I tend to feel like what we're seeing here is a frustration with atheism among young men specifically. And in their frustration, they're _trying_ to find their way towards God, but they're viewing the faith through the warped lens of entertainment, which was ultimately their previous god when they were atheists. I do believe they _are_ trying their best, but we have to be vigilant and set good examples ourselves for them to follow.
To the comments hating on Americans, let's not single out Western converts for scapegoating. Every convert from every culture has their baggage. African converts, for example, have issues letting go of their tribal practices. Even a lot of cradles in Russia, Greece don't take the faith seriously and treat it as just a facet of their culture.
As a Greek Orthodox, we do the faith far better than other people; we treat Christianity as a process rather than a point of absolution, with the Church being the gas stop to help us on our journey.
Catechesis involves a lot of correction. Especially for converts who are coming from a very materialistic and emotion driven version of spirituality into Holy Orthodoxy.
One thing common in Orthodox online circles that's outrageous is meme depictions of Christ. Also, mixing holy icons with secular music montages to pump people up like they're going to the gym.
I must admit, the atheistic of that mixed with slowed or sped up chants is probably what sparked my intrest in orthodoxy, but after ya know, actually listening to orthodox Christians and priests it became clear that the whole gym bro cool edit thing isn't the orthodox life
@@kaisercollins3097 Of course, but you missed the other half. It's background music played behind a montage of different Orthodox icons, Saints, etc., in order to pump people up and to look cool. So many people, almost exclusively on the internet, claim to be Orthodox just because it is "based" or "alpha" and aren't even baptized members. This is such a big deal because it leads people to venture into certain areas that they have no authority to be in. I see so many children who claim to be Orthodox online (Who've never even been inside an Orthodox church) just because they were influenced by edits. I've seen videos of kids (Pre-pubescents who have barely experienced life) claiming to be/vowing to be monks when they grow up, just because they were influenced by edits. Another thing I've noticed is the amount of children who like to engage in crappy apologetics online. I've seen too many videos of little kids arrogantly challenging Muslims, Protestants, and Catholics, to debates as if they became Bruce Lee of Apologetics overnight. They spend all their time decrying heresies that they don't even understand and making 30 page slideshows full of straw-mans. They should be focused on God, but next to that, they should be focused on being kids. The radical TikTok Orthobro community (Which is also on other platforms aside from TikTok) is harmful to Orthodoxy and it is a cancer to the youth.
I think the warhammer × orthodoxy stuff is common at the moment because ortho converts nowadays are typically teenage men or young adult men and warhammer is very popular amoung these age groups. It's very common then to combine your interests, couple that with convertitis and voila: you have warhammer ortholarp
As a young guy who tries to become Orthodox, I’ve gotta say this is true for me ! A lot of time, I only use my faith for « based » or « chad » and forgetting the Jesus’s part. Again it has to do with pride, a sin I have a very difficult time to deal with ! But again, it will take time to get rid of this sin and it will take time for me to be humble and to accept Christ in my heart, please pray for me brothers and sisters ! ☦️
I will try, the only problem is that I live in a country where being Orthodox is a minority and to find an Orthodox Church I have to take 30 minutes to 1 hour from where I live to find one !
@@mement0_m0ri Capcut is a video editing app. They'll take icons or video from a Liturgy and put effects and stuff over it. Then they'll set it to phonk music.
@mement0_m0ri CapCut is a video editing app, and phonk is a stupid genre of music that is basically if you ran EDM through an low power 90's speaker It's super cringe and tbh the people who make them just want to act like they're better than others I've noticed
(Not Orthodox (Protestant) so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt) The problem with OrthoLARPers is the fact that it seems that they convert to Orthodoxy not for the sake of Orthodoxy but for other reasons such as: -Wanting to rebel against progressive theology in Protestantism -Wanting to rebel against Vatican II Catholicism -They think the Orthodox aesthetic looks cool -They think it's "based" Or a mix of these things.
I doubt that many are even converts in the true sense, they may claim to be Orthodox but I highly doubt they are attending Divine Liturgy or Catechism classes. Until they are Catechized, Baptized, or Christimated, actually being apart of the Church, they are not Orthodox.
It reminds me of wisdom you shared at the end of your “Bad Reasons to Convert” video from long ago that popped in my head which is “Convert for wrong reasons, Stay for Christ.”
Perfect video, Bojan. I'm afraid most of the recent converts to Orthodoxy view it as some sort of right wing military religion, and they seem to want to associate themselves more with the Church on political grounds than with Christ. I'm a recent convert myself (2022) and sadly some people have called me "based" because of that, even with the best of intentions, and I can't help but feel a little sad. I think types like orthodox meme squad and orthodox kyle are part of the problem. They're promoting an aesthetics of which Orthodoxy is part. Maybe that'll be good in the long run, and the hordes of young men that convert out of military desire end up having their hearts set on fire out of love and faith. But for now, it seems to me like they're using Orthodoxy for ulterior (although perhaps unconscious) motives.
I agree. I don’t know if it is good long term though if there is an importing of the Protestant fundamentalist/rigorist phronema. This is especially felt with the extremely vocal convert priests sharing their opinions on UA-cam and speaking for Orthodoxy in many online forums, and even bishops with corrective baptism norms and such.
The slippery slope of LARP-ing Christians is a real thing. I'm a Catholic myself and I know a person who was a Catholic who left the Church because of "clown Mass" type arguments spread around, and because of people rage-baiting with pictures of liberal churches in Germany doing illicit things (very similar to what Kyle presents in his videos against Catholicism). After going through his LTM traditionalist phase, he became a sedevacantist and then an Eastern Orthodox - now you might think i'ts not a slippery slope since he became an orthodox but of course, because these people are carried by the winds of controversies and gossip and what is trendy and based rather than being firmly rooted in the teachings of their tradition, sacramental life of the Church and prayer, he ended up leaving Eastern Orthodoxy as well as the grass was not greener on the other side when it comes to controversies or being able to refute every argument presented to you in polemics. Now, he is just a quasi stay-at-home discord Christian who is into philosophy and debating. This shallow online catechesis that comes from following online figures, and basing your faith on who can win most debates is horrible and very worrisome.
I would remove Orthodox Kyle from the list of Orthobros. He's one of the furthest from the Orthobro type since he actually takes the faith seriously, attends church regularly, got married in the church, and is now moving away from content creation to focus on being a good husband.
Like warhammer 40k is a dystopia controlled by superstition, war and rage: it's like the opposite of what jesus wishes for. Like one of the things a lot of martyrs got killed for was because they refused to enter the roman army. Christ is truth, not superstition. Christ is peace and love, not war and hate.
40k is a tale of how in order to defy the divine, a powerful mage created an atheist empire, that then became refounded on a false religion worshipping that mage now turned lich... It is a tale of how fanaticism of the emperor made his sons turn to demons, for no other options, after religion was ruined, a tale of hipocricy, of lies, of tyranny... I can't believe anyone sees any "good guys" in that setting...
@@TheAtlarchy thats the whole point in 40k everyone is the bad guy only 2 can be seen as even mildly good ant that's the salamander legion the only legion to truly cares about civilion life and the tyranid bugs who are just instinct driven
@@TheAtlarchy well, that very surfaced idea of what point of wharhammer is. I think Idea of Emperor was to destroy all other religions and chaotic cults to fill the gap and become God himself. Otherwise, he would have refused to help those who pray to him. But whatever, that discussion for fans. But I love Warhammer not for that, but for how inspiring characters are. This series is all about pathos, defiance, and indomitable human spirit. There are billions of men, but they are all stronger then many of us. There are many good guys, not in Christian virtue, but Illiadic. I don't aspire to purge xenos just because they breathe, but I do aspire to hold the palace at Istvann III, still knowing that battle is lost. Or defiantly march to certain doom knowing that my death will only hold demons for half an hour.
@@TheAtlarchy Loken Garvy is a good guy, Saul Tarviz is, ordinary guardsman sacrificing his life for humanity and Emperor is. Although maybe the universe is not about the good guys, but about the strong guys, mentally strong I mean.
It is definitely an issue. I am not Orthodox yet, although I hope to be. It really hurts to see other people suffer because of these larpers. I mean no harm to anyone. Thank you, Bojan. I like watching your channel; you were the first Orthodox channel I found and watched. Your insight has really helped me. So many priests talk about how harmful it is.
I can't stand to be on any Orthodox discord server anymore, a lot of the people that frequent them are constantly being over critical of more relaxed Orthodox or how based Russia and Putin are. I wanted to make some Orthodox friends but there was no way that I would be involved in the "based" "trad" ideology.
For sure. It's one of the worst online communities. I am also in the carnivore diet community which is also extremely narrow minded and toxic, people are constantly scolding others (especially beginners) for not being "pure enough" or for not getting some minor detail right, and it's honestly the same in the online orthodox community.
Just stick to your rl orthodox friends in your parish. I noticed they're a lot more mature and enjoyable to be around irl than the online community for the most part. Online in general usually tends to bring out the oddest in people.
The only way to fight this is to spend less time on social media. If you live close to other orthodox Christians, find some time to hang out, if you have problems with loneliness or are distanced, spend time in prayer.
It’s one thing to be entertained by Warhammer, but we cannot incorporate it into the faith. A lot of convert boys in America have all these dreams and fantasies surrounding Orthodoxy, but none of them sit next to the Syrian grandma during coffee hour. None of them show up to clean up day at the church. None of them keep a prayer rule or fast seriously. They don’t show up for vespers or Orthros. Yet they dream about being priests. A lot of this is caused by main character syndrome. And they fail to see that Christ is the writer, main-character and the story itself. We need to teach these men the simple faith. Giving what they have to the poor, praying and fasting. Struggling not to sin and ultimately failing only to try again. And reading the Bible and lives of the Saints before we concern ourselves with reading councils and theological mysteries. That’s how we make the faith our own.
From what I've seen most of these types of orthodox are genuinely fanatical, they are just really big 40k fans. I guess I'm not on twitter so I don't see quite as much larp, what I do see is people who put an extreme weight on the aesthetics of those mundane aspects and practices of discipline you were talking about. They don't exactly get the opportunity to fight space aliens after all. This might also be why the inspiration is most open within the context of war, at least other than memes and imagery, 40k inspired orthodox otherwise looks like a love of gothic (which among western converts is easy to confuse with Catholic cultural background) and entirely too many candles in the prayer corner. The rest will be internal, like thinking of demonettes rather than succubuses in their demonology. The religion of 40k doesn't have much content, it's most cool factor, but it was highly influential during a formative period in many men's lives, and it was likely the source of the most beauty they saw before they entered the church as the aesthetics are on point, which you certainly can't say about the modern world (unless you are in a museum or among older buildings). Let's not forget that the Rus converted for beauty rather than theology and that has not stopped them from becoming a centre of orthodox life and learning. As for why the imperium is admired it is because they fight evil rather than redefining it (and it is evil, it is against humanity), it's really quite simple, men like masculine things and the imperium is masculine. 40k fans mostly don't admire the emperor, he is an open joke among the fans for being a terrible dad and reddit atheist, being British a lot of 40k is somewhat tongue in cheek. On the point of force the willingness to use it to defend yourself is correct, Russia is such a militarized culture because they had centuries of threat from the tartars, they would not exist otherwise. The Byzantines also had a highly militarized Christianity (in both the monasteries maintained and funded military forces for state use). However I have noticed that many orthodox converts are very into the Crusading spirit of medieval Catholicism, and in all probability were disappointed in the past to find that even the Latin Catholics aren't very medieval, so got into the orthodox equivalents, which of course aren't really the same thing, orthodoxy always being much more centralised in the obligations around force and power. You might also remember that different things are mixed in, westerners are latinised germanics, we have a long history of aristocracy and essentially a tribal view of freedoms and social structures which the Catholic Church utterly transformed with centuries of social engineering, we come from a deep cultural and social background and you can't expect people to just pick up the attitudes of easterners, under the surface there are very different social structures and ways of thinking, and many of these aspects likely won't change, those who convert will likely keep many cultural elements from the west, personally I would focus on getting rid of the progressivism rather than the bellicosity and love of overly rigid logical systems. Personally I feel this is all a bit much ado about nothing.
