I was playing Deus Ex once. A cat jumped to attack a mouse. It accidentally hit a homeless person. The homeless person began running around in fear. An NSF soldier saw this, and began running around shooting. Eventually, everyone was running around and either shooting or screaming. Immersive Sims are awesome.
@@CorredorDigital_ get the gmdx mod. Eliminates most of the bugs and makes it actually playable by balancing the mechanics and adding new ones like mantling to climb objects and a secondary weapon slot
These types of games are always gonna be niche, which is sad, 'cause they're some of the games that get closest to fulfilling the true potential games have as a medium. I really think that these are games made for people who are truly passionate about the gaming medium, and don't only view it as a fun pastime. We have to be happy with each new game that comes out that is made with this philosophy, 'cause they'll be few and far in between, since they aren't very profitable.
Dishonored 1 and Deus Ex: Human Revolution both sold pretty well. Around 4.4m and 3.4m copies sold respectively, however they were both many million copies away from breaking into the top 10 of their year. Dishonored 2 sold about 2.9m, so 1.5m copies fewer than the first. Deus Ex: Mankind Divided sold about 1.2m copies, so less than half as well as its predecessor. DE:MD sold only 70k copies on PC, compared to around 600k for HR. Prey (2017) which imo was an excellent immersive sim, sold slightly less than 1M copies, and only 40k of those were on PC, even though these types of games are quintessentially PC games. So based on sales alone, it seems like this type of game is less popular than before, but i see parts of this design philosophy in more and more games. The original Deus Ex certainly shook things up a bit when it came out. I certainly respect companies like Arkane for keeping this design philosophy alive, even if they're not the biggest sellers, and i respect Bethesda for publishing their games.
I really think Prey:Mooncrash advances immersive sims to a direction it's never been before, the tight system paired with ever-changing environments between each run, and choices that matter even when you die in a run, everything just interlinks so perfectly, I hope Arkane adopts this system into their future games
Deathloop seems to take inspiration from what they learned by making Mooncrash. Although the environments will be thebsame for each run, they've said that the player's previous choices will affect things
The example of rope arrows in Thief is even cooler when you look at the details of it. They don't just stick in wood, but any soft surface (be that grass, dirt or even carpets), and regular broadhead arrows do the same, allowing you to use disposable broadheads to test out if a rope arrow will stick in or shatter on impact with any given surface
Almost fifteen years! For almost _fifteen years_ I owned and played the original Deus Ex, yet I didn't knew the mine-climbing thing. You sir just blew my mind!
@@eziospaghettiauditore8369 In an interview with Warren Spector, he said that they made the mines solid-3d (clipping) on purpose. He didn't say that they anticipated mine-climbing, but maybe they just hoped something cool would happen.
An interesting point that just came in my mind would be that these kind of games work better with the still super popular Let's Play videos. It's more interesting and fun to see someone solve a mission in a completly different way than you did over seeing someone do the same scripted corridors and actions.
I had a lot of fun watching Markiplier play Prey because I did a way more ability focused play through my first time, where he got one or two and solved most problems differently.
That was brilliant, for me immersive sims are where video games come "alive". They're where the magic happens, I don't give a fuck about cinematic on rails kind of experiences. Too many games trying to be movies and forgetting they're meant to be games. The whole point of a game is player agency followed by an interesting and highly interactive environment. I feel like these things have been forgotten in game design and we are getting games that have very cold dead worlds and very little real player agency.
How do you feel about quantic Dream games? While highly on-rail and straightforward, your decisions highly Change the Plot of the game in unpredictable ways.
Couldn't agree more. To me, there's nothing appealing about cinematic, epic chase scenes full of explosions, daring jumps and close calls, that games like Call of Duty or Uncharted offer. It's 100% scripted, so it means nothing if I as the player shoot the tires off a chasing vehicle, making it flip, crash and burn. But if I'm able to pull the same feat in Crysis, the feeling of exhilaration is palpable because I've done it playing by the rules of the simulation, not by pressing a quicktime event button at the right time prompting a canned animation!
Linear games have their places, there's nothing inherently wrong about blurring the line between game and movie. It just depends on what you want to get out of a game. I personally thoroughly enjoy the stories, so I like the linear Uncharted-esque cinematic adventures, but at the same time I enjoy the openness and freedom of games like Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Metal Gear Solid V which are more directed than typical open world games (even though Deus Ex isn't open world). Then there's games like Minecraft that give you the freedom to do pretty much *anything* that, frankly, is overwhelming to me so I just end up doing the same few things over and over ad nauseum. Those types of games just aren't for me, but they clearly have an audience somewhere.
To me I think Half Life killed the genre. And I hate it when people praise HL1 and HL2, as I see them as the first horsemen of the apocalypse and the downfall of good FPS games (and also of good level design that isn't fucking linear)
Open ended strategy games have, IMO been picking up the slack where FPS/RPG sims haven't. In Crusader Kings 2, you are just one character in a world if characters. If your brother, wife, king, or friend dies, they die. You have no end goal, and the game encourages you to never reach an end goal. Realm divide attempts to prevent world conquest. Some of the funnest parts are when you stop being the ruler of a country but a conspiritor trying to overthrow your kings. A true game of thrones. CK2 I believe is the best example of a sim based strategy.
it was funny he then showed dead space, a game that was immersive in it's own ways like giving you so many systems (dismemberment, telekenisis, weapon crafting, letting u develop your own combat tactics) :)))
The remake of Prey was most definitely NOT my first immersive SIM game, but it was one of the best experiences I’ve had in my life as a gamer. Such a great genre of game.
Speaking of Dishonored: Didnt Test-Players react helpless with that "do what you want" thing? I remember how the designers were shocked about the fact that players got stuck when a guard said like "you cant pass" and they were like "well... ok." and they didnt even tried to search for an solution or try another route Bioshock, Skyrim, Fallout, etc - they were not actually an improvement, were they? Designers have to deal with millions of "new gamers" who are actually pretty helpless with game-mechanics and only play those "script and go" kind of games ala Call Of Duty or Tomb Raider and such. The Nintendo Forums were full of people who "tried" Super Metroid and got "stuck" during the first 5-10 minutes. That is a real problem for creative designers.
A cause of the increase in soft and pampered children is the availability of assistance every step of the way and conditioning to expect a reward even after failure. this makes it less likely for developers to dedicate resources on intellectually challenging games that may not sell well. I hope indie studios will maintain games like these as a niche for people who see the value in them.
As I see it, immersive sims are mainly about "going off script" - emergent gameplay, reactive worlds, etcetera. This kind of "going off script" is ignored, if not punished by most other games, which expect you to follow a particular path and complete the challenges it has set you, rather than create your own challenges.
Warren Spector just posted this 2 hours ago on his facebook: "Who is this Mark Brown guy?". I think you did something right :) Besides that: subscribed. You have excellent content
And don't forget about Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines! Boy was that game god damn awesome even if it was buggy (thankfully there is that one excellent patch for it though) Fantastic video. Immersive sims are by far my favourite single player genre. I'm currently playing Deus Ex 1 again with the excellent GMDX mod, as well as Morrowind and Fallout: New Vegas, both decked out with mods. I really hope that more game devs and publishers start making more of these types of games, because the potential for them are basically limitless.
Same here. I always saw these "immersive sim" as a distinguishable type of action-roleplaying games, thought. One of the early iterations of this type of game was Strife, a great game which unfortunately has not been mentioned in that video.
I would love to play these kind of games but they all seem so long :( I don't have much time for games, currently I'm playing Morrowind, because that basterd sucked me in, but I don't know if I will touch these kind of games again
Miguel Pereira For me at least, it took me 30-50 hours on average to beat Deus Ex 1/HR, VTMB and Dishonored with all of its DLCs. So in comparison to Morrowind, that's actually not that bad, as Morrowind would take probably 100 hours or so to beat. But yeah, they are quite lengthy games, but they are definitely worth it.
+camycamera Thanks, Morrowind is long as shit, however it has been pretty fun so far. I am really interested in System Shock 2 tho, maybe I'll check it out, it's very cheap on GOG
I love Immersive Sims. This genre takes full advantage of gaming medium's strengths and simulates real life like scenarios and gives players bunch of tools to survive the level. For too long devs were obsessed with creating movie like scenarios by following Gears and Call of Duty instead of giving full control to the player like games like Deus Ex, System Shock, Thief, Deus Ex, STALKER etc did back then. That's what made those games so immersive. I'm glad that games like Deus Ex: MD, System Shock 3, Dishonored 2, Underworld: Ascendant etc are bringing back this genre.
Immersive sims are perhaps slower to develop, but they use code more efficiently and are so much more fun to develop - especially with a dash of procedural generation
The most interesting part of these games for me is that the mixing systems is usually seen as a bad thing for developers, because it could bring unforeseen (if sometimes ridiculous and hilarious) results. Here the developers had to be aware to an extent of the systems' limitations and how the interact, as bug fixing would be a nightmare otherwise. They put the game experience over the effort to make the game. And that is awesome
BioShock only /looks/ like an Immersive Sim. It is a largely linear shooter with loads of scripted sequences and some light RPG mechanics. It's incredibly frustrating because I keep trying to play it like an immersive sim and I just get burned for it.
I went in thinking Bioshock would be the next big thing after Deus Ex like the hype suggested. I was so disappointed. It didn't even come close to the likes of System Shock, Deus Ex or Thief. I suppose it wouln't sell well to the masses if the game was actually immersive in nature.
