Doctor Who Classic Review - The Twin Dilemma
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- Опубліковано 19 січ 2018
- The most disliked Doctors in one of the most disliked stories in the history of the show. But really, how bad could it be?
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The Peter Davison line you're probably thinking of is "It feels different this time."
I think the current (or a future) Doctor's final line ought to be: "Is this time? It feels different this death."
Or... there should have been another way lol
You keep asking, "What's so awful about this episode that I'm not getting?" Well, here's the answer, as best as I can explain it: At the time it aired, it was the last story of the season. Nowadays we have DVDs and the internet and all this other stuff. Back then, we had to watch it when it aired. So imagine this: One day someone comes up to you and says, "You are forbidden to watch any Doctor Who for eight months. We'll let you watch one more story and then we cut you off." And then the one story you're allowed to watch is this one.
Particularly coming after 'Caves of Androzani', "The Twin Dilemma", must of seemed like "Hell Bent" after "Heaven Sent".
That Peri choking scene definitely didn't help
He had just regenerated, bear that in mind.
Colin Baker had acted before, bear that in mind. Was he just badly directed? I don't know.
I just headcanon it as sexy breath-play and it's fine.:p
sean bowman I'd be ok with that tbh
My brain: Peri. Peri-Peri chicken. Choking Peri. Choking Peri-Peri chicken. Choking chicken. Is this post-regeneration a metaphor for puberty?
Yes, the Power of Kroll was about as bad production-wise as the Twin Dilemma, but it also didn't have anything riding on it. It was a filler story whereas The Twin Dilemma had the job of introducing a Doctor so the Twin Dilemma failing carries much greater weight than Kroll does.
Thing with the Cybermen you mentioned the idea was to see the jaw so you knew there was something organic under there
One thing you mentioned that I don't think gets enough attention is that often, the alien/monster design in Classic Who wasn't just cheap and poorly executed, it was poorly conceived as well. There's a very good reason that on Star Trek, Gene Roddenberry insisted that the makeup not obscure the actors' faces; he learned that lesson after a couple of instances showed the problem with doing that (see: the Gorn), but the people in charge of Classic Who never learned it. Yeah, it works in some cases like the Cybermen or the Ice Warriors where what we're seeing isn't supposed to be the actual face of the character, but rather armor, a mask, or some other sort of covering, but in general it's a bad idea.
That's a really interesting insight. It's sort of incredible to realise how many Classic Who villains were basically a guy in a not that good a mask and how much the show suffered from it.
Which is why all of the aliens in Star Trek just so happen to look like humans, but with different looking ears, or lots of spots on their forehead or whatever. What a coincidence that all alien races look almost exactly like humans! I don't mean to sound annoyed. I'm not. I see what you're saying, and agree with it to a small extent, but, for me, it's why Doctor Who looked imaginative, and Star Trek didn't.
There was some villain - I can't remember, sea devils maybe? It was during Davison's run - since the face didn't move, they had to put a light on top of the creature's head so you could tell who was talking. But this was supposed to be an organic being, not a robot. So we have a creature that evolved some method of talking where their mouth doesn't move but a light on their head lights up. Yeah, their creature design had a lot of problems in that era.
Maybe it was a British thing. I remember watching the Monty Python and the Holy Grail commentary and it comes to the Knights who say Ni... one of the Terrys says something like, "Michael's giving this incredible performance but we can't see it because of the huge false beard... shouldn't have done that." Could be it's part of that pantomime tradition we're always hearing about.
@@smallpox9254 Those were the Silurians in Warriors of the Deep. I got they impression (probably from that blinking light) that they communicated telepathically. Their lips didn't move in The Silurians either. Creature design in Classic who has always been problematic because the writers clearly had the imagination to come up with some interesting species, but not the budget to pull it off. If you look at the Silurians from Classic Who compared to the ones in New Who, the budget difference is screamingly obvious. Plus, of course, techniques for make-up, prosthetics and the like have improved over the last 40 years or so....
"The Twin Dilemma: still a better love story than The Power of Kroll."
This story's reputation precedes it;to the extent that many people have had their negative opinions formed entirely around what other fans have written on various forums over the years (decades,in fact);and this also extends to unfair opinions on Colin Baker himself.I once watched a YT video which bashed the 6th Doctor and his era;only to see another video by the same YT creator,apologising for his previous opinions and admitting that he'd never actually watched anything with the 6th Doctor up to that point - had now watched a couple of his stories...and found him to be pretty good! The 6th Doctor dislike is something like a meme;which floats around Who random,and biases opinions from the get go.However,due to a combination of growing knowledge of the unfortunate behind-the-scenes problems of the time (over which,Colin Baker had absolutely no control whatsoever);plus a stellar characterisation on BigFinish,the reputation of the 6th Doctor seems to be gradually changing for the better.
I figure if you’re going to rank Six based only on the show (which I do feel is fair to do since audios aren’t for everybody,) at least acknowledge that.
I always like the 6th Doctor and I haven't listened to the audios, except for 'Slipback' (cringe). I could see past the costume (and the behind the scene problems) and see the potential for 6. And I liked that last line he gave at the end.
Agreed ! It definitely does seem to be changing [finally !]....a development which is long overdue - in my [ not at all ] humble opinion. 😏 But perhaps "Sixie" summed it up best : "Change , my dear - and it seems not a moment too soon !" ......You already knew THAT was coming....Heheheh. 😉😋😊😄 All the best... and stay safe !! 👌🏾
Interesting fact: Castrovalva wasn't the first story Davison shot; that was Four to Doomsday. They intentionally held back Castrovalva in the shooting order for the season so that Davison would be finding his feet in the role by the time they made it.
