The Comeback of the Immersive Sim
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- Опубліковано 17 сер 2016
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New games in the System Shock, Ultima Underworld, and Deus Ex franchises are here, marking the surprise comeback of the "immersive sim". But what are these games, and why should we care that they're making a triumphant return?
Quote Credits
Rock Paper Shotgun: "Dark Futures: Clint Hocking"
www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010...
Gamasutra: "Postmortem: Ion Storm's Deus Ex"
www.gamasutra.com/view/feature...
Gamasutra: "Why Warren Spector is making games again"
www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26...
GAMBIT: "Looking Glass Studios Podcast"
gambit.mit.edu/updates/audio/l...
Reddit: "I am Warren Spector, AMA"
/ hi_i_am_warren_spector...
Games shown in this episode (in order of appearance):
Deus Ex: Mankind Divided (2016)
Dishonored 2 (2016)
Prey (2017)
Ultima Ascendant (2018)
System Shock (2023)
Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992)
Wolfenstein 3D (1992)
The Elder Scrolls: Arena (1994)
System Shock (1994)
Thief: The Dark Project (1998)
Deus Ex (2000)
System Shock 2 (1999)
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (2009)
Rise of the Tomb Raider (2015)
The Last of Us (2013)
Thief (2014)
Assassin's Creed II (2009)
Far Cry 3 (2012)
Infamous Second Son (2014)
Far Cry 2 (2008)
Dead Space (2008)
Fallout 3 (2008)
BioShock (2007)
S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl (2007)
Deus Ex: Human Revolution (2011)
Dishonored (2012)
Hitman (2016)
Alien: Isolation (2014)
Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain (2015)
Dangerous Golf (2016)
Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor (2014)
Until Dawn (2015)
Music used in this episode:
Icarus (Deus Ex: Human Revolution)
Background Music (Deus Ex GO)
UNATCO (Deus Ex)
NYC Streets (Deus Ex)
Wan Chai Market (Deus Ex)
Icarus (Deus Ex: Human Revolution)
Title (Deus Ex)
Clip credits
Arsonall: "Thief (2014) First 15 Minutes"
• Video
ZephyrMantis: "S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl PC Gameplay"
• S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow...
UnfairPlus: "Barrett - Director's Cut Boss Fight - Deus Ex: Human Revolution"
• Video
Stranger Things © Netflix
Contribute translated subtitles - amara.org/v/C3BFY/ - Ігри
I was playing Deus Ex once. A cat jumped to attack a mouse. It accidentally hit a homeless person. The homeless person began running around in fear. An NSF soldier saw this, and began running around shooting. Eventually, everyone was running around and either shooting or screaming.
Immersive Sims are awesome.
"What was that? Must have been rats..."
There are cats in Deus Ex?
@@MisterHeroman Yes. Along with Pidgeons and Mutts. If you are ever bored, try locking on to a Pidgeon with a GEP gun. It's hilarious.
I hate when a random event triggers NSF soldiers
@@CorredorDigital_ get the gmdx mod. Eliminates most of the bugs and makes it actually playable by balancing the mechanics and adding new ones like mantling to climb objects and a secondary weapon slot
It is sad that none of these new immersive sims sold well. What a shame.
These types of games are always gonna be niche, which is sad, 'cause they're some of the games that get closest to fulfilling the true potential games have as a medium.
I really think that these are games made for people who are truly passionate about the gaming medium, and don't only view it as a fun pastime.
We have to be happy with each new game that comes out that is made with this philosophy, 'cause they'll be few and far in between, since they aren't very profitable.
I believe both Dishonored games sold well, as well as Deus Ex: Human Revolution
Dishonored 1 and Deus Ex: Human Revolution both sold pretty well. Around 4.4m and 3.4m copies sold respectively, however they were both many million copies away from breaking into the top 10 of their year.
Dishonored 2 sold about 2.9m, so 1.5m copies fewer than the first. Deus Ex: Mankind Divided sold about 1.2m copies, so less than half as well as its predecessor. DE:MD sold only 70k copies on PC, compared to around 600k for HR.
Prey (2017) which imo was an excellent immersive sim, sold slightly less than 1M copies, and only 40k of those were on PC, even though these types of games are quintessentially PC games.
So based on sales alone, it seems like this type of game is less popular than before, but i see parts of this design philosophy in more and more games.
The original Deus Ex certainly shook things up a bit when it came out.
I certainly respect companies like Arkane for keeping this design philosophy alive, even if they're not the biggest sellers, and i respect Bethesda for publishing their games.
he was a good man, what a rotten way to die
Or were better or improvements over those old games.
The example of rope arrows in Thief is even cooler when you look at the details of it. They don't just stick in wood, but any soft surface (be that grass, dirt or even carpets), and regular broadhead arrows do the same, allowing you to use disposable broadheads to test out if a rope arrow will stick in or shatter on impact with any given surface
Never knew that about broadheads. I'll remember for when I next replay T1 and T2. Thanks!
It was so cool and well crafted that they did away with it in the third game. Thanks, Ion Storm!
I really think Prey:Mooncrash advances immersive sims to a direction it's never been before, the tight system paired with ever-changing environments between each run, and choices that matter even when you die in a run, everything just interlinks so perfectly, I hope Arkane adopts this system into their future games
Deathloop seems to take inspiration from what they learned by making Mooncrash. Although the environments will be thebsame for each run, they've said that the player's previous choices will affect things
Immersive sim Rouge-like?
@@Differentad-mq9tk There is an Immersive Sim Roguelike: Void Bastards.
@@aritrobhattacharya6480 and it’s pretty good, but the progression system does feel a bit counterproductive to what makes roguelikes and sims fun
Almost fifteen years! For almost _fifteen years_ I owned and played the original Deus Ex, yet I didn't knew the mine-climbing thing. You sir just blew my mind!
