For me, Zendaya is a modern day Audrey Hepburn with the fashion and acting so I wasn't able to put into words that she equated to a movie star, but YES. I agree. Also, your comment about Netflix seemingly implementing the studio system with actors is fascinating but makes sense. Millie Bobby Brown would be another.
I'm also evangelising about Challengers. Wasn't expecting to be so blown away by it but it's one of the rare movies nowadays that is actually paced perfectly AND has, what I consider to be, a perfect ending. Like, one of the best endings since I saw Parasite four years ago.
@@DanLayton any movie that can take me from feeling a little disappointed during the second half to "oh holy *shit*" just with a couple of well-executed pay offs will have me frothing at the mouth forever. I think it also helped that it was a really good cinema going experience - first time in ages I saw a film at 11am!! On a Monday!
Zendaya is the hardest working, most focused film promoter I’ve ever witnessed. Yes, she has mind expanding polyglot talent oozing through every pore, but she’s worth millions for her promo tour work.
0:23 for other nostalgia junkies, a "fun thing" to do when rewatching old films and tv shows if you keep an eye on the extras and specifically extras being case as nurses, doctors, and other such positions and notice just how many POC are in those roles in early peek 90s and how it tampers off as we move closer to/into the '00s. You can actually watch those rolls become whiter as time passes. Its a good reminder that progress doesnt stay set. Things regress. Similarly with queer rep and a bunch of other things. Rep was growing. Things were getting better. Then things went back.
I definitely agree! I also think timothee chalamet is apart of the resurgence of the movie stars. besides him breaking john travolta’s box-office record with dune part two and wonka. studio’s know that timothee will put people’s butts in seats and he’s been successful in both genre’s of indie, mid movie and blockbusters.
challengers is such an engaging movie, i was fully glued to the screen. each actor gave an incredible performance, and zendaya was captivating as a 10/10 female manipulator. she is a star for sure
Saw Challengers tonight. Zendaya and Josh O'Connor's characters had fantastic chemistry. Some of the camera work was a little nauseating but I was hooked from start to finish.
I agree about Zendaya and Josh O’Connor having great chemistry. I’ve said that elsewhere on this platform. Josh O’Connor’s is my favourite performance in the film. But he and Zendaya just sizzled on screen together. I hope they work together more in the future.
I would argue that Margot Robbie is a movie star. She is a pull for audience members, she has had iconic roles ( harley quinn, wolf of Wall Street etc) she is also a household name which I think is really important.
I absolutely adored Challengers. Its not perfect but its spoke to me so much as a sport fan and a fan of style. The score was excellent the performances were excellent and I wanted to watch it again as soon as it finished.
Fascinating insights. I’d argue the Kennedys were American royalty up until the late 90s, not movie stars. However, movie stars did have their last hurrah in that same decade. I think the examples you gave of Gosling, Robbie, Stone, and Lawrence as being movie stars are accurate. I’d also include Blunt in it, even though she doesn’t get the press of being a movie star (but her box office says so). Zendaya might be the first Gen Z movie star. I’d also put Sweeney in the running if she has another mid budget hit film and also Timothee if he gets a hit out of a non-franchise film. They will obviously have it easier than Zendaya due to racism. It’s also fascinating to think about how in the 90s, a potential star would have to choose between cinema and television (which was seen as a lesser medium), while a television show gives Zendaya and Sweeney artistic cache that led to them starring in non-franchise films.
I love a video popping up from Dan, sometimes about a pop culture/media topic that I don't really get, watching, enjoying thoroughly, and then being sent back into the world with the same cheery outro music he's been using for years and years
I was just going to play this through in the background and hit like for the algorithm but I quite enjoyed your perspective on this I was born in 1999 so my experience of the 90s is... limited, and I'd never really considered the star/franchise thing you brought up. You're right, pretty much every film I've ever been excited for has been a *Director* film, or a *Franchise*/*Character* film. I want to say this is personally about how putting too much stock into one person is risky when you don't know them, but studios are made of people too. I am not immune to the parasocial relationship
great video! :) I totally agree with your ideas about her movie star status and am very excited for Zendayas future and I hope she can continue to maintain her privacy. I watched Challengers last night and peeersonally, didn't like it that much. The film was shot in a really exciting way and was accompanied by cool music. But even though I didn't know anything about the plot beforehand, it all seemed too obvious to me because there was so much foreshadowing and hints. Me and my friend felt veeery uncomfortable when the two friends eyed Zandaya's character in such an exaggerated male-gaze way. Also every character lacked interesting personality traits or wants (in my eyes), which I found very tiring. I didn't care for any of the characters too much, but I really hope the men found their friendship again at the end and that this might be the end of their 13 years long match over (and with) Zendaya's character. Buuut I have zero sporting ambition, unfortunately.... so maybe that's why I wasn't able to empathize that much :D
It’s so interesting to get your perspective! I think we read very different things from it. I think the “exaggerated male gaze” you saw for me was this sort of very characteristic mid-2000s teen swagger that Zendaya’s character just sees right through - hence why she’s laughing at the door when she visits them in the night and they’re scrambling, and why she leans back and watches as their base urges for each other, that they’re oblivious to, take over. I think she has an immense amount of power. I’d also argue that the male-gaze in the film is also turned on the men, not least the intensely spicy sauna scene between them. I would argue this is equal opportunity thirsting, but the conversation around audiences being able for that in cinema these days is a separate and fascinating one!! It felt to me like a film about three people who are drawn to each other throughout and competition and ambition but also who are objectively quite bad people, and honestly I don’t NEED to care for them to be intrigued by how they’re going to get in each others, and their own, way.
