Here's Why HEATHERS Became a Cult Classic. Twice.
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- Опубліковано 6 жов 2024
- With Heathers: The Musical closing, I just wanted to ramble a little bit about why the show and the movie are beloved by their audiences, thirty years apart...
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Thank you so much for watching - let me know any thoughts please!!
get that bag dan 💵💵🐐
babe wake up new dan layton video just dropped
Me going to comment the same thing 😅
I feel like (part of) the reason people tend to dress as the heathers when doing cosplays for the musical is because the heathers outfits already FEEL like costumes - martha, being so authentic, is wearing clothes you might see a real person wear (albeit exaggerated for the campy aesthetic), while the heathers clothes are perfectly suited to wear as costumes because they kind of already are being worn as costumes in the show - almost the same way you'd dress as the phantom and not raoul if you were cosplaying phantom of the opera, why dress as a real person when you could wear a mask and cape and instantly step into that big overblown persona?
And also, a lot of young women and girls go in their friendship groups to see Heathers, so it makes perfect sense that they would choose a group cosplay!
The difference that stood out to me the most was JD's characterization. It is so obvious that the movie is pre Columbine shooting and the musical is post. In the movie JD is an angry bad boy who is a loner by choice, in the musical he is a loner before he's an angry bad boy. I think it would have been nearly impossible to make a campy musical about stereotypes without making JD the trenchcoat wearing, violent caricature of the columbine shooters
when we went to see heather's in its first run at the other palace in 2018 my friend dressed up as martha - she was the only one we saw in the whole crowd! we just about managed to spot jenny o'leary rushing out of stage door and she was so thrilled to see someone cosplaying her that she stopped for a photo 💜
I'm a musical theatre academic so this video spoke to my soul! Fun fact: did you know that the writer of the Heathers movie (Daniel Waters) is the brother of the director of the Mean Girls movie (Mark Waters)?
I did know that fact!! When I learned it my trivia brain was euphoric
Genuinely been looking forward to this since… yesterday. Also, I am a huge Heathers fan, both film and musical. It’s a weird one, though, because it’s such a huge phenomenon, and the fandom has become quite… Heathers-like, to say the least. But it’s the fans who keep the show going. Such a double-edged sword.
Fandom in general - not specific to Heathers or even musicals in general - is such an interesting beast. It becomes an evangelical celebration that lurches into defensiveness and protection of the thing, which ends up making the thing inaccessible. Definitely something I find fascinating!
I love the way that you discuss both versions without criticising either version. Allows a certain objectiveness to be shown for it. Would love to see you do that with many adaptive plays or musicals!!
I have so many opinions on The Producers so just you wait
I feel like the fact that people don't cosplay as Martha isn't significant or a reflection on the character, just that the Heathers have a fun/sexy costume that you can do in a group with your friends.
Something else I find interesting is how the musical has strayed further from the film as it's picked up popularity. Lines from the movie that had survived into the musical were replaced later on in its uk run and overall from the US to UK run the tone was brightened.
This is so true! I’m an off-Broadway recording listener, so hearing the changes when I went to see it first back in 2018 was so jarring. It isn’t a happy musical, to me, so why all the more ‘controversial’ lines were removed, I do not know. Why am I seeing Heathers Junior on the West End.
@@cicelyamelia oh I dont mean to be negative about the changes, overall I prefer the west end version though I agree some changes are a bit janky
More musical content… perhaps reference to audience interaction. Rocky Horror with pumpkin spice latte season coming around? Loved the video ❤
From a completely objective angle, I think less people cosplay as Martha because she simply has less iconic outfits. I can see in my mind what she wears, but if you google heathers outfit, it's always going to be easier to find the colourful skirt and blazer as it's so specific to the show and so instantly recognisable. Interestingly though, most of the people I've talked to don't like Martha's song because it's slow and 'boring', even though it's more than arguably the most meaningful in the the whole musical and a clear turning point in the story. Maybe that in itself is a microcosm - the fact that they all choose the flashy, catchy numbers over the slower, raw ones. Even Lifeboat is preferred despite also being slow, because, again, it's dramatic - just like the Heathers themselves. They get a spotlight, they get the attention even if it's performative and undeserved.
