All of the sith were dangerous and evil. They could have brought back Bane, or Plaegus, or even Nihilus. I actually like the idea of using someone other than Palpatine as you proposed. It would have made for a better movie abd retained the finality of vader killing palpatine for ROTJ.
In the “Duel of the Fates” script, Kylo Ren was supreme leader controlling things from Darth Vader’s castle. Learning to embrace his dark side and become all powerful. Hux was made chancellor, running the military from Couroscant. This sounds so much better as the final villains. They were there from the start of the ST, and it felt like a natural direction for them.
@@jeremyfields9009at least it was better than bringing Palpatibe back. They should have at this point committed in fleshing out the remaining villains.
Hux deserved the promotion considering he`s the only villain not to crap the bed in Force Awakens. That wasn't Hux in The Last Jedi, it was Mux is incompetent half brother
1:50 “couldn’t commit to their own ideas”. To add to that, there were NO ideas at all, nostalgia aside, three independent films were made in hope they’ll work together and be a trilogy which doesn’t happen.
Then how do you feel about Dark Empire? Curious to me. Also, I think Sidious himself might be the only good thing about episode 9. Ian Mcdiarmid is too good as Palpatine.
@@tootall4716 there's a difference between defending something for actually liking it and defending it out of self-denying cope, which motivates the sequels simps.
This movie makes Anakin and all the "chosen one" phophecy almost insignificant. It the climax of final face off between Rey and Palpatine, Anakins ghost says "bring back the balance, as I did". Therefore all that THE CHOSEN ONE, made by THE FORCE ITSELF was able to do was bring balance for like 30 years, and then the same was done again by a girl who just had a powerful grandpa.
@@wobba4436 it would certainly had been better than we got. but it would also had undermined anakins redemption and the conclusion of the OT. but its speculation anyway. they came. they saw. and they failed spectacularly. fuck disney
they had dozens of books of lore, a galaxy of possibility, and they choose laziness? For the amount of money they paidd, this is a pathetic excuse for the result, even iff it is kind of true. I can come up with better lore and story for free.
@@kimrasmussen7188 That would've made a lot more sense, honestly. Snoke could've been the First Order's failed attempt at cloning Palpatine using personnel and facilities from Kamino, except he's all warped and aged from the Dark Side messing up his quick-grown body. It could also explain why the First Order appears so powerful and omnipresent despite their fringe nature- if there's more than one Snoke running the empire, using their force abilities to direct entire legions, they'd be a lot closer to a Sith Empire run by a council of like-minded force users than a weakened Imperial Fleet.
Although folks act like this is the first time he came back, when he didn't. He showed up in Legends in Dark Empire in a clone body. Although him coming back would go against the whole chosen one thing, dark empire was made before the prequels, so it wasn't really established. That is why I think Rey should have been Anakin reincarnated, which would actually explain a lot. Why she was so strong, why she has a connection to the skywalkers, why Anakin's saber called out to her and why Anakin's ghost was absent. And her being a reincarnation of the chosen one would make sense and the prophecy would be fulfilled after she defeated Palpatine. That one change would have solved a lot of issues.
It was a huge mistake to bring him back. Not only is it “been there done that” but it really defeats the sacrifice Anakin made in ROTJ. They could have just said that Snoke was a failed clone housing the spirit of Plagus. It would have made sense, plagus was obsessed with living forever through the force. Clone force sensitive bodies to house his spirit instead of him submitting to having it absorbed into the force matches that obsession. It also would’ve connected the new trilogy with a piece of the past while introducing a character we had only read about in books. But now they had to just decided to take the easy route and in the process, making a sacrifice meaningless and throwing the prophecy of the one right out the window.
If the jedi can become e force ghosts why not let Palpy have his corrupted clones. Makes logical since. Hell you could say it's the next logical conclusion it reinsert your "soul" into a new being
His return wasn't the problem. It's how it happened. Dark Empire did it objectively better, as Vader's death is salvaged by the fact that Luke his son finished off Palpatine for good with a Jedi Master sacrificing himself to ensure Palps stays dead. Plus DE actually explains details of how he returned and having multiple clone bodies meant Palps was more complex a problem that simply killing him couldn't solve. In EP 9 it was just terrible with no actual build up, shoved in to give an already doomed "trilogy" a false sense of saga conclusion and "this was the plan all along", which no one logically believed. It also cheapened Snoke's death in TLJ and his awesomish character as a whole by reducing him to simply a fleshy meat puppet mouthpiece for Palpatine, the film just goes back and forth on what exactly Palps wants with Rey, eventually ordering her to kill him, and in the end she does it anyway so how can we be sure if he's actually dead for good or not? Overall it makes no sense while Dark Empire has flaws but if objectively liek the Prequels leagues better then the new thing.
@@TheChristianPsychopath Not exactly a mistake, because was never clear if that's actually him or just a crazy clone of him, like Joruus C'Baoth from the Thrawn trilogy for example. And, by the way, George Lucas himself gave Tom Veich that idea to bring Palpatine back somehow, and he years later made a big reference to Palpatine's eventual comeback on Revenge of the Sith, with all that Darth Plagueis Midchlorians manipulation and Palpatine clear desire to activate immortality, so...
@@antoniocarlosgomesfernedag1637 That applies most to Darth Maul, actually, because Palpatine at least was a Sith master who knows a plethora of Force secrets and abilities, especially Darth Plagueis' Midchlorians' manipulation in order to active immortality...
