Classic Who Review: The Two Doctors
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Two Doctors are better than one... right?
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Have you ever heard of the series 6B theory? Basically, the idea is that the time lords nabbed the 2nd doctor before his regeneration and recruited him to deal with a few cases for them as part of his sentence. That would also explain why he looks older as well.
I'm personally not a huge fan of the 6B theory, but it does help explain some of the hole things like this bring up. I can see some version of it working.
I'm fairly sure the beeb actually made that semi-canon.
scaper8 The reality is that Robert Holmes simply got it wrong,and no-one on the production team knew enough of the finer details to correct him. To force it into canon is a natural thing to attempt;but I just find it easier to overlook it.
I wasn't even aware it was physically possible for a doctor who fan to just overlook a continuity error 😂
That Chap Paul After the Moffat era,the continuity error of The Two Doctors is a minor thing :D
I seem to recall that The Two Doctors is where the Season 6B fan theory really gained traction. The idea that, in the gap between the Second Doctor being sentenced and him actually regenerating, the Celestial Intervention Agency plucked him out and used him for covert missions. All the Second Doctor multi Doctor stories are supposed to take place in this period, if I recall correctly. I do like this idea, though obviously it's not officially canon.
I've heard of this theory. It sounds like a fanfiction, or something from a really obscure Big Finish story.
BBC Books and Big Finish are doing/have done stories set in this period
For some reason I've always enjoyed this story. I mean, it's awful. Pretty much everything you said is spot on. But I've always just found something about it that keeps me engaged. It's silly, over-the-top nonsense really, like it's so bad it's good.
I think what keeps me engaged in it, even though it's awful, is really Patrick Troughton and Frazer Hines :P
I agree.
It brilliant!
To St - Yes it is brilliant , I don't even know why I watched this video really it was so predictable that it would get a bad review , I suppose I was hoping it would get a good 1 for a change but nope !!!
100% Agree. I couldn't tell you why I liked this episode (other than 2 and Jamie) but I just do
I’m sorry but I love this. I know if you look at the bigger picture then yes there are A LOT of FAR better doctor who stories, and yes this is nonsensical but for me, it’s just the right amount of batshit insane to be entertaining as hell
George Pearmain Forget the bigger picture this is a great story , I like every Colin Baker story and he's the most underrated Doctor in the Universe !!!
I agree! The stupid crazy stories of the 80s are my favourites! It's something to sit back and just have a blast watching!
This isn't a good story, but for some reason I enjoy this one despite everything that's wrong with it. Probably my favourite television story for 6. File with Paradise Towers under "All the critique of it are correct... But something about it just works for me in a way that I enjoy it despite all of that" (Though that isn't my favourite television story for 7). Honestly most of the bad stories for classic Who goes among that for me.
It's the season 6B theory. Troughton had a tonne of off screen stories right before his regeneration.
Anyway, I love this story! It's ridiculous and dark and when they to interact it's hilarious. Shockeye is genuinely uncomfortable and the sontarons feel like a threat.
This is actually my favorite Colin Baker story. Could have used more Troughton, I can live with the Season 6b theory, was supposed to be the Celestial Intervention Agency that lifted 2nd Doctor out of timestream to perform missions, they were introduced in The Deadly Assasin. At least it doesn't have the typical Sixie/Peri bickering that was all over Season 22. The Sontarans looked worse in The Invasion of Time.
From what I've heard, the writer didn't even want to have Sontarans in the story. He was just going to write an Androgum story, but he was forced him to put the Sontarans in so they could have a name villain in the story.
That makes sense... and it really shows.
@Council of Geeks Yeah, even behind the scenes, this story had problems. This was the final story to have on location shooting (after this, it was all sets, studios, and backlots). Because the androgum are space gourmands, the story originally had a much bigger focus on food. Because of that, this was originally going to be set in New Orleans, the food capital of the world. However, they couldn't get the budget to go to New Orleans so the story was moved to be set and filmed in Seville, Spain.
Also, sadly, this was the final story written by Robert Holmes as he died during production of Trial of a Time Lord (season 23)
You should watch Vengeance on Varos, it's probably my favourite Colin Baker story.
I think the character is called "shockeye" tho it's been a while since I've seen "the 2 drs" so I can't remember for sure if that's his name
yes, something like "shockeye of the quancing grig" ..... maybe the later Doctors are part androgum since they have Northern accents so often?
I just LOVED this.... yes, the plot is non-sensical and it is completely over the top....but, it is soooo bad it is very entertaining. The fun thing is, the actors give the impression they know what they do was crap and non-sensical, but they were just rolling with it and did it with such enthusiasm and joy you just have to give them credit for that (and it is fun to watch). Plus, the DVD audiocommentary was quite good.
Tuigirl X Great Story and big up the classic era
The Two Doctors is a fantastic black comedy with great dialogue and is entertaining throughout. Not bad in the slightest.
The extra features on the Two Doctors DVD are worth checking out if you want to understand what the hell was going on with this story. It also has a lot of really sweet Patrick Troughton moments and pictures and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
I saw this on original broadcast, when I was 9 or 10 (not sure of transmission dates). It was wonedrfully dark and daft. I've still got it on DVD, and I enjoy it to this day. Children's TV was a lot bleaker back in the 80s, with shows like Grange Hill unflinching in its depiction of drug addiction (Zammo Maguire) and death of a teenage schoolboy (Danny Kendall). Moments that stay with a generation of 40-somethings. Frankly, The Two Doctors was just pure escapism after that!
