1) The Sidewinder's locking lugs aren't "retracted" on launch. There's a spring inside that needs a certain amount of force to be overcome to force them to retract or "break", sort of like some of the mechanisms rifles use to delay their bolt unlocking when the gun is fired. High G maneuvering can cause the 'Winder to creep off the lug sometimes and an arrested landing may complete the issue and will allow the missile to fly off the rail. And, other times, on arrest, the missile's seeker head, and maybe also the fuse section and maybe the warhead will all come off leaving the rest, including maybe just the motor where the locking lugs are located, would stay on the rail. On flight deck debrief I asked a pilot how the systems were on landing, he said the radar was good but he didn't have any tone on the Sidewinder. I looked over and there was only a rocket motor was still on the rail. I pointed over to the rail, he laughed and shrugged. 2) Sparrow: The Sparrow's ejector feet do move really fast, milliseconds. There was also circuitry that would inhibit the motor fire signal if the timing of the ejection carts was incorrect. The forward foot had to come down a few milliseconds before the aft one to ensure the missile wasn't nose up when the motor fired, that would be bad... The interlock on the centerline station loaded condition was because if there were a centerline tank on board when a forward Sparrow fired, the aft fins on the missile would cut the tank open when it ejected. That would be bad. There were similar interlocks that inhibited a Sidewinder launch if the speed brakes were out. If the missile fired with a speed brake open, it would burn the crap out of the speed brake. The READY light on the MCP came on on a particular station when the missile was powered up and tuned. The missile had to tune its receiver to match the frequency of the jet's radar transmitter (plus a simulated doppler shift to account for the closing range to the target) That signal is set to the missile by way of antennas on the bottom of the aircraft. If you look at the nose area of each Sparrow station there's a fiberglass cover for an antenna. There's also a fiberglass cover behind each rear well and one between the aft ends of the to forward wells. These send a signal to the missile to tune its receiver. There's one at the nose and tail because the way a Sparrow works is it compares the signal it gets in it's nose antenna from the reflected radar energy off the target to the direct radar energy it gets from the launching aircraft's radar in its tail antenna. It calculated its lead by that comparison. There's a bunch of other signals that the aircraft sends to the missile to set it up for launch. Since the missile is carried in a "+" configuration with one fin straight up and it flies in an "x" configuration, the radar's computer had to tell it which way to roll upon launch. The missiles are all also in their own orientation, a little nose down and toed in in the front stations, the aft ones were pretty much straight ahead. The missile also needs to be told where to look for the target when it is ejected so there's signals that point the missile's antenna in the right direction including offsets for roll and angle. There's also inputs for altitude because at higher altitude the missile's guidance fins have to move farther to achieve their desired turn rate than they have to do at lower altitude. Both types of missile's used an umbilical cable with shear pins that broke off when the missile was fired. The 'Winder had a cable attached to its nose that stayed on the aircraft when the missile was launched and thrown away when the aircraft landed. The Sparrow had a shear wafer with break away pins that connected the launcher to the missile. I'll quit now, it's already TLDR.
Wow, thanks for the excellent & comprehensive explanation of the launch process details for the AIM-9 Sidewinder & AIM-7 Sparrow missiles, as well as of the data transfer process from the aircraft's radar system to the Sparrow missile. For me, most interesting & definitely not "TLDR" (lol).
Very cool video. I don't think I've ever seen another channel get this up close to how the missles actually are attached and released from the aircraft. THANKS!
Glad you liked it! Feel pretty fortunate I get to help with this iconic aircraft, as well as learn from our other volunteers. One of whom was a weapons loader!
I appreciate the explanations! The whole subject of weapons and how they mount or are released/ejected is an interesting one. After you see the videos where stores separation didn't quite go as planned, you appreciate the idea of having ejectors to get the stores out of the aircraft's slipstream as quickly as possible!