@darthlucasfuu Veitch wanted to bring back Vader and Lucas said no but let him use Palpatine instead. It was very clear in Dark Empire that Palpatine was transferring his essence to fresh clones. Now I think whole "Chosen One" prophecy is silly. The mistake was just resurrecting dead characters in general. Palpatine at least was using an established world building element of cloning. The other mistake Lucasfilm made with Dark Empire was more releasing two major stories simultaneously (three if you count Jedi Prince) without coordinating them. I think they underestimated how popular Heir to the Empire would be and did not anticipate the fan demand to make these stories work together.
The sequels should have been about the rise of a new threat, and the attempt of Luke Skywalker and his new padawans (Kylo and Rey) fighting to prevent it. The first big twist should have been the reveal that this new threat was in fact Darth Plagueis, and that he survived the assassination attempt by Darth Sidious. The second big reveal should have been that Plagueis was the one that influenced the midichlorians in order to create Anakin, and Anakin's body was originally meant to be taken over by Plagueis as his final form, but the assassination attempt by Sidious prevented that from happening, as well as the ruining of Anakin's body at the hands of Obi-Wan. Rey should have been Plagueis' second attempt at creating the perfect vessel to transfer his body into, she would have been born out of the force. This is why nobody knew where she came from and she was a hyper force-sensitive. Then Kylo would have been the chosen padawan for Plagueis' once he had his final form. Luke would have played a major role and one of the main characters throughout the entire trilogy.
They were more worried about nostalgia and scaling the new characters to the old ones, that they forgot to write a thought out story arc for each main character.
Disney is not Canon to me anymore. Only the OG Trilogy, and everything pre Disney's Ownership. I won't be watching anything new ever again. They don't deserve our money.
@@YoURARuSsIANBoTI remember my buddy being jazzed about Disney buying Star Wars when it first happened. He was excited because they had done such a good job with the Marvel universe 😂
I didn't realize it was actually Palpatine. I always thought he was supposed to be a clone with Palpatines memories but it would have been nice to get more explanation on how he came to be.
Bringing back Palpatine reminds me how my nephew tells stories. He'll say something like Jack went up the Beanstalk, and then there was a giant, and then he was down with all the treasure. 😂
Y'all do know in the EU comic The Dark Empire trilogy that palpatine came back, made a clone body for himself when he was a sith spirit, why do you think they got the idea from?
This was the breaker for Disney's SW for me. Believe it or not I could have forgiven Luke's mopyness, Rey's op, or even the explanation in the republics fall. But this, this is an insult to fans everywhere.
Anakin still achieved achieved balance. Had he not defeated the emperor in ROTJ and the empire did not fall, by the time of Force Awakens the empire would have not stopped growing and would have already taken over the galaxy, the rebels would have fallen, the resistance would never be, and Rey would probably have ended up being found by Palpatine.
Of course it makes sense for him to return. This is supposed to be the same story for nine movies, so having his involvement was necessary for continuity. Most people that criticize this decision honestly have poor literary comprehension. Dark science and cloning is literally the way he returned--that's it. If you want more detail you can look it up on Google and get all the answers.
1. TRoS was constrained to the mistakes made in TFA and TLJ, which both made huge blunders. TFA was the greatest disappointment. It had the most freedom to do anything and the biggest responsibility to set the foundation for the trilogy and TFA committed the ST to rehashing the past. TLJ had good ideas, but betrayed the set up that TFA laid down. It was obvious in TFA that Rey's lineage was significant. She couldn't be just a nobody, or else there was no reason to have the vision touching Anakin's lightsaber. Even Luke didn't have that experience with it. The reveal she was no one made no sense at all and completely undermined what TFA set up. Hence, TRoS was trying to land a story that was already crashing, maybe hoping to keep half a ship intact. 2. Vader's sacrifice was dying to save his son and that was what redeemed him. Sheev's death was incidental to that event and so his revival was irrelevant to Anakin's redemption. Anakin overcame the darkness in himself and that was the only thing needed for redemption. Sheev's death saved the rebellion after Anakin was redeemed. 3. The PT laid the foundation for Sheev's revival and that was the point of the lines about cloning and sith secrets. If any real world dictator had a massive clone army, there is no way they aren't at least experimenting and considering the viability of clone backups in case of assassination to maintain the regime. The only problem is the danger of your clone deciding to replace you before you died. But that's where sith secrets come in. Sheev tempted Anakin with sith knowledge of manipulating medichlorians to create life and cheat death. We already know jedi can manifest force ghosts, so it's not so surprising sith can do something similar to preserve their souls. If you have clone sleeves and disembodied souls, you have a foundation to resurrection. Just put 2 and 2 together to make 4. TRoS was sloppy and rushed. That is true. I still feel it was the only logical conclusion to the trilogy given the mess created by treacherous TLJ stabbing misguided TFA in the back. Snoke still deserved better, but it was TLJ that threw him away carelessly, not TRoS. TRoS was under pressure to explain his importance, since TLJ threw him under the bus. TRoS needed to spend more time setting its conclusion up, but that's because TFA and TLJ left it practicalky nothing coherent to work with. It was a trilogy that sabotaged itself. Most of TRoS's flaws were not it's own fault.
You know I thought having The Emperor Return for Star Wars Episode XI was the best thing out of The Sequel Trilogy I actually thought it was the only best thing in The Movie and I even said when Episode VII came out in 2015 The Emperor will return and I have a feeling he is behind The First Order like The Fall of The Old Republic and The Galactic Empire.
What I hate most about Palpatine’s return is Disney then wastes all the future contents to explain and justify this casual decision-- Mandalorian, Bad Batch, Acolyte. Won’t even be surprised if they try to squeeze this crap into Andor season 2.