Very much agreed my friend. I never hear ethnos brought into a conversation such as this. The Church comes to a people, with all the baggage that entails. Veering too far right may seem to miss the mark but not quite as badly as veering so far left that we extinguish ourselves.
“As for why the imperium is admired it is because they fight evil rather than redefining it (and it is evil, it is against humanity)” You don’t consider servortisation and infant incinerators to be evil? Also what about the genocide of peaceful species?
All human states removed from God are imperfect, the Imperium is obviously a totalitarian state, but they are also the reason humanity is still in existence within the setting. Just as communists may be evil but are still better than an even more virulent destructive force like the eco-zelots. Though the Chinese legalists might be much more of a comparison, ultimately they were a positive force even if the first emperor was one of the worst tyrants in history, while it would be excessive to attribute anything positive to the communists at all, as they destroy societies at human cost rather than build them.
I'm very glad you've recognized the Ortholarp issue. Western converts are a major issue. They are not being told to shut up and learn for a few years before teaching and spouting their mouths.
Western Converts are a major issue, huh ? Interesting way you used to say that. You could have said the behavior of some Western Converts is an issue, or a specific group of Western Converts are the issue, but you choose to say Western Converts are the issue. So you think Gods true Church is only for people from the East ?
I've known quite a few western converts, priests and lay people, and none of them are like this. On the contrary, they deserve a great deal of respect for their decision to leave their old lives behind to join the Church - especially from the likes of me, a lukewarm cradle Orthodox who grew up in prideful ignorance. Maybe times are changing as social media is getting baked in so deeply - but let's not use a few bad examples to characterize a whole lot of good people who found Christ and His Church. Glory to God.
There are absolutely zero "based" elements of Warhammer: the God Emperor is literally a fedora-wearing ultraliberal Atheist. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with being a Warhammer fan and putting an Orthobro spin on it. But try not to get lost in your own imagination and trick yourself to believe that things aren't what they are.
That's the point of the setting and the meta-irony. It is depicting the inevitable forces that drive human spirituality towards God - subverted by secular humanism, and leaving a spiritual opening to the demonic to fill the void that only Christ; the core of the final eschaton can fill. The story, the setting, takes on the aesthetics of Christianity, but with the merging of supernatural ideas with Jung, to create a scenario where spirituality is physically inescapable. And the discontents of secular repression lead to a social environment as extreme and akin to that of Russia following the decade after the collapse of the Bolshevik government; chaos, cults, and yet amidst it all; the revival of the Church. I think of the saying "you may not believe in the devils, but the devils certainly believe in you."
@yossarian7617 The novels certainly touch on classical liberal enlightenment themes where man divorces the state from God. And it is very prevelant in the setting that the void created from that secularism leads to a spiritual vacuum towards the demonic. It is quite literally similar to the spiritual vacuum of Russia in the 90s after the collapse of the Soviet state. Yes, it can indeed be interpreted as "that deep." Though I think it's common sense for anyone with basic literary skills. We aren't reading very complex Heideggerian hieroglyphics.
@@Zeal_Faith_Humanity What you're doing is projecting your preferred themes in a fantasy setting whose sole purpose is to sell board games. Any argument you might have that "muh Imperium of Man is ackshually based" falls apart completely when you take in account any of the other factions. Funny how nobody projects political theory themes on the Orks...
@yossarian7617 All you are conveying is your inability to meta-analyze. It is a commonly accepted fact that the novels (not the games) do indeed implement a form of alternative history where secular and state mandated atheism is implemented into society. I don't care if it is written even in a children's book. There is always a presupposed meta-ethics, philosophy, and political philosophy of all sorts in any works. Even children's books have to borrow from the human ethos of history. Nothing escapes ontological factors. It is reductionistic to reality, to assume everything is either the output or input of the mind or projection vs intention, when everything shares a fundamental presupposed reality which shapes it. For instance, we would not have the modern science we know of today, if scholasticism had not been its predecessor. Everything, yes, even the most insignificant things, tell a tale.
I converted from UPCI to EOC via GOARCH & have not gotten used to Orthodox brethren complaining about converts being Zealots. Saint Paul was a major hyper Zealot of a convert and wrote 25% of the New Testament.
To understand what a zealot is, go look at Saint Joseph the Hesychast and the calander zealots. Also read the life of Saint Gregory Palamas as a Hagiorite. The zealots in his day started a civil war, tried to put down hesychism, and tried to let the serbs invade the Byzantine Empire. Zealotry is a radicalization of Orthodoxy. Better yet, just talk to and obey your spiritual Father, lol. That's the cure for zealotry.
True, however there is a healthy balance. Paul still exercised a great deal compassion, patience and wisdom. Zealotry in of itself is not bad but it must be tempered.
The desire for a overbearing ruler is directly proportional to the abdication of resposiblility in the culture. Instead of cringing at the new orthodorks, maybe see where we fell down on the job. Power worship comes from experienced chaos.
That’s right on the mark. I find it odd, however, that people would be attracted to Orthodoxy unless they’ve totally misunderstood it. It seems to be anything but an abdication of responsibility. But I think what keeps people in the LARPing zone is that they don’t actually participate in the Church so they can enjoy all the aesthetics and appreciate the theology in a conceptual way but don’t have to actually be faced with confession.
The worst part of this is that to an outsider *who deliberately has no interest in WH40K* it sounds like they creating amulets without realizing it....
Leviticus 10: 1-2: Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the Lord, contrary to his command. So fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord.
9:20 I have also heard online from a certain "orthobro" UA-camr that we should love our personal enemies *but* hate the enemies of God. My question is, who counts as an enemy of God? Anyone who sins? Anyone who is unrepentant? Anyone going to hell? Blasphemers? I have never heard of this distinction of enemies quite literally anywhere else besides this person.
It is also from a certain saint, also nonsense. God Himself knows of no such distinction. As God Himself was literally murdered by literal enemies of God, He prayed: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
I can only speak from my experience, but my own journey to the church was very nearly derailed by the nonstop oversaturation of "based chad" Ortho memes and yt channels online. Fortunately I managed to push through the nonsense and found my way, but I will always wonder how many people got lost along the way, confused and caught up in imaginings of gigachads burning heretics with eye lasers, etc.
Gotta separate your love of God from your love of fictional men in power armor. Thank you for your videos they made attending a local Church easier and got me through the door.
I’m a big 40k fan and even though I’m an Imperium fan there’s a reason why I don’t like the emperor. 1 he’s like literally like a super mega Reddit atheist antichrist and 2 he is a dead bead and abusive Dad to the primarchs his sons
Great video, thank you! My guess (because I'm not deeply entrenched in the Warhammer 40k lore/games but I've seen/played enough to understand the essence of it) is that many young men, Christian or not, are powerfully attracted to the Warhammer world and specific human factions within it because we live in an increasingly feminized world in which the masculine is often heavily discouraged, and the essence of this Warhammer 40k world, (specifically the factions they resonate with) is very masculine. The factions and heroes, they're basically all deeply flawed (like real life) and should never be fully embraced as any kind of good role model, but there are traditionally masculine traits, actions, words spoken, archetypes, etc that are a breath of fresh air to these men (myself included). Many men have been starved, in some real sense, of their masculinity, and many of the masculine virtues/actions modern society condemns and labels as "toxic", young men intuitively know they need to embrace and embody. And at least some of those masculine virtues/actions/archetypes are present in full force in the world of Warhammer 40k. "In sterquiliniis invenitur" - I doubt Christian men fully embrace any of these factions/characters (are there any fully "good" characters? not sure), but they're taking whatever gold they can gather from the filth, and there certainly is at least some. It's analogous to what the Fathers called "beautifying the church" with "profane knowledge," what we might call secular knowledge today.
I've been into Warhammer for very long, I got into it in an era where we didn't discuss feminism or masculinity. I think people are a bit too inclined to philosophize every aspect or detail of the world, when it's actually quite simple- it's a universe of well designed worlds with cool miniatures and people enjoy painting and playing games. As to the design, there is an unabashed masculine quality to it, but it was not made as a reaction to feminism, just simple enjoyment for it's aesthetic qualities. As to your last point, I fully agree. Take what is good, and magnify it, and when it comes to evil and flawed characters, the universe usually does well to show you how that is manifest. Contrary to what many think (who might not know much about it), everyone in Warhammer know saying FOR THE EMPEROR! is a bit of a joke and yes we all know that he, The Big E, is a flawed guy. That makes the setting interesting because it's a human centered reality and a good reflection on a world without God that nevertheless cannot help but reach towards divinity and goodness in the best way they can despite their flaws, if you're inclined to read it from a Christian perspective. I'm not clutching my pearls over it, because I know it's for fun and there doesn't seem to be anything inherently sinful about it. Unless of course you want to bring your Warhammer models into church.
I find that a lot of people tend to have trouble separating reality from fiction. I am actually appalled that people compare the Emperor with Jesus Christ, because IN LORE the Emperor is a massive Atheist.
Quick correction: There were the Mexican Christeros, who fought for religious freedom to be Catholic under President Plutarco in the 1920s. But there was a big push for real peace, not just "haha christian gun go brrr."
I am Catholic, apart from those cliches on St Ignatius of Loyola and Charlemagne which I think to be a bit poorly managed here, I agree that there is a lot of LARPing in new converts that go for the more traditional circles in both Orthodox and Catholicism. Here in Brazil I see many who seek my religion for its aesthetics and for finding a way to ellaborate on their political views to polemise all the time. It is sad, because to fully convert takes self denial, studying and meditating alone as well as patience with our brethren in moments of difficulty. It is common to see this kind of people treating someone they had never met before as Judas Iscariot for q mild disagreement, while Our Lord instructed us to love everyone. Even at His Passion among his last words on the cross He states "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing". Whenever I meet a new convert, I always try to remind them the essence of the Good News and to be very careful with the beauty of the symbolisms found on the liturgy, its garments, vessels, movements, prayers and chants, because it all can easily become a fuel for pride. Approaching spirituality should be gradual and careful, one may not wish to rush things up, otherwise they might leave the faith as easily as they converted.
This is all growing pains of the Western church. Some guys are clearly learning how to take faith seriously for the first time, and are stumbling because they need to grow up a little.
the seals where created originally to mock Christians now we use that mockery as A tool to glorify God just as we use the very title of Christian. And russian orthodox church creates seals based on 40k is the fault of converts? If so how.
Really refreshing to hear about the importance of the mandaneness of Orthodox spirituality in the online Orthodox sphere and how it prevents apostasy. Too many fall for the cool, the fringe, barely go Church, call for violence & wear Orthodoxy as a pride symbol and even end up worshiping false idols. This is why adoration for fascism and ultra masculinity thrives among many in the convert sphere. It's very spiritually dangerous. "Truly I tell you, I do not know you".
Thank you for being a sober voice and a good representative of the Orthodox Faith. To many new and typically young converts try to modernize and fantasize it, with prayer hopefully they will understand.
American Orthodox converts can treat Orthodoxy as another “identity.” It’s a fad or political pin that they can thump around to show how different they are
I feel really bad now because I’m a massive Warhammer 40k fan ,and also a faithful orthodox Christian. Please tell me if any of my fellow orthodox guys are big fans of the imperium and Warhammer in general.(I like Blood Angels and Black Templars. I’m also gonna be stealing your primarus marines and then just field Eversor Assassins.)
