How do Stealth Games Deal with Detection? - School of Stealth Part 3
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- Опубліковано 14 чер 2024
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Welcome back to the School of Stealth, a GMTK miniseries on how stealth games work. In episode three, it's time to tackle the biggest challenge of stealth game design: detection. In a genre that's all about staying hidden, what should designers do when the player is found?
Sources
Modelling AI Perception and Awareness in Splinter Cell: Blacklist | GDC Vault (Free Access)
www.gdcvault.com/play/1020436...
Pac-Man (Design Icons) | Game Maker's Toolkit
• What Pac-Man Brought t...
Video chapters
00:00 - Introduction
01:37 - Video Game AI
03:40 - Improving Guard Detection
08:14 - Dealing with Quick Load
12:13 - Conclusion
Games shown in this episode (in order of appearance)
Metal Gear Solid (Konami, 1998)
Volume (Mike Bithell, 2015)
Metal Gear (Konami, 1987)
Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain (Kojima Productions, 2015)
Days Gone (SIE Bend Studio, 2019)
Marvel’s Spider-Man (Insomniac Games, 2018)
Call of Duty: WWII (Sledgehammer Games, 2017)
Uncharted 2: Among Thieves (Naughty Dog, 2009)
Wolfenstein II: The New Colossus (MachineGames, 2017)
Far Cry 4 (Ubisoft Montreal, 2014)
Hitman 2 (IO Interactive, 2018)
Mass Effect 2 (BioWare, 2010)
Halo 2 (Bungie, 2004)
Mark of the Ninja (Klei Entertainment, 2012)
Pac-Man (Namco, 1980)
Dishonored 2 (Arkane Studios, 2016)
The Last of Us (Naughty Dog, 2013)
Splinter Cell: Blacklist (Ubisoft Toronto, 2013)
Monaco: What’s Yours Is Mine (Pocketwatch Games, 2013)
Metro 2033 (4A Games, 2010)
Dishonored (Arkane Studios, 2012)
Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor (Monolith Productions, 2014)
Assassin's Creed: Origins (Ubisoft Montreal, 2017)
Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater (Konami, 2004)
Batman: Arkham Asylum (Rocksteady Studios, 2009)
Untitled Goose Game (House House, 2019)
Batman: Arkham City (Rocksteady Studios, 2011)
Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory (Ubisoft Montreal, 2005)
Shadow Tactics: Blades of the Shogun (Mimimi, 2016)
Thief: The Dark Project (Looking Glass Studios, 1998)
Styx: Shards of Darkness (Cyanide, 2017)
Spelunky (Derek Yu, 2012)
Assault Android Cactus (Witch Beam, 2015)
Batman: Arkham Knight (Rocksteady Studios, 2015)
Shadow of the Tomb Raider (Eidos Montreal, 2018)
F1 2019 (Codemasters, 2019)
Forza Motorsport 6 (Turn 10 Studios, 2015)
GRID Autosport (Codemasters, 2014)
Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood (Ubisoft Montreal, 2010)
Silent Service II (MicroProse, 1990)
ECHO (Ultra Ultra, 2017)
Music used in this episode
Music provided by Music Vine - musicvine.com/
As I Was Saying, Lee Rosevere (leerosevere.bandcamp.com/trac...)
Contribute translated subtitles - amara.org/v/C3BDr/ - Ігри
Guard: "You hear that?!"
Other guard: "of course I hear it. We're in a warehouse with thousands of other people, of course there's noise"
Guard: "like the wind right?"
Other guard: "what's wrong with you?!"
Snake: "I know right?"
"must have been the rats"
Thats true I love how guards can instantly hear the difference of my footsteps
These videos are always incredibly interesting, it doesn't matter what the subject is, thanks for making them.
Since you're briefly mentioning race game, I would love you to do a video on that subject, especially the multiplayer part of it, since it raises a challenge most developers seems to ignore or handle poorly : how to make the race tense from start to finish when very often it becomes impossible for a player to catch-up with another one ?
Sure the blue shell or any other form of handicap is a solution, but it's more like a bandaid, one you see only on racing games.
My thoughts exactly!
@@GaiLuron578if anything, I'd compare or mention the red mushrooms, because they dont punish a player in first, but rather strengthen a player in a worse situation.
But even then, I'd make the argument that if you wish to make the racing game heavier on skill, having items such as in Kart games, are not ideal.
I dont believe that there is a remedy. Its mostly down to skill, and also a tad bit of luck. Its like fighting games; there is always a loser.
If you are thinking about gamedesign and you are here at youtube - you cannot avoid to stumble across Game Makers Toolkit. Great essays all of them!
ya it gives me a new look about games
I love how the alien in Alien: Isolation can adapt and does not have such a predictable cycle when hunting the player down. In fact, the more frequently you hide in the same spot, the quicker the alien will be to check those areas, forcing the player to change their tactics.
Weirdly enough, the xenomorph does have a state machine, but there's a tree behind the scenes that changes it as the game goes on
Agreed. Those moments of hiding need to be tense and Alien Isolation does that so well.
Try to play ECHO and you'll be amazed
Haven't played the game, but from what you say it would seem weird if the alien has missed your hiding spot several times then all of a sudden just checks that specific spot
@@Rikard_Nilsson it's not as sudden as you may think. But yeah it picks up on your pattern of play and will start to more aggressively search those areas if you keep hiding in them
Guard: What was that?
*Sees fellow guard dead on the ground*
Also guard: I guess it was nothing.
It was the air
Typical ubisoft AI
huh who's there show your self huh
that's must be the wind
This reminded me of Assassin’s Creed Odyssey’s guards, which if you whistled near them in an indoor room or underground in a cave but then stop whistling, the guards say things like “probably just a bird but I’ll check”. This was a very bruh moment for me because that makes no sense if they’re indoors, which shows that AI are just predesigned and precoded, without paying attention to small details like the environment or situation.
@@ecdudis9557 You've never seen birds indoors?
Honestly, i think that metal gear solid V handled save games best, by having a “no checkpoint usage” criteria in the menu after levels, (where the game awards you grades) which gave you extra points for not reloading the game after getting spotted, which made me feel more inclined to improvise and adapt to getting caught
Hey, I remember that. However, I thought that the bonus would only get nulled if you get killed during gameplay and manual reloading didn't count against that.
Except you also get extra points for not being spotted, which IIRC is even bigger than not reloading. Plus, you can just restart the chapter if you messed up before the first checkpoint.
And if you really wanted to still be perfect and get the S rank, you had to restart the whole mission. Which I think is a fine alternative to save scumming honestly, since most rank run games like DMC for example require you to restart the mission for the best run anyways.
Matthias Tammekivi they have mission restarts, aborted missions, and checkpoint reloading. Checkpoint reloading in an MGSV mission counts as negative points in your mission rank/score
@@Readysetheal which is IMO better than using quick save, it punishes you for getting caught
"Given the opportunity, players will optimise the fun out of a game" - Civ 4 designer, Soren Johnson.
I think if you're trying to make a stealth game immersive, then making specific rewards for players who can nail levels without any mistakes is just shooting yourself in the foot. Small failures like being spotted should not be punished with bad scores or missing achievements, or else player will quicksave and jank their own games to get around them. You should really decide up front whether you want your stealth game to be immersive and realistically tense, or more of an arcade experience with scores and retries. Or maybe do both, but you only get a score if you come back to play the stage again.