A core reason a series should never be continued without its original creator: the "fans" who step up to make the next wave of content will always be compelled to banish elements of the story they didn't like. JJ abrams doesn't like Phantom menace or the chosen one prophecy, so when he makes his Star Wars movie he gets to just throw out and ignore that part of the story, but now for fans who actually like the complete story the way it was: nothing makes any sense
To be fair, the idea of Palpatine coming back isnt bad on itself. But what they shouldve done would be to emphasizing his relationship with the dark side of the force and use it to explain his return. Show that he has used the dark side to the point that he has transcended beyond his human form and has become the Nyarlathotep of the Star Wars mythos; an eldritch abomination that is the literal embodiment of cosmic evil and who only uses his human form to manipulate and toy with mortal beings. The legends played with that concept and if they'd better writers for the sequels, than it'd mostly feel like a natural return than a plot hole handwaved with one or two halfassed expositions.
There is a book story of him coming back to life as a clone. I never read the book but as I know from fans, he was brought back in a very suspenseful reveal, hinting something dark is coming but they don’t know what. Luke battled him in the end.
Honestly when watching it, I was glad to see Palpatine after watching the other sequel movies. Maybe it brought back good memories from the others movies. The lack of new characters on the light or dark side in the sequels that I cared about was real. I was just happy to see him use some real deal dark side powers. Not that it was the right thing to do for the story but Palapatine was a breath of fresh air
Why didn't they bring back Mace Windu a Jedi Master or any other member of the Jedi Order too? Kylo Ren said it best, "No, No. You're Still Holding On! Let Go!"
Whatever writer that created snoke came up with the perfect villain to reboot the series along with Kylo did it correctly. By just saying "yeah? Snoke?? Hmmmm.. oh he's just a puppet of palpatine forget about him" uh ... Duck that!!!! God dammit 😆 I was so pissed. Snoke was AWESOME and they just dropped him like a hot potato 🥔 😡 also fckrd up Vader's redemption arc.
I can’t agree on Rey getting a modest but sure build up as a nobody, JJ made a conscious (or stoopid?) decision to hype up who she was, allegedly a Kenobi as far as Daisy knew. Rian just came to break the plates and paste them backwards, again screwing up who she was with ambiguous symbolism that could mean nothing at all. Finally she took the Skywalker name when expectation was crushed into apathy. I don’t accept her as Palpatine since that sounds like mental gymnastics done wrong to cannibalize Trevorrow’s equally dumb “Rey Solana” idea, but also since it ultimately remains pointless if she takes another name anyway, for reasons not even explained on-screen, which in hindsight makes the emperor TWICE as unnecessary to be brought back to life.
lol not a single person called this subversive, I don’t think you know what that word means. It’s the exact opposite of subversive. That’s literally the whole gripe about it.
@HoustonSoto Bro, those movies sucked. Get over it. "No one," said it was aversive either. 🤓🤓 But who ever did, knew what they were talking about. Thanks to the guy above. That's not Anthony Soto.
@@TheChristianPsychopath Agreed, I love Dark Empire. I had no problem with Palpatine being there because it made sense especially with stuff we knew about his powers from other EU novels. Disney Star Wars is just nonsense through and through.
@@TheChristianPsychopath They gave a good reason why he retuned giving the lore we knew at the time. The Dark Side takes a huge toll on a body, so he has back up bodies when the current one inevitably fails. Makes sense.
@aaronlaughter6471 Lore wise it didn't break plausibly. It was more that they released Dark Empire on top of Heir to the Empire, instead of waiting and letting them build off each other.
This is why only stick to episodes 1 to 3 Rogue one. and episodes 4 to 6 should not have. Continue with a franchise. As I keep saying, it should have ended with. Return of the jedi
Snoke shouldn't have been related to palpatine in any way. He should have been a more ancient force from beyond the old republic. A former sith that put himself in cryogenic sleep that would become the new menace.
I fundamentally disagree with almost everything you said. The sequel trilogy isn't even the first time that palpatine was cloned, it happened already it's in the comics.
This anticlimactic slap together of a story is more like a bodyslam of our expectations. It picks us up just throw us down. How awfully stupid did they think we are? And how stupid are they to think we are that stupid? No wonder George Lucas is extremely disappointed in these people!
He was simply a selling point for the movie. After the last jedi no one cared where the story went, they needed something to draw audiences in, the laugh in the trailer was the only thing selling the movie. For me i only look at lucas's work as the real star wars, this nonsense is just something else that fanboys could have wrote better
Win every trilogy it changes whose story the series is. The original trilogy as the story of Luke. The prequels made the series the Story of Anakin/ Darth Vader. With the latest 3 sequels it turned it into the story of Palpatine. Which made no sense.
Personally, I always had a feeling Palpatine would be involved in episode 9 somehow, even before episode 8 came out, it's just felt like something Disney would do, but what I wasn't expecting was HOW they were going to do it... 😑 If I was writing episode 9 and Palpatine HAD to be involved, I would have gone down a psychological route, long story short but only have Kylo Ren see him as a vision, representing how far Ren is in the dark side and since he shares a bond with Rey, she starts seeing him as-well, tempting her to join the dark side, that way he's involved, but not actually back.
I really liked The Force Awakens and thought it would be the start of a worthy second trilogy. But the second two movies were so bad you can tell the people involved did not give a crap about Star Wars at all.
I dont hate the idea of Palpatine returning. Its how they did it with no set up other than hey look here he is. And to those that say but it ruins things/character arcs etc Just like in life not everything has a happy ending. Things happen unexpected things happen. If it makes logical since ie play off Palpatine conversation in the opera scene from ep 3 about how the dark side might allow one to cheat death then so be it
You are WAY over thinking it. The difference is between creativity and greed. Disney is a business to make MONEY. Just slap Star Wars on the title and let the cash flow. Disney doesn’t care about story. They care about profits.
