I think you're right. It's been interesting watching this topic blow up. From a gamer side, I can say that we're tired of being treated like cash cows. There's a reason that people are excited for a complete game with no micro transactions, no store attached, no drm and no always online component...you know, like the old days. I hope the corporations listen.
I honestly just love seeing a party based CRPG be a mainstream hit again. We'll hopefully see publishers a little more willing to greenlight more games in this genre.
THIS. As a Gen X gamer im just happy that we have any narrative other than "PC gaming is dead" when we know the doomsayers have been wrong every decade...thanks to Steam/GoG and quality games like BG3 its strong as ever.
@@NovacificationSeems pretty unlikely, since I think Microsoft will probably keep a very tight hold on the IP, and Swen Vincke has said that he has no intention of being acquired. Now, a Fallout-inspired game, on the other hand...
@@YoreHistory"PC gaming is dead", along with "Single-player is dead" have been disproven so many times by now that you can immediately discount the opinions of anyone who still believes them.
i think the main problem we have is: there are big companies (much larger than larian) with much bigger budget and yet they produce grey sludge. we don't demand all games to be bg3, we want games made with passion, like they used to be. there is nothing shutting close my wallet as fast as words like "live service, micro transaction, battlepass..."
@@alex-uw4mmand then they complain about it. it's literally the fault of the customers. just look at call or duty, lol. everyone cries and complains about each and every game, but they buy the next game day one, full price. and then they cry and complain about it again. you can't claim that the majority of people don't like a certain thing when the only reason that thing still exists is because the majority of people are still supporting it. i agree, it sucks, and it needs to change, but people aren't actually doing anything to force that change. who knows. maybe the next cod will flop!
@@erxsOr even more timely, look at Destiny 2. Just a week ago - and for the last few months at least - the D2 community was in an absolute uproar over things like monetization, dripfed seasonal content, the state of PvP being in a grave. Today Bungie puts out a pretty trailer with some hype presentation afterward, and everyone's immediately all on board again, rushing to those $100 preorders. And this time next year, it'll be the same story all over again. Just like it was last year, and the year before that, and the year before that.
@@MarkDarrah From statements from their CEO it looks like that should be a safe bet for the next 10 years. After that when he starts getting to that age where he wants to retire... well let's just hope he finds a good buyer for what he has built.
This tracks with Jason Schreier's recent article. A lot of dev studios are trapped inside corporate structures that do not prioritize end user experience. Larian as a private and independent entity are outside of those incentive structures and able to focus on consumer experience as the primary driver of their dev process.
@MarkDarrah fortunately, with the runaway success of BG3, they have no reason not to. They've proven to themselves that an extended Early Access done right is a very good thing.
@@OneTrueNobody what I'm also seeing in some of the replies here, as well as the discourse in general, is also that people can't really distinguish (1) factually, who said what, (2) individual developers from publishers, and (3) they have little to no historical knowledge of how these types of games get made. IE, the original thread on twitter did not come from a AAA dev, it came from Xalavier Nelson Jr., who is distinctly not a AAA developer. Further, it's factually true that this game is anomalous because of just how much could have gone wrong at *any* step that would have sank it. Hypothetical question: What exactly would have happened if WOTC/Hasbro had applied contractual and financial pressure to force Larian to push the game out in 2020/2021 rather than allow them the years of additional dev time the pandemic necessitated? We don't need to wonder about that, because we know for a fact that aggressive rightsholders doing exactly that utterly butchered KOTOR 2 and Neverwinter Nights 2. Some of them were even the same rightsholders! What exactly would have happened if they'd gone up to WOTC/Hasbro and asked for their early access strategy, and WOTC/Hasbro had said, "no"? This is, near as I can tell, all actual developers themselves were saying: they were factually pointing out that so many things had to go right in order for this game to be made at all. And honestly, that in and of itself tells us a lot about what's wrong with AAA development: it's not that devs aren't talented, or passionate, or hardworking, it's that they just plain can't actually use any of that effectively in most circumstances. What's anomalous about BG3 is, put simply, developers were allowed to make and sell a game. Devs pointing that out isn't them being jealous or petty, it's them pointing out just how messed up the industry really is, as plainly as they can without their taskmasters cutting their pay even further.
but hey, none of that matters, let's get angry and run with the idea of "AAA devs want to destroy BG3 so you dont' know what a good game looks like" narrative, that'll really help players and devs, right?
Thank you for being the first person I've seen to point out how Gamers and Devs are just screaming past each other on this one. Also for your insights and thoughts. Great video.
While publishers are in smoke-filled rooms counting the money gamers keep giving them to keep making devs maintain the status quo of the gaming industry....
Dude, we are typing text, it doesn't make sound. Did you hear Mark scream in his video? I didn't! It's already an overused topic and it's a waste of time, I'm typing as quickly as possible on my keyboard. Whatever you are typing or saying, it will not change anything on how many players are enjoying the game and how many of them are not going to buy a future game with a battle pass, or painful microtransaction. You don't have a clue because you don't control people. Just like Xalavier trying to control gamers, but he cannot. He cannot stop me or any others gamers saying This is a new standard. If I'm wrong or right have nothing to do with it.
This is the best explanation regarding this whole discourse that I've seen and I hope a lot of people see this because it feels to me like it's absolutely necessary to understand what Mark says.
Out of all the videos I've watched on this topic, this is the most sensible one that finally explains what is either side actually saying. I was already tired of seeing everyone jump onto a pointless hate bandwagon and miss the glaringly obvious point of the discussion seemingly on purpose just for clicks when your video restored my faith in content creators. Thank you so much.
I met Mr. Mark Darrah back in 2009 in London during Dragon Age Origins Release Party in person. Being a massive Baldur's Gate fan since the late 90s it was a dream come true to meet these guys. I still have his business card he gave me back then ... Thank you once again Mr. Darrah for the games. You are the real hero of Baldur's Gate.
Great video. Thanks for sharing your perspective. It does sound like it would have been better for devs to just let Larian have this one. Keep the constraints talk within the company as it's never going to come across well to consumers. Consumers just want good games and if your companies corporate structure does not allow it, that is only going to make consumers even angrier as opposed to being sympathetic.
@@MarkDarrah respectfully, when you say “game devs are saying you aren’t going to see this spread immediately across the industry as a whole,” that’s not what the takeaway from the corporate pearl-clutching seems to be. They made deliberate statements regarding the standard of quality not being realistic on the basis of time and money, of which AAA titles most certainly have. It’s not a matter of if they CAN do it but one of if they will, and they’ve been found lacking for years. Edit: ALSO, that’s not a rip on devs directly. That’s very much to do with the constraints placed on them, but it’s also not a defense.
I have unfollowed so many talking heads on the internet about this topic, because so many of them turn it into cheap click-bait. It's nice to have a former dev clear the air a bit, so thank you. I will say that, to one of your points, I do feel like the "Soulslike" genre has represented a massive sea change in game design since the advent of From Software's games. Even when a game may have been developed without the intent to duplicate the 'Souls' formula of design, so many *players* use those games as a benchmark, they will often describe games in how they compare to a Demon's Souls or similar game. I remember when the Jedi: Fallen Order game reviews hit, I kept hearing "Soulslike" and "Sonic Adventure" as the two main comparisons, over and over. With that in mind, I really do hope more games will look at the enthusiasm players have for games where they can make choices to alter the course of the narrative in ways both big and small, and consider that in their game concepts going forward.
Oh thank you for this. This is exactly what I think but so much better articulated. I've been so frustrated by everybody discoursing but no one listening to the other side. And the game news websites haven't helped at all. It's nice to hear a balanced take.
I really love your channel, such an interesting, informed and articulate take. This might be a strange take, but I'm not sure I want every RPG to massively reshape my expectations, though ambition is obviously nice. What I really want from, say, BioWare, is just a commitment to what they're good at. Which is to say, I don't need a Dragon Age game to massively outdo its previous entry, I just want: some fun companions, good romance, a good central plot, and serviceable combat/gameplay. It's actually one of the (I'm sure completely unfair) frustrations I've had with Dragon Age. From the outside, it seems like there's been all these attempts to introduce very large changes in the structure with the 4th game, which doesn't seem to have aided in the game development, and also doesn't align with the very simple things I want from the series. I'd be totally happy with Dragon Age being something that progressed only very incrementally in terms of game design if it meant more releases. But this almost certainly misses the realities of its development, which I'm sure has a lot to do with the unavoidable chaos of creating any game. Still, y'know, I really enjoy JRPG's, and sometimes, I just want a really "generic" JRPG to play. Because, y'know, as much as people call it "generic", it's really not - what other genre gives you that maximalist use of music, anime-like romances, ambitious world-building aimed at wish-fulfilment, bishounen and bishojo designs in an RPG setting, and so on? It's generic in so far as it's a codified genre, but it's also in many ways extremely disparate from a lot of other media experiences (how many Western games in the late 90s would have had it's male main character do a wacky maid outfit quest). So I'm really glad when I have that itch, I can scratch it in all sorts of ways. But my favourite type of game, by a very, very high magnitude, is the Bioware-style RPG, which to me is basically: character creation + romance + somewhat linear plot. And there's really not that many of those to play, so quite often when I have the itch it's like, damn, better play DA:I for the 12th time. Which, isn't surprising, considering these games seem absurdly expensive and time intensive to make, expecting a Baldur's Gate III or a DA:Origins every few years seems completely unreasonable. But that's one of many reasons why I'd love a few more Dragon Age II's (maybe not made in a year tho - that seemed stressful).
Loving BG3, things I'd like to see the industry take from it: A focus on interactive/branching narrative writing and actor performances, a desire to immerse with presentation but not necessarily overwhelm, and more sexy wizards and sassy vampires! Obviously I'd also love it if the big companies saw it and started releasing more games in finished states, rather than all these unfinished live servicey titles, but I doubt that's ever going away, and lord knows microtransactions are here to stay, so I'd rather root for the things I loved about the game (and am still loving in subsequent playthroughs) that seem more achieveable, though hoping for good writing is often a fool's hope lol. As for the online discourse, I tend to stay away from big internet topics like these; I find it too easy to get lost in each side's extremes and too hard to have actual talks about the points in question, your line about the groups talking past eachother is well said and sums that up pretty well I think! Ooh, side note, another thing I think I'd love to see taken from BG3 is more big games being unafraid to have complicated or just straight up different/original game mechanics. Not every game needs to copy TargetLock-strafe-soulslike combat! I miss the days when combat in games could be anything, the Witcher 1 is my personal favourite of the Witcher games in part because of its unique take on combat mechanics.
@@MarkDarrah the new Yakuza/Like a Dragon games are turn based, and Persona 5 was hugely popular with turn based as well. it's just whether other western developers will follow - it seems to be working well in Japan
We don't want it as the standard for RPGs we want it to be the standard of gaming. A passion project that they basically worked with the community to build
Thanks for this. So often these days, people treat outrage as currency. I tend to not trust folks who realize that and whose motives for being "angry" about what have you lead to angry gamer rants on yt. You always have nicely reasoned videos. I think a lot of times, a game or a studio or a dev becomes the current darling for whatever reason and instead of just saying, " I like this thing" it becomes "why isn't everything like this thing" and "everything that isn't this thing is bad" and it's so frustrating to me.
