As a home shop DIYer who never does anything commercial and doesn't sell anything to anyone, it's the difference between having a tool and not having a tool. I would LOVE to have a KURT vise. But since my tools don't pay for themselves, I can't justify it.
I have 20 years in the machine shop as a Journeyman Machinist and Class A Tool & Die Maker. I have spent many hours on a surface grinder, grinding things parallel and flat. I found that if you have two surfaces that are warped, I have gotten Plaster of Paris and mixed it pretty thin and poured it on the bed of the surface grinder, then put the part on top of the P of P and worked it in until the high places touched the bed then set back and let the P of P dry completely, then turn on the magnet and surface grind the top of the part flat. The P of P would fill in the high spots from the bottom and when it dried and I turned on the magnet, it didn't move. Then release the magnate, remove the part and clean off all the P of P and lay the ground surface on the bed and grind the other surface parallel. I have found that 99 times out of a 100, this worked to perfection.
I actually worked at the KURT vise plant in the 90's, making D60 vises. The level of quality control was ridiculous. We were actually sent home for days because the castings wouldn't pass the test you showed (under MUCH higher torque) until the foundry figured it out. Even though it was a tough job, it's still the only vise I'll ever use. Money well spent.
Cheap Chinese Junk. I bought a small 3" Chinese Kurt and had to totally rebuild it. It is now one of my most precise vibes but, I had to put the work into it. I also had to send it out to have it put in an oven for curing. It was hours in the oven
3:23: "I am not like other people out there that want to buy things, tear ‘em apart, put ‘em back together again and say ‘hey, they don’t work.’” That's fine. However, if someone with a UA-cam channel accepts an item without paying for it (or at least paying money for it), then reviews that item in a video, you do understand why a viewer would question the honesty of such a review, don't you?
Eric Jensen The thing I like about Ave, other than the humour, is that he exposes the marketing wank for what it is. He hooks up instrumentation and shows you the true specs and how they differ from what's on the box. That is useful information for a consumer. And sometimes he finds out that stuff really is good, like the fluke multimeter made for the chinese market at 1/4 the price of the ones for sale in north america. I have no issue with being negative in a review if it is honest. When you start accepting freebees, which he doesn't do, it really muddies the water. It is a slippery slope. Eventually you will find yourself in a position where you have to put a positive spin on something questionable. You don't need freebees. Don't do it.
That's the dilemma. Some of the other respected channels have been approached by a particular supplier - and offered a choice of goodies. The difference is they have all gone to some effort to make it very clear when they're being themselves and when they are reviewing sponsored kit. It's presented as xxxx gave me this to review and this is what I think. No ridiculous claims or clickbait headlines. The Wrangler who thinks he's a star ... and now this guy have both for some reason chosen to present their sponsored reviews as comparisons called "America vs whoever" or (currently) "Things you should fear the most". Neither discusses or declares "special arrangements" until this sort of shitstorm blows up I don't have a problem with anyone making an honest buck - I don't want the channels I do enjoy becoming part of the shopping channel and spouting sensationalised crap I can't trust.
#Donner panty supplies. It's not the financial aspect - I don't see anyone saying it's wrong to take goods or money when it's made plain that that's what's happening. Whats riling people is the distorted "review", lets take a $660 vice, compare it to a $200 vice - which coincidentally happens to look like a vice therefore must be a counterfeit Kurt cunningly designed by china to bring US manufacturing to it's knees. Then, rather than producing a Kurt to compare the similarities - or indeed compare the winn with the kurt (because he wouldn't dare unfairly distort THAT comparison) ... he sticks with the winn (because it's them that are paying for this farce - either in money or goods). and keeps banging home that the cheaper vice isn't made to the same standards (shock horror!!!) Anyone taking this pantomime as an unbiased genuine review are also gullible enough to think "poor dale" is getting a rough deal. He's getting the clicks and the money rolls in whatever - hence his smug leer.
The Chinese vises also have voids in them and he should have his vise reheated in an oven. My main milling machine vise is a Kurt. My 3" Chinese copy is just used on occasion.
To be fair, China builds what you pay them for. You can get reliable, high quality items from china. If you want, that is. But most people prefer the cheap stuff.
YES, well said. Some people can't understand that. Its a crappy vice, but that's what YOU ORDERED from them. You ask Grizzly or Busybee to only stock $700 vices and then see the vice quality goes up from China mass export.
This is so true. While I'm not a fan of Chinese products I have seen and used some very, very fine Chinese products. The American mindset has changed dramatically in the last 30 years to a throw-away economy. Paying for long-lived anything is passe and consuming more and more has become the new status symbol. The people who get boners manipulating spreadsheets and powerpoint presentations are the decision-makers now. It's all about numbers and nothing else. China has the numbers. They will crush us with those numbers until we get back to basics.
@@sp1nrx I repair home appliances. I have seen the quality of the appliances go way down over the last two decades. Parts that went into appliances were made here in the U.S. 20 years ago. Now almost all of parts are made in china. Hell, whole appliances are bei g made there and exported to here. The stuff is absolute trash. No matter which manufacturer or how much you payed for it. The junk isnt going to last more than 5 years. China, to me, means cheap quality for shit products.
I understand what you were trying to achieve with both videos, and enjoyed them both. That was a really unfair shot at AvE though. I haven't seen every video he's made but I've seen plenty, and never known him to knock a product unfairly. He pretty much calls it like it is.
haha no doubt. Hmm another thing that occured to me. He talked shit about the "over engineered" juice squeeze thing which was built like a tank, and said compromise was the name of the game (via engineering choices), but then trashes engineering compromises when he comes across them. Just funny observations, i guess. He did sure love that glue gun though!
He called the juice squeezer under-engineered. It was a case of "throw more material at the problem" and not "solve the actual problem in an elegant manner". It didn't have any compromises, which is why it cost so much!
Dale. Another thing with castings is ageing. They really need throwing out in the yard to rust and get hot and cold for about a Year before final machining. That is why if you can get hold of old machine tools, they are great not only because of the original ageing before being machined, but also the further ageing over the Years. A bit like Scotch Whisky, the older the better it gets.