Great video. The whole return of The Emperor was done in the most generic and shallow way. The ending couldn't have been worse. All in a matter of 15 minutes or so they have him be reborn as seemingly more powerful than ever, toy with the Rey and Kylo, begin to bring down the largest rebel fleet ever assembled, only to have a silly, untrained, unlearned girl destroy him in a matter of seconds😳. When I saw her destroy him I gaged🤮. If they planned on bringing him back at least make it grand, big, major! Would have required a sequel but at least made his return somewhat more eventful and legit! ✌🏼💪🏼🙏🏼
I really hate to say this but Palpatine and Snoke are just plot devices in the original and sequel trilogies. If you remove them from their respective stories nothing really changes, Vader assassinating Palpatine is very satisfying but not ultimately necessary for Vader to defect. Snoke from what I understand was always going to die in the Last Jedi because it was always part of Kylo's story.
Ill never get over how stupid "somehow palaptine returned" is. No Poe... that is the writers perspect. Are you completely breaking the fourth wall and sitting in the writers room? You werent there when he died in ROTJ. No one present was. Therefor your perspective would be, "Somehow palpatine SURVIVED". As far as you would know Poe, Palpatines fate was grossly exaggerated, or Luke lied about him going down with the death star. Pretty observant of you to immediately realize this was a clone. Too observant. I doubt any of those characterd would have the sense to even realize that is what they were dealing with. Stoopid writers. Equally stoopid characters.
Palpatine has a deep obsession with immortality both in canon and legends. In legends he follows his own sith ideology reffed as the rule of one which stated that the Sith would be embodied by a sole reigning Dark Lord-Sidious himself-who would live forever as Emperor of the galaxy, having no need to train a replacement, and availing himself solely of capable executors of his will, talented in the Force as dark side agents. Furthermore palpatine in both canon and legends is a master of dark essence to transfer a person's consciousness into another body, or in some cases an inanimate object. He also operated a imperial cloning program to create either an exact Force-sensitive clone or a Force-sensitive strandcast capable of serving as a replacement body for Palpatine, thus allowing him to achieve immortality during the age of the empire. In legends palpatine return ruling over the dark empire.
"Somehow, Palpatine returned."
Translation: He stepped out of Bobby Ewing's shower.
@@jimslancio EXACTLY straight out of Darth Vader's castle lol
Damn you for planting the cursed image of Palpatine naked and lathering up in the shower in my mind
The fact they killed off luke but brought palpatine back shows you they had no plan or vision from the get go.
I refuse to accept TRoS as canon.
I hated sequel even from TFA. EU/Legends is THE ONLY canon for me
Yes, and the last jedi.
ME TOO 👍
Snoke should've been DARTH PLAEIGUS'S in that snoke clone it would've made some since ?
All of the sith were dangerous and evil.
They could have brought back Bane, or Plaegus, or even Nihilus. I actually like the idea of using someone other than Palpatine as you proposed. It would have made for a better movie abd retained the finality of vader killing palpatine for ROTJ.
In the “Duel of the Fates” script, Kylo Ren was supreme leader controlling things from Darth Vader’s castle. Learning to embrace his dark side and become all powerful. Hux was made chancellor, running the military from Couroscant. This sounds so much better as the final villains. They were there from the start of the ST, and it felt like a natural direction for them.
MAKES SENSE too me
Duel of the fates is just as bad as TROS.
@@jeremyfields9009at least it was better than bringing Palpatibe back. They should have at this point committed in fleshing out the remaining villains.
Hux deserved the promotion considering he`s the only villain not to crap the bed in Force Awakens. That wasn't Hux in The Last Jedi, it was Mux is incompetent half brother
1:50 “couldn’t commit to their own ideas”. To add to that, there were NO ideas at all, nostalgia aside, three independent films were made in hope they’ll work together and be a trilogy which doesn’t happen.
As a die hard OG Star Wars fan, I still have not seen this movie and never will. Disney has zero clue.
You've made the right decision there. I regret watching this garbage.
Same I’ve never watched the new ones and never will
I couldn't stop laughing while watching it. World's greatest unintentional comedy.
Smart move. I did decide to do it and this was me half the movie: 🤦
Then how do you feel about Dark Empire? Curious to me.
Also, I think Sidious himself might be the only good thing about episode 9. Ian Mcdiarmid is too good as Palpatine.
The proper lesson here is to never give JJ Abrams control of Star Wars or Star Trek ever again.
Or anything ever again
I don't think its divisive at all. I think just about everyone hated it.
I know some people who try to defend the newest movies. They can’t make a persuasive argument however.
@@tootall4716 there's a difference between defending something for actually liking it and defending it out of self-denying cope, which motivates the sequels simps.
Don’t go saying that on the star wars subreddit
This movie makes Anakin and all the "chosen one" phophecy almost insignificant. It the climax of final face off between Rey and Palpatine, Anakins ghost says "bring back the balance, as I did". Therefore all that THE CHOSEN ONE, made by THE FORCE ITSELF was able to do was bring balance for like 30 years, and then the same was done again by a girl who just had a powerful grandpa.
And then there’s the twins in the Acolyte.. 😂
If you wonder why people say Disney hates Star Wars fans, Rise of Skywalker is the answer to that answer, a spit in the eye of us fans
palpatine only returned because there was no villans left, hux was turned into a moron and kylo cant be taken serusly, episode 8 ruined everything
they could had made the 1st snoke a clone and made it a struggle to find the REAL snoke.
they literally chose the worst option
@@kimrasmussen7188 snoke could have been a secret appertice that sidious had would have been better
@@wobba4436 it would certainly had been better than we got. but it would also had undermined anakins redemption and
the conclusion of the OT.
but its speculation anyway.
they came. they saw. and they failed spectacularly. fuck disney
they had dozens of books of lore, a galaxy of possibility, and they choose laziness? For the amount of money they paidd, this is a pathetic excuse for the result, even iff it is kind of true. I can come up with better lore and story for free.