Similarly, I think that stealth games often contradict themselves when they specifically reward no-kill runs despite including large arsenals of weapons and items that kill enemies. Playing Dishonoured, I felt like I was missing out on a large part of the game because I was penalised for killing guards, even though that's what most things in your inventory were for.
I totally agree with that. When I play a stealth game like dishonored it's trying to tell me "play however you want" but what I end up thinking is "I have no clue how I should approach the game if I want to have fun", and while I love the game I often ended up just breaking my own fun because of that.
Glad someone said this. When you have a trophy or Platinum requirement that says I have to complete the ENTIRE GAME without ever getting detected, you can bet your ass I', not going to leave that up to random chance. I'm going to save state til dawn to make that work. Don't make such absurd perfection requirements and people would save state less.
Yeah, that last bit is why I slowly and retroactively fell out of love with the Metal Gear series, in addition to its clunky controls that (again, retroactively) felt arbitrary in light of tighter controls in the last game in the series (and tighter controls in contemporary games).
really good metaphor/analogy thingy:
Snake is from a stealth series, and yet, in Super Smash bros, he's a mad bomber, peppering the entire stage with explosives that he can obtain and are in line with his series.
Sonic's core attack/defense/mobility loop in Smash relies on his speed. In Smash 4 and Ultimate, Mario and Luigi's core attack/defense/mobility loops rely on their superior jumping ability.
Snake? Be as loud and flashy as possible by littering the entire stage with grenades, C4 and rockets.
I know that a platform fighter isn't conducive to a stealth mechanic, but it worked for most of the other characters.
Joker, Shulk and Hero have RPG mechanics.
Bayonetta has stylish Brawler based combos.
as mention, Sonic, the Marios and Kirby rely on their platformer-based mobility.
And of course, Ryu, Ken and Terry have custom fighting mechanics)
I think that says something about Snake and Metal Gear, that speedsters and zoning characters have better stealth incentive mechanics than Snake in Super Smash bros, which is supposed to be a celebration of what makes him unique/special.
Back on topic:
It didn't help that, like you said, by endgame, in most MGS games, I had a small militia's worth of weapons I couldn't use. Rocket Launcher? Too loud. Machine Gun/Assault Rifle? Too lethal. Guess I'd better stick to that silenced tranquilizer pistol I've been using the entire game. Why bother giving me anything else to use? And what does that say about what the game wants me to take away from it, especially as Peace Walker and 5 give me more and more powerful weapons?
Worse? Then the game would put me in situations where the stealth mechanics were abandoned (but not the stealth controls), making those situations needlessly frustrating and complicated. I will never forget being stuck in an elevator with 4 dudes and being forced to gun them all down, or the games' various Metal tank fights on foot.
Playing Mark of the Ninja really put into perspective how much I didn't enjoy stealth in MGS anymore.
Sorry for the rant, but you really got me thinking.
Yeah, Dishonored is completely fucked up in this regard, they tie the whole story and "morality system" into it, and to get the best outcome you essentially need to ignore half of the gameplay. Which is a shame, because it's great.
Developers really need to understand *overall* that disincentivizing players from playing *how they want* and allowing them to optimize the fun out of the game are huge issues that need addressing.
I kinda hate that quote. It completely ignores the fact that many (or at least some) players find the act of optimization itself fun. Those players don't optimize the fun out of the game, they inject more fun into it. That phrase just reeks of "How dare you enjoy something in a way I don't enjoy?".
Even if a game is ruined by optimization, don't blame the player - it's a flawed game then, so blame the designer instead. But most of the time it doesn't ruin the game, it often just leads to a different play style than the developer intended, but that doesn't make it a bad play style.
"Without getting into the nerdy details"
BUT THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT
AI And Games has the nerdy details on behavior trees, if you're interested.
He's literally covering an obscure gaming topic to a subscriber base already used to nerdy explanations for stuff.
The only reason we're here is because we're nerds who like those kinds of details. And even if we don't understand them we can always just skip over them.
His channel isn't about the technical details as much as the high-level overview. Mark is the gateway.
@@Madhattersinjeans He really explained all we need to know about FSMs and behavior trees for the purpose of the video (On the level he explained they're basically the same thing), any more than that and we are stepping into the realm of computer science (FSMs specifically have been around since the 40s if not longer) which is not at all what this channel is about.
I would really like to see a discussion about "optional stealth" - how and why stealth is implimented in games that aren't necessary stealth games and what consequences for the gameplay it can have to have stealth system in a general adventure (like, say, GTA) or RPG (Skyrim, etc).
How do stealth *players* Deal with Detection?
"So anyway, I started blasting"
Incorrect. It's "So anyway, I save scummed it."
FPS players when they se a steath player being spotted in a game:
"Why are you running?! Why are you running?!"
Yeah I noticed how many stealth games actually give the player just as much power in combat as they have in stealth. Assassins Creed games were pretty bad about it in the old days when counters were also instant kills on most enemies and Dishonored series give you a plethora of gadgets, magic powers, and a pretty useful sword to quickly wipe out enemies (still fun though!).
I actually am starting to like various games where the game makes it extremely hard (or flat out impossible)for you you to fight the enemy directly. The guns that the thugs use in the Batman Arkham games will tear through the caped crusader if he tries to take on multiple armed baddies in a predator section. and in either of the Styx games, (Master of Shadows/Shards of Darkness) you are playing as a goblin, sneaking around humans, elves, and dwarves. there is a counter kill system to use if you get caught, but other enemies can join in the fight andcut you down quickly. there are also several enemies in both games who will instantly stomp your small green ass in if they get a hold of you and the parry system doesn't work on them, so you are forced to run and hide if you get caught. ( and if you play on the hardest difficulty, Goblin, all guards will instantly kill you if they grab you.) I highly recommend the either of the Styx games if you haven't tried it and need something that doubles down on the stealth.
@Alexander Supertramp That's how you deal with non-detection. With detection you run or blast, or kill, I dunno.
You should not be able to start blasting in a stealth game. That nonsense is for the stealth-action hybrids.
I love how in Swindle or Payday 2 instead of the game changing into a shootout, you have to book it to the escape van, while being hailed with bullets and alarms screaming knowing you messed up but you may just make it out of there with a win!
i hate to be that guy, but the amount of those missions are a minority in a box full of transistors. most missions allow stealth or loud, or even only allow loud.
They you'll love this ua-cam.com/video/cUbyNJKsi7E/v-deo.html If you haven't seen it!
Payday 2 had some interesting ideas for stealth mechanics, but the execution was terrible in my opinion. I always found it incredibly boring and frustrating, even with a proper stealth build.
I actually really liked the Human Revolution system. Having access to an unlimited ammo weapon in Takedowns of course I was going to use it as much as possible and hoard other ammo and resources. But due to the limit I found myself using stun gun ammo and batteries to supplement take-downs and enable me to take out multiple enemies in a short time.
So nice to see The Swindle get some love... I think it's a bit of a shame what they did to Payday 2. When the game was released, stealth was already pretty difficult and discouraged many players from attempting it. And a couple of updates later, they made it even harder by reducing the amount of pagers you can answer by one, but also adding respawning guards should you take out too many. Can't remember the exact figures and I don't know if they've changed it, but it still bums me out.
