To INFINITY...and Beyond! (Surging Idle, No Comm)
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- Опубліковано 16 жов 2020
- This 2007 Infinity G35x is having a surging high idle problem after a recent timing chain job.
But for some reason, it is unable to complete the "Idle Relearn" procedure.
When the engine is running, communication is lost with the Engine computer!!
Are we on Staten Island?
LAUNCH X431PRO:
www.amazon.com/dp/B07FCDWZKW/...
LAUNCH DIAGUN:
www.amazon.com/dp/B072FHLYRY/...
NEW LEVEL AUTO (Keith DeFazio):
/ newlevelauto
Automotive Test Solutions (Bernie Thompson):
/ atstube8
Enjoy!
Ivan - Авто та транспорт
I caught you chuckle when the scanner showed " POS " I AGREE, LMAO.
I laughed to
I knew EXACTLY what he meant too 🤣👍🏼
That’s funny stuff
now now, that means "Point Of Sale" :))))))))))))))))))))))))))
It really is great when people reach out and help.
Unfortunately i know people that would not give you the time of day.
Excellent video.
Refreshing your honesty on the hours spent to get to the bottom of the issue Ivan
Thank you Ivan. Good job. Have a blessed and safe week to you and your family.
Cool video Ivan , even cooler that you and Keith still collaborate on hard cases , I think Keith has seen just about every problem related to automotive computers
I'm working on fixing my car. I got it from some kid and it has lots of issues. Fortunately not this one. For now, I have to fix overheating and I have a few leads I'll try. Like he said, sharing knowledge is key. I love mechanics who aren't scared of sharing information with you when you have questions
Good one Ivan. I just finished a Bernie class on in cylinder wave forms. Excellent class, also signed up to his repair video channel. I also took Brandon Stecklers in cylinder wave form analysis class, they are both terrific guys and instructors. Learned a lot from both classes. This must of been a tough one to bill. Hope you and wife are doing well. Just a tip stay out of NY it sucks. 😊😊😊
Great video Ivan, either way I learned more about CAN networks and how they are interrelated, keep up the great work !!
Oo .. that was a nice diagnosis Ivan ... +1 to the *guru* of diagnosis Keith New Level Auto !! Thank you for sharing
Keith DeFazio has to be one of the most intelligent people in the car industry (OEM engineers would be wise to ask for his input on car electronics design). Offering his time to help you shows what a great person he is.
The thing that bothers me is that when the engine is not running, CAN communication with the TCM is fine. That indicates to me that the TCM CAN interface works. With engine running, whole CAN bus is trashed, but unplugging power to the TCM restores communication. I still think it's a ground problem somewhere. During crank, ground level rose a lot. If it idled okay before timing chain, then it stands to reason that something done while replacing the chain caused the issue. I'm guessing unplugging tcm stopped it from forcing a lower ground potential during comms, because that's how CAN low works, it pulls the bus wire to its local idea of ground, which probably doesn't match the engines idea of ground, since so much current is flowing forcing a voltage rise on its ground. I think you could see on the scope that when one module talked, bus voltages were different than when another would talk. The engine doesn't have a good ground to the battery anymore. Ground potential matches the TCM ground potential when low current is flowing through the engine electronics, especially coils and injectors, then at startup, engine ground rises. I'd like to have seen a voltage drop test between engine block and battery ground, not running, then running. I bet there is a full volt of difference.
The water intrusion he mentioned makes me wonder about the plug at the TCM. Maybe the crusties have caused a grounding issue.
Edit: I just read more comments and found Ivan's explanation. We're apparently both dumb :)
In the first part of the video I noticed that the back glass looked like it had condensation on the inside, but I have to agree with the ground issue and possibly water intrusion in the tcm. Who knows : /
I also think it might be an engine ground issue. It would have been easy to test it with a multimeter or even some boost cable: one on the motor, one on the battery negative. If it do nothing then the ground is fine. If something change then the ground is faulty.
Also, it crank weirdly imo.