That ageing in weather is partly a myth and partly true. Sure, the casting stabilizes once it has been sitting for "ages", but you get better and faster results with proper heat treatment, like aging and stress-free casting.
I have a chinese vice that started out rough but after grinding, deburring, fixing the keyway on the fixed jaw, adding 2 more bolts to fixed jaw and making the anti-lift feature on the moveable jaw nice and flat and smooth, i now have a vice I can use with repeatability :-) Oh yea the vise was only $100 and the knowledge and experience was priceless :-)
So my question is why does it take more time (money) to touch up the cheap one that it took to build the entire Kurt, it seems the comparison should be can you build a comparable vise to the Kurt for less than $600... Obviously, if everyone had a few million to blow on gear we’d all be in better shape as you tend to get what you pay for. I kinda doubt anyone buying a $200 dollar vise is expecting 1/10th accurate, especially when you’d need several hundred thousand or a lot more invested in the rest of the shop to even attempt it...
I admire your tenacity. I used to have a Brown and Sharpe #2 6x18 surface grinder which was automatic grinding except for down feed. I thought I was bored running it for hours on end. Here you are doing it with a manual machine. What a man.
I've been machining in a hobby capacity for a decade now and I still don't think I'm done drilling divots in my Chinese vise. I made yet another one just the other day. I tell myself it improves the aerodynamics.
I do recall a Brazilian race engine builder. Telling that one of his "secrets" was using old pistons to make new ones. His claim was precisely the "baking" process that age/use gave to his components was irreplaceable. That was in the late 70´s. ;-)
Question #2: Shouldn't your final test be done with the vices bolted down?... The way they'd actually be used. What you're actually measuring is the amount of bow in each vice when they're tightened.
Interesting videos in that they quantified the expected differences. I think the Chinese vice would work well for 95% of home machinists. When I was a toolmaker things were milled to a few thousands tolerance and anything required finer went on to be ground. I do wonder if the inaccuracies would be noticed by home machinists. The Chinese vice is appropriate for people with mini mills. I don't see a lot of sense in investing in a vice that cost two thirds the price of the milling machine. In a commercial workshop things are different and budgets are bigger. A good test would be a test piece from each vice milled on the same milling machine. Say a block milled to 4 x 6 x 2 inches
Hi Dale. I just went out and checked my China Vise. When clamping a flat or square vertically I get .001 to .002 play when snugging it down. When I clamping a round bar I got almost .005 play. I am gonna watch this video a couple of times to see if I can make it any better. Thanks Dale. Bill from Seattle!
I have rebuilt the Chinese Kurt and outside of the density of the Chinese iron being porous the vise can be rebuilt to Kurt standards. But it is bad to rebuild a new vise when it should come usable out of the box???⁷ I also ground my vise in the milling machine which, I will be using the vise in, the vise ended up matched to the Mill's table and the spindle.
On another point, just wanted to point out that I find your videos VERY WELL MADE! Many videos are what I would refer to as "Chinese Quality Videos" while your videos are always very well done, concise & informative and what I'd call "American Made Videos"! :) Anyhow, really appreciate what your doing! Keep up the excellent work!
Honestly I far prefer to listen and learn from AvE than to you. Anyone who is willing to say he doesn't know his stuff, has probably never had to wipe away a healthy mixture of grease and blood from off their hands! And anyone who finds him immature or offensive has probably not spent a day in a shop spinning a wrench! I believe that makes my preference understandable.
You have a Kurt. The Chinese vise is a copy of the Kurt. The fair comparison would have been the Kurt vs the copy. Why didn't you do that? And I'm not knocking Winn. I'm fine with a review video in exchange for a free vise as long as you're up front about it. Free product IS payment. All this rationalizing that you (and plenty of other UA-camr creators) do is so transparent. Also, taking shots at another creator is a bad look.
This is exactly why I saved up for a Yost vise, instead of being tempted with Harbor Freight coupons. The differences between USA made 65,000 psi ductile iron vs 10k gray iron is night and day. "Cheese Grade" is a perfect analogy. My HF vise literally failed like a block of cheese does when applying pressure. Just because something is heavy or made of this steel or this iron... does not mean they are the same. Or if the companies care about cost saving vs. quality at any price. It's up to us the consumer to learn about the subtle differences and nuances that go into manufacturing and cost-balance-ratios. Because the companies that are in business to get your money certainly know all the details.
Not sure I understand how grinding the surfaces flat and a more proper angles would have helped with the "kick-up' of your test.. You could place an indicator on bed of the vice and see if it is flexing. Maybe it's something with the pull-down part of the movable jaw.
Out of curiousity, was anything inspected or corrected with the underside of the screw contact? I know that I own a couple of chinese vises and some were very low quality and others were astonishingly great. most of the bad ones were difficult to get fixed up and within usable spec for anything requiring tight tolerances, but big improvements were possible. the lifting issue was one i corrected by cleaning up the underside of the saddle where the bottom plate rides and cleaning up the pull down mechanism when clamping force is applied. i did not use anything scientific except a dial indicator in the spindle for before and after clamping rise results, but i was able to reduce it to about .0015" under my regular clamping force where initially is was .005-.006". wasn't sure if you wanted to correct that any since you already put in the time to regrind everything flat?
I agree with your point that the comparison is fair and your reasons behind that. My extremely low budget shop stretched just buying the cheap Chinese vise, and even though my measurements pretty much agreed with yours it was a serious upgrade in my work holding. For me the cheap stuff makes sense. For any serious or professional machine shop it would be a hard no.
The real moral of the story is "own a surface grinder". Old manual grinders are often dirt cheap. My bro got one with a quality mag chuck for $150 complete because the seller quit using it in favor of modern grinders; I scored six vises (four Kurts, two good older Taiwan clones) for $50 each at an estate sale. After we cleaned them up my bro who got the two Taiwan clones to have a matching pair ground them square and true (standard Kurt overhaul procedure) they work and feel precisely like the Kurts. Eventually I'll match a pair of mine the same way. A production shop won't have time to do that so buying Kurt is convenient, but Kurts are designed to be rebuilt and parts are reasonable. Practical Machinist thread showing how a professional overhauls one. www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/saving-kurt-vise-scrap-bin-161489/
When cast iron cools unevenly or too quickly it will crack. Their problem has to to be that they’re timing the cool down period to the bare minimum to speed production but causes as you mentioned, post production warpage.