Baldur’s Gate 3 is an excellent game that charges the entrance fee up front and doesn’t ruin the gameplay experience by nickel-and-diming you throughout your entire playthrough. It drives engagement by being fun to play and encouraging exploration and replayability, rather than making you do grindy tasks to progress (or, worse yet, mistaking grind for replayability). It benefits from the deep lore and fleshed out class system of DND without being too niche (I have never played DND, but enough of this stuff has been in cRPGs over the years that it’s not too jarring). It’s not like other studios can’t accomplish this-many have over the years. Most have simply decided they don’t want to.
Many studios can't, because they are driven by the needs of the business and the needs of the business do not match the financial model offered by BG3. Larien has a very unique story, working their way up to being big enough to self-fund a project of this size. We *might* see more like it, but every time anyone says "vote with your wallet" a few million people go out and buy the supposedly "bad" games anyway. And indie studios simply don't have the funding to tackle a project like this. If they do get funding, it will have strings attached (a situation Laren themselves have been in many times in the past).
@@MarkDarrah I'm certainly going to check out Larian's other games when I'm done with BG3! Happy to vote with the pocketbook. This game has been a reminder for me personally about what games can be, especially compared to what I've been playing over the past few years. Even recent games like Hogwarts Legacy that I thought were excellent incorporate a bunch of time-wasting collection mechanics and a largely unnecessary open world for the sake of...who knows, actually? Hopefully we see more of this consumer-friendly design and pricing structure in the future; it will be a huge relief if so.
BG3 is my dream RPG in that choices I make matter, and are reflected in the story and the characters. If I had to sum up one thing that sets the bar high, for me, it is that. I loved Horizon Zero Dawn, and replayed it a couple of times, but hated that on subsequent replays it was clear that dialogue choices didn't matter at all. To experience a game that does that properly (even if it isn't perfect and has its own limitations) really is something I'll compare all other RPGs to, simply because it is what I want from an RPG. I'm so happy Larian has put that out there so that other games and devs can decide if they want to make that a priority too. For a long time now it has been open worlds with a facade of seeming choices and side quests that are fundamentally scripted in only one way. I want to see this area of RPGs really expanded upon. It doesn't mean it is for every game, for every studio, but it would be great where appropriate. I'd rather shift budget and time there than some other places. The fact that NPCs are all voiced and motion capped really adds to the experience also. I'd hold these things as so important for RPGs that yes, I want BG3 to be a new standard in some ways. Importantly though, it does not have to be for every game. It depends on the genre and goals of the game.
base game is great, base game with co-op or 4 man adventure is magic. Add replayability with frequent hotfixes and patches, added mod support and defintive edition coming in the near future, its GOTY
Honestly I find it baffling how many people seem utterly unable to see the OBVIOUS systemic causes of the toxic shit in games. “Lazy Developers” is such a dumb take. Capitalist incentives and suits are the problem, they’ve always been the problem, it’s beyond frustrating that people can’t fathom this shit.
I've been playing BG3 since early EA; what really was wonderful was the response from the studio on bug fixes and questions. I felt heard, and bug issues were solved. It is a good production🎉
I was really hoping you'd talk about the "discourse" here. I've honestly had kind of a rough time with BG3 because I inadvertently stumbled on the one path Larian doesn't seem to have expected people to go for right out of the bat, but Larian has definitely crossed the threshold into AAA with it. I don't really expect it to change a lot, at least short term, though. There are only a handful of AAA studios with the experience and know-how to even approach CRPGs in this way, and most of them have a sort of "house style" that won't necessarily benefit from some of the things Larian's done here. And not to mention, games of this magnitude also take years of work and experience, so there's going to just naturally be a time lag with how much devs like Bethesda and Bioware can learn from it. As a player I'm not expecting a ton of BG3's influence to show up in Dreadwolf, for example (assuming it's coming out sometime within the next 1-2 years, at least-maybe it's farther off, I don't know!) but there's probably time for the next Mass Effect to learn quite a bit I think the smaller CRPG studios will probably be fine, thankfully, though. Much of BG3's CRPG complexity comes from reactivity in the world and the environment, and less so from the sort of crunchy, math-heavy side of things since 5e is generally a less crunchy system than say, 3e/Pathfinder, so crunchier games is still a niche for AA studios to work with, as one example
I think most intelligent games such as you and I understand two things 1) most gamers don't expect the same standards from smaller game CRPG studios but much larger studios just look at the complaints about Diabo4. 2) We don't blame the Devs for the state of the industry as a whole, it's the corporations who decide. If the Devs were to come out and comment about how good BG3 is that their jobs would be in jeopardy, or some are just doing damage control for the company.
@@MarkDarrah For me the best example is DAI. inspiration from skyrim didn't really do the game any good in my opinion. A. You musst look can we implement this? B. Have we the time and resources to do so? C. Is it good for the game? I hope that no one get forced to implement anything from BG3.
I think the majority of gamers don't necessarily differentiate between "developer" and publisher/owner. We know more casual players tend to not know the difference, but even for those of us who do, this distinction doesn't matter. Previously independent studio sold themselves to a publisher that then forced garbage on them? Sounds like the people in charge felt it was worth it for whatever reason. I guess it's a bit different from studios that were created under a publisher to begin with.
Only in America, do companies think putting out a product which exceeds expectations for the customer is a BAD thing (because it might raise the standard 🙄🙄🙄)
I do get where some of the indie devs are comming from, but that quickly got lost in the weeds when devs from the AAA space thought it was a good idea to jump in.@@MarkDarrah
@@MarkDarrah Let's get real, it's the management serving out the edicts. The developers themselves aren't allowed to have an opinion that hasn't been approved by awful CEO's i.e. Bobby Kotick.
Larian took the natural, organic, growth going. They evolved with each project and became more mature, closer to what they originally wanted to be. It's the same course as many of our favorite studios from the past. Unfortunately, the biznezz cuts into the evolution process and halts all innovation locking everyone into their shitty financial traps. Devs on the golden carrot and gamers forced to put their wallets on drip mode just to play a game should be on the same team but the REAL players (ie Blackrock) force us all to suffer and attack the wrong parties.
Thanks, I think this is one of the first videos I've seen on this subject that talks about the situation in a way that isn't about developers versus players. I'm a bit in both boxes, since I've been working as a narrative designer for 2 year, but I also have a background as a big rpg player. I'm glad that Larian has had so much support from players, I'm just a bit dismayed that this debacle started even before the whole game was released, because now a lot of people have finished the game, and like Divinity 2 before it, we're starting to realize that a lot of the promised things have been cut. (such as the high city, and certain companion endings). I'm not worried about that, what was poor quality will be forgotten, the rest that was well-made but probably removed because there was no time to polish or test it, will undoubtedly be in a definitive edition. My final point is that Larian has accomplished something monumental, but I'd like gamers to think of them as any other game studio, that each has their flaws and qualities.
I have been on the BG3 since the release of early access, so several years. I've played it off and on during the development. (I'd check in after a few patches try out the new stuff and offer feedback.) And that is what I'd like to see more studios take away from BG3 and how Larian became basically partnered with the gamers during development. Larian was very receptive to feedback and nudged the game in different directions. Did I always like the changes no, but that doesn't matter because the bulk of people did. You will never get a game that is 100% to your liking....at least until the AI Overlords come. Even then Larian I think did great job to customize your experience so you could get something close to what you wanted while still accommodating many others. So if their is one things I'd say devs should take from BG3 is: the people you want to spend money on your game are the people you should partner with. Their impute can be invaluable, and should be considered. Most (level-headed) gamers know you aren't going to please them 100%, but if you are making an effort to meet them half way on delivering a enjoyable experience they will cut you slack. Also cut the marketing BS, be strait with your audience...We can do this (and actually do it) We can't do this...and here is our reason why (And don't lie).
I have to say I was really impressed by Larian's early access. As someone who worked on several early access games before, I can only imagine how much discipline and planning went into doing it right and I honestly hope that we can all learn from that. It was a very good strategy to only add whole, very finished (beta state) chunks of content during early access and then testing and gathering feedback. It meant that almost never were players given something that would later be taken away, which would almost certainly alienate the core fanbase.
This discussion also came from how game industry shifted over the course of several decades. Players have fond memories of how the games used to be - no transactions, complete at launch, expansions with tons of new gameplay etc. What they demand is just wishing the games be the same way it used to be. Larian did just that, it was actually nothing new. And apparently the game industry has shifted to a more commercial side, the cake is divided into more parts that a small chunk is in fact working towards the favor of their actual customer (the players). Nowadays, making a game means having to stike a balance between the shareholders/investors and the players, which is where all the "weird choices" in a game come from. (The cake is a lie...)
@@MarkDarrahTrue, I guess as a player demanding it to not the game devs (who are already working hard enough to make games) but let the voice heard by the investors and shareholders.
@@sayurioffenborn4960 That will not working towards anyone's favor, and will also neglecting the effort the game devs have put into making games. For investors, let them know money is earned by investing the business model that benefits the players like Mark said in the video.
You’ve made the point multiple times about the benefits of doing sequels with the same engine and I didn’t realize that’s what Larian did. Very cool to see your point proven on a massive scale!
I'm so glad that finally someone made a game dev stance on the issue coherent. I think that many gamers equate being a consumer of games and being knowledgeable in the process of making those games. Regarding the cancelling I think you won't be cancelled per se but someone will definitely make an outrage video. Because rage always generates clicks :D
This is a very manufactured topic though. An single Indie Dev made a 10 post thread on twitter about why Larian's development of BG3 was unique and really used a poor choice of wording in the first tweet, and at this point a bunch of people screenshot just that first tweet and used it to claim that "AAA Devs are mad about BG3!!!". In a world with tens of thousands of devs (from AAA to Indie), one or two poorly worded takes that weren't even negative (when you read the entire 10 post thread) represents less than 0.02% of developers. We need to stop taking an opinion held by a very small minority and treat it as the majority.
@@MarkDarrah yes, I agree, and some YT creators are using this to get views. The first video suggested to me after making this comment is an all caps "AAA DEVELOPERS GO NUCLEAR ON BG3" which is beyond silly. They are getting way more views perpetually this fake story than they'd get without it, so they are incentivized to keep it going. I imagine some people are going to build their entire channel around this like some did over the WotC OGL debacle from last winter, so they just won't let this false narrative die, and there are enough angry gamers that will give them the views.
Online discourse is really exhausting. Topics get sensationalized and people follow without actually know the full context/information. I'm guilty of falling for it sometimes.
@@Drstrange3000 it's by design unfortunately. A thousand people can agree on a point, but when one person disagrees, people will flock to tell that person why they are wrong, which creates "engagement" (sorry, threw up a bit in my mouth writing that), and then that conversation gets elevated to be the "top" discussion on the topic. And now we all talk about it ignorant to the fact that it all started because 1 person had a bad take.
I think that a lot of people miss the fact that a lot of the things that people find refreshing about BG3 are things that have been happening for years in the indie market. A full experience without exploitative monetization. Deep, systematic gameplay that is player-agency forward. These are staples of indie game dev and there are countless examples of games that meet that standard. What BG3 did was apply an indie approach to the scale of a AAA game. No reasonable person is expecting every indie game to be able to do that. But also, this could help drive people to the niches that Larian is appealing to. I've seen a lot of people talking about how this helped them appreciate the crpg genre. A rising tide lifts all boats.