I love it when daniel over thinks and makes a fabulous video out of it
It's so great
Without knowing anything about the movie or play, you have laid it out to someone like me why both this movie and the play itself in their own rights draw their own big audience.
i love this content era !! i need more !! you put so much thought / effort / research into these videos and then make it so easily digestible and entertaining, big fan
THANK YOU CHUM
(I enjoy both. Winona Ryder and Christian Slater, be still my beating heart.) I deeply agree with you, Daniel J.
My only unique addition would to pose the perspective as someone who was in high school when the Off Broadway cast version of Heathers ran originally, the fandom environment was QUITE different than the CHF West End era, onto now. You can absolutely feel the Gen Z influence on the continuous rewrites, and for it to be based on Gen X media originally presented for Mid-Young Millennials who had lived through 9/11, the conservative homophobic 2000s, and the Great Recession, and had very little hope going into adulthood. Comparing and contrasting 2008 with 1988, is how I saw it. That is why the rewrites over the last few years have started to seem a bit disingenuous the as time marches on.
It's also somehow compelling to think about it in that way as a piece of media, I also was into RENT and that was a piece of media that was not changed from the original vision because the creator passed during previews, and it truly works as a period piece. Whereas Heathers the Musical in its current state definitely could be set in 2018 with VERY few tweaks. Who knows, RENT was not a perfect piece of art (theater rarely is) and with changes after critique and feedback it might've been even better! But, the point being, comparatively, Heathers feels a bit bastardised knowing how it started.
Excuse me being a little tipsy while writing this as you've uploaded it at the prime time for my current hyperfixation of Heathers after seeing it on tour LOL but you absolutely nailed everything on the head here.
Side point as an addition to one of the first points you made - one of the first lines of the musical is "life can be beautiful" - one of the LAST lines, not only set to the tune of Beautiful is "we'll make it beautiful," which even as a 20 year old who grew up with the off-broadway Heathers was always SUCH a hopeful message to 13 year old Bry. Despite everything that had happened, we CAN make things beautiful. We CAN change things, and we CAN make a difference.
Additionally, I think the cosplay point you made is very much true, but from a cosplay perspective it's more that the Heathers are recognisable above everything else, even Veronica herself as the main character. When you go to a convention in a cosplay, your main plan is to be *recognised*, so you don't have to constantly explain to everyone who you are. If you cosplay as Martha, yes the fans will largely understand who you are, but she is very much a plainer character than the Heathers. She wears her own comfortable clothes and is her own person in her actions and lines and songs more than her costume, and I think that's why people prefer to dress up as the Heathers. They wear such prominent colours and outfits, the blazer and skirt and socks are so recognisable that even if you've just seen the cover art for the cast recording, you know who they are! You see those colours and like 7 times out of 10, you'll recognise them.
Loved this Dan! 👏 We only saw Heathers this year too but I think there’s something to be said about how it feels to actually see the show - The Other Palace is small and wherever you sit you get a good seat. The fans are so loyal that you can FEEL the energy radiating off the audience without any of them interrupting the show, which doesn’t always happen in musical theatre these days! I love the cosplay, and the fact they sell scrunchies and have the audience throw loads on stage at the end. Oh, and the soundtrack is a banger!! ❤
The marketing on that production was absolutely GENIUS, honestly!!
this type of video is extremely my jam. and I am on such a wavelength with you about adaptations and mediums and whatnot. I love this yes please more lol
Ok side note but my fave part of the video with you and carrie is at the end 'well i think that's worked' 'well that's that then' and you take a biggest mouthful of pie. It just gets me.
Just going to say absolutely yes I would love you to do a deep dive series on musicals
The stumble over the word authenticity *chefs kiss*
As someone from a non-English speaking country, I was aware of the Heathers fandom way before I actually looked into the musical and didn't really get it. Loved your analysis of/theories on the differences between generations!
I absolutely agree with the bit about teendom. My sister is 2 1/1 years younger than me and those very relevant pieces of media from our teen years are very different (while childhood media largely overlaps).