@@DanLayton yes yes yes to all of this! The young men *thinking* that they are just thirsting over zendaya and not confronting the tensionbetween themselves as well when in fact she is so much more mature and aware if fhe situation and how to manipulage and control it, which is then borne out through the years - she knows exactly how much power she has and how and when to use it, and they only even begin to get to the same level of understanding in the very final shot
My personal saddest part of the decline of the mid-budget movie is the lack of the 80s-00s style mid-budget movie star led rom coms. Also, I did see Challengers and personally found it incredibly frustrating. Raised interesting ideas and themes but left a lot of it on the table in a way I found unsatisfying. Also, the bit with the camera on the tennis ball made me feel motion sick 😂 Buuuuut I can't pretend Zendaya wasn't a large factor in me going to see it in the first place.
Interesting insight on the "death" of mid tier movies. An almost exact dynamic is happening in the gaming sphere. Xbox is focussing on filling out Game Pass Ultimate, their subscription service, with loads of indie and low budget games, while PS has always had their business model set on big, blockbuster releases.
Judging by the number of times I've been one of the first people here, you'd think I'm just poised by my phone for the next Daniel J Layton update, ready to pounce 😅
I think that the key actors to compare Zendaya's journey as a movie star to are Leonardo DiCaprio, Jennifer Lawrence, Robert Pattinson, and Kirsten Stewart. A low-key pivotal movie in how Hollywood went in the 21st century is The Beach. Leo's first big film post-Titanic (Celebrity and Iron Mask were filmed before Titanic came out). He chose to go with a hip choice in Danny Boyle but without a proven track record in mainstream cinema. The result was an at best middling success both critically and at the box office. I think this really spooked Leo, who was desperate for a career and not to be defined as a teen idol. So he attached himself to Martin Scorsese, respected at the time as essentially the Greatest Director in America, and Scorsese's artistic credibility combined with Leo's box office draw. Leo could have chosen to work with other Boyle-like hip directors like Spike Jonze or PT Anderson, but he stuck with directors with rock solid reputations, and usually at least a Best Director Oscar nomination (almost always a win) in their CV. Steven Spielberg, Edward Zwick, Ridley Scott, Sam Mendes, Christopher Nolan, Clint Eastwood, Quentin Tarantino, Baz Luhrman, Alejandro Innaritu, and Adam McKay. All proven successes on a large scale. Thanks to this, Leo is really in the position where Tom Hanks was throughout the 90s, as close as an actor came to being a guarantee of "quality". Pattinson and Stewart essentially went the other way post-Twilight. Partly because maybe neither of them wanted to be a full-time A-lister, also partly because, as you say, the role of the Movie Star didn't really exist anymore unless you were someone like Leo. They've worked almost entirely with hip directors who have either worked almost entirely in the indie/foreign world (Cronenberg, Assayas) or with one or two low-budget credits to their name that appeared in many a critics' end of year lists. Pattinson and Stewart in the era of franchises couldn't guarantee the big budget that DiCaprio could back in the 00s, but they could guarantee a big enough budget that these exciting new voices get a chance to expand their vision as far as an indie/A24 level movie could go budget-wise. David Michod, David Cronenberg, Kelly Reichardt, Werner Herzog, Anton Corbjin, James Grey, the Safdie Brothers, Robert Eggers, Claire Denis, Pablo Larraín, etc. They make sure to dip back into the big budget machine (Batman, Charlie's Angels) every once in a while to try to keep their box office stock high enough to continue to fund these filmmakers. Daniel Radcliffe also fits this career trajectory. J-Law has really crafted the path of the movie star in the era of franchises that Pattinson and Stewart weren't able (or didn't want to) forge, where she had multiple franchises going (Hunger Games and X-Men) and spent her capital to follow a Leo-like path of signing herself up with proven directors. Partnering with David O. Russell, who seemed to have the magic touch with the Oscar voters, and taking risks on screenplays with interesting concepts that maybe failed in execution (Passengers, Serena) J-Law essentially spent 2012 to 2017 with a one-for-you, one-for-me, mentality. A franchise and a high-profile Oscar bait movie. I think a combination of these strategies are what Zendaya's going to do for the next few years, until either the franchises are done, or she wins the Best Actress Oscar. She'll work in a larger-budget world like Leo and J-Law, but she'll work with more interesting directors like Pattinson/Stewart. Luca Guadagnino is a director with a strong repuation, but the film Challengers itself harkens back to that mid-budget Hollywood era. A love triangle between two men and one woman, set in the world of tennis, sounds exactly like the sort of film Jeff Bridges, William Hurt, and Susan Sarandon would have made around 1981. What Guadagnino would bring is a more artsy style, and the budget is low enough, and Zendaya has enough power as a producer (another attribute women in Hollywood have taken up in recent years like Reese Witherspoon and Margot Robbie), that the execs hopefully won't interfere too much, like they would for one of the tentpole blockbusters. My guess is throughout the rest of the 2020s, Zendaya does a one-for-you, one-for-me release pattern. She'll do her Marvel and Dune duties (and maybe one more franchise when one or both of those franchises end) and the rest of her time will be making mid-budget films with maybe more dangerous subject matter than we've been used to for the last twenty years, with directors along the lines of Guiellermo del Toro, Yorgos Lanthimos, Greta Gerwig, Todd Haynes, etc. Like you said, this could be an exciting time. The Rock is even working with a Safdie brother now, for goodness sake!