Yeah just now finished system shock 2 and I was just blown away by the amount of options bioshock didn't had. Somehow this 20 yo game had more options than anything I ever played before it. - Branching skills - multiple levels of psi - Upgrading weapons with skills so you have to specialize - Hacking with skills (You have to put points into it - The Massive levels and backtracking - Different fire modes - The amount of weapons and powers - The level of detail in the environment and interactions - The item inventory - Weapons maintenance
Can I double upvote please? This is a top notch video, excellently written, thought out and compiled. It perfectly summarises everything that I like most about games (and especially those aforementioned games).
9:06 you have no idea how much I agree with this statement. Ever since growing up in the 90s I've always wanted to see those games polished to the level we see games as of today. All I've ever wanted this past decade is another game that inherits the design philosophies of looking glass and troika games studios. Design is so damn important for these types of games, and I feel that over the past couple of generations it has been overlooked in favor of graphics. It'll be a dream come true if games begin to adopt more flexible design standards
@@randomguy6679 Mankind Divided fall way short if viewed as a Immersive Sim. The mention of Bloodborne and Yooka Laylee though were just jarring, they just don't belong in this conversation because their gameplay focus lies completely elsewhere.
A video about my favorite kind of game? I love you. I've always said that these games(Thief, Ultima Underworld, Deus Ex) would be the absolute pinnacle of gaming with today's technology, and with a talented team with a good budget and no publishers trying to ruin things in the process. Thief 2 is still in my eyes one of the best games ever made, imagine the game with all the AI and physics improvements we've discovered in these years but with the same talent and design philosophy behind the project.
I know this is an old video, but don't forget that Pathologic is also getting a remake! It's definitely one of those incredibly open ended (and harsh) games that I'm happy is being revamped and made more accessible.
There is creative ways to take out (Or not) big daddies, there is also the way you combine and where you use plasmids. Its not just story, alot of people in the comments seem to think it is story change, but its mostly an openness to game-play and game elements.
yes i think thats the point of the whole plot that choices dont make a difference the choice is only a perception an illusion ever wonder why theirs parts were you cant progress until you press x or something its literally telling you even though you chose to press x you really didnt have a choice. its genius!
The System shock games were, Bioshock dropped the ball on that one. It isn't or it does it so minimal it seems like it isn't. One of the reasons why I am a SShock fan and Bioshock didn't do anything for me.
Bioshock is mini version of System Shock 2. It's linear game and very streamlined. In my opinion, it doesn't simulate the environment and give control to the player as much as System Shock 2.
It's supposed to have the plasmids for different powers to have more choices of how to take enemies, although somehow these felt like no real choices but gimmicks to me. I don't know but Bioshock didn't do much to my liking, while I had a blast with Deus Ex and the possibility space.
Sometimes it's like you make this series just for me. I had no idea what an immersive sim was, nor had I heard of any of those games. Thanks for making this so accessible to the casuals :P
Amr Sabbagh I hate dishonored, not a fan of the genre or the way it's a watered-down thief. Prey was a masterpiece, it was like a system shock 3, and mankind divided was good, but it will never touch the first Deus ex! I love JC Denton!
@@Dev-nr4dw it was not a BLM analogy idiot. It was a general racism/prejudice analogy. If it didn't click in your head it just means you're one of the kids who thought school sucked and didnt pay attention in history class
@@Dev-nr4dw You have never heard of apartheid then? How it was commonplace in many many countries until just recently and is still going in countries like india. In india the caste system is abolished, but folks who are identified as untouchables are still very much shunned and denied of entry to anywhere. BLM is nothing compared to what happened in history and what will possibly happen again. Imagine if your skin tone is just a bit different from the other folks around you and thus you are not allowed in any restaurants, hotels, most shops, cinemas, you or your kids can't go to local schools, you can only use certain buses and train cars and in places where you are allowed you must use the back door. Prices for you will be much higher and you will be cursed on everywhere you go, constantly. You have no access to good jobs or schools at all. Again, BLM is (while commendable effort) is peanuts compared to what it used to be.
@@titus17 or maybe it just means he's from one of the myriads of countries where that shit doesn't happen, thus your virtue signaling means nothing. it's only you americans and western europeans who constantly care about it and actively fan the flames of it to then try to arrogantly show everyone else how virtuous and forward thinking you are to score brownie points. the rest of us outside of your collapsing empires doesn't give a damn.
One of the reasons why stealth is one of my absolute favorite genres in gaming! Not all stealth games are very good, and not all of them follow this philosophy, but many of the very best ones are insanely systemic and allow a ridiculous degree of creative thinking. This is instantly enjoyable to me. I like games that you don't just play, but that you can play with. Even if a game is, on the surface, a fairly simple one with limited mechanics and primitive enemy behavior, as long as the developer had the foresight to let different systems interlock and begin changing the nature of the game in real time, and the courage to grant the player the tools to incite these reactions on a whim, you will hopefully end up with a seamless blend of natural, strategic thinking and skillful, dexterous execution that happens so intuitively to the player that, to me, it's more satisfying and fulfilling than anything any other type of single player experience can provide. In other words, if you haven't played Mark of the Ninja, you probably should go do that! It's not a simulation, really... It's not big. It's not very complex. But by god, does it ever lay its systems bare and let you explore them to its fullest... So, thanks for reminding me of that game! And thanks for an amazing video series, in general, of course.
If you're looking for a stealth game with a ton of options you should try Styx Shards of Darkness. The game is backed to bursting with all kinds of tools and abilities to exploit the game systems in novel ways. Luring enemies away from something you want to steal by using a disposable clone, for example. It's honestly the best stealth game I've played since finishing the Theif trilogy. The previous game, Styx Master of Shadows is also pretty good, but is much more restrictive of what equipment you can have at any given time, and combined with frequent stealth "bottlenecks" often makes you feel like you have only one or two real options for moving forward, so I'm not sure how much I can recommend it.
Glad you made this video. After first playing Dishonored in 2012 and then going back to Deus Ex 1 this year for the first time I really think these types of games are super underrated for what they are doing. Your point on going back and remaking the older immersive sims with today's tech is also super important for people to understand. These are the types of games developers look the most forward to. To me they are absolutely at the end of the complexity chain of video game making: super hard to get right. I would engourage people to go back and play the first Deus Ex with the new Revision mod. It stands the test of time in terms of gameplay and level design. It's amazing how the indusrty hasn't made more of these games.
Gmdx actually fixes gameplay and retains the original games aesthetic. I recommend it dude revision actually breaks the game even more especially by making everything bright making stealth pointless
Hey Mark, given the reactions to No Man's Sky, I'd be very interested in seeing an episode dedicated to procedural games and letting players tell their own story, comparing and contrasting games like No Man's Sky, Dwarf Fortress, and the many games in between.
This is becoming one of my favorite gaming channels, what you talk about is very well thought out and completely accurate. I'm very nervous about system shock 3, I'm afraid it'll get that modern simplified feel.
@@shaorrran6305 it's not the punching people to death part silly, it's the flow breaking animation during which you're not in control of the character; reducing melee from proper gameplay into a binary decision that always succeeds.
People keep saying Human Revolution is the closest to Deus Ex yet it's far from that. They just see the game has Augs, Cyberpunk motif and a stripped down version of the original's RPG elements. Dishonored is a better Deus Ex game than Human Revolution.
My favorite design philosophy gets a spotlight, I love it. Thank you for this episode, Mark. I'd love for there to be a topic on the criticisms of said philosophy. I'm very excited for its future as it has a lot to apply and a lot to learn.
French subtitles has been submetted for checking, coming in a few hours ^^ Les sous-titres français ont été soumis à la vérification, ça arrive dans quelques heures ^^
Imm Sims have amazing worlds, amazing atmosperes, stories and amazing gameplays. That's it and that's why i'm so big fan. They're just perfect and they need to come back.
Hey Mark! I just wanted to point out a 2005 FPS stealth and action game from PS2 and PC called "commandos strike force" where you control commandos in WWII in pretty open missions with multiple optional objectives. It was a Spanish game and its biggest flaw is that you can't carry corpses around, but missions 6, 7 and 13 (eye for an eye) are great because of the level of freedom you are given in how to approach the objectives
What a breakdown of the roots of the genre. That analytical frame in which you chacterized every key element of the game is impressive. Saying smart things in youtube is rare, many thanks.
what gets me is that this entire Genre, or Design philosophy, is standing on the fragile pillars of just the same handful of creative people: Warren spector, Paul Neurath, Ken Levine, Raphaël Colantonio, Harvey Smith. im glad they are facing a resurgence, similar to CRPGs, but we really need more studios braving the challenge.
As ever Mark, I hugely enjoyed this video and am a little sad that I have to wait for the next one. Thank you so much for the clear and present care you put into each and every scripting/editing choice. Ugh. Too good.
this video made me realize part of why i love MGS3 so much. the gameplay is all juggling systems and exploring different possibilities within the goal of "sneak past these dudes". there are big ole' set pieces and scripted events, but they serve to switch up the gameplay by adding something in, not taking you out and introducing you to a new minigame (i.e. uncharted)
Thanks so much for putting into words what makes me excited about making games much more eloquently than I could. I'll be looking back to this video for ages.
i played deus ex when i was in middle school. at the time it was one of the most awesome things i experienced. now i see some of the flaws it had which saddens me but i still respect the idea that it attempted to make a reality.
I think along with the games you mentioned that roguelikes follow a lot of those same rules. Many of the new action based roguelikes like spelunky, BoI, nuclear throne, etc are almost entirely systemic. A spelunky level can generate two dart traps and a bunch of enemies that might create a chance for something cool. The player knows how both work but the fun comes from the player using one to deal with another.