I would like to answer your question regarding why the setting of 40k attracts so many young men. No it is not because of fascism, or paganism. Yes you could argue that paganism is an easy way to classify the setting, but that is an oversimplification. I make the claim the setting is actually a reflection of man's inability to create a true final eschaton in of himself. It is hence (though perhaps not intentionally) an irony depicting the necessity of a final eschaton born from perfect goodness - only found in God. This is of course not found in the setting's heart - the throne of the dead emperor. But the setting screams a yearning for the vanquishing of the disteleology of the universe, the church-like architecture, the aesthetics, the entite imperium just screams of an empire that desires the glory of God but can not find it. Warhammer 40k is a cosmic irony depicting the inescapablity of spirituality and faith. Rather than an outright satire like 'Starship Troopers,' Warhammer 40k is an unapologetic dive into a representation of cosmic Lovecraftian horror, hereclitianism, nihilism, eschatology brotherhood, bravery, and faith in humanity. In the setting prayer, devotion, faith, is not merely optional, it is the line between literal mass-demonic possesion, and portals to hell opening into the world. Faith IS life, faith, IS survival in 40k. In 40k, a prayer is made ten times as extreme as prayer would be in the real world. Every thought, every feeling, goes into a metaphysical dimension called the 'Warp.' It is there where all hope or hopelessness culminates, and manifests into the "real" - likened to how Jung thought of the concious and unconcious, but rather on a collective, supernatural scale of a twist on reality. A prayer in 40k could mean the summoning of saints or of demons. A mere act of cowardice, from a humble guardsmen could usher some demonic entity in the warp, created merely from enough cowardice, or enough lust, or of enough envy, collectively shared in a society. Man's thoughts are heavily consequential in the setting. Hence the saying in 40k: "Blessed are the ignorant." It is no wonder then, that the State is so authoritative about faith it in 40k, a setting where corruption of the mind is so much more a threat, where entire worlds could face demonic corruption. The irony of 40k steps in what seems to be the dead end of man worshipping man. Humanity finds itself in a sort of existential dead end cycle, where in order to survive, they must pray towards a golden throne, upon which lies the decaying corpse of a formerly living Emperor, who was in fact an atheistic humanist. The throne itself is the technological lifeline of not just the decaying Emperor, but for the whole Imperium. A throne on which a man is kept in a state of prepetual undeath for 10,000 years, made a god over a kingdom he wished to be Godless. Now, only empowered by the prayers and sacrifices made to him by untold trillions of human beings. It is... poetic, in the sense that we see the futility of the atheistic attitude in such a setting. It reminds me of the famously said truth, that the greatest trick the devil has ever played on man, is for man to not believe in God. And poetic in the other sense, that the distelological and lack of true eschatological state of the imperium itself, is a reflection of the discontents of secularism, humanism, and classical liberalism itself becoming a replacement, of the true eschaton, that being, the Son of God himself, untainted by death itself. The Emperor, is, and always will be for me, a reminder, that a true final eschaton, functions only with the 'Alpha' and 'Omega;' the Son of God. "God is life," then takes on a true telological meaning. The Emperor is, indeed, a reflection of a "messiah," which can provide no true or permanent salvation for the effects of the fall itself on the universe: death and sin, as he himself is a being of undeath. The saying in Warhammer "there is only war" is a proclamation of the unending disteleology not only of war, but of the fallen reality itself born of man's fall, the unending distelological reality which man can not truly escape in the fallen universe, apart from the only true telos, which is indeed, in Christ, the Son, God made man, in the flesh.
Being an American convert I can say 💯 we ruin everything. Or at least give our best effort. Because like anything else Americans do, we are *obviously the best* ‘at being an Orthodox Christian’. Likely at some point you will see a big push by cyber-doxy to ‘improve’ the Orthodox Church. God bless and pray for us. And forgive us. Cuz man. Yea. lol ☦️❤️
@@simulationbros no one is ‘attacking’ western converts. It’s a critique and a very earned one. Some of the most ridiculous people I’ve encountered on here claim to be the same Orthodox faith as myself yet are more judgmental than many hardline Protestants
Your videos were a huge impetus for my conversion to Orthodoxy , so to see a random twitter comment i made be referenced in one of your videos is surreal haha
This is all the consequence of looking at the religion (in this case Orthodoxy, but could be applied to any other) through the internet lense. Spirit of our time takes things for their face-value, aesthetics is only thing that matters and gratifies instantly, but leaves no further trace and leaves you feeling empty. Indulgence, shallowness and impatience being the main human attributes, most coming from the ego. When those people come for anything (in this case even something serious as religion and spirituality), you get nothing less than a circus - which maybe be a good one word representation of the whole internet as is today.
I will be honest, I was initially made aware of Orthodoxy through the edits you see on instagram. I am now a catechumen and have thus seen the much deeper reality of the faith, praise God for that. Although it's cringe, I can't help myself from enjoying the edits that I get, and have to be careful to not let it too deeply influence me.
I was going to say this is another example of ortholarpers pretending they are catholic crusaders but researching it purity seals don't even come from catholicism (much of warhammer's aesthetic comes from catholicism) Theres not even any christian precedent for this sort of thing. I feel nothing but cringe
I dont agree with the flag or mixing christ and table top game but i do like Warhammer and i am an orthodox i pray men in ny country continue to learn for the better to keep certain things separate
I'm not familiar with Warhammer fandom, but I heard that people like it because of the very complex and interesting lore. Also agree with you that we shouldn't mix icons with fantasy games' symbols
I'll say this, I've been looking at denominations and one of the things I've heard said about the orthodox church is that when it encountered a new civilization, they would take that which is beautiful and envelop it into that church and reject anything that was satanic. So for me, I'm applying that logic to non orthodox churches on my hunt, but I'll ask you, would the healthier approach, particularly when you have this demographic behaving this way, to actually analyse the 'pagan' aspects of their living, take what's beautiful and then reject the satanic. So if you have a group that venerate Christ and the saints with phonk clips, then is there not something there that can be extracted to include that demographic whilst keeping the correct and true spirit of Christ and the church? God bless.
The boring bit is the part just before you break through into .. almkst like another level. Keep grinding. It pays off. Nobody ever said the Christian Way was easy.
The proper way to understand the attraction to Warhammer is not through analysis of the lore, but rather the aesthetic. The aesthetic is essentially techno and, therefore implicitly Christian. I think the vibe is very similar to young men's appreciation of the crusades... You could focus on the obvious downsides of these things, but it's really about the longing for a return to tradition, enchantment, mythology, fairy tale, order, and hierarchy (with something meaningful, like Christ, at the top). Young men are longing for a world that has an obvious meaningful place for them. Our job as Orthodox is just to give these things to them because we have them.
I'm a Catholic who spent years in the TLM community, but then left after having experiences which left it looking like a white-washed tomb to me. I can understand this, but it's even stranger on our end (in some ways) as many of these 'based' trads are, to some extent, infatuated with Orthodoxy. But not, like... actual Orthodoxy. It was this trend you're talking about, the based larping as a Greek monk in the mountains or some crusader. Their minds are infatuated with the cool factor of both churches, but the heart really doesn't sound transformed. I can't judge, but that's how it always appears. It sucks because when the traditions of the Catholic/Orthodox Churches are really allowed to penetrate your soul and feed your heart, it's life-changing. This gets in the way of that.
I find more of the issue with certain converts, especially American ones, is Evangelical Corp types who will often take a longer time to mature as they're usually stuck in materialism and emotionalism along with Zio nist brainwashing. Then there's the problem of many young men and men who just never really grew up who don't have their crap together until maybe much later--if at all--compared to half a century ago (not helped due to globalization and outsourcing, of course). I'm not saying women don't have issues they have to work on (my mom has encountered women older than her who have the mind of a teenager), but I see more men in certain spheres of modern Americanist influence who think they can escape their problem through little work on themselves when its absolutely not. Part of this is due to toxicity found with chronically online life and/or poor home-rearing. Here's my story: I hail from a region in the U.S. that's considered one of the remaining bastions of traditional Americana, i.e. not tainted by hyperindividualism, along with having a culture that's made up of settlers from before the Revolution that tilled the land until the day they died as (we also are still recovering from Hurricane Helene). I grew up around around relatives going back four generations that helped form the values I have today along with my late dad being a minister's kid (a proper Methodist and not what the church became today) who was adopted and well-loved like my mom's side was. While I grew up with some fire-and-brimstone sermons and a tinge of emotionalism, how it was presented inside and outside the church was that of salt-of-the-earth wisdom and love. We could have disagreements on little things but not be dogmatic about it and the extended family dominated my social life (I could've ventured outside my family but I was a shy and to-myself child and did sadly shelter myself, which I've been working to undue). When many of my elders passed away within two years as a teenager, I had to navigate what to do with them passing on and dealing with the modern subversion that has been creeping into many lives today. In light of the vacuum that formed, I began looking deep into the early church, theological academic material, and geopolitics to look at the bigger picture (I was often interested in the sciences and such anyway and was a teacher's pet at times, especially to my observational Irish Catholic biology teacher who I shared the same values with). Being in high school when the Arab "Spring" happened and entering adulthood when ISIS led me more into learning about the native Middle Eastern Christians and the way they've dealt with what life handed to them (it paralleled that of what many skeptics of our own government deal with but on a more brutal scale). I then read about the early church and then the rest is history. Overall, I looked to the roots of it all and thought to myself, if those in the birthland of Christendom still manage to have a presence today, then what they follow may as well be what I should follow. My political views also became less neocon and more open-minded as the spectrum isn't even a line. Tecumseh Cristero (who I've been personally friends with for about five years) and you have been instrumental in being a gateway to wisely understanding the Orthodox Church as far as online Orthodoxy is concerned.
Based OrthoLARP Cringe is something I never thought I would here, but if you said to me 4 years ago I would have known exactly what you mean without knowing what any of those words meant
One of the ideas I've had is that if the Emperor was ever to die, all those emotions of worship toward him would probably create a new Chaos God in the warp, a Chaos god of Domination or something like that, that represents the dark aspects of the emperor's ironfisted empire of order.
Pretty sure the in universe explanation is like how commiting these and so acts off of belief the emperor basically became a deity problem why he's still alive although im probably wrong because i only know warhammer from youtube
The Emperor is a Christ-like figure in certain elements. He is technically immortal and even if he were killed he would eventually return. He is superior to humans. He is even superior to other people who possess powers similar to his. He was betrayed by those closest and dearest to him. He was "killed" but he remains alive. And ever since, he wards off demons and protects humanity. He also enables humanity faster than light travel by projecting a "star" in the warp dimension. In other (and metaphorical) words, the Emperor guides humanity through hell. He is the literal light in the "grim dark" -ness. You can have your own opinion on all this, but understand that when it comes to writing stories, especially fantasy ones that involve themes of sacrifice and suffering, Christ is impossible to avoid. You will start to draw parallels with Him almost instantly, it's inevitable. Now as to why 40K fans would be drawn towards the Imperium of Man and by extension the Orthodox faith, I think that the answer is rather straight forward. Christianity in the west has become a teethless limp reed that sways and bends to the slightest winds of societal and worldly change. For example you have western "churches" that are now waving rainbow flags. Nothing more needs to be said on that front even though it could be. So what about the Imperium then? Well, the Imperium is a religious faction that still has teeth. Too many zealous and ravenous teeth perhaps, but it has them regardless. It has blind and unquestioning loyalty to the ideal they worship. And they will sooner all die than embrace heresy and start changing their ways. The Imperium will never wave Chaos flags. It will never abandon the ideas that the Emperor embodies. It will never relativize good and evil. It will never invite their enemies into their own homes. It will never surrender and pathetically grovel. And above all else, it will never lose faith... And that brings us to Orthodoxy - the last remaining form of Christianity with some semblance of a backbone. The only form of Christianity which still holds the Word above the world and its ideologies. Orthodoxy, which by its very nature cannot start to change its rules on a random whim of modern trends. For example, look at Mount Athos and the EU's push to get them to bend the knee. That's precisely what western people crave. Conviction. Same conviction the martyrs of old had. They need this because you cannot have faith in a religion once it becomes apparent that its priesthood doesn't have faith in their God. Lastly, lore wise, you're correct that the Imperium is an intolerant and fascist faction. However within the context of the setting they have to be. Anything less means total annihilation. This is not a story of "humans bad, aliens good" nor vice versa, but one of "everyone bad". The moment the Imperium becomes tolerant is the moment the following happens: The demons will corrupt and tear it apart from within, while the orks and tyranids will slaughter and eat the remaining survivors. The stragglers will then be enslaved into a lifetime of torture by the eldar and the rest will be obliterated by the necrons. So yeah, the Imperium is bad because it has to be. Because that's the setting: "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war".
