You're absolutely right! I put a bag with watermelon in the fridge, and they went from 0 to 200 in a second. Just moments before, we were laughing and talking. It truly blew me away.
Actually we don’t exist to a narcissist at all because they’ve never separated from mother & simply see everyone as mommy supply, even their own kids 💔❤️🩹♥️
I saw my therapist two days ago and I said that I felt invisible. Then I told her about what I had been holding in - the pain of his trying to kill me during the discard stage.
As divorce papers are being served today… after 30 years of being married to a brilliant theoretical physicist who ranged from sweet interaction with small children and love bombs out of the blue…to near violent physical fights (evil hate spewing from every body pore and breath). Your UA-cam videos have been invaluable for my anchoring of Reality v. Being contorted internally, mentally and draining my vital energies. When, after 30 years of being persona non grata. My childhood patterns from my functional alcoholic narcissistic father who abandoned me for huge stretches of time…. I had a “cutting the chords” moment - was not ever going to have this abuse again in my life. I am worthy of respect and love in all areas and relationships in my life! Just took a deep breath in texting this. The burdens are real and are being lifted in my daily living. Daily prayers, meditation and exercise are all needed for my recovery from a whole era of abuse from narcissistic personality disorders. The capacity for returning to my core true self is possible in quiet prayerful ways. Acknowledging Higher Power is the most genuine way for me to build trust within for Safety to reach forward and outward. Thank you for your service, God Bless you!❤
My father was a malignant narcissist and I divorced five months ago after a 40 year marriage to a malignant narcissist. I wanted to let you know that you are not alone.
Same here. After I told him how much it hurt me, he found every chance to do it. Silence then rage. That's all there was at the end. I finally left after 21 years together. Its not easy, but it is peaceful.
These relationships only snowball. You can get out! No matter the circumstances, impossibility, and loss involved. It will literally save your life. Emotionally and physically. Im a living example to testify.
I'll take the indifference over the rage. At this point, the indifference does not effect me at least there is quiet in the house. Rage is scary, the throwing things, breaking things; that I can absolutely do without.
Never thought about their indifference. Thanks for that distinction! What affects me more is their indifference to how much their rage and their behavior affects me and my mother.
For me, definitely the indifference! Rage is terrifying and sometimes dangerous, but at least you have something solid to react to. You can see that their behaviour is abnormal and crazy. But indifference and neglect give you nothing to react to or push back against. At least if someone is screaming at you, they are treating you like you exist and focusing all their attention on you, however negative. By contrast, neglect and indifference are like a slow-release poison. Over time, it leaves you feeling like you don't exist at all.
They are both very dangerous, one just is quieter than the other but the end result is the same. Leaving you feeling empty and sad. Going no contact is the best way.
The rage is a trigger from my childhood. I told him I don’t deal with that behavior and that it would be a deal breaker. When I got Lyme disease he decided to weaponize it along with the other few deal breaker things. Because my brain was affected with the Lyme and its cronies,I had forgotten the conversation when I explained why these behaviors wouldn’t work for me. His goals were to get me to leave while he looked like the wonderful husband that’s he could take at times. The reverse discard took years because I just kept trying to reach him. Rage equals fear and danger to me. However, the disinterest and pretending I don’t exist or matter, well that really poses me off because I never ask for help unless I’m desperate,I prefer to do it all myself even if I’m crawling to accomplish things. Both suck but I’d rather be ignored. I’d rather feel my emotions and avoid the fawning or panic mode.
I preferred the indifference, because I could go to another room or something and read or whatever. The rage made me want to fight back, which I knew was not going to go well. So, I just took it,because I knew silence was coming.
Wow! How timely is this?! Just the other day, after listening to one of Dr. Ramani's videos on my lunch break, I got furious at the 2 narcissists in my life. Thank goodness I have amazing coworkers who covered for me while I dealt with it. One of them noticed my distress and asked me if I was okay. I told them that I was very angry and that anger is VERY uncomfortable for me, if not downright scary. For maybe the first time in my 40 yrs of living, I didn't try to run from the feeling, I allowed myself to sit with it and really feel it, and I dealt with it in a healthy way. I wrote for 2 hours straight! After, I really wanted someone to read what I wrote, but I know that there's too much trauma in it for almost anyone else to read. I realized that what I really wanted was for someone to validate me. So, instead of getting validation from someone else, I went into the bathroom, looked myself in the eyes in the mirror, and validated myself. Something I've very rarely been able to do. It still feels weird to say this, but I am so proud of myself! I've grown so much over the last 2 years. Much of that is due to Dr. Ramani. She, therapy, and hard work have really changed my life!
The indifference from my mother. Nothing like your mother's apathy to mess you up for life. Silent treatment is destroying AND no one believes how "bad" it really is. No validation for that kind of abuse
For me, I prefer the indifference. Much more so than the rage. In fact, my abuser might even tell other people that I give him the silent treatment because I try to stay away from him fort out of his way often when I know he might be in a foul mood or be triggered into one for the day or the week. When they're indifferent, the less they are focused on me, the less they can learn my moves to use against me for persecution, to ridicule me, try to hurt me emotionally and physically. I'd rather not be in their spotlight. That is quite a lonely decision to make, however
Growing up, my mother's rage was terrifying. It still is now that I'm an adult. Her anger is a relentless onslaught with no end. My mother is one of those who uses her anger to regulate herself; afterwards she behaved like nothing ever happened and I'm stunned and panicking at what I just witnessed. During my 'marriage,' my ex husband's indifference destroyed me. The one and only time he raged at me and raised his voice was when I asked him to help me and compromise and I refused to relent. He had to scream at me and put me down to make sure I knew he was boss. Go figure. I prefer indifference. I cannot at all handle yelling or loud noises anymore. Give me pure, 100% old fashioned quiet indifference. I've learned how to do my own thing, and it bothers me less. I refuse to let other people's garbage moods control me. Thanks, Dr. Ramani.
Indifference for sure. He would take off for a couple days and never heard from him. Over 2 years separated and divorce finalized in April…. I am finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel! Praise God!