There is also a positive side to Quick Saves though! They encourage you to just go for something. For example in Shadow Tactics it allows you to go for ambitious moves. Without quick saves you would always have to play things safe and be cautious. Overlooking a patrol path would be a huge setback. That would cause players to observe the level for way longer and that would not be fun at all. So the hardcore stealth game in which being detected is practically game over could not exist. At least not with levels a long and intricate as Shadow Tactics has. You would need to make them way shorter. What I want to say is, that in my opinion Quick Saves are not necessarily as bad as you described. I would compare them to Checkpoints. Although limiting them in some fashion is certainly something to consider.
Edit: Typos
Most of stealth games are games of "mastery of repetition". Most of the characters and rules always behave in a specific way, but you can't understand how they works until you try them. Quicksaving can be useful for someone on his first playtrough to better understand how the game works in less time
This is a great reason to implement the limited rewinds, or even quick-saves, which you can also change the amount of to vary the difficulty: 0 for hardcore, 3 normal, 5 easy, etc.
IMO it would make sense to limit the top achievements to runs that didn't use a quickload. That way players can practice with saves but also get rewarded for not using them.
It works well in Shadow Tactics because they designed the puzzles around this, experimentation is kind of the name of the game.
But for a game like dishonored it kinda killed it for me. I couldn't help myself, yet it did not make things more fun at all.
"I would compare them to Checkpoints."
Well, why not just set a few checkpoints along the "long and intricate" levels?
I know in shadow tactics you can move anyone anywhere on the map so there almost never is a point where a checkpoint could/should be placed - but thats up to the leveldesign then ... I never finished the game btw. got stuck right after the night levels if I remember correctly.
This is why I love Heat Signature so much. Because the game is permadeath, it forces you to roll with the punches and change up your strategy in ways you would have never considered trying otherwise. Coupling that with the ability to pause the game for as long as you want to plan out your next move makes it one of my favorite games from the last couple of years.
Additionally, there's always the chance that a failed run can result in your last operative being *captured* instead of killed, so then you have a new character that's goal is to free your last character from a run gone sideways, which leads to some amazing emergent storytelling in that way and makes your mistakes feel like they're part of the world!
Ok, but heres what you have to 'plan' around 90% of the time:
1. they all have invincible shields and armor
2. the entire ship is covered in jammers
3. the mission ends in 15 seconds
The problem with Heat Signature is it's a stealth game that doesn't think it's a stealth game
@@YourFatherVEVO I usually never try armor/shield missions without acid traps/subverters, but I remember going into one by mistake one day. Armor protects you from a lot of things, but it doesn't protect you from the observation window right behind you being suddenly blown apart by gunfire.
Death always finds a way.
Great video!
For the narrative issue of putting you in the shoes of legends who never get spotted:
A first fix would be to avoid those stereotypes. Otherwise, having some interesting narrative consequences to being spotted would probably fix that. Like your boss commenting a mistake you've made, guards or other NPCs that later talks about how they met "the legend" in an encounter sometime... If the narrative changes, it's the player's action that writes who he is playing. And if the changes are not just negative, being spotted is a mistake that players would be considering keeping in their progression. Because those mistakes will contribute in making them feel like the game's environment reacts to their actions.
MGS V does this although in a less interesting way.
Nice, kind of like the nemesis system from Shadow of Mordor where enemies remember their encounters with you.
@@brandonmorel2658 do they? in what form? conversation between guards?
Oh, and JC? Stay out of the ladies' restroom.
In addition to what ProvencalG is saying: It would be important to establish this as part of the overall design early in the game. For instance: include a section in the first level (tutorial or not) that force you to be discovered, and then have the story reward the player for resolving that situation.
Also, it could be a good idea to limit the "never spotted" achievements to some kind of separate game-mode / difficulty level, so that the player can choose playstyle before starting the game
What I got from this video:
Untitled Goose Game is a Stealth Game
Effectively it is, just without failure states in the traditional sense. More of a series of setbacks.
It really is. It's a micro stealth game, with brighter aesthetics.
It most certainly is! There's a feel to it not to dissimilar from early Metal Gear.
quack quack 🦃
♀¨•♠ö║í±☻~ chirp chirp 🦍
Pointing out Arkham's approach to being spotted as something at least a bit interesting almost single-handedly helped me realize why the Arkham games are possibly the only stealth-adjacent titles I've ever really enjoyed. I don't want to save scum, but I'm a rookie at the genre and thus am... well, I'm not very good, yeah? Getting spotted and just straight-up losing is a frustrating staple that almost single-handedly killed my interest in Assassin's Creed in the later parts of Ezio's tale, wheras my experience with the original game was a lot of Altair standing atop piles of guard corpses while more and more of them just kept coming because that was honestly a more consistently successful approach for me than trying to run away from a mess I'd inevitably made.
Sneaking around can be tense and interesting, but I'm terrible at this so I'm gonna get caught, and *when* I get caught I want that to become its own situation to figure out. Goons on alert looking for Batman are harder to deal with, sure, but they're also typically more mobile, and while that raises the danger level it also offers up new solutions and tricks you can employ to take control of that situation. Sure, they know I'm around and getting shot is a lot more likely, but also the dinguses are more likely to walk right into the path of some explosive trap I've set up. Just gotta make sure you time that right, or their friends are gonna be real mad about it.
I guess what I'm saying is, messing up in Arkham doesn't make you feel any less like you're playing the role of Batman, it just recontextualizes how you're going about it. The way you take control of the situation back often still involves being a sneaky little beast, it's just that your appearance has, uh, *struck fear* into the enemies, yes, that's it, that's what you did. You didn't just misclick trying to get into a grate and instead leap into their line of fire. You're the Batman! You just made a spooky happen all up in they grills, on purpose, definitely, so now you get to work with that.
And that is understanding the core character and designing a gameplay accordingly. You are rewarded in every way, in every case. Perfection, in the matter of stealth games, is the arch nemesis of good game.
One way I imagine dealing with the with the whole expectation of being unseen throughout a whole level would be to teach and reward players for escaping like we do for successful stealth.
It sounds a little counterintuitive at first, but we reward a player for playing well (like when they're super stealthy), and if escaping is part of playing well, then it should be rewarded too.
The challenge with this approach is teaching players that it's okay to be seen in the first place. Many games have taught us all the contrary, because when we think of playing a stealth game well we tend to think only of being unseen; it's this mindset we need to change. One way we could teach the player is through set pieces of gameplay where the player will be seen and must escape, imagine a raiders of the lost ark style stealing the idol situation, but replace the traps being set off we get guards alerted to the players presence. That kind of situation shouldn't make the player feel like they've failed, like they would feel in other escape and evade parts of stealth games do, but instead help to show them how escape and evasion plays into a games mechanics.
I think that the most intuitive way to reward players for being spotted is to straight up move guards later in the level to the place where they are spotted. Hell, even encourage it by having a part in a first mission be "We need to break in to a building under heavy guard. Try intentionally revealing yourself somewhere else to pull guards away from it".
I like that in Shadow Tactics you can actually do this - if you need to break a guards patrol you can cause an alert through various different means, letting your group sneak through.
Yeah, when you mentioned the (Quick)-Load and why it might be abused to undo mistakes, "because the game punishes you for mistakes in one way or another, regardless of the final outcome" was *my* first response...
YESS
No cheevos, no branching storylines based on you getting caught, no guilt-tripping over killing guards, no scoring. Lock all that nonsense behind New Game+ or challenge modes - if anything, _reward_ players for getting caught from time to time. Let them get startled that they got caught, fight in a panic to try to buy enough time to escape, and then that time spent hiding in a locker won't be so boring when you're trying to drain off the adrenaline.