I mostly agree. Wathammer emperor cringe like you said. And I believe we should love everyone. But I do believe we have to defend our homeland. Yes we have to love our neighbors, but we are betraying our actual neighbors if we allow pagan raiders to invade our village. I also believe that in certain cases (such as countries that preform child sacrifice) it would be morally wrong to not destroy/conquer that society because of how much God hates child sacrifice. But yeah I agree Warhammer cringe because pagans are cringe 👍
I agree. I also feel like this seeps into the sentiment of those who think they are Varangians being called up to defend or retake Constantinople or some sort of Kornilov Regiment soldier defending Russian Orthodoxy against bolshevism. Come on man.
As someone with borderline personality disorder and ADHD traits, I very much appreciate everything that has been said about "boring" mundane spirituality. I often tell myself that I am not running anywhere from Orthodoxy just because of the intercessions of my guardian angel, patron saint and the grace of God! 😉 ... And now I'm itching to start getting interested in Warhammer! I must resist! 😀 ... Serious question: Could you talk a bit about your views on bioethics and vaccinations, since we're on the subject of controversy? Specifically: after my conversion, I got vaccinated against covid several times and my priest had no problem with it (he himself took the stance that he would not give any recommendations to believers in this regard, he got vaccinated himself on the advice of his doctor). Then I moved to another town where there is a sympathetic younger priest who is an avid anti-vaxxer. I disagree with him on that, or rather on the part about whether covid vaccines rather help or hurt (I'm the analytical type who prefers cold statistics to personal testimony). However, my priest considers it a sin to knowingly use a product that used cells from an aborted embryo in its development, even though the abortion occurred decades ago. I certainly agree that this is a spiritual issue, and I am sorry that there is no covid vaccine currently on the market that did not use cells from the HEK 293 lineage in its development. But then I looked at the flu vaccine and some vaccines have also been developed using these cells. And also the hepatitis A vaccine that I've been inoculated with... Basically, I don't think it's even possible to trace all or even most ethically questionable practices used in medical science. Much knowledge comes from now unacceptable human experimentation, animal cruelty, etc. The saying goes: ask your priest. If my priest calls something a sin, OK, then I will obey. He may be wrong, but obedience seems to me to be more important than health considerations. But at the same time, as a person who is used to thinking things through, I suffer a bit from this 😉 . I am very interested in your opinion!
To be honest I used to love war hammer 40000 oh so much just to realize it was it was a bunch of fantasy garbage; I left it behind after I embraced the orthodox church. I didn't realize this was even a problem, I thought it was just me.
I will never be a pacifist. In fact I will go further and say that no Christian should be pacifist. This was beautifully encapsulated by the Orthodox Christian Ivan Ilyin in his book 'Resistance to Evil By Force.' This rant seems to be at the foundation a critique of young Orthodox converts who are immature in their faith. It is however a weak jab at the reality of being a man in a fallen world - which at times necessitates struggle of force, not of pacifism.
Hi Bojan, I wanted to ask if you could make a video regarding Christian persecution in Malaysia and Lebanon, I know they are happening but I feel so far removed from it as I am in America and know nobody from these places or even near them
@@kaisercollins3097 Um, why don't you ask Bojan first? Look, I don't like Zelensky or Putin but I can say that at least Putin has more class and Zelensky is at most just a puppet placed in by foreign influence. I'm neutral and look at the bigger picture. Grow up!
Also, on the topic of you mentioning "literal toys", I wonder what you'd have to say about Funko pops, action figures, and anime figures. Are they modern-day idols as described in Revelation 9:20?
I would basically say that for an adult to use and obsess over such things is idolatry. An adult should not be defined by other characters that don’t exist and obsess over them. When I mean by obsess I mean by using these things to fulfill one’s own character, as though the objects are alive and can be a part of their lives and fill an empty gap.
Politics is about power in the world and doesn't belong in the church imo. Of course, we're all subject to politics in some manner being alive and in the world, but if you're "coming to Christ" only for your politics, you're doing it for the wrong reasons. 40K is "based" in a sense, but largely it was written with intent to make fun of religious values. Serious lack of discernment in many people. I suppose if that wasn't the case Jesus would have had an easier time on earth the first time....
"Emperor is fighting demons". Yeah well... In the WoW universe, Sergeras fought demons for thousands of years... Look where he went from there..." Great talk Boki Brate!
Personally I am not subscribing to one donomination of christianity. I dont go to church besides on christmas day. I read the bible when I'm alone in my room late at night, and my prayers are only to god, and I dont ever write them down or speak them out loud. I believe that christ did help me get my life back together and allthough I sin even now, I do truly want to grow closer to god. The whole discussion about what is based what is cringe or how you live out your faith is counterproductive in my opinion. I too like warhammer and I like to write my characters with christian values or ressembling certain virtues. Furthermore integrating christianity into our interest isnt anything new. Even Armor adorned with christian symbols isnt knew Its been arround since the middle ages. I think that all these fudes between the different christian denominations miss the point. We are chistians and we should strive to follow gods Moral compass not the ones of our own interpretation. And we shouldnt try to determine what is based cringe or whatever, we should each look at ourself and ask us, are we truly without sin and are we in a position to lecture or judge others... No.
Hear me out: State mandated grass touching would solve like 99% of the chronically online anti-social behavior caused by young people completley overstimulated by hyperreality.
A lot of it is just how interesting it is. However, I definitely think it has to be separated. The Imperium of man are humanity however and they're dealing with these horrors. I think it's ok to admire just as spiritual warfare and or even self-defense because that's what it is in the context of that universe. They're strict because if they weren't, they would die. Is real life like this? No, so obviously the answer couldn't be to emulate something that is like this. Because it isn't just mirroring facism but communist juche type thinking, I mean the dictator in it is an atheist that gets worshipped (like Stalin or Mao). But especially with all those things I think it's approaching idol worship in of itself.
Last weekend I went to an Orthodox monastery in Maryland (it sucked) and there was a new convert there being received that Saturday. His name was Felix but he was given the new name Dionysius, obviously a product of Orthodox fetishism and Eastern cultural imperialism because he had no idea about St. Felix. It also became obvious through conversation that he was a Dyerbro "based convertodox" who will no doubt experience a faith crisis or apostatize in a couple years. Also please consider watching The Tabellion's video on warhammer orthodox purity seals. It addresses the pagan worldly idea of power for sure. ua-cam.com/video/ig5WNJI6PUw/v-deo.html
As a woman with proper high standards that she herself holds to, I don't want a man like that to even touch me. Just as Bojan said in the video, it's time to grow up. Most of these problems with men are often due to American Christianity 101.
While this definitely is a problem I think people should realize that a big cause of this is identity crisis, a lot of guys need/want to be a part of something and when the toxic American culture does not satisfy them they become obsessed with another, I don’t think it’s inherently American values that influence them into acting like this, but hating it and becoming obsessed with something else. Nothing wrong with being inspired and incorporated into another culture but I think we both know how this is different…
I understand you point against mimicking Warhammer, but should Orthodox Christians not like Lord of the Rings, Marvel & DC superheroes, Star Wars, Chronicle of Narnia, et al? What about Christians making up Orthodox Christian superheroes, comic books. Are you against Johnathan Paegeau's Orthodox Christian comic book 'God's'Dog'? Do you oppose Orthodox Christian soldiers waving flags with the Image of Edessa?
Why aren't bishops doing their jobs??? They are supposed to be the Apostles in the modern times??? Instead they have let all sorts "represent" Orthodoxy,......
Orthodoxy is about cleaning your own heart. If you think it's some kind of political thing, or some trinket to appease our vainglory, then you're missing the mark.
I can only imagine what Jesus would say about this particular subject. I find it distasteful and tone deaf, I’m not an Orthodox Christian nor have I been anything but I know that Jesus would not like anything like that.
I know the difference between pushback and hate, and yes, I did receive actual hate for it. I never said every Christian who takes their faith seriously is a LARPer, or any for that matter. Also, no bad takes detected.
there's a giant powerful country in eastern europe that co-opts christianity into it's ideology of traditional™ values™ but western converts are somehow to blame. 'ortholarp' wouldn't appear as it stands if there wasn't one exact goverment that larps as a last-stand-against-satan-katehon (hence the wh40k parallels, not 'loss of masculinity that warhammer appeals to' as some theorize here). the problem is not western converts 'using toys in their spirituality' but actual living people who slap wax seals with psalms on their guns that they use to actually kill other living people, imo that's more of a concern than some teenager's shitposting on xeeter
I tend to feel like what we're seeing here is a frustration with atheism among young men specifically. And in their frustration, they're _trying_ to find their way towards God, but they're viewing the faith through the warped lens of entertainment, which was ultimately their previous god when they were atheists.
I do believe they _are_ trying their best, but we have to be vigilant and set good examples ourselves for them to follow.
To the comments hating on Americans, let's not single out Western converts for scapegoating. Every convert from every culture has their baggage. African converts, for example, have issues letting go of their tribal practices. Even a lot of cradles in Russia, Greece don't take the faith seriously and treat it as just a facet of their culture.
As a Greek Orthodox, we do the faith far better than other people; we treat Christianity as a process rather than a point of absolution, with the Church being the gas stop to help us on our journey.
@@BorninPurple- a totally not biased guy
@@Цар_Антоний Or maybe less Westerners should come to Orthodox Christianity and lecture how we should practice our religion
@@BorninPurple You don't own orthodoxy. Christ does.
@@Bellg Neither you do you, but I don't tell you how to worship
St. Paisios warned about this. The desire to correct others is wrapped in egoism.
Catechesis involves a lot of correction. Especially for converts who are coming from a very materialistic and emotion driven version of spirituality into Holy Orthodoxy.
@@harrygarris6921 I’m sure there’s more context to his statement. He must have been talking about a specific type.
@@kaisercollins3097 St. Paisios is a great saint. I don’t know where this negativity is coming from.
@@jcald111 perhaps the motivation to correct for the sake of proving oneself right rather than trying to direct an inquirer towards the truth.
One thing common in Orthodox online circles that's outrageous is meme depictions of Christ. Also, mixing holy icons with secular music montages to pump people up like they're going to the gym.
I must admit, the atheistic of that mixed with slowed or sped up chants is probably what sparked my intrest in orthodoxy, but after ya know, actually listening to orthodox Christians and priests it became clear that the whole gym bro cool edit thing isn't the orthodox life
I'm kind of pro christ in memes as long as it's positive. Some are definitely mocking but most of them centre around his kindness and devine power
But icons are the Kingdom of Heaven represented! We need some respect to them. Would you play secular music at the church?@@kaisercollins3097
The Church is a spiritual gym.
@@kaisercollins3097 Of course, but you missed the other half. It's background music played behind a montage of different Orthodox icons, Saints, etc., in order to pump people up and to look cool. So many people, almost exclusively on the internet, claim to be Orthodox just because it is "based" or "alpha" and aren't even baptized members. This is such a big deal because it leads people to venture into certain areas that they have no authority to be in.
I see so many children who claim to be Orthodox online (Who've never even been inside an Orthodox church) just because they were influenced by edits.
I've seen videos of kids (Pre-pubescents who have barely experienced life) claiming to be/vowing to be monks when they grow up, just because they were influenced by edits.
Another thing I've noticed is the amount of children who like to engage in crappy apologetics online. I've seen too many videos of little kids arrogantly challenging Muslims, Protestants, and Catholics, to debates as if they became Bruce Lee of Apologetics overnight. They spend all their time decrying heresies that they don't even understand and making 30 page slideshows full of straw-mans. They should be focused on God, but next to that, they should be focused on being kids.
The radical TikTok Orthobro community (Which is also on other platforms aside from TikTok) is harmful to Orthodoxy and it is a cancer to the youth.