I see what you did there. Mines....blowing your mind. Ha. have a cookie.
Same. Sure seems like an exploit though
@@eziospaghettiauditore8369 In an interview with Warren Spector, he said that they made the mines solid-3d (clipping) on purpose. He didn't say that they anticipated mine-climbing, but maybe they just hoped something cool would happen.
An interesting point that just came in my mind would be that these kind of games work better with the still super popular Let's Play videos. It's more interesting and fun to see someone solve a mission in a completly different way than you did over seeing someone do the same scripted corridors and actions.
I had a lot of fun watching Markiplier play Prey because I did a way more ability focused play through my first time, where he got one or two and solved most problems differently.
Yeah. For much the same reason that Minecraft is so popular on UA-cam.
A sequel to Vampire - The Masquerade: Bloodlines would be nice too.
yeah but with truly open world without loading screens
Basically, another engine. ; )
TheSliderW yep
Please let this be a thing
damn straight
"-games that felt immersive, not with photo realistic graphics, or by getting rid of the hud, by by letting go of the players hand"
Surviving RNG sounds like Streets of Rogue to me.
it was funny he then showed dead space, a game that was immersive in it's own ways like giving you so many systems (dismemberment, telekenisis, weapon crafting, letting u develop your own combat tactics) :)))
Speaking of Dishonored:
Didnt Test-Players react helpless with that "do what you want" thing?
I remember how the designers were shocked about the fact
that players got stuck when a guard said like "you cant pass" and they were like "well... ok."
and they didnt even tried to search for an solution or try another route
Bioshock, Skyrim, Fallout, etc - they were not actually an improvement, were they?
Designers have to deal with millions of "new gamers" who are actually pretty helpless with game-mechanics and only play those "script and go" kind of games ala Call Of Duty or Tomb Raider and such.
The Nintendo Forums were full of people who "tried" Super Metroid and got "stuck" during the first 5-10 minutes.
That is a real problem for creative designers.
Ultimately it's why these games will always be niche unless they do what they did with DX:HR and Dishonoured
A cause of the increase in soft and pampered children is the availability of assistance every step of the way and conditioning to expect a reward even after failure. this makes it less likely for developers to dedicate resources on intellectually challenging games that may not sell well. I hope indie studios will maintain games like these as a niche for people who see the value in them.
Samet Okutan dishonored 2 is going to have better ai according to the devscombat is supposed to be harder
As I see it, immersive sims are mainly about "going off script" - emergent gameplay, reactive worlds, etcetera.
This kind of "going off script" is ignored, if not punished by most other games, which expect you to follow a particular path and complete the challenges it has set you, rather than create your own challenges.
Ryan Sample CnbNl
And don't forget about Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines! Boy was that game god damn awesome even if it was buggy (thankfully there is that one excellent patch for it though)
Fantastic video. Immersive sims are by far my favourite single player genre. I'm currently playing Deus Ex 1 again with the excellent GMDX mod, as well as Morrowind and Fallout: New Vegas, both decked out with mods. I really hope that more game devs and publishers start making more of these types of games, because the potential for them are basically limitless.
www.moddb.com/mods/vtmb-unofficial-patch
Same here. I always saw these "immersive sim" as a distinguishable type of action-roleplaying games, thought. One of the early iterations of this type of game was Strife, a great game which unfortunately has not been mentioned in that video.
I would love to play these kind of games but they all seem so long :( I don't have much time for games, currently I'm playing Morrowind, because that basterd sucked me in, but I don't know if I will touch these kind of games again
Miguel Pereira For me at least, it took me 30-50 hours on average to beat Deus Ex 1/HR, VTMB and Dishonored with all of its DLCs.
So in comparison to Morrowind, that's actually not that bad, as Morrowind would take probably 100 hours or so to beat. But yeah, they are quite lengthy games, but they are definitely worth it.
+camycamera Thanks, Morrowind is long as shit, however it has been pretty fun so far. I am really interested in System Shock 2 tho, maybe I'll check it out, it's very cheap on GOG
Open ended strategy games have, IMO been picking up the slack where FPS/RPG sims haven't. In Crusader Kings 2, you are just one character in a world if characters. If your brother, wife, king, or friend dies, they die. You have no end goal, and the game encourages you to never reach an end goal. Realm divide attempts to prevent world conquest. Some of the funnest parts are when you stop being the ruler of a country but a conspiritor trying to overthrow your kings. A true game of thrones. CK2 I believe is the best example of a sim based strategy.
Steamed Hams I agree, strategy seems to be a very fitting genre for such design elements.
I love me some CK2 but I find that they have the sim part without the immersion
That was brilliant, for me immersive sims are where video games come "alive". They're where the magic happens, I don't give a fuck about cinematic on rails kind of experiences. Too many games trying to be movies and forgetting they're meant to be games.
The whole point of a game is player agency followed by an interesting and highly interactive environment. I feel like these things have been forgotten in game design and we are getting games that have very cold dead worlds and very little real player agency.
How do you feel about quantic Dream games? While highly on-rail and straightforward, your decisions highly Change the Plot of the game in unpredictable ways.
I thought the point of a game is to be fun.
Couldn't agree more. To me, there's nothing appealing about cinematic, epic chase scenes full of explosions, daring jumps and close calls, that games like Call of Duty or Uncharted offer. It's 100% scripted, so it means nothing if I as the player shoot the tires off a chasing vehicle, making it flip, crash and burn. But if I'm able to pull the same feat in Crysis, the feeling of exhilaration is palpable because I've done it playing by the rules of the simulation, not by pressing a quicktime event button at the right time prompting a canned animation!