@@kimrasmussen7188 That would've made a lot more sense, honestly. Snoke could've been the First Order's failed attempt at cloning Palpatine using personnel and facilities from Kamino, except he's all warped and aged from the Dark Side messing up his quick-grown body.
It could also explain why the First Order appears so powerful and omnipresent despite their fringe nature- if there's more than one Snoke running the empire, using their force abilities to direct entire legions, they'd be a lot closer to a Sith Empire run by a council of like-minded force users than a weakened Imperial Fleet.
Palpatine is now behind every single war within the movie continuity. That's unbelievably ridiculous
Legends did it better than canon on everything. 😅
Agreed 100%
@@dylanwhite3383 agreed 200%
Every damn time.
Disneys star wars is not canon.
Legends did not do Palpatine’s return better than Canon lol.
The point for all the theatrics is because Disney didn’t plan Palps in until Episode 9
Disney didn’t plan ANYTHING!!! Man they really screwed this up especially for us fans who’ve been around since the beginning.
Although folks act like this is the first time he came back, when he didn't. He showed up in Legends in Dark Empire in a clone body. Although him coming back would go against the whole chosen one thing, dark empire was made before the prequels, so it wasn't really established. That is why I think Rey should have been Anakin reincarnated, which would actually explain a lot. Why she was so strong, why she has a connection to the skywalkers, why Anakin's saber called out to her and why Anakin's ghost was absent. And her being a reincarnation of the chosen one would make sense and the prophecy would be fulfilled after she defeated Palpatine. That one change would have solved a lot of issues.
It was a huge mistake to bring him back. Not only is it “been there done that” but it really defeats the sacrifice Anakin made in ROTJ. They could have just said that Snoke was a failed clone housing the spirit of Plagus. It would have made sense, plagus was obsessed with living forever through the force. Clone force sensitive bodies to house his spirit instead of him submitting to having it absorbed into the force matches that obsession. It also would’ve connected the new trilogy with a piece of the past while introducing a character we had only read about in books.
But now they had to just decided to take the easy route and in the process, making a sacrifice meaningless and throwing the prophecy of the one right out the window.
Right out the window, just like Mace Windu
If the jedi can become e force ghosts why not let Palpy have his corrupted clones.
Makes logical since. Hell you could say it's the next logical conclusion it reinsert your "soul" into a new being
His return wasn't the problem. It's how it happened. Dark Empire did it objectively better, as Vader's death is salvaged by the fact that Luke his son finished off Palpatine for good with a Jedi Master sacrificing himself to ensure Palps stays dead. Plus DE actually explains details of how he returned and having multiple clone bodies meant Palps was more complex a problem that simply killing him couldn't solve.
In EP 9 it was just terrible with no actual build up, shoved in to give an already doomed "trilogy" a false sense of saga conclusion and "this was the plan all along", which no one logically believed. It also cheapened Snoke's death in TLJ and his awesomish character as a whole by reducing him to simply a fleshy meat puppet mouthpiece for Palpatine, the film just goes back and forth on what exactly Palps wants with Rey, eventually ordering her to kill him, and in the end she does it anyway so how can we be sure if he's actually dead for good or not? Overall it makes no sense while Dark Empire has flaws but if objectively liek the Prequels leagues better then the new thing.
Dead characters should stay dead.....
Bringing him back in Dark Empire was a mistake too, but it was done way better.
@@TheChristianPsychopath Not exactly a mistake, because was never clear if that's actually him or just a crazy clone of him, like Joruus C'Baoth from the Thrawn trilogy for example. And, by the way, George Lucas himself gave Tom Veich that idea to bring Palpatine back somehow, and he years later made a big reference to Palpatine's eventual comeback on Revenge of the Sith, with all that Darth Plagueis Midchlorians manipulation and Palpatine clear desire to activate immortality, so...
@@antoniocarlosgomesfernedag1637 That applies most to Darth Maul, actually, because Palpatine at least was a Sith master who knows a plethora of Force secrets and abilities, especially Darth Plagueis' Midchlorians' manipulation in order to active immortality...
@darthlucasfuu Veitch wanted to bring back Vader and Lucas said no but let him use Palpatine instead. It was very clear in Dark Empire that Palpatine was transferring his essence to fresh clones.
Now I think whole "Chosen One" prophecy is silly. The mistake was just resurrecting dead characters in general. Palpatine at least was using an established world building element of cloning.
The other mistake Lucasfilm made with Dark Empire was more releasing two major stories simultaneously (three if you count Jedi Prince) without coordinating them. I think they underestimated how popular Heir to the Empire would be and did not anticipate the fan demand to make these stories work together.
Somehow, they should have brought back Anakin too so they could have a real fight scene and Anakin could kill him off once and for all.
Once Palpatine is dead in Return of the Jedi, he’s truly Dead.
The sequels should have been about the rise of a new threat, and the attempt of Luke Skywalker and his new padawans (Kylo and Rey) fighting to prevent it. The first big twist should have been the reveal that this new threat was in fact Darth Plagueis, and that he survived the assassination attempt by Darth Sidious.
The second big reveal should have been that Plagueis was the one that influenced the midichlorians in order to create Anakin, and Anakin's body was originally meant to be taken over by Plagueis as his final form, but the assassination attempt by Sidious prevented that from happening, as well as the ruining of Anakin's body at the hands of Obi-Wan.
Rey should have been Plagueis' second attempt at creating the perfect vessel to transfer his body into, she would have been born out of the force. This is why nobody knew where she came from and she was a hyper force-sensitive. Then Kylo would have been the chosen padawan for Plagueis' once he had his final form. Luke would have played a major role and one of the main characters throughout the entire trilogy.