One important fact regarding the story's initial broadcast. This came at the end of a season rather than at the beginning. Of one' then the show went on hiatus and the audience only had this story to mull over evaluate the new Doctor. If audiences decide they don't like a certain character then it can colour their perception of them going forward (especially amongst more younger viewers) even when there is genuine improvement. If you some other perspectives a the story's reputation is so negative then I would recommend Diamanda Hagan and SfDebris' videos on it.
Please keep us up to date on what you think of Big Finish's work. I love their stuff - particularly the 8th Doctor and War Doctor and would love to know your thoughts.
I don't like this story but Warriors of the deep is much worse.
Watching Classic Who episodes out of order is the issue for you here...watch Caves, then watch Twins back to back. I think you'll see why fans hate this story so much due to the drop off in writing & acting quality. It was also the last serial of series 21, so fans stewed on it for months...which added to its reputation for being garbage. Finally, consider who was the Doctor in the last serial...affable Peter Davison. The extreme switch to cranky Colin Baker killed the show for a lot of fans (myself included). I stopped watching Who after this episode, and didn't come back until after Colin Baker was fired...yeah, he was that bad.
I personally don't think he was that bad. I don't think there has ever been a bad Doctor. But that's just me. Colin's biggest problem was that he this was his dream job, he was a fan of the show (he's a Troughton fan), and he wanted to play the role for at least as long as Tom Baker did... and he was just let down by everyone around him (the writers, the directors, the costumer-- he's gone on record saying he hated his costume, the production team, JNT, and so on)
He's not that bad at all, he's toned down in season 22, 23 and the audios. He's a lot better than Tennant.
Colin is ironically a really nice fellow - perhaps the nicest man to ever play the Doctor, and I don't understate that. Considering he still appreciates his time on the show and the fanbase, despite their disdain for his run, it's quite telling.
Not disputing that Colin Baker was treated unfairly or anything, or that the quality of his work improved over time...just saying that when I saw this in 1987 (3 years after it aired in the UK), I was 11 years old. I was incredibly sad that Peter Davison was gone and this new guy made me mad. Simply put, his first impression on me was terrible as a child. Do I think he's he the worst Doctor now? Depends on how you look at it...for Classic Who he is. Overall, looking at the entire 50 year history of the show, there are some NuWho actors who I think are worse + the Peter Cushing movies that are just...meh.
capaldi's doctor is nothing done right
Ah the Twin Dilemma is an example of taking a lot of risky decisions and throwing them ALL into one story. New Doctor who is very difficult normally, with added nastiness as a regenerative trauma, introduced at the end of the season, an...interestingly awful costume, end of season budget, a poor uninspired director, bad set designer, a writer new to the series more used to adaptations - things that on their own are fine but piled on one single story is just too much.
The Doctor is this story is fascinating to me. The idea of a manic new Doctor trauma is interesting. The idea of a rather difficult hugely arrogant Doctor is interesting but doing the two at the same time was a bad idea! His normal persona isn't too different to the traumatic version so the audience expects him to be nasty at anytime. His balanced persona should be reasonable, pleasant, engaging and not just as nasty. Especially doesn't work as Peri doesn't work as a cushion in say the same way that Ian, Barbara and Susan did to the first Doctor's initially difficult persona. She's not strong enough to stand up to him so comes across as bullied and a victim. They needed another companion to take away the awkwardness of his attacks towards her.
Too many people were making decisions about the Doctor and not one of them gels. the producer wanted an unpleasant Doctor with a mad costume, the script editor didn't like Colin's casting and Colin wants to do a Doctor who reveals himself slowly. Colin's idea isn't bad but you can't do that with Doctor Who - the Doctor needs to be identifiable at any moment as he's the generic hero. At this stage they can't play around with the character like an interpretation for a stage play. The costume is a good summation of the Sixth Doctor - for lots of panels of fabric clashing and not working together read lots of ideas for the new Doctor clashing and not working together. Anyway the script editor ignored Colin's ideas as far as I can see so he's just an unlikeable loud arrogant mess.
I find it Colin's most enjoyable performance as he's clearly galvanised by his new role and running with it, all guns blazing.
I think that after the big public support for the show with the 20th Anniversary (the BBC convention held at Longleat was advertised on TV and they had to send people away as it was so overwhelmed by attendees). I think that gave the production team a false tense of invincibility and that they could do anything and it would be loved.
An excellent summation of background to The Twin Dilemma !! Thanks so much ! 👌🏾👍🏾👍🏾
have you reviewed the colin baker episode the two doctors?
I've personally never seen The Twin Dilemma. Heard of its reputation throughout the years and avoided it as a result. But, from your review, it sounds like Classic Who's Equivalent of an Extremely, Poorly, Thought-Out New Who episode. I'll give it a watch now, although I hope it's not too painfully bad. Also, I doubt Colin actually wanted to act Un-Doctor-ly, but he wanted to stay at least as long as Tom did. Six would've undergone a Redemption Character Arc during this time, however Colin got fired before any changes in Six were blatantly obvious.
Vortex Infinite "Extremely, Poorly, Thought-Out" would mean extremely thought-out, just poorly. You probably want to remove the commas. And the unnecessary capitalisation.
This video’s audio plays back at about 4 times speed lol. You sound like a Chipmunk. Kinda fun
MasterMissyASMR good it wasn't just me.
Or me.
Yeah me too.
Main problem is how it follows Caves of Androzani story wise is so striking in quality.
Warriors of the deep is pretty bad too!
When I got into classic who years back I started with all the Dalek eps from Genesis forward (Destiny Revelation Resurection Remembrance) and then Three and Five Doctors so I got a little taster of all the doctors as could
I think most of the writing issues can be put at the feet of Eric Saward, since he introduced and really pushed for episodes where the Doctor was either a irrelevant bystander or unwilling to help. (And had the position to do so, as script editor)
As for the episode itself, it really didn't help that not only did we not see a good side to The Doctor, but it also seems to accidentally show some of the worst sides of Peri too. The two of them just don't gel, even in subsequent episodes.