So just to add to the fray, I took my old style bridgeport vise. Original BP , and with a tenths indicator did the same test. I am out .0017, so that's better than the knockoff. And this does not have anti lift design. So I am happy, I think I am in an acceptable range right now for my needs.
Well said. I bought a CCVice it was all my budget would stretch to. It will get me some experience with my new milling machine where at first ,exceptional accuracy wont be an issue. They most certainly have a place in most workshops. I suppose as a rooky engineer it should be a project to improve it ,thus fulfilling a raison d’etre. Regards Stuart Bell from England UK.
I didn't notice if you adjusted the moving jaw down force screw in the middle between the 2 vise jaw screw holes. I tend to loosen mine up when I need to get the moving jaw adjusted fast, and snug it up when I need that jaw to stay down.
What is the perpendicularly of the fixed jaw under load on each vise? This is where I was VERY disappointed with the Chinese vise. We had one in the shop, similar clamping set up as you demonstrated, and it was out 0.008" - 0.015" up and down on the fixed jaw! I told my supervisor to get this out of the shop, we tried regrinding and wasting valuable time as well. Great video, thanks!
Just an obesrvation At 5:57 when the magnetic base is applied to the cover of the grinder the safety cover actually moves. Not the best place to base measurements from.
The Mercedes vs. Yugo comparison is invalid for another reason. "Chinese" and "American" aren't brand names. Both are capable of producing either excellent, or poor quality.
@Michael Miller Yeah I got to see some of that stuff from China that didn't make it into the US while in the middle east. It wasn't just garbage but dangerous garbage. Like catch fire and kill people garbage.
Hey I have the same vice and thought about getting a more expensive vice but as a tool and die maker thought about fixing it with what i know. if you re-machine the key way to a tighter tolerance and drop in a 3/4 key. then get new bolts and put about 120lbs of tork on them. That will fix the vice and stop the solid jaw from moving because there was too much clerence in the key way.
Great Video.... I am going to watch it again !!! I am new to milling, I have a low price 3" vise for my HF Mini mill.... at 20:00 you use a torque wrench .... about what ft lbs, or in. lbs. should I use on a 3" mill vise ? First time I used it never felt it got tight, second time I use it never felt to get tight, 3rd time fixed Jaw came off... stripped the 2 hold down bolts, I was easy on it, I am 70, have used many vises over the last 60 years, I know how to care for my tools. Thanks again for a great video.... Yes for home use, I don't need a $1,000 vise on a $700 mill.
The thinly veiled shot at Ave is not called for. Ave does not call himself a master machinist. He is an educated shop guy who can do a little of everything, and has shared his knowledge and encouraged many, to try and do something. He has a great sense of humor, and is honest. I loved your bit when you showed the making the curved handle on the lathe using it like you would a wood lathe. So thank you for teaching me something, but no need to knock someone like Ave.
One of the ways that Kurt keeps the moveable jaw from kicking up under load is by putting a couple of o-rings below it to give it some spring. This allows the ball mechanism (ang-lock, their main patent) to pull the jaw down and pull the part *down*, not up. One of the main ways the imports cheap out is by skipping something like that. You could have removed more of the part lift by cutting the mounts for a set of o-rings into that jaw. Maybe 20 minutes of time on the mill to use a 1/2" center cutting end mill and maybe $0.10 worth of o-rings straight from Kurt. It's all well and good to point out that it costs time and money to make that vise better than it came from the factory, but there's working smarter, not harder too.
You guys need some thicker skin. I liked both videos and learned a lot. As for Ave, he strikes me as a guy that would laugh at the comment and move on. I hardly think he needs people to defend him. In fact I didn't even see the comment as a diss on him. Dale, keep at it. Learning to fix a cheap vice when you don't have enough money to buy an expensive vice is a good skill for those struggling to do good work on a budget.
You didn't really get it, did you? " Learning to fix a cheap vice when you don't have enough money to buy an expensive vice is a good skill for those struggling to do good work on a budget." No money to buy a proper vise, but you do have a few grand for a proper surface grinder? Or a few hunderd for diamond stones?
Torque wrench is nice, but did you actually check to see what the pitch on those screws were? I'm pretty sure that they are not the same, hence the force applied to the jaws is quite different with the same torque setting.
I really enjoy your videos. They never fail to educate me. You would make a good instructor.....well, perhaps you were......Every video you've made has always been worth my time.
when grinding the base shimming is needed if the part rocks but this part weighs enough that the magnet is not needed when taking light grinding cuts . I also prefer a electro magnetic chuck when grinding it allows mag force to be adjusted just enough to hold the part down without distorting your part
The deflection of the block depends on the pressure of its two sides. The torque is just the same on their screws. In order to measure the TRUE difference between them, the difference between the screws in the two vises may be needed.
kinof wondering where the 4/10th difference comes from if its indeed the metal casting bending up (could check the straightness of the bottom of the vice with the piece clamped in and torqued down if its holow its he back casting bending ) or the movable jaw lifting up (if its not the back see if the top of the movable jaw is still level or climbing up ) you might get it better by deleting the play between the parts
People, we are not talking about a blender when we are talking about a vise for a mill. It has to be precise, and rigid, and repeatable, prevent lifting when tightened, and if possible dampen vibration. If it doesn't the parts you make with it will be crap. This vise is too heavy to be used as a drill press vise in some guys back shed. It's designed for a knee mill at minimum or even a machining center. Problem is it isn't precise enough for my table saw let alone my machining center which is trammed out at less than .0001 inches.
That’s a pretty good comparison!! You sold me on the American vice! With your grinder, you can pull the handle of the chuck to halfway and it will still hold a large piece but won’t distort it as much. It’s not as good as a variable magnet but it helps.