Deep dive away! Marvelous to hear your riffs.
In one of my film classes in university we had to write a paper on a film that we thought should be included in the National Film Registry's list of culturally significant movies to be preserved by the Library of Congress, and I wrote about Heathers. Loved this video and would love to see more!
Excellent choice for that assignment!!
Great video Dan (as always). Heathers the musical became big when i was in high school, and I think I cling to it because of the way it fleshed out all the high school stereotypes (aka “why do i act like such a creep”, Heather’s song about her eating disorder & feeling overwhelmed), the movie was fun but the musical made me a more empathetic teen to my peers and for that reason I’ll always love it (plus the most fun songs!)
Please do a deep dive it would be so good
SIR. Who gave you license to be so very insightful? Speaking as a member of the GenX, I did not come into this video expecting to be SEEN so nakedly through the lens of generational psychology! I mean, whatever, not that I care or anything, but you're not supposed to see right through us like that! Harrumph!
Anyway, incisive and illuminating commentary. Absolutely love it. More deep dives would be welcome indeed. And while you're at it, please feel free to make them longer so you have room to let those tangents breathe!
very much enjoyed the video Dan! I'm a huge heathers fan and I'm so gutted that I haven't had the chance to see it live before it closed, since I'm not from the UK. I actually saw the film before I listened to the musical, and I was surprised at how different the two are in terms of the mood that they convey. I was glad that the characters got more depth and also I think it's interesting how the US and UK version are different as well. For example giving Heather Duke her own song and with that adding more depth to her as well.
also in that sense changing a song like blue to you’re welcome
Dan, I could listen to you talk about this for hours!! After loving the film, I saw heathers for the first time last week on the uk tour and I couldn’t believe how much I not only loved Martha, but also adored her song. There really isn’t much talk about that character and you’re right, she’s pivotal! I love the musical and the film because behind everything, they are both honest. They are both showing that when you’re a teen, everything feels like the biggest thing in the world and they both have the same humour. I think great messaging can reach any generation and heathers will continue to for years to come.
Yeah as someone who knows very little about either, everything I know pretty much comes from cultural osmosis and I didn't even know there was a character called Martha, people definitely don't talk about her
20:39 20:39
I feel like the differences between the off-broadway production and the uk production are really significant too - the show has definitely got less dark and gritty as it’s moved away from the original off-broadway version, which was probably closer to the film in tone (I haven’t seen the film but this is the impression I get). The way the show has been moulded over the years is so interesting to me, especially as some of the changes were quite harshly criticised within the fandom when the show first opened in the uk, and now the uk production has become the definitive version as it’s found a new audience and collection of fans
I LOVE these kind of videos. This is a very deep and meticulous reflection, a very much needed comparison. I love both the film and the movies but I never stopped and thought about them, the adaptation, the thin but important difference in the message both want to deliver. Thank you so much Daniel xx
I could listen to you talk about stuff like this for hours tbh I think adaptations of any story from one medium to another is just sooooo interesting and I love hearing your thoughts about anything movies
I adored this video! So insightful and as one of life’s Martha’s I loved hearing her character being discussed.
I’m loving hearing your opinions on musicals and definitely think you should do more of this. I especially love the comparison to their movie counterparts.
❤❤❤
I've written a essay comment elsewhere about this, but the character that I really enjoyed particularly the West end production of was JD. I will say it has been a hot minute since i watched the movie, But in that he seemed like just an angry, agressive dude, that I found really difficult to understand why Veronica was really interested in him at all.
I think you make a really good point about the generational elements- cultural norms and expectations play a massive part in the charactersiations of JD in different versions.
But as a genZ/ millenial, I felt the emphasis on JD's backstory and his childhood trauma make him so much more of a relatable character and made the story that much more compelling. Even comparing the West End to the Off Broadway portrails is wildly different for JD and I think Jamie Mascato did such a beautiful job
this has finally helped me understand why i don't really love the musical. i want something from it (a nihilistic satire) that it just isn't. it's just too sincere and like you said, hopeful.