Great review! I also agree with you, definitely not a good story, but not as bad as people say. Another idea for a video you might want to do is ranking the regeneration stories as I'd really like to see your opinion on that. :)
Eventually I’ll get around to ranking regeneration stories and post regeneration stories. But I need to see them all first.
I remember seeing the doctor choke Peri in the first episode because of post regenerative effects that was a first . He did not want to help anybody in this story very self centered later though in his era it dies down . I liked Azmael in this story the doctor's old friend and mentor I liked his character in the story I cried a bit when he died as he was on his last regeneration.
Colin Baker is my favourite Classic Who doctor.
Me too!
Just wanted to pop in and say hello! Great channel! 👍
I grew up with Classic Who right alongside New Who and this episode isn't bad. It's not good, but it's not bad. It's not just newer people like you, Nathaniel.
Everything like choking Peri and "whether you like it or not" was the head people trying to kill the show when Baker's era started. Luckily stuff in this episode can mainly be explained by "Post-Regeneration Stress Stuff"
Classic Who fans calling you a "killjoy" eh? As a McCoy fan, that had a nice irony. :P
For me it's mostly the choking the companion thing. Not so much the act itself, dark as it is, but what follows - the fact that he doesn't actually apologise. Like all the crazy stuff in this story can be ignored as PRT but at the end of the story Peri is still showing loyalty by staying with Six and instead of thanking her or giving a sincere apology, he just mocks her. Like compare that with when Eight slaps Charley because he's possessed, yeah he's crazy, but he shows remorse, and they work through all their issues in Scherzo. I never got why Peri stayed with Six after this, she just always looked miserable with him.
how do you go about watching the old who's?
dailymotion, dailymotion, dailymotion!
As a huge classic fan I pretty much agree. It wasn't great but wasn't terrible barring the choking scene. Time and the Rani, the Underwater Menace, Time Flight, and The Invisible Enemy are all worse. The worst part of the mask for me is the way he looked crosseyed. That was offputting.
Maybe it's because TTD came off of Androzani, the best Doctor Who story EVER (in spite of the magma monster) and was so JARRING to many, that it earned that negative reputation so badly. Fandom is strange that way.
I think with this one it's important to put yourself in the mindset of people watching this story when it first aired. You've got a story where every single shortcoming of classic Doctor Who magically came together to create a completely disastrous tale with horrible production values, but it's kind of fascinating to watch in that sense. You have to consider though that this was not only the audience's first introduction to the Sixth Doctor but also their only exposure to him for MONTHS, given that it was shot as the last story of season 21 to let the hype build up for season 22. I don't particularly see it as the worst story of all time, but I can see why people would think that because it essentially sank Colin Baker's tenure before it even began and featured every problem his era would face. I think it's like how future fans will not look back at Hell Bent with the same hatred as I do because they didn't live through it and have the benefit of hindsight that everything ended up okay.
I have to confess that Colin Baker's costume is perhaps my favorite of all the Doctors'. I just find the weirdness and uniqueness of it to be strangely appealing. I'd love to cosplay it except I'm certain it would be a nightmare for any costume maker to recreate.
for your own safety: don't say things like that here, these fans bite
Power of Kroll had Mary Tamm and no episode containing Mary Tamm is going to be worse than Twin Dilemma.
YES! I love Mary so much! Power of Kroll could have been a lot better, but it does have to be there to complete the story arc. I just think it's so bad it's good and have good laugh.
Yeah, Power of Kroll is bad but I still enjoy it far more than this because it had Mary Tamm and Tom Baker. They elevated sub-standard material while Colin Baker's performance actively detracts from it here. Colin has a few nice moments throughout his time and a couple of them are even in this episode (his scene with Azmael as he dies being one). His combination of unpleasantness and overacting made his era a bit of a chore, and since it's most on display here it attracts hate like a magnet.
I adore the Key to Time, even if there are some dodgy episodes.
@@joelakat Colin Baker does not detract from the story in the slightest. He is charismatic and fun. The Twin Dilemma is just a middle of the road story, far from being terrible or indeed 'the worst story' ever as far as fandom is concerned. Much of the criticism against it is the typical parroted fandom hot air.
@@tost6956 you're right that fandom has piled on to this story quite a bit, but I can't really claim to have been a part of that when I first saw this story in the mid-90s on PBS (I didn't even know the regeneration was coming at the end of Caves). I was just someone watching the show with very little context or outside knowledge at that point and Colin's Doctor didn't leave me cold so much as with a feeling of "I'll wait and see if I warm up to this approach" which I never fully did. It was unfair of me to say his whole era was a chore because when I think of what I don't like about some of his stories it's often the things around him that stand out (like the character design and the twins in this story). I thought Series 22 was actually pretty good overall and that this story was weaker than anything we got there (even Timelash, which I always enjoyed and was surprised to discover that fandom hated). I'd put this story 3rd from the bottom for Colin's era, above Mindwarp and Terror of the Vervoids, which were each severely hampered by the pace-killing scenes and unreliable narrator aspects forced on them by the Trial.
It would be really interesting if you could do a video on watching Doctor Who as an American. The cultural differences, if the accents are understandable, if anything seems jarring or weird (apart from time travel and Daleks I mean ) 😄
THANK YOU! Finally, someone who also thinks (like myself) that ‘The Twin Dilemma’ doesn’t deserve the REALLY REALLY REALLY bad reputation it has and, frankly, isn’t as bad as everyone makes it out to be. I also really enjoyed Colin Baker’s take on the Doctor 👍🏽😊
This episode proves first impressions are important.
have you decided whether or not you'll do my idea of reviewing every modern story in 10 words or less? it's a fun challenge i'd be rather excited to see you tackle!