DSCKy your panty fetish may yet be your downfall. I fail to understand why people don't get wadded when someone is looking them in the eye while distorting the facts like this. Do you give your money away so easily?
I've already explained my point, I'm not alone in seeing the tactics read the comments - If you can't follow the arguments there's not much point in repeating them. Stick with the panty fetish though I'm sure you'll make new friends, maybe start your own channel, get religion. To the innocent all things are possible.
Now this is what I wanted to see. I knew that the Kurt and the knockoff weren't the same, but could it be made the same? The answer you provided made sense with the casting problem. I enjoy the comparisons, and the solutions to any problems as well as the WHY factor.
@@BuildSomthingCool to start with use an angle plate instead of that undersized vise that you used to square things, then reevaluate your sequence of grinding events.
Very well done on the regrind and the proof of where the quality is. Now do you want to trade that Chinese vise for my Chinese vise? 😁 I have one that is very similar.
I have a Kurt D675 and a Chinese no-name clone I purchased about 20 years ago. For both, the amount of ‘lift’ you get on the moveable jaw depends on how you adjust the setscrew on the moveable jaw. The clone slightly outperforms the Kurt in every respect, and its castings have much better finish than the one in your video, Dale. It’s wrong to lump all China made vises together. Unfortunately, many people purchase their clones sight unseen. I bought mine from a machinery dealer, so I was able to inspect it before buying. I bought the Kurt last year, mostly to see if it would be a step up. YMMV.
We actually did this in a place I used to work and got similar results. But, if I remember correctly, the bed heights no longer met the standard 2.875". So, they could only be used by themselves.
Even if you improve the geometry of an inexpensive vise, you can't change the material it is made out of. Besides the elasticity differences between different types of cast iron, durability is an issue. A new vise looks good but cheaper cast irons can't be hardened so they'll wear prematurely.
Dale, your channel is great and I appreciate all the informative content it has and the time you've taken to make the videos. Firing shots at AvE was unnecessary IMO. In terms of the Chinese vise pretending to be a Kurt, can the case not be made that the Kurt design is simply a proven design that everyone copies? There are a lot of similarities between cell phones these days but you can't really say that a cell phone manufacturer is trying to pass their phones off as iPhones just because they might look the same. The title of the video was ultimately what wasn't tasteful. It should have been more factual like: Cheap Chinese Vise vs Expensive USA Vise. The audience doesn't really need the insult of being presented as being unable to discern that a cheap $200 vise isn't as good as an $800 Kurt. Also, was the cheap Chinese vise used? It certainly looks well-worn. The real challenge, I thought, would be to compare vises of equivalent cost to see what the value propositions are in that case. Does a $600 Chinese vise provide additional value over a $600 USA vise? Hopefully, everyone will live and learn and we'll do better next time...
I think the thing I miss more is what business value the Kurt Vise gives over the Chinese vise. What is it that you can produce on the Kurt Vise that you cannot produce on the Chinese one? OP1 sets the dimensioning on the top face, and if you use soft jaws for OP2 then the dimension is set there.
@@jenspetersen5865 Without doing several hundred dollars worth of work to make the Chinese vise work the way a vise should what you can' t make with the Chinese vise out of the box that you can with the Kurt is accurate work.
@@LordPadriac I am sorry but it is an absolutely worthless answer, without a definition of what "accurate work" is. If there is something that US manufacturing is NOT known for, it is accurate work. If ex. tour OP2 is in softjaws., then any incaccuracy stemming from the wise would be negated. It would be helpfull with an actual answer!
I agree 100%. I saw your first video and was thinking if you were machining something that required precision you could ruin parts rather fast and cost yourself way more than you save with just one rejected part... or if you do not catch it, possible cost you way more do to an upset customer. The thought of losing a contract from a big client because you cheaped out on the tools would keep me up at night. I saw the first video and agreed with you 100%. I paint for a living. I can get what most people call good brushes for $6. The average beginner would likely do fine painting with these cheaper brushes. For me they loose their tip within hours of good use and become completely useless after a few days for anything but rough work. Jumping up to a Winsor & Newton Series 7 Miniature Round #1 for $18 is worth it. They are made from the Kolinsky Sable fur collected from a weasel in Russia. It is a restricted fur... not banned, but it can be a pain to import it. The brushes are made in England and not in the US so they are fine. These brushes will last me at least 20x longer. I'm sorry, but 20x longer for 3x the cost is WELL WORTH it. Besides working with better materials not only saves me time, but makes me produce better products. If I could get a brush that lasted a year I would be willingly pay $100 a brush.
Dale, I've seen your videos pop up on suggestions but this was the first time I watched one. Excellent quality and very informative. I always thought you can upgrade your every badly made chinese versions to good ones, but apparently not. Subbed!
Why not compare your $600 US made vice to other import $600 vices. This would be a far better measure of the quality and accuracy you proclaim to want. The Mercedes to Yugo example may be slightly incorrect, but the price variance isn't dissimilar.
I just purchased 4 Kurt vises.......VERY happy they will arrive ready to work. I did, however, learn some toolmaker techniques. Makes me want to go buy a surface grinder just for fun.
$650.oo for a KURT,sound well worth it to me... The idea you had allot of fun making the Chinesium unit squared / paralleled up or tried to, anyway, is understood, for your video content, but, to consider how much time one hour of time is worth, as per, the skilled machinist's at KURT is, it is worth to me, for the never failing product line. I have no issue, and gladly spend my money on the KURT units, and I like the idea, that my money is feeding the work force at KURT, I am sure the families their like to put food on their tables while raising a family. I am glad you mentioned the time and what one hour of a skilled work force is worth, for a fine product, as to not under-cut the American working families. Fun video to watch, though, Keep at it.
So what if you make a hardened metal base for the vice to increase it's rigidity? Add back those 12 pounds of metal! BTW, if clamping warps your vice that much I wonder if it will also warp the mill table it's mounted to? Possibly increase the dovetail wear and binding?
What I meant was a plate to go under the vice, probably clamped to it by plenty of screws, to stiffen the base up. That is assuming the flex of the base is really the significant source of error here. But I assume it's a good thing if the base relies less on the rigidity of the mill table, as it means less flex of the mill table.
