The Real Reason, What Makes Guitars Expensive?
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- Опубліковано 20 сер 2024
- #knowyourgear #KYGpodcast #knowyourgearpodcast # Guitarpodcast
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Dare I suggest that there are guitars coming out of far eastern factories right now that are the equal or better than many US built guitars of the 60' 70' and 80's despite the prices these guitars are fetching these days...
Till this day I still see that debate of full hand made instrument vs CNC machine produced instrument, about the second ones not having "soul" and people against the consistency of the instruments produced that way, and not having any flaws 'like the good old ones' that makes them special. Looks like people is more focused some time on how the instrument is built than actually play it and enjoy it.
Pure and simple cork-sniffing. Nobody pines for the days of hand-built automobiles or TV sets - because if that was still the way they were made, they would cost astronomical amounts of money. The reality is that a Fender guitar - regardless of where it was made - is about the same or CHEAPER today in adjusted value than they were in the 1950s and 60s. $250 in 1960 (roughly what a Strat made in Fullerton cost) would be almost $2600 today. You can get MIM Fender's for $900 today and the American made ones like the Performer series are $1300-$1400 and the Professionals are still well under $2000. You have to get into the Ultra Luxe line before you are the same equivalent price of a 1960 Fender.
Precision is better ALWAYS. If you think a flaw is "character" you're delusional.
Any guitar that sings and inspires to play is worth buying. I mostly own MIJ and MIA classic models but recently found a 2018 MIM JH strat that was on par or better than them. There are Stars and Dogs everywhere.
" _There are Stars and Dogs everywhere_ " Except vintage guitars which are all absolutely superb instruments of the highest order, just ask anyone who owns one ;)
Cymbals are a good example of this concept. They’re all pressed out of bronze and then hammered lathed and polished, but the more expensive ones have more and more of the process done by hand
The cheap ones are cut from sheet metal and run through automated systems, with very little hands on until the end.
The top end are hand made from beginning to end, with the exception being machines that are used, like a press, conveyer oven, lathe, buffing wheel, etc…
A sheet of metal can be $50 or $1500. Or a gong can be $20,000!
It's a combination of a combination of variables. Greed is among those variables
Certainly materials can contribute, but just like anything else, LABOR is the primary cost driver. This is true for almost anything that requires skilled labor - carpentry, metal work, etc. are skills that are expensive and time consuming to obtain and therefore are going to be expensive to use. Of course, the labor in the US is significantly more expensive than the labor in Indonesia or Mexico. If you want an iPhone that is made in the US, then they are going to be $2000 rather than $1300. I don't know if they are going to be better quality - just more expensive. As Phil noted, when you can automate some of this labor on a machine, you are going to drive your costs down exponentially. And I agree with him - the machine processes are most of the time more accurate and of higher quality than the hand work.
That video, of them running the guitars over, made me feel like the Chibson factory deserves my money instead of gibson.
The destruction of those guitars by bulldozers is offensive and shameful. I remember seeing the video when it first came out and didn’t buy Gibson’s rationale that destroying faulty or unwanted product is better for brand value. I know that premium Swiss watch makers will do the same but a watch is an accessory largely worn for aesthetic purposes nowadays. Those instruments were perfectly good and if nothing else should have been donated to the many underfunded music and arts departments from struggling school districts across the country. Certainly some children or aspiring musicians without the means could have benefited and Gibson would have gotten a tax write-off for the donation and benefited their brand through goodwill (not of the balance sheet variety). Instead, their sole focus at that time was maintaining exclusivity and resale value. If they were that interested in disposing of "inferior" product they should have destroyed all of production stock coming out of the factory during that last part of Henry J‘s tenure given the atrocious QC issues. This is not even taking account of the terrible optics from wasting all of that lumber at a time of ecological distress and dwindling resources and the accompanying CITES violations. So glad that regime is finished and new management is a better steward set on returning Gibson to its historic standing of greatness. I just hope they can keep product relatively affordable for the average Joe.
All manufacturers have to base their pricing on the time spent to make a product. I used to quote jobs based on estimated time x labor rate for the particular task.
Same goes with building bicycles, the more “hand-time” the more expensive the bicycle.
Most consumers have *no idea* how *industrialized* our world is and how *incredibly cheap* new things can be made. Buy a set of wireless earbuds and it’s shipped to your house for less than $100. Total. Think of all the natural resources that needed to be harvested, purified, and processed into materials for manufacture, then manufactured, packaged, put into shipping containers, shipped across the ocean, unloaded at port, placed on truck or train, shipped to distribution centers, sorted and picked and packed into bags and boxes, then mailed to your house. All by humans. How many thousands of humans worldwide had a tiny investment of their time and attention ensuring your earbuds got to you? For a Benjamin? Get out of here! For a worker to mess around with how to fix a botched body is already losing the company money, even if it can be made into a first rate instrument sold at full retail. That’s how efficient humans are at making new things and refining raw resources. It’s cheaper and more predictable to extract new resources from the earth to build a new smartphone than it is to recycle an old smartphone containing the same materials. And I try not to think about it when things are thrown away.