It’s officially on the docket. But since I try to not do more than one Doctor Who video a week and have a few already scheduled, it’s a little while away.
awesome! no rush mate, i was just wondering if it was something we could expect to see. keep up the fantastic quality.
I liked his speech. Bow craggy knob which swims upon the ocean...
It's for three reasons. One, the sheer yawning chasm of comparative quality between this and Androzani; two, the sheer boneheaded production decisions and the lack of shits being given that allowed the last story of the season, the one that would be etched into the memories of viewers for nine months, to be the cheapest, tackiest, and bad first impressions of a new Doctor instead of the finest moments of the previous one; and most of all, three, it is so, so, SO easy to take the piss out of. Robert Holmes famously had his head in his hands in the gallery while this was being made, groaning "this isn't Doctor Who". Oh but I'm afraid it is, at least for a generation of comedy writers - trawl through all the Doctor Who parodies made between 1985 and 1999, and you'll find that if it isn't Trial Of A Timelord, it's *this* story that said parodies draw direct inspiration from and look exactly like.
i don't think caves is that good...
You had to be there at the time to really appreciate the dichotomy.
There are few things that didn't help this episode back when it aired in 1984 tagging it onto the end of Peter Davison's run wasn't the best of ideas especially as "Caves" is a great story the monster aside (dragon type thing). Within the episode itself the attempted killing of Peri really got peoples backs up and or disturbed people, then you have the costume its still hideous even though the Big Finish version which is all blue looks much nicer, and as you said people maybe were worried for the "Doctor". I don't think the story in itself is that bad. Then people had to wait from March 1984 to January 1985 (I'm talking the UK here) to see what was going to happen. The show then went through another change gone were the 4x25 minute episodes to 2x45 minute episodes, a major change at the time. So the new era for a new doctor certainly didn't get off to a good start.
I think part of the reason you can defend some of the things is an understanding of how television was made back then. A lot of things were compartmentalised, so the designer would design the costume for Mestor and then it would be created and when you finished with it...that was it. Twin Dilemma, particularly, had no money to go back and fix that costume. They were stuck with it. So it wasn't great, it didn't work...but there was no money to fix it, so they had to live with it. It wasn't apathy...it was just...time and money.
I agree with the overall sentiment here and it's a fantastic review. The only thing that I disagree with - and it's kind of a tiny thing really - is the idea that the Doctor needs to always want to help. I always interpreted the way he is following the regeneration into six to be those little remnants of his past memories popping up and trying to encourage self preservation but going a bit wonky and overcompensating - this is indicated in the visions of his companions and the Master during the regeneration. Imagine how you'd be if the last thing you saw before dying was your friends who have either left you or died and your greatest enemy gloating over your death? You'd be a bit of a mental case when you came back to life. Consider this: the fourth Doctor dies falling from a radio telescope as he saves the universe from the Master, the fifth dies because he used the only antidote to the Spectrox poisoning to save his companion. Both of these selfless acts got him killed - his compassion killed him. If the driving force of an organism is to survive, wouldn't there at least be a small part of the mind of the Doctor that would start to go "you know what, this whole compassion and sacrifice business isn't doing wonders for us, perhaps we need to be a bit more resistant to that this time"? Of course, it isn't handled superbly in this story but it was a bold idea at the time and the first time that a showrunner really tried to push the boundaries of how you could handle the Doctor assuming a new body and persona. Of course, the joy of six (heh, pun) is that he redirects this selfish bombast into selfless bombast. By the time we get to Trial of a Timelord he's just as in your face about protecting others and righting wrongs as he was at the beginning about protecting himself. It's a bit like Hartnell on crack I guess. Now, as for McCoy's post-regenerative antics I guess when you die from hitting your head severe amnesia is a thing?
I agree that it wasn't the worst Dr. Who episode ever. And how Caves of Androzani is ranked as one of the best episodes of all time is beyond me. I guess the Dr.,s sacrifice for Peri impressed people. The monster reminds me of the Tractators of the 5th Doctor episode"Frontios". They were both sluggish I think. How dare you compare the twins to Adric I was so glad to see him killed off!
Colin Baker is my favorite Doctor.
I believe the line you are looking for is the 5th Doctor saying "it feels different this time".
I agree that Colin Baker's Dr. Is so much better in the Big Finish audio's.
But, we have to remember that Colin Baker was just following the directions of the show runner/writers.
Good point bringing up Davison in "Castrovalvo"; he didn't make any sense there.
I look forward to your review of"The Two Doctors" my favorite of the 6th Dr. episodes. Second best in my opinion is "Vengeance on Varos".
"Timelash" is horrible though it was fun watching Colin Baker try to keep a straight face and Peri almost getting eaten by the monster.
Keep up the good work!
George Williams The reason I love Caves is what you mentioned. Davidson is my favorite classic doctor, and he just had his 4 longtime companions leave, and now this new one shows up, and he halfheartedly brings her along. Then after the whole mess, and he's crashing to the planet "I brought Peri into this, and I have to get her out of it" (Or something along the lines). He died for a girl he barely got the chance to know, kind of like 10 dying for Wilf, but he knew him better.
I'd actually rate it like a six and a half out of 10 I liked Azmael's character that's why. Mestor take him or leave him. But Maurice Denham gave a very good performance as Azmael. Him and Colin had great chemistry in their scenes together.
Colin Baker sucked on tv, but does a terrific job in the audio adventures. That's where you see what he can REALLY do. Better companions, better writing, a more fitting portrayal.
he's brilliant on tv
@@tost6956 Agreed. Colin makes a superb Doctor on TV. He has to work with some mediocre writing material at times but I'll never get the hate some "fans" have for him.
