and entertaining video and guy was definatley not biased!(just like me lmao.) Now for the longest comment (spoilers it will be some league bashings,lol.) i've ever posted online. Having played both games before i wanted throw my take on the internet so here, im not active player in either of them anymore except some arams time to time with firends and watching tis, both games work for what they try to achieve and great games for their own community and in their own niches of course league is more popular and successful one having many reasons for that mainly riot knowing what pr is and more importantley having motivation for it, game itself being more accesible and easy to get into especially now after a decade where it has established pop culture place for itself with arcane and other stuffs and they doing it again with valorant on the other hand i think what valve done with dota 2 is amazing in its own right with ti's, true sights, and majorly game itself over the time. imo what kept this game back from more commercial success is the lack of motivation and intend on valves part as they really do not need it to be successful beyond minimal requerments, yes they tried at first for exapmle with ti but after reaching some point they were satisfied with it. i mean those guys just stopped devoloping their own games because of steam solo carrying them, so i think they really do not give a fuck about lol having more player than their own games or any other stuff and still dota 2 is always at top by steam playercount and that says something so yeah they are very diffirent and simillar games at the same time but what i want to say lastly to those who did not try, know or really dont having a taste for dota is that from just pure game quality perspective lol really have nothing over dota 2 im sorry if this triggers you or something but thats the truth. Its just the better one, from ui to sound to graphics to animations to gameplay itself. I mean as i said i play arams time to time so i have recent experience with lol too, every time i open that launcher damn its really sucks (it'll gonna get little petty here) i mean other day i tried to lower the menu music level so i did that from settings but guess what it did not happened because for some reasons sound effects control the menu music not the music setting like wtf ? And how after a decade this client is still this bad in every aspect not the mention all the other quality of life features or the lack thereof anyway the summary: game shows its age and its not a wine im sorry. Rito upgrade your game pls❤
Seems childish honestly, if he made a website, and it was bought by a company. Company wanted to use the thing they bought. Doesn't sound any more scumbag to me. Sounds like normal business. Companies want to get value out of things they pay for. "shock!"
The "difficult to bring back online" thing for why people are crying about the 3 years instead of the week, is Riot might not have wanted the thing they bought to not be exclusive to them. Once they sold it to blizzard he put it back up that same week. So.... clearly riot wanted to use it.
...did you even watch the video???
@@KolyaUrtz Did you?
Look at how pendragon Looks Like, that tells you everything. Sellout over integrity. Thats why icefrog is still the goat
Random apology video jokes lmao
That's why dota player really hate LoL from the begining. Pendragon and guinsoo sold their soul to riot.
impartial Kappa
the chat is so unbearable tbh
Without even watching this I can tell you that Dota 2 players will bring this up in every conversation about League, meanwhile League players don't even know who Pendragon is, or Dota 2 for that matter.
That being said, Pendragon is still a total PoS for taking down the Dota forums and putting up a League add.
my experience is that league players go out of their way to let everyone know that they don't know what DOTA is. just like this example.
@@Taunt61Insecurity on both sides. One side is insecure because they aren't the popular, famous celebrity. Other side is insecure because they know their game is built by a bunch of frat boys.
Dude what you on about? No dota player ever cares about your kids low skill game, go back to play with your kindergarten's toys....
@@arthurchen6464 nah. dota players just don't like where the genre has gone. old school fallout players might hate fallout 4, fallout 76. that's not insecurity, that's simply having good taste. same with dota and league. league players get insecure when they hear about dota, because they feel they are playing the more simple, shallow game. hence all the allusions to dota being dated and shit. don't get me wrong, league is a good game. it's fun, played it a lot in the first seasons. but compared to dota, it's just like eating crackers vs a three course french dinner. that's just a fact.
Pendragon took this concept and turned it into a scam. Typical career move by a greedy person, but shows why big ideas need IP protection laws in place. (Protect the consumer).