Rage is the worst for the kids and I. It internally shakes everyone. I’ll take his indifference because it brings some peace. With that being said, indifference lasts for a short time and we still walk on eggshells knowing he will need to rage and anything can or will set him off. Two edged sword. 🗡️
Ask them to do something for you. Something small. Something you would do for them with no hesitation. If they are narcissistic or otherwise toxic, it will ALWAYS go at least 1 of 4 ways (though sometimes these reactions may compound): They will act as though they didn’t hear you. Depending on how long you’ve been in the relationship, you may ask again. If it’s been long enough, you’re likely to drop the request right then and there. They will promise to do it, but never follow through. If you ask again or remind them, they will usually have some kind of excuse. In these cases, they will still never actually fulfill their promise. Their excuse is not a reason for lagging, it is the reason they should be absolved from all expectation whatsoever. Often this excuse will be meaningless or an outright lie.If you don’t buy their excuse, and tell them so, you will experience the wonderful segue into reaction. An argument will ensue The argument will be your fault. It could be a small back and forth contending against your request, or it might quickly devolve into them screaming at you. You never know which it will be. They might even say outright that you should never ask or expect anything from them. Usually they will express that you are asking too much, hurting them in some way (financially, emotionally, insulting them, etc), or attack your character. The argument will only end when you relinquish your request + apologize, or start ignoring them completely. If you can ignore them long enough, they may apologize to you. However, the conflict will never feel truly resolved. At this juncture they may actually end up giving you what you asked for. Often this does require you admitting that you don’t really need it, or that you would be fine with what they suggested instead. This leads us to reaction They give you what you asked for, BUT There is ALWAYS a catch. It might be small. They show up late with no apology. They buy you what you wanted, but it’s the wrong color, model, brand, etc. They take you where you wanted to go, but pressure you the whole time you’re getting ready because you’re going to be sooo late. Then they want to leave early anyway. It might be worse. They do it out of anger, and make a big display out of it to scare/hurt you. They hold it over your head until you do something for them first. Or, later on, they use it against you. “I did x for you, so you should do y for me.” No matter what, you never actually feel fulfilled, happy, or loved when they do something for you. Somehow, even from the getgo, there was this deep-seated feeling of guilt and fear, this sense that the “special” things they were doing for you weren’t so special at all. Eventually, you become afraid to ask for anything. You’ve been conditioned to believe you deserve nothing. Ironically, or not, the less demands you make, the worse you will be treated. Moreover, Catching a cheating spouse might be difficult, and knowing what local laws say you can and cannot do might be even more difficult. To simplify the process, consider hiring a private investigator to do the sleuthing for you I genuinely appreciate how incredible you are and your work! Thank you for a job well done digitalinvestigate@gmail. com
The indifference hurts more, lasts longer, and infuriates me. The rage is scarier by far, knocks you off balance, and leaves your head spinning. It's all bad.
It’s so hard to pick which one is worse. The rage is terrifying but the indifference is soul crushing. I have an elderly parent who is the definition of narcissism. I used to get both of those from him. I had to go no contact for my own sanity.
Their over-focus on me and their anger at me. That is what hurts me the most. At least for the one who is indifferent towards me, I have others who validate my feelings and who truly care. ❤
They're over focused on me and angry. She gaslit me and broke my heart , she doesn't speak to me but about me to my kids and others to hide what she did. My own sister. She's a good liar and did scream and yell at me. I can. Handle that now, but , it's my grown kids that believe her and I can't get thru to them what she did. The lies. The blame for a decision my dad made. She didn't treat him well and his wife. My dad didn't want her to know when he passed until after his service because she hadn't had a relationship with him for 25 years unless it was an angry letter to him. Then a paternity test. It hurt me not to tell her and there were 6 of us kids who couldn't tell her. But I got the worst of the blame. I know it hurt her. She did it to me years ago with her husband of 35 years. I couldn't be with her through it or say goodbye to him. She said it was about her not him. We live two hours apart. She's always been controlling of me but I let it go because I didn't want to fight.
I definitely prefer indifference over rage. Silent treatments used to hurt me, but after a while, they became like a vacation from fighting and arguing.
For me indifference is mentally painful. Rage in my world was physically painful and came with threats of deletion which was absolutely terrifying and 100% possible .
After 6 years I family ended December 31 I was so tired of the lies of the ghosting and the abuse of always being so needy especially for stealing money I feel 150 pounds lighter I am starting to heal my body but the mind will take what time it needs Mine was never a rager he just ghosted and the next day as if nothing happened. Thank you so much I bought your book and I listen to every word you speak It will take time but I know I will be fine I have a wonderful sister and friends
Experiencing both the indifference and rage of a narcissist can be incredibly painful. What really gets me is how, when they treat me nicely, I fall right in line and crave their attention. I had to stop myself because I didn't like how I kept falling for it.
The reception of His targeted Rage stayed in My body much longer - it was like being shot with a shotgun - immediate shock and lasting nervousness and anxiety for hours
The rage where they suddenly start screaming and you are standing there wondering what you just did or said. That affects me way more than indifference. You are correct, it has to do with the personality of the person. My mother was indifferent, so I was used to it, but my father raged, and I never got used to that. I prefer indifference because I don't have to deal with them.
Rage. Today, second time I was assaulted in four attempts, stitches on the back of my head. edit: rage hurts more because of the kids, indifference does not prompt my 4 year old daughter to defend me, poor sweet angel.