The canon explanation is that the end of 'The War Games' ("Stop! You're making me giddy!") is not the regeneration itself, which I can kind of get behind. In between that (the end) and the beginning of 'Spearhead from Space' (when the 3rd Doctor falls out of the TARDIS), is when 'The Five Doctors' and 'The Two Doctors' take place for the 2nd Doctor. As part of his sentence he had to do a few things for the Time Lords as punishment for essentially meddling. Jamie (SPOILERS FOR 'THE WAR GAMES') had his memories of his travels with the Doctor wiped towards the end. The Doctor requested a companion for his punishment missions, so they plucked Jamie and gave him his memories back since he worked well with 2 and they could put him back where they sent him with his memories wiped again. That's why they're older in 'The Two Doctors' and 'The Five Doctors'. It also explains why the 2nd Doctor knew that Jamie's memories had been wiped in 'The Five Doctors' even though it was in 'The War Games', his last episode. Hope this helps!
Much of the budget was spent on location filming in and near Seville, Spain. This left little money for studio filming and guest cast.
Lizzie LOL. Scrolled down to check for someone making this point before I did. Cheers. Like paying for an expensive holiday and having nothing left for entertainment... 😇
Lizzie I don't know why people complain about the production values on certain classic Who stories , it's not like classic Who had great production values as a whole anyway , but that didn't stop it from being awesome .
However sometimes with Nu-Who I feel they can use special effects as an excuse for poor writing .
The production values are the best the original series has to offer.
@@1greatfinkerofrtimes381 Some stories in Classic Who that had come out years before this story look better than this; Enlightenment, Warriors Gate, Full Circle, City of Death, Spearhead from Space, Web of Fear. So there is really no excuse. Just compare these Sontarons to Linx or Styre. Nu-who doesn't really use its effects as an excuse, they just happen to have better effects most of the time and sometimes poor writing.
If you have a low budget you need to know how to use it. For instance not having what is essentially is 6-parter with this small a cast, not chucking in Sontarons just for the sake of it even if they look awful anyway. Don't spend money going abroad unless the story requires it- City of Death's makes use of Paris, there's the Louvre and the Mona Lisa.
The aliens are called Androgums, an anagram for gourmand
I don't think there was any belief that audiences wouldn't realize Troughton and Hines were 20 years older, but rather that audiences would want to see the two original actors enough to willingly suspend the disbelief that they were supposed to be playing 20 year younger versions of themselves. Attempting to hide the age difference with make-up would only have drawn attention to how much older they looked. Casting new actors would be ill-received by those who knew the original actors. (As for the ones who didn't know the Second Doctor, it wouldn't matter.)
As if nobody noticed Tenannt's aging in Day of the Doctor! As if!
It wasn't the Time Lords, it was the Monk who sent the Doctor to Dastari to distract him. While the Doctor is busy with the Sontarans, the Monk continued his scheme in Big Finish: The Black Hole.
Who Girl Reviews That doesn’t really come to much if the Doctor still thought it was the Time Lords. As long as he doesn’t know it’s the monk his history with the timelords should still be a problem in this setting.
Also as good as they are the canonicy of Big Finish Doctor Who is debateable.
The Second Doctor and Jamie forget the events of this story due to the time differential.
Also, given what Big Finish has produced in just the last couple of years, plugging up all the plot holes and gaps left behind by the TV series, pretty sure its a given its stone hard canon.
Who Girl Reviews That would only count for something if it was his other encounter with them that he forgot not this one. He was terrified of them in The War Games so there’s no justifiable reason he’d up and take a job from them here considering what happened at the end of War Games was precisely what he was afraid they’d do to him if he ever encountered them again.
And as much as I respect what Big Finish does their stories don’t slot into the canon (especially the more recent canon) as well as you seem to think. Thus their canonicy is debatable.
Who Girl Reviews But is Big Finish Canon ???
Yes, following @The night of the Doctor', where he names all his Big Finish companions.
Have you seen vengeance on varos it's probably the best 6th doctor story in my opinion
Paul King I agree
I did rather enjoy that story. I wouldn't call it the best, but definitely one of the good ones. Siv is such an interesting character too, love him.
For TV it is, but not if you count big finish lol
I agree although... Jason Connery really shows it was his first job and that elbow to the stomach to take the gun in the second episode is feeble.
I agree with your girlfreinds existence
Oooh Multi-Doctor story ranking I'm down!
Joshua V. Harding Great idea !!!
@@carealoo744 I'd swap 1 and 3. The three doctors is the original, and still the best! Although having the great ones cameo in day elevated it to second!
I love Troughton and I think Colin is underrated. Jamie is always amazing and Peri is a good companion. They are all in fine form in this story. The rest of the characters are ridiculously bad in this story. The writing is terrible and full of distraught.
Edit: Apparently, it's set after The War games for the second doctors timeline but it still doesn't make any sense.
Wow, my opinions for this story has completely changed. Jesus Christ. Troughton and Colin are pretty poorly written in this story but the scene where they meet is great otherwise. Jamie is just the perfect companion. Peri's relationship to the 6th doctor is still at her early stage. And the 2nd doctor part actually makes sense and I would hope more stories are set in that period.
As a few others stated, many believe this as well as some comics belong to a “Season 6B”, which is some stories that occur after the sentence, but before he could have the regeneration carried out, the Celestial Intervention Agency (CIA) nab the Doctor and have him complete missions that require deniability.
They allow him to collect Jaime again and restore his memories. After a few stories the Time Lord council finds the Doctor, traps him, and forces the sentence to be carried out. His memory is also wiped regarding his time helping the CIA, so it appears to him he ended up on Earth just after his sentence.