Kinos141 i played the dark project that some fans created and noticed the level design way to linear so i guess its a hard thing to do just be carefull withthe gamedesign and dont forget what its supposed to be
Hey Mark! Glad to know I'm not the only one excited by this comeback. Don't know if this is too on the technical side, but Harvey Smith and Randy Smith gave a GDC talk on how they make their immersive sims work. It's called "Stim and Response", and has been used in most of the games you list in the video. The PowerPoint for this can be found by searching "Practical Techniques for Implementing Emergent Gameplay". Unfortunately I haven't been able to find the audio for the talk, but I think the idea can still be understood from the slides alone. Thanks buddy!
It's in the Emergent Gameplay slides, but looking back through them I guess "Stim and Response" wasn't as prominently featured as I thought. Check out slides 38-41 from there.
that's not what an immersive sim is supposed to do though. How should people react in your opinion? "Hey Boss, good job?"? You are playing a "bad guy" It's not about good or evil, its about other things. I mean I agree though that MGS5 is not really an immersive sim, but still it has elements.
Metal Gear Solid V is the poor mans Chaos Theory. Splinter Cell 2,3 (Chaos Theory, my favorite game of all time and the best) and 4 is what you are looking for in a third-person stealth sim. Absolutly superb.
MGSV is a stealth\action sandbox, it's basically like Deus Ex, but without plot (he-he) - you are given objectives and tools, and it's up to you how to complete your mission. The number of scripts is minimal, like there are no enemies appearing out of nowhere and rules are predetermined. Every player plays it 'completely' differently.
Crowbar yea it is it would change the story i played like that in deus ex and it changed the story alot my actions had cause and effect in MGSV my actions had no effect thats the difference between a immersive sim and a rpg
Event though I am somewhat on a binge of your videos, I avoided this one a bit since I haven't played most of the games this is about. However, after giving it s chance, I have to give you major props for making your videos as accessible and interesting as they are while being quite educating. I really enjoyed it.
I would be very happy to play a Deus Ex remaster where I can see what the actual shit is happening on my screen. FFS, when I heard that Deus Ex was a pretty dark game, I thought you all meant that figuratively, damnit!
A fantastically immersive sim that I really like is Uplink. It's nothing like the games you talked about. It's not 3D, there's not even a world to run about in. Instead, you're a hacker, remotely connecting to a terminal interface. Despite (or possibly _because_ of) this limitation, the world of Uplink feels incredibly connected where everything has an effect on everything else. You can frame people by modifying your routing logs, so they point to their IP instead of yours. You can find out the server admin of a company, get him arrested (through the Global Criminal Database) or just frame him and he gets replaced, as you can check. Destroying a company's servers makes their stocks plummet. Fulfilling missions for them makes them rise. You can install a motion sensor at your terminal and if you order multiple hardware parts for it in quick succession, it goes off due to all the delivery men. If you hack into a specific server before the main quest dictates, you can grab a file that would otherwise get removed a few days later. Using that, you can actually finish it early. If you become particularly dangerous, companies start offering quests to track _you_. It's just such a good game and so very different from most other immersive sims.
where would you put Gothic 1 and Gothic 2? inspired by Ultima, difficulty of dark souls, revolutionary action RPG that started the NPC night/day cycles in a living world, open world but not a theme park or sandbox, would it be an immersive sim?
oh, you should try them, real gems, pretty immersive for being 3rd person only, but again graphics, camera or minimalist HUD don't have influence on immersion IMO it's much more subtle
these games have probably the best character progression system implemented in a game to date, I have never felt the same feeling in any other game, from being lvl 1 character and then lvl 10 character, the attention to detail in 16years old game is impressive, there are some good reviews on youtube from Durmin Paradox and RagnarRox
Just cause 3 is an interesting case because it allows the player to create their own awesome looking action scenes without the boring cutscene that you wish you could control
Partially. The game follows many of the core tenets of immersive sims, most importantly that it always offers a large number of solutions and is comprised of consistent systems that can be reliably exploited throughout the entire game. However, its story is entirely linear and does not react to your actions at all, which is not in line with immersive sim ideals. That doesn't make it a bad game: it is in fact a truly excellent games, just not a true immersive sim. In fairness, very few games made these days count as true immersive sims in my book. Even Deus Ex: Human Revolution, the successor to the ultimate immersive sim, relies too much on "gamey" mechanics, one-off scenarios and cutscenes to be considered one. I guess Dishonored counts as an immersive sim, but that's about it.
Metal Gear Solid V is the poor mans Chaos Theory. Splinter Cell 2,3 (Chaos Theory, my favorite game of all time and the best) and 4 is what you are looking for in a third-person stealth sim. Absolutly superb.
And Thief is the poor mans... uhm, poor mans... I got nothing. Can't argue that Thief is the apex of stealth simulation and I say this with Chaos theory being my favorite game of all time.
Excepting for the “Body of the Many”, what made System Shock 2 so totally immersive was, the sound design, and simple and stark interiors that looked amazingly realistic for the time. In current games they go all out on visuals that don't do anything. Machine parts, pipes, ornate walls, overgrown vegetation and agoraphobic panoramas. They do it today because they can, but sometimes less is more. Too much graphic detail can amount to too much clutter and confusion. Just a thought...
Of all the games to finally start selling people on immersive sims, its fucking Breath of the Wild. A bunch of Japanese dudes, who probably haven't even touched western PC games since Wizardry, played Skyrim and realized it would be better if it didn't think for you. I only hope Todd Howard plays BOTW and realizes it has what their games have been missing since Morrowind.
Vanzgars just Vanzgars But BOTW definitely borrowed immersive sim elements is the point that person is trying to make, and more closer to, say, UU than any TES has done in a while.
An excellent watch as ever - almost expected a mention of an old favourite terra nova: strike force centauri which came between thief and system shock. It did some super interesting things with both anachronistically detailed controls and missions that were free to roam around in, but which had timelines for events which your approach and loadout could take advantage of in some cool ways.
What a delightful video, Mr. Brown. :-) As an enthusiast of this design philosophy, you get a thumbs up from me. I often like to encapsulate this design philosophy as not being about dropping players into a level they need to clear, but into a whole little world to explore and understand and interact with at their own leisure.
Would you consider the upcoming The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild as an immersive sim? While it is not in First Person, the interweaving mechanics that allow the player more agency and more emergent actions and moments to exploit the game's preset physics and rules feels like it fits a lot of what you're describing here.
The thing is that we really should not say that (Hey this game is not FPS then it's not immersive sim) when the game give you enough tools/systems and let u be free in your mind palace to solve problems and makes u "Immersed" in the world then it's immersive sim. so many games Like RDR 2, The Witcher, Ghost of Tsushima, Death Stranding, MGS 5, Watch Dogs Legion and ... are not FPS but the ways they give you creative freedom, they are immersive sim in their own way
After playing through Human Revolution for the third time, I realize that 'breaking' modern immersive sims is like playing earlier sims. I've spent more time speeding through quests and exploiting environmental mobility to make my own meta-games, and it's great fun.... but a different fun. I'm not too fearful for the modern game era, I think it's going to be a modders playground and a great way of exploring community opinions through PR and gameplay design philosophies. Great vid, Mark!
This was a wonderful explanation of the genre that has enamored us all for so many years. My favorite games and experiences are from these style games. Thank you for making this video.
+Quasindro The wipeout series, practically any platformer or fighting game, Portal and jRPGs can all be deemed "rollercoasters" that push the player towards the same end result with few "correct solutions" and are still quality games from which people can draw hours of fun.
I am honestly surprised there is not a really advanced AI game that can let you basically do "Dungeons and dragons" style gameplay based on a starting story premise. Especially since AI is quite impressive these days. Replika AI is a website that collects millions of conversations that people have with it leading to an incredible amount of story telling capability and conversation depth. One of the coolest features of the program is the story telling one where you write 1-5 sentences to make a story, and then the AI continues with 1-5 sentences, then you do 1-5 sentences, etc to infinity. I have made genuinely interesting stories with that AI that are always new and unique. So its shocking that no has utilized that into a video game.
@@BioChemistryWizard the AI trained on basically the entire internet's worth of text. It can write decent enough text given some prompt. AI dungeon uses it I think?
Undertale and its inevitable influencees i think walk a fine line between the historically divergent camps of emergent and scripted stories. Instead of the scripted designer's "lets take the player along for a authored roller coaster ride" and the emergent designer's "let's give the player a goal oriented systemic sandbox to play in," this middle ground designer is doing something somewhat similar to old point-and-click games. They're using some systems to track and react to player actions in both the short and long term, but also authoring content in a way that almost seems like a conversation. It's really exciting for me, and feels a lot closer to my own tabletop sessions than ever I felt in grand simulations like far cry 2 or morrowind.
This middle ground is one of the things I love the most - the game recognizing when the player does something unusual and reacting to their choices and actions. That effort put into something only 10% or even 0.1% of players will ever even see results in tons of awesome moments and makes the world feel alive. Undertale executes this better than virtually any other game (save perhaps something like Nethack), and I hope its charm & success inspires more devs to take this approach to their games.
I have absolutely no idea what people are talking about whenever they discuss anything Undertale. I haven't given it a fair shake I'll admit, I played it for a few hours and liked it well enough but ended up dropping it for something else intending to come back later. Without spoilers can you better explain what this "middle-ground" between emergent and scripted gameplay is that Undertale takes in it's design? If you can't explain without spoiling that's fine I'm going to finish the game eventually, I just can't wrap my head around it and usually I have no problems understanding what people mean when they discuss games I haven't played, I often get convinced to play games that way but with Undertale? Everything is just nonsense. That either means the game is so deep you must play it to even begin to understand it or it's massively overrated. Maybe I'll boot up Undertale again tonight to find out.