I did realize I had a "preference" after awhile and I knew how toxic it was that I had these thoughts at all, but I dismissed the red flags anyways. I went to my pro-con list of "boundaries" which after over 15 years was just "Don't blowup in public and keep your hands of the kids" Which were good boundaries that were followed but that part was easy since we were reclusive with no community ties (no friends, religion, family or employment) and our children were school age. I used to prefer rage for the basic finite emotion, it had a beginning and an end. When he would get mad for not reading his mind or in his case "If you loved me you would already have known" was where I became paranoid. The suspense I felt from the unknown would make Steven King tremble, where I valued the time he slept significantly because there was no obligation to read his mind...but he started to notice me jump every time he woke up. It was also damned if I do or damned if I don't. If I tried to do something he complained about the previous day to help him wake up in a more positive mood, he would just focus on anything I hadn't done and complain when I got exhausted or overwhelmed because technically he never told me to do those previous chores so I should have known better. ... it was relentless and panic attacks were daily. But at least when he raged then I at least knew what was on his mind. Honestly, I sometimes gave him permission to hit me or tear me down just so he could get it out before the kids got home from school. ... I didn't notice just how bad it was or how manipulated I was until a year ago when I finally called 911 and they arrested him for DV, child endangerment, resisting arrest and battery on a leo which led to him being tased twice and having to be carried out by 4 officers. I was forced to go no-contact and it ended up giving me the biggest reality check, feeling like I just ran into a brick wall after a high speed chase. I'm still feeling the suspense a year later; I took a restraining out on him 3 months later and filed for divorce a couple of weeks after that...but trying to rewire my brain from the extent of the manipulations is as easy as cleaning a feather after it's been sitting in tar for years. ...
Rage can be brutal and sometimes a way to torment the victim. I'm in my forties and finnancially dependant on my narcissistic mother, she's a beast, she yells at me when I borrow money to buy food and medicine and there's no way for me to find a job in my country. I hate my life, I'm trapped
I was so numb to it all. I was groomed to not react outwardly. I just took it. The indifference was confusing. I did not understand. I did not recognize it as indifference. I did recognize being treated as bags of trash and being discarded which of course the narcissist denied. What I did recognize was the rage events. They would go on for 6-8 hours and more. I stopped trying to defend my views in the hope the rage events would shorten. They did not and they were always about the same thing which I was accused of starting. I never asked him to do anything except for a rare gallon of milk. I remember sitting on the sofa wishing I could record the event so I could ask someone if this was normal. I am out now and yet still struggle. Some days more than others. As I said, I was groomed. I would have relinquished Everything. More than I already had. Fortunately, he left for someone he thought was better. She's not. But it gave me time away and with therapy, the ability to really see things as they were. I will get thru it, my therapist says the longer it takes to heal is an indicator of the amt of abuse. Sadly, people who have not experienced it first hand will never understand. And even today, I still have to fight the hoovering And the Euphoric Recall. Ty Dr Ramani for lighting the way to our paths of healing.
Indifferent silence is devastating. Being ignored and not worthy of existing... when you can't see yourself reflected in their eyes anymore. It's like soul murder. Rage makes me tremble and shake, but the silence makes me feel unworthy of existing.
I think the scenario that scares me the most is when I was expected to mind read but didn't. My mother used to make a disappointed huff at me when she told me something she expected me to know but I had never been taught. She would say "You can't, you can't" when the thing I was about to do was legal, moral and ethical. My ex kept ranting at me that I had to put my daughter on my auto insurance without telling me why. In fact, he had had another accident and his premiums would have increased significantly if he had to keep my daughter's accident on his policy. Meanwhile, I was never even told about the accident. Let's keep Mom in the dark and feed her BS!
For me, it’s situational and whether or not it’s consequential. I know that one narcissist might actually kill me. Another might fire me. Another, let ‘em stew, even when they display anger, because I don’t need to invest in their anger. To a point, I see their indifference as a defense mechanism for them. That they cannot possibly have the capacity to think about me, when they’re so busy licking their wounds and playing the victim over what I haven’t even done to them. And, before someone says, “Are you sure you haven’t done anything to them,” usually it has been things like me just getting my share of the estate that they’d decided they’d simply take or not cooperating with coercion. If I’m “doing” something to them, it’s about as passive as possible, because I don’t want to engage with them, because I don’t see myself as being in a relationship with them, even if we were formerly related.
Definitely, the indifference. This is for me an umbrella term that includes the emotional neglect, the invalidation, the refusal to hear you out let alone LISTEN when you try to explain how you feel, or the feeling of being transparent until you are useful for something. Like many others have said, although the rage is demoralizing and frustrating, at least it is a moment of attention. Mine was a Drama King who thrived on drama and constant pity partying.
Gosh. Forme it’s indifference. This community has been a shining light for me. So sorry that you’ve experienced the abuse. I think it’s crazy that this personality disorder isn’t more widely known. Why do good people have to live the experience? We warn people about smoking and drinking and obesity. Not one warning about narcissistic disorders.
Over focus. My mother is too enmeshed and calls it love and concern. Then I get the silent treatment which sucks, too. She's covert, so there's no yelling. She resorts to guilt and shame to manipulate me into behaving the way she wants. And once she is done criticizing me, belittling me, telling me how I treat her badly, she feels better. She even admits it when she's through. I have all the texts.
As the invisible/mascot I am so much more comfortable with the indifference but both often just comes down to not really being seen which always hurts.
Indifference is by far the worst for me. It causes more sorrow to build up, which ends up increasing my rage, which can have no ‘reasonable’ outlet. It comes out in dreams of a narc raging at me, invalidating me and treating me with contempt, which feeds my rage. Their rage doesn’t bother me that much. I can face that down. Although withdrawal and silence are also rage.
I think it depends on where you are in/out of the relationship with the narcissist. Indifference hurts most when you're still holding on to hope. The indifference to the children's emotions still triggers me, but now that I 'see' him for what he is, the explosive anger makes me so anxious and disgusted, I came to welcome the silent treatment. My ex's favorite narcissistic torture technique was to simultaneously snub me and any accountability for his behavior, while talking out loud to himself constantly, singing to music on his headphones or yelling at the TV. Infuriating and hard not to respond to.
I've been trying to think many things through. The subhuman narcissist actions can clearly be seen. And despite the damage and pain that they inflicted, in so many ways. I also have experienced how difficult it has been for me to change my own habits. The narcissists are the way they are for reasons. So am I. And somehow I expected that somehow they would change. That I could teach a pig to sing. Pigs that see no reason to learn. And maybe I thought the pigs would somehow see the light and use good polite table manners. My own change has been difficult, often painful. And I've thought pigs who believe they were getting what they want would see the light. Even the flying monkeys refuse to change. It's just not going to happen. And the pain and damage that has caused humanity so much destruction continues .