There are obviously a ton of gamers that just. don't. care. about 'leet graffix'. They want an experience, a story. I don't know if it is true, but it has FELT like the last decade has been companies futzing around with ever more complicated game engines, and tossing the part THIS audience actually cares about out the window, in favor of 'make it LOOK better'.
A great video on how so much of the discourse is just gamers and developers missing what each other are saying. Also you are right on how talking heads need to be quite on this one.
@@MarkDarrah hopefully your video will set it somewhat right. Also I wanted to say I shared the video on the BG3 subreddit. I see a lot of people there fall into the same issues as others online.
"If you're a game dev in AAA, just let Larian have this one." Honestly! Let's remember to celebrate each other's work and praise it for its greatness! We can always use more of that positivity and joy.
Great video, especially calling out the talking heads. I decided to not engage with the discourse early (by choice, since I want to play with as little expectation as to what BG3 "should" be), and I think my initial playthrough will be better for it. But I hope BG3 is remembered for shifting the needle in a generally positive direction, along with Elden Ring and BOTW. Only time will tell! Thanks for cheering on Larian for a job well done! 🎉
I think a lot of people actually are doing just what you're talking about in this case, voting with their money, people want complete games, and don't really want pay to win content. That's absolutely true in my case, I don't really care if a game has the best looking graphics, or the newest tech. If the game is the most fun to play and don't interupt me with a bunch of crap about buying cool things, or even essential things. I don't play those games. In this manner Baldurs gate isn't really a new standard of game.. It's the old standard of game. that's coming back, the game that leaves you alone and have you play the game, at your own pace, in your own time. And don't push you when ever. And looking into other genres.. and indie.. I mean, look at Minecraft, Factorio, Stardew valley. I mean, you don't need to be a huge studio to make great games even nowadays.
Agree, but that doesn't mean that a smaller studio can't create games that crush it in the market. And I haven't seen anyone saying that every new RPG-game needs to be as big as BG3 or as grand. It just needs to be functioning at release. It should be fun to play and let you have a good time. That's the new/old standard.
If you know the path inside the games data structures , basic modding is as simple as placing files in the appdata folder that match the relative paths of the game data. I've already taken advantage of this to remove the narrator which involves replacing thousands of wem files with 0byte empty files (someone else extracted and found the files)
I think nuance and context is disregarded in favor of a simple and punchier narrative especially nowadays with social media and game commentaries. There’s many external factors that go into making a game that the public never hears about until several years after launch. We should strive to be more mindful of this rather than just forcing the narrative that a company sold out
It doesn't matter if it is an "excuse" or a "reason" here. The point is that the gaming space is moving in a negative direction. Even if the devs "want to" do better, they are still compromising their games in favor of (increasingly predatory) monetization. It may come from above them, I don't care. It happens regardless. Something needs to change. If you are a dev being forced to sacrifice your vision for the shareholders, then it it shouldn't be a shock that people are underwhelmed by the end product. We understand the problems may come from above them, but then they say the standard can not be changed, rather than discussing how the actual problem could be solved. Gamers aren't trying to blame a specific person for this, but when devs come out and act like this isn't an issue and is "just the way things are going to be from now on" then that is upsetting. They should be able to clearly see how this type of environment is holding them back. Instead of pushing the blame somewhere else, they should be talking about what the real issues are and how we can strive to correct them. If the developers wont stand up for their creative vision then who will? Why just tell their customers they should accept their compromised work rather than accepting that the current standards are not allowing them to deliver what they would want?
I got so much Brain damage from the whole conversation surrounding this topic especially people leaving facts out and spinning a whole narrative. Glad you made a video. I got so tired from all the people with their headlines or Video titles everywhere.
A finished, top quality, single player game with no microtransactions, and minimal bugs? Those developers are correct... this is not a new standard. This is the old standard and we want it back
I honestly just love seeing VARIETY! I'm so tired of the same ARPG clones. BG3 is amazing and I'm still on my first play-through, planning out my second, and desperately trying to avoid spoilers on UA-cam. lol.
level cap gaming turned me onto your channel and I really appreciate your takes on these subjects. It really refreshing for someone with real experience to talk about these issues rather than some talking head farming hate clicks. It's sad so many of the talking heads just rage baiting its made gaming media so insufferable as of late.
I do think it did some work to tear down some sacred cows that had developed over the last couple of decades. Some of them came from the publishing side, others I definitely saw directly from developers. The developers can continue to have their own opinions here, but I think some of them reacted viscerally to having their sacred cows torn down and reduced to just that, opinions about how they prefer to make games rather than a sacred list of do this and don't do that to make a good game that sells well. The same sort of thing happened with the Elden Ring UX incident where the developer came off as slighted personally that a game with a, to them, less-than UX could still sell and be popular. For years and years we've heard about how your AAA game must have voiced protagonist dialogue, it must if not be an action game at least feel and be paced like an action game, it must have DRM, it must have DLC in order to recoup cost and not have staff layed off afterwards (needs to be verified on Larian's end still I guess), etc. Turning "must" into merely "can" is a good thing unless you were a developer who was personally invested into the belief that "must" really did mean "must". Games can still have voiced protagonist. Games can still be action games. Games can still have DRM and DLC. But, they also can not and still do well. There have been other examples, but BG3 is a pretty big one and the one that got visceral reactions. I think that's when pointing out any external factors starts to feel like excuse making for why any given "must" is actually still a "must" and BG3 doesn't count.
You put it exactly how it is. I have seen a lot of the discourse and yeah, both sides are talking past each other and not truly listening or even having the same conversation. And the people who keep posting the videos putting devs in a bad light are just throwing fuel into the fire for what? Just to make content that will make them money? That's what is truly lazy IMO. You articulated this so well. I wish others would do that same. We really need more nuance in these conversations instead of people always trying to point fingers and start drama.
its frustration that hit the breaking point. there has been a silent war going on between gamers and the gaming industry for quite some time now. I say gaming industry coz it encompasses everything from Devs to the investors i wish you would get this part right. We know its not black and white. We know that for the most part it comes from the top of the coporate ladder. But we also know that at times Devs are most definedly not innocent. We know most tries thier best with what little they get. But i now pose the question to you. If we werent keeping an eye on what they do and if we dont voice our concern frustration and discontent with malpractices in favor of greed. Then what?.
THANK YOU for this contribution to the discourse Mark. Seriously, it is refreshing to see someone dissect this mess of back n forth in ways that clarify how the two groups talk past each other. Much appreciated!
I think AAA as whole needs to be changed. Current definition is 100-150 employees or more. Which is unfair when most corporate studios are using a staff of 1000-2000 employees. With Larian and Fromsoftware at around 400.
Absolutely this. I love the choices of BG3 but it's a massive game that'll take me ages to complete. However, I also like shorter titles that only take 20 to 30 hours and there's a space for that with RPGs as well. I don't expect Dragon Age: Dreadwolf to be as massive as BG3. I don't expect it to have the same scope. I really enjoyed Dragon Age: Exodus even with its reused assets. It was a fun game with choices but it was on a shorter length and I'm glad there are shorter titles like Dragon Age: Exodus. I also agree about Elden Ring. It wasn't anything ground breaking. Yet people were claiming it was something new. It wasn't.
@@MarkDarrah Absolutely and I've watched your video on genre names. At the end of the day, I suspect there will be more people not completing BG3 over those who have. It's hit the gaming Zeitgeist in a way, much like Elden Ring did. It released at the right time (not many releases in August) but also happens to be a top quality game that had a controversial (to some) live pre-release stream that went viral. People took notice and realised there was more to the game than just that scene. It was great marketing.
@@MarkDarrahThat's why I, as a gamer, do not want any game under the RPG banner to "change the sea". I want each studio to stay unique and create a variety of games, some I'll like, but others wont, some I won't care for, but others will.
You aren't being cancelled for these takes. This is the most level-headed, well thought out statement I have heard on all of this. Literally no one should be offended by anything you said here.
I've never played a D&D game or had any interest but BG3 looks like a different breed of game to me. I actually want to buy it and play it even to support the company.
What also bothers me about this is that a lot of it is resentment and frustration at mainline AAA industry practices spilling out from gamers, and talking past devs who they just...villainize, for want of a better word? First off, it's objectively untrue that BG3 launched in a complete state. Most of act 3 is missing, including the entire epilogue. All those 17,000 endings? Yeah you see none of them. They literally all got cut so BG3 could launch a month early to not be swarmed over by Starfield. It also has a number of super archaic features that BioWare fixed yesrs ago, such as indicating which dialogue choices trigger romances. Like its a great game, but its objectively untrue that it's feature complete and if you know what you're looking for, there's a ton of missing stuff. But...well, think about it: Larian are the "good guys" in the narrative right now. Just like CDPR used to be, just like BioWare used to be, just like Bethesda used to be, just like Obsidian used to be, just like Valve used to be. Gamers(TM) only seem to conceive of gaming discourse ad a series of antagonistic comparions--"this company good, not like this bad company." What really stuck this for me was people dogpiling snd harassing Josh Sawyer over pointing all this out snd claiming he's some nobody when...my guys, he helmed Fallout: New Vegas, a game that pretty much spawned its own religion for its plot and reactivity. K think he knows how stuff works. Read through this lens, what devs actually SAY doesn't matter to these folks because to them its just "bad companies scared of good company"
I thnk you're misunderstanding what the 17,000 endings is about. I think Crystal Ding was trying to refer to 17,000 different branching paths that lead to many different endings, rather than 17,000 actual different endings.
@@cmdr.jabozerstorer3968 no, I'm really not. There are 56 minutes straight of narrated epilogue lines that didn't get into the game because it has no epilogue. It simply ends and slams to black. Literally every variation or combinatorial explosion that would lead to that number is somewhere in those cut 56 minutes.
In the final game, there is literally no epilogue. It just ends. The little variations are not a thing you get to see. You get zero info on any of your companions except your love interest, and if it's Karlach, you don't even get that. Because all that closure was literally cut, despite being voiced and recorded. Also, the entire upper city is not a thing you get to explore, despite Larian boasting of exploring it less than two weeks before release. Any way you slice it, that's not finished.
@@135791113ab That's still 17,000 different choices though. You might not have recruited anyone this time around. 1 ending. You may have not romanced anyone this time. 1 ending. You might have worked with the Goblins and Minthara this time. 1 ending. Important character may have died this time. 1 ending. You embraced the Dark Urge - 1 ending You tried to stop yourself from using the Darj Urge - 1 ending They all add up.
@@135791113ab I'm aware of there being no Epilogue but the choices are still there until the end game. The Epilogues will just wrap things up for he player. I suspect the end slides will arrive eventually. They really should be there.
The gaming industry naturally is always reshaping. It's ever evolving. Not just one game will shape future games. Every game will shape the next. Either by a little but or by a lot.
Kinda off topic but can relate to this topic... i think it waa xbox(i could be mistaken) has stated in past they would like to see the extinction of exclusives. But because of exclusives other systems and/or studios strive to emulate and make their own versions of said exclusives which in turn evolves the gaming industry... competition is important as long as you view it as growth and not greed or jealousy...
Really great video Mark, I’m so glad you decided to make a channel and have your voice heard. You are such a huge part of good games for my generation and it’s invaluable to have you speak your mind here.