The asking for donations a month before shutting the website down was such a scammy move by Pendragon.
omg king can you d more videos like this about dota vs league history / drama? i personally played dota for the first time a few months ago for a few weeks and had a lot of fun but league was the first game i ever played so idk but love you and your videos daddy xD can u play Yuumi support jk
My take on this as a person who played dota in 2005 to present... at the time when pendragon soft promoting league in 2007 or 2008, people were bored of the warcraft engine, and it was a big deal to have this moba played with its own engine, but dota players were not ready to accept a new game it must be dota... during this time blizzard also took to the court for the claim of DOTA game... and the dota players were lost. Pendragon made the best possible solution to introduce moba players to an alternative where dota will be shutdown by blizzard... and MOST OF US (friends) were happy that there is an alternative... there was no offense what Pendragon had done, it was important he introduced us to LOL moving forward... in the end they just wanted to cash in on the idea... nobody owns the idea at that point but everyone wants to buy it...
As someone who claims to have "played dota from 2005" you completely omit Heroes of Newerth" , which was the original successor to the map, and where most players moved to, prior to Dota 2...
@@Optii87 not in the place of which i come from... Dota 1 is/was the only game that let say has no substitute. When all these variants came, dota players knew it will take sometime to balance heroes and the games... so we did not moved to any game, we stick to dota1 until dota2 came... LOL came with a paid price tag, dota 1 and dota came with free to play. Learning new heroes and mechanics takes time and new earth did not become famous in the place where i live... so it is completely ommited on my account and recollection.
Grubby a rioter in bronze banned me for three days for picking toplane thresh
It was not meta at the time, and still is not meta now, but it is often times a successful pick.
Certain rioters are in the bad habit of doing this regularly.
That’s kinda wild
@@GrubbyTalks there are more videos explaining it if you look hard enough, if I find one I’ll come back and drop the link
@@GrubbyTalks both times happened on a Smurf account with summoner name like |I|I||I|I|I|I|I|I|I|I|I|
I am the barcode man
@@conanruisi You might have just been banned for smurfing lol.
@@AkshayPrasadrocks no the first time I was flamed in champ select, all game, and banned immediately during match results by bright moon
Phreak banned me after flaming me at 15:00-match results
Both times they explicitly said “we don’t care what you want to do we’re in control of the game” and banned me.
Yeah PD just ruined a childhoods of many people. They created community around game that grew so big it strated its own genre. And this guy out of nowhere just shut it down while posting mockery at that place of that game.
No biggie just a few million kids comunity center shut down and replaced with sign "you guys are dorks" for no real reason. But really no real legal problem happend.
(and yes these kids are now the adults that hate LoL as it was the game promoted on taht stupid sign)
I played WC 3 in early 2000', but I never played with mods or didnt engage with the "online community" because I couldnt speak english back then. I started playing LoL in 2011 because my friends invited me to play with them, only later I found out that there used to be a mod for WC 3 called "DotA" (I actually found out about it from the Basshunter song which is literally called Dota lmao) however even though I never played DotA, I still got to know about Pendragon from DotA (and Dota 2) fans who would get insanely upset whenever LoL would get mentioned or compared to DotA, in twitch chat, on reddit etc. Tbh because of that almost blind hostility and hatred I never tried Dota 2 because while LoL is known as a game with lot of in game toxicity, vast majority of the time it starts and ends in game, but the amount of negativity from Dota 2 fans online kinda pushed me away from even giving Dota 2 a try.
Another reason why the hatred from Dota 2 fans seems so pointless is that for us, as a customers/players, having more moba games as an option on market is only better -> it makes the games push each other to be better and better while if there was only one moba on the market, the game would quite likely get more stale with less updates and worse monetazitation (u can see this with some other games like Total War games series or Destiny 2, which have basically a monopol in their own niche/genre and I wish they had a competition so they would have to start trying again instead recycling old content and assets over and over.)
"Stale with less update " is literally the state of dota2 and most dota2 players like that stability in the game. As for monetization you can get the both the lowest and highest price because compared to leagues standardized price dota2 has a demand based pricing.
How can a low effort copy of another's work "push each other to be better". And Riot actively tried to kill Dota 2 in its early days, is that pushing to be better for you?
All the hatred for lol is justified. Customer needs healthy competition, and riot didn't offer. They didn't want to compete so they chose to take down the opponents instead, until they become so big that noone can survive in the market but themselves. In fact it would've been better if riot had never existed, there were so many games like Dota that had great potential, only to be overlooked because they are not lol.
I mean, Riot literally actively tried to KILL Dota! So there is a reason why so many people at the time were upset about it, they tried to kill their Game.