Linear games have their places, there's nothing inherently wrong about blurring the line between game and movie. It just depends on what you want to get out of a game. I personally thoroughly enjoy the stories, so I like the linear Uncharted-esque cinematic adventures, but at the same time I enjoy the openness and freedom of games like Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Metal Gear Solid V which are more directed than typical open world games (even though Deus Ex isn't open world). Then there's games like Minecraft that give you the freedom to do pretty much *anything* that, frankly, is overwhelming to me so I just end up doing the same few things over and over ad nauseum. Those types of games just aren't for me, but they clearly have an audience somewhere.
To me I think Half Life killed the genre. And I hate it when people praise HL1 and HL2, as I see them as the first horsemen of the apocalypse and the downfall of good FPS games (and also of good level design that isn't fucking linear)
Warren Spector just posted this 2 hours ago on his facebook: "Who is this Mark Brown guy?". I think you did something right :)
Besides that: subscribed. You have excellent content
The remake of Prey was most definitely NOT my first immersive SIM game, but it was one of the best experiences I’ve had in my life as a gamer. Such a great genre of game.
I like that there's Deus Ex 1 music playing in the background during the larger half of the video. :)
Immersive sims are perhaps slower to develop, but they use code more efficiently and are so much more fun to develop - especially with a dash of procedural generation
Maybe because people who put enough effort into making them also make enough effort to write efficient code?
IS bioshock really a Imersive sim? Besides the harvest the girls or not choice, there ins't alot of input in the story progression, ritgh?
There is creative ways to take out (Or not) big daddies, there is also the way you combine and where you use plasmids. Its not just story, alot of people in the comments seem to think it is story change, but its mostly an openness to game-play and game elements.
yes i think thats the point of the whole plot that choices dont make a difference the choice is only a perception an illusion ever wonder why theirs parts were you cant progress until you press x or something its literally telling you even though you chose to press x you really didnt have a choice. its genius!
The System shock games were, Bioshock dropped the ball on that one. It isn't or it does it so minimal it seems like it isn't. One of the reasons why I am a SShock fan and Bioshock didn't do anything for me.
Bioshock is mini version of System Shock 2. It's linear game and very streamlined. In my opinion, it doesn't simulate the environment and give control to the player as much as System Shock 2.
It's supposed to have the plasmids for different powers to have more choices of how to take enemies, although somehow these felt like no real choices but gimmicks to me. I don't know but Bioshock didn't do much to my liking, while I had a blast with Deus Ex and the possibility space.
Goddamnit Deus Ex is such a great Game. I wish someone could replicate that
The problem is, how to replicate perfection?
Or remake it. Imagine the amount of money it'll make for the Dev's & publisher.
vtmb is on par in my opinion, maybe better (subjectively)
BioShock only /looks/ like an Immersive Sim. It is a largely linear shooter with loads of scripted sequences and some light RPG mechanics. It's incredibly frustrating because I keep trying to play it like an immersive sim and I just get burned for it.
I went in thinking Bioshock would be the next big thing after Deus Ex like the hype suggested. I was so disappointed. It didn't even come close to the likes of System Shock, Deus Ex or Thief. I suppose it wouln't sell well to the masses if the game was actually immersive in nature.
Yeah all you do is just march along and shoot there is some secret paths and the only choice in gameplay is about the little sisters
all these games are like that though. They don't live up to the potential of the technology.
you mean like the original deus ex?
Yeah just now finished system shock 2 and I was just blown away by the amount of options bioshock didn't had. Somehow this 20 yo game had more options than anything I ever played before it.
- Branching skills
- multiple levels of psi
- Upgrading weapons with skills so you have to specialize
- Hacking with skills (You have to put points into it
- The Massive levels and backtracking
- Different fire modes
- The amount of weapons and powers
- The level of detail in the environment and interactions
- The item inventory
- Weapons maintenance
The most interesting part of these games for me is that the mixing systems is usually seen as a bad thing for developers, because it could bring unforeseen (if sometimes ridiculous and hilarious) results. Here the developers had to be aware to an extent of the systems' limitations and how the interact, as bug fixing would be a nightmare otherwise.
They put the game experience over the effort to make the game. And that is awesome
The whole reason I got Skyrim was because I saw the weird workarounds and bugs funny as hell and wanted to try it too
I love Immersive Sims. This genre takes full advantage of gaming medium's strengths and simulates real life like scenarios and gives players bunch of tools to survive the level. For too long devs were obsessed with creating movie like scenarios by following Gears and Call of Duty instead of giving full control to the player like games like Deus Ex, System Shock, Thief, Deus Ex, STALKER etc did back then.
That's what made those games so immersive. I'm glad that games like Deus Ex: MD, System Shock 3, Dishonored 2, Underworld: Ascendant etc are bringing back this genre.
Not a genre, but a design philosophy.
We can add Prey to this list now :)
My second-favorite game ever. (First is Baldur's Gate II)
I know this is an old video, but don't forget that Pathologic is also getting a remake! It's definitely one of those incredibly open ended (and harsh) games that I'm happy is being revamped and made more accessible.
French subtitles has been submetted for checking, coming in a few hours ^^
Les sous-titres français ont été soumis à la vérification, ça arrive dans quelques heures ^^
And they're live! Thanks Honeyxilim, much appreciated :D
Sometimes it's like you make this series just for me. I had no idea what an immersive sim was, nor had I heard of any of those games. Thanks for making this so accessible to the casuals :P
sadly the return is falling again, while a loved Mankind Divided, Dishonored 2 and Prey, they all seem to have severely under-preformed
Amr Sabbagh I hate dishonored, not a fan of the genre or the way it's a watered-down thief.
Prey was a masterpiece, it was like a system shock 3, and mankind divided was good, but it will never touch the first Deus ex!
I love JC Denton!
@@Dev-nr4dw it was not a BLM analogy idiot. It was a general racism/prejudice analogy. If it didn't click in your head it just means you're one of the kids who thought school sucked and didnt pay attention in history class
@@Dev-nr4dw You have never heard of apartheid then? How it was commonplace in many many countries until just recently and is still going in countries like india. In india the caste system is abolished, but folks who are identified as untouchables are still very much shunned and denied of entry to anywhere.