Thanks for another great video! Your explanations combined with the visual references showing the missile launch station & pylon details (for the Sparrow & Sidewinder missiles) made for an interesting presentation! Several years ago, while in the ANG, I was looking at a sidewinder missile (an inert, training missile, I believe) & noticed a toothed wheel (rather like a ratchet, as I recall) on the aft portion (I think) of the missile. I asked someone (maybe an Ammo technician) what it was for, & I believe I was told that the toothed wheel was an arming device, which would "spin up" aerodynamically to arm the missile, immediately after the missile flew off the lauch rail. I thought that was an interesting detail about the Sidewinder missile (but I don't know for sure how "true" it is, lol!). Thanks again for taking the time to create the great F-4 repair process videos, & the videos of other vintage military jets!
Glad you enjoyed it! That toothed wheel on each rear fin is called a rolleron, and stabilizes the missiles by keeping it from rolling much. Doesn't do anything for arming to my knowledge, that's all in the warhead.
@DieselThunderAviation Thanks! I can't recall exactly what I was told (years ago) about the function of the"rolleron", maybe that its function was to stabilize the missile (& not to arm the missile), but I appreciate your explanation! Have a great day!
Nice tutorial, the weapons guys kept to themselves. One night a bomb-nav guy grabbed me so I could help him test the system on an F4-E. He set up the system in the back seat for me and all I did was fire off a test signal so he could make sure the repairs were good. One time I was at weapons a one of them pulled on the landing gear handle and blew it down. I helped out the angry hydro guy by raising and lowering the gear so he could remove the air out of the lines. This was in 1983 at Osan AB, I was an avionics guy.
That was REALLY good, I'm looking forward to the next time you do a tech episode. As always, thanks for sharing! And I hope you and your lady had a good, and memorable, vacation.
Very good and very accurate description. It gives a good idea how complex it was to fire the missiles on the F-4, especially the C and D models. Are you going to go do the bomb and AGM controls and stations next. You showed most of the controls along side the missile controls already. If you can believe it it is even more complex than the missiles.
Good video! Some interesting additional facts about the Sparrows. Often some wonder why they only logged a 7% kill probability in Vietnam. Part of the reason were those parts shown here. Not mentioned but worth noting is that the Sparrow rotates 90 degrees upon launch. This isn’t modeled in DCS - probably because few would care- but the missile maneuvered best from a X pattern. So, if the missile came off the jet but a fin didn’t work right…game over. If the missile was launched but a pigtail connector failed, no fire signal would be sent to the missile and it would fall inert (“Bdonk” in Israeli terms). If the missile was installed correctly but a gas charge didn’t work properly, the missile would come off at an incorrect angle - remember, it turns to go from “+” to “X”- and go astray. If the missile was installed but the pigtail sensor reel failed, no fire signal would be sent and the missile would drop inert. Add in the radar and G limitations of the Sparrows, plus the lack of education on how to use them on fighters, and you can see why so few hit their targets.
I was in munitions line delivery at the 33rd Eglin when the F4 was there. Those cartridges look like aluminum shotgun shells. We had a storage locker in our flight line revetment full of cartridges of all shapes and sizes. I delivered plenty of carts, missiles and 20mm ammo. The only bombs were practice bombs, usually 25 lb bombs with smoke charges in the nose.
Structural / airframe on Kurnass here. Can't recall ever seeing anything mounted in the 4 recessed stations, but we did have indigenous air to air on the pylon stations, the ones with 2 rows of fins up front. The 69th "Hammers" primary role & specialization was precision air to ground. I was told the crews used to practice a lot of live strafing of old oil barrels. Often they flew with loaded pilons, blue innert or live 250lb, or something smarter, & with 2 or 3 drop tanks. The Phantom is a real bomb truck.