The problem is, from a paying customers perspective, it really doesn’t matter whose fault it is, at the end of the day we are still expected to shell out 70 bucks for unfinished and broken games that constantly shove mtx and battle passes in our faces.
Totally agree with you Mark. Got cancelled ;) This is a triple AAA studio. The amount of absolute morons calling Obsidian a AAA studio while Larian are an indie game with double the studio size? People just have no idea how project management and development work. Turns out having opinions on twitter doesn't make you a game dev.
Good thoughts Mark! Its wise to listen and want to work together for sure. I am just happy that this studio will be making more games like this, last game that checked the boxes was dragon age inquisition. Its hard because there's not much transparency sometimes as I would like, for example even though I liked cyberpunk 2077 at launch its romance and character depth wasn't what I expect or desired. So when larian went into early access I saw them in every patch be transparent, it was legit the best early access experience I've ever had and they delivered! wow!
Anyone who says game developers are lazy clearly has never looked into how insane they are. No rational person who values their sanity would work as a game developer. The only reason any one would be a game developer is because they care and try so much.
Very good video describing how this whole situation has played out. I'm enjoying BG3 a lot and looking forward to a lot of RPGS coming out Starfield, Clockwork Revolution, Avowed, Dreadwolf, the next Mass Effect, VTMB, a lot seems to be happening in this genre at the moment.
I'm not so optimistic about it. I'm personally looking forward to Starfield. That's gonna be my game to play for the next ten years😅. If Bethesda will not paywall all modding that is. And Rough Trader from Owlcat Studio. They are still independent as far as I know. Whatever Larian will do next - I will buy it. Avowed looks too generic so far, just some distant concept of a game. VTMB2 used to be the game I dreamt of until they kicked Brian Mitsoda out of the project. It was his project to begin with. He was really passionate about making this game. So now I'm not sure it will be released at all. As for Bioware, their latest games made me give up on them. It's not what I want from rpg games, not even close. And no amount of beautiful trailers will make me forget the disappointment.
I think Larian's openness and honesty about the process of putting this game out has a lot to do with players' response to other developers urging we curb our enthusiasm. For Swen Vincke to come out and say, "Hey guys, we are waiting to release because we dont want to burn out our employees," or one of the many other prolific things him and the team mentioned during development gave the players an honest idea of what was going on behind the scenes. I dont think it would be EASY for other game devs to outright say, "Hey! The executives want a season pass so deal with it," but perhaps being more forward and trusting of their player base during development could lead to the same sort of revelry most have for BG3 and Larian studios.
You say that this is Larian's "final form" but unfortunately it isn't, is it? The final form of almost every AAA studio is to be bought by one of the huge public corporations and become a cog in their machine. This will very likely happen to Larian someday. We need more success stories like BG3 to show those corporations what development teams can achieve if they would just stay out of their way.
look, there is NO doubt, Larian has done a phenomenal job and Larian is very good at what they do. I like what Larian does. And, Larian did ALL this with NO micro transactions. Good for them. I look forward to see what Larian works on next.
Wow! I agree with and support every single thing you have said in this video. It is annoying to see the one sided takes from the both sides of this situation. Thank you for expressing your thoughts (which I mirror) and the reality of the situation this eloquently.
Thank you for the calm discussion on this. You succinctly explained both sets of overlapping player and developer conversations occurring around the release and expectations with BG3. I appreciate the insight from someone who was heavily involved with the original BG titles and DA. I can definitely empathize with wanting to re-examine who you spend time watching/following as a result of some of the “piling on” mentality by some of my favorite creators. You have done a good job at contextualizing why it’s not a Game Devs vs Players argument. Both groups seem to want the best out of the games that ship, but the considerations that impact quality, completeness, and monetization in the AAA space seem often to be outside the development studio’s hands. I hope you are right about other Indie Devs not being edged out in this space. Currently playing Solasta by Tactical Adventures, and enjoying it immensely as a more streamlined entry in the genre. It is obviously a work by a similarly passionate, but much smaller, team. It would be great if the success of BG3 led to less buggy, artificially monetized, and subdivided experiences being more likely in the future. I’m sure developers, would be thrilled to work towards that goal without so many impositions or constraints from their larger organizations or publishing partners. Hopefully those larger organizations can take a look at BG3 and start to listen.
People often forget that not only was bg3 an iterative process with years of early access open to the public, but their previous game basically did all the things bg3 is being lauded for now back in the day already
The developers can talk all they want. This is a matter of supply and demand. If the players stop buying nicely looking games that claim they are RPG game, when fact they only have a points upgrading system- the developers will stop producing such games. Companies will respond to the market. We should expect an early release, a long testing period and a game that actually works on release. Bg1 and BG2 where staples of the ganre. Bg3 is on its way as well. The players have spoken.
@@MarkDarrah True. We should only buy the games that are actual quality for money. Then they will produce quality. If we continue buying games as a service...they will continue making them.
@@MarkDarrah True. We should only buy the games that are actual quality for money. Then they will produce quality. If we continue buying games as a service...they will continue making them.
Regardles if devs can not deliver games we want becuase of contraints placed on them by company, or their own poor decisions and designs... We, as customers dont care what the reason is, we want good product.
I love this video. Its nice to see a reasonable response to something that seems to have become sensationalized within the gaming press. On another note. I feel like BG3 is a worthy successor to the previous much loved entries in the Baldur's Gate series.
@@MarkDarrah The funny part is I found Astarion because I was looking for Fenris fan video content and that’s how I found and became a fan of BG3. UA-cam has thankfully been able to let me see almost everything since I wasn’t able to purchase and play it yet.
Great video, I think you nailed it, especially the part of gamers and devs talking past each other. I feel like some devs ARE giving a bunch of excuses, especially when people who work at companies like Ubisoft talk about Larian as if they are some 4A gamedev or something, when Larian is a much smaller studio with much less money and people etc. compared to Ubisoft. And don't get me started on IP power. The only reason Ubisoft makes money is because they own some of the most popular IPs in the industry, much more popular and relevant than Baldurs Gate. But what I don't understand is why they are saying these things, because the real difference between Larian and other studios is that it's in essence an indie studio, while most AAA studios if not all of them are companies owned by execs who overwork devs and treat like shit, while caring only about their bottom line and writing themselves 30 million dollar bonuses. Devs have nothing to do with the current state of the industry, it's the execs who own these companies who prioritize marketing and monetization instead of making an actually good, interesting game. I guess in the end they are right, we shouldn't expect good games to become a standard in the industry, because no way will Ubisoft or BioWare will suddenly go private with people who actually care about making good games in charge. Let's hope the indie space will keep growing and we will see more AAA indie devs.
You hit the nail on the head perfectly, I 100% was echoing the same sentiment (that developers and audiences were having different conversations) and people wouldnt believe me for some reason lmao
I think the important takeaway from Elden Ring and BG3 is that they don't feel compromised in terms of combat and mechanics. Story, choices and romance stuff is all very subjective and not really the bulk of what you do in an rpg. You play these two games and you feel like they've stuck to their guns, and not gone for some market researched, generic 3rd person action combat just because that's what the spreadsheet says to do. You can die in seconds in ER, fights in BG3 can go on for hours. Neither of those things are unique to those games, but they're done to a level of pure fun and freedom, alongside fantastic presentation, encounter design and story. What they're not is generic.
I personnaly hope that it's the lesson that will be learned (but I'm afraid it won't). Do your own stuff as best as you can do and realize your unique vision as much as can be. Imagining a sea of Elden Rings clones makes me shudder.
I love this take. I think you said in one of your earlier videos that getting all the team on board with your vision is one of the most important things. I believe that when a team comes together to make an experience that they are passionate about, they make something special. I feel sorry for studios that get their game experience changed to fit what a publisher thinks will be easier to sell or to be forced to ship early.
Going to say this as hearsay... Quite the commentary from an old guard Baldur's Gate dev, to the most recent torch. That is sure to explode and parrot on genuine magic.
I'm guessing as to the exact tricks Larian is using. But it is a VERY educated guess...
I think you're right. It's been interesting watching this topic blow up. From a gamer side, I can say that we're tired of being treated like cash cows. There's a reason that people are excited for a complete game with no micro transactions, no store attached, no drm and no always online component...you know, like the old days. I hope the corporations listen.
I think we are seeing MTX (and even DLC) dying off in single player.
Maybe
@@MarkDarrah from your lips to Ubisoft's ears.
I honestly just love seeing a party based CRPG be a mainstream hit again. We'll hopefully see publishers a little more willing to greenlight more games in this genre.
Its amazing. Clearly Larian is also suprised to some degree.
I hope we get an old school Fallout game from them!
THIS. As a Gen X gamer im just happy that we have any narrative other than "PC gaming is dead" when we know the doomsayers have been wrong every decade...thanks to Steam/GoG and quality games like BG3 its strong as ever.
@@NovacificationSeems pretty unlikely, since I think Microsoft will probably keep a very tight hold on the IP, and Swen Vincke has said that he has no intention of being acquired.
Now, a Fallout-inspired game, on the other hand...
@@YoreHistory"PC gaming is dead", along with "Single-player is dead" have been disproven so many times by now that you can immediately discount the opinions of anyone who still believes them.
i think the main problem we have is: there are big companies (much larger than larian) with much bigger budget and yet they produce grey sludge. we don't demand all games to be bg3, we want games made with passion, like they used to be. there is nothing shutting close my wallet as fast as words like "live service, micro transaction, battlepass..."
Demand the business model you want to see
@@MarkDarrah sadly too many pay that extra money... gaming as a whole is not united at all... if it was, EA sports would be bancrupt
@@alex-uw4mmand then they complain about it. it's literally the fault of the customers. just look at call or duty, lol. everyone cries and complains about each and every game, but they buy the next game day one, full price. and then they cry and complain about it again. you can't claim that the majority of people don't like a certain thing when the only reason that thing still exists is because the majority of people are still supporting it.
i agree, it sucks, and it needs to change, but people aren't actually doing anything to force that change. who knows. maybe the next cod will flop!
@@MarkDarrah ...right, which is why there are a lot of people agitating to make this business model the standard again.
@@erxsOr even more timely, look at Destiny 2. Just a week ago - and for the last few months at least - the D2 community was in an absolute uproar over things like monetization, dripfed seasonal content, the state of PvP being in a grave. Today Bungie puts out a pretty trailer with some hype presentation afterward, and everyone's immediately all on board again, rushing to those $100 preorders.
And this time next year, it'll be the same story all over again. Just like it was last year, and the year before that, and the year before that.
I'm so happy for Larian. It took 20 years longer than I wanted, but now we have a big successful RPG studio that is not beholden to a publisher.
I hope they maintain their independence
@@MarkDarrah From statements from their CEO it looks like that should be a safe bet for the next 10 years. After that when he starts getting to that age where he wants to retire... well let's just hope he finds a good buyer for what he has built.
20 years?? Huh??
@@JustArcher19 From BG2 to BG3 took 20y to continue it's legacy.
@@jarrodbright5231hope he lives a long live
This tracks with Jason Schreier's recent article. A lot of dev studios are trapped inside corporate structures that do not prioritize end user experience. Larian as a private and independent entity are outside of those incentive structures and able to focus on consumer experience as the primary driver of their dev process.
