Oral Microbiome Tests #10, 11, 12: Any Luck With Reducing Or Eliminating Serratia marcescens?
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- Опубліковано 27 лют 2024
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Papers referenced in the video:
Effects of temperature, pH and NaCl content on in vitro putrescine and cadaverine production through the growth of Serratia marcescens CCM 303
www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/...
Production of vanillic acid from vanillin by resting cells of Serratia marcescens
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2669632/ - Наука та технологія
Thank you. Wonderful research, much appreciated.
Thanks @martins_kreicis!
Great research again. Thx
very interesting content thanks
Have you tried: weeding out S. marcescens then following up with beneficial species (probiotics)? Like a garden, when weeding but not following up with mulch or other beneficial competing species, whatever undesirable species that survived would just recolonize.
My background is in physics so I'm saying more than I know. But saliva is basic which keeps a nice floral arrangement of NO producing bacteria...unless there's plenty of sugar handy that the bacteria can chew on and poop out. The calcium in saliva does a nice job at enamal repair, but it also likes to combine with crap on your teeth an make hard plaque. Rather than increase salt, perhaps more baking soda would have been better. I thinks vanillin also has an OH group so also might be basic. I suppose the ultimate question is "Does serratia prefer an acidic or basic environment?" Cheers and thanks from the Great White North for your entertaining posts.
Thanks @bhut1571. The diet should be nitrate (and NO) rich, as average daily beet intake prior to this test (and all 11 tests) was about 230g/d. I've even tried potassium nitrate in the homemade mouthwash for a couple of tests, which didn't make a consistent dent on Serratia.
I could increase sodium bicarbonate, which would raise the sodium concentration to 2% and fully alkalinize the mouth. Likely acidic, as a healthier oral microbiome should occurr at a relatively higher pH (< 5 increases caries risk).
Many mouthwashes such as listerine are acidic as well
Closys is a mouthwash that is not acidic
Really cool about the vanillin! Looking forward to it. I might have missed it if you said, but do you gargle your mouthwash? I found I was able to drastically reduce my tonsil stone issues by trying to make sure I gargled "into" my tonsils (hard to explain, very subjective) using a similar bicarb and peppermint mix, so I owe you for that one!
Thanks @OneDougUnderPar. Yep on the gargle. Unfortunately, my tonsils were removed as a toddler-I wonder if that has something do to with (probable) lifetime containment of Serratia in my mouth
I'm glad the mix worked for you!
You said previously that you store your mouthwash in room temperature, is it possible that the xylitol in the mouthwash gets fermented by bacteria in the bottle which causes the xylitol to disappear over a couple of days period. And this is causing these wildly different results in Serratia Marcenscens because you only get xylitol on your teeth in a short period after making a new batch of mouthwash?
look into Dr. Ellie Phillips. she says she's won contests among dentists of having the most diverse microbiome. she uses xylitol and 3 mouthwashes twice a day, flossing and tongue brushing being obsolete
Which has alcohol, hydroxi peroxide , flouride and bunch of other dies
Talk about wild fluctuations in your data here. I hope you are able to come up with a protocol and overcomes that bacterial overgrowth.
Thanks @adamd9418, I'm confident I can sort it out, it might take a lot of testing, though
Appreciate your dedication on this Mike. Are you going to remove Xylitol from your mouthwash?
Thanks @jamesgilmore8192. Nope, as there's published data that it can reduce Serratia-although the 5% xylitol formulation didn't work, I may try an intermediate dose in a future test.
Hi Michael, I appreciate sharing this and your struggle to eliminate Serratia, I also have a problem with this bacteria being present in my urine, have you checked any bacteria in your urine? I took Bactrim (combination of sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim) for 10 days but I did not work. Doctor suggested to take it longer, up to 30 days but I am not convinced that it will work. Any suggestion how to eliminate Serratia from urinary tract?
Hi @qdirac, I haven't, but when considering that vanillin may kill Serratia, adding whole vanilla beans to your diet may be one option. Whether it will work is another story that requires testing...
Very cool. On an unrelated note: Michael, do you use any hot or cold therapies on a regular basis?