Great video! I actually thought about doing this to my overseas 3" Kurt clone but I thought it would still flex as did yours. Keep these great vids coming!
Thanks for the video Have just bought a grinder and this video is very useful Your comment of how much your time is worth is very true I always regret bargain purchases
There are some things that I don't mind having cheap tools. However, when I need constancy, repeatability and accuracy and where I am using a tool frequently it is worth spending $$$>
Considering how much value there is in this guy's effort for those of us who do not yet know everything there is to know about machining I am surprised about the negative comments. I just wonder why you bother to come here?
Tom, by your own admission you're learning so perhaps that explains your surprise - I'd suggest the first research you undertake should be to discern the difference between s**t and shinola because buddy, that's why your shoes don't shine. As to the value of his effort - it's purely for his personal gain actual value as a review = $0. Don't take any (more) wooden nickels.
If you want to learn a bit about machining and tooling watch stefan gotteswinter, abom79 or this old tony. This guy did not properly square the stock and metrology was pretty atrocious to be honest. I am not here to say all Chinese goods are great because most are not, but the two videos of his that I have see are even worse.
There's no way that table you were sliding the dial gauge base on was 100% zero .. I would like to see the USA vise apart and the dial gauge slid across that table to see if it is 0 ...
Speak your mind, Sir! When you compare one thing to another in a plain view it puts things out there for everyone to see and nothing is hidden. What ever someone else says about your presentation is his/her decision, but I do understand that sometimes it hurts because you in, full fairness, did not think that such a critique would be necessary. Keep up the good job! Who wants to learn something from you will do, those who always argue will argue anyway. Thank for posting.
I like this video more than the last because its not really bashing the vise but you are making comparison of quality, still it was a cheap shot at AvE, he has shown that even the most expensive tools make compromises, that some cheaper tools are worth it but more importantly that it takes someone taking it apart and seeing how its made to see which companies make the best compromises for the $$$, like he said he is partial to Snap-On but its not the best bang for the buck, and I love that now I know Makita engineers know where to use what components and what processes to make a high quality yet affordable tool. Keep up the good work.
Regarding your grinding setup, you should have first put it the way side down, as that had the dish in it, making it very easy to shim from one corner and from the middle for support. Clamp, grind flat, flip it and grind flat. As for shims, nothing beats a stack of paper next to the grinder. Shove paper under the gap, tear off and shove another.
Nice video. I do not understand why the clamping did not improve. Is the ramp for the clamp nut smooth? I filed mine and the lift clamp was much better. Thanks for both video's, I enjoyed each of them. I have the chinese vice but this just helps me with desire for the Kurt.
Great work. I’m not sure witch part I liked the most “ the trying to make a good vice for a bad vice “ or “ fixing all the bad grinding “ thinks for sharing.
I completely agree with your assessment that China is trying to sell you a look-alike at half the cost. And in my experience working with China companies is that the raw material costs are basically the same, but they save about 50% on the labor with the remaining processes.
just found you. love your way of explaining things. I'm just thinking of getting a small mill/drill for my shop. Of course I'm not a machinist I'm a Dentist, so for what you do I'm just a idiot wanting to do some stuff but can't afford or have the room for a Knee mill.I know they have specs like the Chinese vise, but this does show me what kind of vise is good and which ones are not. Hope to learn more watching your vids. thank you for taking the time to do them.
The dig to ave is uncalled for. It's just like the example, Ave is not trying to say he is a master builder, or the Mercedes car, his function is to show us what's going in under the hood, what will go wrong and what is good. You in the other hand, show us cool things and go in to excited new products. It's not a comparison because like the vises, two different types of content, with two different goals. I love both channels, and will keep watching both.
He’s just butt-hurt because he’s decided to sell out and become a corporate shill like the rest. Gotta take a shot at the guy who refuses to fall in line..and calls out the bullshit.
As a home shop DIYer who never does anything commercial and doesn't sell anything to anyone, it's the difference between having a tool and not having a tool. I would LOVE to have a KURT vise. But since my tools don't pay for themselves, I can't justify it.
I have 20 years in the machine shop as a Journeyman Machinist and Class A Tool & Die Maker. I have spent many hours on a surface grinder, grinding things parallel and flat. I found that if you have two surfaces that are warped, I have gotten Plaster of Paris and mixed it pretty thin and poured it on the bed of the surface grinder, then put the part on top of the P of P and worked it in until the high places touched the bed then set back and let the P of P dry completely, then turn on the magnet and surface grind the top of the part flat. The P of P would fill in the high spots from the bottom and when it dried and I turned on the magnet, it didn't move. Then release the magnate, remove the part and clean off all the P of P and lay the ground surface on the bed and grind the other surface parallel. I have found that 99 times out of a 100, this worked to perfection.
Great method!
I actually worked at the KURT vise plant in the 90's, making D60 vises. The level of quality control was ridiculous. We were actually sent home for days because the castings wouldn't pass the test you showed (under MUCH higher torque) until the foundry figured it out. Even though it was a tough job, it's still the only vise I'll ever use. Money well spent.
Cheap Chinese Junk. I bought a small 3" Chinese Kurt and had to totally rebuild it. It is now one of my most precise vibes but, I had to put the work into it. I also had to send it out to have it put in an oven for curing. It was hours in the oven
3:23: "I am not like other people out there that want to buy things, tear ‘em apart, put ‘em back together again and say ‘hey, they don’t work.’”
That's fine. However, if someone with a UA-cam channel accepts an item without paying for it (or at least paying money for it), then reviews that item in a video, you do understand why a viewer would question the honesty of such a review, don't you?
Eric Jensen The thing I like about Ave, other than the humour, is that he exposes the marketing wank for what it is. He hooks up instrumentation and shows you the true specs and how they differ from what's on the box. That is useful information for a consumer. And sometimes he finds out that stuff really is good, like the fluke multimeter made for the chinese market at 1/4 the price of the ones for sale in north america. I have no issue with being negative in a review if it is honest. When you start accepting freebees, which he doesn't do, it really muddies the water. It is a slippery slope. Eventually you will find yourself in a position where you have to put a positive spin on something questionable. You don't need freebees. Don't do it.