When I played the PS1 Metal Gear Solid as an 8 year old, I didn't find the silencer and I had no idea about the game ranking me at the end or anything changing at all for killing or not killing people. That dynamic was _fantastic._ Guards, from what I understood, were infinite - I couldn't just shoot them all. And I didn't know you could choke out guards, so there was no quiet way to remove a guard that's in the way. This forced me to not eliminate every guard silently like in more tedious modern stealth games, but to watch their patterns and quickly run from cover to cover, looking for openings and tensely hoping the guard will turn around before his buddy spots me. And when I did get caught, I'd use those loud guns to fight off the few guards in my way while I try to scramble for a hiding spot, knowing full well every shot fired will reset the timer and make my situation worse. It brilliantly fed that fight or flight response.
But when games encourage stealthy takedowns and discourage getting caught or killing people, it turns the experience sedate, boring, and rote. Stealth takedowns are rarely satisfying, they're often just routine, pressing a button on someone who won't do anything dynamic, and then it makes the level easier and easier. MGS 2 and 3 really fucked up by having dogtags, which just further incentivize holding up every... single... guard instead of quickly zig-zagging your way around their vision as intended or fighting back when spotted.
Unfortunately stealth games kind of sabotaged themselves with this. Games like Alien: Isolation and Amnesia: The Dark Descent get closer to getting it right by expecting you to get caught and not giving you an easy way to just make the patrolling "guard" go away. They much better manage that tension because they are also horror games and _need_ that tension, so they don't let you get away with never getting caught. Alien: Isolation still has problems with regards to humans, because again the game moralizes you shooting so you're encouraged to constantly reload to perfectly sneak past them all (and of course the cheevos...), but at least the encounters with the Alien are properly tense.
@@Helmic Absolutely yes. If the game is designed around a gameover screen for not playing perfectly then the saves are there as a crutch to deal with the quick and dirty game design.
Good games, and good roguelikes will have a persistent system that helps reward the player for whatever actions they took in the game, or have alternative ways to complete the level if they're caught.
But it's not an easy thing to figure out, not every game has that luxury.
Clicked out of curiosity, ended up watching the whole thing. Great video & very interesting analysis. I absolutely agree that quick saves destroy any tension in a stealth game. I wish more developers would come with more nuanced ways to address that issue.
I think there's a pretty easy solution: just have checkpoints. I know this doesn't work for every game, but I think just eliminating the option would be a quick and easy solution. This may make players not want to do anything risky though.
@@11th_defender51 After seeing too many poorly placed checkpoints, I just don't trust developers to do it right. And even a well placed checkpoint can get annoying if you just trigger it before you're ready for it. For example, you left some items behind to be picked up later. In a game where you save any time, you'd eventually pick those items, move close to your next objective, and save. In a game with checkpoints, you might accidentally trigger the closest-to-objective checkpoint before grabbing those items, so every time you fail and reload, you have to go all the way back again for the items before you can actually resume playing the part you failed.
IMO the early Hitman games did it best: you get a limited number of saves, which you are free to spend at any time of your choosing. Some levels might also award you new saves part way through. It's still not a perfect system (how do you space out your saves if you don't know the level ahead of time?), but choosing when to use the saves becomes part of your strategy and you never get into a situation where you scream at the game or its developer for a terrible checkpoint. Maybe a combination of automatic checkpoints and limited manual saves could work as well. You could also have "checkpoint areas", which are like checkpoints except that saving there is manual and you do it when you're ready for it instead of the game doing it for you whether you want it or not.
I remember Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow giving me a checkpoint that always resulted in mission failure three seconds after loading. And it didn't let you load a previous checkpoint.. all the way back to the start of the level.
@@henrikemppainen2511 I haven't played the hitman games so I don't know how good the system is but I think what you said about checkpoints and saves would probably work.
@@henrikemppainen2511 I think a good way to do it is to have limited manual saves, but includes specific points in play that signal a recommended spot to save at. Maybe some sort of symbol on the wall or something?
If you don't want manual saves then just never manual save and rely on the auto saves. Or use manual save only when you think it's fair
About the game switching to another genre when fighting, I love how the last Splinter Cell handle this, so you could somehow still use stealth skills during combat (notably by using your last known position to flank enemies).
When it's done well, fighting shouldn't feel disconnected from infiltration.
A bad example of this is Payday 2, where both gameplays are indeed completely separated, with purely stealth based perks and gears that become literally useless at the second the alarm is raised. Which is even worse since you have to make choices when building your loadout, like a suppressor making your weapon less effective. A first glance it might seems like a good risk/reward mechanic, but in practice it just encourages you to either go full stealth, or full strength, and just reset the mission if you get spotted in the first case.
Strong agree on the Payday 2 part. They completely botched it as soon as they added higher difficulties to the game. You still have a chance when you play on normal/hard/very hard, and it's amazing when you can pull that off. As soon as you go beyond those difficulty levels though, there is no point in even trying.
Pretty much, if your squad had full stealth gear you're boned after the alarm is raised, so it meant either one or two guys had to have power while the others snuck around. It kinda sucks that PD2 had the binary "spotted-not spotted" stealth system, could've made for more interesting coop games if it was a little more fleshed out
On the flipside, Q.save/load encourages experimentation, and the fact that you have one quicksave slot (manual loading is a chore) gives an anchor state but also means you need to deal with resources depleted and screw up you made up to that point.
It allows ( at leastme ) to deal with the puzzle aspect of these games in a fun way.
I still remember using quicksave when I have a sliver of health my last grande in both System Shock, to pull out a by the skin of teeth survival.
Honestly, I think it's a feature, not a bug.
It's a feature that needs to be balanced. Like how quickloading could easily be used to maintain those items
"Generous failure spectrum" is a great band name and description of my life tbh
I'm playing through MGS5 for the first time rn and I think it handles the save scumming thing pretty well.
You get a checkpoint before going into an enemy area, some of which are pretty big and require a decent amount of time to get through unnoticed. If you do you have the option to start all over at the cost of the time you spent taking out guards and picking up loot. Plus it keeps track of your restarts for mission ranking so it's not a "get out of jail free" card
Nah, checkpoints in MGS 5 sucked, at least for my playstyle, and they were badly placed. I was playing full ghost and several times it made me restart from the start a whole mission that I perfectly ghosted almost until the very end, ruining all my progression and by the way a huge amount of my playing time. This is in my opinion more frustrating than anything else.
Without talking about the fact that this system doesn't allow the player to test and try things because it can save anywhere without warning you, so as a player who want to make a perfect run you are not prompted to explore all gameplay possibilities because you're constantly worrying if the game will suddenly save and ruin all your progression.
I generally think that the less control you give to the player, the less fun and enjoyable the game becomes and the least variety of players it can satisfies.
I actually like the quicksaving in one situation: experimenting. I really love to try to do some stuff that i'm sure will not work, or just want to know if i can do this and that, you know, for science. For example i played trough Hitman 2 some days ago, and i remember how much stupid stuff i did. For example: seeing if you can approcah a sitation in different ways, trying to find a different path, but not wanting to be compramised, and choking another guard, to get a different outfit, if i get spotted. You may think this means it kills the fun, cus i'm gonna reload either way, but i still try to be stealthy, cus maybe i continue and do something i didnt plan, because i found a different way to assassinate someone, that sounds more interesting or badass. Something that isnt experimenting, is if you get spotted after you are done evesdropping, and fuck things up so bad, that you want to reload, but you dont want to hear the same dialogue again, you reload. But hey, this is just my opinion. And sorry if my english is horrible
@@doobzsalam1847 exactly
@@doobzsalam1847 I always die as a scout first!