BLM is nothing compared to what happened in history and what will possibly happen again. Imagine if your skin tone is just a bit different from the other folks around you and thus you are not allowed in any restaurants, hotels, most shops, cinemas, you or your kids can't go to local schools, you can only use certain buses and train cars and in places where you are allowed you must use the back door. Prices for you will be much higher and you will be cursed on everywhere you go, constantly. You have no access to good jobs or schools at all. Again, BLM is (while commendable effort) is peanuts compared to what it used to be.
@@titus17 or maybe it just means he's from one of the myriads of countries where that shit doesn't happen, thus your virtue signaling means nothing. it's only you americans and western europeans who constantly care about it and actively fan the flames of it to then try to arrogantly show everyone else how virtuous and forward thinking you are to score brownie points. the rest of us outside of your collapsing empires doesn't give a damn.
@@johnstark7850 Adam Jensen seems to lack the self-aware sarcastic humor of JC Denton
9:06 you have no idea how much I agree with this statement. Ever since growing up in the 90s I've always wanted to see those games polished to the level we see games as of today. All I've ever wanted this past decade is another game that inherits the design philosophies of looking glass and troika games studios. Design is so damn important for these types of games, and I feel that over the past couple of generations it has been overlooked in favor of graphics. It'll be a dream come true if games begin to adopt more flexible design standards
Freddy Ferguson perhaps games like mankind divided, bloodborne, and yooka laylee will fit your tastes
@@randomguy6679 Mankind Divided fall way short if viewed as a Immersive Sim.
The mention of Bloodborne and Yooka Laylee though were just jarring, they just don't belong in this conversation because their gameplay focus lies completely elsewhere.
The philosophy of building your game AROUND a simulation is the best way to go about game design, no matter the genre.
Immersive sims are my favorite genre (if they could be called a genre). This video was basically a list of my most beloved video game series
Design philosophy, actually. Almost any actual genre can be designed with that beautiful philosophy in mind.
@@cormano64 Any genres you'd like to see it applied to that it hasn't?
One of the reasons why stealth is one of my absolute favorite genres in gaming! Not all stealth games are very good, and not all of them follow this philosophy, but many of the very best ones are insanely systemic and allow a ridiculous degree of creative thinking. This is instantly enjoyable to me. I like games that you don't just play, but that you can play with.
Even if a game is, on the surface, a fairly simple one with limited mechanics and primitive enemy behavior, as long as the developer had the foresight to let different systems interlock and begin changing the nature of the game in real time, and the courage to grant the player the tools to incite these reactions on a whim, you will hopefully end up with a seamless blend of natural, strategic thinking and skillful, dexterous execution that happens so intuitively to the player that, to me, it's more satisfying and fulfilling than anything any other type of single player experience can provide.
In other words, if you haven't played Mark of the Ninja, you probably should go do that! It's not a simulation, really... It's not big. It's not very complex. But by god, does it ever lay its systems bare and let you explore them to its fullest... So, thanks for reminding me of that game! And thanks for an amazing video series, in general, of course.
i agree. Thief 1 and 2 are my all time favorite games and i still play them today. there is no other stealth game out today that even comes close
If you're looking for a stealth game with a ton of options you should try Styx Shards of Darkness. The game is backed to bursting with all kinds of tools and abilities to exploit the game systems in novel ways. Luring enemies away from something you want to steal by using a disposable clone, for example. It's honestly the best stealth game I've played since finishing the Theif trilogy.
The previous game, Styx Master of Shadows is also pretty good, but is much more restrictive of what equipment you can have at any given time, and combined with frequent stealth "bottlenecks" often makes you feel like you have only one or two real options for moving forward, so I'm not sure how much I can recommend it.
So. Much. Great. Music. Deus Ex had a hell of a soundtrack, in addition to all the great stuff it did besides.
Can I double upvote please? This is a top notch video, excellently written, thought out and compiled. It perfectly summarises everything that I like most about games (and especially those aforementioned games).
A video about my favorite kind of game? I love you.
I've always said that these games(Thief, Ultima Underworld, Deus Ex) would be the absolute pinnacle of gaming with today's technology, and with a talented team with a good budget and no publishers trying to ruin things in the process.
Thief 2 is still in my eyes one of the best games ever made, imagine the game with all the AI and physics improvements we've discovered in these years but with the same talent and design philosophy behind the project.
When Manderley told me to stay out of the women's restroom, that blew my mind back in the day.
Definitely a memorable moment. A great way to tell the player: "You sure can do anything, but be prepared for the consequences".
Still does today
Did you then go into the woman's bathroom to spite him ? You would've had an interesting shock later if you did.
@@patrickj "You sure can do anything, but be prepared for the consequences"
That has been my dream for videogames for decades.
Glad you made this video. After first playing Dishonored in 2012 and then going back to Deus Ex 1 this year for the first time I really think these types of games are super underrated for what they are doing. Your point on going back and remaking the older immersive sims with today's tech is also super important for people to understand. These are the types of games developers look the most forward to. To me they are absolutely at the end of the complexity chain of video game making: super hard to get right.
I would engourage people to go back and play the first Deus Ex with the new Revision mod. It stands the test of time in terms of gameplay and level design. It's amazing how the indusrty hasn't made more of these games.
Gmdx actually fixes gameplay and retains the original games aesthetic. I recommend it dude revision actually breaks the game even more especially by making everything bright making stealth pointless
So who here dances like Jenson does at 10:56?
Me when forced to by my fam. I despise dancing.
Hey Mark, given the reactions to No Man's Sky, I'd be very interested in seeing an episode dedicated to procedural games and letting players tell their own story, comparing and contrasting games like No Man's Sky, Dwarf Fortress, and the many games in between.