Exactly! It's not that bad at all! The first episode may have been extremely wonky and disjointed but as things go on everything comes together and I honestly find myself enjoying the episode every single time I watch it. Yes, the big slug guy may have been goofy and silly, but in my opinion the Doctor is worth it all. He is just so much fun in this episode and I'd honestly rank it as one of my top 5 favourite 6th Doctor stories. I really don't get why people dislike this portrayal of the character. Yeah, he can be a coward and a liar and a strangler from time to time but honestly that does not detract from my enjoyment of watching him be silly and funny.
Besides, knowing what he has been up to this point and what he's gonna be like afterwards, we all realise that this is just a phase, just like his extreme humanity during the 10th Doctor era. He's simply showing us an extreme side of his personality and that's fine in my opinion. Everyone has these phases and we've got to find at least some good in them and to me that good is the Doctor's snarkiness and jerkhood.
Then again, maybe I'm just really weird. I seem to be one of the few people who actually enjoys the Doctor when he's snarky and stuck-up.
Might I suggest you do a review of serials like Logopolis or Planet of Fire (two of my favourites).
Logopolis I’ve seen and I want to do ones that are new to me first. But Planet of Fire I’ll get to eventually.
Okay, thanks!
Thank you for this review, the twin dilemma gets alot of stick in dr who magazine etc and I swear its just a reputation and alot of people who talk shit about it have never even seen it........the same about Colin Baker Doctor.....most people are happy to bad mouth him without hardly seeing any of his episodes
Now watch Attack of the Cybermen.......i do enjoy that one
One of the reasons I started listening to Bigfinish audio productions. Was to get good Colin Baker doctor storys and I was not disappointed.
Thing is, the post regeneration issues always end at the end of the story. But the end of this story, and Colin Baker still plays the Doctor as an asshole. "I'm the Doctor, whether you like it or not!"
And, well, there's less tolerance for being an asshole in general. People tolerate forgetfulness or weird outbursts or emotion changes and other stuff that feels like something that might happen. But smug assholery? It's hard to see as something that it intended to be temporary.
Throw in the awful acting of the twins, far worse than the other guest stars because they literally can't act, and the bad effects, and of course this is a hated episode.
I mean, seriously. They actually trolled the audience at the end of the episode, trying to piss them off. It's not a surprise at all that they succeeded.
I’m a Classic Who fan who loves The Power of Kroll and thinks it’s pretty good. I think Kroll’s better than this one, but I certainly agree with you that The Twin Dilemma gets way too much hate. I quite enjoyed it.
The quality of different Classic Who stories hinges on the script and the performances.
Forget bad special effects and wobbly sets - you need to judge the stories based on other metrics to be able to start ranking them the way classic who fans do.
A good script, or good Dr, or good guest characters can elevate even the worst stories to be at least watchable - Colin Bakers era had these elements in short supply were as Tom Bakers run had these to spare.
What is up with the Audio on this
If you mean the speed, I don’t know. A small number of viewers have had that problem on playback and I haven’t been able to figure out why.
I can only speak for myself, but this is my impression of the story, which I admittedly saw many years ago: yes, the sixth Doctor doesn't get on well with Peri in any of his stories, is arrogant in most of his stories, has a pretentious way of speaking in all of his stories, is emotionally unstable in most of his stories and was a little violent in most of his stories, but he is worse in "The Twin Dilemma". He crossed a line. How am I expected to like the Doctor when he strangles his companion? Or why he freaks out because he's too much of a coward to do what needs to be done? I get that it's a post-regeneration story, but the Doctor at least has to be likable. Plus, Colin Baker's permanence was awful. I get that he wasn't given good material to work with, but he overacts constantly.
There are some big plot holes. For example, a guy with a gun (I can't recall his name because it's been such a long time since I last saw this) gets into the TARDIS and threatens the Doctor and Peri. They manage to knock him out and hide his gun in the TARDIS, which is huge. Then, when he wakes up, it's in the first place he looks. How did he know?
There's some overly-complex time-travel stuff at the end of part two, which lots of fans won't let Steven Moffat get away with in modern stories. Why let this story get away with it?
There are some aliens which look like birds (again, remember that it's been a few years since I last saw this), which, despite their appearance, are actually interesting as an alien race. Then the story wastes them by doing nothing interesting with them. Some of the acting is awful from the guest actors. Speaking of which, the woodenly-acted twins themselves are too annoying for me to care less if the Doctor rescues them or not. In fact I hoped he wouldn't.
Finally, it's dull. I could forgive the rest if it was interesting, but it's actually really dull.
I'm not saying "The Power of Kroll" (Sorry if I've spent that wrong) isn't awful. It is, but I felt this was worse. I don't care about bad costume design, or wonky sets. They're part of the series' charm. It's the other stuff that irritates me.
Add the fact that The Twin Dilemma is Season 21's finale, and fans have to wait for 9 months with that dumpster fire in their minds!
I've been looking through these, and I feel like this is the first one that I totally disagree with Vera on virtually everything they said!
I did watch this one at the time, and I can remember my feeling of incredible disappointment and shock after I saw this episode. I think what doesn't help it is coming after the excellent Caves of Androzani. But then, I'm actually relatively fond of series 22, Colin Baker's only proper full season before backdoor shenanigans nearly got the show cancelled.
I know what Vera means by ragging on that last line "I'm the Doctor, whether you like it or not" It is a kind of two fingers to the audience. But for me, the way Colin Baker *delievered* that line, with a twinkle in his eye, and a bit of a smile on his face - it actually came across to me as reassuring - the context is that he was reassuring Peri after all his post-regeneration ups and downs - and for me, at the time, it reassured me too - it was kind of like "I know this has been a bumpy ride, but it's going to be alright, I'm going to get better" (which, as I understand it, *was* JNT's wizard wheeze idea for the 6th Doctor - a kind of "wouldn't it be great if we made a Doctor who was actively nasty at first but then mellowed over the course of time").