I saw a Huss and Dalton presentation. They said it takes about 40 hours to 60 hours to turn out an acoustic guitar . If you figure 40 at 100 bucks an hour ( salary, benefits, overhead, changing dull bits, etc. , etc) plus at least another $300 plus for wood , tuners etc. , it doesn't take long to add up to $5k or more. Then you have shipping and music store profit.
From my POV and also a beginner, I see prestige and bragging rights as the most influential factors that determines a guitars price.
It took two years for Jackson custom shop to make 14 ke2 usa Kelley’s. I got one and it is the best guitar I have ever played and worth every penny. Cnc machines are actually better for consistency but they still put hands on the guitars
Thanks for making us relive the trauma, Phil 😂
Poor crushed guitars! All the trees that gave up their lives as homes for birds and squirrels, just be crushed later. Mahogany Matters! A good Dump Truck driver could've brought you a ton of parts, and maybe coffee too. Thanks Phil. \m/
Fully agree with the machine and hand time. You nailed it dude!
with me I want cmc machine produced instrument because it going higher quality.
Why not hand make MIM or Indonesian guitars where the labor is so much cheaper than?
Isn't it crazy, the changing of C.E.O.'s for Gibson(which happened in 2018 and again in 2023) has not really changed the perception of the company. Not for me at least. And it's pretty negative.
Thank you, I always wondered how the price was factored - one less mystery in my life.... ;^)
I think what was so outrageous about Gibson crushing those guitars is that they put on a production and filmed it. A lot less outrage if they would have just quietly cut the bodies in half with a bandsaw and threw them in a dumpster.
Send me the discarded guitars please! I would love to work on them for practice. But thanks fender and gibson for dumping, and crushing my dreams.. literally 😂
Retailers are paying roughly 50% of the MSRP to buy the guitars....then they sell them for about a 40% profit. This info came from a GC employee ....your mileage may vary.
7:20 I work in RMA at a huge company, dude, you must destroy flaws and prototypes that would be detrimental to fix and would even be detrimentally bad in the hands of new young players as a gift.
People say you can get good cheap guitars but in my experience this is not true. I'm not saying yoh need to spend house money but something nice for life does cost a bit and you need to usually try dozens before you find one you like.
Or you could buy an Eastman.
@Moosey Still expensive and made in China, main problem with that is it will not hold its value, I'd lose money if I sold it. Whereas my 2000 American Tele I brought for £500 only appreciates in value (and its better than any Eastman I've tried, not that they are bad, just saying).
Dig this clip, thanks @Phil
I love how you overlaid the audio of the crunching sound made by the guitars as they were being destroyed during your discussion of it. Yeah, that's not a good sound to come from a guitar.
That was a Hydraulic Excavator not a bulldozer.
My guess is they have insurance and it's better to claim it as a business loss than sell or give away a substandard product to the the public, which can tarnish their name brand.
Wait, why did they run them over ?
I could talk about this till the cows come home.... It's a very "moo ving" subject! 8) --gary
So where does “B stock” come from?
Often dinged in shipping, or in the retail store.
From the B stock factory in China using child labor, the best kind of labor.
Everyone is cnc . For a couple thousand dollars you are getting just a little more love . Handmade is definitely the way to go if you have at least 5k to put into a Jem ! I however do not have that kind of cash flow. I’ve also seen guitars in the trash and if you dumpster dive you will be fired !!! Ridiculous.
They can’t do that because look at BC Rich and Ed Romans. He put them out of business because he was putting out more guitars than the company
How can an Alembic be 50 grand?
Crunch 😢
The robots will make all the guitars to spec.
Atari trashed thousands ET game cartridges.
Apple trashed thousands of Lisa computers.
Fender trashes thousand of flawed guitar bodies.
It’s not personal, it’s business. 😂
Cut the bull. Answer: greed.
Not really
Gibson could have donated the Firebird X's to African children to realize the dream of Wakanda.
W the actual F?. They just destroy guitars that are better than many have and some don't have at all? That's just not logical and it shows a lack of connection to musicians and music. OMFG's Make a ghost label and sell them cheap or something FFS. Sorry this truly P--sed me off. Company's blow their horns about how they love the consumer and want to bring them the best. Well sometimes the best you can bring in some cases is not that which is perfect!. Sorry for the rant LOL.
Greed
They could have taken the hardware off the guitars at least, before they smashed them... What a waste.