I hope they stay independent
@MarkDarrah fortunately, with the runaway success of BG3, they have no reason not to. They've proven to themselves that an extended Early Access done right is a very good thing.
This sums it up very well, Mark. There is a narrative spinning away from the reality here.
That's modern discourse, where everything needs to be a big ol' clickbait headline or no one even notices that you said anything.
@@OneTrueNobody what I'm also seeing in some of the replies here, as well as the discourse in general, is also that people can't really distinguish (1) factually, who said what, (2) individual developers from publishers, and (3) they have little to no historical knowledge of how these types of games get made.
IE, the original thread on twitter did not come from a AAA dev, it came from Xalavier Nelson Jr., who is distinctly not a AAA developer. Further, it's factually true that this game is anomalous because of just how much could have gone wrong at *any* step that would have sank it.
Hypothetical question: What exactly would have happened if WOTC/Hasbro had applied contractual and financial pressure to force Larian to push the game out in 2020/2021 rather than allow them the years of additional dev time the pandemic necessitated? We don't need to wonder about that, because we know for a fact that aggressive rightsholders doing exactly that utterly butchered KOTOR 2 and Neverwinter Nights 2. Some of them were even the same rightsholders!
What exactly would have happened if they'd gone up to WOTC/Hasbro and asked for their early access strategy, and WOTC/Hasbro had said, "no"?
This is, near as I can tell, all actual developers themselves were saying: they were factually pointing out that so many things had to go right in order for this game to be made at all. And honestly, that in and of itself tells us a lot about what's wrong with AAA development: it's not that devs aren't talented, or passionate, or hardworking, it's that they just plain can't actually use any of that effectively in most circumstances. What's anomalous about BG3 is, put simply, developers were allowed to make and sell a game. Devs pointing that out isn't them being jealous or petty, it's them pointing out just how messed up the industry really is, as plainly as they can without their taskmasters cutting their pay even further.
but hey, none of that matters, let's get angry and run with the idea of "AAA devs want to destroy BG3 so you dont' know what a good game looks like" narrative, that'll really help players and devs, right?
Unfortunately.
@@135791113ab I've not encountered that narrative. Who are you quoting?
Thank you for being the first person I've seen to point out how Gamers and Devs are just screaming past each other on this one. Also for your insights and thoughts. Great video.
It is sad, unfortunately
While publishers are in smoke-filled rooms counting the money gamers keep giving them to keep making devs maintain the status quo of the gaming industry....
Dude, we are typing text, it doesn't make sound. Did you hear Mark scream in his video? I didn't! It's already an overused topic and it's a waste of time, I'm typing as quickly as possible on my keyboard. Whatever you are typing or saying, it will not change anything on how many players are enjoying the game and how many of them are not going to buy a future game with a battle pass, or painful microtransaction. You don't have a clue because you don't control people. Just like Xalavier trying to control gamers, but he cannot. He cannot stop me or any others gamers saying This is a new standard. If I'm wrong or right have nothing to do with it.
This is the best explanation regarding this whole discourse that I've seen and I hope a lot of people see this because it feels to me like it's absolutely necessary to understand what Mark says.
Hopefully it helps
@@MarkDarrah It will bring most needed understanding. If both sides see this.
Out of all the videos I've watched on this topic, this is the most sensible one that finally explains what is either side actually saying. I was already tired of seeing everyone jump onto a pointless hate bandwagon and miss the glaringly obvious point of the discussion seemingly on purpose just for clicks when your video restored my faith in content creators. Thank you so much.
Glad to help
Baldur's Gate 3 has given me more joy and happiness than any game in recent memory. I adore the game. My GOTY
RPG of the year for sure. GotY probably.
I met Mr. Mark Darrah back in 2009 in London during Dragon Age Origins Release Party in person. Being a massive Baldur's Gate fan since the late 90s it was a dream come true to meet these guys. I still have his business card he gave me back then ... Thank you once again Mr. Darrah for the games. You are the real hero of Baldur's Gate.
Was that at the Warden’s Quest event?
Yes sir. @@MarkDarrah
Great video. Thanks for sharing your perspective. It does sound like it would have been better for devs to just let Larian have this one. Keep the constraints talk within the company as it's never going to come across well to consumers. Consumers just want good games and if your companies corporate structure does not allow it, that is only going to make consumers even angrier as opposed to being sympathetic.
Absolutely.
There's usually little to be gained in most circles in explaining why awesome thing 1 isn't easily replicated.
@@MarkDarrah respectfully, when you say “game devs are saying you aren’t going to see this spread immediately across the industry as a whole,” that’s not what the takeaway from the corporate pearl-clutching seems to be. They made deliberate statements regarding the standard of quality not being realistic on the basis of time and money, of which AAA titles most certainly have. It’s not a matter of if they CAN do it but one of if they will, and they’ve been found lacking for years.
Edit: ALSO, that’s not a rip on devs directly. That’s very much to do with the constraints placed on them, but it’s also not a defense.
Major studios have been coasting for years, now they've been called out and it's fantastic.
Nah
I have unfollowed so many talking heads on the internet about this topic, because so many of them turn it into cheap click-bait. It's nice to have a former dev clear the air a bit, so thank you.
I will say that, to one of your points, I do feel like the "Soulslike" genre has represented a massive sea change in game design since the advent of From Software's games. Even when a game may have been developed without the intent to duplicate the 'Souls' formula of design, so many *players* use those games as a benchmark, they will often describe games in how they compare to a Demon's Souls or similar game. I remember when the Jedi: Fallen Order game reviews hit, I kept hearing "Soulslike" and "Sonic Adventure" as the two main comparisons, over and over.
With that in mind, I really do hope more games will look at the enthusiasm players have for games where they can make choices to alter the course of the narrative in ways both big and small, and consider that in their game concepts going forward.
Mark isn't a former Dev. I think he's semi-retired. He's been helping out on Dragon Age: Dreadwolf.
Former / Current
Well put. I supose its hard to say they didn't change the industry when they have a genre named after them...
Oh thank you for this. This is exactly what I think but so much better articulated. I've been so frustrated by everybody discoursing but no one listening to the other side. And the game news websites haven't helped at all. It's nice to hear a balanced take.
It is 2 different points talking past each other
I really love your channel, such an interesting, informed and articulate take.
This might be a strange take, but I'm not sure I want every RPG to massively reshape my expectations, though ambition is obviously nice. What I really want from, say, BioWare, is just a commitment to what they're good at. Which is to say, I don't need a Dragon Age game to massively outdo its previous entry, I just want: some fun companions, good romance, a good central plot, and serviceable combat/gameplay. It's actually one of the (I'm sure completely unfair) frustrations I've had with Dragon Age. From the outside, it seems like there's been all these attempts to introduce very large changes in the structure with the 4th game, which doesn't seem to have aided in the game development, and also doesn't align with the very simple things I want from the series. I'd be totally happy with Dragon Age being something that progressed only very incrementally in terms of game design if it meant more releases. But this almost certainly misses the realities of its development, which I'm sure has a lot to do with the unavoidable chaos of creating any game.
Still, y'know, I really enjoy JRPG's, and sometimes, I just want a really "generic" JRPG to play. Because, y'know, as much as people call it "generic", it's really not - what other genre gives you that maximalist use of music, anime-like romances, ambitious world-building aimed at wish-fulfilment, bishounen and bishojo designs in an RPG setting, and so on? It's generic in so far as it's a codified genre, but it's also in many ways extremely disparate from a lot of other media experiences (how many Western games in the late 90s would have had it's male main character do a wacky maid outfit quest). So I'm really glad when I have that itch, I can scratch it in all sorts of ways. But my favourite type of game, by a very, very high magnitude, is the Bioware-style RPG, which to me is basically: character creation + romance + somewhat linear plot. And there's really not that many of those to play, so quite often when I have the itch it's like, damn, better play DA:I for the 12th time. Which, isn't surprising, considering these games seem absurdly expensive and time intensive to make, expecting a Baldur's Gate III or a DA:Origins every few years seems completely unreasonable. But that's one of many reasons why I'd love a few more Dragon Age II's (maybe not made in a year tho - that seemed stressful).
I completely get this take.
I don't want every piece of media to reshape the landscape.
nuclear war will settle the argument appropriately. 14:26 bloopers
likely
Loving BG3, things I'd like to see the industry take from it: A focus on interactive/branching narrative writing and actor performances, a desire to immerse with presentation but not necessarily overwhelm, and more sexy wizards and sassy vampires!
Obviously I'd also love it if the big companies saw it and started releasing more games in finished states, rather than all these unfinished live servicey titles, but I doubt that's ever going away, and lord knows microtransactions are here to stay, so I'd rather root for the things I loved about the game (and am still loving in subsequent playthroughs) that seem more achieveable, though hoping for good writing is often a fool's hope lol.
As for the online discourse, I tend to stay away from big internet topics like these; I find it too easy to get lost in each side's extremes and too hard to have actual talks about the points in question, your line about the groups talking past eachother is well said and sums that up pretty well I think!
Ooh, side note, another thing I think I'd love to see taken from BG3 is more big games being unafraid to have complicated or just straight up different/original game mechanics. Not every game needs to copy TargetLock-strafe-soulslike combat!
I miss the days when combat in games could be anything, the Witcher 1 is my personal favourite of the Witcher games in part because of its unique take on combat mechanics.
I curious to see if turnbased will be mainstream without D&D attached
@@MarkDarrah the new Yakuza/Like a Dragon games are turn based, and Persona 5 was hugely popular with turn based as well. it's just whether other western developers will follow - it seems to be working well in Japan
We don't want it as the standard for RPGs we want it to be the standard of gaming. A passion project that they basically worked with the community to build
It is a special game as a result
Thanks for this. So often these days, people treat outrage as currency. I tend to not trust folks who realize that and whose motives for being "angry" about what have you lead to angry gamer rants on yt. You always have nicely reasoned videos. I think a lot of times, a game or a studio or a dev becomes the current darling for whatever reason and instead of just saying, " I like this thing" it becomes "why isn't everything like this thing" and "everything that isn't this thing is bad" and it's so frustrating to me.
indeed
Baldur’s Gate 3 is an excellent game that charges the entrance fee up front and doesn’t ruin the gameplay experience by nickel-and-diming you throughout your entire playthrough. It drives engagement by being fun to play and encouraging exploration and replayability, rather than making you do grindy tasks to progress (or, worse yet, mistaking grind for replayability). It benefits from the deep lore and fleshed out class system of DND without being too niche (I have never played DND, but enough of this stuff has been in cRPGs over the years that it’s not too jarring). It’s not like other studios can’t accomplish this-many have over the years. Most have simply decided they don’t want to.
Demand the business model you want.
I do think DLC (in single player games) may be fading away
Many studios can't, because they are driven by the needs of the business and the needs of the business do not match the financial model offered by BG3.
Larien has a very unique story, working their way up to being big enough to self-fund a project of this size.
We *might* see more like it, but every time anyone says "vote with your wallet" a few million people go out and buy the supposedly "bad" games anyway.
And indie studios simply don't have the funding to tackle a project like this. If they do get funding, it will have strings attached (a situation Laren themselves have been in many times in the past).