Ahem. The Wolf3D engine is not "better" than the Ultima Underworld engine. It's _faster_, but it's also much simpler. The UU engine supports arbitrarily shaped walls, rooms of differing heights, sloped floors, textured floors and ceilings, true 3D models, and looking up and down. Wolf3D... does not. Doom got closer, but it wasn't until Quake that Id finally surpassed UU.
Just watched this video, I just want to drop by and say I really enjoyed your insight and thoughts on this subject. The video was really well put together, and I personally feel that if developers keep on keeping on, games will do nothing but grow.
This is what always burned me about games from the 7th gen onwards. Here we got these hardware systems capable of advanced graphical *and* mechanical simulations... and AAA devs are balls deep in these pseudo-interactive heavily scripted hollywood envy corridor shooter games like Call of Doody, Uncharted, The Last of Us, Gears of War etc. etc. For hardware that was sold on its capabilities, devs couldn't be less interested in programming mechanically rich simulations. Heck even Skyrim, from a series and developer famous for Daggerfall - a game that boasts a depth and breadth of mechanical simulation almost exclusively unmatched in any game - released Skyrim, a shallow bare bones mechanically desolate rpg that eliminated the vast majority of the systems of its immediate predecessor and stripped the remainder to the absolute barest minimum.
Child0fVis0n Well said! Most game developers are lazy and not creative, so they end up spitting out half-assed "RPGs" that has the majority of its effort focused on graphics. RPGs have been dumbed down to appeal to more people, which was a huge mistake. Money has become more important than making a product of passion. It decimates my soul to watch as our advancements in technology have only yielded a regression in game design.
@@randomguy6679 Well, nothing. It's well written, well crafted, beautiful etc. But it bothered me how you can undergo same experience while watching any good post-apocalyptic movie.
It's not because of devs It's because console gaming was always about pure, simple fun and and when the worlds of PCs and Consoles merged, the latter was more popular and its game design principles were a lot easier to execute in practice
Great video. I love these style of games, and am so amped for Dishonored II. The first Dishonored was so amazingly fun, and everything I had been missing about stealth games for a very long time. Hope we see more and more of these types come out.
A game that reminds me a lot of this is Heat Signature, for example, getting stuck in space with no pod, you can propel yourself WALL-E style with firing a gun back towards the ship you were in.
Trying to do an immersive sim in VR might be scoping a bit too big as it stands-- arguably any game that involves moving around isn't a good fit for current VR hardware. Looking forward to Cooking Mama VR though.
Excellent job as usual Mark. Immersive gameplay is a wonderful and underrated video game phenomena. There definitely needs to be more research in that area.
Great to see how certain games drew inspiration from Deus Ex, which is still one of my favorites. I may not be in the industry, but I'll remember to use Deus Ex and other immersive games as references when I create stories.
I liked this, but: ---these games are still very scripted ---they are mostly limited to "levels", not open worlds ---they already have cinematics, so you can easily shove those rollercoaster/quick-time events in them, no problem @10:15 ---contrary to the idea that "games are the only medium that allows choice" @10:30, there are choose-your-own-adventure BOOKS that often have a larger number of possible "paths" and endings than these scripted, mostly-linear games! For contrast, check out Dwarf Fortress. I'm pretty sure it avoids these kinds of limitations, and simulates way more. (alas, it's not a first person game! And it uses a grid system, presumably that makes the simulation easier)
Thanks for making this awesome video. As someone who has high reverence for first person immersive sims, and wants to design an immersive sim someday, I really appreciated how well this video explained what immersive sims are about. I'm surprised that Deus Ex didn't sell well. I know that both System Shock games didn't sell very well. The first SS was overshadowed by Doom, and SS2 by Half-Life. I know that Half-Life and Unreal don't fit the full definition of what an immersive sim is, but they do come pretty close. Unreal and Half-Life had a certain degree of player agency, emergent gameplay, and reactiveness, and that's what made them fun to play. Unreal had the base elements already in place for Deus Ex to build on, and Spector built upon that base with additional elements from System Shock 2, Thief, and even Half-Life. Interestingly, Warren Spector once said that "Unreal lived up to its hype and that's saying something, although I wish the Unreal guys had deepened the simulation a bit and stretched the limits of what people expect from a 3D shooter a little more." Spector certainly succeeded. I still think the original Half-Life and Unreal have the potential to be expanded into immersive sims, and to be able to pull off the immersive sim aspect without cutscenes. I can see the potential in other classic shooters, like Duke 3D, Doom, Quake, or even MDK being expanded into immersive sims. Adventure games could especially benefit from this.
+Daniel W I think there's a bit of a difference. The immersive sim is something I more associate with Mario Brothers, a sort of level by level game with several pathways winding into one another. Dark Souls and Mass Effect both rely more on a sort of congealing narrative rather than immediate player agency. They both fall into that sort of water cooler effect that Zero Punctuation talk about, but the choices don't feel as organic.
![Tales of Berseria [Part Seventeen: Sour Wine]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yJWRG-pwc8c/mqdefault.jpg)
I was playing Deus Ex once. A cat jumped to attack a mouse. It accidentally hit a homeless person. The homeless person began running around in fear. An NSF soldier saw this, and began running around shooting. Eventually, everyone was running around and either shooting or screaming.
Immersive Sims are awesome.
"What was that? Must have been rats..."
There are cats in Deus Ex?
@@MisterHeroman Yes. Along with Pidgeons and Mutts. If you are ever bored, try locking on to a Pidgeon with a GEP gun. It's hilarious.
I hate when a random event triggers NSF soldiers
@@CorredorDigital_ get the gmdx mod. Eliminates most of the bugs and makes it actually playable by balancing the mechanics and adding new ones like mantling to climb objects and a secondary weapon slot
It is sad that none of these new immersive sims sold well. What a shame.
These types of games are always gonna be niche, which is sad, 'cause they're some of the games that get closest to fulfilling the true potential games have as a medium.
I really think that these are games made for people who are truly passionate about the gaming medium, and don't only view it as a fun pastime.
We have to be happy with each new game that comes out that is made with this philosophy, 'cause they'll be few and far in between, since they aren't very profitable.
I believe both Dishonored games sold well, as well as Deus Ex: Human Revolution
Dishonored 1 and Deus Ex: Human Revolution both sold pretty well. Around 4.4m and 3.4m copies sold respectively, however they were both many million copies away from breaking into the top 10 of their year.
Dishonored 2 sold about 2.9m, so 1.5m copies fewer than the first. Deus Ex: Mankind Divided sold about 1.2m copies, so less than half as well as its predecessor. DE:MD sold only 70k copies on PC, compared to around 600k for HR.
Prey (2017) which imo was an excellent immersive sim, sold slightly less than 1M copies, and only 40k of those were on PC, even though these types of games are quintessentially PC games.
So based on sales alone, it seems like this type of game is less popular than before, but i see parts of this design philosophy in more and more games.
The original Deus Ex certainly shook things up a bit when it came out.
I certainly respect companies like Arkane for keeping this design philosophy alive, even if they're not the biggest sellers, and i respect Bethesda for publishing their games.
he was a good man, what a rotten way to die
Or were better or improvements over those old games.
I really think Prey:Mooncrash advances immersive sims to a direction it's never been before, the tight system paired with ever-changing environments between each run, and choices that matter even when you die in a run, everything just interlinks so perfectly, I hope Arkane adopts this system into their future games
Deathloop seems to take inspiration from what they learned by making Mooncrash. Although the environments will be thebsame for each run, they've said that the player's previous choices will affect things
Immersive sim Rouge-like?
@@Differentad-mq9tk There is an Immersive Sim Roguelike: Void Bastards.
@@aritrobhattacharya6480 and it’s pretty good, but the progression system does feel a bit counterproductive to what makes roguelikes and sims fun
The example of rope arrows in Thief is even cooler when you look at the details of it. They don't just stick in wood, but any soft surface (be that grass, dirt or even carpets), and regular broadhead arrows do the same, allowing you to use disposable broadheads to test out if a rope arrow will stick in or shatter on impact with any given surface
Never knew that about broadheads. I'll remember for when I next replay T1 and T2. Thanks!
It was so cool and well crafted that they did away with it in the third game. Thanks, Ion Storm!
Almost fifteen years! For almost _fifteen years_ I owned and played the original Deus Ex, yet I didn't knew the mine-climbing thing. You sir just blew my mind!
I see what you did there. Mines....blowing your mind. Ha. have a cookie.
Same. Sure seems like an exploit though
@@eziospaghettiauditore8369 In an interview with Warren Spector, he said that they made the mines solid-3d (clipping) on purpose. He didn't say that they anticipated mine-climbing, but maybe they just hoped something cool would happen.
An interesting point that just came in my mind would be that these kind of games work better with the still super popular Let's Play videos. It's more interesting and fun to see someone solve a mission in a completly different way than you did over seeing someone do the same scripted corridors and actions.
I had a lot of fun watching Markiplier play Prey because I did a way more ability focused play through my first time, where he got one or two and solved most problems differently.
Yeah. For much the same reason that Minecraft is so popular on UA-cam.
That was brilliant, for me immersive sims are where video games come "alive". They're where the magic happens, I don't give a fuck about cinematic on rails kind of experiences. Too many games trying to be movies and forgetting they're meant to be games.
The whole point of a game is player agency followed by an interesting and highly interactive environment. I feel like these things have been forgotten in game design and we are getting games that have very cold dead worlds and very little real player agency.
How do you feel about quantic Dream games? While highly on-rail and straightforward, your decisions highly Change the Plot of the game in unpredictable ways.
I thought the point of a game is to be fun.