So, the thing that she hated was to me good, but for everything else, I *did* feel like this show was actively bad, not just kinda meh. I actually think Time and the Rani was worse than this one (although with some pretty cool new computer effects), and again, because it was a post regeneration episode that's bad.
And then, since I actually have a deal of affection for Power of Kroll, I can't accept that as a counterexample of a show that was clearly worse than this one! I guess I disagree about the varied performance of the guest cast, because in Kroll we had Philip Madoc, who is one of my favourite Doctor Who guest stars, basically, all the white colonial characters were great performances in that, but all the green-skinned alien native characters were badly played and weak, and those costumes were ridiculous. (which kinda sounds like I agree - I guess I'm giving it a pass because I felt like the good guest performances in Kroll were *really* good, and I feel like I can overlook the weakness of the natives as character and concept in that show, because I like everything else in it more)
Great story, really challenges the audience and Peri to understand the Doctor's internal crisis. Relates to what it's like when a loved one suffers temporary mental illness issues. The monsters are naff, however.
9:32 I think that is a beautiful summary. While Colin Baker is evidently not the greatest actor that ever walked this Earth he was essentially just doing his job, and if his task was to portray an unlikeable character then he did it well. It was the fact that he was forced to play an unlikeable character that is the problem.
This episode is the worst for one reason only: We get to see an evil Doctor trying to kill his companion. Deal breaker right there.
Some of the acting in this was truly spectacularly bad.
As a Colin Baker fan, I know it's not great, but I admire the ambition with every that is done with the Doctor and Peri and taking risks, it's sadly not given the focus it deserves, it's a frustrating mix if wishing to have substantial character drama but not fully committing to it, combine with every outside of Colin and Nicola is underwhelming.
it really isn't bad
Sad to see that some fans have no sense of irony or humour.
When people talk about Twin Dilemma, the “ I am the Doctor... whether you like it or not!” Speech is always at the tip of their tongue. I feel that that line rubbed the fan base the wrong. Add the how poor quality the rest of this episode, I can see the fan view this an insult.
well fandom is renowned for being extremely sensitive
@@tost6956 this comment is true today
@@alexinabox6931 However today, the fandom's quarrels with the show do in fact make sense.
@@tost6956 ??? Have you seen some of the ridiculous sensitivity against series 11?
@@alexinabox6931 Well if you mean sensitivity as in the paranoia among certain sections of fandom online who moan about political correctness then I would see what you mean, but my point was that the show at the moment is nonetheless poor in nearly every respect and has been since at least 2012.
I don't know if it's too much big finish, I'm too lenient or just Stockholm syndrome but I actually don't mind the 6th Doctor's era. In fact I can point some stories that are actually quite good the 2 doctor (that's mostly down to Troughton though), vengeance on varos especially if you're looking for a good slug alien and he's a lot nicer in his second season ie: trial of a time lord. Is the era perfect no, not by a long stretch but it never gets as bad as say sleep no more.
I like this serial because of the STORY, and Mestor's angry voice. And the reason the Doctor was half-insane was that he was still suffering from spectrox toxaemia.
Like I'm Irish and I find Billie Piper and 12 hard to understand sometimes 😊
I know you said Colin is your least favorite Doctor (he's my favorite, but that's beside the point), but I'd be interested to see what your thoughts are on "Vengeance on Varos," which is regarded as the best episode of the Colin Baker era.
Also, there's a coincidence to me seeing this. "The Twin Dilemma" and "Time Lash," are considered the two worst episodes in all of Doctor Who (classic series, new series, audio, all of Doctor Who). And I'm about to expose myself to "Time Lash" (mostly out of a desire to get some more Classic Who DVDs because the US copies are going out of print)
+Sir Jedi Sentinel That's kinda funny. I am a huge fan of Colin Baker's era (maybe not as much as Capaldi's or Pertwee's, but still) and I find that the two of the episodes that are most hated in that era (and in the history of the show), that is, the Twin Dilemma and Time Lash, are actually pretty enjoyable to me. I would've liked for a few things to be different in those episodes for me to call them really great but I still enjoy them much more than I'd enjoyed, say, Terminus or The Curse of Fenric or The Face of Evil.
So basically what I'm trying to say is, if you liked the Twin Dilemma you may also find that Time Lash is not insufferable. Hopefully you'll even enjoy it, at least a little bit!
Timelash has some silly bits to be sure... but I really liked that one. The conceit of who "Herbert" is, and Paul Darrow chewing scenery are high points. The hand-puppet villain isn't in it enough to detract as much as people say either.
I think a lot of the hate comes from the "I'm the Doctor whether you like it or not" line. People were left hanging with that for such a long time and that is gonna cause people to be extremely bitter and hateful.
This, for me, was when Dr. Who started to really, badly go downhill. I started watching Who when I was kid and saw the tail end of Pertwee, but grew up with Tom Baker. That said I did like Peter Davidson as the Doctor and actually liked Castrovalva. He just played an unsure, forgetful, but never nasty form of the Doctor as his regeneration settled. From the get go where Baker tries to strangle Peri I hated that character and that to me both surprised and saddened me terribly. The BBC had no idea what to do with Who after Davidson left and that continued till they ended it after Sylvester McCoy. The stories got worse, the acting was questionable and the whole air around it felt haphazard and desperate like they just didn't care and could use dropping viewing figures that they had caused as reason to can the show. I read once that Baker had wanted the Doctor's new outfit to be all black silks etc to show his darker side but that the producer went with the weird odd coloured outfit instead. I wonder if the clothes reflected the fractured state of Who behind the scenes as much as the character in front of the camera.