and also, i gotta say, i think this preconceived notion of zendaya is what makes her a star. i’m 23 now, when i was 11 i had a poster of her on my wall because she was on disney channel. i grew up with her and the way the world perceives her (as a tween, then as a teenager, than as a young adult making smart career decisions, then as an adult who is extremely successful in their field) is a little how i would like the world to perceive me? like, this is going to sound EXTREMELY parasocial, but it feels like a childhood friend who became successful and i’m proud of them. like, that person who i’ve known for a decade is not only someone i know but also someone who chooses amazing and culture-defining projects? sign me up, her name is enough to bring me to the theater (or to the front of the screen every sunday night with euphoria). same reason why i was so proud when miley won her emmy. i watched every single episode of hannah montana as they came out. same reason why i’m so proud of taylor swift’s success since 2020. i used to listen to fearless on my pink ipod nano and no one would let me control the music at parties and family gatherings because everything i listened to was “too girly”. same reason why watching only murders in the building with my mom is so fun. i grew up with selena on disney channel. she grew up with steve martin and martin short’s movies. it’s a bonding experience because their dynamic can somewhat resemble ours. i think that gen z specifically has a personal connection to people like them because we’ve grown up with them. since gen z is pretty much the one controlling the cultural narrative right now, it becomes known worldwide.
"what is economics and stocks if not vibes?" - I need that on a t-shirt 😄😄 Also, I have would love for you to do a full deep-dive (series) on how the film industry has changed over the past few decades. I literally had not noticed the decline of movie stars and their pull until this video but it's so obvious now What I really miss about mid-budget movies is how normal people in them seemed. Sure, they were fun and interesting characters but they seemed like people you could meet on the street. The styling of Sandra Bullock in While You Were Sleeping or Meg Ryan in You've Got Mail is still a whole vibe because they walked around in baggy jumpers with undone hair, fully being themselves. A guy like Tom Hanks would never be a rom-com lead today, he's simply not pretty enough. And I'm so sick of pretty, over-styled actors 🙈
I absolutely see your point about the new wave of movie stars. To me, Zendaya, Anya Taylor-Joy, Timothee Chalamet and Florence Pugh are people I would go to watch films for, simply because they are in them. Anyone else feel like this?
DAN!!! I fully came into this video being like pfft I planning to see that movie for Mike Faist and Mike Faist only, and if I was gunna pick a movie star from this generation it would not be Zendaya - but literally the more you spoke, the more excited I got - because I can’t tell you how many times me and my housemate have had this EXACT discussion about the death of mid budget movies, and the fact that there’s no real movie stars anymore, and all the reasons why. I was nodding along to everything and I was getting ready to comment about how I thought it was because of social media as well - and then you hit that point too and I fistbumped the air. I think about this SO much. And it’s not even like there aren’t actors who don’t have that star power around, because to me at least Florence Pugh would be a prime candidate for it, but it’s almost as if they’ve forgotten how the marketing works? Like her and Austin Butler doing half the Dune press tour with great chemistry doing interviews together, and then that photo came out that people went a bit insane over, and from that point on they were separated in interviews, on red carpets, etc and I just don’t understand why? They had free marketing, they didn’t need to say anything or address anything because nothing happened, they didn’t even need to change what they were already doing. ALSO! Don’t Worry Darlings is a fascinating example of people doing to see a film not because of the film but because of the people in it, but for all the wrong reasons. The drama surrounding that film slightly had a throwback to the movie star era because it was like ‘come see the film which caused Florence and Olivia to have beef with each other’. This is where it gets slightly more iffy because I’m not sure I’d want the more insidious nature of journalism from that era back, but it’s definitely true that the mystery element comes into play - people wanted to see for themselves and speculate on what might have happened and figure out if they could pick up on anything. It was like this decade’s version of Mr and Mrs Smith. Also the fact that some people look at follow counts as part of casting is so backward in my opinion because it has nothing to do with acting and you completely shatter that star power element! I follow so many actors on Instagram and just scroll past because I just don’t care, meanwhile I’ve been googling Nate Mann religiously looking for any updates on what he might be cast in next - would I be doing this if he had a twitter account? No. THE ILLUSION AND THE MYSTERY IS VITAL! I’m gunna stop before this turns into even more of an essay but this was so fun to watch you hit TARGET audience fr. Also I can’t wait to see challengers.