Did anyone notice the crappy crank speed? We assume a weak battery but....??
there could be a wire chaffed through inside the trans and grounding with vibration or lack of ground and it's trying to control the solenoids when running floating the ground high and taking the bus down. I's go poking there first, not running then running
Bernie would be proud knowing that you always use battery ground. Nice one Ivan. Thanks!
Wish so much, you were closer... Would love to tag along for a few repairs. Your service calls are a lot more interesting than the "stuff" I've been doing lately...
I miss Keith's videos, also miss your Staten Island case studies! Great video who knew that when the car was running the tcm would cause a no comm.
You know it's a rust belt car when the "SNOW" button shows wear!
Interesting case scenario! Thanks Ivan!!
ha, the Keith DeFazio Jedi Master helps again
Bernie's a BIG scope advocate with the ATS tool. But it gets the job done. Having his knowledge is a big help also.
Well Ivan, you win some, you lose a couple.
Wish Ivan would give us a video about his evolution in regards to his early to current choices of diag equipment. What he thinks of all he's tried. Has he been working full time..all this time...outside the automotive field? While giving us all these awesome case studies? Working out of his garage. And putting himself thru the Staten Island chapters? Hmmm.
I still would consider the case of a bad engine ground, since the tcm ground reference may be the transmission case while the pcm reference is the body ground. If the engine block were badly grounded the transmission would be too.
Definitely my first suspicion, after having sorted the charge voltage. Voltage drop with engine running can sink any network.
Agreed
its also verry common on nissans of this year range to have the radiator fail, and leak coolant into the transmission, on this car the TCM is actually part of the valve body inside the transmission. When the coolant gets it there it likes to short the can lines. Most of the ones ive seen have been xterras and frontiers. But its super common, It would have been cool to see if the ground was missing for the transmission also. just thought id add in that for a possibility
Great presentation.
Haha, wow. Thats why its infinity or beyond!!! That was strange thing. Ita so nice of Keith to pass along the info on to you to fix the bia voltage and etc. That car needs to go crusher. Lol
Thanks for sharing... Cheers.
Ivan, I have seen a similar issue on the 2006-2010 Ford Explorer V8's with the 6R automatic. You'd normally get a funky shift, or a wrench light, and U101 and a U1900 DTC. Turns out, Ford ran the CANBUS lines right across the coils on bank 1, and when you get a coil that breaks down, it introduces interference into the CANBUS, and since you have CAN, throttle control, and transmission control all in this same loom, it causes pretty crazy problems on these.
When you were getting crazy CAN voltage spikes during crank and run, it sure made me recall the Ford Explorer problems, because they were ultimately caused by bad ignition coils.
Amazing and yet crazy case study for sure. Thank God for Keith. 😃👍
Thanks for sharing this one Ivan. Oh yes...I caught that POS n laugh you did. 🤣
Ivan, Idle hunting up and down is ALWAYS an air leak. In this case it is leaking right past the throttle plate. Let me explain, the computer adjusted to it's max high Idle to compensate for dirty throttle plates or valve timing issues. Now that those issues don't exist, the relearn must be preformed first. My point is that, If after the successful completion of the relearn, you still have idle hunt, there is an air leak present. Often times it will be hidden in the pcv system, brake booster, or evap. After 35 years and I have never been able to prove the "air leak theory" on Idle hunt wrong. Idle hunt is ALWAYS caused by air leaks. Thanks for reading. I hope this helps someone.
That was my original thought as well, Michael. I assumed that the shop checked for leaks with starter fluid/water/propane before reaching out to Ivan. Especially with the work they just performed to the car.
However, I would think that canbus issue when running would still be present.
@@djosbun Absolutely, The canbus issue is a problem, one of the things not allowing the relearn. I just wanted to point out the basis of why the engine was misbehaving. I have repaired many cars that would not communicate for some obscure reason, but still ran fine. Don't get me wrong, correcting the trans computer issue is one of the next moves. I just wouldn't be surprised if it still won't relearn once the computer is replaced. Some of these Nissans, I have had to disconnect injectors to get the idle down far enough for the computer to allow relearn. It quickly taught me to never clean a throttle plate on a nissan unless Im there to correct a concern. Good talking to ya.