@@MarkDarrah I'm certainly going to check out Larian's other games when I'm done with BG3! Happy to vote with the pocketbook. This game has been a reminder for me personally about what games can be, especially compared to what I've been playing over the past few years. Even recent games like Hogwarts Legacy that I thought were excellent incorporate a bunch of time-wasting collection mechanics and a largely unnecessary open world for the sake of...who knows, actually? Hopefully we see more of this consumer-friendly design and pricing structure in the future; it will be a huge relief if so.
BG3 is my dream RPG in that choices I make matter, and are reflected in the story and the characters. If I had to sum up one thing that sets the bar high, for me, it is that. I loved Horizon Zero Dawn, and replayed it a couple of times, but hated that on subsequent replays it was clear that dialogue choices didn't matter at all. To experience a game that does that properly (even if it isn't perfect and has its own limitations) really is something I'll compare all other RPGs to, simply because it is what I want from an RPG. I'm so happy Larian has put that out there so that other games and devs can decide if they want to make that a priority too. For a long time now it has been open worlds with a facade of seeming choices and side quests that are fundamentally scripted in only one way. I want to see this area of RPGs really expanded upon. It doesn't mean it is for every game, for every studio, but it would be great where appropriate. I'd rather shift budget and time there than some other places. The fact that NPCs are all voiced and motion capped really adds to the experience also. I'd hold these things as so important for RPGs that yes, I want BG3 to be a new standard in some ways. Importantly though, it does not have to be for every game. It depends on the genre and goals of the game.
They are definitely spending their money in a very different way.
In a way that I DO miss
base game is great, base game with co-op or 4 man adventure is magic. Add replayability with frequent hotfixes and patches, added mod support and defintive edition coming in the near future, its GOTY
RPG of the year is on lock.
We'll see on GOTY
Honestly I find it baffling how many people seem utterly unable to see the OBVIOUS systemic causes of the toxic shit in games. “Lazy Developers” is such a dumb take. Capitalist incentives and suits are the problem, they’ve always been the problem, it’s beyond frustrating that people can’t fathom this shit.
When the visible faces are the dev ones, that's where the vitriol goes
I've been playing BG3 since early EA; what really was wonderful was the response from the studio on bug fixes and questions. I felt heard, and bug issues were solved. It is a good production🎉
They have a great interaction with players
I was really hoping you'd talk about the "discourse" here. I've honestly had kind of a rough time with BG3 because I inadvertently stumbled on the one path Larian doesn't seem to have expected people to go for right out of the bat, but Larian has definitely crossed the threshold into AAA with it. I don't really expect it to change a lot, at least short term, though. There are only a handful of AAA studios with the experience and know-how to even approach CRPGs in this way, and most of them have a sort of "house style" that won't necessarily benefit from some of the things Larian's done here. And not to mention, games of this magnitude also take years of work and experience, so there's going to just naturally be a time lag with how much devs like Bethesda and Bioware can learn from it. As a player I'm not expecting a ton of BG3's influence to show up in Dreadwolf, for example (assuming it's coming out sometime within the next 1-2 years, at least-maybe it's farther off, I don't know!) but there's probably time for the next Mass Effect to learn quite a bit
I think the smaller CRPG studios will probably be fine, thankfully, though. Much of BG3's CRPG complexity comes from reactivity in the world and the environment, and less so from the sort of crunchy, math-heavy side of things since 5e is generally a less crunchy system than say, 3e/Pathfinder, so crunchier games is still a niche for AA studios to work with, as one example
I think most intelligent games such as you and I understand two things 1) most gamers don't expect the same standards from smaller game CRPG studios but much larger studios just look at the complaints about Diabo4. 2) We don't blame the Devs for the state of the industry as a whole, it's the corporations who decide. If the Devs were to come out and comment about how good BG3 is that their jobs would be in jeopardy, or some are just doing damage control for the company.
I suspect you are right.
@@MarkDarrah For me the best example is DAI. inspiration from skyrim didn't really do the game any good in my opinion.
A. You musst look can we implement this?
B. Have we the time and resources to do so?
C. Is it good for the game?
I hope that no one get forced to implement anything from BG3.
I think the majority of gamers don't necessarily differentiate between "developer" and publisher/owner. We know more casual players tend to not know the difference, but even for those of us who do, this distinction doesn't matter. Previously independent studio sold themselves to a publisher that then forced garbage on them? Sounds like the people in charge felt it was worth it for whatever reason. I guess it's a bit different from studios that were created under a publisher to begin with.
Sure, I get that
Only in America, do companies think putting out a product which exceeds expectations for the customer is a BAD thing
(because it might raise the standard 🙄🙄🙄)
Again, I don't think this is what (MOST) devs are actually saying
I do get where some of the indie devs are comming from, but that quickly got lost in the weeds when devs from the AAA space thought it was a good idea to jump in.@@MarkDarrah
@@MarkDarrah Let's get real, it's the management serving out the edicts. The developers themselves aren't allowed to have an opinion that hasn't been approved by awful CEO's i.e. Bobby Kotick.
Jason Schreier posted something recently about this, regarding Larian's independence due to not being a publicly traded company
Publicly traded companies were probably a mistake.
Larian took the natural, organic, growth going. They evolved with each project and became more mature, closer to what they originally wanted to be. It's the same course as many of our favorite studios from the past. Unfortunately, the biznezz cuts into the evolution process and halts all innovation locking everyone into their shitty financial traps. Devs on the golden carrot and gamers forced to put their wallets on drip mode just to play a game should be on the same team but the REAL players (ie Blackrock) force us all to suffer and attack the wrong parties.
Yes Larian's path is one to be emulated if possible.
I hope they keep their independence
Thanks, I think this is one of the first videos I've seen on this subject that talks about the situation in a way that isn't about developers versus players.
I'm a bit in both boxes, since I've been working as a narrative designer for 2 year, but I also have a background as a big rpg player.
I'm glad that Larian has had so much support from players, I'm just a bit dismayed that this debacle started even before the whole game was released, because now a lot of people have finished the game, and like Divinity 2 before it, we're starting to realize that a lot of the promised things have been cut. (such as the high city, and certain companion endings).
I'm not worried about that, what was poor quality will be forgotten, the rest that was well-made but probably removed because there was no time to polish or test it, will undoubtedly be in a definitive edition.
My final point is that Larian has accomplished something monumental, but I'd like gamers to think of them as any other game studio, that each has their flaws and qualities.
There is a lot to learn from BG3
I have been on the BG3 since the release of early access, so several years. I've played it off and on during the development. (I'd check in after a few patches try out the new stuff and offer feedback.) And that is what I'd like to see more studios take away from BG3 and how Larian became basically partnered with the gamers during development. Larian was very receptive to feedback and nudged the game in different directions. Did I always like the changes no, but that doesn't matter because the bulk of people did. You will never get a game that is 100% to your liking....at least until the AI Overlords come. Even then Larian I think did great job to customize your experience so you could get something close to what you wanted while still accommodating many others. So if their is one things I'd say devs should take from BG3 is: the people you want to spend money on your game are the people you should partner with. Their impute can be invaluable, and should be considered. Most (level-headed) gamers know you aren't going to please them 100%, but if you are making an effort to meet them half way on delivering a enjoyable experience they will cut you slack. Also cut the marketing BS, be strait with your audience...We can do this (and actually do it) We can't do this...and here is our reason why (And don't lie).
Yes I would love to see more "developed out loud" like BG3.
I have to say I was really impressed by Larian's early access. As someone who worked on several early access games before, I can only imagine how much discipline and planning went into doing it right and I honestly hope that we can all learn from that. It was a very good strategy to only add whole, very finished (beta state) chunks of content during early access and then testing and gathering feedback. It meant that almost never were players given something that would later be taken away, which would almost certainly alienate the core fanbase.
very true
Larian is an alternate reality BioWare that somehow passed into our reality.
There is a branch where they become different
This discussion also came from how game industry shifted over the course of several decades.
Players have fond memories of how the games used to be - no transactions, complete at launch, expansions with tons of new gameplay etc. What they demand is just wishing the games be the same way it used to be. Larian did just that, it was actually nothing new.
And apparently the game industry has shifted to a more commercial side, the cake is divided into more parts that a small chunk is in fact working towards the favor of their actual customer (the players). Nowadays, making a game means having to stike a balance between the shareholders/investors and the players, which is where all the "weird choices" in a game come from.
(The cake is a lie...)
For sure, if you prefer the business model of BG3 (and why wouldn't you) demand that
@@MarkDarrahTrue, I guess as a player demanding it to not the game devs (who are already working hard enough to make games) but let the voice heard by the investors and shareholders.
@@echoness_ The best way to demand is simple: don't buy their games. For investors money is importent.
@@sayurioffenborn4960 That will not working towards anyone's favor, and will also neglecting the effort the game devs have put into making games. For investors, let them know money is earned by investing the business model that benefits the players like Mark said in the video.
You’ve made the point multiple times about the benefits of doing sequels with the same engine and I didn’t realize that’s what Larian did. Very cool to see your point proven on a massive scale!
This is an engine they understand
I'm so glad that finally someone made a game dev stance on the issue coherent. I think that many gamers equate being a consumer of games and being knowledgeable in the process of making those games. Regarding the cancelling I think you won't be cancelled per se but someone will definitely make an outrage video. Because rage always generates clicks :D
I'm sure
Great balanced take! Hope to see more amazing CRPGs and complete games in general in the future! Can't wait to see what Larian will do next.
I’m curious to follow them
This is a very manufactured topic though. An single Indie Dev made a 10 post thread on twitter about why Larian's development of BG3 was unique and really used a poor choice of wording in the first tweet, and at this point a bunch of people screenshot just that first tweet and used it to claim that "AAA Devs are mad about BG3!!!". In a world with tens of thousands of devs (from AAA to Indie), one or two poorly worded takes that weren't even negative (when you read the entire 10 post thread) represents less than 0.02% of developers. We need to stop taking an opinion held by a very small minority and treat it as the majority.
Agreed. But beyond a point the discourse is self reinforcing
@@MarkDarrah yes, I agree, and some YT creators are using this to get views. The first video suggested to me after making this comment is an all caps "AAA DEVELOPERS GO NUCLEAR ON BG3" which is beyond silly. They are getting way more views perpetually this fake story than they'd get without it, so they are incentivized to keep it going.
I imagine some people are going to build their entire channel around this like some did over the WotC OGL debacle from last winter, so they just won't let this false narrative die, and there are enough angry gamers that will give them the views.
Online discourse is really exhausting. Topics get sensationalized and people follow without actually know the full context/information. I'm guilty of falling for it sometimes.
@@Drstrange3000 it's by design unfortunately. A thousand people can agree on a point, but when one person disagrees, people will flock to tell that person why they are wrong, which creates "engagement" (sorry, threw up a bit in my mouth writing that), and then that conversation gets elevated to be the "top" discussion on the topic. And now we all talk about it ignorant to the fact that it all started because 1 person had a bad take.
I think that a lot of people miss the fact that a lot of the things that people find refreshing about BG3 are things that have been happening for years in the indie market. A full experience without exploitative monetization. Deep, systematic gameplay that is player-agency forward. These are staples of indie game dev and there are countless examples of games that meet that standard. What BG3 did was apply an indie approach to the scale of a AAA game. No reasonable person is expecting every indie game to be able to do that. But also, this could help drive people to the niches that Larian is appealing to. I've seen a lot of people talking about how this helped them appreciate the crpg genre. A rising tide lifts all boats.
Yes absolutely.