OH PS (I'm so sorry) The photo refs and the fact that you pointed out that the headlines HAVE been marketing Zendaya more like this did actually sway me a lot from my initial standpoint! I *might* have been persuaded. Jury is out until I've seen the film.
What happened between Florence Pugh and Austin Butler? Oh my gosh, such a good shout! Don't Worry Darling absolutely had that Mr. and Mrs. Smith effect.
I agree with a lot of what you cover in this video Dan. My question is do you think movie stars are good for us as a culture? I personally think i prefer this current era of "movie stars" where I know much more about them. It reminds me that they are human and not special which in turn reminds me I dont need to be special to be valuable. If you do think the older version of movie star is valuable to our culture I would love to hear why!
I generally subscribe to the notion that “We should know less about each other”! I totally see what you’re saying, but from my perspective the quantifiers “special” and “valuable” have no meaning. I come at it from a place of art and culture and venerating contribution to those things. Does that mean I don’t think some of my teachers were incredibly special? Or my grandparents? And why should that interfere with how special people are individually? I think special is in the eye of the beholder! And actually what’s “special” about these people is their ability to distill and communicate the human experience through their work, which really opens up those perameters of “special” to anyone who helps you learn about yourself and others. I’ll have a sit with that thought over coffee, because it’s a really interesting one, but my working theory is that anything that gives us a sense of collective cultural experience is so necessary for community, and I think there’s a space for movie stars that doesn’t undercut our own self worth, because that’s ours to define.
@DanLayton thanks for taking the time to respond! I agree, communal experiences are very important for our culture. It is also really interesting to hear your opinion on the matter as someone who has some first-hand experience with the other side of "celebrity" from me. It can probably be incredibly exhausting to have the world constantly wanting to know every little thing about one's self.
I really liked that choice for her!! She’s an interesting one, because she’s spoken about how her previous management have guided her in a direction she didn’t necessarily want to go in, so I’d be intrigued to see what she does from here
My personal "movie stars": Jake Gyllenhall, Mads Mikkelsen, Michael Fassbender, Saoirse Ronan and Emma Stone. I watch every single one of their movies solely because they're in them. Which ones are yours, Dan?
Yes, 100% rebirth I think. Like since Barbie Ryan Gosling is in a new action romcom?? I am genuinely not quite sure of the genre and I really want to see it, because I never knew Ryan Gosling was funny, it is to do with him (and also that we’ve been lacking Romcoms) I also think this could be potentially the result of the death of the UA-cam vlogger (glad to see you’re still around and making an effort to come back, thoroughly enjoying it) but now my generation has lost the Dan and Phils of the world we need something to fill that void potentially? Not sure- bc don’t get me wrong, movie stars and UA-cam vloggers have a very different energy due to the whole, what u do and don’t know. I think the distinction is somewhat, I want to be them vs I want to be friends with them. Idk. But hooray for movie stars, I need more Leo Dicaprios and Matt Damons in the world- As a child of the early 2000s, I can confirm the 90s were better.
Also I believe it has something to do with how nowadays we form parasocial relationships with smaller creators like yourself as opposed to big movie stars
I actually referenced him a bit and cut it out cause I didn’t think it was a fully formed thought!! There’s something interesting about him too, in this same regard, but his foray into the Kardashian world lately is going to be fascinating to see, and I think there’s something about movie stars that plays to gender norms in a way that Timmy, a soft boy, doesn’t align with…and yet he’s so beguiling, that maybe he’ll continue to break through it! As he goes!
Was it an incredible decade in the 90s or were we children with no awareness of adult responsibilities and all we had to worry about was Pokemon cards oh dear I’m spiralling #millenial
"The stock market is astrology for finance bros” too real, I’m cackling 🤣
Tell me when I’m telling lies…
Well if it ain't real, it ain't right!
For me, Zendaya is a modern day Audrey Hepburn with the fashion and acting so I wasn't able to put into words that she equated to a movie star, but YES. I agree. Also, your comment about Netflix seemingly implementing the studio system with actors is fascinating but makes sense. Millie Bobby Brown would be another.
I'm also evangelising about Challengers. Wasn't expecting to be so blown away by it but it's one of the rare movies nowadays that is actually paced perfectly AND has, what I consider to be, a perfect ending. Like, one of the best endings since I saw Parasite four years ago.
The ending was the only part I was disappointed by 😅
Ohhhhh I found the ending infuriating and brilliant!!
@@DanLayton any movie that can take me from feeling a little disappointed during the second half to "oh holy *shit*" just with a couple of well-executed pay offs will have me frothing at the mouth forever. I think it also helped that it was a really good cinema going experience - first time in ages I saw a film at 11am!! On a Monday!
Zendaya is the hardest working, most focused film promoter I’ve ever witnessed. Yes, she has mind expanding polyglot talent oozing through every pore, but she’s worth millions for her promo tour work.