This is a great story, it has Patrick Troughton,Frazer Hines,great guest acting by John Stratton ; it has literature, vim and gusto. It marks the origin of the Series 6b theory. It was not much liked by Eric Saward and Robert Homes was somewhat frustrated by having to change the location ,or so I read. Too bad -I love it.
Originally this was going to be a 4 part story on food and animal rights set in New Orleans. But they just kept adding stuff to it, the sontarans, a longer running time, a complete change in location because of a low budget and the new 45 minute episode structure. This is my Doctor Who guilty pleasure and it does have some good elements but it's a mess. On the plus side it gave us season 6B.
According to some stories The Two Doctor’s takes place between the Doctor’s trial and his regeneration. Basically he ends up working for Time Lord CIA and has extra adventures before the Time Lords finally punished him and sent him to Earth. The Five Doctors also takes place during this time I think and Jamie is there because the Doctor asked the Time Lords to bring him back to help him.
Easily the best story of Colin Baker's first season, which should come as no surprise given it's a Robert Holmes script.
Not quite Holmes's best, though. The best stories in that season, for me, were Vengeance on Varos (by Philip Martin, a fine screenwriter in his own right) and Revelation of the Daleks (by Eric Saward, a good scriptwriter and disciple of Robert Holmes).
Oh boy, you're in a bad mood today! I remember seeing The Two Doctors when it was first broadcast in 1985, and it stuck in my mind, because the Androgums seemed to be a wicked send-up of meat-eaters, written by a vegetarian. I thought, gosh, this is rather spiky and daring. I was quite impressed.
(Today, I look at the Wikipedia page about the story and find this: "Robert Holmes, a vegetarian, wrote the serial as an allegory about meat-eating, hunting and butchering.")
Because it stuck in my mind, decades later I bought it on DVD, and as far as I remember I quite enjoyed seeing it again. I was never keen on Colin Baker or Nicola Bryant (and you're right, her boobs are an unwelcome distraction), but I definitely enjoyed Patrick Troughton's performance. It was also droll to see Jacqueline Pearce in this, because she was more familiar to British viewers as the principal villain in Blake's 7 (another quite popular sf series).
It's odd that you criticize Troughton and Hines for getting old. People do, you know. And sometimes they get old and return to Doctor Who. Look at Elisabeth Sladen. Look at Peter Davison and Tom Baker, who've both made brief appearances much older than they used to be. Come to that, look at William Hartnell, who manages to make posthumous appearances, thanks to his impersonators!
I can't say that The Two Doctors is a great story overall, but it's a curate's egg: parts of it are worth watching.
He wasn’t criticizing the actors for aging, but that it was never explained in the story. The audience was just supposed to ignore that they looked 20 years older than they did when 2 regenerated. In the other instances, an in-story explanation was offered.
Yes, my comment was a little unfair. But did the audience really need an explanation? The Second Doctor and Jamie looked older because time had passed, for them as for the audience. Everyone in the audience was older, too.
Given that the Doctor is a long-lived time-traveller, he doesn't necessarily look 20 years older after 20 years have passed. However, if you look at him and see that he looks older, you can easily accept that time has indeed passed for him. It might be interesting to know how much time has passed for him and what he's been doing all that time, but it's not something you really need to know for the sake of the story.
Maurine T 5th meeting 10th? What's the in story explanation there?
Ten blames Five's aged appearance on the shorted out Time differential by having two of them together. Their meeting was caused by Ten rebuilding his Tardis while he carelessly left his shields down and the two Tardis' collided in the timestream. It's a very Doctor Who explanation, but there is one provided in the episode.
The problem is that we saw him at the end point. We saw him regenerate. So we know what he looked like at the end of the second incarnation of the Doctor. Yeah, there's all kinds of head canon that could provide explanation, but all of it is fairly involved and nothing was said in the episode. That kind of thing drives me nuts too.
And I would LOVE to see you do a Multi-Doctor story ranking list, please include Time Crash on it!!!
For all its problems (and there are a lot), this is actually my favorite of Colin's televised stories. I can't put my finger on why.
EDIT: Because everyone is talking about it (which is why I'm not going to), I'd love to see your thoughts on the Season 6B theory.
he worked for them after the war games shortly after Jamie was taken then he ran the 5 and 3 doctors happened and he was caught hiding in earth where he was returned to his tardis and forced to regenerate this was shown in prequel CANON comic strips which i read in doctor who the vault.
sure there is Victoria but maybe she came back
"THE TWO DOCTORS" is a GREAT Doctor Who story! NO CONTEST! The Androgums should've been expanded upon, in particular! When Shockeye can eat the entire contents of a Spanish restaurant and consider it "a mere snack" so he can then go and prepare Jamie for his meal, then that tells you something about the insatiable appetites of these voracious, primitive, arrogant alien carnivores! It's no wonder the Doctor balked at Dastari elevating one of them to a mega-genius!
There was also Dimensions in Time, the 30th anniversary. You can skip that. It's essential a crossover with Eastenders. And it's all over the place. Oh and the Rani's in it.
Hey, could you maybe review The enemy of the world next time, I would love to see you review that. ( It also had a cook, and Patrick Troughton plays a double role) If not soon, maybe at some point.
When the English actor started dying, I laughed out loud. First, he BARELY got stabbed. His wound was not deep at all. Second, the episode had put no effort into him at all, but now the entire thing focused on him, as if we were all in deeply love with him. Thirdly, his moment of death is hilarious. He just abruptly stops talking and drops his head really fast.