Mine is covert, so there's hardly ever audible raging. The silent, hateful 'raging' is terrifying and assaulting. The indifference internally incenses and insults me. The opposite of love is not hate, it’s indifference. Elie Wiesel, a Holocaust survivor and Nobel prize-winning peace activist.
Depends on the person. But I fear the rage, because they care about self image. But indifference is great because if you can match that, it in turn will scare them.
It depends on the narcissist which hurts me more. My ex and my sister try to punish me by ignoring me and treating me like I don't matter. My mother could hurt me more by by raging at me and condemning me.
The silent treatment was worse for me. Ex would yell and then gaslight into "I'm not yelling because I can be louder." I ended up recording every conversation we had, because I was doubting my memory and intention of my words after with the amount of twisting. So the yelling let me reflect that nope, I'm not crazy. Whereas silent treatment made me wonder if I even said the words outloud.
Both if we talking about parents. Rage ripping us immediately and is visible Indifference leaving "black hole" that is hard to fill up even in our grown up time
SHe cycled prob 6x thru anger. rage, friendship, gaslighting over a 30 minute drive - that broke thru my gray rock. As we got out of the car she said "Well, at least we are friends".
My younger daughter was indifferent to me and found ways to avoid me, my older daughter was the screaming Rager person, and wanted me to do everything for her. I think they were equally harmful.
Both Christmas and our first child's birthday have passed without a word from him. On one hand, both days were peaceful and lovely not having to deal with him, but it hurts like hell that he's sending the very clear message that he does not care. It's an interesting emotion to navigate.
I didn’t realize how much the indifference triggers me (and then the variety of ways it is displayed )when I encounter it with other people it triggers, big time -It was the source of the family and relatives means of rage incredibly hurtful, and hits the soul.
Their indifference and inability to even see the other side of the story and the fact that I literally had to catch him telling me the most obvious bold face lies on more than one occasion about his whereabouts. Just the lie itself was an instant betrayal and hurt me the most amongst other behaviors with his need to spend money on things he clearly can’t afford causing me to almost lose my savings, taking on job roles for superiority but not to be a team player but just for power of that role but transfers positions/ locations often, finding out about the dating site he had under an different names and the multiple phones, laptops, and Apple Watches he keeps with him and the level of stalking behavior after blocking and moving away and just moving on. It’s insane!
I also really need to hear this right now cause I miss my ex like mad currently. It’s been a year no contact and I need to keep it that way. I need to remember why we will never work.
Then indifference is so hard. He never had much rage. I did. The detachment. The emotional unavailability was sooooo hurtful All those childhood triggers. He was exactly the same as my mother No contact with them both. Healing and recovery and growth happens daily
The indifference, the silent treatment, the withdrawal, and withholding. Found out his mother had cancer from his kids. He never told me directly but openly discussed it with friends and other people. Oh, and we went through the rage phase. I became indifferent.
When my ex friend found a boyfriend, I decided to react to it, the same way she reacted to me getting a boyfriend: «I am so happy for you. love is great. All the best xxx» she was shocked! She expected the drop everything and devote the next days to this topic! As I always had done for her. But I was in therapy and I did not care. Thank you, you changed my life❤
Indifference hurts me while rage scares me
Exactly!
scares the shit out of me
Me, too.
@@tayuu2001Yes! My ex-husband tried to kill me.
@@JackieFerrell-f6o I am so so sorry to hear this. I hope you're safe 🙏
Indifference is a slow cooker. Anger is a frying pan. But they both cook, just in different ways.
I like that analogy
We tend to descend into indifferent situations with covert narcissists after we were raised with overt malignant narcissists
Absolutely 💯
The rage comes out of nowhere. That throws me off.
That’s the point of cut but gray rock gets you control over the situation & takes the power away from them
This happened to me, too. I was terrified.
You're absolutely right! I put a bag with watermelon in the fridge, and they went from 0 to 200 in a second. Just moments before, we were laughing and talking. It truly blew me away.
Rage became evidence for when I finally left, the neighbours upstairs knew then, he was nuts!!!! In the end I'd just smile and go out for awhile.
@@C.Carolinasyes! Literally one minute talking and laughing and the next absolute misery
One feels like a slow and painful death, and the other is quick and still painful. Either way, they’re both traumatizing.
I like how you said this. I agree, too.
Great comment
The indifference, it’s like you don’t exist! The rage scares me…
Actually we don’t exist to a narcissist at all because they’ve never separated from mother & simply see everyone as mommy supply, even their own kids 💔❤️🩹♥️
I saw my therapist two days ago and I said that I felt invisible. Then I told her about what I had been holding in - the pain of his trying to kill me during the discard stage.
Silence is as painful as a weapon as the rage and lashing out. Ugh. For me, silence is worse. But silence is absolutely a weapon.
No matter how much you tell them, they don't care.
I just came back from the doctor. He didn’t ask me anything. We’ve been married for 17 years. 3 beautiful kids. I feel so lonely.
Indifference is how you get hooked.
Always chasing the reciprocity….
Rage is why you stay.
Fear is the controller……
Hot & cold behavior is the first sign of an abuser 👍 fool me once… I’m gone 😉
Yes.
Their rage. Indifference means they leave me alone, which is fine with me.
As divorce papers are being served today… after 30 years of being married to a brilliant theoretical physicist who ranged from sweet interaction with small children and love bombs out of the blue…to near violent physical fights (evil hate spewing from every body pore and breath). Your UA-cam videos have been invaluable for my anchoring of Reality v. Being contorted internally, mentally and draining my vital energies. When, after 30 years of being persona non grata. My childhood patterns from my functional alcoholic narcissistic father who abandoned me for huge stretches of time…. I had a “cutting the chords” moment - was not ever going to have this abuse again in my life. I am worthy of respect and love in all areas and relationships in my life! Just took a deep breath in texting this. The burdens are real and are being lifted in my daily living. Daily prayers, meditation and exercise are all needed for my recovery from a whole era of abuse from narcissistic personality disorders. The capacity for returning to my core true self is possible in quiet prayerful ways. Acknowledging Higher Power is the most genuine way for me to build trust within for Safety to reach forward and outward. Thank you for your service, God Bless you!❤
You’re stronger than you know ☮️ peace is possible on the other side of CPTSD
My father was a malignant narcissist and I divorced five months ago after a 40 year marriage to a malignant narcissist. I wanted to let you know that you are not alone.