Indie attitude, AAA scale
There are obviously a ton of gamers that just. don't. care. about 'leet graffix'. They want an experience, a story. I don't know if it is true, but it has FELT like the last decade has been companies futzing around with ever more complicated game engines, and tossing the part THIS audience actually cares about out the window, in favor of 'make it LOOK better'.
Graphical Fidelity is a death cult
A great video on how so much of the discourse is just gamers and developers missing what each other are saying. Also you are right on how talking heads need to be quite on this one.
It is 2 different conversations running past each other
@@MarkDarrah hopefully your video will set it somewhat right.
Also I wanted to say I shared the video on the BG3 subreddit. I see a lot of people there fall into the same issues as others online.
"If you're a game dev in AAA, just let Larian have this one." Honestly! Let's remember to celebrate each other's work and praise it for its greatness! We can always use more of that positivity and joy.
Yes
Great video. I think this is the best take so far.
Glad you think so!
Great video, especially calling out the talking heads. I decided to not engage with the discourse early (by choice, since I want to play with as little expectation as to what BG3 "should" be), and I think my initial playthrough will be better for it. But I hope BG3 is remembered for shifting the needle in a generally positive direction, along with Elden Ring and BOTW. Only time will tell!
Thanks for cheering on Larian for a job well done! 🎉
The big take aways for me from BG3 so far
Campfires in the Dark (I'll do a video on that some time)
Spend where it matters
Your wisdom and knowledge really shows in how you deal and talk about this topic
Thank you
I think a lot of people actually are doing just what you're talking about in this case, voting with their money, people want complete games, and don't really want pay to win content.
That's absolutely true in my case, I don't really care if a game has the best looking graphics, or the newest tech. If the game is the most fun to play and don't interupt me with a bunch of crap about buying cool things, or even essential things. I don't play those games.
In this manner Baldurs gate isn't really a new standard of game.. It's the old standard of game. that's coming back, the game that leaves you alone and have you play the game, at your own pace, in your own time. And don't push you when ever.
And looking into other genres.. and indie.. I mean, look at Minecraft, Factorio, Stardew valley. I mean, you don't need to be a huge studio to make great games even nowadays.
Some genres have been taken over by AAA budgets and it become hard to carve out a space.
Agree, but that doesn't mean that a smaller studio can't create games that crush it in the market.
And I haven't seen anyone saying that every new RPG-game needs to be as big as BG3 or as grand.
It just needs to be functioning at release. It should be fun to play and let you have a good time.
That's the new/old standard.
It may please you to learn that Baldur's Gate III *does* have an override folder.
WHAT!?
Amazing
If you know the path inside the games data structures , basic modding is as simple as placing files in the appdata folder that match the relative paths of the game data. I've already taken advantage of this to remove the narrator which involves replacing thousands of wem files with 0byte empty files (someone else extracted and found the files)
I think nuance and context is disregarded in favor of a simple and punchier narrative especially nowadays with social media and game commentaries. There’s many external factors that go into making a game that the public never hears about until several years after launch. We should strive to be more mindful of this rather than just forcing the narrative that a company sold out
indeed
It doesn't matter if it is an "excuse" or a "reason" here. The point is that the gaming space is moving in a negative direction. Even if the devs "want to" do better, they are still compromising their games in favor of (increasingly predatory) monetization. It may come from above them, I don't care. It happens regardless. Something needs to change.
If you are a dev being forced to sacrifice your vision for the shareholders, then it it shouldn't be a shock that people are underwhelmed by the end product. We understand the problems may come from above them, but then they say the standard can not be changed, rather than discussing how the actual problem could be solved. Gamers aren't trying to blame a specific person for this, but when devs come out and act like this isn't an issue and is "just the way things are going to be from now on" then that is upsetting. They should be able to clearly see how this type of environment is holding them back. Instead of pushing the blame somewhere else, they should be talking about what the real issues are and how we can strive to correct them. If the developers wont stand up for their creative vision then who will? Why just tell their customers they should accept their compromised work rather than accepting that the current standards are not allowing them to deliver what they would want?
AAA chases the money. Move the pile.
I got so much Brain damage from the whole conversation surrounding this topic especially people leaving facts out and spinning a whole narrative. Glad you made a video. I got so tired from all the people with their headlines or Video titles everywhere.
Thank you
A finished, top quality, single player game with no microtransactions, and minimal bugs?
Those developers are correct... this is not a new standard.
This is the old standard and we want it back
Vote with your $
I honestly just love seeing VARIETY! I'm so tired of the same ARPG clones. BG3 is amazing and I'm still on my first play-through, planning out my second, and desperately trying to avoid spoilers on UA-cam. lol.
Yes I love a new addition (or readdition) to acceptable mainstream genre
level cap gaming turned me onto your channel and I really appreciate your takes on these subjects. It really refreshing for someone with real experience to talk about these issues rather than some talking head farming hate clicks. It's sad so many of the talking heads just rage baiting its made gaming media so insufferable as of late.
Gotta get those clicks I guess
I do think it did some work to tear down some sacred cows that had developed over the last couple of decades. Some of them came from the publishing side, others I definitely saw directly from developers. The developers can continue to have their own opinions here, but I think some of them reacted viscerally to having their sacred cows torn down and reduced to just that, opinions about how they prefer to make games rather than a sacred list of do this and don't do that to make a good game that sells well. The same sort of thing happened with the Elden Ring UX incident where the developer came off as slighted personally that a game with a, to them, less-than UX could still sell and be popular.
For years and years we've heard about how your AAA game must have voiced protagonist dialogue, it must if not be an action game at least feel and be paced like an action game, it must have DRM, it must have DLC in order to recoup cost and not have staff layed off afterwards (needs to be verified on Larian's end still I guess), etc. Turning "must" into merely "can" is a good thing unless you were a developer who was personally invested into the belief that "must" really did mean "must". Games can still have voiced protagonist. Games can still be action games. Games can still have DRM and DLC. But, they also can not and still do well. There have been other examples, but BG3 is a pretty big one and the one that got visceral reactions.
I think that's when pointing out any external factors starts to feel like excuse making for why any given "must" is actually still a "must" and BG3 doesn't count.
Yes chalenging some of these assumptions is great
You put it exactly how it is. I have seen a lot of the discourse and yeah, both sides are talking past each other and not truly listening or even having the same conversation. And the people who keep posting the videos putting devs in a bad light are just throwing fuel into the fire for what? Just to make content that will make them money? That's what is truly lazy IMO. You articulated this so well. I wish others would do that same. We really need more nuance in these conversations instead of people always trying to point fingers and start drama.
Though I suppose I am guilty of wading in too...
its frustration that hit the breaking point. there has been a silent war going on between gamers and the gaming industry for quite some time now. I say gaming industry coz it encompasses everything from Devs to the investors i wish you would get this part right. We know its not black and white. We know that for the most part it comes from the top of the coporate ladder. But we also know that at times Devs are most definedly not innocent. We know most tries thier best with what little they get. But i now pose the question to you. If we werent keeping an eye on what they do and if we dont voice our concern frustration and discontent with malpractices in favor of greed. Then what?.
THANK YOU for this contribution to the discourse Mark. Seriously, it is refreshing to see someone dissect this mess of back n forth in ways that clarify how the two groups talk past each other. Much appreciated!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I think AAA as whole needs to be changed. Current definition is 100-150 employees or more. Which is unfair when most corporate studios are using a staff of 1000-2000 employees. With Larian and Fromsoftware at around 400.
>1000 is still atypical in AAA (though not unheard of)
Great video. Really appreciate hearing you perspective on these issues.
Thanks for watching!
Absolutely this.
I love the choices of BG3 but it's a massive game that'll take me ages to complete. However, I also like shorter titles that only take 20 to 30 hours and there's a space for that with RPGs as well. I don't expect Dragon Age: Dreadwolf to be as massive as BG3. I don't expect it to have the same scope. I really enjoyed Dragon Age: Exodus even with its reused assets. It was a fun game with choices but it was on a shorter length and I'm glad there are shorter titles like Dragon Age: Exodus.
I also agree about Elden Ring. It wasn't anything ground breaking. Yet people were claiming it was something new. It wasn't.
RPG is a very broad genre
@@MarkDarrah Absolutely and I've watched your video on genre names.
At the end of the day, I suspect there will be more people not completing BG3 over those who have.
It's hit the gaming Zeitgeist in a way, much like Elden Ring did. It released at the right time (not many releases in August) but also happens to be a top quality game that had a controversial (to some) live pre-release stream that went viral. People took notice and realised there was more to the game than just that scene.
It was great marketing.
@@MarkDarrahThat's why I, as a gamer, do not want any game under the RPG banner to "change the sea". I want each studio to stay unique and create a variety of games, some I'll like, but others wont, some I won't care for, but others will.
You aren't being cancelled for these takes. This is the most level-headed, well thought out statement I have heard on all of this.
Literally no one should be offended by anything you said here.
And yet...
I've never played a D&D game or had any interest but BG3 looks like a different breed of game to me. I actually want to buy it and play it even to support the company.
It is different from anything mainstream ATM
Video games are an art, and as an art, we push it as far as we can, with the means we have.
Sure
What also bothers me about this is that a lot of it is resentment and frustration at mainline AAA industry practices spilling out from gamers, and talking past devs who they just...villainize, for want of a better word?
First off, it's objectively untrue that BG3 launched in a complete state. Most of act 3 is missing, including the entire epilogue. All those 17,000 endings? Yeah you see none of them. They literally all got cut so BG3 could launch a month early to not be swarmed over by Starfield. It also has a number of super archaic features that BioWare fixed yesrs ago, such as indicating which dialogue choices trigger romances. Like its a great game, but its objectively untrue that it's feature complete and if you know what you're looking for, there's a ton of missing stuff.
But...well, think about it: Larian are the "good guys" in the narrative right now. Just like CDPR used to be, just like BioWare used to be, just like Bethesda used to be, just like Obsidian used to be, just like Valve used to be. Gamers(TM) only seem to conceive of gaming discourse ad a series of antagonistic comparions--"this company good, not like this bad company."
What really stuck this for me was people dogpiling snd harassing Josh Sawyer over pointing all this out snd claiming he's some nobody when...my guys, he helmed Fallout: New Vegas, a game that pretty much spawned its own religion for its plot and reactivity. K think he knows how stuff works.
Read through this lens, what devs actually SAY doesn't matter to these folks because to them its just "bad companies scared of good company"
I thnk you're misunderstanding what the 17,000 endings is about. I think Crystal Ding was trying to refer to 17,000 different branching paths that lead to many different endings, rather than 17,000 actual different endings.
@@cmdr.jabozerstorer3968 no, I'm really not. There are 56 minutes straight of narrated epilogue lines that didn't get into the game because it has no epilogue. It simply ends and slams to black. Literally every variation or combinatorial explosion that would lead to that number is somewhere in those cut 56 minutes.
In the final game, there is literally no epilogue. It just ends. The little variations are not a thing you get to see. You get zero info on any of your companions except your love interest, and if it's Karlach, you don't even get that. Because all that closure was literally cut, despite being voiced and recorded.
Also, the entire upper city is not a thing you get to explore, despite Larian boasting of exploring it less than two weeks before release. Any way you slice it, that's not finished.
@@135791113ab That's still 17,000 different choices though.