I think Hitman's works if you're looking to do all of the types of kills. It's fun to try unique methods, not as fun to have to replay stuff over and over to get to those opportunities.
And depending on what difficulty setting you use saves can be limited. I was waiting for Mark to mention this. It's nice taking out one complex set of objectives for a target, saving, and then worrying about the next. I can rarely pull off both without the occasional reload.
Just last night I was playing Chaos Theory, and I got into this loop of trying this crazy thing of jumping into a window, booking it across a sleeping guy's room, and calling out to a guard on the other side of the door so he's come to the door, then bashing the door open in his face.
I'd never do that without quicksave.
I quite liked how Hitman: Blood Money (perhaps Hitman 1 and 2 did that also , can't remember) dealt with saves. Each difficulty level has a certain amount of save files allowed. If you don't want to play on the easiest mode available you have to deal with quick saves being a limited resource. You have to think exactly when to save and you can't abuse the system quite as easily. And on hardest mode you don;t have saves at all. It's a shame that new Hitman games mostly abandoned that and only unlockable "professional mode" has a feature of limiting your save files (at least the last time I've checked, which was a few months ago).
P.S - I really wish they would also bring back the reward system from Blood Money where you get certain amount of cash for each completed contract depending on how well you did (how many witnesses there were, how many wounds you suffered and even retrieving your original clothing is taken into final account). Then you can spend earned money (which also adds up throughout the whole game with each contract so you can save it for later if you wish to do so) on upgrades or (if you got spotted) to bribe witnesses to keep signs of your involvement out of the police/press reports. I think it was a perfect fit for the series. It fits into the game world and it didn't discourage risky tactics quite as much as the new games do.
From an accessibility perspective, save-games should never be limited.
It's the player's fault if they savescum despite it diminishing their fun. Don't blame a game for giving players an option.
@@zig131 Players are still human. And humans aren't bright.
"Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game."
That quote is thrown around a lot for a reason. Players may believe that they play the game for fun, but chances are, they play it to _win._ It's not their goal, but they can't help but use every tool at their disposal as if they are only there to win. They don't consciously realize that is what they're doing. After all, they begin at point A and have to get to point B.
@@zig131 Lower difficulty levels in Hitman provide endless saves. In contrast, in the new HITMAN games the story mode has built-in continuous endless saves by default.
@@Adam-cq2yo I think the answer to yours and Thomas's good points is that players can be at fault, AND developers can be at fault. They each have their own responsibilities. From the developer's perspective, you should try to make the best possible game you can that encourages and incentivizes the most fun playstyles, while preventing and disincentivizing playstyles that are less fun. You can't use bad player behavior as an excuse to not do this. From the player's perspective, it's on you to find a way to make the game as fun as possible for yourself, and if you can't be bothered to do that, don't blame the developer. (I also agree with Thomas that sometimes certain game features can be indispensable for the developer to include to make the best game possible, even if that will enable some players to use a less fun playstyle.)
Agent_Ash except in master mode where only one (manual) save is available
Stealth is one of my favorite genres of videogames. I'm so glad Mark took the time to do this series, and also sad that it is now over.
Aw, the series is over already? I was just beginning to love it!
same
we need more
Check out Stealth Docs if you like this. Really small channel but it breaks down stealth and the history of it very well.
Weird Wombat I think I will, thank you!
@@W3irdWombat Thanks for the recommendation! *vanishes in puff of smoke*
Mark: makes Video and finds a broad aspects where he could possibly include Spelunky 'cause it's loosely related to the topic
Everyone: Don't put it in
Mark: **puts it in**
Hey, at least Far Cry 2 is absent for once.
I've always thought quick saves were cheap and tension breaking, I'm glad there are people who agree. I much prefer the beginning of encounter checkpoints because redoing the entire section again is just as much as a penalty for getting caught as combat.
11:39 It's something that I've noticed cropping up in some Turn Based Strategy games as well. Fire Emblems 15 and 16 both had the ability to rewind time a number of turns so you could change your strategy if/when things went wrong without needing to resort to save scumming.
I really like the system that Kingdom come: deliverance has. It has certain potions which you have to consume in order to save, and these potions, are of course in limited supply. You can craft them yourself (after you've learned to read to know how to make the potions, gathered the herbs and found a alchemy station) or buy them from merchants (they have a high price). It does allow you to save at moments where you really dont want to lose progress but it also keeps you from save-scumming.
I wish this mini-series was longer.
I love stealth, both as a player and a developer.
I'm surprised he didn't mention the stealth sections of breath of the wild. For example getting the shock arrows from the lynel near Zora's domain.
What makes them so incredible is how real they are. You're not even told to play stealthily, you just run into an enemy that's so insanely powerful/scary that you as the player make the decision to avoid combat
I love this kind of organic approach. It feels so much more authentic and I hope more developers go in that direction.
I have a possible solution to the Quicksave Syndrome:
You start each mission with only one save that you can use at any time (sort of like Hitman's Master difficulty). Once you save, you can't save again for the rest of the mission-- unless you complete certain tasks within the level! For instance, in a game where you play as a thief, you can gain an extra save by stealing a certain amount of loot within the level.
This way, a player with a spare save will feel inclined to use that save to take risks (knowing they can get another one later), while a player with a save that's far way while also feel more inclined to take risks to ensure they don't have to redo the level all over again!
What do you guys think?
While it might work for some games I think it's not really one-size-fits-all solution. Missions in Dishonored 2 comprise several levels that you have to enter, traverse and then exfiltrate, each usually a massive, circuitous and highly vertical space. Even if I had an autosave upon entering an area plus one save of my choice, I think think it would hurt my experience more than it would help, since it would discourage me from doing what I love most in Dishonored - exploring, and taking in the breathing world Arcane create in each game.
There's also the issue that fear of losing a lot of progress may encourage the player to play the game extremely slow and safe. Quickloading frequently is a great way to break the flow of the game, but feeling the need to play the game too methodical and slow might actually be more detrimental my enjoyment. Quicksaves allow me to take risks that otherwise I wouldn't have.
Giving player one (or a limited number of saves for each level) might work if you design the level around that mechanic - which I guess would mean a rather constraint and limited space with very obvious and manageable guard routes. But even while I'm typing this, I can already feel my too-good-to-use-reflex itching.
Its amazing i can already think of games that can adopt this
Also some small studio have lot of room for advice developing, told them when you see fit
The game should be able to be completed, 100%, using as many saves as I want. If this is not a part of your game, I do not buy it. Stealth games are for me to unlock like a puzzle, not some action thing. Save restrictions do not increase difficulty, just increases resetting the level and decreases sales.
I am not going to have my plan butchered by glitches, bugs, level geometry that doesn't work, random bullshit like a guard turning around without it being my own fault, and the myriad of other bullshit that isn't my fault or part of the actual game design. The amount of times I have tried to assassinate, kill, knock-out, grab, take or any action and all of the sudden the game glitches out and I'm detected is way too fucking high for me to play games that restrict saves.
I think most players will just never use that one save, because 1) they don't know how big the levels are, 2) where the biggest and most difficult challenge of the level is.
9:25 That’s an interesting part, I always had the same thought on action characters that always have the upper hand in the narrative and when you play as them and fail, it doesn’t feel right, even if you win you feel like something’s wrong. I thought this couldn’t be fixed until I saw John Wick, in these movies he always gets beaten the shit out of him yet he also has the upper hand on his opponents, and that plus the fact that he can still fight while being injured makes him more badass than an untouchable hero in my opinion.