Hi, I have seen a nissan altima 2005 having this problem after mechanic cleaning the maf & throttle body, it was hunting no vaccum leak, did an idle relearn with the accelerator pedal voodoo I found on UA-cam, didn't work, did it with a scan tool & all was fine. POS data PID surely describes nissan
@@paymanghafoori The thing is that, the air leak was the throttle plate being too far open, the computer had adjusted for the carbon build up. So the air leak was the air bypassing the throttle blade. That is why the relearn fixes it.
@@michaelwitmer7536 OK, now I understand
On the 05 G35 the Idle relearn can be done doing the "Foot Dance " procedure on turning the accessory on/ off and pressing the pedal to the floor IAW the procedure. I have done it and it works. If you mess with the throttle body on the G35, you most likely will have to perform the entire procedure...I learned that the hard way.
Your the man great job like always,,,
The only thing I could think of as a professional "arm chair technician on UA-cam" would be to make a solid ground connection between the battery and the Transmission and see if that makes any difference. Shops doing work on cars are notorious for creating bad grounds.
what grounds? oh you mean those corroded off wires, rusty bolts and chalky corroded aluminum the stuff bolts onto ;))))
@@throttlebottle5906 Sounds familiar to anyone who has looked under a hood in the last 25 years.
That is exactly what nissan wants you to do to correct communication problems on early 2000 cars. U0100 Lost comm.
Way to go Ivan. Super amazing excellent job as always. Could there be wire corrosion from the water damage? Also is it possible that replacing the tcm might not fix the problem?
I also want to take a minute to say that I hope you and your wife are safe from coronavirus. Also next time you do a video like that, you should bring Cuba with you. She's really good at this stuff too, and I'd love to see you and her do a diag together. STAY SAFE MAN.
Great video !!!
So, what killed the transmission control module? I'm wondering if they missed/damaged a ground wire during the cam chain replacement. The module is getting a "ground" through something when it's not running. Ground goes away when running.
Nice video , I also noticed Bernie doesn't put a trigger on when doing canbus , most guys do but hey each to their own method
That was crazy! Would've never in a million years thought of yanking the TCM fuse! Nissan for ya - do a timing belt, spike a TCM! Nightmare brand ...
I see you grabbed the Audew jump pack! Isn't that thing great? I've defied physics with mine, lol! Had a dead battery on my trailer winch - the Audew cranked up a Saturn sedan faster than that winch has EVER spun! I couldn't believe it. Winch battery completely died on me the next time I had to use it for a 2008 RX350 - I had to do that one TWICE, since my winch shifter detent failed and put the thing in free spool while I had the vehicle all the way up on the trailer!! It went careening back down off the trailer towards the woods and a stone wall! I had to SLAM it back in drive to stop it from going into the woods! So now I had to winch up the full length of the cable under load. I got the vehicle up there again (thank God) before the Audew died - that magic box that plugs into the unit with the positive and negative clamps fried itself. Took almost 3 months to get one from the mainland, lol. It's back up and running again. They sent it free, so that was great! Was months after I had bought it, too. Extremely impressed with that jump pack! I might buy a second one to have around in case I cook the box again. Good choice!
You can do the manual idle relearn with just throttle pedal & check engine light.
Surging idle on some GM cars was Throttle Positioning Sensor. Sometimes difficult to diagnose.
I really think the car just had a base electrical system problem. The cranking was slow and labored and other modules had voltage codes. Communication was also fine with the engine off, so I doubt it's an actual module problem. It sounds almost like the car was in a limp mode because the modules couldn't communicate with each other. I believe the reason communication stopped during cranking and engine running is because of the increased load on the battery. The squealing belt may also be an indicator of a stressed electrical system (the regulator was defaulting to full field to charge the battery, causing the belt to slip).
DiagnoseDan had a BMW (I think) with weird codes being thrown. The network was having issues. It’s problems were caused by the transmission control module.
Yup very similar scenario!!