Be Blessed and Be a Blessing 💜
I wish you well you brave woman .
Power Persevering in Prayers Psalms 1-150🙏❤️
Indifference hurts me more. For me the indifference is also something that is frightening.
Definitely the indifference. He could ignore me completely for a week or more and he knew what that did to me.
Same here. After I told him how much it hurt me, he found every chance to do it. Silence then rage. That's all there was at the end. I finally left after 21 years together. Its not easy, but it is peaceful.
Thank you Dr Ramani for all that you do!!
These relationships only snowball.
You can get out!
No matter the circumstances, impossibility, and loss involved.
It will literally save your life.
Emotionally and physically.
Im a living example to testify.
Me 2 👍
I'll take the indifference over the rage. At this point, the indifference does not effect me at least there is quiet in the house. Rage is scary, the throwing things, breaking things; that I can absolutely do without.
Never thought about their indifference. Thanks for that distinction! What affects me more is their indifference to how much their rage and their behavior affects me and my mother.
For me, definitely the indifference!
Rage is terrifying and sometimes dangerous, but at least you have something solid to react to. You can see that their behaviour is abnormal and crazy. But indifference and neglect give you nothing to react to or push back against. At least if someone is screaming at you, they are treating you like you exist and focusing all their attention on you, however negative. By contrast, neglect and indifference are like a slow-release poison. Over time, it leaves you feeling like you don't exist at all.
Rage. 100% rage is worse. I grew up with a malignant narc mother who raged at me daily. Indifference felt like a break.
I agree. being left alone
Same with me. I had the same situation with a narc mother who raged at me daily. Indifference seemed like a break.
Feeling invisible is the worst feeling in the world for me. Got it from mother, father, brother, sister, and husband, and it feels like being dead.
They are both very dangerous, one just is quieter than the other but the end result is the same. Leaving you feeling empty and sad. Going no contact is the best way.
As a child, my mother's rages were terrifying. The indifference was devastating.
Definitely over focus and anger on me. When I am ignored, more free time to be me again!
I agree. It’s that way for me too.
Same. When I was a child, I hid in my room as much as possible and spent so much time fantasizing about being invisible so my parents couldn't see me.
@arialee1008 lol, that's adorable. Adorable in the child way of figuring out how to deal.
While indifference doesn't feel good, the rage hurt me more, because it was so vindictive and scary!
There is no preference to which type of intolerable behavior they present with. It is unacceptable and should be avoided when possible.
The rage is a trigger from my childhood. I told him I don’t deal with that behavior and that it would be a deal breaker. When I got Lyme disease he decided to weaponize it along with the other few deal breaker things. Because my brain was affected with the Lyme and its cronies,I had forgotten the conversation when I explained why these behaviors wouldn’t work for me. His goals were to get me to leave while he looked like the wonderful husband that’s he could take at times. The reverse discard took years because I just kept trying to reach him. Rage equals fear and danger to me. However, the disinterest and pretending I don’t exist or matter, well that really poses me off because I never ask for help unless I’m desperate,I prefer to do it all myself even if I’m crawling to accomplish things. Both suck but I’d rather be ignored. I’d rather feel my emotions and avoid the fawning or panic mode.
I preferred the indifference, because I could go to another room or something and read or whatever.
The rage made me want to fight back, which I knew was not going to go well. So, I just took it,because I knew silence was coming.
I hate their rage. Detachment is fine. Indifference is good. I ignore him. He is a tool.
The rage is like being hit by a car out of nowhere.
The indifference is like being backed over in slow motion.
Well said.
SO well said. Yes!
Wow! How timely is this?! Just the other day, after listening to one of Dr. Ramani's videos on my lunch break, I got furious at the 2 narcissists in my life. Thank goodness I have amazing coworkers who covered for me while I dealt with it. One of them noticed my distress and asked me if I was okay. I told them that I was very angry and that anger is VERY uncomfortable for me, if not downright scary. For maybe the first time in my 40 yrs of living, I didn't try to run from the feeling, I allowed myself to sit with it and really feel it, and I dealt with it in a healthy way. I wrote for 2 hours straight! After, I really wanted someone to read what I wrote, but I know that there's too much trauma in it for almost anyone else to read. I realized that what I really wanted was for someone to validate me. So, instead of getting validation from someone else, I went into the bathroom, looked myself in the eyes in the mirror, and validated myself. Something I've very rarely been able to do. It still feels weird to say this, but I am so proud of myself! I've grown so much over the last 2 years. Much of that is due to Dr. Ramani. She, therapy, and hard work have really changed my life!
Brilliant. Narcissism has many different faces and expressions. It's important to know them.
They're terrifying rage. When you're a child it was the worst. Especially when it's a step parent who you knew as a 3yr old wasn't safe.
rage scares me and pisses me off. I don't care about indifference, because I don't depend on them anymore: emotionally or financially.
The indifference from my mother. Nothing like your mother's apathy to mess you up for life. Silent treatment is destroying AND no one believes how "bad" it really is. No validation for that kind of abuse
Here to validate you! Your mom sucks! I hope you’ve been able to go no contact.
For me, I prefer the indifference. Much more so than the rage. In fact, my abuser might even tell other people that I give him the silent treatment because I try to stay away from him fort out of his way often when I know he might be in a foul mood or be triggered into one for the day or the week. When they're indifferent, the less they are focused on me, the less they can learn my moves to use against me for persecution, to ridicule me, try to hurt me emotionally and physically. I'd rather not be in their spotlight. That is quite a lonely decision to make, however
same
Growing up, my mother's rage was terrifying. It still is now that I'm an adult. Her anger is a relentless onslaught with no end. My mother is one of those who uses her anger to regulate herself; afterwards she behaved like nothing ever happened and I'm stunned and panicking at what I just witnessed.