Great video as always. Thanks Mark
Ah, so nice to see that people still remember and value "Pathologic"! It was a rather obscure treasure many people missed.
This depresses me because it shows how simple games have become.
This makes me happy because it shows how awesome games are going to be again very soon.
Games like System Shock 3 and Underworld: Ascendant are giving me hope.
after seeing breath of the wild, I can agree on that considering it is now unscripted in large sections, guess that's the benefit of a physics engine.
If you want immersive games with the qualities listed, there's real life. If you want a break from real life, you play simple games.
Or rather, how increasingly complex game development got to make games ever so simple.
The New Deus Ex games break immersion every single time one uses the pre-animated melee-super-punches.
Adam Jensen IS augmented. Besides, one could destroy rockets in flight in Deus Ex, so why not punch people to death?
@@shaorrran6305 it's not the punching people to death part silly, it's the flow breaking animation during which you're not in control of the character; reducing melee from proper gameplay into a binary decision that always succeeds.
@@khatack Okay, I got your point now. Sorry.
People keep saying Human Revolution is the closest to Deus Ex yet it's far from that. They just see the game has Augs, Cyberpunk motif and a stripped down version of the original's RPG elements.
Dishonored is a better Deus Ex game than Human Revolution.
@That Other NCR Ranger Well that's your own personal shame to bear.
Does MGSV count? I haven't seen a game that had such a reactive AI countering strategies for each play style.
Partially. The game follows many of the core tenets of immersive sims, most importantly that it always offers a large number of solutions and is comprised of consistent systems that can be reliably exploited throughout the entire game. However, its story is entirely linear and does not react to your actions at all, which is not in line with immersive sim ideals. That doesn't make it a bad game: it is in fact a truly excellent games, just not a true immersive sim.
In fairness, very few games made these days count as true immersive sims in my book. Even Deus Ex: Human Revolution, the successor to the ultimate immersive sim, relies too much on "gamey" mechanics, one-off scenarios and cutscenes to be considered one. I guess Dishonored counts as an immersive sim, but that's about it.
Metal Gear Solid V is the poor mans Chaos Theory. Splinter Cell 2,3 (Chaos Theory, my favorite game of all time and the best) and 4 is what you are looking for in a third-person stealth sim. Absolutly superb.
+Luis Páez but Splinter Cell is a poor man's thief :^)
And Thief is the poor mans... uhm, poor mans... I got nothing. Can't argue that Thief is the apex of stealth simulation and I say this with Chaos theory being my favorite game of all time.
Chaos Theory? Racist? How?
Nice episode. French subtitles are coming over right away :D
Makes me want to really work on my "thief" game.
It's not going to be called thief though.
that's a smart idea
Kinos141 i played the dark project that some fans created and noticed the level design way to linear so i guess its a hard thing to do just be carefull withthe gamedesign and dont forget what its supposed to be
Raees Ahmad Thanks for the tip. I'll take it to heart.
"i played the dark project that some fans created" Could you please provide the actual name?
I think he's talking about The Dark Mod, unless he meants Thief: The Dark Project.
where would you put Gothic 1 and Gothic 2? inspired by Ultima, difficulty of dark souls, revolutionary action RPG that started the NPC night/day cycles in a living world, open world but not a theme park or sandbox, would it be an immersive sim?
+Jan P. Maybe, I haven't played those but i have heard them described as immersive sims, yeah
oh, you should try them, real gems, pretty immersive for being 3rd person only, but again graphics, camera or minimalist HUD don't have influence on immersion IMO it's much more subtle
these games have probably the best character progression system implemented in a game to date, I have never felt the same feeling in any other game, from being lvl 1 character and then lvl 10 character, the attention to detail in 16years old game is impressive, there are some good reviews on youtube from Durmin Paradox and RagnarRox
what gets me is that this entire Genre, or Design philosophy, is standing on the fragile pillars of just the same handful of creative people: Warren spector, Paul Neurath, Ken Levine, Raphaël Colantonio, Harvey Smith.
im glad they are facing a resurgence, similar to CRPGs, but we really need more studios braving the challenge.
Ken Levine doesn't belong here ever since Bioshock
ooooh... when i hear those Deus Ex tunes i shiver with joy ^_^
As ever Mark, I hugely enjoyed this video and am a little sad that I have to wait for the next one. Thank you so much for the clear and present care you put into each and every scripting/editing choice. Ugh. Too good.
3:36 It's almost as if they're VIDEO GAMES!
Video games can do much much more tho.
Not all games are immersive nor aim to be, it almost as if you should watch the video and comment with a little more thought.
Wasting your potential for being a rollercoaster ride is not really a good thing to be tbqh fam
+Quasindro The wipeout series, practically any platformer or fighting game, Portal and jRPGs can all be deemed "rollercoasters" that push the player towards the same end result with few "correct solutions" and are still quality games from which people can draw hours of fun.
he never said that those games are worse, just different
I would be very happy to play a Deus Ex remaster where I can see what the actual shit is happening on my screen. FFS, when I heard that Deus Ex was a pretty dark game, I thought you all meant that figuratively, damnit!
Deus ex isn't actually that dark. Looks like a problem with youtube.
use your flashlight aug
I think along with the games you mentioned that roguelikes follow a lot of those same rules. Many of the new action based roguelikes like spelunky, BoI, nuclear throne, etc are almost entirely systemic. A spelunky level can generate two dart traps and a bunch of enemies that might create a chance for something cool. The player knows how both work but the fun comes from the player using one to deal with another.
My favorite design philosophy gets a spotlight, I love it. Thank you for this episode, Mark. I'd love for there to be a topic on the criticisms of said philosophy. I'm very excited for its future as it has a lot to apply and a lot to learn.
Immersive Sims AKA True RPGs :)
NWN, DA, fallout NV, plane scape, baldur's gate and etc... we will never have true masterpieces like these anymore...