0:23 for other nostalgia junkies, a "fun thing" to do when rewatching old films and tv shows if you keep an eye on the extras and specifically extras being case as nurses, doctors, and other such positions and notice just how many POC are in those roles in early peek 90s and how it tampers off as we move closer to/into the '00s. You can actually watch those rolls become whiter as time passes. Its a good reminder that progress doesnt stay set. Things regress. Similarly with queer rep and a bunch of other things. Rep was growing. Things were getting better. Then things went back.
I definitely agree! I also think timothee chalamet is apart of the resurgence of the movie stars. besides him breaking john travolta’s box-office record with dune part two and wonka. studio’s know that timothee will put people’s butts in seats and he’s been successful in both genre’s of indie, mid movie and blockbusters.
challengers is such an engaging movie, i was fully glued to the screen. each actor gave an incredible performance, and zendaya was captivating as a 10/10 female manipulator. she is a star for sure
Saw Challengers tonight. Zendaya and Josh O'Connor's characters had fantastic chemistry. Some of the camera work was a little nauseating but I was hooked from start to finish.
I agree about Zendaya and Josh O’Connor having great chemistry. I’ve said that elsewhere on this platform. Josh O’Connor’s is my favourite performance in the film. But he and Zendaya just sizzled on screen together. I hope they work together more in the future.
I would argue that Margot Robbie is a movie star. She is a pull for audience members, she has had iconic roles ( harley quinn, wolf of Wall Street etc) she is also a household name which I think is really important.
I wouldn't see a movie just because Margot is in it, but I do keep an eye on what she's doing as I think she picks interesting roles.
Agreed.
I absolutely adored Challengers. Its not perfect but its spoke to me so much as a sport fan and a fan of style. The score was excellent the performances were excellent and I wanted to watch it again as soon as it finished.
Fascinating insights. I’d argue the Kennedys were American royalty up until the late 90s, not movie stars. However, movie stars did have their last hurrah in that same decade. I think the examples you gave of Gosling, Robbie, Stone, and Lawrence as being movie stars are accurate. I’d also include Blunt in it, even though she doesn’t get the press of being a movie star (but her box office says so). Zendaya might be the first Gen Z movie star. I’d also put Sweeney in the running if she has another mid budget hit film and also Timothee if he gets a hit out of a non-franchise film. They will obviously have it easier than Zendaya due to racism. It’s also fascinating to think about how in the 90s, a potential star would have to choose between cinema and television (which was seen as a lesser medium), while a television show gives Zendaya and Sweeney artistic cache that led to them starring in non-franchise films.
Dan, I love how you make me want to see movies. Hopefully going to see this at the weekend!
I love a video popping up from Dan, sometimes about a pop culture/media topic that I don't really get, watching, enjoying thoroughly, and then being sent back into the world with the same cheery outro music he's been using for years and years
I did think recently about letting the music go…but maybe that would be sacrilege.
oh my god PLEASE do a deep dive video about art your perspective of him would blow my brains out
I was just going to play this through in the background and hit like for the algorithm but I quite enjoyed your perspective on this
I was born in 1999 so my experience of the 90s is... limited, and I'd never really considered the star/franchise thing you brought up. You're right, pretty much every film I've ever been excited for has been a *Director* film, or a *Franchise*/*Character* film.
I want to say this is personally about how putting too much stock into one person is risky when you don't know them, but studios are made of people too. I am not immune to the parasocial relationship
Yes. Very good, Dan. You are so right.
Someone has finally articulated my thoughts on this. It has also been on my mind for a while now. Right on the money.
great video! :) I totally agree with your ideas about her movie star status and am very excited for Zendayas future and I hope she can continue to maintain her privacy.
I watched Challengers last night and peeersonally, didn't like it that much. The film was shot in a really exciting way and was accompanied by cool music. But even though I didn't know anything about the plot beforehand, it all seemed too obvious to me because there was so much foreshadowing and hints.
Me and my friend felt veeery uncomfortable when the two friends eyed Zandaya's character in such an exaggerated male-gaze way.
Also every character lacked interesting personality traits or wants (in my eyes), which I found very tiring. I didn't care for any of the characters too much, but I really hope the men found their friendship again at the end and that this might be the end of their 13 years long match over (and with) Zendaya's character.
Buuut I have zero sporting ambition, unfortunately.... so maybe that's why I wasn't able to empathize that much :D
It’s so interesting to get your perspective! I think we read very different things from it. I think the “exaggerated male gaze” you saw for me was this sort of very characteristic mid-2000s teen swagger that Zendaya’s character just sees right through - hence why she’s laughing at the door when she visits them in the night and they’re scrambling, and why she leans back and watches as their base urges for each other, that they’re oblivious to, take over. I think she has an immense amount of power. I’d also argue that the male-gaze in the film is also turned on the men, not least the intensely spicy sauna scene between them. I would argue this is equal opportunity thirsting, but the conversation around audiences being able for that in cinema these days is a separate and fascinating one!!
It felt to me like a film about three people who are drawn to each other throughout and competition and ambition but also who are objectively quite bad people, and honestly I don’t NEED to care for them to be intrigued by how they’re going to get in each others, and their own, way.