Robert Holmes was the script writer for The Two Doctors - and in the first few seasons of Tom Baker's run as The Doctor, Robert Holmes had been the script editor, as well as an occasional script writer (or re-writer of scripts)
Stories scripted by Bob Holmes for Doctor Who: some of which I really enjoyed watching!
1 The Krotons (Second Doctor)
2 The Space Pirates (Second Doctor)
3 Spearhead from Space (Third Doctor)
4 Terror of the Autons (Third Doctor)
5 Carnival of Monsters (Third Doctor)
6 The Time Warrior (Third Doctor)
7 The Ark in Space (Fourth Doctor) Tom Baker has said that The Ark in Space is his favourite story from his era of Doctor Who.
8 Pyramids of Mars (Fourth Doctor) Holmes used a pen name 'Stephen Harris.'
9 The Brain of Morbius (Fourth Doctor) Original script by Terrance Dicks was very heavily re-written by Holmes, Dicks did not want to put his name to the script so the pseudonym of ROBIN BLAND was the credited script writer.
10 Uncredited writer of episode one of The Hand of Fear (Fourth Doctor).
11 The Deadly Assassin (Fourth Doctor).
12 The Talons of Weng-Chiang (Fourth Doctor)
13 The Sun Makers (Fourth Doctor)
14 The Ribos Operation (Fourth Doctor)
15 The Power of Kroll (Fourth Doctor)
16 The Caves of Androzani (Fifth Doctor)
17 The Two Doctors (Sixth and Second Doctors)
18 The Trial of a Time Lord (Sixth Doctor) Episodes one to four, and episode 13.
To elaborate on what some others have said, it is the season 6b theory where, instead of sentencing him to exile, the time lords sentence the Doctor to Death. The Celestial Intervention Agency (referred to in 'The Deadly Assassin' intervene and commute the sentence to exile provided the Doctor do some jobs for them first. (It's why Troughton's Doc says what he does to the phantasms in the Five Doctors) Two Doctor Who novels (by Terrance Dicks no less) explain further - Players and World Game and, at the end of World Game, the 2nd Doctor requests one of his former companions be returned to him for the next mission and he was granted Jamie.
This story has awesome actors in it and also have you ever seen Blake,s Seven and if so, are you going to do a review on Blake,s Seven please.
"You don't wanna watch this-"
Realises he's about to loose 30% of his viewers;
"No, you *do* wanna watch this!"
Well I really enjoy The Two Doctors, it's probably my favourite Colin Baker tv story I just find it funny that season 22 effectively turns into a crossover with Blake's 7 considered Paul Darrow and Jacqueline Pearce are both in this season. In the wilderness years this was part of the part of season 6B which elaborated on in the novel the World Games, however Big Finish did an Early Adventure a few years ago called The Black Hole that wraps itself around this story which some what contradicts the novel.
The 2nd Doctor and the Time Lord's was explained by the theory called Season 6B, which the BBC has accepted as being canon, which is for the best as this story makes no sense without it.
The CIA, celestial intervention agency, took the Doctor out of his time stream just before his regeneration to do missions for them. They gave him a better functioning Tardis, which is why it looks different and allowed Jamie his memory back to help the Doctor, possibly Victoria starting traveling with them again or Jamie was only allowed some of his memory and mentally thinks it's season 5.
The Doctor's hair went grey due to the stress the time Lord's put him under. He tried to escape his fate but was caught by scarecrows animated by the time Lords which finally cause his regeneration.
Nice involvement of the Comic strip adventures there. As I mentioned in my first answer on 6b, look up the novel 'World Game' which does mention, at the end, why Jamie is there and why Victoria is mentioned in '2 Doctors'.
Well, I guess we can work out that when the listing of multi-doctor stories comes out, this will hold the bottom spot?
The Characters: The Second Doctor, Jamie McCrimmon, Shockeye of the Quawncing Grig, Dastari the Head of Projects, Chessene of the Franzine Grig, Oscar Botcherby, Anita, Major Varl, Group Marshal Stike, The Sixth Doctor, Perpugilliam "Peri" Brown. My thoughts: I really liked this story, but it had a lot problems and the writing was the least of them. There was a plague of little things going wrong during filming - props going missing, high heat melting make-up, actors refusing to wear costumes, a local stuntman refusing to do a stunt as choreographed and even the negative of the film getting scratched which required an expensive re-shoot as the actors had to be flown back to Spain from England. It's a pity the story didn't go ahead as originally planned (the funding for location filming in the U.S. fell through, apparently) because then the story would just have been about the Sixth Doctor, Second Doctor, Jamie, Peri and the Sontarans. I won't say watching the ever fabulous Jacqueline Pearce was a hardship, though - she and Kate O'Mara (The Rani) were perfect Doctor Who villains.
I actually enjoyd The Two Doctors. :) I think it was a lot of fun. But I do understand your points, and I agree with a lot of them, but I still like this. :D
Tide to the concept of the Doctor being symbiotically linked to the Tardis, I had an idea for a story where a newly regenerated Doctor, as a last & potentially deadly resort uses a special critically vital component from the Tardis that symbiotically bio links the Doctor's DNA (or the Time Lord equivalent of DNA) to their Tardis, to prove their identity as the real Doctor as an imposter forced regeneration on them and had taken on the appearance of their previous self so it or rather it's mysterious 'puppet master' (but not the Master) can get access to a doomsday weapon that its master wants...
The Two Doctors is the perfect side of BATSHIT FUCKING MENTAL for me, and I absolutely love it. The Sgian dubh stabbed into the Sontaran's leg was a marvellous way for Jamie to escape!