That's the dilemma. Some of the other respected channels have been approached by a particular supplier - and offered a choice of goodies. The difference is they have all gone to some effort to make it very clear when they're being themselves and when they are reviewing sponsored kit.
It's presented as xxxx gave me this to review and this is what I think. No ridiculous claims or clickbait headlines. The Wrangler who thinks he's a star ... and now this guy have both for some reason chosen to present their sponsored reviews as comparisons called "America vs whoever" or (currently) "Things you should fear the most". Neither discusses or declares "special arrangements" until this sort of shitstorm blows up
I don't have a problem with anyone making an honest buck - I don't want the channels I do enjoy becoming part of the shopping channel and spouting sensationalised crap I can't trust.
#Donner panty supplies. It's not the financial aspect - I don't see anyone saying it's wrong to take goods or money when it's made plain that that's what's happening.
Whats riling people is the distorted "review", lets take a $660 vice, compare it to a $200 vice - which coincidentally happens to look like a vice therefore must be a counterfeit Kurt cunningly designed by china to bring US manufacturing to it's knees.
Then, rather than producing a Kurt to compare the similarities - or indeed compare the winn with the kurt (because he wouldn't dare unfairly distort THAT comparison) ... he sticks with the winn (because it's them that are paying for this farce - either in money or goods). and keeps banging home that the cheaper vice isn't made to the same standards (shock horror!!!)
Anyone taking this pantomime as an unbiased genuine review are also gullible enough to think "poor dale" is getting a rough deal.
He's getting the clicks and the money rolls in whatever - hence his smug leer.
Eric Jensen most reveiws are bull shit
American Man: "Damn, those Chinese make crappy stuff."
Chinese Man: "Damn, those Americans will buy any kind of crap."
true that "cheap an cheerful"
This stupid Finn: "Why cast iron when you can buy modular wise made of steel?" No, it ain't cheap. But it's good 👍🏼💪🏼!
Grinding the vise will not reduce the amount the part rises during clamping, but adjusting the angle lock feature will...
I'm surprised a guy this well equipped didn't realize that. He didn't even mention the lift mechanism
The Chinese vises also have voids in them and he should have his vise reheated in an oven. My main milling machine vise is a Kurt. My 3" Chinese copy is just used on occasion.
To be fair, China builds what you pay them for.
You can get reliable, high quality items from china. If you want, that is.
But most people prefer the cheap stuff.
YES, well said. Some people can't understand that. Its a crappy vice, but that's what YOU ORDERED from them. You ask Grizzly or Busybee to only stock $700 vices and then see the vice quality goes up from China mass export.
This is so true. While I'm not a fan of Chinese products I have seen and used some very, very fine Chinese products. The American mindset has changed dramatically in the last 30 years to a throw-away economy. Paying for long-lived anything is passe and consuming more and more has become the new status symbol.
The people who get boners manipulating spreadsheets and powerpoint presentations are the decision-makers now. It's all about numbers and nothing else. China has the numbers. They will crush us with those numbers until we get back to basics.
@@sp1nrx I repair home appliances. I have seen the quality of the appliances go way down over the last two decades. Parts that went into appliances were made here in the U.S. 20 years ago. Now almost all of parts are made in china. Hell, whole appliances are bei g made there and exported to here. The stuff is absolute trash. No matter which manufacturer or how much you payed for it. The junk isnt going to last more than 5 years. China, to me, means cheap quality for shit products.
I have seen this, but you have to be there and point your finger.
paid
I understand what you were trying to achieve with both videos, and enjoyed them both. That was a really unfair shot at AvE though. I haven't seen every video he's made but I've seen plenty, and never known him to knock a product unfairly. He pretty much calls it like it is.
Barry Manilowa so what if he is?
Barry Manilowa lol no, but he IS one of my favorite UA-camrs! :-)
I like AvE, but ho-ly shite his entire schtick has become twisting metal until it breaks. I'm hoping he gets back to more interesting stuff.
haha no doubt.
Hmm another thing that occured to me. He talked shit about the "over engineered" juice squeeze thing which was built like a tank, and said compromise was the name of the game (via engineering choices), but then trashes engineering compromises when he comes across them.
Just funny observations, i guess. He did sure love that glue gun though!
He called the juice squeezer under-engineered. It was a case of "throw more material at the problem" and not "solve the actual problem in an elegant manner". It didn't have any compromises, which is why it cost so much!
Dale. Another thing with castings is ageing. They really need throwing out in the yard to rust and get hot and cold for about a Year before final machining. That is why if you can get hold of old machine tools, they are great not only because of the original ageing before being machined, but also the further ageing over the Years. A bit like Scotch Whisky, the older the better it gets.
Dave Ticehurst BMW used old engine blocks for their turbo F1 engines back in the 80s because of that reason
+jonnoMoto was thinking the exact same thing!
That ageing in weather is partly a myth and partly true. Sure, the casting stabilizes once it has been sitting for "ages", but you get better and faster results with proper heat treatment, like aging and stress-free casting.
@@JaakkoF Finally someone telling the real story on the aging myth.
I have a chinese vice that started out rough but after grinding, deburring, fixing the keyway on the fixed jaw, adding 2 more bolts to fixed jaw and making the anti-lift feature on the moveable jaw nice and flat and smooth, i now have a vice I can use with repeatability :-)
Oh yea the vise was only $100 and the knowledge and experience was priceless :-)
Nate Van Bynen i have one of these vices, sorry three, and they all suffer from lift???
So my question is why does it take more time (money) to touch up the cheap one that it took to build the entire Kurt, it seems the comparison should be can you build a comparable vise to the Kurt for less than $600... Obviously, if everyone had a few million to blow on gear we’d all be in better shape as you tend to get what you pay for. I kinda doubt anyone buying a $200 dollar vise is expecting 1/10th accurate, especially when you’d need several hundred thousand or a lot more invested in the rest of the shop to even attempt it...