During my 'marriage,' my ex husband's indifference destroyed me. The one and only time he raged at me and raised his voice was when I asked him to help me and compromise and I refused to relent. He had to scream at me and put me down to make sure I knew he was boss. Go figure.
I prefer indifference. I cannot at all handle yelling or loud noises anymore. Give me pure, 100% old fashioned quiet indifference. I've learned how to do my own thing, and it bothers me less. I refuse to let other people's garbage moods control me.
Thanks, Dr. Ramani.
Indifference for sure. He would take off for a couple days and never heard from him. Over 2 years separated and divorce finalized in April…. I am finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel! Praise God!
It is a blessed relief, isn't it? Heal welll. Be well.
@ thank you. You too !
The rage is worse. I am able to detach from the narc now that I know how they use the tool of detachment.
I don't care about the indifference any more ..its the rage that cones out of know where and causes physical and phycological stress
Rage is the worst for the kids and I. It internally shakes everyone. I’ll take his indifference because it brings some peace. With that being said, indifference lasts for a short time and we still walk on eggshells knowing he will need to rage and anything can or will set him off. Two edged sword. 🗡️
Ask them to do something for you. Something small. Something you would do for them with no hesitation. If they are narcissistic or otherwise toxic, it will ALWAYS go at least 1 of 4 ways (though sometimes these reactions may compound): They will act as though they didn’t hear you. Depending on how long you’ve been in the relationship, you may ask again. If it’s been long enough, you’re likely to drop the request right then and there.
They will promise to do it, but never follow through.
If you ask again or remind them, they will usually have some kind of excuse. In these cases, they will still never actually fulfill their promise. Their excuse is not a reason for lagging, it is the reason they should be absolved from all expectation whatsoever. Often this excuse will be meaningless or an outright lie.If you don’t buy their excuse, and tell them so, you will experience the wonderful segue into reaction.
An argument will ensue
The argument will be your fault. It could be a small back and forth contending against your request, or it might quickly devolve into them screaming at you. You never know which it will be. They might even say outright that you should never ask or expect anything from them. Usually they will express that you are asking too much, hurting them in some way (financially, emotionally, insulting them, etc), or attack your character.
The argument will only end when you relinquish your request + apologize, or start ignoring them completely. If you can ignore them long enough, they may apologize to you. However, the conflict will never feel truly resolved.
At this juncture they may actually end up giving you what you asked for. Often this does require you admitting that you don’t really need it, or that you would be fine with what they suggested instead. This leads us to reaction
They give you what you asked for, BUT
There is ALWAYS a catch. It might be small. They show up late with no apology. They buy you what you wanted, but it’s the wrong color, model, brand, etc. They take you where you wanted to go, but pressure you the whole time you’re getting ready because you’re going to be sooo late. Then they want to leave early anyway. It might be worse. They do it out of anger, and make a big display out of it to scare/hurt you. They hold it over your head until you do something for them first. Or, later on, they use it against you. “I did x for you, so you should do y for me.” No matter what, you never actually feel fulfilled, happy, or loved when they do something for you. Somehow, even from the getgo, there was this deep-seated feeling of guilt and fear, this sense that the “special” things they were doing for you weren’t so special at all. Eventually, you become afraid to ask for anything. You’ve been conditioned to believe you deserve nothing. Ironically, or not, the less demands you make, the worse you will be treated. Moreover, Catching a cheating spouse might be difficult, and knowing what local laws say you can and cannot do might be even more difficult. To simplify the process, consider hiring a private investigator to do the sleuthing for you I genuinely appreciate how incredible you are and your work! Thank you for a job well done digitalinvestigate@gmail. com
The angered…. I looked forward to the alone time when he did the other
The indifference hurts more, lasts longer, and infuriates me. The rage is scarier by far, knocks you off balance, and leaves your head spinning. It's all bad.
It’s so hard to pick which one is worse. The rage is terrifying but the indifference is soul crushing. I have an elderly parent who is the definition of narcissism. I used to get both of those from him. I had to go no contact for my own sanity.
Their over-focus on me and their anger at me. That is what hurts me the most. At least for the one who is indifferent towards me, I have others who validate my feelings and who truly care. ❤
They're over focused on me and angry. She gaslit me and broke my heart , she doesn't speak to me but about me to my kids and others to hide what she did. My own sister. She's a good liar and did scream and yell at me. I can. Handle that now, but , it's my grown kids that believe her and I can't get thru to them what she did. The lies. The blame for a decision my dad made. She didn't treat him well and his wife. My dad didn't want her to know when he passed until after his service because she hadn't had a relationship with him for 25 years unless it was an angry letter to him. Then a paternity test. It hurt me not to tell her and there were 6 of us kids who couldn't tell her. But I got the worst of the blame. I know it hurt her. She did it to me years ago with her husband of 35 years. I couldn't be with her through it or say goodbye to him. She said it was about her not him. We live two hours apart. She's always been controlling of me but I let it go because I didn't want to fight.
I definitely prefer indifference over rage. Silent treatments used to hurt me, but after a while, they became like a vacation from fighting and arguing.
The indifference used to hurt but the rage hurts more now. During periods of indifference I feel relief now and wish it was permanent.
For me indifference is mentally painful. Rage in my world was physically painful and came with threats of deletion which was absolutely terrifying and 100% possible .
The over focus on me never stops unless he is asleep, so I’m going to go with the rage.
After 6 years I family ended December 31 I was so tired of the lies of the ghosting and the abuse of always being so needy especially for stealing money
I feel 150 pounds lighter I am starting to heal my body but the mind will take what time it needs
Mine was never a rager he just ghosted and the next day as if nothing happened.
Thank you so much I bought your book and I listen to every word you speak
It will take time but I know I will be fine
I have a wonderful sister and friends
Experiencing both the indifference and rage of a narcissist can be incredibly painful. What really gets me is how, when they treat me nicely, I fall right in line and crave their attention. I had to stop myself because I didn't like how I kept falling for it.