I think the warhammer × orthodoxy stuff is common at the moment because ortho converts nowadays are typically teenage men or young adult men and warhammer is very popular amoung these age groups. It's very common then to combine your interests, couple that with convertitis and voila: you have warhammer ortholarp
As a young guy who tries to become Orthodox, I’ve gotta say this is true for me ! A lot of time, I only use my faith for « based » or « chad » and forgetting the Jesus’s part. Again it has to do with pride, a sin I have a very difficult time to deal with ! But again, it will take time to get rid of this sin and it will take time for me to be humble and to accept Christ in my heart, please pray for me brothers and sisters ! ☦️
Find and talk to a priest bro
I will try, the only problem is that I live in a country where being Orthodox is a minority and to find an Orthodox Church I have to take 30 minutes to 1 hour from where I live to find one !
Will try to, the only problem is that I live in a country where Orthodoxy is a minority so it takes a long time for me to find an Orthodox Church.
Early on I was guilty of OrthoLarping. But I quit right before the Capcut Fonk Remix edits started popping up, thank God.
the what? actually maybe I don't want to know
I have no idea what Capcut Fonk Remix is, and I am afraid to ask.
@@mement0_m0ri Capcut is a video editing app. They'll take icons or video from a Liturgy and put effects and stuff over it. Then they'll set it to phonk music.
@mement0_m0ri CapCut is a video editing app, and phonk is a stupid genre of music that is basically if you ran EDM through an low power 90's speaker
It's super cringe and tbh the people who make them just want to act like they're better than others I've noticed
@@H2ORaccoonphonk is not cringe (I’m catholic) it’s some good music bro
(Not Orthodox (Protestant) so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt)
The problem with OrthoLARPers is the fact that it seems that they convert to Orthodoxy not for the sake of Orthodoxy but for other reasons such as:
-Wanting to rebel against progressive theology in Protestantism
-Wanting to rebel against Vatican II Catholicism
-They think the Orthodox aesthetic looks cool
-They think it's "based"
Or a mix of these things.
I doubt that many are even converts in the true sense, they may claim to be Orthodox but I highly doubt they are attending Divine Liturgy or Catechism classes. Until they are Catechized, Baptized, or Christimated, actually being apart of the Church, they are not Orthodox.
to be fair orthodox christian churches and monasteries are very beautiful.
It's true
@@thecoolbyzantine24 I agree.
It reminds me of wisdom you shared at the end of your “Bad Reasons to Convert” video from long ago that popped in my head which is “Convert for wrong reasons, Stay for Christ.”
That's what Saint Cyril of Jerusalem says
Perfect video, Bojan. I'm afraid most of the recent converts to Orthodoxy view it as some sort of right wing military religion, and they seem to want to associate themselves more with the Church on political grounds than with Christ. I'm a recent convert myself (2022) and sadly some people have called me "based" because of that, even with the best of intentions, and I can't help but feel a little sad.
I think types like orthodox meme squad and orthodox kyle are part of the problem. They're promoting an aesthetics of which Orthodoxy is part. Maybe that'll be good in the long run, and the hordes of young men that convert out of military desire end up having their hearts set on fire out of love and faith. But for now, it seems to me like they're using Orthodoxy for ulterior (although perhaps unconscious) motives.
I agree. I don’t know if it is good long term though if there is an importing of the Protestant fundamentalist/rigorist phronema. This is especially felt with the extremely vocal convert priests sharing their opinions on UA-cam and speaking for Orthodoxy in many online forums, and even bishops with corrective baptism norms and such.
The slippery slope of LARP-ing Christians is a real thing. I'm a Catholic myself and I know a person who was a Catholic who left the Church because of "clown Mass" type arguments spread around, and because of people rage-baiting with pictures of liberal churches in Germany doing illicit things (very similar to what Kyle presents in his videos against Catholicism). After going through his LTM traditionalist phase, he became a sedevacantist and then an Eastern Orthodox - now you might think i'ts not a slippery slope since he became an orthodox but of course, because these people are carried by the winds of controversies and gossip and what is trendy and based rather than being firmly rooted in the teachings of their tradition, sacramental life of the Church and prayer, he ended up leaving Eastern Orthodoxy as well as the grass was not greener on the other side when it comes to controversies or being able to refute every argument presented to you in polemics. Now, he is just a quasi stay-at-home discord Christian who is into philosophy and debating.
This shallow online catechesis that comes from following online figures, and basing your faith on who can win most debates is horrible and very worrisome.
I agree. I feel like this kind of polemic approach ("debunking protestant myths" / "destroying catholic heresies" etc) is also part of it.
I would remove Orthodox Kyle from the list of Orthobros. He's one of the furthest from the Orthobro type since he actually takes the faith seriously, attends church regularly, got married in the church, and is now moving away from content creation to focus on being a good husband.
@@Bo0tmun Orthodox Kyle, get out of your fake profile and go tend to your wife.
You know, people always talk about the "banality of evil," but maybe we also need to recognize the "banality of virtue" as well.
Like warhammer 40k is a dystopia controlled by superstition, war and rage: it's like the opposite of what jesus wishes for. Like one of the things a lot of martyrs got killed for was because they refused to enter the roman army. Christ is truth, not superstition. Christ is peace and love, not war and hate.
40k is a tale of how in order to defy the divine, a powerful mage created an atheist empire, that then became refounded on a false religion worshipping that mage now turned lich...
It is a tale of how fanaticism of the emperor made his sons turn to demons, for no other options, after religion was ruined, a tale of hipocricy, of lies, of tyranny...
I can't believe anyone sees any "good guys" in that setting...
@@TheAtlarchy thats the whole point in 40k everyone is the bad guy only 2 can be seen as even mildly good ant that's the salamander legion the only legion to truly cares about civilion life and the tyranid bugs who are just instinct driven
Warhammer 40k is awesome
@@TheAtlarchy well, that very surfaced idea of what point of wharhammer is. I think Idea of Emperor was to destroy all other religions and chaotic cults to fill the gap and become God himself. Otherwise, he would have refused to help those who pray to him. But whatever, that discussion for fans. But I love Warhammer not for that, but for how inspiring characters are. This series is all about pathos, defiance, and indomitable human spirit. There are billions of men, but they are all stronger then many of us. There are many good guys, not in Christian virtue, but Illiadic. I don't aspire to purge xenos just because they breathe, but I do aspire to hold the palace at Istvann III, still knowing that battle is lost. Or defiantly march to certain doom knowing that my death will only hold demons for half an hour.
@@TheAtlarchy Loken Garvy is a good guy, Saul Tarviz is, ordinary guardsman sacrificing his life for humanity and Emperor is. Although maybe the universe is not about the good guys, but about the strong guys, mentally strong I mean.
It is definitely an issue. I am not Orthodox yet, although I hope to be. It really hurts to see other people suffer because of these larpers. I mean no harm to anyone. Thank you, Bojan. I like watching your channel; you were the first Orthodox channel I found and watched. Your insight has really helped me. So many priests talk about how harmful it is.
I can't stand to be on any Orthodox discord server anymore, a lot of the people that frequent them are constantly being over critical of more relaxed Orthodox or how based Russia and Putin are. I wanted to make some Orthodox friends but there was no way that I would be involved in the "based" "trad" ideology.
For sure. It's one of the worst online communities. I am also in the carnivore diet community which is also extremely narrow minded and toxic, people are constantly scolding others (especially beginners) for not being "pure enough" or for not getting some minor detail right, and it's honestly the same in the online orthodox community.
Just stick to your rl orthodox friends in your parish. I noticed they're a lot more mature and enjoyable to be around irl than the online community for the most part. Online in general usually tends to bring out the oddest in people.
@@dixonb.tweenerlegs4225 absolutely true
We honestly need state mandated grass touching
@@NavelOrangeGazer👍🏾
Sick of you judging me for all the liturgies I hold in the block church on my minecraft server.
The only way to fight this is to spend less time on social media. If you live close to other orthodox Christians, find some time to hang out, if you have problems with loneliness or are distanced, spend time in prayer.
The modern plight of the chronically online.
@@mement0_m0ri sadly, that is the reality.
It’s one thing to be entertained by Warhammer, but we cannot incorporate it into the faith. A lot of convert boys in America have all these dreams and fantasies surrounding Orthodoxy, but none of them sit next to the Syrian grandma during coffee hour. None of them show up to clean up day at the church. None of them keep a prayer rule or fast seriously. They don’t show up for vespers or Orthros. Yet they dream about being priests. A lot of this is caused by main character syndrome. And they fail to see that Christ is the writer, main-character and the story itself. We need to teach these men the simple faith. Giving what they have to the poor, praying and fasting. Struggling not to sin and ultimately failing only to try again. And reading the Bible and lives of the Saints before we concern ourselves with reading councils and theological mysteries. That’s how we make the faith our own.
I find more nourishment from salt-of-the-earth people. The academics and others are merely supplemental.
From what I've seen most of these types of orthodox are genuinely fanatical, they are just really big 40k fans. I guess I'm not on twitter so I don't see quite as much larp, what I do see is people who put an extreme weight on the aesthetics of those mundane aspects and practices of discipline you were talking about. They don't exactly get the opportunity to fight space aliens after all. This might also be why the inspiration is most open within the context of war, at least other than memes and imagery, 40k inspired orthodox otherwise looks like a love of gothic (which among western converts is easy to confuse with Catholic cultural background) and entirely too many candles in the prayer corner.
The rest will be internal, like thinking of demonettes rather than succubuses in their demonology. The religion of 40k doesn't have much content, it's most cool factor, but it was highly influential during a formative period in many men's lives, and it was likely the source of the most beauty they saw before they entered the church as the aesthetics are on point, which you certainly can't say about the modern world (unless you are in a museum or among older buildings). Let's not forget that the Rus converted for beauty rather than theology and that has not stopped them from becoming a centre of orthodox life and learning.
As for why the imperium is admired it is because they fight evil rather than redefining it (and it is evil, it is against humanity), it's really quite simple, men like masculine things and the imperium is masculine. 40k fans mostly don't admire the emperor, he is an open joke among the fans for being a terrible dad and reddit atheist, being British a lot of 40k is somewhat tongue in cheek.
On the point of force the willingness to use it to defend yourself is correct, Russia is such a militarized culture because they had centuries of threat from the tartars, they would not exist otherwise. The Byzantines also had a highly militarized Christianity (in both the monasteries maintained and funded military forces for state use). However I have noticed that many orthodox converts are very into the Crusading spirit of medieval Catholicism, and in all probability were disappointed in the past to find that even the Latin Catholics aren't very medieval, so got into the orthodox equivalents, which of course aren't really the same thing, orthodoxy always being much more centralised in the obligations around force and power.
You might also remember that different things are mixed in, westerners are latinised germanics, we have a long history of aristocracy and essentially a tribal view of freedoms and social structures which the Catholic Church utterly transformed with centuries of social engineering, we come from a deep cultural and social background and you can't expect people to just pick up the attitudes of easterners, under the surface there are very different social structures and ways of thinking, and many of these aspects likely won't change, those who convert will likely keep many cultural elements from the west, personally I would focus on getting rid of the progressivism rather than the bellicosity and love of overly rigid logical systems.
Personally I feel this is all a bit much ado about nothing.
Very much agreed my friend. I never hear ethnos brought into a conversation such as this. The Church comes to a people, with all the baggage that entails. Veering too far right may seem to miss the mark but not quite as badly as veering so far left that we extinguish ourselves.
“As for why the imperium is admired it is because they fight evil rather than redefining it (and it is evil, it is against humanity)”
You don’t consider servortisation and infant incinerators to be evil?
Also what about the genocide of peaceful species?
@@Viz-Jaqtaar so you think wanting to kill minorities isn’t as bad as being far left?
All human states removed from God are imperfect, the Imperium is obviously a totalitarian state, but they are also the reason humanity is still in existence within the setting. Just as communists may be evil but are still better than an even more virulent destructive force like the eco-zelots. Though the Chinese legalists might be much more of a comparison, ultimately they were a positive force even if the first emperor was one of the worst tyrants in history, while it would be excessive to attribute anything positive to the communists at all, as they destroy societies at human cost rather than build them.