Buzz Lightyear called and said he was glad he traded in that vehicle.😎
With all the modules able to communicate engine off, and the can bias going low on some modules with engine running, I would have leaned towards a power no longer being able to supply ample amperage with the load of everything running. You said you spent hours on this, did you check power at the pcm? Was unplugging the TCM reducing the load enough that the ECM now had proper voltage? Could unplugging the other modules do the same thing? Great work as always, just never seen you give up on something like this without more of a explanation. Perhaps the shop was less than pleasant to work for? Would love to hear the whole story, but yeah... Internet, you can't divulge everything.
Did you check powers and grounds on the tcm. It seemed to me that the shop misplaced the tcm ground during the timing chain work. Tcm seemed to be signalling okay but didn't have a proper reference on the can bus.
CAN signals offset - you have a ground issue somewhere. Would have been interesting to see what the ground looked like at your breakout box....
I had a similar problem with the infinity FX 50. During the repair, the workshop disconnected the throttle. The idle speed could no longer be set. Replacing the ECM fixed the topic, but then there were random communication problems throughout the car.
Miałem podobny problem z infinity FX 50. Podczas naprawy warsztat odłączył przepustnicę. Nie dało się już ustawić biegu jałowego. Wymiana ECM naprawiła temat, ale potem pojawiały się losowe problemy z komunikacją w całym samochodzie.
when u use a attenuator which one do you use. just ordered the launch like the one u show
Its not a ground problem because the signal middle line is falling from 2.5v to 2.0v when acting.. If it was GND problem i believe it would elevate from 2.5 to 3.0 when acting(the centerline). Also the spikes in the end of each data package confirms the good grounds.
I see you using the diagun mos often in your other vids... What does the x431 pro has over the diagun that made you spill the beans on a second unit of the same brand?
Had the same issue on a 2008 350z I swapped tcm with a know good one but the problem still remains. It's definitely a module throwing things off tcm or ecu .. it's definitely a head scratcher
If this all happened AFTER a timing chain job, I think my first step would be a close visual inspection of everything they touched on the front of that motor. In particular, all the electrical connections....
How did Keith ever learn about the transmission module messing up the canbus in the first place so he could pass on the knowledge well done to you both.
I van said Keith ran into this problem before.
He learned by trial and error.
@@tonyfremont Interesting theory. However the bad CAN packets had a LOWER than normal bias voltage while car was running, so that points to the grounds being OK, since a bad ground would cause elevated bias voltages :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics okay, I guess I didn't watch well enough. I could see what appeared to be whole packets at different levels relative to ground. Thanks for the response, I really appreciate that you took time to read it. You were on it quick. I moved my whole theory to the main level, instead of as a reply to this thread. :)
That's just what I was thinking a ground is absent somewhere and it's compensating to some other circuit to run
Wonder what kind of timing job was done if they couldn't even replace that pulley. I'm sure quality parts were used......
I had an 02 Altima 3.5 Could not do idle relearn. I gave up. I think the lady took it to the dealer. Nissan has some crazy procedures. Factory scan tool is a must, maybe. Why did the car idle good before?
Or maybe a bad sensor? Crankcase- , maybe cam-sensor or variable valve timing actuator? Wouldn't that also mess up the CAN signal? Were all readings clean with the TCM unplugged or was the ECM just running some default strategy because of no TCM, thus ignoring other bad inputs? On the other hand, would be interesting to know where the water intrusion was and wether the car was running fine before the chain-job..
Would be cool if you/the shop could get your hands on a one to try. Looks like the car would be usable if you could get it to run right. But I agree if the things already a "toilet" no point spending real money on it.
Hi brothers need your advice about my pathfinder 2001 vg3.3 engine when engine idle cylinder 3 and 4 no pulse from ecm but when I accelerate it's will come pulse by the way I'm using led light to check the pulse . Problem comes when engine is warm . Thanks in advance
There's a big possibility the car needs 2 (or more) ground cables connected to the top left side of timing chain cover. On minute 18:50 of the video, I spotted the top left side of the timing chain cover missing the ground cables, one for each thread. I could be wrong. I am going off the what the VQ37VHR has since it's a similar engine to the VQ35HR other than the difference in displacement. Again, I could be totally wrong.