Yeah we will, eventually
@@monsieurbubbles938 its rare but we will.
@@hfo4326
Divinity Original Sin 2?
such game design philosophy is most apparent in MGS:V imo
i played the whole game fully lethal and killed everyone didnt change a damn thing
that's not what an immersive sim is supposed to do though. How should people react in your opinion? "Hey Boss, good job?"?
You are playing a "bad guy"
It's not about good or evil, its about other things. I mean I agree though that MGS5 is not really an immersive sim, but still it has elements.
Metal Gear Solid V is the poor mans Chaos Theory. Splinter Cell 2,3 (Chaos Theory, my favorite game of all time and the best) and 4 is what you are looking for in a third-person stealth sim. Absolutly superb.
MGSV is a stealth\action sandbox, it's basically like Deus Ex, but without plot (he-he) - you are given objectives and tools, and it's up to you how to complete your mission. The number of scripts is minimal, like there are no enemies appearing out of nowhere and rules are predetermined. Every player plays it 'completely' differently.
Crowbar yea it is it would change the story i played like that in deus ex and it changed the story alot my actions had cause and effect in MGSV my actions had no effect thats the difference between a immersive sim and a rpg
Very well done, narrated, great footage that goes with said narration. Great job!
This is becoming one of my favorite gaming channels, what you talk about is very well thought out and completely accurate. I'm very nervous about system shock 3, I'm afraid it'll get that modern simplified feel.
Imm Sims have amazing worlds, amazing atmosperes, stories and amazing gameplays. That's it and that's why i'm so big fan. They're just perfect and they need to come back.
Do these games have to be First-Person and do you have any examples of a game of this type from a third person perspective?
I guess that's up for debate. Metal Gear Solid V is a good argument that they can work in third person.
+Mark Brown (Game Maker's Toolkit) Haven't played that yet, but it's certainly at the top of my list.
+John Smith if you had PS plus a few months a ago you would have got it for free
+Infinity Games I don't have a Playstation unfortunately. I sold my Ps3 to a cousin when I built my pc.
+Daniel W I think there's a bit of a difference. The immersive sim is something I more associate with Mario Brothers, a sort of level by level game with several pathways winding into one another. Dark Souls and Mass Effect both rely more on a sort of congealing narrative rather than immediate player agency. They both fall into that sort of water cooler effect that Zero Punctuation talk about, but the choices don't feel as organic.
Any and all videos where you talk about this genre and games within it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your informative videos.
Thanks so much for putting into words what makes me excited about making games much more eloquently than I could. I'll be looking back to this video for ages.
Oh fuck. 30 seconds in and you already blew me away with a list of games I didn't know where happening!!!! So exciting
Your videos are amazing! I learn so much from your analysis. What is your research process like?
+Wes Alm Exhausting :P
Can you be more espefic? I'm really intrested as well! :)
Excepting for the “Body of the Many”, what made System Shock 2 so totally immersive was, the sound design, and simple and stark interiors that looked amazingly realistic for the time.
In current games they go all out on visuals that don't do anything. Machine parts, pipes, ornate walls, overgrown vegetation and agoraphobic panoramas. They do it today because they can, but sometimes less is more. Too much graphic detail can amount to too much clutter and confusion.
Just a thought...
Hey Mark! I just wanted to point out a 2005 FPS stealth and action game from PS2 and PC called "commandos strike force" where you control commandos in WWII in pretty open missions with multiple optional objectives. It was a Spanish game and its biggest flaw is that you can't carry corpses around, but missions 6, 7 and 13 (eye for an eye) are great because of the level of freedom you are given in how to approach the objectives
Would you consider the upcoming The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild as an immersive sim? While it is not in First Person, the interweaving mechanics that allow the player more agency and more emergent actions and moments to exploit the game's preset physics and rules feels like it fits a lot of what you're describing here.
It's definitely borrowing a lot from these games. We'll have to wait and see if that's exactly what they're going for
> Zelda
> Immersive Sim
I'm rock hard
The thing is that we really should not say that (Hey this game is not FPS then it's not immersive sim) when the game give you enough tools/systems and let u be free in your mind palace to solve problems and makes u "Immersed" in the world then it's immersive sim. so many games Like RDR 2, The Witcher, Ghost of Tsushima, Death Stranding, MGS 5, Watch Dogs Legion and ... are not FPS but the ways they give you creative freedom, they are immersive sim in their own way
@@aligoudarzi3724 yeah genre purism shouldn't get in the way of innovation
Immersive sims regressed into open world collect-o-thons.
You are insulting the collectathon genre.
Old-school collectathons were immensely enjoyable (Banjo-Kazooie FTW!) because they concentrated on making collecting stuff fun and rewarding. Todays games aren't collectathones, they are clean-up simulators - "here, have a map with 7645 flashing icons on it, now grab your mop and start scrubbing, there-s a nice juicy achievement for you in the end. Btw, how's your OCD?"
More like, Ubisoft is now a thing.
strelok Mankind Divided alone won't make much of a dent in the collect-a-thon genre. Sadly.
"Clean-up simulators" now that's a definition that I'm going to adapt into my gamers lingo
At this point I think Ubisoft is it's own genre
great job, ill be linking this about to people.. but the "tenants" at 2:25 melted my brain for a few seconds.
I love the amount of thought that goes into these videos.
i played deus ex when i was in middle school. at the time it was one of the most awesome things i experienced.
now i see some of the flaws it had which saddens me but i still respect the idea that it attempted to make a reality.
Undertale and its inevitable influencees i think walk a fine line between the historically divergent camps of emergent and scripted stories. Instead of the scripted designer's "lets take the player along for a authored roller coaster ride" and the emergent designer's "let's give the player a goal oriented systemic sandbox to play in," this middle ground designer is doing something somewhat similar to old point-and-click games. They're using some systems to track and react to player actions in both the short and long term, but also authoring content in a way that almost seems like a conversation. It's really exciting for me, and feels a lot closer to my own tabletop sessions than ever I felt in grand simulations like far cry 2 or morrowind.