You didn't mention the umbilical for the AIM-9. Early F-4's and Navy used I believe the Aero -7, which used a sliding front cover ( nose piece ) to connect the umbilical to the aircraft and had a snubber assy on the very rear end of the launcher, while the later ones used a hinge nose piece, The umbilical block, that is the connection that actually attaches it to the seeker head section had shear screws, safety wired, and had it's own torque value, 5 in. oz I believe. Captive carry (CATMs) would have an adapter (safeing plug ) that would not fire the gas grain generator used to power the entire thing in free flight. You see, the CATM was just basically an inert tube that looked like it, allowed it to be mounted ( interface ) and that would mount a live guidance and control section that would give the actual feedback to the aircraft weapons system so they could "turn n burn", sim launch, in air combat training. In a real launch of a live, the aircraft would bring the sheared off umbilical cable, to be removed and disposed of. This avoided damage to to the launcher...could immediately be reloaded.
Jamie, the voice audio quality on your recordings seems excellent, clear and natural sounding. Would you mind sharing what kind of microphone you're using? I've been looking to improve the audio quality on my own channel. Thanks. Carl in Houston P.S. It was neat to learn that the "launch rail" is exactly that, a simple rail. Never knew exactly how that worked.
Sure thing! On these kinds of videos, I'm using a Tascam DR-10 wired lav mic clipped to my shirt collar. It's pretty nice and the audio sounds a lot better than the GoPro mic especially if I have to move around. Only trick is having to synchronize the audio, so everything looks and sounds right, and not like a bad overdub of an old kung fu movie.
Five years as a Load Toad on the F-4E, Seymour Johnson AFB. Brought back memories of our daily rask! Mishn0 already covered details. Im guessing you still have Lau-12 bomb racks as well as the centerline rack, and each of these were nuclear capable. The Lau-12 should still have a lockout with a lockout bolt for conventional weapons, or used as an extra lock for carrying travel pods to prevent accidental release. A word of advise, if ever you remove an Aim-7 launcher, install spacer blocks on the aircraft. The launcher is part of the frame, if its removed, and the aircraft gets moved, youll actually will have to tow the plane around while attempting to reinstall the launcher.
Absolutely! Once those launchers get pulled to open the engine doors, the spacer blocks go in right away. Not sure what other racks we have, though can still load travel pods (converted napalm tanks), plus fuel tanks.
Really good video ! 👍 ...and I have a question too : the sidewinders provide this tone....so that the pilot can know when they track a heat source.....how does this audio signal get transmitted to the aircraft? Is there some kind of electrical connection on the sidewinder rail ?
Correct, no smokewinders. If I understand those correctly, they used the exact same system as launching a real one, just the rocket motor is replaced with the smoke generating compound and produces a negligible amount of thrust and can't fly off the rails. If we wanted to do airshow smoke, we'd have to install an oil tank, pump, spray nozzle, and control system like some warbirds have and at least one of the Migs over at Vietnam War Flight Museum. It some form of vegetable oil I believe that is used.
I wonder if Heatblur modelled worn pylons on their simulation? Regardless, I love these deep dives. Gives me a better understanding when I'm flying in DCS
Not sure if they plan to or not. They move really quick, and unless you slow down the sim time like I did for the launches, you'd likely miss it. The other thing that was explained to me before is that when a weapon object is attached, it's part of the airplane in DCS. Once launched (or dropped), the weapon object is no longer part of the airplane and becomes part of the simulation world.
In Monty Python voice, "I'm not dead yet". Traffic had dipped right when I changed the channel name but seems it's about back to where it was before I changed the name.
1) The Sidewinder's locking lugs aren't "retracted" on launch. There's a spring inside that needs a certain amount of force to be overcome to force them to retract or "break", sort of like some of the mechanisms rifles use to delay their bolt unlocking when the gun is fired. High G maneuvering can cause the 'Winder to creep off the lug sometimes and an arrested landing may complete the issue and will allow the missile to fly off the rail. And, other times, on arrest, the missile's seeker head, and maybe also the fuse section and maybe the warhead will all come off leaving the rest, including maybe just the motor where the locking lugs are located, would stay on the rail.
On flight deck debrief I asked a pilot how the systems were on landing, he said the radar was good but he didn't have any tone on the Sidewinder. I looked over and there was only a rocket motor was still on the rail. I pointed over to the rail, he laughed and shrugged.