As others have mentioned, this story is the origin of the "Season 6B" theory which has been picked up in a number of books and other media. It is essentially that the regeneration into Three happened a few years after we saw it on screen, with the Doctor and Jamie (if not Zoe) doing secret missions for the Time Lords as part of their punishment. That explains how Two and Jamie have some advanced TARDIS features that Six does not have. The idea is that everyone was mind-wiped at the end of this set of adventures. I do not know if I buy that theory, but it is a classic-era fanwank for why this serial otherwise would make absolutely no sense.
On the bright side, this allowed for the producers to show (and be reminded of) what a proper Doctor/Companion relationship looked like.
2nd and Jamie was possibly one of the best, if not THE best doctor/companion dynamtic, not to mention the most stories. 20 stories of 2nds 21 story run, 110 episodes, no other companion (bar one) has ever matched it!
I'd love to see your take on Trial of a Timelord. All 14, no cheatin.
It's more troughton than we had before so I'll take it
this was his last story, so for that alone it was worth the watch
"The Two Doctors" works because both Doctors are equally opinionated, egotistical and irritating to those around them. If they weren't the same person they could easily have played brothers. The plot was weak and stupid but it didn't matter because the two sparring with each other was just magic and the unofficial excuse for this was to give the cast and crew a paid holiday on the Continent. (there's a video documentary out there somewhere that works on this premise and how everyone fared during this shoot)
I wish I didn't have to agree with everything in this review. I wanted to like the Two Doctors. I don't know that it's the worst, but a multi-Doctor story builds up the viewer's expectations that that when it fails, it might feel worse than it is. But it's certainly not good.
I think the deal with Peri was that she was supposed to feel guilty or responsible that the Fifth Doctor sacrificed himself to save her? And repays that by staying with him through his new regeneration? But I don't really care, honestly, I'm just thankful she's there. Peri is soft and pure in a way we hadn't really seen since Jo Grant? And probably haven't seen since - though, Rose has her moments, I guess - and I just love it. Her interactions with the Sixth Doctor, even when it's just mindless bickering, is the big reason why I actually really enjoy Colin's era overall. Except for this episode. This one really sucked.
Wow. This is really strange. For me the 2 Doctors is like my favourite 6th Doctor story, and not even in an ironic way. I genuinely enjoy this story every time I watch it and I don't think that it drags on at any point. It's lengthy, it takes time, but i felt that every second was well-spent. Except for the part where the guy got stabbed with a kitchen knife. That was sudden and uncalled for. Other than that I think it was fantastically intriguing and it managed to subvert quite a few of my expectations. And the part where the Doctor and the Androgan go to the restaurant is just pure comedy gold for me. I love the sort of stuff where two people decide to go do this one silly thing and end up in a completely hilarious situation.
-Do you serve humans here?
-Most of the time, sir.
I just get this really nice journey vibe from this scene that reminds me of the Mrs. Premise and Mrs. Conclusion sketch from Monty Python (if you know what I'm talking about). So, yeah, really strange to see such a starkly differing opinion on this episode.
Maybe old Who isn't for you when you're watching it for the first time in 2018? It may hurt your brain a little less if you watch the stories through the lens of a viewer back when they first aired. I think you are being far too harsh on this story in particular, because Colin Baker had worse stories than this one.. Lol. I have seen this multiple times over the years and adore the first episode, appreciated the pro veg*n message and enjoyed the interplay between the Doctors, and between Doctor 6 and Jamie. As a viewer of the story when it first aired I guess I'm just much more forgiving of its weaknesses. The Sontaran are completely unnecessary and underused though, and they look as bad as they do in the new series. For me they only ever looked menacing in The Time Warrior
Salva I watched all the 6th Doctor Who episodes in 2018 for the first time and enjoyed a few. The Two Doctors is one of my favourites.
My first classic who episode... I kinda liked it...
My fav Colin Baker Story, Robert Holmes always saw Who as more adult based show. This is closest to that vision.
It also turned up in pyramid of Mars, Suhtek couldnt work the tardis, "So its Isamorphic, it responds to you alone" And its been established since the 5th story of the very first season, the Tardis is partially alive
I couldn't believe that Dastari was Jesus' (earthly) dad in Ben-Hur (1959).
I never downvote a video i enjoy, so i've given a thumbs up even though i disagree with almost everything contained within. I know it's not a great story, but there's just so much i do actually enjoy in this - especially John Stratton as Shockeye (Shockeye o' the Quawncing Grig, to give him his full appellation). As to the budget, i assume most of it went on the filming in and around Seville, and these foreign location shoots were something of a joy back in the day. I also quite like Oscar and Anita, while acknowledging that they are pretty random and have no real involvement in the story itself.
There again, i also liked the bit where Oscar gets stabbed, because i was a very bloodthirsty child and it's a gleefully Robert Holmes thing to happen in a Doctor Who.:)
I simultaneously kind of like this story but also don't really disagree with anything you said. I think I was just so excited to see Troughton and Hines back that I was okay with all of the story's other issues
Great review, I agree with all of it. Every so often I've tried to watch it thinking "It's Robert Holmes - it must be ok" but no! But no mention of the actress playing Chessene? Surely every review mentions her. With this and your Timelash review I'm getting the feeling there's a gap in your sci fi knowledge.
The SONTARAN masks are not reused. They were made specifically for this story.
Ooh please do a multi doctor ranking!
time travel being bad for you, the only other ep i can remember that deals with the side effects is in the talons of weng chiang
While I agree that The Two Doctors is a bad story, here's why it's much better than The Twin Dilemma:
1) The Two Doctors is far more enjoyable, in terms of unintentional hilarity.