Ivan, would the TCM be down by the floorboard where the interior was soaked with water? Maybe I missed something but checking the connector at least and maybe ground quality at the TCM seems like the next path before condemning the module. I hate getting beat on a repair by being constrained by a shoestring budget...
Great question Adam. TCM is internal to the transmission on this car unfortunately.
As soon as I saw the signal dropouts when the car started, I would have taken a can of De-Oxit and taken apart, sprayed and firmly reconnected each connector in the wiring harnesses that had been touched when the timing job was done, as well as the ones that were vital to communication with the ECM, TCM, cam/crank sensors, the accelerator pedal position sensor, throttle body sensor, and mass air flow sensor, and any connector in the engine control system that could have had resistance or corrosion build-up occur while the car was sitting up outside for 5 months, as well as checking the major engine block to battery negative connections and the negative battery connections to the engine cradle grounds and body grounds. Bad grounds are an epidemic in modern, computer-controlled cars.
I have the same exact issue right now on a 05 350z. Keeps revving between 1500 and 2000 rpm, takes the idle learn, no comms when started 😥
Replace that belt and pully while your at it. omg that squaking is annoying
ANNOYING RIGHT.
@@NoWr2Run he would have gotten a free belt change from me just so I could focus on the real issue and diagnostics
What do you use to cover a pierced hole in a wire to checked ?
Did you try replacing with another ECM?
Hey I want a Keith Defazio wild card!! Lol
oh "battery current sensor" that is screaming even louder at me ground or alternator putting out big ugly square/sawtooth waves. something like open diode/s, bad field winding, but maybe brushes gone and chattering. maybe alt and bad grounding both!
I have an 07 350z that’s manual and I have this exact idle problem, it happened after I cleaned the throttle bodies. So I tried the idle relearn about 1000 times and that didn’t work. So I then took it to my local Nissan dealer to get a diagnosis and they said basically their scanner isn’t communicating with the ecu and that I need a new one which is $2200 btw. I don’t think the issue is the ecu I think it’s something more like whats going on with the g35 in the video but since my z is a manual I’m not sure what I could disconnect to try and see if unplugging something will fix comms between the ecu and scanner. I would really appreciate some helpful feedback on this if anyone has any.
It needs "Forklift intrusion"
What's a good all around scanner, if you don't wanna break the bank?
Hmm Time for another guess I think, sensor plugged in backwards after timing chain job, causing comms to drop. That's where I'd start anyway ❤️😂🙈
Half way through... ooh this is bigger than a sensor issue, here I'd think I'd move on to isolating each module from the canbus, see if one of the modules is corrupt.
My G35 with the exact same engine had this issue after valve cover gaskets job. Changed the throttle bodies and it helped stop the surging but was still idling high. Any infinity dealership can fix it. What i know is that there was a software update and if you don't have that your computer will not communicate with the car to perform the idle relearn
Could’ve also been a bad ignition coil covered with oil, VQ35HR motors have bad valve covers that always leak on to the ignition coil/spark plugs
Buy the auction vehicle and finish your job 😜😂😂❤️
NO WAY hahaha
In my experience that idle surge has been to do with either an air leak, incorrect ignition or valve timing !
Well, then in your experience how does correcting an air leak, timing, or valve timing solve the canbus error problem?
There was definitely an air leak...because the throttle plates wouldn't close far enough haha
A bad flux capacitor inside of the TCM switching power supply is offsetting the bias voltage of the bus! Seriously nice diag Ivan you rock!
How do you get pico on a laptop?
I say bad grounds somewhere, engine/trans/body/frame/battery, possibly alternator putting out very high ripple whacking everything out ;)
i also heard you can download the launch software to any android or tablet have you looked into that
Not all device works well with Launch software
На русских автомобялях, я часто сталкиваюсь с потерей связи после запуска двигателя. Наверное, это связано с проблемой в системе зажигания.
Ivan do you think you couldn’t be able to communicate with the tcm if you tried it?
Great question! TCM talked fine when car was not running, but I did not try when it was running...
I’ve unplugged sensors with it running to get the idle to drop down enough. Nissan has a tsb about this. Then idle relearn should complete.