Maybe one day I can transfer my conscious to a different time line and be able to see a whole new trilogy about the Yuuzhan Vong war on the big screen
They were more worried about nostalgia and scaling the new characters to the old ones, that they forgot to write a thought out story arc for each main character.
Disney is not Canon to me anymore. Only the OG Trilogy, and everything pre Disney's Ownership. I won't be watching anything new ever again. They don't deserve our money.
Disney has fucked up Star Wars 😩
@VincentScales Indeed. We shouldn't give them another second of watch time, or another dollar of our money
@@YoURARuSsIANBoTI remember my buddy being jazzed about Disney buying Star Wars when it first happened. He was excited because they had done such a good job with the Marvel universe 😂
@@YoURARuSsIANBoT Damn right ✅️
@@TheJeffreycooper THEY DID ??
I agree. Palpatine should never have returned. Not in canon, and not in the Expanded Universe.
I didn't realize it was actually Palpatine. I always thought he was supposed to be a clone with Palpatines memories but it would have been nice to get more explanation on how he came to be.
This also makes the force awakens age poorly like milk
Palpatine's return message was heard by Poe when he played Fortnite. That game is canon to Star Wars.
Bringing back Palpatine reminds me how my nephew tells stories. He'll say something like Jack went up the Beanstalk, and then there was a giant, and then he was down with all the treasure. 😂
What a horrific movie and the stunt of bringing back Palpatine was an epic failure. JJ and Kathy were awful!
Y'all do know in the EU comic The Dark Empire trilogy that palpatine came back, made a clone body for himself when he was a sith spirit, why do you think they got the idea from?
Who are you? I'm Rey. Rey Who?
*Rey Sidious*
[insert Augie's Municipal Band in 2x speed]
Thought it was RAID Shadow Legends!
This was the breaker for Disney's SW for me.
Believe it or not I could have forgiven Luke's mopyness, Rey's op, or even the explanation in the republics fall.
But this, this is an insult to fans everywhere.
Surprised they didn't CGI in Boba Fett wandering pointlessly through a couple scenes.
The O.G Dark Empire was way better and had the O.G Characters being explored further, especially Princess Leia who had a strong story arc with Luke.
Anakin still achieved achieved balance. Had he not defeated the emperor in ROTJ and the empire did not fall, by the time of Force Awakens the empire would have not stopped growing and would have already taken over the galaxy, the rebels would have fallen, the resistance would never be, and Rey would probably have ended up being found by Palpatine.
Of course it makes sense for him to return. This is supposed to be the same story for nine movies, so having his involvement was necessary for continuity. Most people that criticize this decision honestly have poor literary comprehension. Dark science and cloning is literally the way he returned--that's it. If you want more detail you can look it up on Google and get all the answers.
1. TRoS was constrained to the mistakes made in TFA and TLJ, which both made huge blunders. TFA was the greatest disappointment. It had the most freedom to do anything and the biggest responsibility to set the foundation for the trilogy and TFA committed the ST to rehashing the past. TLJ had good ideas, but betrayed the set up that TFA laid down. It was obvious in TFA that Rey's lineage was significant. She couldn't be just a nobody, or else there was no reason to have the vision touching Anakin's lightsaber. Even Luke didn't have that experience with it. The reveal she was no one made no sense at all and completely undermined what TFA set up. Hence, TRoS was trying to land a story that was already crashing, maybe hoping to keep half a ship intact.
2. Vader's sacrifice was dying to save his son and that was what redeemed him. Sheev's death was incidental to that event and so his revival was irrelevant to Anakin's redemption. Anakin overcame the darkness in himself and that was the only thing needed for redemption. Sheev's death saved the rebellion after Anakin was redeemed.
3. The PT laid the foundation for Sheev's revival and that was the point of the lines about cloning and sith secrets. If any real world dictator had a massive clone army, there is no way they aren't at least experimenting and considering the viability of clone backups in case of assassination to maintain the regime. The only problem is the danger of your clone deciding to replace you before you died. But that's where sith secrets come in. Sheev tempted Anakin with sith knowledge of manipulating medichlorians to create life and cheat death. We already know jedi can manifest force ghosts, so it's not so surprising sith can do something similar to preserve their souls. If you have clone sleeves and disembodied souls, you have a foundation to resurrection. Just put 2 and 2 together to make 4.
TRoS was sloppy and rushed. That is true.
I still feel it was the only logical conclusion to the trilogy given the mess created by treacherous TLJ stabbing misguided TFA in the back.
Snoke still deserved better, but it was TLJ that threw him away carelessly, not TRoS. TRoS was under pressure to explain his importance, since TLJ threw him under the bus.
TRoS needed to spend more time setting its conclusion up, but that's because TFA and TLJ left it practicalky nothing coherent to work with. It was a trilogy that sabotaged itself.
Most of TRoS's flaws were not it's own fault.
You know I thought having The Emperor Return for Star Wars Episode XI was the best thing out of The Sequel Trilogy I actually thought it was the only best thing in The Movie and I even said when Episode VII came out in 2015 The Emperor will return and I have a feeling he is behind The First Order like The Fall of The Old Republic and The Galactic Empire.
What I hate most about Palpatine’s return is Disney then wastes all the future contents to explain and justify this casual decision-- Mandalorian, Bad Batch, Acolyte. Won’t even be surprised if they try to squeeze this crap into Andor season 2.