It seemed kind of disrespectful of fivey, which I did not like. But I think it's funny how sixie is like the first doctor to look into a mirror and is like "nice". The others before him where more like "oh no". You are right the episode is not that bad. I liked the stuff with the other time lord dying on six in the end. That somehow touched me.
i might regenerate... i don't know... feels different this time.
Nice video! I haven't gotten to see any Colin Baker stories yet, but I knew this was supposedly the worst of them.
I did a video on my channel, the most recent one, about the problems any time a the Doctor regenerates, if you would like to see it. I'd also like to hear your opinions on it also, please.
I’ve only recently dived into Classic Who, and this one really isn’t the worst one. That honor still falls to Paradise Towers for me. I think the main two reasons why this is so hated is the change over is that is came right after a very wonderful story and while this isn’t the worst, the quality does plummet. And of course the obvious one of the 6th Doctor being extremely unlikable in his first story, really hurt this one. Now luckily for me, I’ve been jumping around the entire series and have seen later better Colin Bakers episodes where he fares a lot better so it didn’t make me hate him. But if that was the first time I ever saw him, then I would have hated his guts.
My pick for the worst story of Classic Doctor Who is Time and the Rani.
i do admit that isn't a good story
Regardless of the circumstances surrounding Time and the Rani there was no effort thrown into it.
It’s my favourite episofe
I actually enjoy that one, it has issues of course, but i like it.
Time Flight for me. Jesus.
Having seen almost all of Classic Who at least once or twice, I can't understand this things reputation.
It has to be the whole "end of the season"/1st impression from when it originally aired combined with some ppl copying opinions rather than forming an own opinion...
Still it's not fair to judge TD or even Colin solely based on that!
I feel like there's 3 types of Who:
1. FANTASTIC!
2. enjoyably stupid/'so bad it's good'
3. bad (boring/filler)
I'd say TD is in the 2nd category!
And yes, Kroll would be more a story of the 3rd type imho!
I like some parts of it (Kroll design, Mary Tamm, Tom Baker, some guest stars) but the story is a boring snooze fest of a filler.
Twin Dilemma on the other hand:
Some designs are meh,
the Twins are worse than Adric when he was with 4 but better than when he became the annoying companion of 5,
the ...\*ahem* dynamic between 6 & Peri in this is really horrible (but becomes so much better in later stories),
BUT
*Colin Baker is an absolute delight!*
Yes, he could've been way better (big finish!!!) if he would've had a fair chance...
JNT, Michael Grade and others involved are what made this era and incarnation worse than it could've been.
Still, if you watch Attack of the Cybermen, Vengeance on Varos, The Two Doctors or even this: You CAN see the greatness of Colin shimmer through!
He deserved better.
Many are critical of classic doctor who, however not many actually say how given the same they could have changed it to make it the best it could be. 😊 i love classic who especially the twin dilemma
I think what some people dislike is the unstable/violent Doctor bits. It never bothered me. In fact I thought it was all interesting. People also disliked the lisping twins who were cast only because they were the only identical twins they could find rather than how good their acting was.
I agree. It's absurdly underrated. Its not good to be sure... but its not nearly as bad as some pretend
Why is it x10 speed? I can’t understand anything because it’s so fast and high pitched.
I’m not sure. You’re the second person to say that. I played it back and it happened once for no reason I can determine but when I closed out and played it again it was fine and the original file isn’t like that.
Jœßhëēp it might help if you set the playback speed as low as it gets
that happened to me on mobile too... really strange. works fine on desktop though.
Yeah this happens to me and reducing the playback speed doesn't do much: I'll watch this later on computer though
This story has one of the worst exchanges in the history of the show in my opinion.
MESTOR: Azmael is now my slave.
DOCTOR: That's not fair. He's an old man.
Apparently slavery would be fine if he was younger!
I think that most people don’t remember the main bulk of the twin dilemma which is just semi-standard bad. Really, if it fell under different circumstances or was placed differently, it would just be in the “bad” tier, but the main issue is that this is how the Sixth Doctor was introduced.
While it’s pretty obvious in hindsight that he was supposed to get better over time (including that he gets a bit better by the end of this story), it rubs people particularly hard that this is a really rough start for a new doctor, especially since Davison was still so fresh in everyone’s minds.
6 patronizes 5, which makes people automatically defensive. He is also manic, delusional and egotistical. And the main part that people remember is that he tries to choke his companion Peri to death just after getting his new (decidedly very divisive) costume. While it can be chocked up to regenerative wackiness, it is so out of character for the Doctor, that it just feels like character assassination and new actor sabotage. It’s really not a good sign that the main plot of a slug forcing Adric-like twins to do maths is so forgettable, but I digress.
I’d like to go on to say that I love Colin Baker and he did go on to make great, timeless stories, like Vengeance on Varos and many stories with Big Finish. Overall, he’s one of my very favorite actors to play the Doctor across different media, but he got dealt a rough hand to start with.
Honestly I feel like the big problem with the writing for 6 is that the writers seemed to genuinely loath Peri and enjoyed traumatizing her at every possible chance and 6 was unfortunate enough to be the vehicle for that.
@@CouncilofGeeks I agree. I was just talking to my brother last week about how much the writers seemed to love torturing Peri.
In Big Finish, it’s better.
It’s like watching a review from a chipmunk. The sound is going at twice the speed of the picture for me. I’ve watched on my phone and iPad and it’s the same problem.
It’s really weird. A minority of folks are having this problem. I recreated it once but couldn’t repeat it.
Council of Geeks Weird. I can’t get it to play without it doing it. It’s annoying as I really want to watch it. Love your videos.
hi
The choking scene doesn't bug me and the outlandish costume is a symptom of a bad regeneration.