I admire your tenacity. I used to have a Brown and Sharpe #2 6x18 surface grinder which was automatic grinding except for down feed. I thought I was bored running it for hours on end. Here you are doing it with a manual machine. What a man.
I've been machining in a hobby capacity for a decade now and I still don't think I'm done drilling divots in my Chinese vise. I made yet another one just the other day. I tell myself it improves the aerodynamics.
No safety glasses touching off a running grinder at 7:40, BRUTAL... you would be fired on the spot at my shop.
I visited a US tool maker many years ago. They put the castings outside for 1-2 years before they machined them.
Was just about to type this into the comments 👍
why ? is there a problem if machine them soon ?
Huh! I learned something today! Never knew, thanks for the factoid! ::seriously, no snark, very interesting::
I do recall a Brazilian race engine builder. Telling that one of his "secrets" was using old pistons to make new ones. His claim was precisely the "baking" process that age/use gave to his components was irreplaceable. That was in the late 70´s. ;-)
Question #2: Shouldn't your final test be done with the vices bolted down?... The way they'd actually be used.
What you're actually measuring is the amount of bow in each vice when they're tightened.
The only time AvE reviewed a product of an entrepreneur he didn't break it down but gave constructive feedback about it.
Don't forget the custom screwdriver he ordered. He loves that thing
AvE?
@@poppaluv
Yes the greatest Canuck ever
@@poppaluv wow must be nice to discover Ave all over again... Lol. Look him up,
Interesting videos in that they quantified the expected differences. I think the Chinese vice would work well for 95% of home machinists. When I was a toolmaker things were milled to a few thousands tolerance and anything required finer went on to be ground. I do wonder if the inaccuracies would be noticed by home machinists. The Chinese vice is appropriate for people with mini mills. I don't see a lot of sense in investing in a vice that cost two thirds the price of the milling machine. In a commercial workshop things are different and budgets are bigger.
A good test would be a test piece from each vice milled on the same milling machine. Say a block milled to 4 x 6 x 2 inches
Les Fackrell would love to see that too
You get what you pay for. That’s why I don’t follow the logic of these sorta videos. Just like japan China also has professional brands.
@@professordrmao6321 i bought a $3500 chinese vice
That was a bad time
Those Chinese precision vises are the best money/quality I’ve ever spent.
Great video Dale, You just proved once again that you get what you pay for! Thanks for taking the time and effort!
Thanks for your comment my friend
You needed proof? Did the shot at AvE help you with hat realization? Thanks - Lumpy
Great video, Dale. I love this kind of videos where people buy cheap tools and improve them far beyond their original state.
Hi Dale. I just went out and checked my China Vise. When clamping a flat or square vertically I get .001 to .002 play when snugging it down. When I clamping a round bar I got almost .005 play. I am gonna watch this video a couple of times to see if I can make it any better. Thanks Dale.
Bill from Seattle!
Well Dale since you are 1400 USD in to the wise can you do the same test when both are bolted down if it will not be so much of a trouble.
I have rebuilt the Chinese Kurt and outside of the density of the Chinese iron being porous the vise can be rebuilt to Kurt standards. But it is bad to rebuild a new vise when it should come usable out of the box???⁷ I also ground my vise in the milling machine which, I will be using the vise in, the vise ended up matched to the Mill's table and the spindle.
On another point, just wanted to point out that I find your videos VERY WELL MADE!
Many videos are what I would refer to as "Chinese Quality Videos"
while your videos are always very well done, concise & informative and what I'd call
"American Made Videos"! :)
Anyhow, really appreciate what your doing! Keep up the excellent work!
+Orbitter1 LOL! Thank you so much. This might be one of my favorite compliments I’ve ever gotten on my channel. :). Thanks for watching!
Honestly I far prefer to listen and learn from AvE than to you. Anyone who is willing to say he doesn't know his stuff, has probably never had to wipe away a healthy mixture of grease and blood from off their hands! And anyone who finds him immature or offensive has probably not spent a day in a shop spinning a wrench! I believe that makes my preference understandable.
Amen! Dont know how skookum something is until you wipe the schmoo away.
You have a Kurt. The Chinese vise is a copy of the Kurt. The fair comparison would have been the Kurt vs the copy. Why didn't you do that?
And I'm not knocking Winn. I'm fine with a review video in exchange for a free vise as long as you're up front about it. Free product IS payment. All this rationalizing that you (and plenty of other UA-camr creators) do is so transparent. Also, taking shots at another creator is a bad look.
"Also, taking shots at another creator is a bad look" almost as bad of a look as when people say something "is a bad look".
@@xcvsdxvsx there's a difference between baselessly insulting someone and providing constructive criticism.
I have three copies of Kurt made in china. I hope the Kurt works better.
This is exactly why I saved up for a Yost vise, instead of being tempted with Harbor Freight coupons. The differences between USA made 65,000 psi ductile iron vs 10k gray iron is night and day. "Cheese Grade" is a perfect analogy. My HF vise literally failed like a block of cheese does when applying pressure.
Just because something is heavy or made of this steel or this iron... does not mean they are the same. Or if the companies care about cost saving vs. quality at any price. It's up to us the consumer to learn about the subtle differences and nuances that go into manufacturing and cost-balance-ratios. Because the companies that are in business to get your money certainly know all the details.
Not sure I understand how grinding the surfaces flat and a more proper angles would have helped with the "kick-up' of your test.. You could place an indicator on bed of the vice and see if it is flexing. Maybe it's something with the pull-down part of the movable jaw.
Love your channel Dale, keep the videos coming!
If you grind it down, how do you realign the feed screw and its nut? Wouldn't the nut be too low?
Out of curiousity, was anything inspected or corrected with the underside of the screw contact? I know that I own a couple of chinese vises and some were very low quality and others were astonishingly great. most of the bad ones were difficult to get fixed up and within usable spec for anything requiring tight tolerances, but big improvements were possible. the lifting issue was one i corrected by cleaning up the underside of the saddle where the bottom plate rides and cleaning up the pull down mechanism when clamping force is applied. i did not use anything scientific except a dial indicator in the spindle for before and after clamping rise results, but i was able to reduce it to about .0015" under my regular clamping force where initially is was .005-.006". wasn't sure if you wanted to correct that any since you already put in the time to regrind everything flat?