I bet is was a domino effect the battery sensor caused no power to the main circuit so then it had no com then the backup failed aswell
Didnt pull the o2 sensors and see if thats affecting your throttle. But my money is on a short is in the ground wire from from the alternator through the current sensor and making the alternator go up and down with load and without. Unplug the current sensor i bet it lines out.
If scope ground always goes to battery negative, then why do so many people swear by an isolated scope?
In my opinion, it really depends on the signal you are measuring. Good luck trying to measure the tiniest signal on a 2-wire active digital wheel speed sensor with your scope ground connected to battery negative. You don't need a diff scope for that, but you do need to put the scope ground on the sensor ground and not battery negative.
Now wait a minute...
The battery was definitely low, could hardly turn the engine over at the end. A non-communicating ECM could/would mean no alternator control - does it default to 14.5 V or no-charge?
If the car is running with 11-ish volts, all those problems - including a module that effs up the CAN - can occur. I see it quite often.
Car was charging fine when it was running. But yes the battery was marginal.
Hey could u please help I have a 2007 impala headlights come on then not juss parking brokers come on when I touch battery terminal I also have 2 blown fuses in the pcm please any help b great will b last 2.4 gm I eva buy I buy n sell cars I juss don't want this. Come bak haunt me I won't sell a vehicle less it's safe and reliable
It's need to put it in reverts so you can drop the rpm then you can relearn the throutle position..
Reverse
Just last week Had the same problem with 05 altima 2.5l after cleaning throttle had idle flares tried multiple relearns both manually and through scanner finally dropped it into gear to get flares to stop and then redid the idle learn and finally it relearned lost hrs trying to get that set and I don't think it said anything about putting it into gear when performing relearn
@@thomastorres4125 it had happened to me, too! 05 Nissan Altima (my sister’s). Was cleaning throttle body then had high idling (code p0507 if I remember correctly). Did Manually, didn’t help then tried Launch scanner and it worked!
Transmission had to be in park or neutral to do the relearn, and without the fuse in, the ECM couldn't see the TCM.
Great content as always, although you might want to consider hiding your personal info a little under 2 minutes in.
Why didn't they replace that pulley that is screeching . That engine reving like that would do my head in
Well Ivan you have gone from a Volvo to a 51+% Renault. Nissan used to build cars that were bullet proof but not anymore. Great video, did they get this car from a flood zone?
Ya they both used to make great cars not anymore
And that car is a 2007 the worst year to buy a Renault because in the 00s they were notorious for crap electrics
@@neilmurphy845 I had a 2003 Altima and was told by the tech boys that 2003 was the last year Nissan(Datsun) had real influence on production. Sad to see a company go down the tube.
@@IBenZik ya they were great cars
Sounds like someone pinched or broke wire connections while doing the timing chain replacement.
"... major water intrusion ..." Don't walk away ... RUN !!
Mine does this ?
You use to use your VERIS for all your diagnosis, now your using launch. Any reason for the change?
One scan tool will not do everything on cars.
@@TheCrazy243 Agree
Powers n grounds looks like it to me! Ok was wrong I admit it.
if the rpm is too high for idle relearn, put the car in gear with the foot on the brake until it finishes the relearn
The catch is that it won't start the procedure if the car is not in P or N.
recent timing job....can problems , my first guess was a bad ground. I wonder what poor soul will end up with this car from the auction lol
I hate that engine surging. It’s a 3.5liter version of a bad lawnmower.
Caught myself scratching my head, might have been itchy
Notice allot of you blokes going away from the Snapon scanners, any reason?
Yeah man win some lose some
Pity the poor person who wins this at an auction.
No kidding, talk about passing the buck.
I believe they disclose what the issue is from watching people who regularly buy auction cars, some kid will buy it stick a fart muffler on it and think it's the greatest thing in the world, mainly at least in my area the Hispanics buy these junks and go farting up and the street, I don't know what makes that sound but some backfire so bad that it sounds like a cannon going off.
Sounds like weak battery from the sounds of the cranking loose connections at battery