Do you know which game that is? Or looks very interesting.
@@nicholasolson2510 John Wick is a series of movies, not a game.
Please keep up the "School of" series! It's really cool to get more in depth looks at different genres of games, and I'd love to see your analysis on other types of games. Thanks for making these, they're always incredibly thought out and produced very well!
I mean, It sucks too when you've been doing a mission for one hour and a half an then everything is screwed up by just one mistake.
That's what the gradual failure states are for, but goes to show that it's not braindead to make
Great video! I completely agree that there's a conflict between the fantasy of being a master of stealth, and the reality of getting spotted by rookie guards within the first thirty seconds.
Maybe a solution (other than quick loading) would be to give the protagonist a "planning" mode. This lets you play the first minute or two of sneaking into an area, and if you're happy with how things are going, you can continue on, otherwise you can go back and try a different plan. This would essentially be like baking a quick load into the game's mechanics, but with the limitation that you might only be able to use this ability in certain safe areas, and you might get only 1 or 2 minutes of testing out a plan in an area that takes 5 minutes or longer to traverse, meaning you would have to commit to your plan, before knowing exactly how things will turn out.
Like checkpoints or saves getting blocked after a timer?
hell yeah sort of like the drone in siege
@@juancarmona9402 So I'm imagining a game like Metal Gear Solid. You start out in a fairly safe place, and Snake has the option to plan how he's going to approach the next area. This activates a screen effect like detective mode in batman so that you know it's happening.
You continue just playing as normal, but if Snake gets spotted or shot, you immediately pop back to your safe spot and Snake says "better not do that". If you make it to the 2-minute mark, a pop-up asks "do you want to commit to this plan, or go back and try something else?". If you choose to commit, the game continues, but you don't get any more do-overs. Otherwise, if you don't like how things have gone you can go back and try a different route.
Would work but restricted to a try or two for level, I think. Like a Simulation of the scene before you or a ghost kind of hability that let you see in front of you without being notice. A nice concept could be that the scene isn't always 100% accurate since you aren't seeing or playing the scene direcctly hahaha just thinking around that concept.
Kinda like doorkickers but in a stealth game. Planning phase, but then you can pause and change it at any time when the plan is being carried out.
I feel like The quick save functionality has added more fun into a game than a game not having it. I feel like I can play the way I want to and gives me so much more control over the game. I can always choose not to use it. If devs want to control how people play the games without taking away saves they could make players have only few saves per leve (like hitman games do).
"I can always choose not to use it" - that's something I dislike. I don't want it to be my responsibility as a player to resist a convenient feature that trivialises the experience. It's rather frustrating having a cake right in front of me and have to resist eating it, you know, before the birthday party has even started
@@kristianj.8798 And when they insist that it’s okay that you eat the cake because you don’t *have* to eat the cake.
@@kristianj.8798 I find it really weird that some people have to _resist_ a feature instead of naturally opting not to use it, knowing it will ruin their experience. I mean, if you know something is more convenient but less fun than the alternative, wouldn’t you instinctively choose the alternative anyway cuz having fun is why you are playing the game in the first place?
Edit: also about the cake analogy, it doesn’t really explain why you feel this way. Ofc it would feel frustrating if a cake is in front of you but you can’t eat it til the party starts, cuz you know the cake is delicious and will taste the same no matter when you eat it. But in this case it is different, the cake will taste like crap if you eat it.
@@Anna-kz7km I'd like to dismiss the silly cake analogy, I'm not sure anymore exactly what I meant at the time.
Anyway, I'll try to elaborate on my point without resorting to silly analogies or metaphors: I tend to prefer in games (with some exceptions) when I don't have to "hold back"; I prefer when a game is difficult to overcome or inconvenient in such a way that it requires me to give it "everything I've got". And it's annoying to me in the face of difficulty to have an immediately possible option that can trivialise the difficulty to a great extent, such as limitless manual saving gives me (allowing for seamless savescumming), because then I have to exert more mental effort to resist it, and this is distracting from the experience that I want to be having. It's natural for anyone to be tempted toward a solution that makes things easier or more convenient, since that's basically human nature (I think), even if it ultimately results in a less fulfilling experience. Or maybe this is more because of my autistic ADHD brain that I have a greater problem here than perhaps most people would have, I'm not sure. I just appreciate when a game imposes stronger restrictions on ways that could trivialise it, so that I don't have to spend energy on regulating my own behavior for the sake of a more satisfying experience
I really enjoy how the The Last of Us uses sound to show detection, as it keeps the whole experience more immersive and intense when you hear the sounds build up until you’re caught.
I actually love the concept of improvised stealth. One of my goals is to finish a stealth game without dying once. If I get caught, I must continue and cannot reload.
Great points here, making states non-binary is definitely a great way of making enemy AI feel much more human and organic. Also, you mentioning Untitled Goose Game got me thinking: stealth games are maybe even more guilty than games at large of leaning on tropes of warfare and general violence as mediums for implementing their mechanics, so what are some ways of making a [satisfying] stealth game where you're not a thief, hitman, or soldier? Maybe another one for the narrative guys, but something to think about...
Alien or mutant on the run?
like being a dude that is late for his job, and has to sneak past his boss and the staff ?
Every time you get spotted by your collegues, your paycheck will decrease, and if your boss sees you, you won't get paid.
The game is one month of work, and your score is your paycheck at its end
No violence, scoring, planning and the satisfaction when you manage to reach your desk unnoticed
And it could even be possible to add a time limit to force players to take risks, for example your boss will check your desk to see if you're here, you have to get to it before he notices you're not, and you could do things to delay your boss (like making a collegue call him, by messing with their computer)
How about one where you play as a kid who has to sneak around the rest of their family at night? Maybe different levels could have you playing multiple different kids, and the overarching narrative goal is that they all just want to go on some sort of late-night adventure together. Simple, cute, and relatable.
As a twist, maybe that late-night adventure goes awry and the final level is about sneaking away from more legitimate danger. Or at this point, things could be turned around with the sneaking-around-family segment being more of an introduction before shifting to something of a horror-stealth game.
sheep raider is a great cartoony stealth game, that deals with puzzles too. would love more games like that
SlimeWarrior that’s a great idea
I love how Mark says: "Can't wait to see what the future of stealth genre looks like" and shows failed stealth moment from Untilted Goose Game. 12:57
While your channel deals almost exclusively with video games and their internal mechanics, I've found a lot of useful information that I can translate decently well into the tabletop roleplaying games that I run. Your content is truly-and universally-inspiring.
Awesome miniseries Mark, thanks so much!
I remember that in one of the older hitman games there was a limited number of saves per mission. This could be a solution for preventing players to use saves every time they mess up.
It's in the new games too on Professional difficulty
Great video mark! Ive really enjoyed this series as stealth games are one of my top favorites game genres.
It seems like the principle of playing past your mistakes was so prevalent at the end when talking about save scumming. Its something that soured my experience just a bit when playing through the first dishonored but after deciding not to do that first time through on the second dishonored I had an experience on there that ill never forget. Keep up the good work, we'll always be here to support you and watch these amazing vids!