I think you answered your own question on why it's so poorly regarded : it was a window on the new Doctor, and it didn't work. Plus, the show didn't have a second Colin Baker story right away to mitigate this godawful first impression.
Going into the episode, knowing that the fandom feels about the episode and Colin Baker, I like his Doctor more than Peter Capaldi, who for his first two seasons he sucked as the Doctor, while Colin I could believe his performance with Peri then 12 with Clara, but for some reason people like Capaldi while they dislike Baker? Ftw?
I started watching Dr Who during Tom Bakers run, kept watching Peter Davidson Era. Watched The first Collin Baker episode, and didn't watch Doctor Who again until the new error reboot. I hates it that much.
The Twin Dilemma was interesting and that's about it. It wasn't particularly awful or, at least, I didn't think so. I think the sixth doctor is the most violent out of all the classic series doctors and that threw people a little. I know choking Peri was something he did out of regeneration stress, but he flat up murders in later episodes - Shockeye from The Two Doctors being a good example - and that's something he hadn't really done before. The Sixth Doctor stories copped a lot of flack from viewers for whom the violence just didn't sit well.
It's just a funny and campy story. That's the end of it.
I agree with the whole idea that they shouldn't force people to accept the new Doctor that way... I for example didn't even like the lighter approach to the subject that Deep Breath had.. With the whole Elevent phone call to Clara. That was basically Moffat telling fans "hey, I know Capaldi is old and grumpy and it's not Matt but could you still watch the series, please?" and that was such a bad move in my opinion. It pretty much treated Twelve like something you were stuck with after Matt Smith and it certainly didn't have to be that way... Expecially since in my opinion in the end Capaldi became one of the best incarnations of the character and his era one of the best in the series.. At least for new Who.
Yeah, completely agree. Putting Eleven in Deep Breath undercuts Capaldi from the start. Terrible move! I do think overall that episode does a better job of getting you used to a more-abrasive Doctor and saying you'll learn to love him (but no hugging!).
Hi
I've seen this, and it was bad. The Doctor should never choke their companion, post regenerative trauma or not. The thinking was to start the Doctor off as a sinister, almost antagonistic figure who gradually became heroic as time went on, but that was a bad idea. No one wanted a morally ambiguous Doctor this late in the series. And that outfit--! Jodie's outfit is not that great in my opinion, but Colin's was a nightmare that even he didn't like all that much. Poor Colin was not best served by this episode, or most of the ones that followed: thank God that Big Finish is finally giving his Doctor his due.
The worst problem of this episode is that it was aired at the end of the 21st season. People were stuck with this impression of the Doctor for 9 months or something. That hurt the show, in the big picture, incredibly.
Ok fair, but that doesn’t account for the hate from any fans who didn’t see it on its original airing.
Oh, I agree with that. I don't consider The Twin Dilemma that bad myself (though I rate all Colin's episodes higher because I adore his performance as the Sixth Doctor). But most people don't rate episodes on an individual fair basis, they are influenced by some form of context of both the Doctor's era and the show as a whole (for example the general stereotypical opinion that Six was a horrible Doctor). The amount of reviews and lists that do this and list the Twin Dilemma as the worst episode of all time feed into the general awareness of people who will say (even though they perhaps never even saw the episode) that it is, in fact, the worst episode.
In my opinion, the bad part is when the doctor regenerates and promptly chokes Peri -- this was very uncomfortable and doesn't get adequately addressed. He also looks like a clown. To me it was the bad start for what was ultimately the least likable Doctor.
Here's an excellent review of Colin Bakers time on Doctor Who (actually all the classic Doctor's are reviewed) they don't come out too frequent but all worth watching only up to number 6
ua-cam.com/video/HfPVz2eCktw/v-deo.html
Honestly, I never understood the hate for Colin Baker’s Sixth Doctor. Is it the outfit, the performance, or the personality?
It is down to the fans' inability to form their own opinions.
Do you know what? I think New Earth is worse than this.
it's a trillion times worse than this
KingofPotatoPeople I doubt it. New Earth is bad but nothing terrible. It hasn't got anywhere near the bad reputation either.
MrAzmatMahmood I don't doubt it because it's my opinion. And I think Twin Dilemma is better than New Earth - reputation and popular opinion don't matter a jot. If you prefer New Earth fair enough, opinion is subjective. But I find myself wincing through that story much more than this one (with all its admittedly many flaws).
KingofPotatoPeople It's funny how everyone expresses their opinion on here as much as they want, but the second someone replies back with a different one they get all defensive.
MrAzmatMahmood Please read posts before typing. I don’t need to be defensive. Neither do you. It’s an opinion about a TV show. My opinion is that New Earth is worse than Twin Dilemma. Yours may be - from what I gather from this bizarre comment you have made - that you want to have babies with New Earth. I can live with your opinion......why can’t you live with mine? At the end of the day it doesn’t actually matter as watching television programmes is a frivolous activity and one day we all be dead. Why not sit down, loosen your belt and relax watching your favourite episode New Earth, safe in the knowledge that other people regard it better than another story, if you feel that kind of validation helps. To be honest I give zero fucks about your opinion on Doctor Who and you need to have the same amount of fucks about mine. Please do something else now.
It isn`t THAT bad to deserve bottom place in rankings, there are a few 80s stories that are below this, but it is still bad, especially the writing of the 6th Doctor, but luckily Season 22/23 improved on that writing
I really Like The Twin Dilemma, mestor is a great villian
I never understood the hate on this episode. Glad you brought one of Tom Baker's episodes up as well. A lot of people's problems with it they blatantly ignore in other episodes. Personally i don't mind it, the wobbly sets take me out of it a bit, but all in all I still had fun with it.
it is indeed fun!
I actually agree with you. It’s not the worse story . It’s a lot better then series 11 new who.