You might not have recruited anyone this time around. 1 ending.
You may have not romanced anyone this time. 1 ending.
You might have worked with the Goblins and Minthara this time. 1 ending.
Important character may have died this time. 1 ending.
You embraced the Dark Urge - 1 ending
You tried to stop yourself from using the Darj Urge - 1 ending
They all add up.
@@135791113ab I'm aware of there being no Epilogue but the choices are still there until the end game. The Epilogues will just wrap things up for he player.
I suspect the end slides will arrive eventually. They really should be there.
The gaming industry naturally is always reshaping. It's ever evolving. Not just one game will shape future games. Every game will shape the next. Either by a little but or by a lot.
well said
Kinda off topic but can relate to this topic... i think it waa xbox(i could be mistaken) has stated in past they would like to see the extinction of exclusives. But because of exclusives other systems and/or studios strive to emulate and make their own versions of said exclusives which in turn evolves the gaming industry... competition is important as long as you view it as growth and not greed or jealousy...
Really great video Mark, I’m so glad you decided to make a channel and have your voice heard. You are such a huge part of good games for my generation and it’s invaluable to have you speak your mind here.
Welcome aboard!
i want the industry to adopt the density of reactivity, or whatever dev magic they used to make it feel so reactive
Its really clever (or at least what I THINK they are doing is)
The problem is, from a paying customers perspective, it really doesn’t matter whose fault it is, at the end of the day we are still expected to shell out 70 bucks for unfinished and broken games that constantly shove mtx and battle passes in our faces.
I just made a comment similar to this. Totally agree, I do not care about the internal issues - I'm the customer!
Demand the games you want. With your dollars
Larian Studios is the Bioware that didn't fail all its persuasion, perception and wisdom throws 15 years ago.
They have built very carefully.
Totally agree with you Mark. Got cancelled ;) This is a triple AAA studio. The amount of absolute morons calling Obsidian a AAA studio while Larian are an indie game with double the studio size? People just have no idea how project management and development work. Turns out having opinions on twitter doesn't make you a game dev.
Wait, it doesn’t?
i hope game industry learns that more scenes and good narrative are more fun than polished technical aspects
Visual fidelity is a death cult
Good thoughts Mark! Its wise to listen and want to work together for sure. I am just happy that this studio will be making more games like this, last game that checked the boxes was dragon age inquisition. Its hard because there's not much transparency sometimes as I would like, for example even though I liked cyberpunk 2077 at launch its romance and character depth wasn't what I expect or desired. So when larian went into early access I saw them in every patch be transparent, it was legit the best early access experience I've ever had and they delivered! wow!
I love their path through early access.
Anyone who says game developers are lazy clearly has never looked into how insane they are. No rational person who values their sanity would work as a game developer. The only reason any one would be a game developer is because they care and try so much.
There are easier ways to make $
@@MarkDarrah sadly.
Gosh, I miss the games you used to make at Bioware, Mark. I think that's why I like Baldur's Gate 3 so much.
It does evoke the past
Very good video describing how this whole situation has played out. I'm enjoying BG3 a lot and looking forward to a lot of RPGS coming out Starfield, Clockwork Revolution, Avowed, Dreadwolf, the next Mass Effect, VTMB, a lot seems to be happening in this genre at the moment.
This is an amazing year for RPGs
I'm not so optimistic about it. I'm personally looking forward to Starfield. That's gonna be my game to play for the next ten years😅. If Bethesda will not paywall all modding that is. And Rough Trader from Owlcat Studio. They are still independent as far as I know. Whatever Larian will do next - I will buy it.
Avowed looks too generic so far, just some distant concept of a game. VTMB2 used to be the game I dreamt of until they kicked Brian Mitsoda out of the project. It was his project to begin with. He was really passionate about making this game. So now I'm not sure it will be released at all. As for Bioware, their latest games made me give up on them. It's not what I want from rpg games, not even close. And no amount of beautiful trailers will make me forget the disappointment.
I think Larian's openness and honesty about the process of putting this game out has a lot to do with players' response to other developers urging we curb our enthusiasm. For Swen Vincke to come out and say, "Hey guys, we are waiting to release because we dont want to burn out our employees," or one of the many other prolific things him and the team mentioned during development gave the players an honest idea of what was going on behind the scenes. I dont think it would be EASY for other game devs to outright say, "Hey! The executives want a season pass so deal with it," but perhaps being more forward and trusting of their player base during development could lead to the same sort of revelry most have for BG3 and Larian studios.
Oh yes. The relationship with the players is amazing
You say that this is Larian's "final form" but unfortunately it isn't, is it? The final form of almost every AAA studio is to be bought by one of the huge public corporations and become a cog in their machine. This will very likely happen to Larian someday. We need more success stories like BG3 to show those corporations what development teams can achieve if they would just stay out of their way.
Unfortunately too accurate
look, there is NO doubt, Larian has done a phenomenal job and Larian is very good at what they do. I like what Larian does. And, Larian did ALL this with NO micro transactions. Good for them. I look forward to see what Larian works on next.
Me too
I think they raised the bar.
well they moved it. We'll see the lasting impact
Wow! I agree with and support every single thing you have said in this video. It is annoying to see the one sided takes from the both sides of this situation. Thank you for expressing your thoughts (which I mirror) and the reality of the situation this eloquently.
Thanks for watching
Thank you for the calm discussion on this. You succinctly explained both sets of overlapping player and developer conversations occurring around the release and expectations with BG3.
I appreciate the insight from someone who was heavily involved with the original BG titles and DA.
I can definitely empathize with wanting to re-examine who you spend time watching/following as a result of some of the “piling on” mentality by some of my favorite creators.
You have done a good job at contextualizing why it’s not a Game Devs vs Players argument. Both groups seem to want the best out of the games that ship, but the considerations that impact quality, completeness, and monetization in the AAA space seem often to be outside the development studio’s hands.
I hope you are right about other Indie Devs not being edged out in this space. Currently playing Solasta by Tactical Adventures, and enjoying it immensely as a more streamlined entry in the genre. It is obviously a work by a similarly passionate, but much smaller, team.
It would be great if the success of BG3 led to less buggy, artificially monetized, and subdivided experiences being more likely in the future. I’m sure developers, would be thrilled to work towards that goal without so many impositions or constraints from their larger organizations or publishing partners. Hopefully those larger organizations can take a look at BG3 and start to listen.
I think indie CRPGs will be ok. But there is risk
glad to hear someone who has a nuanced take about this "controversie".
Hopefully useful
People often forget that not only was bg3 an iterative process with years of early access open to the public, but their previous game basically did all the things bg3 is being lauded for now back in the day already
Yes. And I love it.
THAT'S the lesson to learn
I always appreciate your viewpoint, Mark. You have the experience and knowledge to provide a thoughtful opinion on the subject.
I appreciate that!
Your take is the most sensible one and i wish more people talked about this video instead of some twitter threads that makes the least sense
Oh well
Great video, very well put and I completely agree it’s two parties fighting over different points/complaints .
Glad you enjoyed
The developers can talk all they want.
This is a matter of supply and demand.
If the players stop buying nicely looking games that claim they are RPG game, when fact they only have a points upgrading system- the developers will stop producing such games.
Companies will respond to the market.
We should expect an early release, a long testing period and a game that actually works on release.
Bg1 and BG2 where staples of the ganre.
Bg3 is on its way as well.
The players have spoken.
AAA will follow the money.
@@MarkDarrah
True. We should only buy the games that are actual quality for money.
Then they will produce quality.
If we continue buying games as a service...they will continue making them.
@@MarkDarrah
True. We should only buy the games that are actual quality for money.
Then they will produce quality.
If we continue buying games as a service...they will continue making them.
Regardles if devs can not deliver games we want becuase of contraints placed on them by company, or their own poor decisions and designs... We, as customers dont care what the reason is, we want good product.
Vote with your wallet. Its the only thing that the CSuite can hear
Nice summary. I was on the "game devs are getting lazy and greedy these days" side, but this video has changed my thinking.
Thanks, Mark.
Wow, thanks
I love this video. Its nice to see a reasonable response to something that seems to have become sensationalized within the gaming press.
On another note. I feel like BG3 is a worthy successor to the previous much loved entries in the Baldur's Gate series.
BG3 feels like a game from the series for sure
I’m so happy I got to see so much of the early access and then see it blossom into a full game
Quite a journey I imagine
@@MarkDarrah The funny part is I found Astarion because I was looking for Fenris fan video content and that’s how I found and became a fan of BG3. UA-cam has thankfully been able to let me see almost everything since I wasn’t able to purchase and play it yet.
Great video, I think you nailed it, especially the part of gamers and devs talking past each other. I feel like some devs ARE giving a bunch of excuses, especially when people who work at companies like Ubisoft talk about Larian as if they are some 4A gamedev or something, when Larian is a much smaller studio with much less money and people etc. compared to Ubisoft. And don't get me started on IP power. The only reason Ubisoft makes money is because they own some of the most popular IPs in the industry, much more popular and relevant than Baldurs Gate. But what I don't understand is why they are saying these things, because the real difference between Larian and other studios is that it's in essence an indie studio, while most AAA studios if not all of them are companies owned by execs who overwork devs and treat like shit, while caring only about their bottom line and writing themselves 30 million dollar bonuses. Devs have nothing to do with the current state of the industry, it's the execs who own these companies who prioritize marketing and monetization instead of making an actually good, interesting game. I guess in the end they are right, we shouldn't expect good games to become a standard in the industry, because no way will Ubisoft or BioWare will suddenly go private with people who actually care about making good games in charge. Let's hope the indie space will keep growing and we will see more AAA indie devs.
It can be hard to work in a big company and not be infected by the finance first culture to some degree.
Great and well thought out video, thank you very much
My pleasure!
You hit the nail on the head perfectly, I 100% was echoing the same sentiment (that developers and audiences were having different conversations) and people wouldnt believe me for some reason lmao
There you go
I love your advice for the talking heads. lol. "Maybe, shut your mouth". So perfect!
Cringe
I think the important takeaway from Elden Ring and BG3 is that they don't feel compromised in terms of combat and mechanics. Story, choices and romance stuff is all very subjective and not really the bulk of what you do in an rpg. You play these two games and you feel like they've stuck to their guns, and not gone for some market researched, generic 3rd person action combat just because that's what the spreadsheet says to do. You can die in seconds in ER, fights in BG3 can go on for hours. Neither of those things are unique to those games, but they're done to a level of pure fun and freedom, alongside fantastic presentation, encounter design and story. What they're not is generic.
Yes true. They are what they are
I personnaly hope that it's the lesson that will be learned (but I'm afraid it won't).
Do your own stuff as best as you can do and realize your unique vision as much as can be.
Imagining a sea of Elden Rings clones makes me shudder.
I love this take. I think you said in one of your earlier videos that getting all the team on board with your vision is one of the most important things.
I believe that when a team comes together to make an experience that they are passionate about, they make something special.
I feel sorry for studios that get their game experience changed to fit what a publisher thinks will be easier to sell or to be forced to ship early.
Yes Larian has a clear vision well understood by the team
Going to say this as hearsay...
Quite the commentary from an old guard Baldur's Gate dev, to the most recent torch.
That is sure to explode and parrot on genuine magic.
?
Probably the best take I've seen on this subject so far
Thank you