There’s no end to rage. There’s just a pause in between. ❤
The reception of His targeted Rage stayed in My body much longer - it was like being shot with a shotgun - immediate shock and lasting nervousness and anxiety for hours
The rage where they suddenly start screaming and you are standing there wondering what you just did or said. That affects me way more than indifference. You are correct, it has to do with the personality of the person. My mother was indifferent, so I was used to it, but my father raged, and I never got used to that. I prefer indifference because I don't have to deal with them.
Rage. Today, second time I was assaulted in four attempts, stitches on the back of my head.
edit: rage hurts more because of the kids, indifference does not prompt my 4 year old daughter to defend me, poor sweet angel.
I did realize I had a "preference" after awhile and I knew how toxic it was that I had these thoughts at all, but I dismissed the red flags anyways. I went to my pro-con list of "boundaries" which after over 15 years was just "Don't blowup in public and keep your hands of the kids" Which were good boundaries that were followed but that part was easy since we were reclusive with no community ties (no friends, religion, family or employment) and our children were school age. I used to prefer rage for the basic finite emotion, it had a beginning and an end. When he would get mad for not reading his mind or in his case "If you loved me you would already have known" was where I became paranoid. The suspense I felt from the unknown would make Steven King tremble, where I valued the time he slept significantly because there was no obligation to read his mind...but he started to notice me jump every time he woke up. It was also damned if I do or damned if I don't. If I tried to do something he complained about the previous day to help him wake up in a more positive mood, he would just focus on anything I hadn't done and complain when I got exhausted or overwhelmed because technically he never told me to do those previous chores so I should have known better. ... it was relentless and panic attacks were daily. But at least when he raged then I at least knew what was on his mind. Honestly, I sometimes gave him permission to hit me or tear me down just so he could get it out before the kids got home from school. ... I didn't notice just how bad it was or how manipulated I was until a year ago when I finally called 911 and they arrested him for DV, child endangerment, resisting arrest and battery on a leo which led to him being tased twice and having to be carried out by 4 officers. I was forced to go no-contact and it ended up giving me the biggest reality check, feeling like I just ran into a brick wall after a high speed chase. I'm still feeling the suspense a year later; I took a restraining out on him 3 months later and filed for divorce a couple of weeks after that...but trying to rewire my brain from the extent of the manipulations is as easy as cleaning a feather after it's been sitting in tar for years. ...
As you age you feel nothing anymore, seen it heard it done it!
Total abandoned & indifference at 80 is their power & successful isolation leading to abject poverty and prison of lonliness.
yes
Rage can be brutal and sometimes a way to torment the victim. I'm in my forties and finnancially dependant on my narcissistic mother, she's a beast, she yells at me when I borrow money to buy food and medicine and there's no way for me to find a job in my country. I hate my life, I'm trapped
Thanks for sharing Dr Ramani.🐨
Their constant covert laser focus and manipulation affect me worse than the indifference
I was so numb to it all. I was groomed to not react outwardly. I just took it. The indifference was confusing. I did not understand. I did not recognize it as indifference. I did recognize being treated as bags of trash and being discarded which of course the narcissist denied. What I did recognize was the rage events. They would go on for 6-8 hours and more. I stopped trying to defend my views in the hope the rage events would shorten. They did not and they were always about the same thing which I was accused of starting. I never asked him to do anything except for a rare gallon of milk. I remember sitting on the sofa wishing I could record the event so I could ask someone if this was normal. I am out now and yet still struggle. Some days more than others. As I said, I was groomed. I would have relinquished Everything. More than I already had. Fortunately, he left for someone he thought was better. She's not. But it gave me time away and with therapy, the ability to really see things as they were. I will get thru it, my therapist says the longer it takes to heal is an indicator of the amt of abuse. Sadly, people who have not experienced it first hand will never understand. And even today, I still have to fight the hoovering And the Euphoric Recall. Ty Dr Ramani for lighting the way to our paths of healing.
Indifferent silence is devastating. Being ignored and not worthy of existing... when you can't see yourself reflected in their eyes anymore. It's like soul murder. Rage makes me tremble and shake, but the silence makes me feel unworthy of existing.
Indifference has made me tremble.
I think the scenario that scares me the most is when I was expected to mind read but didn't. My mother used to make a disappointed huff at me when she told me something she expected me to know but I had never been taught. She would say "You can't, you can't" when the thing I was about to do was legal, moral and ethical. My ex kept ranting at me that I had to put my daughter on my auto insurance without telling me why. In fact, he had had another accident and his premiums would have increased significantly if he had to keep my daughter's accident on his policy. Meanwhile, I was never even told about the accident. Let's keep Mom in the dark and feed her BS!
I go numb when he rages. Now, it's a little scarier, he's getting a little worse, it's all the other stuff
For me, it’s situational and whether or not it’s consequential. I know that one narcissist might actually kill me. Another might fire me. Another, let ‘em stew, even when they display anger, because I don’t need to invest in their anger.
To a point, I see their indifference as a defense mechanism for them. That they cannot possibly have the capacity to think about me, when they’re so busy licking their wounds and playing the victim over what I haven’t even done to them. And, before someone says, “Are you sure you haven’t done anything to them,” usually it has been things like me just getting my share of the estate that they’d decided they’d simply take or not cooperating with coercion. If I’m “doing” something to them, it’s about as passive as possible, because I don’t want to engage with them, because I don’t see myself as being in a relationship with them, even if we were formerly related.
He used RAGE to control all of us, all the time. 😞
Definitely, the indifference. This is for me an umbrella term that includes the emotional neglect, the invalidation, the refusal to hear you out let alone LISTEN when you try to explain how you feel, or the feeling of being transparent until you are useful for something. Like many others have said, although the rage is demoralizing and frustrating, at least it is a moment of attention. Mine was a Drama King who thrived on drama and constant pity partying.