2) Sparrow: The Sparrow's ejector feet do move really fast, milliseconds. There was also circuitry that would inhibit the motor fire signal if the timing of the ejection carts was incorrect. The forward foot had to come down a few milliseconds before the aft one to ensure the missile wasn't nose up when the motor fired, that would be bad...
The interlock on the centerline station loaded condition was because if there were a centerline tank on board when a forward Sparrow fired, the aft fins on the missile would cut the tank open when it ejected. That would be bad. There were similar interlocks that inhibited a Sidewinder launch if the speed brakes were out. If the missile fired with a speed brake open, it would burn the crap out of the speed brake.
The READY light on the MCP came on on a particular station when the missile was powered up and tuned. The missile had to tune its receiver to match the frequency of the jet's radar transmitter (plus a simulated doppler shift to account for the closing range to the target) That signal is set to the missile by way of antennas on the bottom of the aircraft. If you look at the nose area of each Sparrow station there's a fiberglass cover for an antenna. There's also a fiberglass cover behind each rear well and one between the aft ends of the to forward wells. These send a signal to the missile to tune its receiver. There's one at the nose and tail because the way a Sparrow works is it compares the signal it gets in it's nose antenna from the reflected radar energy off the target to the direct radar energy it gets from the launching aircraft's radar in its tail antenna. It calculated its lead by that comparison.
There's a bunch of other signals that the aircraft sends to the missile to set it up for launch. Since the missile is carried in a "+" configuration with one fin straight up and it flies in an "x" configuration, the radar's computer had to tell it which way to roll upon launch. The missiles are all also in their own orientation, a little nose down and toed in in the front stations, the aft ones were pretty much straight ahead. The missile also needs to be told where to look for the target when it is ejected so there's signals that point the missile's antenna in the right direction including offsets for roll and angle. There's also inputs for altitude because at higher altitude the missile's guidance fins have to move farther to achieve their desired turn rate than they have to do at lower altitude.
Both types of missile's used an umbilical cable with shear pins that broke off when the missile was fired. The 'Winder had a cable attached to its nose that stayed on the aircraft when the missile was launched and thrown away when the aircraft landed. The Sparrow had a shear wafer with break away pins that connected the launcher to the missile.
I'll quit now, it's already TLDR.
Dang good information there, thank you for sharing! Gonna pin this as well!
Wow, thanks for the excellent & comprehensive explanation of the launch process details for the AIM-9 Sidewinder & AIM-7 Sparrow missiles, as well as of the data transfer process from the aircraft's radar system to the Sparrow missile.
For me, most interesting & definitely not "TLDR" (lol).
Very cool video. I don't think I've ever seen another channel get this up close to how the missles actually are attached and released from the aircraft. THANKS!
Glad you liked it! Feel pretty fortunate I get to help with this iconic aircraft, as well as learn from our other volunteers. One of whom was a weapons loader!
I appreciate the explanations! The whole subject of weapons and how they mount or are released/ejected is an interesting one. After you see the videos where stores separation didn't quite go as planned, you appreciate the idea of having ejectors to get the stores out of the aircraft's slipstream as quickly as possible!
It's really funny how it looks like the F-4 is stuffed in someones garage at the house lol
Thanks for another great video! Your explanations combined with the visual references showing the missile launch station & pylon details (for the Sparrow & Sidewinder missiles) made for an interesting presentation!
Several years ago, while in the ANG, I was looking at a sidewinder missile (an inert, training missile, I believe) & noticed a toothed wheel (rather like a ratchet, as I recall) on the aft portion (I think) of the missile. I asked someone (maybe an Ammo technician) what it was for, & I believe I was told that the toothed wheel was an arming device, which would "spin up" aerodynamically to arm the missile, immediately after the missile flew off the lauch rail. I thought that was an interesting detail about the Sidewinder missile (but I don't know for sure how "true" it is, lol!).
Thanks again for taking the time to create the great F-4 repair process videos, & the videos of other vintage military jets!
Glad you enjoyed it! That toothed wheel on each rear fin is called a rolleron, and stabilizes the missiles by keeping it from rolling much. Doesn't do anything for arming to my knowledge, that's all in the warhead.