2) There are likeable characters, not like in The Twin Dilemma
3) The Doctor doesn't assault Peri
4) The Two Doctors *tries* to make you think about the morality of genetic tampering and overindulgence
5) The acting is much better than that in The Twin Dilemma
6) It's always a pleasure to see Patrick Troughton on screen.
It's interesting to consider that The Krotons, Spearhead from Space, Terror of the Autons, The Time Warrior, The Deadly Assassin, The Talons of Weng-Chiang and The Caves of Androzani all came from the same screenwriter as that of The Two Doctors
No, it's no surprise at all.
I'm not sure who had expressed surprise, but it's certainly intriguing
Why is it, if I may ask?
I find the gulf in quality between The Two Doctors and the other stories I mentioned quite interesting. Perhaps Holmes had an off day or perhaps he was making a veiled point - who knows? It piqued my interest, but perhaps I'm alone in that
The Two Doctors is a fantastic black comedy with great dialogue and is entertaining throughout. The sontarans are largely unnecessary and it's leisurely paced but for me there isn't a dull moment.
The most frustrating thing about modern audiences to me is that most of the time they can't see past the budget. Every story doesn't need to have a large cast. Budgeting had nothing to do with the number of characters in the script. This is one of the best stories of Colin Bakers run, and in terms of pacing, TV was written way different in 1985 than it is now. The modern audience has a very limited attention span, the main thing I would suggest is that you watch classic who an episode at a time, don't try and watch a 2 hour story all at once, that's not how it was intended to be viewed, so if it doesn't work that way you can't really fault the material for not working in a way it was never designed to work. I honestly think that you will more often than not have a ton of problems with the classic series, it's not for everyone. It might not be for you. You may just be a fan of NuWho, there's not a point to putting yourself through 26 seasons of a format and style you generally haven't enjoyed.
AndrozaniMajor he's an American
The Two Doctors is leisurely paced, but it's certainly never dull.
So am I.
This isn't just a modern audience thing. That more applies to the original Star Trek. I remember even at the time a lot of us thought of it as that cheap British sci-fi show with the weird guy with the long scarf that PBS showed on weekends.
Until you actually watch and see the characters and writing, it's easy to dismiss.
He's likes the Classic series, loves stories like City of Death, Time Warrior and Tomb of the Cybermen. He's praised the pacing of Classic Who when it's done well. I don't think it was well paced in this instance. It doesn't have enough to fill 3 (essentially six) parts. If it's going to have a small cast make it a smaller story.
I know you probably would *never* *ever* want to, but a drunk (*very* drunk) viewing of this episode would be funny. But, I wouldn't want to put you through that ever.
Welcome to the series 6B universe where a faction of the Time Lords (undoubtedly the Celestial Interventionist Agency) slip the second Doctor and Jamie out of their time streams after the trial but before the regeneration of the 2nd Doctor to do a bunch of work for the Time Lords with or without Zoe....also that business with the Monk....which considering that BF is kinda more canon than anything else non-television related....might fit better....So just gloss over that glaring flaw the community already has created a not-fix...
That being said, that doesn't fix....this... Unfortunately for Colin Baker his run on television as the Doctor is a lot like this...with only really Vengeance on Varos, the Dalek episode (Resurrection or Revelation....) and maybe....Attack of the Cybermen...being the only truly....middling to good serials. Some might add Trial of a Time Lord but frankly I think they only watched most of the first three minutes with that model shot of the space station and then blacked out for the rest of the series.....
Errr…"no money for anything?" Not really.... This one probably had the highest budget for the season, because of the overseas filming. It has a small cast, not because of the budget, but because of the need to take the cast to Spain.
I agree with you about this story. I did not enjoy it and have not revisited it and have no plans to in the future. However, a much better story with the 6th Doctor and Jamie is on Big Finish. It is called "City of Spires" and it is very different and very awesome. I am finding most of the Classic Who is much better on Big Finish.
I think series 6b should help explain your question about why the doctor is working for the time lords.
It’s a series of comics where the doctor has his regeneration halted by the time loads so that he can go on several missions for them before they exile him. His actual regeneration takes place in the last of these comics.
It’s not even a ret con, the comics came out between the broadcast of the war games and spearhead from space. If you’ve seen the five doctors, it also explains why the doctor knows that Jamie and Zoe had their minds wiped.
This was actually the first classic doctor who I watched. I wanted to get into classic Doctor Who, I was like 12, so I asked for the two doctors, the three doctors and the five doctors for Christmas - thinking I get to know a lot of the old doctors. At the time I just assumed the two doctors was about the 1st to doctors so I watched it first thinking it was first chronologically. I remember it dragging on for ages but I can’t remember much else about it. I suppose that must say something because I remember a lot about the three doctors and five doctors and have actually watched them multiple times. I’ve never watched this a second time!
Lots of people have already commented about Series 6B and the BBC making this ancient fan theory semi-canonical. So, Take any non on screen or Big Finish stories with a grain of salt essentially. However( This comment is mostly for folks who don’t already know what 6B is,) The On screen events involving the second Doctor as part of 6B are, The Three Doctors, Five Doctors and Two Doctors. Troughton is seen in all three wearing clothing Pertwee wore in “Spearhead from Space.” Pertwee is not wearing Troughtons clothes from War Games. The Two Doctors helps play into the 6B concept with the Time Lords having messed with his memory. This would also explain why Classic WHO never really seemed to get the Doctors age consistent cause he can’t remember how old he is and it’s an educated guess. All age related answers are technically non canonical or just something fans have come up with and choose to believe persononally. Phew, at some point, probably during the time war, the Time Lords may have restored his memories and now we have a consistent age range for NuWHO. Again, 6B is semi-canon so lots of salt grains. All we can say for certain is what we can extrapolate from the On-Screen canon.