I adore your critiques because you are honest and thoughtful at the same time
Bit late to the party here, but I would *love* a series on the best musicals! That's right up my alley
I haven't seen either but now I feel like I need to watch both. What a great video!
I could listen to your deep dives for hours! I've loved both the movie and the musical, and I think the adaptation was masterfully done. They changed just enough to make it more "modern" and appeal to a new generation, but it also seemed to stay true to at least some of the original messaging (if a little twisted for, again, the sake of the audience). I would love to hear your thoughts on that failed TV adaptation though.
Yes please! More deep dives. Love your takes. So very!
MORE MUSICALS!
I thoroughly enjoyed this video, would absolutely LOVE to see more videos on Heathers or any other musical to be honest!
please do more videos like this, and even deeper dives. i love hearing your opinions, thought process, conclusion, its so interesting!
I love these video essays Dan!
100% agree with everything in this vid!! I was deep into my teen musical theatre phase right at the time as the classic Heathers bootleg was doing the rounds. While I also loved the movie, I really resonated with the way that the musical plays explores the facade that is high school stereotypes.
Right around the time that I was deep in it, I went on a school trip overseas and shared a hotel room with one of the mean girls in my class-- except turned out that when she wasn't in the school environment, she was actually really lovely. The jet-lag induced conversations that we had at 3am felt like if Lifeboat was a chat between a couple of very tired and very earnest 16 year olds.
I also really love your take on Martha! She's always been my favourite character :')
LOVED this video Dan!! I would love to hear more fun deep-dives like this about other musicals and movies that you’re passionate about. I loved Heathers (the musical) So much when I was a freshman in high school, and as someone who’s Gen Z and who’s mom is Gen X, it was really interesting noticing the differences in how I felt about both versions when my mom showed me the movie! I’ll glad you talked about that, your assessment of the situation makes a lot of sense to me :))
dan, i love this video so much and it's about to restart my love of the Heathers universe
this is so interesting I only just saw heathers the musical as well and then immediately the movie and it's so true that they're based around different views of just darkness and hope. they very much reflect the times they were made but also both stand up well especially because of where they link together with Martha
i would argue that the musical is really holding up to a mirror to the audience who have seen both adaptations in a big way, it gives us a commentary on a rather dark and bleak point in society which is still as relevant now as it was when the movie came out. its saying to an audience "this is still happening. why?" That to me feels like the reason for the lighter tone, it's less "more hopeful lighthearted adaptation" more plea to do better. Now i'll admit that may be me overthinking it but
I’m so sad it’s closing. I was obsessed with Carrie’s vlogs while she was in Heathers and it was HIGH on my list of shows to see while I was in London earlier this year. But I ran out of days to see it. And now I don’t know if I ever will. 😢
Saw the movie a couple years back and have yet to watch the musical... Going to rewatch the movie on the weekend and have just bought the musical on Amazon haha
I'd also be interested to hear your thoughts on the transition from the off broadway musical to the west end musical. Lots of changes there that are really divisive within the heathers musical fandom
I would love to hear your thoughts on the TV series! I absolutely loved it!
Part 2 make it a series please 🙏 ❤
When I answered on Insta, I think I was quite dismissive - but once again, I love where you have gone with this analysis Dan. I think you've reflected my position very well - Heathers is MY movie. I'm firmly GenX and what you said about the different generational lenses is intuitively very satisfying to me. I'm in the Winona4Ever camp, for sure - and has there ever been a better Jack Nicholson impression captured on film? But the darkness and the nihilism is the absolute point of Heathers, to me. There's a couple of scenes that represent the movie in my head, but the clearest one is early on - when JD stands in the cafeteria and points the gun. It's a summary of the lack of point, the lack of rules, the necessary rejection of limits. I hated the musical because it seems, to me, to change the tone so fundamentally that it has become a totally different beast. And I guess that makes it THEIR musical not mine. That's a depressing thought - I'm not a huge proponent of generational limits on art. But this one's an exception, maybe. So - get off my lawn, I guess?
Loved your smart and funny ramblings, as always.