@DieselThunderAviation Thanks!
I can't recall exactly what I was told (years ago) about the function of the"rolleron", maybe that its function was to stabilize the missile (& not to arm the missile), but I appreciate your explanation!
Have a great day!
Im a mechanic on modern fighters and its fascinating to see how it worked back in the days and how little has changed since !!
Loving this format, mix it up a bit. Learned many new things that joined the dots.
Hope you enjoy your vacation.
Great vid !
Great vid, loving this never knew how this sort of stuff worked, so cool thanks ;)
Great stuff Jaimie, see ya next weekend hopefully! Hope ya had a good vacation!
Nice tutorial, the weapons guys kept to themselves. One night a bomb-nav guy grabbed me so I could help him test the system on an F4-E. He set up the system in the back seat for me and all I did was fire off a test signal so he could make sure the repairs were good. One time I was at weapons a one of them pulled on the landing gear handle and blew it down. I helped out the angry hydro guy by raising and lowering the gear so he could remove the air out of the lines. This was in 1983 at Osan AB, I was an avionics guy.
What an experience! I haven't been part of a gear blow down, but have understood that it's quite messy.
That was REALLY good, I'm looking forward to the next time you do a tech episode. As always, thanks for sharing! And I hope you and your lady had a good, and memorable, vacation.
Great look at the delivery mechanisms. Hope she will be flight ready soon!
Very good and very accurate description. It gives a good idea how complex it was to fire the missiles on the F-4, especially the C and D models. Are you going to go do the bomb and AGM controls and stations next. You showed most of the controls along side the missile controls already. If you can believe it it is even more complex than the missiles.
Good video! Some interesting additional facts about the Sparrows. Often some wonder why they only logged a 7% kill probability in Vietnam. Part of the reason were those parts shown here. Not mentioned but worth noting is that the Sparrow rotates 90 degrees upon launch. This isn’t modeled in DCS - probably because few would care- but the missile maneuvered best from a X pattern.
So, if the missile came off the jet but a fin didn’t work right…game over.
If the missile was launched but a pigtail connector failed, no fire signal would be sent to the missile and it would fall inert (“Bdonk” in Israeli terms).
If the missile was installed correctly but a gas charge didn’t work properly, the missile would come off at an incorrect angle - remember, it turns to go from “+” to “X”- and go astray.
If the missile was installed but the pigtail sensor reel failed, no fire signal would be sent and the missile would drop inert.
Add in the radar and G limitations of the Sparrows, plus the lack of education on how to use them on fighters, and you can see why so few hit their targets.
Excellent video, enjoy your vacation.
wao big excellent video,tnx. 👌👌
I was in munitions line delivery at the 33rd Eglin when the F4 was there. Those cartridges look like aluminum shotgun shells. We had a storage locker in our flight line revetment full of cartridges of all shapes and sizes. I delivered plenty of carts, missiles and 20mm ammo. The only bombs were practice bombs, usually 25 lb bombs with smoke charges in the nose.
Structural / airframe on Kurnass here. Can't recall ever seeing anything mounted in the 4 recessed stations, but we did have indigenous air to air on the pylon stations, the ones with 2 rows of fins up front. The 69th "Hammers" primary role & specialization was precision air to ground.
I was told the crews used to practice a lot of live strafing of old oil barrels. Often they flew with loaded pilons, blue innert or live 250lb, or something smarter, & with 2 or 3 drop tanks. The Phantom is a real bomb truck.
You didn't mention the umbilical for the AIM-9. Early F-4's and Navy used I believe the Aero -7, which used a sliding front cover ( nose piece ) to connect the umbilical to the aircraft and had a snubber assy on the very rear end of the launcher, while the later ones used a hinge nose piece, The umbilical block, that is the connection that actually attaches it to the seeker head section had shear screws, safety wired, and had it's own torque value, 5 in. oz I believe. Captive carry (CATMs) would have an adapter (safeing plug ) that would not fire the gas grain generator used to power the entire thing in free flight. You see, the CATM was just basically an inert tube that looked like it, allowed it to be mounted ( interface ) and that would mount a live guidance and control section that would give the actual feedback to the aircraft weapons system so they could "turn n burn", sim launch, in air combat training. In a real launch of a live, the aircraft would bring the sheared off umbilical cable, to be removed and disposed of. This avoided damage to to the launcher...could immediately be reloaded.