This middle ground is one of the things I love the most - the game recognizing when the player does something unusual and reacting to their choices and actions. That effort put into something only 10% or even 0.1% of players will ever even see results in tons of awesome moments and makes the world feel alive.
Undertale executes this better than virtually any other game (save perhaps something like Nethack), and I hope its charm & success inspires more devs to take this approach to their games.
YOU TWO should take a look at "Dwarf Fortress".
I have absolutely no idea what people are talking about whenever they discuss anything Undertale. I haven't given it a fair shake I'll admit, I played it for a few hours and liked it well enough but ended up dropping it for something else intending to come back later.
Without spoilers can you better explain what this "middle-ground" between emergent and scripted gameplay is that Undertale takes in it's design? If you can't explain without spoiling that's fine I'm going to finish the game eventually, I just can't wrap my head around it and usually I have no problems understanding what people mean when they discuss games I haven't played, I often get convinced to play games that way but with Undertale? Everything is just nonsense. That either means the game is so deep you must play it to even begin to understand it or it's massively overrated. Maybe I'll boot up Undertale again tonight to find out.
This was a wonderful explanation of the genre that has enamored us all for so many years. My favorite games and experiences are from these style games. Thank you for making this video.
Hey I just wanted to say I love your videos. Thanks for putting in the effort for these. It's taught me quite a bit and helped me teach these concepts far more concisely.
Thanks!
Trying to do an immersive sim in VR might be scoping a bit too big as it stands-- arguably any game that involves moving around isn't a good fit for current VR hardware. Looking forward to Cooking Mama VR though.
Half-Life 3... with A.I that responds to the player's audio input. Quite limited though.
I didn't call it "dooze ex" because I wouldn't be released for a year after it
What a delightful video, Mr. Brown. :-) As an enthusiast of this design philosophy, you get a thumbs up from me.
I often like to encapsulate this design philosophy as not being about dropping players into a level they need to clear, but into a whole little world to explore and understand and interact with at their own leisure.
This is what always burned me about games from the 7th gen onwards. Here we got these hardware systems capable of advanced graphical *and* mechanical simulations... and AAA devs are balls deep in these pseudo-interactive heavily scripted hollywood envy corridor shooter games like Call of Doody, Uncharted, The Last of Us, Gears of War etc. etc. For hardware that was sold on its capabilities, devs couldn't be less interested in programming mechanically rich simulations. Heck even Skyrim, from a series and developer famous for Daggerfall - a game that boasts a depth and breadth of mechanical simulation almost exclusively unmatched in any game - released Skyrim, a shallow bare bones mechanically desolate rpg that eliminated the vast majority of the systems of its immediate predecessor and stripped the remainder to the absolute barest minimum.
Child0fVis0n what's wrong with the last of us?
Child0fVis0n Well said! Most game developers are lazy and not creative, so they end up spitting out half-assed "RPGs" that has the majority of its effort focused on graphics. RPGs have been dumbed down to appeal to more people, which was a huge mistake. Money has become more important than making a product of passion. It decimates my soul to watch as our advancements in technology have only yielded a regression in game design.
@@randomguy6679 Well, nothing. It's well written, well crafted, beautiful etc.
But it bothered me how you can undergo same experience while watching any good post-apocalyptic movie.
It's not because of devs
It's because console gaming was always about pure, simple fun and and when the worlds of PCs and Consoles merged, the latter was more popular and its game design principles were a lot easier to execute in practice
Of all the games to finally start selling people on immersive sims, its fucking Breath of the Wild. A bunch of Japanese dudes, who probably haven't even touched western PC games since Wizardry, played Skyrim and realized it would be better if it didn't think for you. I only hope Todd Howard plays BOTW and realizes it has what their games have been missing since Morrowind.
Skyrim and BOTW aren't ImSim, though, they're RPGs.
Vanzgars just Vanzgars Skyrim is a sandbox action game while BoTW is an action/adventure with an old school style of open world.
Vanzgars just Vanzgars
But BOTW definitely borrowed immersive sim elements is the point that person is trying to make, and more closer to, say, UU than any TES has done in a while.
Didn't do it very well when messing around with physics is pointless because flurry Rush is completely broken and enemies are damage sponges
7:24 That's why I was confused when he mentioned Deus Ex getting a fourth game. I had completely forgotten that game.
really a great episode! you just sumed up my favourite video game genre. till now I couldn't really put a finger on why I liked such games so much!
Just cause 3 is an interesting case because it allows the player to create their own awesome looking action scenes without the boring cutscene that you wish you could control
EYE:Divine cybermancy is crazy for that it's not the best game but almost everything that happens is unique and different
An excellent watch as ever - almost expected a mention of an old favourite terra nova: strike force centauri which came between thief and system shock. It did some super interesting things with both anachronistically detailed controls and missions that were free to roam around in, but which had timelines for events which your approach and loadout could take advantage of in some cool ways.
Nice touch with the jewel cases at 2:26
Immersive Sim AKA 0451 games
And here I was thinking immersive sims were games like Silent Service.
Nice one! Did you know that Silent Service was an inspiration to the devs for Thief: The Dark Project?
Came here from Harvey Smith's retweet; this was very insightful and I'm definitely subscribing for more!
A fantastically immersive sim that I really like is Uplink. It's nothing like the games you talked about. It's not 3D, there's not even a world to run about in. Instead, you're a hacker, remotely connecting to a terminal interface. Despite (or possibly _because_ of) this limitation, the world of Uplink feels incredibly connected where everything has an effect on everything else.
You can frame people by modifying your routing logs, so they point to their IP instead of yours.
You can find out the server admin of a company, get him arrested (through the Global Criminal Database) or just frame him and he gets replaced, as you can check.