A lot of peeps think this story takes place directly after the five doctors before Troughton was reintegrated back into the time line and that they forget all of this. Like how Tennant forgot his meeting Smith. Course then you have to ask how Jamie got there. Ive seen other theories that these are time remnants. Versions of yhe characters pulled from alternate timelines at their aging was cause the energy used to bring them into the world is running out. Which means they could poof out of existance at the end of the story. :P
I am aware of the Season 6B theory and eventual integration into novels and comics. But that exists to explain screw ups like this, so I'm not one to let it off the hook just because it got a retcon explanation later.
Try for bad stories, the 1st doctor story the "Gunfighters"
Ranking of the Multi-Doctor episodes should be fairly easy.
Both of these are pretty awesome!
1. The Day of the Doctor
2. The Three Doctors
Both of these have a rather weak story, but are a good ride.
3. Twice Upon A Time
4. The Five Doctors
The only, objectively bad one.
5. The Two Doctors
The Two Doctors is a fantastic black comedy with great dialogue and is entertaining throughout.
Both Day and TUAT are shit. Day of The Doctor is more a NuWho 8th anniversary celebration than a Doctor Who 50th and Twice Upon A Time is degrading crap that features an unfairly caricaturized version of Hartnell's Doctor.
Do not watch Time Lash. You'll have a field day on that.
This story slots somewhere in the middle for me, better than ones like Terror of the Vervoids and Timelash, but worst than Vengeance on Varos, Revelation of the Daleks and Mindwarp.
Written by veteran Who writer Robert Holmes (look him up) but 'tinkered' with by JNT and co. So yes, underneath there's jolly little plot, but executed really, really badly. I think JNT saw It as just a excuse to have a great time abroad. :)
The character I think you're referring to is 'Shockeye'.
One thing you did miss - mostly - in this thing was the shocking level of violence in that third episode. That truck driver? Dead (according to the Doctor.) The Brit? Dead in a stabbing that's ON CAMERA. The Sontaran gets blown up AND SOMEONE CARRIES HIS LEG AROUND to show people? Then, using the Brit butterfly collectors cyanide, the Doctor MURDERS Shockeye in self defence? The Sixth Docot always had a problem with violence but this one really was the worst for it.
I did quite like the manual over-ride idea for the Space station doors though. It surprises me that you don't see that little idea more often.
What's most shocking about this though? It was written by Robert Holmes, probably the best Classic story writer.
Is there a call for this prissiness about the violence. Shockeye casually walking in with the sontaron's dismembered leg is hilarious. Yes, congratulations for watching 'the Doctor MURDERS Shockeye in self defense', what's your point? He strength is far greater and the doctor would stand no chance using fisticuffs or karate.
Well, just a bit. Season 22 was the most complained about series in the 1980's, featuring, amongst other things, Torture by laser, the Cybermen crushing Lyttons' hands, a (fake) hanging, several gratuitous deaths that could have been avoided, stabbings onscreen in more than one story, the Doctor shooting dead the Cyber Controller, Peri nearly being lunch AND mate to a monster and more that escapes my memory at the moment. Micheal Grade had made no secret that he wanted the show gone and, unlike the last time of real complaints, where one woman called Mary Whitehouse was doing a fascist attempt (her 'council' had her as leader, originator and sole spokeswoman), this was the general public complaining. Saward and Nathan-Turner had attempted to use the onscreen violence to draw attention to the effects of real world violence . It backfired. Badly. Because a lot of it was just pointless and other parts just glorified what they were trying to vilify.
@@alunrundle162 Oh yes and because some people wrote stuffy letters to the BBC, that definitely means JNT and Eric Saward should have taken a puritan approach...
Most of season 22 is supposed to be black comedy anyway, so it is entirely justified.
I saw this video when it first came out, and it made me steer clear of The Two Doctors for years. I've finally just decided to watch it for myself, and I respectfully disagree with you. I'm not sure if it's because I went into it with really low expectations, but I had a lot of fun with this story.
My initial fear was that it was going to feel padded out and slog in the middle like most classic Who stories that are six parts long, which this effectively is. To my surprise, however, I felt this story moved at a really brisk pace. The budgetary limitations didn't really bother me at all. I don't think I would have even noticed the small number of characters or repeated references to two scientists who aren't there if I hadn't seen this first (not saying it isn't a valid complaint, it just doesn't bother me personally).
Something I really like is that the actors were clearly having fun with this story, particularly Patrick Troughton as an Androgum. That's something you don't get with some of the classic Who stories, where the actors can sometimes look bored, and I'm bored watching it. I'm not sure what it says about me, but I also thought the anticlimactic death of the Shakespeare quoting waiter was hilarious and I genuinely think that's why they sunk so much time into his plot line with the Spanish woman.
It's funny. I often agree with you on most things Doctor Who, but over the years, I have noticed that we are polar opposites when it comes to the televised Colin Baker stories. You seemed to at least somewhat enjoy The Trial of a Timelord (I think you said you liked parts one and two, didn't like part three, and thought part four was fine), while I thought that whole season was just about the worst thing I'd ever seen in my entire life. And you think The Two Doctors is one of the worst Colin Baker stories, while I would say it's one of his absolute best. I don't think it's as good as Vengeance on Varos, but it might be my favorite of his outside of that.
I think you basically covered everything that's wrong with this story but also...