Couldn't agree more. To me, there's nothing appealing about cinematic, epic chase scenes full of explosions, daring jumps and close calls, that games like Call of Duty or Uncharted offer. It's 100% scripted, so it means nothing if I as the player shoot the tires off a chasing vehicle, making it flip, crash and burn. But if I'm able to pull the same feat in Crysis, the feeling of exhilaration is palpable because I've done it playing by the rules of the simulation, not by pressing a quicktime event button at the right time prompting a canned animation!
Linear games have their places, there's nothing inherently wrong about blurring the line between game and movie. It just depends on what you want to get out of a game. I personally thoroughly enjoy the stories, so I like the linear Uncharted-esque cinematic adventures, but at the same time I enjoy the openness and freedom of games like Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Metal Gear Solid V which are more directed than typical open world games (even though Deus Ex isn't open world). Then there's games like Minecraft that give you the freedom to do pretty much *anything* that, frankly, is overwhelming to me so I just end up doing the same few things over and over ad nauseum. Those types of games just aren't for me, but they clearly have an audience somewhere.
To me I think Half Life killed the genre. And I hate it when people praise HL1 and HL2, as I see them as the first horsemen of the apocalypse and the downfall of good FPS games (and also of good level design that isn't fucking linear)
A sequel to Vampire - The Masquerade: Bloodlines would be nice too.
yeah but with truly open world without loading screens
Basically, another engine. ; )
TheSliderW yep
Please let this be a thing
damn straight
Open ended strategy games have, IMO been picking up the slack where FPS/RPG sims haven't. In Crusader Kings 2, you are just one character in a world if characters. If your brother, wife, king, or friend dies, they die. You have no end goal, and the game encourages you to never reach an end goal. Realm divide attempts to prevent world conquest. Some of the funnest parts are when you stop being the ruler of a country but a conspiritor trying to overthrow your kings. A true game of thrones. CK2 I believe is the best example of a sim based strategy.
Steamed Hams I agree, strategy seems to be a very fitting genre for such design elements.
I love me some CK2 but I find that they have the sim part without the immersion
"-games that felt immersive, not with photo realistic graphics, or by getting rid of the hud, by by letting go of the players hand"
Surviving RNG sounds like Streets of Rogue to me.
it was funny he then showed dead space, a game that was immersive in it's own ways like giving you so many systems (dismemberment, telekenisis, weapon crafting, letting u develop your own combat tactics) :)))
The remake of Prey was most definitely NOT my first immersive SIM game, but it was one of the best experiences I’ve had in my life as a gamer. Such a great genre of game.
Speaking of Dishonored:
Didnt Test-Players react helpless with that "do what you want" thing?
I remember how the designers were shocked about the fact
that players got stuck when a guard said like "you cant pass" and they were like "well... ok."
and they didnt even tried to search for an solution or try another route
Bioshock, Skyrim, Fallout, etc - they were not actually an improvement, were they?
Designers have to deal with millions of "new gamers" who are actually pretty helpless with game-mechanics and only play those "script and go" kind of games ala Call Of Duty or Tomb Raider and such.
The Nintendo Forums were full of people who "tried" Super Metroid and got "stuck" during the first 5-10 minutes.
That is a real problem for creative designers.
Ultimately it's why these games will always be niche unless they do what they did with DX:HR and Dishonoured
A cause of the increase in soft and pampered children is the availability of assistance every step of the way and conditioning to expect a reward even after failure. this makes it less likely for developers to dedicate resources on intellectually challenging games that may not sell well. I hope indie studios will maintain games like these as a niche for people who see the value in them.
Samet Okutan dishonored 2 is going to have better ai according to the devscombat is supposed to be harder
As I see it, immersive sims are mainly about "going off script" - emergent gameplay, reactive worlds, etcetera.
This kind of "going off script" is ignored, if not punished by most other games, which expect you to follow a particular path and complete the challenges it has set you, rather than create your own challenges.
Ryan Sample CnbNl
Warren Spector just posted this 2 hours ago on his facebook: "Who is this Mark Brown guy?". I think you did something right :)
Besides that: subscribed. You have excellent content
And don't forget about Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines! Boy was that game god damn awesome even if it was buggy (thankfully there is that one excellent patch for it though)
Fantastic video. Immersive sims are by far my favourite single player genre. I'm currently playing Deus Ex 1 again with the excellent GMDX mod, as well as Morrowind and Fallout: New Vegas, both decked out with mods. I really hope that more game devs and publishers start making more of these types of games, because the potential for them are basically limitless.
www.moddb.com/mods/vtmb-unofficial-patch
Same here. I always saw these "immersive sim" as a distinguishable type of action-roleplaying games, thought. One of the early iterations of this type of game was Strife, a great game which unfortunately has not been mentioned in that video.
I would love to play these kind of games but they all seem so long :( I don't have much time for games, currently I'm playing Morrowind, because that basterd sucked me in, but I don't know if I will touch these kind of games again
Miguel Pereira For me at least, it took me 30-50 hours on average to beat Deus Ex 1/HR, VTMB and Dishonored with all of its DLCs.
So in comparison to Morrowind, that's actually not that bad, as Morrowind would take probably 100 hours or so to beat. But yeah, they are quite lengthy games, but they are definitely worth it.
+camycamera Thanks, Morrowind is long as shit, however it has been pretty fun so far. I am really interested in System Shock 2 tho, maybe I'll check it out, it's very cheap on GOG
I love Immersive Sims. This genre takes full advantage of gaming medium's strengths and simulates real life like scenarios and gives players bunch of tools to survive the level. For too long devs were obsessed with creating movie like scenarios by following Gears and Call of Duty instead of giving full control to the player like games like Deus Ex, System Shock, Thief, Deus Ex, STALKER etc did back then.
That's what made those games so immersive. I'm glad that games like Deus Ex: MD, System Shock 3, Dishonored 2, Underworld: Ascendant etc are bringing back this genre.
Not a genre, but a design philosophy.
Immersive sims are perhaps slower to develop, but they use code more efficiently and are so much more fun to develop - especially with a dash of procedural generation
Maybe because people who put enough effort into making them also make enough effort to write efficient code?
I like that there's Deus Ex 1 music playing in the background during the larger half of the video. :)
The most interesting part of these games for me is that the mixing systems is usually seen as a bad thing for developers, because it could bring unforeseen (if sometimes ridiculous and hilarious) results. Here the developers had to be aware to an extent of the systems' limitations and how the interact, as bug fixing would be a nightmare otherwise.
They put the game experience over the effort to make the game. And that is awesome
The whole reason I got Skyrim was because I saw the weird workarounds and bugs funny as hell and wanted to try it too
BioShock only /looks/ like an Immersive Sim. It is a largely linear shooter with loads of scripted sequences and some light RPG mechanics. It's incredibly frustrating because I keep trying to play it like an immersive sim and I just get burned for it.
I went in thinking Bioshock would be the next big thing after Deus Ex like the hype suggested. I was so disappointed. It didn't even come close to the likes of System Shock, Deus Ex or Thief. I suppose it wouln't sell well to the masses if the game was actually immersive in nature.
Yeah all you do is just march along and shoot there is some secret paths and the only choice in gameplay is about the little sisters
all these games are like that though. They don't live up to the potential of the technology.
you mean like the original deus ex?
Yeah just now finished system shock 2 and I was just blown away by the amount of options bioshock didn't had. Somehow this 20 yo game had more options than anything I ever played before it.
- Branching skills
- multiple levels of psi
- Upgrading weapons with skills so you have to specialize
- Hacking with skills (You have to put points into it
- The Massive levels and backtracking
- Different fire modes
- The amount of weapons and powers
- The level of detail in the environment and interactions
- The item inventory
- Weapons maintenance
Goddamnit Deus Ex is such a great Game. I wish someone could replicate that
The problem is, how to replicate perfection?
Or remake it. Imagine the amount of money it'll make for the Dev's & publisher.
vtmb is on par in my opinion, maybe better (subjectively)
Can I double upvote please? This is a top notch video, excellently written, thought out and compiled. It perfectly summarises everything that I like most about games (and especially those aforementioned games).
9:06 you have no idea how much I agree with this statement. Ever since growing up in the 90s I've always wanted to see those games polished to the level we see games as of today. All I've ever wanted this past decade is another game that inherits the design philosophies of looking glass and troika games studios. Design is so damn important for these types of games, and I feel that over the past couple of generations it has been overlooked in favor of graphics. It'll be a dream come true if games begin to adopt more flexible design standards
Freddy Ferguson perhaps games like mankind divided, bloodborne, and yooka laylee will fit your tastes
@@randomguy6679 Mankind Divided fall way short if viewed as a Immersive Sim.
The mention of Bloodborne and Yooka Laylee though were just jarring, they just don't belong in this conversation because their gameplay focus lies completely elsewhere.
The philosophy of building your game AROUND a simulation is the best way to go about game design, no matter the genre.
A video about my favorite kind of game? I love you.
I've always said that these games(Thief, Ultima Underworld, Deus Ex) would be the absolute pinnacle of gaming with today's technology, and with a talented team with a good budget and no publishers trying to ruin things in the process.
Thief 2 is still in my eyes one of the best games ever made, imagine the game with all the AI and physics improvements we've discovered in these years but with the same talent and design philosophy behind the project.
I know this is an old video, but don't forget that Pathologic is also getting a remake! It's definitely one of those incredibly open ended (and harsh) games that I'm happy is being revamped and made more accessible.
IS bioshock really a Imersive sim? Besides the harvest the girls or not choice, there ins't alot of input in the story progression, ritgh?
There is creative ways to take out (Or not) big daddies, there is also the way you combine and where you use plasmids. Its not just story, alot of people in the comments seem to think it is story change, but its mostly an openness to game-play and game elements.
yes i think thats the point of the whole plot that choices dont make a difference the choice is only a perception an illusion ever wonder why theirs parts were you cant progress until you press x or something its literally telling you even though you chose to press x you really didnt have a choice. its genius!