I think in custom difficulty in dishonored 2 you can turn off quick save and just have checkpoints or have the ability to save only once in the entire game
I personally love the Shadow Tactics method, where if they see you, it begins filling up, from A (Enemy) to B (You) and if it reaches all the way to you, you're seen. You can even get nitty gritty and say some enemies are super slow, like someone on a really hot day where you sabotaged the water supply, or you put a hat on, and it slows it down. They'd still notice you in an instant if you're directly in front of their face, but it'd take a while if you're across an entire courtyard. And similarly, faster detection enemies, but you the player can tangibly recognize that you got seen because they were more perceptive, they literally notice you *faster*, that growing detecting range of elite perceptive guard who is awake, would of course increase much faster than delirious man looking at disguise.
I loved this as a stealth fan, and definitely agree about the quick saves
I did not expect the "quick load" part of the video since I rarely use it. It always felt like cheating for me.
And for me it feels like a needed part of the game. The more freedom I have to take risks, the better I get at the stealth. I barely got through my playthrough of Dishonored 2 doing my best to stay undetected, without caring too much for chaos and the story. Quicksaving and quickloading before I experimented with powers and map design. Eventually I got good enough from using blink and getting away that I eventually did a Clean Hands run and felt GREAT.
I wouldn't be able to do that without F5
This was VERY interesting, Mark.
Thank you for breaking down one of my favourite game genres! 😁
Just found this channel about a month ago and I’ve already watched all your videos from the last year and suggested it to anyone who listens (except the videos that are largely about games I haven’t played yet) keep up the amazing work
you're a legend, I've always appreciated the thoughtful multilevelled approach to your analysis. This miniseries was very compelling to me :)
My favorite memory from Dishonored was when I foolishly signed my name on the guestbook at the party in the 4th mission. After signing I went outside for a while then snuck around the 2nd floor, staying away from the party itself. By the time I got back to the party the entire place was on lockdown, and I had overwritten my save from before I signed my name. Because I couldn't save scum my way out of the situation, I had to figure out how to overcome it. While this did involve a few more save-scums, it eventually resulted in me sleep darting two guards, blinking down to the center of the main room, knocking out and grabbing the target, then sprinting, jumping, and blinking just barely over one of those electrical fields, zapping my toes a bit and alerting the guards behind me, but they couldn't pass through the fence. It was awesome.
I don't understand why you consider singing Corvo's name as a foolish decision, the unique change is a note in Dunwall Tower later on
Signing your name doesn’t put the party on alert; it must’ve been something else you did.
Must've been the wind
I love the comment section on most of your videos... It's mostly people talking in a versatile sense about a gameplay-subject most of us know very well. And seeing, that many people appreciate a good, agrument-focused discussion about it, gives me hope, that future games will implement those thoughts more often.
Thanks to (all of) you :)
You may not see this but your videos make me enjoy video games more than I already do. I am genuinely thankful for your insight.
I get so happy when you upload. You have both quality and quantity. Thank you for making these bad times better.
edit: that was amazing I'm just sad you this ended. Hey have you done an RPG episode where you talk about how different genres and games took insparation from 1 (DnD being the first to come to mind)
When players save/reload every time after being spotted, then the game de-facto becomes “you die when you are spotted”, it’s just a really clunky way of doing it.
So embrace it! Just make the game, or allow it to be “die when spotted” but make the respawn really fast and not far away. There’s a space for the “super meat boy” of steath
Great work as always Mark! Your comment about narrative being a way to have less than perfect runs make sense in game definitely got me thinking. Can’t wait to see what you work on next.
Seeing a new video from Mark Brown has been my weekly highlight for the past 5 years at least
I hate when a game don't let you quick save!
I can't remember in which Splinter Cell they took it off, but I remember how I liked it way less than the previous ones : way too often, It was keeping myself to try very risky but entertaining moves and I ended up playing it safe because as I didn't knew for how long I would have to replay to come back from the last checkpoint if I failed.
Give a better Score at the end, or give harder difficulty level with no or fewer saves, but pretty please don't strip me down from the power of save-scumming!
For that, I would say the new Hitman hit the right spot, at least for me! : it let you muddle all the way you want at first in the main campaign, and if you feel up for more serious shit, you have the professional mode in which you've got only one go. The escalations don't let you save neither, so for a moment I've consider not even playing them, but after a try, I realize most if them are less than 5-10min long for one try and I end up enjoying most of them (and ignore the handful of them than require more than 15 minutes of set up for each try)
I feel like then quicksaving was just a crutch to unfun game design. The game should reward you for taking risks and making some mistakes with interesting outcomes, especially if that's the most fun way to play.
@@williammiles9926 well, the whole point of the video is that it's really tricky to make fails interesting in stealth games... I would even say that in "real stealth game" (where it's not a legitimate way to just go full Terminator through the level if you feel like it), it's meant to be a bit unfun when detected, or then why would you double check every conner to not be caught. but indeed, if you just quicksave before every corner, then you spoils a good part of the fun as there is no more trill at that if you have nothing to lose!
but once again, go ahead and give a good score or a dedicated difficulty level for the ones who seek that trill, BUT please let me save when this guy is about to walk under that chandelier, even if there are good chance that all the mess gonna got me killed!
I first played Splinter Cell on Xbox with checkpoints. I HATED it because it was too hard without being able to save wherever I want. It's only a miracle that I played the other splinter cells on PC and discovered that the only reason I hated it was really the lack of decent saves.
I feel like taking away ability to save while keeping binary failure and checkpoint system is basically trying to artificially amp up stakes by forcing player to replay certain fragments if they happen to fail. I don't mind not having ability to quicksave if the game is able to handle player failure gracefully and let them recover in one way or another, without being reduced to "Game over" and try that part again. Basically: if you don't want to let player retry certain fragment at will, don't let them retry it at all, design around possibility of player failing and let the game progress, while still keeping consequences of their actions. Being able to finish the game while barely avoiding "playthrough over" screen (or thinking that, consequences can as well be illusory) can be as entertaining as going for 100% flawless playthrough attempt - both can be fun in their own way as long as you plan for that from the start. Not letting the player save at will, but still letting them restart from a given point is just awkward and feels unnecessarily punishing for actions that - in perspective of the player - still let them try over as many times as they want.
"And without getting into the nerdy details..."
Why do you think we're here Mark?! 😊
This video put me on alert, knowing that high quality was in the area.
Thank you for this series Mark.
Please do more of these! They're incredibly interesting and educational. I, and I'm sure many others, would love to see both more of the stealth genre and other genres too!
What if there was a stealth game that had the same time rewinding mechanics as Braid? ie, you can rewind time an unlimited amount, but there are certain objects and enemies that ignore time being rewound. Not only would it circumvent the save/reload problem entirely (like when you brought up the limited time rewinding in other games), but the combination of both easily undoable and impossible to undo mistakes could make for many interesting moments of improvisation.
When you were talking about Quick-saves, I wish you had brought up Hitman! The higher difficulty mode limits the number of saves you can make in the mission. Although this sometimes means you have to start all over again, it does make it a LOT more tense. It adds the Saving/Loading as another consideration. Should I save now? Or should I push on a little further so I can save that progress?
I think your comment about "we should just remove them" is short-sighted. Some players will be adamant that it's how THEY want to play the game, and they aren't exactly wrong. You shouldn't just cut out a problematic game system, you should change it into something beneficial.