@@DanLayton yes yes yes to all of this! The young men *thinking* that they are just thirsting over zendaya and not confronting the tensionbetween themselves as well when in fact she is so much more mature and aware if fhe situation and how to manipulage and control it, which is then borne out through the years - she knows exactly how much power she has and how and when to use it, and they only even begin to get to the same level of understanding in the very final shot
@@DanLayton You write things that I haven't considered before! Thank you for your answer and your explanations. I'll think about this some more :)
My personal saddest part of the decline of the mid-budget movie is the lack of the 80s-00s style mid-budget movie star led rom coms.
Also, I did see Challengers and personally found it incredibly frustrating. Raised interesting ideas and themes but left a lot of it on the table in a way I found unsatisfying. Also, the bit with the camera on the tennis ball made me feel motion sick 😂 Buuuuut I can't pretend Zendaya wasn't a large factor in me going to see it in the first place.
“Astrology for Finance Bro’s” 😂 Nailed it! 💪
Interesting insight on the "death" of mid tier movies. An almost exact dynamic is happening in the gaming sphere. Xbox is focussing on filling out Game Pass Ultimate, their subscription service, with loads of indie and low budget games, while PS has always had their business model set on big, blockbuster releases.
Judging by the number of times I've been one of the first people here, you'd think I'm just poised by my phone for the next Daniel J Layton update, ready to pounce 😅
I appreciate the energy, it’s what we need in these trying times 🙏🏻
@@DanLayton - my enthusiasm has to go somewhere!
Really enjoyed this viewpoint and found myself instantly agreeing with the video title - EXCELLENT BRAIN THOUGHTS DAN
I think that the key actors to compare Zendaya's journey as a movie star to are Leonardo DiCaprio, Jennifer Lawrence, Robert Pattinson, and Kirsten Stewart.
A low-key pivotal movie in how Hollywood went in the 21st century is The Beach. Leo's first big film post-Titanic (Celebrity and Iron Mask were filmed before Titanic came out). He chose to go with a hip choice in Danny Boyle but without a proven track record in mainstream cinema. The result was an at best middling success both critically and at the box office. I think this really spooked Leo, who was desperate for a career and not to be defined as a teen idol.
So he attached himself to Martin Scorsese, respected at the time as essentially the Greatest Director in America, and Scorsese's artistic credibility combined with Leo's box office draw. Leo could have chosen to work with other Boyle-like hip directors like Spike Jonze or PT Anderson, but he stuck with directors with rock solid reputations, and usually at least a Best Director Oscar nomination (almost always a win) in their CV.
Steven Spielberg, Edward Zwick, Ridley Scott, Sam Mendes, Christopher Nolan, Clint Eastwood, Quentin Tarantino, Baz Luhrman, Alejandro Innaritu, and Adam McKay. All proven successes on a large scale. Thanks to this, Leo is really in the position where Tom Hanks was throughout the 90s, as close as an actor came to being a guarantee of "quality".
Pattinson and Stewart essentially went the other way post-Twilight. Partly because maybe neither of them wanted to be a full-time A-lister, also partly because, as you say, the role of the Movie Star didn't really exist anymore unless you were someone like Leo. They've worked almost entirely with hip directors who have either worked almost entirely in the indie/foreign world (Cronenberg, Assayas) or with one or two low-budget credits to their name that appeared in many a critics' end of year lists.
Pattinson and Stewart in the era of franchises couldn't guarantee the big budget that DiCaprio could back in the 00s, but they could guarantee a big enough budget that these exciting new voices get a chance to expand their vision as far as an indie/A24 level movie could go budget-wise.
David Michod, David Cronenberg, Kelly Reichardt, Werner Herzog, Anton Corbjin, James Grey, the Safdie Brothers, Robert Eggers, Claire Denis, Pablo Larraín, etc.
They make sure to dip back into the big budget machine (Batman, Charlie's Angels) every once in a while to try to keep their box office stock high enough to continue to fund these filmmakers. Daniel Radcliffe also fits this career trajectory.
J-Law has really crafted the path of the movie star in the era of franchises that Pattinson and Stewart weren't able (or didn't want to) forge, where she had multiple franchises going (Hunger Games and X-Men) and spent her capital to follow a Leo-like path of signing herself up with proven directors. Partnering with David O. Russell, who seemed to have the magic touch with the Oscar voters, and taking risks on screenplays with interesting concepts that maybe failed in execution (Passengers, Serena)
J-Law essentially spent 2012 to 2017 with a one-for-you, one-for-me, mentality. A franchise and a high-profile Oscar bait movie.
I think a combination of these strategies are what Zendaya's going to do for the next few years, until either the franchises are done, or she wins the Best Actress Oscar. She'll work in a larger-budget world like Leo and J-Law, but she'll work with more interesting directors like Pattinson/Stewart.