The System shock games were, Bioshock dropped the ball on that one. It isn't or it does it so minimal it seems like it isn't. One of the reasons why I am a SShock fan and Bioshock didn't do anything for me.
Bioshock is mini version of System Shock 2. It's linear game and very streamlined. In my opinion, it doesn't simulate the environment and give control to the player as much as System Shock 2.
It's supposed to have the plasmids for different powers to have more choices of how to take enemies, although somehow these felt like no real choices but gimmicks to me. I don't know but Bioshock didn't do much to my liking, while I had a blast with Deus Ex and the possibility space.
Immersive sims are my favorite genre (if they could be called a genre). This video was basically a list of my most beloved video game series
Design philosophy, actually. Almost any actual genre can be designed with that beautiful philosophy in mind.
@@cormano64 Any genres you'd like to see it applied to that it hasn't?
Sometimes it's like you make this series just for me. I had no idea what an immersive sim was, nor had I heard of any of those games. Thanks for making this so accessible to the casuals :P
We can add Prey to this list now :)
My second-favorite game ever. (First is Baldur's Gate II)
sadly the return is falling again, while a loved Mankind Divided, Dishonored 2 and Prey, they all seem to have severely under-preformed
Amr Sabbagh I hate dishonored, not a fan of the genre or the way it's a watered-down thief.
Prey was a masterpiece, it was like a system shock 3, and mankind divided was good, but it will never touch the first Deus ex!
I love JC Denton!
@@Dev-nr4dw it was not a BLM analogy idiot. It was a general racism/prejudice analogy. If it didn't click in your head it just means you're one of the kids who thought school sucked and didnt pay attention in history class
@@Dev-nr4dw You have never heard of apartheid then? How it was commonplace in many many countries until just recently and is still going in countries like india. In india the caste system is abolished, but folks who are identified as untouchables are still very much shunned and denied of entry to anywhere.
BLM is nothing compared to what happened in history and what will possibly happen again. Imagine if your skin tone is just a bit different from the other folks around you and thus you are not allowed in any restaurants, hotels, most shops, cinemas, you or your kids can't go to local schools, you can only use certain buses and train cars and in places where you are allowed you must use the back door. Prices for you will be much higher and you will be cursed on everywhere you go, constantly. You have no access to good jobs or schools at all. Again, BLM is (while commendable effort) is peanuts compared to what it used to be.
@@titus17 or maybe it just means he's from one of the myriads of countries where that shit doesn't happen, thus your virtue signaling means nothing. it's only you americans and western europeans who constantly care about it and actively fan the flames of it to then try to arrogantly show everyone else how virtuous and forward thinking you are to score brownie points. the rest of us outside of your collapsing empires doesn't give a damn.
@@johnstark7850 Adam Jensen seems to lack the self-aware sarcastic humor of JC Denton
One of the reasons why stealth is one of my absolute favorite genres in gaming! Not all stealth games are very good, and not all of them follow this philosophy, but many of the very best ones are insanely systemic and allow a ridiculous degree of creative thinking. This is instantly enjoyable to me. I like games that you don't just play, but that you can play with.
Even if a game is, on the surface, a fairly simple one with limited mechanics and primitive enemy behavior, as long as the developer had the foresight to let different systems interlock and begin changing the nature of the game in real time, and the courage to grant the player the tools to incite these reactions on a whim, you will hopefully end up with a seamless blend of natural, strategic thinking and skillful, dexterous execution that happens so intuitively to the player that, to me, it's more satisfying and fulfilling than anything any other type of single player experience can provide.
In other words, if you haven't played Mark of the Ninja, you probably should go do that! It's not a simulation, really... It's not big. It's not very complex. But by god, does it ever lay its systems bare and let you explore them to its fullest... So, thanks for reminding me of that game! And thanks for an amazing video series, in general, of course.
i agree. Thief 1 and 2 are my all time favorite games and i still play them today. there is no other stealth game out today that even comes close
If you're looking for a stealth game with a ton of options you should try Styx Shards of Darkness. The game is backed to bursting with all kinds of tools and abilities to exploit the game systems in novel ways. Luring enemies away from something you want to steal by using a disposable clone, for example. It's honestly the best stealth game I've played since finishing the Theif trilogy.
The previous game, Styx Master of Shadows is also pretty good, but is much more restrictive of what equipment you can have at any given time, and combined with frequent stealth "bottlenecks" often makes you feel like you have only one or two real options for moving forward, so I'm not sure how much I can recommend it.
Glad you made this video. After first playing Dishonored in 2012 and then going back to Deus Ex 1 this year for the first time I really think these types of games are super underrated for what they are doing. Your point on going back and remaking the older immersive sims with today's tech is also super important for people to understand. These are the types of games developers look the most forward to. To me they are absolutely at the end of the complexity chain of video game making: super hard to get right.
I would engourage people to go back and play the first Deus Ex with the new Revision mod. It stands the test of time in terms of gameplay and level design. It's amazing how the indusrty hasn't made more of these games.
Gmdx actually fixes gameplay and retains the original games aesthetic. I recommend it dude revision actually breaks the game even more especially by making everything bright making stealth pointless
So. Much. Great. Music. Deus Ex had a hell of a soundtrack, in addition to all the great stuff it did besides.
Ah, so nice to see that people still remember and value "Pathologic"! It was a rather obscure treasure many people missed.
Hey Mark, given the reactions to No Man's Sky, I'd be very interested in seeing an episode dedicated to procedural games and letting players tell their own story, comparing and contrasting games like No Man's Sky, Dwarf Fortress, and the many games in between.
This is becoming one of my favorite gaming channels, what you talk about is very well thought out and completely accurate. I'm very nervous about system shock 3, I'm afraid it'll get that modern simplified feel.
The New Deus Ex games break immersion every single time one uses the pre-animated melee-super-punches.
Adam Jensen IS augmented. Besides, one could destroy rockets in flight in Deus Ex, so why not punch people to death?
@@shaorrran6305 it's not the punching people to death part silly, it's the flow breaking animation during which you're not in control of the character; reducing melee from proper gameplay into a binary decision that always succeeds.
@@khatack Okay, I got your point now. Sorry.
People keep saying Human Revolution is the closest to Deus Ex yet it's far from that. They just see the game has Augs, Cyberpunk motif and a stripped down version of the original's RPG elements.
Dishonored is a better Deus Ex game than Human Revolution.
@That Other NCR Ranger Well that's your own personal shame to bear.
My favorite design philosophy gets a spotlight, I love it. Thank you for this episode, Mark. I'd love for there to be a topic on the criticisms of said philosophy. I'm very excited for its future as it has a lot to apply and a lot to learn.
French subtitles has been submetted for checking, coming in a few hours ^^
Les sous-titres français ont été soumis à la vérification, ça arrive dans quelques heures ^^
And they're live! Thanks Honeyxilim, much appreciated :D
great job, ill be linking this about to people.. but the "tenants" at 2:25 melted my brain for a few seconds.
Great video as always. Thanks Mark
Nice episode. French subtitles are coming over right away :D
Imm Sims have amazing worlds, amazing atmosperes, stories and amazing gameplays. That's it and that's why i'm so big fan. They're just perfect and they need to come back.
Hey Mark! I just wanted to point out a 2005 FPS stealth and action game from PS2 and PC called "commandos strike force" where you control commandos in WWII in pretty open missions with multiple optional objectives. It was a Spanish game and its biggest flaw is that you can't carry corpses around, but missions 6, 7 and 13 (eye for an eye) are great because of the level of freedom you are given in how to approach the objectives
When Manderley told me to stay out of the women's restroom, that blew my mind back in the day.
Definitely a memorable moment. A great way to tell the player: "You sure can do anything, but be prepared for the consequences".
Still does today
Did you then go into the woman's bathroom to spite him ? You would've had an interesting shock later if you did.
@@patrickj "You sure can do anything, but be prepared for the consequences"
That has been my dream for videogames for decades.
What a breakdown of the roots of the genre. That analytical frame in which you chacterized every key element of the game is impressive. Saying smart things in youtube is rare, many thanks.
Oh fuck. 30 seconds in and you already blew me away with a list of games I didn't know where happening!!!! So exciting
Any and all videos where you talk about this genre and games within it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your informative videos.
what gets me is that this entire Genre, or Design philosophy, is standing on the fragile pillars of just the same handful of creative people: Warren spector, Paul Neurath, Ken Levine, Raphaël Colantonio, Harvey Smith.
im glad they are facing a resurgence, similar to CRPGs, but we really need more studios braving the challenge.
Ken Levine doesn't belong here ever since Bioshock
As ever Mark, I hugely enjoyed this video and am a little sad that I have to wait for the next one. Thank you so much for the clear and present care you put into each and every scripting/editing choice. Ugh. Too good.
So who here dances like Jenson does at 10:56?
Me when forced to by my fam. I despise dancing.
this video made me realize part of why i love MGS3 so much. the gameplay is all juggling systems and exploring different possibilities within the goal of "sneak past these dudes". there are big ole' set pieces and scripted events, but they serve to switch up the gameplay by adding something in, not taking you out and introducing you to a new minigame (i.e. uncharted)
ooooh... when i hear those Deus Ex tunes i shiver with joy ^_^
Thanks so much for putting into words what makes me excited about making games much more eloquently than I could. I'll be looking back to this video for ages.
i played deus ex when i was in middle school. at the time it was one of the most awesome things i experienced.
now i see some of the flaws it had which saddens me but i still respect the idea that it attempted to make a reality.