A core reason a series should never be continued without its original creator: the "fans" who step up to make the next wave of content will always be compelled to banish elements of the story they didn't like. JJ abrams doesn't like Phantom menace or the chosen one prophecy, so when he makes his Star Wars movie he gets to just throw out and ignore that part of the story, but now for fans who actually like the complete story the way it was: nothing makes any sense
To be fair, the idea of Palpatine coming back isnt bad on itself. But what they shouldve done would be to emphasizing his relationship with the dark side of the force and use it to explain his return. Show that he has used the dark side to the point that he has transcended beyond his human form and has become the Nyarlathotep of the Star Wars mythos; an eldritch abomination that is the literal embodiment of cosmic evil and who only uses his human form to manipulate and toy with mortal beings. The legends played with that concept and if they'd better writers for the sequels, than it'd mostly feel like a natural return than a plot hole handwaved with one or two halfassed expositions.
There is a book story of him coming back to life as a clone. I never read the book but as I know from fans, he was brought back in a very suspenseful reveal, hinting something dark is coming but they don’t know what. Luke battled him in the end.
Honestly when watching it, I was glad to see Palpatine after watching the other sequel movies. Maybe it brought back good memories from the others movies. The lack of new characters on the light or dark side in the sequels that I cared about was real. I was just happy to see him use some real deal dark side powers. Not that it was the right thing to do for the story but Palapatine was a breath of fresh air
This is what happens when you don't have a plan for your trilogy.
"...... I'm back! Make me a big black robe with a red interior!" WHO went ahead and made it for him?!
Thank the Force for Dark Empire.
Why didn't they bring back Mace Windu a Jedi Master or any other member of the Jedi Order too? Kylo Ren said it best, "No, No. You're Still Holding On! Let Go!"
How doesn’t it suck? Pre school children could write a story with less plot holes and bs
Damn you Kathleen Kennedy
Whatever writer that created snoke came up with the perfect villain to reboot the series along with Kylo did it correctly. By just saying "yeah? Snoke?? Hmmmm.. oh he's just a puppet of palpatine forget about him" uh ... Duck that!!!! God dammit 😆 I was so pissed. Snoke was AWESOME and they just dropped him like a hot potato 🥔 😡 also fckrd up Vader's redemption arc.
They had to bring him back because that idiot Ryan Johnson killed snoke for no reason other than "to shock us"
I highly prefer his spree of returns and then his final death, all in the pre-Disney Star Wars chronology.
I can’t agree on Rey getting a modest but sure build up as a nobody, JJ made a conscious (or stoopid?) decision to hype up who she was, allegedly a Kenobi as far as Daisy knew. Rian just came to break the plates and paste them backwards, again screwing up who she was with ambiguous symbolism that could mean nothing at all. Finally she took the Skywalker name when expectation was crushed into apathy.
I don’t accept her as Palpatine since that sounds like mental gymnastics done wrong to cannibalize Trevorrow’s equally dumb “Rey Solana” idea, but also since it ultimately remains pointless if she takes another name anyway, for reasons not even explained on-screen, which in hindsight makes the emperor TWICE as unnecessary to be brought back to life.
Why Disney Sucks!!!
I don't think bringing him back was a problem by itself. The execution was the problem. No one knew how to properly do it!
But
But
But
Its subversive 😂😂😂
*a-a-a-a-a-aversive 😂
lol not a single person called this subversive, I don’t think you know what that word means. It’s the exact opposite of subversive. That’s literally the whole gripe about it.
@HoustonSoto Hes being sarcastic
@HoustonSoto Bro, those movies sucked. Get over it.
"No one," said it was aversive either. 🤓🤓
But who ever did, knew what they were talking about. Thanks to the guy above. That's not Anthony Soto.
THIS IS ABSOLUTE PROOF 💯 THAT DISNEY had no FN idea of what they were DOING !!
Now, whenever any character from any franchise inexplicably comes back, people say they’ve pulled a Palpatine or, “somehow, (insert name) came back.”
SW casuals in the 2010s: "The EU sucked because Palpatine returned"
SW casuals after Disney does it too: "it's good actually"
I don't think those are the same people.
It was a low moment for the EU and Lucasfilm made a mistake releasing it on top of the Thrawn trilogy. But Dark Empire looks genius next to "Somehow".
@@TheChristianPsychopath Agreed, I love Dark Empire. I had no problem with Palpatine being there because it made sense especially with stuff we knew about his powers from other EU novels.
Disney Star Wars is just nonsense through and through.
@@TheChristianPsychopath They gave a good reason why he retuned giving the lore we knew at the time. The Dark Side takes a huge toll on a body, so he has back up bodies when the current one inevitably fails. Makes sense.
@aaronlaughter6471 Lore wise it didn't break plausibly. It was more that they released Dark Empire on top of Heir to the Empire, instead of waiting and letting them build off each other.
Far as I'm concerned, there's a sequel duology, Kylo Ren is still supreme leader and the rebellion is still rebuilding.
Right there with ya. At least the end of TLJ shows that there is balance of good and evil and Luke has inspired the galaxy.
SOME
HOW
Episode fix: a new nope
It cheapens Anakins redemption!
This is why only stick to episodes 1 to 3 Rogue one. and episodes 4 to 6 should not have. Continue with a franchise. As I keep saying, it should have ended with. Return of the jedi
Snoke shouldn't have been related to palpatine in any way. He should have been a more ancient force from beyond the old republic. A former sith that put himself in cryogenic sleep that would become the new menace.
It should have been the return of Plagues but people were anticipating it too much so they wanted to mess with our heads
I fundamentally disagree with almost everything you said. The sequel trilogy isn't even the first time that palpatine was cloned, it happened already it's in the comics.
detailed lore building ;) if it'll make money they'll retcon everything
Palpatine was JJ Abrams desperate attempt to get butts in seats, nothing more
This anticlimactic slap together of a story is more like a bodyslam of our expectations. It picks us up just throw us down. How awfully stupid did they think we are? And how stupid are they to think we are that stupid? No wonder George Lucas is extremely disappointed in these people!