Destroying a company's servers makes their stocks plummet. Fulfilling missions for them makes them rise.
You can install a motion sensor at your terminal and if you order multiple hardware parts for it in quick succession, it goes off due to all the delivery men.
If you hack into a specific server before the main quest dictates, you can grab a file that would otherwise get removed a few days later. Using that, you can actually finish it early.
If you become particularly dangerous, companies start offering quests to track _you_.
It's just such a good game and so very different from most other immersive sims.
Deadly Shadows was great...
Little does this guy know the genre will be abandoned again and he doesn’t know about cyberpunk
What a breakdown of the roots of the genre. That analytical frame in which you chacterized every key element of the game is impressive. Saying smart things in youtube is rare, many thanks.
Event though I am somewhat on a binge of your videos, I avoided this one a bit since I haven't played most of the games this is about. However, after giving it s chance, I have to give you major props for making your videos as accessible and interesting as they are while being quite educating. I really enjoyed it.
I think the new Zelda may be kinda like that
It is, and maybe the best in class. We may have to find Warren Spector's jaw.
I liked this, but:
---these games are still very scripted
---they are mostly limited to "levels", not open worlds
---they already have cinematics, so you can easily shove those rollercoaster/quick-time events in them, no problem @10:15
---contrary to the idea that "games are the only medium that allows choice" @10:30, there are choose-your-own-adventure BOOKS that often have a larger number of possible "paths" and endings than these scripted, mostly-linear games!
For contrast, check out Dwarf Fortress. I'm pretty sure it avoids these kinds of limitations, and simulates way more. (alas, it's not a first person game! And it uses a grid system, presumably that makes the simulation easier)
Great video. I love these style of games, and am so amped for Dishonored II. The first Dishonored was so amazingly fun, and everything I had been missing about stealth games for a very long time. Hope we see more and more of these types come out.
A game that reminds me a lot of this is Heat Signature, for example, getting stuck in space with no pod, you can propel yourself WALL-E style with firing a gun back towards the ship you were in.
The immersive sims of today get a number of things wrong in my opinion:
-*Never, ever, ever give the player any waypoints! It should not even be an option!* Waypoints are a way for stupid people to lazily slog their way through the world without becoming familiar with it or paying attention to who and what inhabit it. Force players to become familiar with their environment, as you're trying to create a place instead of a level.
-Make players suck, at least early on. In Thief, you were as fragile as porcelain from start to finish. In System Shock, you were barely even equipped to defend yourself. In Deus Ex, you were a recruit fresh out of the academy who could barely aim a pistol straight. Dishonored turns you into a teleporting, time manipulating, tornado shooting badass within the first couple hours of the game. Deus Ex HR fares a little better, but it still has obnoxious elements like regenerating health and sticky cover (where you can see around corners without putting yourself into the enemy's line of sight).
-Audio, audio, audio. Why is the concept of hearing footsteps so goddamn foreign to modern designers?
Personally, I don't think we have had an immersive sims for years. Games like Fallout and TES are immersive sims that have, with a lack of a better description, "fallen to the dark side". Waypoints, powerful hero, all of these are there to capture the roller coaster crowd, because as Mark mentioned, immersive sims don't sell. Shame really, I sure hope this resurgent of the genre will bring back some decent open world RPG that isn't trying to copy the success of those tightly scripted roller coaster games(ie FO4 and its attempt at father-child story a la TLoU).
DrearierSpider1 Let's not forget the all-knowing enemy radar that absolutely kills tension! We don't want the player to intelligently work out where enemies are.
and this is why thief will always be my favorite game of all time
"-Make players suck, at least early on."
This falls more on what difficulty you want your game to have than being a good Immersive Sim, but I concur with the other two points.
I kinda disagree with your second point even though I agree with the general idea. But what Dishonored does well is that it gives you tools, not the skill to use it. You can have all health upgrads you want, if you suck at using the mechanics for the plan you designed, you'll fail miserably while mastering them allows you to make your own path and live with its consequences. It's not about the power of your abilities, it's about how you can make the abilities be meaningful when entertwined with the systems which, IMHO, Dishonored does really well. For example, you can indeed use very powerful powers nearly right at the start but their mana cost are high, meaning that it's easy for two-three situations, now let's deal with the rest but now manaless. It's one way, but there are many others and they nearly all lowkey force you to think differently because you're still weak without mastering your powers.
By the way, if you just want to end the game, Dishonored is relatively easy, but with the broad of own objectives like "never getting spotted" or "killing in a certain way" makes your choices matter, not necessarily for the game but for you.
A way to make it even more interresting and still keep this part as is would be to make the game respond to your used tactics the way MGSV gives specific gear to soldiers based on the mechanics you used. Though it is something that is incredibly difficult to do as some methods will feel underwhelmed by this system, penalising players with such playstyles.
Um, Westerado.
Totally. Westerado is the 2D version of an immersive sim.
Absolutely adored this vid, thank you so much, it's great to see people talking about immersive sims again!
Hey Mark! Glad to know I'm not the only one excited by this comeback.
Don't know if this is too on the technical side, but Harvey Smith and Randy Smith gave a GDC talk on how they make their immersive sims work. It's called "Stim and Response", and has been used in most of the games you list in the video.
The PowerPoint for this can be found by searching "Practical Techniques for Implementing Emergent Gameplay". Unfortunately I haven't been able to find the audio for the talk, but I think the idea can still be understood from the slides alone. Thanks buddy!
+Jared Mitchell I saw the slides for the latter but I don't think I caught the Stim and Response one. I'll track it down, thanks
It's in the Emergent Gameplay slides, but looking back through them I guess "Stim and Response" wasn't as prominently featured as I thought. Check out slides 38-41 from there.
Looking Glass Studio was the best video game developer that ever was and ever will be....No one will even come close