I think along with the games you mentioned that roguelikes follow a lot of those same rules. Many of the new action based roguelikes like spelunky, BoI, nuclear throne, etc are almost entirely systemic. A spelunky level can generate two dart traps and a bunch of enemies that might create a chance for something cool. The player knows how both work but the fun comes from the player using one to deal with another.
Makes me want to really work on my "thief" game.
It's not going to be called thief though.
that's a smart idea
Kinos141 i played the dark project that some fans created and noticed the level design way to linear so i guess its a hard thing to do just be carefull withthe gamedesign and dont forget what its supposed to be
Raees Ahmad Thanks for the tip. I'll take it to heart.
"i played the dark project that some fans created" Could you please provide the actual name?
I think he's talking about The Dark Mod, unless he meants Thief: The Dark Project.
Hey Mark! Glad to know I'm not the only one excited by this comeback.
Don't know if this is too on the technical side, but Harvey Smith and Randy Smith gave a GDC talk on how they make their immersive sims work. It's called "Stim and Response", and has been used in most of the games you list in the video.
The PowerPoint for this can be found by searching "Practical Techniques for Implementing Emergent Gameplay". Unfortunately I haven't been able to find the audio for the talk, but I think the idea can still be understood from the slides alone. Thanks buddy!
+Jared Mitchell I saw the slides for the latter but I don't think I caught the Stim and Response one. I'll track it down, thanks
It's in the Emergent Gameplay slides, but looking back through them I guess "Stim and Response" wasn't as prominently featured as I thought. Check out slides 38-41 from there.
such game design philosophy is most apparent in MGS:V imo
i played the whole game fully lethal and killed everyone didnt change a damn thing
that's not what an immersive sim is supposed to do though. How should people react in your opinion? "Hey Boss, good job?"?
You are playing a "bad guy"
It's not about good or evil, its about other things. I mean I agree though that MGS5 is not really an immersive sim, but still it has elements.
Metal Gear Solid V is the poor mans Chaos Theory. Splinter Cell 2,3 (Chaos Theory, my favorite game of all time and the best) and 4 is what you are looking for in a third-person stealth sim. Absolutly superb.
MGSV is a stealth\action sandbox, it's basically like Deus Ex, but without plot (he-he) - you are given objectives and tools, and it's up to you how to complete your mission. The number of scripts is minimal, like there are no enemies appearing out of nowhere and rules are predetermined. Every player plays it 'completely' differently.
Crowbar yea it is it would change the story i played like that in deus ex and it changed the story alot my actions had cause and effect in MGSV my actions had no effect thats the difference between a immersive sim and a rpg
Event though I am somewhat on a binge of your videos, I avoided this one a bit since I haven't played most of the games this is about. However, after giving it s chance, I have to give you major props for making your videos as accessible and interesting as they are while being quite educating. I really enjoyed it.
I would be very happy to play a Deus Ex remaster where I can see what the actual shit is happening on my screen. FFS, when I heard that Deus Ex was a pretty dark game, I thought you all meant that figuratively, damnit!
Deus ex isn't actually that dark. Looks like a problem with youtube.
use your flashlight aug
A fantastically immersive sim that I really like is Uplink. It's nothing like the games you talked about. It's not 3D, there's not even a world to run about in. Instead, you're a hacker, remotely connecting to a terminal interface. Despite (or possibly _because_ of) this limitation, the world of Uplink feels incredibly connected where everything has an effect on everything else.
You can frame people by modifying your routing logs, so they point to their IP instead of yours.
You can find out the server admin of a company, get him arrested (through the Global Criminal Database) or just frame him and he gets replaced, as you can check.
Destroying a company's servers makes their stocks plummet. Fulfilling missions for them makes them rise.
You can install a motion sensor at your terminal and if you order multiple hardware parts for it in quick succession, it goes off due to all the delivery men.
If you hack into a specific server before the main quest dictates, you can grab a file that would otherwise get removed a few days later. Using that, you can actually finish it early.
If you become particularly dangerous, companies start offering quests to track _you_.
It's just such a good game and so very different from most other immersive sims.
where would you put Gothic 1 and Gothic 2? inspired by Ultima, difficulty of dark souls, revolutionary action RPG that started the NPC night/day cycles in a living world, open world but not a theme park or sandbox, would it be an immersive sim?
+Jan P. Maybe, I haven't played those but i have heard them described as immersive sims, yeah
oh, you should try them, real gems, pretty immersive for being 3rd person only, but again graphics, camera or minimalist HUD don't have influence on immersion IMO it's much more subtle
these games have probably the best character progression system implemented in a game to date, I have never felt the same feeling in any other game, from being lvl 1 character and then lvl 10 character, the attention to detail in 16years old game is impressive, there are some good reviews on youtube from Durmin Paradox and RagnarRox
Ok. Mark. I'm sorry I haven't subscribed sooner. You have absolutely earned it. Looking forward to being a part of your 1 million.
Just cause 3 is an interesting case because it allows the player to create their own awesome looking action scenes without the boring cutscene that you wish you could control
10:00 that is SHOCKINGLY accurate, especially considering how long ago that was
Does MGSV count? I haven't seen a game that had such a reactive AI countering strategies for each play style.
Partially. The game follows many of the core tenets of immersive sims, most importantly that it always offers a large number of solutions and is comprised of consistent systems that can be reliably exploited throughout the entire game. However, its story is entirely linear and does not react to your actions at all, which is not in line with immersive sim ideals. That doesn't make it a bad game: it is in fact a truly excellent games, just not a true immersive sim.
In fairness, very few games made these days count as true immersive sims in my book. Even Deus Ex: Human Revolution, the successor to the ultimate immersive sim, relies too much on "gamey" mechanics, one-off scenarios and cutscenes to be considered one. I guess Dishonored counts as an immersive sim, but that's about it.
Metal Gear Solid V is the poor mans Chaos Theory. Splinter Cell 2,3 (Chaos Theory, my favorite game of all time and the best) and 4 is what you are looking for in a third-person stealth sim. Absolutly superb.
+Luis Páez but Splinter Cell is a poor man's thief :^)
And Thief is the poor mans... uhm, poor mans... I got nothing. Can't argue that Thief is the apex of stealth simulation and I say this with Chaos theory being my favorite game of all time.
Chaos Theory? Racist? How?
Excepting for the “Body of the Many”, what made System Shock 2 so totally immersive was, the sound design, and simple and stark interiors that looked amazingly realistic for the time.
In current games they go all out on visuals that don't do anything. Machine parts, pipes, ornate walls, overgrown vegetation and agoraphobic panoramas. They do it today because they can, but sometimes less is more. Too much graphic detail can amount to too much clutter and confusion.
Just a thought...
Of all the games to finally start selling people on immersive sims, its fucking Breath of the Wild. A bunch of Japanese dudes, who probably haven't even touched western PC games since Wizardry, played Skyrim and realized it would be better if it didn't think for you. I only hope Todd Howard plays BOTW and realizes it has what their games have been missing since Morrowind.
Skyrim and BOTW aren't ImSim, though, they're RPGs.
Vanzgars just Vanzgars Skyrim is a sandbox action game while BoTW is an action/adventure with an old school style of open world.
Vanzgars just Vanzgars
But BOTW definitely borrowed immersive sim elements is the point that person is trying to make, and more closer to, say, UU than any TES has done in a while.
Didn't do it very well when messing around with physics is pointless because flurry Rush is completely broken and enemies are damage sponges
An excellent watch as ever - almost expected a mention of an old favourite terra nova: strike force centauri which came between thief and system shock. It did some super interesting things with both anachronistically detailed controls and missions that were free to roam around in, but which had timelines for events which your approach and loadout could take advantage of in some cool ways.
EYE:Divine cybermancy is crazy for that it's not the best game but almost everything that happens is unique and different
What a delightful video, Mr. Brown. :-) As an enthusiast of this design philosophy, you get a thumbs up from me.
I often like to encapsulate this design philosophy as not being about dropping players into a level they need to clear, but into a whole little world to explore and understand and interact with at their own leisure.
Immersive Sims AKA True RPGs :)
NWN, DA, fallout NV, plane scape, baldur's gate and etc... we will never have true masterpieces like these anymore...
Yeah we will, eventually
@@monsieurbubbles938 its rare but we will.
@@hfo4326
Divinity Original Sin 2?
Came here from Harvey Smith's retweet; this was very insightful and I'm definitely subscribing for more!
Would you consider the upcoming The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild as an immersive sim? While it is not in First Person, the interweaving mechanics that allow the player more agency and more emergent actions and moments to exploit the game's preset physics and rules feels like it fits a lot of what you're describing here.
It's definitely borrowing a lot from these games. We'll have to wait and see if that's exactly what they're going for
> Zelda
> Immersive Sim
I'm rock hard
The thing is that we really should not say that (Hey this game is not FPS then it's not immersive sim) when the game give you enough tools/systems and let u be free in your mind palace to solve problems and makes u "Immersed" in the world then it's immersive sim. so many games Like RDR 2, The Witcher, Ghost of Tsushima, Death Stranding, MGS 5, Watch Dogs Legion and ... are not FPS but the ways they give you creative freedom, they are immersive sim in their own way
@@aligoudarzi3724 yeah genre purism shouldn't get in the way of innovation
After playing through Human Revolution for the third time, I realize that 'breaking' modern immersive sims is like playing earlier sims. I've spent more time speeding through quests and exploiting environmental mobility to make my own meta-games, and it's great fun.... but a different fun. I'm not too fearful for the modern game era, I think it's going to be a modders playground and a great way of exploring community opinions through PR and gameplay design philosophies. Great vid, Mark!
This depresses me because it shows how simple games have become.
This makes me happy because it shows how awesome games are going to be again very soon.