I know this comes from your perspective and ignorance on the subject, but once you know, both your points actually go against Riot. The reason LoL is popular is because they nailed all the right spots on marketing, but the game itself is so bad its just sad how influential it became.
@@KitsuneFaroe Feel free to post any proof of Riot trying to "kill" Dota because I have tried to find it and stuff like this is only mentioned by Dota players on steam forums. Also dont u think its dishonest to say that a game which is played around the world such as LoL has kept its popularity for +10 years just because of marketing? Now that is an ignorant thing to say
the amount of takes in the comments from league players who know fuck all baffle me since why speak up against the people who are pissed when you know fuck all about the incident?
heroes of neverth bruh
what ever the fuck is "benevolent entrepreneur"
Grubby it takes DoTa 4 to 6 Months to add 8 skins to the game this is whit out new spell animations whit out Skin specific voice lines
I used to work with Icefrog for some time back in 2009 and all I can say is that the people there were toxic, full of themselves and we had drama every week.
and i used to work with pendragon and guinsoo both were full of shit and drama feeling like they are god but in fact they were stealing community idea
@@Gdg195 what was your aka?
Source: I made it up
The people “there”? Where? The website?
@@GrubbyTalks we only had the forums and the beta forums on icefrog's website (playdota). Apart from that there was clan TDA on Us server which had the most tedious join process and toxic mods and admins.
seeing LC turn into a racist man again gave me nostalgia
Racist man riding a horse
Classic Guy that has No passion. Only does this for Money, pathetic guy. Just Like the company where he went
Omg, dota community so cringe 😂 do better 🗿 why even crying over someone success... Same idea won't even make it as the same result, LoL could run on potato pc and its free was the catch. Only NA, EU, basically westerner whose fumming about it 😂. The rest part of the world rejoice on new moba that runs free 🗿 i played LoL since S1 f2p until todays, and have 300+ skin on first account, 200+ on second account and 400+ on my main account right now 🗿 bunch of Tft stuff's too...
IMO most of the drama is based on people who can't accept we don't live out of good will, LoL became the game that DoTA was never going to be, but there's a lot of spiteful people who would never ever accept that DoTA as a mod was a deprecated idea that lasted too much.
Yep. If we give Pendragon the benefit of the doubt, it's not crazy to see how his idea of doing what's best for the Dota community is to turn it into a real game.
Of course he might still be a jerk with an ego, but honestly what do you expect from a volunteer mod of a gaming community?
The video was 7 years ago dota 2 players are hilarious we lol players are rent free in their heads you guys care more about lol than your game
I used to play sc1 and w3 back in the days and later on started with dota1... i remember when dota 2 came out but it was pay to play and league was free.. that was the ending of everything. if dota2 were free in the beggining league would have never be a thing
In its early access it was, but I remembered I got a beta key from my friend, and got a buncha beta keys myself. After it was released though, it is completely free
Ok but if this pendragon guy paid for the website, it's kinda his right to advertise whatever he wants no ? Kind of considerate of him to even discuss and ask if he can imo
it is entirely i nhis right. but conflict of interest is on everyone's mind once you do it
I'm not entirely sure how a lot of people seems to think thia fact makes someone completely screwing over an entire forum full of thousands of people without any prior notice whatsoever is okay. "Oh yeah he had the rights, I guess it's okay if this guy that claimed multiple times that he would use this site to further our community, blatantly screws us over now haha xd" Seems like a lack of understanding of how very basic human interactions work.
@hiphop4eva374 Well, because he didn't do anything nefarious, he didn't change it to a league website .
He just advertised a new project he was working for in the same space.
He furthered the community by paying for the website for ages without help, and when he could have made a little money, his friends told him no. Seems like a lack of understanding of how a basic business works.
Leaving the website operational was nothing but a kind gesture I sure wouldn't give.
@@saki1333 - He literally did change it into a league website while taking the original site down, it says so in the video.
If you're willing to put down a non-profit and community oriented site that was put up with the help of potentially hundreds of users just because your co-workers didn't approve of everything you were doing then you're as emotionally immature as that guy.
@@hiphop4eva374 he changed it after the argument and being slandered it's a bit different than changing it out of the blue.