Thanks @speedftw32. Not yet, but if was going to use something like that, it would be hyperbaric o2 therapy, which may be better
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 noted. Cheers !
i wonder if that bacterial strain is in any way fructose related, cuz in my personal experience, eating anything sweet tasting (except maybe for sugar alcohols) just totally messes with my gut and oral microbiome, and the effect is cumulative. if i eat swee things (yes even whole organic foods) the next morning ive this weird bitter taste on my tongue/back of my throat and my tongue gets covered all white and stuff 😔
but if i remember correctly ur data didnt show any correlations with fructose/sugars and that sarratia macescens thing (correct me if im wrong) 🤔 maybe u can double-check tho, im very confident it to be true in my personal experience 😁(😩)
Fructose wasn't significantly correlated with Serratia...but, it could be a sugar intake issue-although fructose intake is half of my highest intake since 2015, ~60g/d is still relatively high
What about the potassium nitrate portion
how are you adding the vanilla?
my understanding is that is the one flavor they put in imitation vanilla, so is it 1% that plus water?
Pure vanillin, mixed with water
do u use a waterpik? maybe u have some gum pocket contamination going on somewhere in the back between teeth and gums and not even know it, occasionally getting filled with gunk/and occasionally clearing up
maybe see if doing a professional cleaning at the dentist right before/the day u do the oral microbiome tests correlates with a better oral microbiome 🤔
Yes, please see the oral microbiome playlist, I tried that for a few tests. I floss every day nonetheless
this us super interesting nobody covers this stuff.... man the sodium sttuff makes no sense tho... hope u can figure that out... i love vanilla hope it does another benefit!
are you sure the bristle tests are accurate? have you tried taking 3 tests in the same day and taking note of test proximity to eating, drinking, brushing etc, and seeing how they differ?
im pretty sure your oral microbiome can change moment to moment quickly based on factors like that
1-3% of Bristle users have Serratia in their oral microbiome, whereas it's consistently high (85% or higher) for me over many tests, which argues against it being a test error
Each test is taken at the same time of day, under the same conditions (time since last meal, time since tooth brushing).
Did I miss something about the vanillin, how do you take it, in what form? Is vanilla different from vanillin? I know they are from same source, but googled vanillin and it keeps showing me vanilla.
ua-cam.com/video/lMKycj_cp4U/v-deo.html
What bacteria is preferred in the mouth? Lactobacteria? By eating yoghurt?
Nitrate-reducing bacteria is a good start: ua-cam.com/video/EnkJqACCEE4/v-deo.html
Vanillin and the polyphenols in peppermint oil don't seem to share any structural similarities as far as I can tell. And over on PubChem there aren't really any compounds with 3d similarity to vanillin that are readily accessible.
If you're suggesting the addition of vanillin to the mouthwash (with PPO), I may do that. I've also increased vanilla bean intake, which should increase systemic vanillin levels-I'd expect that to be secreted by the salivary glands into the mouth, which could help, too.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Having more vanilla beans sounds good to me if it works. What does the peppermint oil do again?
For treating Serratia marcescens (SM) infections, use these antibiotic combinations:
-Carbapenems or aminoglycosides with third or fourth-generation cephalosporin.
-An aminoglycoside (amikacin is effective against most strains) and an antipseudomonal beta-lactam to prevent resistance that can occur with just a beta-lactam.
Thanks for the info @flor.7797-I'm trying to stay away from antibiotics, as antibiotic-resistant Serratia is nasty
That Serratia is 0% in some of my tests suggests that I can eliminate it without antibiotics, it's just discovering the recipe to more consistently achieve that level
There may be a re- colonisation source, like a toothbrush.
@@robertvondarth1730 Same toothbrush for all tests (so far)...
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 I understand but if you had to choose between arthritis or not, antibiotics don’t sound too bad anymore
@@conqueragingordietrying1797
Perhaps sterilise the toothbrush before each use
Could it be the bicarbonate/ph or the peppermint oil what is helping?
Possibly yes, but in hot-off-the-presses data, 1% vanillin dissolved in water without bicarbonate or peppermint oil = 0% Serratia. I need to repeat the experiment, though, to see if it's a real effect...
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Lets see the results then. Maybe testing my oral microbiome is in my future too, I have seen what I believe to be Serratia growing in my sink every time I slack on cleaning so I wouldn't be surprised if it grows inside of me too.
Maybe you can find out which food or water source is introducing this particular bacteria. If it is a fairly common bacteria then does it even make sense to try and eliminate it? Perhaps strengthening the oral microbiome in other ways to be able to prevent it from becoming the dominant organism makes more sense.
Wouldn’t frequent mouth washing with anything that kills bacteria introduce the same problem that frequent antibiotic use has?