Jamie, the voice audio quality on your recordings seems excellent, clear and natural sounding. Would you mind sharing what kind of microphone you're using? I've been looking to improve the audio quality on my own channel. Thanks. Carl in Houston
P.S. It was neat to learn that the "launch rail" is exactly that, a simple rail. Never knew exactly how that worked.
Sure thing! On these kinds of videos, I'm using a Tascam DR-10 wired lav mic clipped to my shirt collar. It's pretty nice and the audio sounds a lot better than the GoPro mic especially if I have to move around. Only trick is having to synchronize the audio, so everything looks and sounds right, and not like a bad overdub of an old kung fu movie.
Five years as a Load Toad on the F-4E, Seymour Johnson AFB. Brought back memories of our daily rask! Mishn0 already covered details.
Im guessing you still have Lau-12 bomb racks as well as the centerline rack, and each of these were nuclear capable. The Lau-12 should still have a lockout with a lockout bolt for conventional weapons, or used as an extra lock for carrying travel pods to prevent accidental release.
A word of advise, if ever you remove an Aim-7 launcher, install spacer blocks on the aircraft. The launcher is part of the frame, if its removed, and the aircraft gets moved, youll actually will have to tow the plane around while attempting to reinstall the launcher.
Absolutely! Once those launchers get pulled to open the engine doors, the spacer blocks go in right away. Not sure what other racks we have, though can still load travel pods (converted napalm tanks), plus fuel tanks.
@DieselThunderAviation the inboard nylons have the Mau 12, (Not Lau-12, like I had suggested, dang cobwebs!).
@DieselThunderAviation The centerline is an Areo-27A bombrack, also nuclear capable, but I can't remember the details.
Really good video ! 👍 ...and I have a question too : the sidewinders provide this tone....so that the pilot can know when they track a heat source.....how does this audio signal get transmitted to the aircraft? Is there some kind of electrical connection on the sidewinder rail ?
See the pinned comment for more details, but yes, there is an umbilical that provides the tones/missile control.
@DieselThunderAviation ok cool thanks👍
So, since she's had all her combat capabilities removed, does that mean you can't also use Smokewinders as well?
Correct, no smokewinders. If I understand those correctly, they used the exact same system as launching a real one, just the rocket motor is replaced with the smoke generating compound and produces a negligible amount of thrust and can't fly off the rails. If we wanted to do airshow smoke, we'd have to install an oil tank, pump, spray nozzle, and control system like some warbirds have and at least one of the Migs over at Vietnam War Flight Museum. It some form of vegetable oil I believe that is used.
Thanks phor the nice video. Very informative! Hope you had a great vacation!
I wonder if Heatblur modelled worn pylons on their simulation? Regardless, I love these deep dives. Gives me a better understanding when I'm flying in DCS
👌
Heatblur didn't model the pistons? The Hornet, Viper, and F-15C all do it. :(
Not sure if they plan to or not. They move really quick, and unless you slow down the sim time like I did for the launches, you'd likely miss it. The other thing that was explained to me before is that when a weapon object is attached, it's part of the airplane in DCS. Once launched (or dropped), the weapon object is no longer part of the airplane and becomes part of the simulation world.
@@DieselThunderAviation Watch any of those planes I mentioned in slow motion. It's there!
Damn a hung 9.... try having a hung 500lb bomb.
That does not sound pleasant!
2 minutes, no views. channel's dead.
In Monty Python voice, "I'm not dead yet". Traffic had dipped right when I changed the channel name but seems it's about back to where it was before I changed the name.
Screw off.
Somebody should check your head for dark matter with how empty it is