Luca Guadagnino is a director with a strong repuation, but the film Challengers itself harkens back to that mid-budget Hollywood era. A love triangle between two men and one woman, set in the world of tennis, sounds exactly like the sort of film Jeff Bridges, William Hurt, and Susan Sarandon would have made around 1981. What Guadagnino would bring is a more artsy style, and the budget is low enough, and Zendaya has enough power as a producer (another attribute women in Hollywood have taken up in recent years like Reese Witherspoon and Margot Robbie), that the execs hopefully won't interfere too much, like they would for one of the tentpole blockbusters.
My guess is throughout the rest of the 2020s, Zendaya does a one-for-you, one-for-me release pattern. She'll do her Marvel and Dune duties (and maybe one more franchise when one or both of those franchises end) and the rest of her time will be making mid-budget films with maybe more dangerous subject matter than we've been used to for the last twenty years, with directors along the lines of Guiellermo del Toro, Yorgos Lanthimos, Greta Gerwig, Todd Haynes, etc.
Like you said, this could be an exciting time. The Rock is even working with a Safdie brother now, for goodness sake!
and also, i gotta say, i think this preconceived notion of zendaya is what makes her a star. i’m 23 now, when i was 11 i had a poster of her on my wall because she was on disney channel. i grew up with her and the way the world perceives her (as a tween, then as a teenager, than as a young adult making smart career decisions, then as an adult who is extremely successful in their field) is a little how i would like the world to perceive me? like, this is going to sound EXTREMELY parasocial, but it feels like a childhood friend who became successful and i’m proud of them. like, that person who i’ve known for a decade is not only someone i know but also someone who chooses amazing and culture-defining projects? sign me up, her name is enough to bring me to the theater (or to the front of the screen every sunday night with euphoria).
same reason why i was so proud when miley won her emmy. i watched every single episode of hannah montana as they came out.
same reason why i’m so proud of taylor swift’s success since 2020. i used to listen to fearless on my pink ipod nano and no one would let me control the music at parties and family gatherings because everything i listened to was “too girly”.
same reason why watching only murders in the building with my mom is so fun. i grew up with selena on disney channel. she grew up with steve martin and martin short’s movies. it’s a bonding experience because their dynamic can somewhat resemble ours.
i think that gen z specifically has a personal connection to people like them because we’ve grown up with them. since gen z is pretty much the one controlling the cultural narrative right now, it becomes known worldwide.
"what is economics and stocks if not vibes?" - I need that on a t-shirt 😄😄
Also, I have would love for you to do a full deep-dive (series) on how the film industry has changed over the past few decades. I literally had not noticed the decline of movie stars and their pull until this video but it's so obvious now
What I really miss about mid-budget movies is how normal people in them seemed. Sure, they were fun and interesting characters but they seemed like people you could meet on the street. The styling of Sandra Bullock in While You Were Sleeping or Meg Ryan in You've Got Mail is still a whole vibe because they walked around in baggy jumpers with undone hair, fully being themselves. A guy like Tom Hanks would never be a rom-com lead today, he's simply not pretty enough. And I'm so sick of pretty, over-styled actors 🙈
I loved the movie so much. I think she did great❤ she's truly just getting started ❤❤
These videos remind me that others have the same style of thinking as me and its so satisfying
My brain needed this intellectual insight post-sweaty mess of Challengers, thank you!
Dan doesn’t miss!
Dan do you have a letterboxd please you're a delight to listen to
I absolutely see your point about the new wave of movie stars. To me, Zendaya, Anya Taylor-Joy, Timothee Chalamet and Florence Pugh are people I would go to watch films for, simply because they are in them. Anyone else feel like this?
"Love, Hate & Tennis Rackets".
DAN!!! I fully came into this video being like pfft I planning to see that movie for Mike Faist and Mike Faist only, and if I was gunna pick a movie star from this generation it would not be Zendaya - but literally the more you spoke, the more excited I got - because I can’t tell you how many times me and my housemate have had this EXACT discussion about the death of mid budget movies, and the fact that there’s no real movie stars anymore, and all the reasons why. I was nodding along to everything and I was getting ready to comment about how I thought it was because of social media as well - and then you hit that point too and I fistbumped the air. I think about this SO much. And it’s not even like there aren’t actors who don’t have that star power around, because to me at least Florence Pugh would be a prime candidate for it, but it’s almost as if they’ve forgotten how the marketing works?
Like her and Austin Butler doing half the Dune press tour with great chemistry doing interviews together, and then that photo came out that people went a bit insane over, and from that point on they were separated in interviews, on red carpets, etc and I just don’t understand why? They had free marketing, they didn’t need to say anything or address anything because nothing happened, they didn’t even need to change what they were already doing.
ALSO! Don’t Worry Darlings is a fascinating example of people doing to see a film not because of the film but because of the people in it, but for all the wrong reasons. The drama surrounding that film slightly had a throwback to the movie star era because it was like ‘come see the film which caused Florence and Olivia to have beef with each other’. This is where it gets slightly more iffy because I’m not sure I’d want the more insidious nature of journalism from that era back, but it’s definitely true that the mystery element comes into play - people wanted to see for themselves and speculate on what might have happened and figure out if they could pick up on anything. It was like this decade’s version of Mr and Mrs Smith.