If it was the water, I'd expect Serratia to be there for every test. I looked at correlations for foods, with no luck-that video is in the Oral Microbiome Playlist
I've further increased beet intake (8.5 to 11 oz/d), which could help, as nitrate acts a prebiotic for the oral microbiome, which could crowd-out Serratia
For the tests where Serratia = 0%, I do have a somewhat normal microbiome, so the mouthwash isn't globally eliminating everything. But, I agree with the concept, less is more, i.e what dose of anything can eliminate Serratia without harming the rest of the oral microbes...
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Do you drink the beets in a smoothie or chew them? There is probably a difference as far as the oral microbiome is concerned.
@@jamesgilmore8192 Drink, but there should be a bolus nitrate surge in blood sometime after eating/drinking them, which is supposed to be good for the oral microbiome
I'd have to chew on beets all day, otherwise, which isn't feasible
I'm see gut health research that points to the need to reestablish other species.
Comparing Test 11 with the high NaCl conc to the others seems to indicate you are suppressing the good guys more than Serratia, meaning the community dynamics are quite sensitive. There will probably be more of these 0/~1 outcomes in future tests but don't get discouraged, any change from the "high" baseline will be useful information.
Definitely @jamesgilmore8192, no discouragement here, it's a part of the process!
I'm not sure that 97% is significantly different from 95%-to address the good guy suppression hypothesis, we'd need to take a look at the resulting microbiome on days without Serratia...
Looking at those test numbers, that except for one time are almost binary, I'd say the Occam's razor to your results lays in the lab testing it.
Maybe send the same test to different labs?
It's the same lab for all tests, and only 1-3% of their users have any Serratia. For me, it's been a somewhat more consistent finding, so contamination isn't likely.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Good luck in your battle 👍
How about a sampling issue. The idea being the bacteria isn’t evenly distributed so sometimes you get a pocket and sometimes not. In that case doing two tests at a time could help rule that out. Meaning two samples from different locations could yield different results.
@@RobC1999 I brush and floss 1hr before each test, so I'd expect a pocket of Serratia to be minimized. It's saliva, so it's tough to localize it to only 1 spot in the mouth
Have you considered a post mouthwash re- colonising of beneficial bacteria?
Perhaps sauerkraut juice or whatever?
I haven't-is there published evidence that sauerkraut juice is good for the oral microbiome?
Serratia has been 0% for about half of all tests, it's just a matter of identifying the causative factors
Then, the next step is optimizing the underlying microbiome, without Serratia
@@conqueragingordietrying1797
Our mouth is a delicate balance of good and bad bacteria
Friendly bacterial strains compete with bad
It could be that the substances that eliminate the bad have wide spectrum effects, suppressing good competitors as well.
We have reservoirs of bacteria in our gum crevasses, if we could tip the odds towards the good, perhaps the bad won’t keep repopulating from the reservoirs?
@@conqueragingordietrying1797
I haven’t done a deep dive into this, but Lactobacillus and Leuconostoc species are the primary bacteria in sauerkraut
(in the light of this video) maybe food for thought:
if ur data suggests that things such as cocoa and higher fat dairy products rnt so great according to ur numbers but a bit of coconut fat (in forme of coconut creme) appears to be beneficial in ur data it could possibly be that the lauric acid in coconut products somehow helps with warding of/killing unwanted bacteria which might be why despite saturated fat "usually" be considered shitty that that particular (antimicrobial) saturated acid could have a-net-more-positive effect 🤔lots of if and uncertainties, but in the light of ur messy oral microbiome it possibly doesnt seem tooooo far fetched 🤔
would be curious what would happen if u left out the lauric acid but kept satfat from plant based sources equal
Coconut butter is already in the daily approach, and I've increased over the past 2 weeks, as it's significantly correlated with higher LDL in my data (covered in the "is low LDL bad for epigenetic aging?" video)
An argument can be made that lauric (and myristic) FAs are good for reducing AD risk (there's probably a U-shaped curve, though)...
@@conqueragingordietrying1797the AD risk reduction may come thru them destroying bugs in one's mouth/gut that increase the chance for AD. both have antimicrobial properties (tho ive nothing to back that hypothesis up 😅)
Your Serratia m. population labs are almost binary. As you've tentatively ruled out lab error, that suggests that the Serratia count rapidly recovers after mouthwash use and dominates other flora. You might consider re-introducing a competitive flora to compete with Serratia such as rinsing with a fermented juice or food(s) shortly after mouthwash use.
In an earlier video, I tried to boost my own endogenous non-Serratia to potentially crowd out Serratia, but that didn't work
Some suggestions:
- swishing someone else's spit
- swishing dirt
If Serratia is also in sinal / nasal cavity and esophagus, consider a treatment which may be snorted and drunk, respectively.