I like the idea of him returning. They just did it stupidly.
He was simply a selling point for the movie. After the last jedi no one cared where the story went, they needed something to draw audiences in, the laugh in the trailer was the only thing selling the movie. For me i only look at lucas's work as the real star wars, this nonsense is just something else that fanboys could have wrote better
The equal is "Kamala lost, somehow" 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
THEY ARE EATING THE PETS!
Win every trilogy it changes whose story the series is. The original trilogy as the story of Luke. The prequels made the series the Story of Anakin/ Darth Vader. With the latest 3 sequels it turned it into the story of Palpatine. Which made no sense.
Personally, I always had a feeling Palpatine would be involved in episode 9 somehow, even before episode 8 came out, it's just felt like something Disney would do, but what I wasn't expecting was HOW they were going to do it... 😑 If I was writing episode 9 and Palpatine HAD to be involved, I would have gone down a psychological route, long story short but only have Kylo Ren see him as a vision, representing how far Ren is in the dark side and since he shares a bond with Rey, she starts seeing him as-well, tempting her to join the dark side, that way he's involved, but not actually back.
You mean like a dark mirror to the Force Ghosts from the original trilogy?
@@Crisis-Comics Yeah! the Clone Wars show did something like that with Darth Bane, a Sith force ghost that was actually a hallucination to test Yoda.
Palpatine could transfer his essence, why couldn’t Darth Plageuis or Anakin Skywalker? Why do only the Sith transfer their essence, and not the Jedi?
Worst of all still modern LucasFilm will continue to live in denial and say this was the right decision
I really liked The Force Awakens and thought it would be the start of a worthy second trilogy. But the second two movies were so bad you can tell the people involved did not give a crap about Star Wars at all.
I dont hate the idea of Palpatine returning. Its how they did it with no set up other than hey look here he is.
And to those that say but it ruins things/character arcs etc
Just like in life not everything has a happy ending. Things happen unexpected things happen. If it makes logical since ie play off Palpatine conversation in the opera scene from ep 3 about how the dark side might allow one to cheat death then so be it
You are WAY over thinking it. The difference is between creativity and greed. Disney is a business to make MONEY. Just slap Star Wars on the title and let the cash flow. Disney doesn’t care about story. They care about profits.
was it confirmed that he's dead back when return of the Jedi was released?
I'll still vote for him.
should have made Snoke a clone of Darth Plagious. should have been Palpatine vs Plagious.
Rey didn't have any character, stuggles or earned victories anyway
Dark Sith Empress Rey Palpatine Skywalker > Rey “Skywalker”.
The movie is over five years old. You're just now making this? And his return was great!!!!
Great video. The whole return of The Emperor was done in the most generic and shallow way. The ending couldn't have been worse. All in a matter of 15 minutes or so they have him be reborn as seemingly more powerful than ever, toy with the Rey and Kylo, begin to bring down the largest rebel fleet ever assembled, only to have a silly, untrained, unlearned girl destroy him in a matter of seconds😳. When I saw her destroy him I gaged🤮. If they planned on bringing him back at least make it grand, big, major! Would have required a sequel but at least made his return somewhat more eventful and legit! ✌🏼💪🏼🙏🏼
Take the franchise out of the hands of Disney & KK, have a decent writer come up with a new villain.
I never even watched the last movie to star was the rise of skywalker. The 8th movie was too bad.
Darth Plagueis should have returned, not Palpatine. Or maybe Darth Bane or Lord Vitiate. Or what about Abeloth? Maybe not the Son of Mortis.
Rey had a character arc?
Palpatine should have made his return at the beginning of the FORCE AWAKENS instead of Snoke. The fans could have gotten beind his return faster
Wow rey had a character arc???
Why should rey be as good as like skywalker and be no one special. That’s utter shit. Much much better being a palpatine
I really hate to say this but Palpatine and Snoke are just plot devices in the original and sequel trilogies. If you remove them from their respective stories nothing really changes, Vader assassinating Palpatine is very satisfying but not ultimately necessary for Vader to defect. Snoke from what I understand was always going to die in the Last Jedi because it was always part of Kylo's story.
The last Jedi messed everything up. N they didn’t where to go from they.
Ill never get over how stupid "somehow palaptine returned" is. No Poe... that is the writers perspect. Are you completely breaking the fourth wall and sitting in the writers room?
You werent there when he died in ROTJ. No one present was. Therefor your perspective would be, "Somehow palpatine SURVIVED". As far as you would know Poe, Palpatines fate was grossly exaggerated, or Luke lied about him going down with the death star. Pretty observant of you to immediately realize this
was a clone. Too observant. I doubt any of those characterd would have the sense to even realize that is what they were dealing with.
Stoopid writers. Equally stoopid characters.
No one wanted him to return.
I hate the return of the Emperor. It sucks.
Palpatine has a deep obsession with immortality both in canon and legends. In legends he follows his own sith ideology reffed as the rule of one which stated that the Sith would be embodied by a sole reigning Dark Lord-Sidious himself-who would live forever as Emperor of the galaxy, having no need to train a replacement, and availing himself solely of capable executors of his will, talented in the Force as dark side agents. Furthermore palpatine in both canon and legends is a master of dark essence to transfer a person's consciousness into another body, or in some cases an inanimate object. He also operated a imperial cloning program to create either an exact Force-sensitive clone or a Force-sensitive strandcast capable of serving as a replacement body for Palpatine, thus allowing him to achieve immortality during the age of the empire. In legends palpatine return ruling over the dark empire.
Tros is so bad I can hardly believe it exists.
OVER A WEEK LATE SQUAD WHERE YOU AT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?