I'm very glad you've recognized the Ortholarp issue. Western converts are a major issue. They are not being told to shut up and learn for a few years before teaching and spouting their mouths.
Western Converts are a major issue, huh ? Interesting way you used to say that. You could have said the behavior of some Western Converts is an issue, or a specific group of Western Converts are the issue, but you choose to say Western Converts are the issue. So you think Gods true Church is only for people from the East ?
@@elias58855someone’s butthurt lol
You are literally putting words into someone else’s mouth
@@Isaidavid999 Feel free to read what he wrote.
I've known quite a few western converts, priests and lay people, and none of them are like this. On the contrary, they deserve a great deal of respect for their decision to leave their old lives behind to join the Church - especially from the likes of me, a lukewarm cradle Orthodox who grew up in prideful ignorance. Maybe times are changing as social media is getting baked in so deeply - but let's not use a few bad examples to characterize a whole lot of good people who found Christ and His Church. Glory to God.
Another big problem I see which few people talk about is how many INQUIRERS are creating orthodox apologetics pages and debating people....
Omg yes!
There are absolutely zero "based" elements of Warhammer: the God Emperor is literally a fedora-wearing ultraliberal Atheist. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with being a Warhammer fan and putting an Orthobro spin on it. But try not to get lost in your own imagination and trick yourself to believe that things aren't what they are.
That's the point of the setting and the meta-irony. It is depicting the inevitable forces that drive human spirituality towards God - subverted by secular humanism, and leaving a spiritual opening to the demonic to fill the void that only Christ; the core of the final eschaton can fill.
The story, the setting, takes on the aesthetics of Christianity, but with the merging of supernatural ideas with Jung, to create a scenario where spirituality is physically inescapable. And the discontents of secular repression lead to a social environment as extreme and akin to that of Russia following the decade after the collapse of the Bolshevik government; chaos, cults, and yet amidst it all; the revival of the Church.
I think of the saying "you may not believe in the devils, but the devils certainly believe in you."
@@Zeal_Faith_Humanity Bruh... stop. Warhammer isn't that deep.
@yossarian7617
The novels certainly touch on classical liberal enlightenment themes where man divorces the state from God. And it is very prevelant in the setting that the void created from that secularism leads to a spiritual vacuum towards the demonic. It is quite literally similar to the spiritual vacuum of Russia in the 90s after the collapse of the Soviet state.
Yes, it can indeed be interpreted as "that deep." Though I think it's common sense for anyone with basic literary skills. We aren't reading very complex Heideggerian hieroglyphics.
@@Zeal_Faith_Humanity What you're doing is projecting your preferred themes in a fantasy setting whose sole purpose is to sell board games. Any argument you might have that "muh Imperium of Man is ackshually based" falls apart completely when you take in account any of the other factions. Funny how nobody projects political theory themes on the Orks...
@yossarian7617
All you are conveying is your inability to meta-analyze. It is a commonly accepted fact that the novels (not the games) do indeed implement a form of alternative history where secular and state mandated atheism is implemented into society. I don't care if it is written even in a children's book. There is always a presupposed meta-ethics, philosophy, and political philosophy of all sorts in any works. Even children's books have to borrow from the human ethos of history. Nothing escapes ontological factors. It is reductionistic to reality, to assume everything is either the output or input of the mind or projection vs intention, when everything shares a fundamental presupposed reality which shapes it.
For instance, we would not have the modern science we know of today, if scholasticism had not been its predecessor. Everything, yes, even the most insignificant things, tell a tale.
I converted from UPCI to EOC via GOARCH & have not gotten used to Orthodox brethren complaining about converts being Zealots. Saint Paul was a major hyper Zealot of a convert and wrote 25% of the New Testament.
The problem addressed in this video isn't zealotry for Christ, it's a zealotry for a video game.
To understand what a zealot is, go look at Saint Joseph the Hesychast and the calander zealots. Also read the life of Saint Gregory Palamas as a Hagiorite. The zealots in his day started a civil war, tried to put down hesychism, and tried to let the serbs invade the Byzantine Empire. Zealotry is a radicalization of Orthodoxy. Better yet, just talk to and obey your spiritual Father, lol. That's the cure for zealotry.
True, however there is a healthy balance. Paul still exercised a great deal compassion, patience and wisdom. Zealotry in of itself is not bad but it must be tempered.
The converts in my local ROCOR parishes really need to understand this and apply it.
Bro stop you were just in kyles channel calling his wife mid and saying he was inferior to you. But the other converts are the problem, of course
The desire for a overbearing ruler is directly proportional to the abdication of resposiblility in the culture. Instead of cringing at the new orthodorks, maybe see where we fell down on the job. Power worship comes from experienced chaos.
That’s right on the mark.
I find it odd, however, that people would be attracted to Orthodoxy unless they’ve totally misunderstood it. It seems to be anything but an abdication of responsibility.
But I think what keeps people in the LARPing zone is that they don’t actually participate in the Church so they can enjoy all the aesthetics and appreciate the theology in a conceptual way but don’t have to actually be faced with confession.
I needed to hear this. To let myself be 'bored' in my spiritual life is a sign of maturity and I confess that I struggle with this a lot.
Im glad i don't know anything about warhammer lol
I mean, it's cool. I like the lore, it is interesting. But it is insane how far people get wraped up into it.
fr I had to search it up while watching this
If you don’t Bojan will educate you about it.
Sadly the more time you spend on something, the more it grows.
The worst part of this is that to an outsider *who deliberately has no interest in WH40K* it sounds like they creating amulets without realizing it....
Leviticus 10: 1-2: Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the Lord, contrary to his command. So fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord.
9:20 I have also heard online from a certain "orthobro" UA-camr that we should love our personal enemies *but* hate the enemies of God. My question is, who counts as an enemy of God? Anyone who sins? Anyone who is unrepentant? Anyone going to hell? Blasphemers? I have never heard of this distinction of enemies quite literally anywhere else besides this person.
It is also from a certain saint, also nonsense. God Himself knows of no such distinction. As God Himself
was literally murdered by literal enemies of God, He prayed: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
@JohnStevens-23rd That's why I put orthobro in quotation marks.
@JohnStevens-23rdu could ask him what it means
The enemies of God are demons and not humans.
Anytime I see this rhetoric they are just trying to talk about groups of people based on their ethnicity. Which is clearly wrong.
I can only speak from my experience, but my own journey to the church was very nearly derailed by the nonstop oversaturation of "based chad" Ortho memes and yt channels online. Fortunately I managed to push through the nonsense and found my way, but I will always wonder how many people got lost along the way, confused and caught up in imaginings of gigachads burning heretics with eye lasers, etc.
Gotta separate your love of God from your love of fictional men in power armor.
Thank you for your videos they made attending a local Church easier and got me through the door.
I’m a big 40k fan and even though I’m an Imperium fan there’s a reason why I don’t like the emperor. 1 he’s like literally like a super mega Reddit atheist antichrist and 2 he is a dead bead and abusive Dad to the primarchs his sons
Loyola contemplation is about engaging with a particular moment in scripture not emotion.
In what way other than fantasy is this possible?
Are icons fantasy? Because they don't depict the moment in time historically accurate either@@PSNSMANIACALMIND1st
Via the imagination which is the issue
@@PSNSMANIACALMIND1st Icons are fantasy representing reality as no icon of a biblical event is truly historically accurate to the moment.
@@iliya3110 That's not what bojan was talking about. Obfuscation
Great video, thank you! My guess (because I'm not deeply entrenched in the Warhammer 40k lore/games but I've seen/played enough to understand the essence of it) is that many young men, Christian or not, are powerfully attracted to the Warhammer world and specific human factions within it because we live in an increasingly feminized world in which the masculine is often heavily discouraged, and the essence of this Warhammer 40k world, (specifically the factions they resonate with) is very masculine.
The factions and heroes, they're basically all deeply flawed (like real life) and should never be fully embraced as any kind of good role model, but there are traditionally masculine traits, actions, words spoken, archetypes, etc that are a breath of fresh air to these men (myself included).
Many men have been starved, in some real sense, of their masculinity, and many of the masculine virtues/actions modern society condemns and labels as "toxic", young men intuitively know they need to embrace and embody. And at least some of those masculine virtues/actions/archetypes are present in full force in the world of Warhammer 40k.
"In sterquiliniis invenitur" - I doubt Christian men fully embrace any of these factions/characters (are there any fully "good" characters? not sure), but they're taking whatever gold they can gather from the filth, and there certainly is at least some. It's analogous to what the Fathers called "beautifying the church" with "profane knowledge," what we might call secular knowledge today.
*But I haven't watched the previous video yet, not sure what Ortholarping is and how it relates to Warhammer 40k. Will check that out as soon as I can
I've been into Warhammer for very long, I got into it in an era where we didn't discuss feminism or masculinity.
I think people are a bit too inclined to philosophize every aspect or detail of the world, when it's actually quite simple- it's a universe of well designed worlds with cool miniatures and people enjoy painting and playing games. As to the design, there is an unabashed masculine quality to it, but it was not made as a reaction to feminism, just simple enjoyment for it's aesthetic qualities.
As to your last point, I fully agree. Take what is good, and magnify it, and when it comes to evil and flawed characters, the universe usually does well to show you how that is manifest.
Contrary to what many think (who might not know much about it), everyone in Warhammer know saying FOR THE EMPEROR! is a bit of a joke and yes we all know that he, The Big E, is a flawed guy. That makes the setting interesting because it's a human centered reality and a good reflection on a world without God that nevertheless cannot help but reach towards divinity and goodness in the best way they can despite their flaws, if you're inclined to read it from a Christian perspective. I'm not clutching my pearls over it, because I know it's for fun and there doesn't seem to be anything inherently sinful about it. Unless of course you want to bring your Warhammer models into church.
I find that a lot of people tend to have trouble separating reality from fiction. I am actually appalled that people compare the Emperor with Jesus Christ, because IN LORE the Emperor is a massive Atheist.
Thank you for addressing it. I am tired and I avoid writing comments about such things, so now having a video summarizing it I can just post a link.
Quick correction: There were the Mexican Christeros, who fought for religious freedom to be Catholic under President Plutarco in the 1920s. But there was a big push for real peace, not just "haha christian gun go brrr."
I am Catholic, apart from those cliches on St Ignatius of Loyola and Charlemagne which I think to be a bit poorly managed here, I agree that there is a lot of LARPing in new converts that go for the more traditional circles in both Orthodox and Catholicism. Here in Brazil I see many who seek my religion for its aesthetics and for finding a way to ellaborate on their political views to polemise all the time. It is sad, because to fully convert takes self denial, studying and meditating alone as well as patience with our brethren in moments of difficulty. It is common to see this kind of people treating someone they had never met before as Judas Iscariot for q mild disagreement, while Our Lord instructed us to love everyone. Even at His Passion among his last words on the cross He states "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing". Whenever I meet a new convert, I always try to remind them the essence of the Good News and to be very careful with the beauty of the symbolisms found on the liturgy, its garments, vessels, movements, prayers and chants, because it all can easily become a fuel for pride. Approaching spirituality should be gradual and careful, one may not wish to rush things up, otherwise they might leave the faith as easily as they converted.
This is all growing pains of the Western church. Some guys are clearly learning how to take faith seriously for the first time, and are stumbling because they need to grow up a little.
the seals where created originally to mock Christians now we use that mockery as A tool to glorify God just as we use the very title of Christian. And russian orthodox church creates seals based on 40k is the fault of converts? If so how.
Really refreshing to hear about the importance of the mandaneness of Orthodox spirituality in the online Orthodox sphere and how it prevents apostasy. Too many fall for the cool, the fringe, barely go Church, call for violence & wear Orthodoxy as a pride symbol and even end up worshiping false idols. This is why adoration for fascism and ultra masculinity thrives among many in the convert sphere. It's very spiritually dangerous. "Truly I tell you, I do not know you".
"A man does not live by his feelings any more then by bread, but by the truth, the will, the word, the uttered being of God" George Macdonald
Thank you for standing firm in the faith, no matter the outcry from the "Orthobros"
Thank you for being a sober voice and a good representative of the Orthodox Faith. To many new and typically young converts try to modernize and fantasize it, with prayer hopefully they will understand.