This is Awesome, I am on binge-watching your videos from last 3 days and I couldn't get enough of this, THANK YOU MARK
I think Game Maker's Toolkit's videos show how important experience and creativity is when making games
neither just knowing or figuring out what other games do doesn't guarantee making good games
nor is ignoring the knowledge of the past and repeating the same mistakes
Excellent video as usual Mark! In games like Days Gone, Spider-Man, and The Order 1886, they all have the instantly failing stealth missions. Do you think these games would be better with eliminating the stealth segments all together?
How did you comment in a day when this video was published today
@@zinzinzed235 *5 minutes 2 for you
he's magic
@@zinzinzed235 patreon viewer?
Not necessarily, as games need good pacing and players need a break from the same repetitive activities
Necrago of course but are these a good way to do it?
"The quick load key"
*Shows F7 not F9*
Me: "grrrrrr, that better be rebindable"
That's what I thought lol
I've never seen the F7 key used for either quick loading or saving. I must be getting old.
F7 is frequently used for quick loading. It always has been.
@@gilgamesh310 It always was F9, duh
I got used to the old Splinter Cell games: F5 for quick save and F8 for quick load, as they're the opposite extremes of the same block of function keys.
I'm so glad you made this mini series. I really enjoy your content as it gave me some insight on how certain systems in games are made.
I don’t know when I realized it, but GMTK has become my favorite channel on UA-cam
"If you put all of that together you get a pretty good detection system" - don't count on that. At least in terms of programming. Finite state machines can be side effect hells and it gets exponentially worse with more states and edge cases. So be careful, guys and gals.
MGSV kinda fix savescum method.
if you use [restart at the last checkpoint]. the game will count that as if you die and [continue] the game. so in result screen after mission you will have penalty to final score since the game will count scumming the checkpoint save as penalty in the same way as you die. so if you want good score/perfect stealth run. you need to do it in one go. restart the mission is the only option when you mess up.
But is the negative scoring bigger than the bonus of not getting spotted? Sure you won't get a perfect grade but it might still award you a higher score to just reload and do an otherwise perfect run
@@BiggBossChanel bigger. even if you dont get spotted, 'number of death' scoring penalty will guarantee to prevent you from getting rank S in mission. even just 1 death/scumming. and if you do it alot.......rank E.
This is just a compliment in general. Your videos are fantastic man. I can't tell you how many times I've written the same exact points (even with the same examples) about certain topics you've discussed but get downvoted to oblivion because I don't agree with current hivemind of the industry. You know where games have been, you see the current industry trends, and you know where games should go so we can get back to the golden age of having the generations next Uncharted, Halo, Splinter Cell, Mirror's Edge, Mass Effect, etc. Thank you again for not only telling a wide audience, but showing. Showing what works and how, and showing what can be done better. Keep up the great work brother.
The channel I looked for! Just binged you since hours.
one of my favorite all time games is the original Dishonored, I once beat the game using no left hand except the heart and killing the final target with Daud's sword.
When is the next design icons coming out
Soon :)
The reflection of a quicksave reminded me of an amazing mechanic in the Hitman 2: Silent assassin games, when there were a limited number of saves present at each level , (7 normal , 3 expert , 0 professional).The sheer cunning meticulous planning and execution of which areas are good for a save was amazingly nerve wrecking for my first play. and the ability of using previous levels with much difficult enemies and a more alert AI as the game progressed also in a way made the game familiar to me.
Love these Videos, thanks for making them...
this series was amazing. As a Metal gear solid V diehard fan i loved this. thank you mark
I remember that clip at 5:57 from the Rise of the Systemic Game video :P
How can you talk about Detection mechanics in stealth games without talking about Invisible Inc. ?!
... or talking about how essential *animation* is to giving feedback on what state the AI is in. In many games you can tell from the body language of NPCs what they are doing and thinking, don't even need the HUD.
I would like to thank you for the huge effort in this series and for adding Arabic subtitles as a kind of appreciation for your Arabic subscribers.
شكراً لك
I actually really like playing stealth games with the perfectionist mindset.
Having to ghost through the level pushes me to play at a much higher level than I would normally need to, using odd and creative methods and really learning the map. Trying to manipulate the guards or enemies into just the right positions, so as to leave a path for me. Getting through a whole section perfectly feels amazing, especially after all the failures that preceded it.
I think the game that did the best job at facilitating this was Styx: Master of Shadows, as the use of the clone allowed you to test things out and scope out the level without worrying about your real character getting seen.
Great video, I hope you keep this series up!
Your quick dismissal of Shadow Tactics' quick save/load system ignores the potential approach of stealth as puzzle, which seriously undermines that part of the video.
Styx: Shards of Darkness has something to avoid save scumming. It does this:
You are playing as a goblin, and at any point in the game, you are able to summon a clone, just like yourself, and control it.
And then the game has two abilities you can obtain:
a. To be resurrected from a clone if you ever get killed, so that you can create a clone, and leave it some place safe, while you go forward and risk you life.
b. You can send a clone forward to investigate, and then teleport and replace your clone when it reaches some place that you want to get to.
Now, the goblins are viewed as general pests, and the guards are not looking for you specifically. So once a goblin is dead, the guards go back to normal, because their job is done.
Also, your clone being detected does not count as you being detected in statistics.
And I find that these mechanics together encourage risk taking, instead of just save scumming. Why load when you can still try to run away, maybe leaving a clone behind for the guards to kill?
I really liked that system.
yeah I really abused those abilities when I got them. There was a time I had to infiltrate a bathhouse in order to grab something, (couldn't remember exact details) and as a plan I would create a clone, and hide it in a container right outside the bathhouse. Go in myself, grab the item, get spotted by everyone in the room, and teleport to the clone, far away from everyone. I didn't care about the challenges of not getting detected or killing anyone.
About the quick save/quick load I rarely use it, but let’s remember there is no wrong way to play a game. Thank you for this video, it’s amazing
I really love your point about unlocking "pro" or Ghost rewards/incentives only after you've naturally achieved them, and I think it's a philosophy that should be applied to more things, like difficulty. Dying and being asked if you want Easy mode feels bad, but doing well and being asked if you want more of a challenge would feel infinitely better.
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Great video!!!!! Well written, well voiced, well edited.
Your channel is really entertaining and informative.
Keep it up with the great work!!!!!
Thanks 😊
Your videos' quality ranhe from Best to Absolute Best
I wanted the detection part of any stealth game for so long and you did it.
An episode on multiplayer stealth game could be very interesting ! I'd watch it 11/10 !
Thoroughly enjoyable and done to a professional standard.
I particularly enjoyed some of the provided source videos for further study and have certainly learned more insight to a favorite genre of mine.
Brilliant series. I loved every minute of it! Thank you so much!!
Would love to see other "School of" series, awesome content as always.
Channels like these, GVMERS , Ahoy (whenever he uploads his masterpieces) have given me a new interest in the intricacies of game design, which I always thought I never had.
I'd like to see another miniseries like this. Maybe a "School of Strategy."
Two other examples of tools to help with the evasion portion:
_Homefront: The Revolution_ has safe spots in which the alerted, pursuit timer runs out faster. (The pretense is Brady is waiting there for hours rather than seconds)
The levels of _Thief: The Dark Project_ are made with numerous secret passages where guards cannot follow and will sometimes lead to separated zones. So Garret can sneak in the new area for a while.
Both of these elements, used together could help keep stealth interesting.
amazing series ❤️❤️
loved it so much! great job as always 👏🏻👏🏻💖👌🏻
currently working on a stealth game and this mini series are fresh water for me in the dessert, thanks 😊
Great Educator. A lot of teachers could learn a lot from your teaching style. Keep it up!