Gosh. Forme it’s indifference. This community has been a shining light for me. So sorry that you’ve experienced the abuse. I think it’s crazy that this personality disorder isn’t more widely known. Why do good people have to live the experience? We warn people about smoking and drinking and obesity. Not one warning about narcissistic disorders.
Neither is good, but the rage definitely was worse for me. The latter was so intense and so frequent, I almost wished she were indifferent.
Over focus. My mother is too enmeshed and calls it love and concern. Then I get the silent treatment which sucks, too. She's covert, so there's no yelling. She resorts to guilt and shame to manipulate me into behaving the way she wants. And once she is done criticizing me, belittling me, telling me how I treat her badly, she feels better. She even admits it when she's through. I have all the texts.
Indifference definitely. Habitually Dismissing anything and everything I say😢
I thought the rage but then it’s the being nice, friendly know he’s planning o doing or setting ups scenario to get at me! It’s can really rattle me
The rage was terrifying
As the invisible/mascot I am so much more comfortable with the indifference but both often just comes down to not really being seen which always hurts.
Indifference is by far the worst for me. It causes more sorrow to build up, which ends up increasing my rage, which can have no ‘reasonable’ outlet. It comes out in dreams of a narc raging at me, invalidating me and treating me with contempt, which feeds my rage. Their rage doesn’t bother me that much. I can face that down. Although withdrawal and silence are also rage.
They’re indifference definitely affect me more long-term than the intermittent rage because they were always indifferent
“Give into their version of events” ouch, too true…..
I think it depends on where you are in/out of the relationship with the narcissist. Indifference hurts most when you're still holding on to hope. The indifference to the children's emotions still triggers me, but now that I 'see' him for what he is, the explosive anger makes me so anxious and disgusted, I came to welcome the silent treatment.
My ex's favorite narcissistic torture technique was to simultaneously snub me and any accountability for his behavior, while talking out loud to himself constantly, singing to music on his headphones or yelling at the TV. Infuriating and hard not to respond to.
I struggled with the indifference for years! Then I learned I’m dealing with a narc.
Yellow is so lovely on you, Dr. Ramani 💛
I've been trying to think many things through. The subhuman narcissist actions can clearly be seen. And despite the damage and pain that they inflicted, in so many ways. I also have experienced how difficult it has been for me to change my own habits. The narcissists are the way they are for reasons. So am I. And somehow I expected that somehow they would change. That I could teach a pig to sing. Pigs that see no reason to learn. And maybe I thought the pigs would somehow see the light and use good polite table manners. My own change has been difficult, often painful. And I've thought pigs who believe they were getting what they want would see the light. Even the flying monkeys refuse to change. It's just not going to happen. And the pain and damage that has caused humanity so much destruction continues .
Indifference. Nothing more hurtful that when both your parents pretend you don't exist.
Mine is covert, so there's hardly ever audible raging. The silent, hateful 'raging' is terrifying and assaulting. The indifference internally incenses and insults me.
The opposite of love is not hate, it’s indifference. Elie Wiesel, a Holocaust survivor and Nobel prize-winning peace activist.
Oh boy the silent treatments! It was an eye opener learning about how narcs use it. Had no idea what was going on for years.
Depends on the person. But I fear the rage, because they care about self image.
But indifference is great because if you can match that, it in turn will scare them.
It depends on the narcissist which hurts me more. My ex and my sister try to punish me by ignoring me and treating me like I don't matter. My mother could hurt me more by by raging at me and condemning me.
The silent treatment was worse for me. Ex would yell and then gaslight into "I'm not yelling because I can be louder." I ended up recording every conversation we had, because I was doubting my memory and intention of my words after with the amount of twisting. So the yelling let me reflect that nope, I'm not crazy. Whereas silent treatment made me wonder if I even said the words outloud.
Both if we talking about parents.
Rage ripping us immediately and is visible
Indifference leaving "black hole" that is hard to fill up even in our grown up time
SHe cycled prob 6x thru anger. rage, friendship, gaslighting over a 30 minute drive - that broke thru my gray rock. As we got out of the car she said "Well, at least we are friends".
My younger daughter was indifferent to me and found ways to avoid me, my older daughter was the screaming Rager person, and wanted me to do everything for her. I think they were equally harmful.
Both Christmas and our first child's birthday have passed without a word from him. On one hand, both days were peaceful and lovely not having to deal with him, but it hurts like hell that he's sending the very clear message that he does not care. It's an interesting emotion to navigate.
I didn’t realize how much the indifference triggers me (and then the variety of ways it is displayed )when I encounter it with other people it triggers, big time -It was the source of the family and relatives means of rage incredibly hurtful, and hits the soul.
Their indifference and inability to even see the other side of the story and the fact that I literally had to catch him telling me the most obvious bold face lies on more than one occasion about his whereabouts. Just the lie itself was an instant betrayal and hurt me the most amongst other behaviors with his need to spend money on things he clearly can’t afford causing me to almost lose my savings, taking on job roles for superiority but not to be a team player but just for power of that role but transfers positions/ locations often, finding out about the dating site he had under an different names and the multiple phones, laptops, and Apple Watches he keeps with him and the level of stalking behavior after blocking and moving away and just moving on. It’s insane!
I ended up loving the free time…. Then it just returned and took up the 24 hours of my space yet again
I also really need to hear this right now cause I miss my ex like mad currently. It’s been a year no contact and I need to keep it that way. I need to remember why we will never work.
Definitely over focus and anger.
Then indifference is so hard. He never had much rage. I did. The detachment. The emotional unavailability was sooooo hurtful
All those childhood triggers. He was exactly the same as my mother
No contact with them both. Healing and recovery and growth happens daily
The indifference, the silent treatment, the withdrawal, and withholding. Found out his mother had cancer from his kids. He never told me directly but openly discussed it with friends and other people. Oh, and we went through the rage phase. I became indifferent.
When my ex friend found a boyfriend, I decided to react to it, the same way she reacted to me getting a boyfriend: «I am so happy for you. love is great. All the best xxx» she was shocked! She expected the drop everything and devote the next days to this topic! As I always had done for her. But I was in therapy and I did not care. Thank you, you changed my life❤