Also the fact that some people look at follow counts as part of casting is so backward in my opinion because it has nothing to do with acting and you completely shatter that star power element! I follow so many actors on Instagram and just scroll past because I just don’t care, meanwhile I’ve been googling Nate Mann religiously looking for any updates on what he might be cast in next - would I be doing this if he had a twitter account? No. THE ILLUSION AND THE MYSTERY IS VITAL!
I’m gunna stop before this turns into even more of an essay but this was so fun to watch you hit TARGET audience fr. Also I can’t wait to see challengers.
OH PS (I'm so sorry) The photo refs and the fact that you pointed out that the headlines HAVE been marketing Zendaya more like this did actually sway me a lot from my initial standpoint! I *might* have been persuaded. Jury is out until I've seen the film.
What happened between Florence Pugh and Austin Butler?
Oh my gosh, such a good shout! Don't Worry Darling absolutely had that Mr. and Mrs. Smith effect.
I agree with a lot of what you cover in this video Dan. My question is do you think movie stars are good for us as a culture? I personally think i prefer this current era of "movie stars" where I know much more about them. It reminds me that they are human and not special which in turn reminds me I dont need to be special to be valuable. If you do think the older version of movie star is valuable to our culture I would love to hear why!
I generally subscribe to the notion that “We should know less about each other”! I totally see what you’re saying, but from my perspective the quantifiers “special” and “valuable” have no meaning. I come at it from a place of art and culture and venerating contribution to those things. Does that mean I don’t think some of my teachers were incredibly special? Or my grandparents? And why should that interfere with how special people are individually? I think special is in the eye of the beholder! And actually what’s “special” about these people is their ability to distill and communicate the human experience through their work, which really opens up those perameters of “special” to anyone who helps you learn about yourself and others.
I’ll have a sit with that thought over coffee, because it’s a really interesting one, but my working theory is that anything that gives us a sense of collective cultural experience is so necessary for community, and I think there’s a space for movie stars that doesn’t undercut our own self worth, because that’s ours to define.
@DanLayton thanks for taking the time to respond! I agree, communal experiences are very important for our culture. It is also really interesting to hear your opinion on the matter as someone who has some first-hand experience with the other side of "celebrity" from me. It can probably be incredibly exhausting to have the world constantly wanting to know every little thing about one's self.
I saw no hard feelings just bc Jennifer Lawrence was in it and I was very happy about it. And it was mid budget
I really liked that choice for her!! She’s an interesting one, because she’s spoken about how her previous management have guided her in a direction she didn’t necessarily want to go in, so I’d be intrigued to see what she does from here
My personal "movie stars": Jake Gyllenhall, Mads Mikkelsen, Michael Fassbender, Saoirse Ronan and Emma Stone. I watch every single one of their movies solely because they're in them. Which ones are yours, Dan?
fr i like to say i’m going to ‘the zendaya movie’ or ‘the rachel zegler movie’
Yes, 100% rebirth I think. Like since Barbie Ryan Gosling is in a new action romcom?? I am genuinely not quite sure of the genre and I really want to see it, because I never knew Ryan Gosling was funny, it is to do with him (and also that we’ve been lacking Romcoms)
I also think this could be potentially the result of the death of the UA-cam vlogger (glad to see you’re still around and making an effort to come back, thoroughly enjoying it) but now my generation has lost the Dan and Phils of the world we need something to fill that void potentially? Not sure- bc don’t get me wrong, movie stars and UA-cam vloggers have a very different energy due to the whole, what u do and don’t know. I think the distinction is somewhat, I want to be them vs I want to be friends with them. Idk. But hooray for movie stars, I need more Leo Dicaprios and Matt Damons in the world- As a child of the early 2000s, I can confirm the 90s were better.
Question: Florence Pugh?
doesnt everyone see a movie because their tumblr mutual reblogged a gif set of it ?
Also I believe it has something to do with how nowadays we form parasocial relationships with smaller creators like yourself as opposed to big movie stars
Calling the stock market astrology for finance bros might be the truest thing you’ve ever said
Zendaya is Meechee
She absolutely is 🙏🏻
What about Timbothy Charlemagne?
I actually referenced him a bit and cut it out cause I didn’t think it was a fully formed thought!! There’s something interesting about him too, in this same regard, but his foray into the Kardashian world lately is going to be fascinating to see, and I think there’s something about movie stars that plays to gender norms in a way that Timmy, a soft boy, doesn’t align with…and yet he’s so beguiling, that maybe he’ll continue to break through it! As he goes!
@@DanLayton Really good points especially the part about gender roles. I didn’t even think about that, thank you for replying Professor
I watch Emma stone movies for Emma stone
Nobody went to go see Marvels BECAUSE Brie Larson was in it 😂
Was it an incredible decade in the 90s or were we children with no awareness of adult responsibilities and all we had to worry about was Pokemon cards oh dear I’m spiralling #millenial
That’s certainly a part of it!! But there are also objective metrics we can look at that definitely put the 90s in bold!!
I was too proud of myself for having already seen the Leena video XD
You must be Zendaya’s a big fan.😂