Identify the urge and direct it properly, don't push it away
American Orthodox converts can treat Orthodoxy as another “identity.” It’s a fad or political pin that they can thump around to show how different they are
I feel really bad now because I’m a massive Warhammer 40k fan ,and also a faithful orthodox Christian. Please tell me if any of my fellow orthodox guys are big fans of the imperium and Warhammer in general.(I like Blood Angels and Black Templars. I’m also gonna be stealing your primarus marines and then just field Eversor Assassins.)
As always check with your priest, ask for their guidance.
@@dirk1998 I mean it’s a board game,and I do regularly
I would like to answer your question regarding why the setting of 40k attracts so many young men.
No it is not because of fascism, or paganism. Yes you could argue that paganism is an easy way to classify the setting, but that is an oversimplification.
I make the claim the setting is actually a reflection of man's inability to create a true final eschaton in of himself. It is hence (though perhaps not intentionally) an irony depicting the necessity of a final eschaton born from perfect goodness - only found in God. This is of course not found in the setting's heart - the throne of the dead emperor. But the setting screams a yearning for the vanquishing of the disteleology of the universe, the church-like architecture, the aesthetics, the entite imperium just screams of an empire that desires the glory of God but can not find it.
Warhammer 40k is a cosmic irony depicting the inescapablity of spirituality and faith. Rather than an outright satire like 'Starship Troopers,' Warhammer 40k is an unapologetic dive into a representation of cosmic Lovecraftian horror, hereclitianism, nihilism, eschatology brotherhood, bravery, and faith in humanity.
In the setting prayer, devotion, faith, is not merely optional, it is the line between literal mass-demonic possesion, and portals to hell opening into the world. Faith IS life, faith, IS survival in 40k. In 40k, a prayer is made ten times as extreme as prayer would be in the real world. Every thought, every feeling, goes into a metaphysical dimension called the 'Warp.' It is there where all hope or hopelessness culminates, and manifests into the "real" - likened to how Jung thought of the concious and unconcious, but rather on a collective, supernatural scale of a twist on reality. A prayer in 40k could mean the summoning of saints or of demons. A mere act of cowardice, from a humble guardsmen could usher some demonic entity in the warp, created merely from enough cowardice, or enough lust, or of enough envy, collectively shared in a society. Man's thoughts are heavily consequential in the setting. Hence the saying in 40k: "Blessed are the ignorant."
It is no wonder then, that the State is so authoritative about faith it in 40k, a setting where corruption of the mind is so much more a threat, where entire worlds could face demonic corruption.
The irony of 40k steps in what seems to be the dead end of man worshipping man. Humanity finds itself in a sort of existential dead end cycle, where in order to survive, they must pray towards a golden throne, upon which lies the decaying corpse of a formerly living Emperor, who was in fact an atheistic humanist. The throne itself is the technological lifeline of not just the decaying Emperor, but for the whole Imperium. A throne on which a man is kept in a state of prepetual undeath for 10,000 years, made a god over a kingdom he wished to be Godless. Now, only empowered by the prayers and sacrifices made to him by untold trillions of human beings.
It is... poetic, in the sense that we see the futility of the atheistic attitude in such a setting. It reminds me of the famously said truth, that the greatest trick the devil has ever played on man, is for man to not believe in God. And poetic in the other sense, that the distelological and lack of true eschatological state of the imperium itself, is a reflection of the discontents of secularism, humanism, and classical liberalism itself becoming a replacement, of the true eschaton, that being, the Son of God himself, untainted by death itself. The Emperor, is, and always will be for me, a reminder, that a true final eschaton, functions only with the 'Alpha' and 'Omega;' the Son of God. "God is life," then takes on a true telological meaning. The Emperor is, indeed, a reflection of a "messiah," which can provide no true or permanent salvation for the effects of the fall itself on the universe: death and sin, as he himself is a being of undeath.
The saying in Warhammer "there is only war" is a proclamation of the unending disteleology not only of war, but of the fallen reality itself born of man's fall, the unending distelological reality which man can not truly escape in the fallen universe, apart from the only true telos, which is indeed, in Christ, the Son, God made man, in the flesh.
Being an American convert I can say 💯 we ruin everything. Or at least give our best effort. Because like anything else Americans do, we are *obviously the best* ‘at being an Orthodox Christian’. Likely at some point you will see a big push by cyber-doxy to ‘improve’ the Orthodox Church.
God bless and pray for us. And forgive us. Cuz man. Yea. lol
☦️❤️
Same.
Why do people keep attacking western converts in the context of this video when this happened in Russia?
@@simulationbros no one is ‘attacking’ western converts. It’s a critique and a very earned one. Some of the most ridiculous people I’ve encountered on here claim to be the same Orthodox faith as myself yet are more judgmental than many hardline Protestants
Your videos were a huge impetus for my conversion to Orthodoxy , so to see a random twitter comment i made be referenced in one of your videos is surreal haha
This is all the consequence of looking at the religion (in this case Orthodoxy, but could be applied to any other) through the internet lense. Spirit of our time takes things for their face-value, aesthetics is only thing that matters and gratifies instantly, but leaves no further trace and leaves you feeling empty. Indulgence, shallowness and impatience being the main human attributes, most coming from the ego. When those people come for anything (in this case even something serious as religion and spirituality), you get nothing less than a circus - which maybe be a good one word representation of the whole internet as is today.
If the convert wave was happening in Serbia would it be Heroes of Might and Magic instead of Warhammer?
I will be honest, I was initially made aware of Orthodoxy through the edits you see on instagram. I am now a catechumen and have thus seen the much deeper reality of the faith, praise God for that. Although it's cringe, I can't help myself from enjoying the edits that I get, and have to be careful to not let it too deeply influence me.
I was going to say this is another example of ortholarpers pretending they are catholic crusaders but researching it purity seals don't even come from catholicism (much of warhammer's aesthetic comes from catholicism)
Theres not even any christian precedent for this sort of thing.
I feel nothing but cringe
I dont agree with the flag or mixing christ and table top game but i do like Warhammer and i am an orthodox i pray men in ny country continue to learn for the better to keep certain things separate
I'm not familiar with Warhammer fandom, but I heard that people like it because of the very complex and interesting lore. Also agree with you that we shouldn't mix icons with fantasy games' symbols
I'll say this, I've been looking at denominations and one of the things I've heard said about the orthodox church is that when it encountered a new civilization, they would take that which is beautiful and envelop it into that church and reject anything that was satanic. So for me, I'm applying that logic to non orthodox churches on my hunt, but I'll ask you, would the healthier approach, particularly when you have this demographic behaving this way, to actually analyse the 'pagan' aspects of their living, take what's beautiful and then reject the satanic. So if you have a group that venerate Christ and the saints with phonk clips, then is there not something there that can be extracted to include that demographic whilst keeping the correct and true spirit of Christ and the church? God bless.
The boring bit is the part just before you break through into .. almkst like another level.
Keep grinding. It pays off.
Nobody ever said the Christian Way was easy.
Where can I watch your Condreanu videos?
The proper way to understand the attraction to Warhammer is not through analysis of the lore, but rather the aesthetic. The aesthetic is essentially techno and, therefore implicitly Christian. I think the vibe is very similar to young men's appreciation of the crusades... You could focus on the obvious downsides of these things, but it's really about the longing for a return to tradition, enchantment, mythology, fairy tale, order, and hierarchy (with something meaningful, like Christ, at the top). Young men are longing for a world that has an obvious meaningful place for them. Our job as Orthodox is just to give these things to them because we have them.
I'm a Catholic who spent years in the TLM community, but then left after having experiences which left it looking like a white-washed tomb to me. I can understand this, but it's even stranger on our end (in some ways) as many of these 'based' trads are, to some extent, infatuated with Orthodoxy. But not, like... actual Orthodoxy. It was this trend you're talking about, the based larping as a Greek monk in the mountains or some crusader. Their minds are infatuated with the cool factor of both churches, but the heart really doesn't sound transformed. I can't judge, but that's how it always appears.
It sucks because when the traditions of the Catholic/Orthodox Churches are really allowed to penetrate your soul and feed your heart, it's life-changing. This gets in the way of that.
Bro humble down and accept that the novus ordo is a valid liturgy pray for the pope so his confusion and contradictions end
I find more of the issue with certain converts, especially American ones, is Evangelical Corp types who will often take a longer time to mature as they're usually stuck in materialism and emotionalism along with Zio nist brainwashing. Then there's the problem of many young men and men who just never really grew up who don't have their crap together until maybe much later--if at all--compared to half a century ago (not helped due to globalization and outsourcing, of course). I'm not saying women don't have issues they have to work on (my mom has encountered women older than her who have the mind of a teenager), but I see more men in certain spheres of modern Americanist influence who think they can escape their problem through little work on themselves when its absolutely not. Part of this is due to toxicity found with chronically online life and/or poor home-rearing.
Here's my story: I hail from a region in the U.S. that's considered one of the remaining bastions of traditional Americana, i.e. not tainted by hyperindividualism, along with having a culture that's made up of settlers from before the Revolution that tilled the land until the day they died as (we also are still recovering from Hurricane Helene). I grew up around around relatives going back four generations that helped form the values I have today along with my late dad being a minister's kid (a proper Methodist and not what the church became today) who was adopted and well-loved like my mom's side was. While I grew up with some fire-and-brimstone sermons and a tinge of emotionalism, how it was presented inside and outside the church was that of salt-of-the-earth wisdom and love. We could have disagreements on little things but not be dogmatic about it and the extended family dominated my social life (I could've ventured outside my family but I was a shy and to-myself child and did sadly shelter myself, which I've been working to undue). When many of my elders passed away within two years as a teenager, I had to navigate what to do with them passing on and dealing with the modern subversion that has been creeping into many lives today. In light of the vacuum that formed, I began looking deep into the early church, theological academic material, and geopolitics to look at the bigger picture (I was often interested in the sciences and such anyway and was a teacher's pet at times, especially to my observational Irish Catholic biology teacher who I shared the same values with). Being in high school when the Arab "Spring" happened and entering adulthood when ISIS led me more into learning about the native Middle Eastern Christians and the way they've dealt with what life handed to them (it paralleled that of what many skeptics of our own government deal with but on a more brutal scale). I then read about the early church and then the rest is history.
Overall, I looked to the roots of it all and thought to myself, if those in the birthland of Christendom still manage to have a presence today, then what they follow may as well be what I should follow. My political views also became less neocon and more open-minded as the spectrum isn't even a line.
Tecumseh Cristero (who I've been personally friends with for about five years) and you have been instrumental in being a gateway to wisely understanding the Orthodox Church as far as online Orthodoxy is concerned.
Based OrthoLARP Cringe is something I never thought I would here, but if you said to me 4 years ago I would have known exactly what you mean without knowing what any of those words meant
How about a link to "that video"?
One of the ideas I've had is that if the Emperor was ever to die, all those emotions of worship toward him would probably create a new Chaos God in the warp, a Chaos god of Domination or something like that, that represents the dark aspects of the emperor's ironfisted empire of order.
Pretty sure the in universe explanation is like how commiting these and so acts off of belief the emperor basically became a deity problem why he's still alive although im probably wrong because i only know warhammer from youtube
The Emperor is a Christ-like figure in certain elements. He is technically immortal and even if he were killed he would eventually return. He is superior to humans. He is even superior to other people who possess powers similar to his. He was betrayed by those closest and dearest to him. He was "killed" but he remains alive. And ever since, he wards off demons and protects humanity. He also enables humanity faster than light travel by projecting a "star" in the warp dimension. In other (and metaphorical) words, the Emperor guides humanity through hell. He is the literal light in the "grim dark" -ness. You can have your own opinion on all this, but understand that when it comes to writing stories, especially fantasy ones that involve themes of sacrifice and suffering, Christ is impossible to avoid. You will start to draw parallels with Him almost instantly, it's inevitable.