Ah, a spit transplant could work, but for how long? I'd probably need to repeat it consistently
In contrast, Serratia has (fortunately) been 0% for about half the tests, so it's about discovering that recipe...
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 That's good! I was wondering if it might be super low levels and repopulating once growth conditions are favored. Not everyone has serratia problems, so maybe yours are supercharged.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Or maybe you have a gene allele product that is feeding Serratia more than for other people?
are you a mouth breather? have you tried coconut oil, oil pulling?becareful using mouth wash, take days for the biome to recover
I'm not a mouth breather, coconut butter is in the daily approach. There's no published evidence for coconut oil's fatty acids (C12, C10, C8) on Serratia
My bet is that something you are eating, breathing, or touching is the origin of that recurring Serratia. I don't know where Serratia can live.
Tracking it down would take a lot of time, but just cleaning everything, steaming food that you normally eat raw, and filtering the air is easy enough. Hats, glasses, phones, keys, belts, shoes, coats and wallets, are often ignored. It could also be on your skin, assuming it can live there. Mouse pads, mice, keyboards, buttons, switches, knobs. It probably can't stay alive very long outside a cozy mouth, so if there is something you are depositing it on and then reinfecting yourself with, it is likely something you touch nearly every day. The garbage disposal might be an exception. And a pet, family member or friend could harbor it.
If your car has an air filter, maybe that needs changed.
Cleaning the drains on showers, tubs, sinks and toilets makes sense.
I use rubbing alcohol in a sprayer, and microfiber towel to hit all my doorknobs and light switches, perhaps once a month. Every couple of months, I clean my steering wheel and a few other places in my car, usually when I am waiting for someone, just sitting in the parking lot. It is something constructive to do rather that wasting time playing games on the phone. Sterilizing is just a bonus, I mostly just like things to feel clean, and look clean. I am sure I get a lot of bacteria on me. I have 6 cats in the house, and 3 want picked up all the time, and I often get litter box dust on me from their feet.
That’s definitely possible, but the diet is mostly the same from test to test. If it was the food or water, I’d expect to see Serratia on all tests. I’m generally clean, including the kitchen, bathrooms, etc.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 The food could still be intermittently tainted. Strawberries are picked by hand, and you eat a lot of strawberries. Do you soak your strawberries in a vinegar solution for 5-10 minutes? Maybe if they are frozen, that does not work as well. I use Costco frozen strawberries (Kirkland). I used to use Sam's Club ones (Member Mark), but they always had a weird smell and I could taste it too. Did not say anything other than "strawberries" on the bag, but there must be something, or some weird genetic modification to make that smell. I was buying the Sam's strawberries because they were sliced, and I thought it would be easier on my blinder. But the whole ones from Costco work fine, I just let it sit for 2 minutes after adding the water (room temperature), and the blender blends just fine. No, I don't do the vinegar soak...they would be mush. I probably would if I tested and got that annoying result.
I have knocked blending as something that can make AGEs, but as long as all that is in the blender is carbohydrate, water and fiber, it should be fine. It is when people add things like flax seeds, or nuts or protein powders that you get AGE formation.
One could still have protein power in there safely by first blending the powder with enough water to mix, and then moving that to a glass. Then rinse the blender and make the carbohydrate part, then pour in the protein and just stir by hand.
The source is probably something pretty damp. Or it just is not the food.
Do you have a dog? Maybe test his/her saliva? Dog saliva is usually cleaner than human, but who knows?
Have you used a water pick? That could be a source or a cure, probably.
Or a combination. Someone is using your Waterpik on your dog after it eats tainted strawberries from the garbage disposal :)
Is the data itself not super suspect? That seems insane to me that it's either 0% or close to 100%. Intuitively, the changes you're making wouldn't seem to have such drastic and seemingly unpredictable results.
There’s definitely big variability in the data, but the presence of Serratia marcescens in Bristle’s users 1 to 3%. If it was a global contamination issue, that prevalence would be higher. Then, the trick is figuring out why there is so much variability in my own data.
Why dont you do gut-colon microbiome testing?
Hey @hisairness28, I've done it 3x (that info is in my book from 2016), but rather than identifying who's there or their functional potential (genetic and mRNA analyses, respectively), I place more value on what they're actually doing or did, which can be measured via plasma levels of gut bacteria-derived metabolites.
iollo's metabolomic kit has many of those, including TMAO, indoxyl and cresol sulfate, as a few examples