You are absolutely right but it was the end of Reagan’s presidency - reaganomics feature pretty highly in the film. Love this video, it’s very reminiscent of my own dissertation 🥰
*Dan, managing to deliver one of the most focused, to the point videos on this platform*: Sorry about this rambly mess of a video.
Movie: fantastic!
Stage show: fan-bloody-tastic!
Music: phenomenal!
Tv show: gonna pretend it didn't happen.
I want a deep dive!!
Hey Dan want to put u onto a classic rendition of Sherlock Holmes. Portrayed by Basil Rathbone, his movies which you can all find on UA-cam made in the 1940s is the best depiction of Sherlock Holmes ever made, with each mystery being intricately woven in with twists and turns. A couple of the stories like the Hounds of Baskerville is precictable, but the rest you’ll have yourself saying “how back then were they able to come out with such good movies as this” The Voice of Terror, Pursuit to Algiers, or Sherlock Holmes Goes To Washington are my favorites. Just thought i’d put u onto something that is well done and is suprisingly timeless in 2023.
Always a pleasure when Dan puts out a video. Also Sweeney Todd is DEFINITELY still camp.
I actually disagree!! I think the meaning of “camp” has been somewhat diluted, but if we stick to the original style and intent of “camp”, I really don’t think Sweeney falls under that category! I think there’s dark humour and exaggeration within, but the entire time there’s this sinister undertone that supersedes anything that could veer towards camp.
@@DanLayton I think because of the extremely heightened reality that musical theatre exists in and the need for exaggeration to make the medium work, from an outside perspective I definitely would call Sweeney camp. However, within the realm of musical theatre I'd agree that the sinister nature of the story and the much bleaker tone it achieves definitely disqualifies it.
Also, more of you on PFK/NRB please x
Teendomvis definitely a more niche generation. I was talking to a friend who’s only 5/6 years older than me about songs and the ones I associate with yr 6 discos and early high school, she remembers from her first days clubbing. It’s a whole thing for sure
love👏it👏
It's a hard yes for a musicals series. My vote is in.
I saw the musical (again) this week and we had a Martha cosplay in attendance. Far more gender-swapped JD’s and the usual Heather’s and Veronica’s, but there was that authentic Martha too
loved this video! i was obsessed with heathers in like 2018 and now its become this weird thing where i avoid it cause it made me emotional back then? :D
Could you also argue that Heather's has been a cult classic thrice due to the success of "Mean Girls" that was an adaptation of "Heathers"?
I think calling it an “adaptation” of Heathers is a stretching the meaning of that word. It was certainly inspired by it - as I say in the video, there is no Mean Girls without Heathers - but it’s not an adaptation.
Like the Scottish play!
Shoutout to Beetlejuice the musical!
I have seen ocassional people with pink scrunchies or a sweater as a nod to martha. But i would also say I think her song is a little undermined in places by making jokes about her being almost "too" innocent to fully empathise with. Like I still see what she is as a character and yes the is the only truly authentic character in the show, but i took a friend to see it who had seen neither the movie nor the musical and they found martha to be underwhelming as a redeeming character because of how she's portrayed, especially in her own song. The lines about the scab probably being the best example.
I think when I listen to Heather's, the first half of no skip, the second half is some-skips
Dan, have you seen Pretty Woman the musical? One of the BEST screen to stage adaptation I've seen. I'd love to know your thoughts on it!
The teacher is Pauline Fleming - her name's Paulineeeee, she lives alone, her husband left, her kids are grown
I haven't watched the film since before I saw the musical in 2018 (twice in one week with Carrie it was truly incredible), but I remember the first time I watched it (also, I believe, in 2018) and just ... hated it? It made me so angry and I felt like JD was just a righteous white boy who threw a tantrum cause his life was hard. It was difficult for me to get past that factor when I watched the film. The way Veronica's journey in the musical reflects that of a pointedly unpopular girl desperate for the torment to stop who realizes that popularity isn't all it's made out to be. Her arc feels more realistic and relatable compared to in the film. I don't know, the musical just feels more real and accessible than the movie does to me. Also, I'm a millennial but yeah I really love the sense of hopefulness the characters have in the musical. It feels more current, I guess?