Now as to why 40K fans would be drawn towards the Imperium of Man and by extension the Orthodox faith, I think that the answer is rather straight forward. Christianity in the west has become a teethless limp reed that sways and bends to the slightest winds of societal and worldly change. For example you have western "churches" that are now waving rainbow flags. Nothing more needs to be said on that front even though it could be. So what about the Imperium then? Well, the Imperium is a religious faction that still has teeth. Too many zealous and ravenous teeth perhaps, but it has them regardless. It has blind and unquestioning loyalty to the ideal they worship. And they will sooner all die than embrace heresy and start changing their ways. The Imperium will never wave Chaos flags. It will never abandon the ideas that the Emperor embodies. It will never relativize good and evil. It will never invite their enemies into their own homes. It will never surrender and pathetically grovel. And above all else, it will never lose faith... And that brings us to Orthodoxy - the last remaining form of Christianity with some semblance of a backbone. The only form of Christianity which still holds the Word above the world and its ideologies. Orthodoxy, which by its very nature cannot start to change its rules on a random whim of modern trends. For example, look at Mount Athos and the EU's push to get them to bend the knee. That's precisely what western people crave. Conviction. Same conviction the martyrs of old had. They need this because you cannot have faith in a religion once it becomes apparent that its priesthood doesn't have faith in their God.
Lastly, lore wise, you're correct that the Imperium is an intolerant and fascist faction. However within the context of the setting they have to be. Anything less means total annihilation. This is not a story of "humans bad, aliens good" nor vice versa, but one of "everyone bad". The moment the Imperium becomes tolerant is the moment the following happens: The demons will corrupt and tear it apart from within, while the orks and tyranids will slaughter and eat the remaining survivors. The stragglers will then be enslaved into a lifetime of torture by the eldar and the rest will be obliterated by the necrons. So yeah, the Imperium is bad because it has to be. Because that's the setting: "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war".
Finding balance seems quite impossible.
Can you actually give your thoughts on Trench Crusade?
Warhammer is a word which I have heard probably hundreds of times but I know absolutely nothing about it and intend to keep it that way.
I mostly agree. Wathammer emperor cringe like you said. And I believe we should love everyone. But I do believe we have to defend our homeland. Yes we have to love our neighbors, but we are betraying our actual neighbors if we allow pagan raiders to invade our village. I also believe that in certain cases (such as countries that preform child sacrifice) it would be morally wrong to not destroy/conquer that society because of how much God hates child sacrifice. But yeah I agree Warhammer cringe because pagans are cringe 👍
U are pagan
I agree. I also feel like this seeps into the sentiment of those who think they are Varangians being called up to defend or retake Constantinople or some sort of Kornilov Regiment soldier defending Russian Orthodoxy against bolshevism. Come on man.
As someone with borderline personality disorder and ADHD traits, I very much appreciate everything that has been said about "boring" mundane spirituality. I often tell myself that I am not running anywhere from Orthodoxy just because of the intercessions of my guardian angel, patron saint and the grace of God! 😉
...
And now I'm itching to start getting interested in Warhammer! I must resist! 😀
...
Serious question: Could you talk a bit about your views on bioethics and vaccinations, since we're on the subject of controversy?
Specifically: after my conversion, I got vaccinated against covid several times and my priest had no problem with it (he himself took the stance that he would not give any recommendations to believers in this regard, he got vaccinated himself on the advice of his doctor). Then I moved to another town where there is a sympathetic younger priest who is an avid anti-vaxxer. I disagree with him on that, or rather on the part about whether covid vaccines rather help or hurt (I'm the analytical type who prefers cold statistics to personal testimony).
However, my priest considers it a sin to knowingly use a product that used cells from an aborted embryo in its development, even though the abortion occurred decades ago. I certainly agree that this is a spiritual issue, and I am sorry that there is no covid vaccine currently on the market that did not use cells from the HEK 293 lineage in its development. But then I looked at the flu vaccine and some vaccines have also been developed using these cells. And also the hepatitis A vaccine that I've been inoculated with...
Basically, I don't think it's even possible to trace all or even most ethically questionable practices used in medical science. Much knowledge comes from now unacceptable human experimentation, animal cruelty, etc.
The saying goes: ask your priest. If my priest calls something a sin, OK, then I will obey.
He may be wrong, but obedience seems to me to be more important than health considerations. But at the same time, as a person who is used to thinking things through, I suffer a bit from this 😉 .
I am very interested in your opinion!
To be honest I used to love war hammer 40000 oh so much just to realize it was it was a bunch of fantasy garbage; I left it behind after I embraced the orthodox church. I didn't realize this was even a problem, I thought it was just me.
One of your best videos, Bojan.
No doubt difficult for many to hear.
I will never be a pacifist. In fact I will go further and say that no Christian should be pacifist. This was beautifully encapsulated by the Orthodox Christian Ivan Ilyin in his book 'Resistance to Evil By Force.'
This rant seems to be at the foundation a critique of young Orthodox converts who are immature in their faith. It is however a weak jab at the reality of being a man in a fallen world - which at times necessitates struggle of force, not of pacifism.
Another pagan
I converted a few years back from atheism and I honestly feel like I'm larping sometimes when I am trying to be sincere. 😂
Hi Bojan, I wanted to ask if you could make a video regarding Christian persecution in Malaysia and Lebanon, I know they are happening but I feel so far removed from it as I am in America and know nobody from these places or even near them
@@kaisercollins3097 Um, why don't you ask Bojan first? Look, I don't like Zelensky or Putin but I can say that at least Putin has more class and Zelensky is at most just a puppet placed in by foreign influence. I'm neutral and look at the bigger picture. Grow up!
Also, on the topic of you mentioning "literal toys", I wonder what you'd have to say about Funko pops, action figures, and anime figures. Are they modern-day idols as described in Revelation 9:20?
I would basically say that for an adult to use and obsess over such things is idolatry. An adult should not be defined by other characters that don’t exist and obsess over them. When I mean by obsess I mean by using these things to fulfill one’s own character, as though the objects are alive and can be a part of their lives and fill an empty gap.
Politics is about power in the world and doesn't belong in the church imo. Of course, we're all subject to politics in some manner being alive and in the world, but if you're "coming to Christ" only for your politics, you're doing it for the wrong reasons.
40K is "based" in a sense, but largely it was written with intent to make fun of religious values. Serious lack of discernment in many people. I suppose if that wasn't the case Jesus would have had an easier time on earth the first time....
"Emperor is fighting demons". Yeah well... In the WoW universe, Sergeras fought demons for thousands of years... Look where he went from there..."
Great talk Boki Brate!
Are you, or are you not the Bojan in question?
I had to do a double take. I thought I had come to a video about Orthobro LARPing and you started talking about 40k. 😂
You understand 40k perfectly, the emperor is the big bad of the setting
Personally I am not subscribing to one donomination of christianity. I dont go to church besides on christmas day. I read the bible when I'm alone in my room late at night, and my prayers are only to god, and I dont ever write them down or speak them out loud. I believe that christ did help me get my life back together and allthough I sin even now, I do truly want to grow closer to god. The whole discussion about what is based what is cringe or how you live out your faith is counterproductive in my opinion. I too like warhammer and I like to write my characters with christian values or ressembling certain virtues. Furthermore integrating christianity into our interest isnt anything new. Even Armor adorned with christian symbols isnt knew Its been arround since the middle ages. I think that all these fudes between the different christian denominations miss the point. We are chistians and we should strive to follow gods Moral compass not the ones of our own interpretation. And we shouldnt try to determine what is based cringe or whatever, we should each look at ourself and ask us, are we truly without sin and are we in a position to lecture or judge others... No.
Hear me out: State mandated grass touching would solve like 99% of the chronically online anti-social behavior caused by young people completley overstimulated by hyperreality.
A lot of it is just how interesting it is.
However, I definitely think it has to be separated. The Imperium of man are humanity however and they're dealing with these horrors. I think it's ok to admire just as spiritual warfare and or even self-defense because that's what it is in the context of that universe. They're strict because if they weren't, they would die.
Is real life like this? No, so obviously the answer couldn't be to emulate something that is like this. Because it isn't just mirroring facism but communist juche type thinking, I mean the dictator in it is an atheist that gets worshipped (like Stalin or Mao). But especially with all those things I think it's approaching idol worship in of itself.
Last weekend I went to an Orthodox monastery in Maryland (it sucked) and there was a new convert there being received that Saturday. His name was Felix but he was given the new name Dionysius, obviously a product of Orthodox fetishism and Eastern cultural imperialism because he had no idea about St. Felix. It also became obvious through conversation that he was a Dyerbro "based convertodox" who will no doubt experience a faith crisis or apostatize in a couple years.
Also please consider watching The Tabellion's video on warhammer orthodox purity seals. It addresses the pagan worldly idea of power for sure.
ua-cam.com/video/ig5WNJI6PUw/v-deo.html
As a woman with proper high standards that she herself holds to, I don't want a man like that to even touch me. Just as Bojan said in the video, it's time to grow up. Most of these problems with men are often due to American Christianity 101.
@@HeatherGreenjsyk And it's basically an overcorrection of what they see to be problems in Protestantism, right I understand.
Pray for him
@@dirk1998 Not wrong
While this definitely is a problem I think people should realize that a big cause of this is identity crisis, a lot of guys need/want to be a part of something and when the toxic American culture does not satisfy them they become obsessed with another, I don’t think it’s inherently American values that influence them into acting like this, but hating it and becoming obsessed with something else.
Nothing wrong with being inspired and incorporated into another culture but I think we both know how this is different…
My theory is that the emperor in Warhammer is supposed to be the antichrist
I understand you point against mimicking Warhammer, but should Orthodox Christians not like Lord of the Rings, Marvel & DC superheroes, Star Wars, Chronicle of Narnia, et al? What about Christians making up Orthodox Christian superheroes, comic books. Are you against Johnathan Paegeau's Orthodox Christian comic book 'God's'Dog'? Do you oppose Orthodox Christian soldiers waving flags with the Image of Edessa?
He didn't say Orthodox aren't allowed to like those things, he just points out they should not be mixed in with your personal spiritual life
God bless you Bojan. There is a lot of wisdom in this video.
Why aren't bishops doing their jobs??? They are supposed to be the Apostles in the modern times??? Instead they have let all sorts "represent" Orthodoxy,......
Have you been a Bishop before, is your hair grey or white like theirs?
Perhaps you should pray more for them.
@@dirk1998the catechumens do nothing to tackle larping I. Western Eastern Orthodox churches
@@quiqueglass6738 perhaps you should pray more for them.
Orthodoxy is about cleaning your own heart. If you think it's some kind of political thing, or some trinket to appease our vainglory, then you're missing the mark.
we've lived to see the fortnite-ification of Christianity
I can only imagine what Jesus would say about this particular subject. I find it distasteful and tone deaf, I’m not an Orthodox Christian nor have I been anything but I know that Jesus would not like anything like that.
My brother in Christ, receiving pushback for a bad take is not hateful, and not every Christian, who takes their faith seriously is a LARPer.
I know the difference between pushback and hate, and yes, I did receive actual hate for it.
I never said every Christian who takes their faith seriously is a LARPer, or any for that matter.
Also, no bad takes detected.
The servant of God Onion has made a rant video.😂
Yea, this is so cringe dude. What the heck is with mixing this stuff?
It's weird to me how many idolize the saints and the monastics, but don't even pray. You'd think they would want to emulate their idols more.
there's a giant powerful country in eastern europe that co-opts christianity into it's ideology of traditional™ values™ but western converts are somehow to blame. 'ortholarp' wouldn't appear as it stands if there wasn't one exact goverment that larps as a last-stand-against-satan-katehon (hence the wh40k parallels, not 'loss of masculinity that warhammer appeals to' as some theorize here). the problem is not western converts 'using toys in their spirituality' but actual living people who slap wax seals with psalms on their guns that they use to actually kill other living people, imo that's more of a concern than some teenager's shitposting on xeeter
Thank you.
I feel like this should be addressed to the Russian church and not American converts.
Not church, sergianism