Peri is even stupider than normal. "What's that?" "I don't know what that means?" "I don't understand. " And that olde timey swoon lol.
And the 6th seemed even ruder to her than usual.
Regarding two people traveling together that can't get along and don't want to be with each other: this can work if it is made so they must be together. for example, if the companion is from Earth and accidentally get's caught in the TARDIS, which the Doctor can't get back to the right place and time or, at least, close to it. Yes, then the writing and the actors need to work, but the concept is not a bad one. After all, nobody on the Jupiter 2 wanted Doctor Smith along, as he was trying to sabotage the trip. But Will Robinson liked him and that doctor was eventually brought around.
I always wanted to see this one. Its two of my favorite and IMO most underrated Doctors of the classic era (asides 5th and 7th) and its just so... Poor. One thing I liked about this episode was they actually made Colins outfit decent ! Most the episode he isn't even wearing that nasty patch coat, and just has a Hawaiian vest and the shirt and pants. Its not great, but it looks a hella lot better than the coat.
This was one of the first stories that i watched, and i managed to sit through it all. It shows the TARDIS team working at their best as now Peri has someone that she can talk to in Jamie. And it is nice to see troughton back
Yesterday At Sheffield Comicon Colin Baker, as funny and engaging as ever, was asked about his favorite Doctor. As usual he ducked the question, but then he said Troughton was his favorite and certainly the most important because if the Troughton regeneration had not been a success none of the subsequent Doctors would have happened. I haven't seen this episode since it was broadcast. I suspect i didn't like it much but the pleasure for a fan at the time before multiple repeats and home video was the joy of seeing Troughton and Jamie again. Yes they were older but most of us only saw them once in these roles in black and white on poor quality screens. Jamie is up there with Sarah Jane as my favorite ever companions.
So sorry - this review has made me want to watch it again ;)
Ohh.. and the Twin Dilemma (so it's not all bad)
I do agree it doesn't make sense that the 2nd would work for the timelords
try forced to
i find it funny how the 6th doctor cares about Jamie's wellbeing but completely disregards Peri's
Back in the days when continuity was exclusively reliant on the production staff's memory! It was probably 'The Five Doctors' that actively started messing the 2nd Doctor's timeline. But from all that, Season 6b, the ultimate in fan theory plot hole rectifying anon!
The Jamie being 20 years older and not being caught seems strange now but back in the 80s not as much and you guessed why - TVs were lower resolution, they were also usually smaller. I sort of am meh about the episode, giving it extra points for having multiple doctors, although was always puzzled that if they were going to bring Trougton and Hynes back why not make it more of an event (I would have to check, but I do not think this was a 25th anniversary or something like that and, yeh, so many wasted chances between 2 and 6). How the androgums were referred to was what set me off with them. We see new enemies and races all the time in Who but with the androgums it was almost like we were expected to know them from before and have an emotional reaction to them. Some great performances from lots of people, I just wish the writing had been at the same level.
I'm not sure that any of the First or Second Doctor's stories had even been rebroadcast in the UK by 1985, and I don't think any Doctor Who stories had been released on home video anywhere at that point, so really, all viewers at the time had to go on as far as Two's and Jamie's looks were memories that were more than 15 years old. I don't doubt that many viewers at the time didn't notice that they looked older.
As for making it an event, no it wasn't an anniversary story or anything like that. It was simply the fact that Patrick Troughton had had a great time appearing in The Five Doctors, and wanted to reprise the role again, and JNT was quite willing to oblige him.
This episode was plagued with production problems costumes were lost, equipment got damaged, arguments with cast and crew and the temperature in Spain melted the makeup. Not to mention Sir Michael Grades continual pressure to cut the budget of the show and cancel it. I believe it was during this production the cast and crew were told it was going on hiatus. It's a small wonder it got made at all.
This also had Jaqueline pierce who was Servelan in Blakes seven. You need to watch that if you want to see classic british scifi. It was brilliant... well , the first two seasons were.
Hey, patrons! Can somebody pay him to do a video on Season 6B? I eas hoping he'd do one of his own back but apparently he doesn't know about it.
Big Finish has an audio story that provides a reason behind the 2nd Doctor's mission from the Time Lords. The story is called Black Hole and is part of The Early Adventures range of stories. The cook's name was Shockeye.
Xavier Woodard What's Thr Black Hole about?
Greppellio the 2nd Doctor, Jaime, and Victoria encounter the Monk and in the middle of the adventure the Two Doctors occur.
I get what your saying about portraying an entire race or species as with negativity but I also feel it makes for a better story when they have characters who defy that generalization..
It's terrible but on a scale of 1 to 5 it's a 4 as it's good on planning bad on execution and the fact the sixth doctor can hear the unconscious second doctor in Seville is a cheap shot. It could be that before the regeneration occurs the doctor is given a task and a companion to stop this then... The end arrives.
"There's a lot wrong with the writing" - pretty much sums up the entire sixth Doctor run for me.
I'll never understand how they managed to bring back arguably the best Doctor and companion combination the show ever had and it end up with story like this.
The Two Doctors is a fantastic black comedy with great dialogue and is entertaining throughout.
My thoughts are so mixed. I can't decide if I love or hate this episode. Like oh my god it confuses me so much
I finished this story for the 6th time today and I still think of it as one of my favorite stories. I have an unpopular opinion as the 6th doctor is my 2nd favorite of all of the doctors. And I find myself coming back to this story time and time again. It's probably because this is one of the first classic episodes I saw but Stike is my favorite SONTARAN of all time
maybe Peri did it because she felt she owed a sort of 'life debt' to the doctor after the 5th's Sacrifice.