Games like System Shock 3 and Underworld: Ascendant are giving me hope.
after seeing breath of the wild, I can agree on that considering it is now unscripted in large sections, guess that's the benefit of a physics engine.
If you want immersive games with the qualities listed, there's real life. If you want a break from real life, you play simple games.
Or rather, how increasingly complex game development got to make games ever so simple.
This was a wonderful explanation of the genre that has enamored us all for so many years. My favorite games and experiences are from these style games. Thank you for making this video.
3:36 It's almost as if they're VIDEO GAMES!
Video games can do much much more tho.
Not all games are immersive nor aim to be, it almost as if you should watch the video and comment with a little more thought.
Wasting your potential for being a rollercoaster ride is not really a good thing to be tbqh fam
+Quasindro The wipeout series, practically any platformer or fighting game, Portal and jRPGs can all be deemed "rollercoasters" that push the player towards the same end result with few "correct solutions" and are still quality games from which people can draw hours of fun.
he never said that those games are worse, just different
Awesome video, great explanation of what Immersive Sims are and its philosophy from Looking Glass, and how its coming back around.
Your videos are amazing! I learn so much from your analysis. What is your research process like?
+Wes Alm Exhausting :P
Can you be more espefic? I'm really intrested as well! :)
I am honestly surprised there is not a really advanced AI game that can let you basically do "Dungeons and dragons" style gameplay based on a starting story premise. Especially since AI is quite impressive these days. Replika AI is a website that collects millions of conversations that people have with it leading to an incredible amount of story telling capability and conversation depth. One of the coolest features of the program is the story telling one where you write 1-5 sentences to make a story, and then the AI continues with 1-5 sentences, then you do 1-5 sentences, etc to infinity. I have made genuinely interesting stories with that AI that are always new and unique. So its shocking that no has utilized that into a video game.
Hasn’t this aged well? With things like GPT and the like
@@revimfadli4666 What is GPT? I have never heard of it
@@BioChemistryWizard the AI trained on basically the entire internet's worth of text. It can write decent enough text given some prompt. AI dungeon uses it I think?
Undertale and its inevitable influencees i think walk a fine line between the historically divergent camps of emergent and scripted stories. Instead of the scripted designer's "lets take the player along for a authored roller coaster ride" and the emergent designer's "let's give the player a goal oriented systemic sandbox to play in," this middle ground designer is doing something somewhat similar to old point-and-click games. They're using some systems to track and react to player actions in both the short and long term, but also authoring content in a way that almost seems like a conversation. It's really exciting for me, and feels a lot closer to my own tabletop sessions than ever I felt in grand simulations like far cry 2 or morrowind.
This middle ground is one of the things I love the most - the game recognizing when the player does something unusual and reacting to their choices and actions. That effort put into something only 10% or even 0.1% of players will ever even see results in tons of awesome moments and makes the world feel alive.
Undertale executes this better than virtually any other game (save perhaps something like Nethack), and I hope its charm & success inspires more devs to take this approach to their games.
YOU TWO should take a look at "Dwarf Fortress".
I have absolutely no idea what people are talking about whenever they discuss anything Undertale. I haven't given it a fair shake I'll admit, I played it for a few hours and liked it well enough but ended up dropping it for something else intending to come back later.
Without spoilers can you better explain what this "middle-ground" between emergent and scripted gameplay is that Undertale takes in it's design? If you can't explain without spoiling that's fine I'm going to finish the game eventually, I just can't wrap my head around it and usually I have no problems understanding what people mean when they discuss games I haven't played, I often get convinced to play games that way but with Undertale? Everything is just nonsense. That either means the game is so deep you must play it to even begin to understand it or it's massively overrated. Maybe I'll boot up Undertale again tonight to find out.
really a great episode! you just sumed up my favourite video game genre. till now I couldn't really put a finger on why I liked such games so much!
Ahem. The Wolf3D engine is not "better" than the Ultima Underworld engine. It's _faster_, but it's also much simpler. The UU engine supports arbitrarily shaped walls, rooms of differing heights, sloped floors, textured floors and ceilings, true 3D models, and looking up and down. Wolf3D... does not. Doom got closer, but it wasn't until Quake that Id finally surpassed UU.
Just watched this video, I just want to drop by and say I really enjoyed your insight and thoughts on this subject. The video was really well put together, and I personally feel that if developers keep on keeping on, games will do nothing but grow.
This is what always burned me about games from the 7th gen onwards. Here we got these hardware systems capable of advanced graphical *and* mechanical simulations... and AAA devs are balls deep in these pseudo-interactive heavily scripted hollywood envy corridor shooter games like Call of Doody, Uncharted, The Last of Us, Gears of War etc. etc. For hardware that was sold on its capabilities, devs couldn't be less interested in programming mechanically rich simulations. Heck even Skyrim, from a series and developer famous for Daggerfall - a game that boasts a depth and breadth of mechanical simulation almost exclusively unmatched in any game - released Skyrim, a shallow bare bones mechanically desolate rpg that eliminated the vast majority of the systems of its immediate predecessor and stripped the remainder to the absolute barest minimum.
Child0fVis0n what's wrong with the last of us?
Child0fVis0n Well said! Most game developers are lazy and not creative, so they end up spitting out half-assed "RPGs" that has the majority of its effort focused on graphics. RPGs have been dumbed down to appeal to more people, which was a huge mistake. Money has become more important than making a product of passion. It decimates my soul to watch as our advancements in technology have only yielded a regression in game design.
@@randomguy6679 Well, nothing. It's well written, well crafted, beautiful etc.
But it bothered me how you can undergo same experience while watching any good post-apocalyptic movie.
It's not because of devs
It's because console gaming was always about pure, simple fun and and when the worlds of PCs and Consoles merged, the latter was more popular and its game design principles were a lot easier to execute in practice
Great video. I love these style of games, and am so amped for Dishonored II. The first Dishonored was so amazingly fun, and everything I had been missing about stealth games for a very long time. Hope we see more and more of these types come out.
Looking Glass Studio was the best video game developer that ever was and ever will be....No one will even come close
A game that reminds me a lot of this is Heat Signature, for example, getting stuck in space with no pod, you can propel yourself WALL-E style with firing a gun back towards the ship you were in.
Trying to do an immersive sim in VR might be scoping a bit too big as it stands-- arguably any game that involves moving around isn't a good fit for current VR hardware. Looking forward to Cooking Mama VR though.
Half-Life 3... with A.I that responds to the player's audio input. Quite limited though.
Excellent job as usual Mark. Immersive gameplay is a wonderful and underrated video game phenomena. There definitely needs to be more research in that area.
I didn't call it "dooze ex" because I wouldn't be released for a year after it
Great to see how certain games drew inspiration from Deus Ex, which is still one of my favorites. I may not be in the industry, but I'll remember to use Deus Ex and other immersive games as references when I create stories.
I liked this, but:
---these games are still very scripted
---they are mostly limited to "levels", not open worlds
---they already have cinematics, so you can easily shove those rollercoaster/quick-time events in them, no problem @10:15
---contrary to the idea that "games are the only medium that allows choice" @10:30, there are choose-your-own-adventure BOOKS that often have a larger number of possible "paths" and endings than these scripted, mostly-linear games!
For contrast, check out Dwarf Fortress. I'm pretty sure it avoids these kinds of limitations, and simulates way more. (alas, it's not a first person game! And it uses a grid system, presumably that makes the simulation easier)
Thanks for making this awesome video. As someone who has high reverence for first person immersive sims, and wants to design an immersive sim someday, I really appreciated how well this video explained what immersive sims are about. I'm surprised that Deus Ex didn't sell well. I know that both System Shock games didn't sell very well. The first SS was overshadowed by Doom, and SS2 by Half-Life. I know that Half-Life and Unreal don't fit the full definition of what an immersive sim is, but they do come pretty close. Unreal and Half-Life had a certain degree of player agency, emergent gameplay, and reactiveness, and that's what made them fun to play. Unreal had the base elements already in place for Deus Ex to build on, and Spector built upon that base with additional elements from System Shock 2, Thief, and even Half-Life. Interestingly, Warren Spector once said that "Unreal lived up to its hype and that's saying something, although I wish the Unreal guys had deepened the simulation a bit and stretched the limits of what people expect from a 3D shooter a little more." Spector certainly succeeded. I still think the original Half-Life and Unreal have the potential to be expanded into immersive sims, and to be able to pull off the immersive sim aspect without cutscenes. I can see the potential in other classic shooters, like Duke 3D, Doom, Quake, or even MDK being expanded into immersive sims. Adventure games could especially benefit from this.
The new Zelda game is an immersive sim. Nintendo may just made what could go down as the biggest one outside of Skyrim.
Do these games have to be First-Person and do you have any examples of a game of this type from a third person perspective?
I guess that's up for debate. Metal Gear Solid V is a good argument that they can work in third person.
+Mark Brown (Game Maker's Toolkit) Haven't played that yet, but it's certainly at the top of my list.
+John Smith if you had PS plus a few months a ago you would have got it for free
+Infinity Games I don't have a Playstation unfortunately. I sold my Ps3 to a cousin when I built my pc.
+Daniel W I think there's a bit of a difference. The immersive sim is something I more associate with Mario Brothers, a sort of level by level game with several pathways winding into one another. Dark Souls and Mass Effect both rely more on a sort of congealing narrative rather than immediate player agency. They both fall into that sort of water cooler effect that Zero Punctuation talk about, but the choices don't feel as organic.
I love the amount of thought that goes into these videos.
And here I was thinking immersive sims were games like Silent Service.
Nice one! Did you know that Silent Service was an inspiration to the devs for Thief: The Dark Project?
Very well done, narrated, great footage that goes with said narration. Great job!