I agree with your point that the comparison is fair and your reasons behind that. My extremely low budget shop stretched just buying the cheap Chinese vise, and even though my measurements pretty much agreed with yours it was a serious upgrade in my work holding.
For me the cheap stuff makes sense. For any serious or professional machine shop it would be a hard no.
Video starts at 3:45. Other than that, I learned a lot about toolmaking
The real moral of the story is "own a surface grinder". Old manual grinders are often dirt cheap. My bro got one with a quality mag chuck for $150 complete because the seller quit using it in favor of modern grinders; I scored six vises (four Kurts, two good older Taiwan clones) for $50 each at an estate sale. After we cleaned them up my bro who got the two Taiwan clones to have a matching pair ground them square and true (standard Kurt overhaul procedure) they work and feel precisely like the Kurts. Eventually I'll match a pair of mine the same way.
A production shop won't have time to do that so buying Kurt is convenient, but Kurts are designed to be rebuilt and parts are reasonable. Practical Machinist thread showing how a professional overhauls one. www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/saving-kurt-vise-scrap-bin-161489/
When cast iron cools unevenly or too quickly it will crack. Their problem has to to be that they’re timing the cool down period to the bare minimum to speed production but causes as you mentioned, post production warpage.
So just to add to the fray, I took my old style bridgeport vise. Original BP , and with a tenths indicator did the same test. I am out .0017, so that's better than the knockoff. And this does not have anti lift design. So I am happy, I think I am in an acceptable range right now for my needs.
Well said. I bought a CCVice it was all my budget would stretch to. It will get me some experience with my new milling machine where at first ,exceptional accuracy wont be an issue. They most certainly have a place in most workshops. I suppose as a rooky engineer it should be a project to improve it ,thus fulfilling a raison d’etre. Regards Stuart Bell from England UK.
I didn't notice if you adjusted the moving jaw down force screw in the middle between the 2 vise jaw screw holes. I tend to loosen mine up when I need to get the moving jaw adjusted fast, and snug it up when I need that jaw to stay down.
Your torque wrench will like you much better if you use a breaker bar instead of the torque wrench for loosening things
What is the perpendicularly of the fixed jaw under load on each vise? This is where I was VERY disappointed with the Chinese vise. We had one in the shop, similar clamping set up as you demonstrated, and it was out 0.008" - 0.015" up and down on the fixed jaw! I told my supervisor to get this out of the shop, we tried regrinding and wasting valuable time as well. Great video, thanks!
I had a lot of questions and doubts until you made your final statements thank you for your honesty
Just an obesrvation At 5:57 when the magnetic base is applied to the cover of the grinder the safety cover actually moves. Not the best place to base measurements from.
Please bring back the old Metal Tips and Tricks.
The Mercedes vs. Yugo comparison is invalid for another reason. "Chinese" and "American" aren't brand names. Both are capable of producing either excellent, or poor quality.
What is china producing thats good?
@Michael Miller Yeah I got to see some of that stuff from China that didn't make it into the US while in the middle east. It wasn't just garbage but dangerous garbage. Like catch fire and kill people garbage.
Hey I have the same vice and thought about getting a more expensive vice but as a tool and die maker thought about fixing it with what i know. if you re-machine the key way to a tighter tolerance and drop in a 3/4 key. then get new bolts and put about 120lbs of tork on them. That will fix the vice and stop the solid jaw from moving because there was too much clerence in the key way.
ahh forgot to ask how did you fit that imperial toque wrench to a metric vice as that was a big problem for you in the fist video
Great Video.... I am going to watch it again !!! I am new to milling, I have a low price 3" vise for my HF Mini mill.... at 20:00 you use a torque wrench .... about what ft lbs, or in. lbs. should I use on a 3" mill vise ? First time I used it never felt it got tight, second time I use it never felt to get tight, 3rd time fixed Jaw came off... stripped the 2 hold down bolts, I was easy on it, I am 70, have used many vises over the last 60 years, I know how to care for my tools. Thanks again for a great video.... Yes for home use, I don't need a $1,000 vise on a $700 mill.
The thinly veiled shot at Ave is not called for. Ave does not call himself a master machinist. He is an educated shop guy who can do a little of everything, and has shared his knowledge and encouraged many, to try and do something. He has a great sense of humor, and is honest. I loved your bit when you showed the making the curved handle on the lathe using it like you would a wood lathe. So thank you for teaching me something, but no need to knock someone like Ave.
Yes never insult the one who's face can not be revealed.
One of the ways that Kurt keeps the moveable jaw from kicking up under load is by putting a couple of o-rings below it to give it some spring. This allows the ball mechanism (ang-lock, their main patent) to pull the jaw down and pull the part *down*, not up. One of the main ways the imports cheap out is by skipping something like that. You could have removed more of the part lift by cutting the mounts for a set of o-rings into that jaw. Maybe 20 minutes of time on the mill to use a 1/2" center cutting end mill and maybe $0.10 worth of o-rings straight from Kurt. It's all well and good to point out that it costs time and money to make that vise better than it came from the factory, but there's working smarter, not harder too.
You guys need some thicker skin. I liked both videos and learned a lot. As for Ave, he strikes me as a guy that would laugh at the comment and move on. I hardly think he needs people to defend him. In fact I didn't even see the comment as a diss on him. Dale, keep at it. Learning to fix a cheap vice when you don't have enough money to buy an expensive vice is a good skill for those struggling to do good work on a budget.
You didn't really get it, did you?
" Learning to fix a cheap vice when you don't have enough money to buy an expensive vice is a good skill for those struggling to do good work on a budget."
No money to buy a proper vise, but you do have a few grand for a proper surface grinder? Or a few hunderd for diamond stones?
Well Hell Dale I liked your two videos and I like the fact you tried to fix the cheaper vice.
Torque wrench is nice, but did you actually check to see what the pitch on those screws were? I'm pretty sure that they are not the same, hence the force applied to the jaws is quite different with the same torque setting.
I really enjoy your videos. They never fail to educate me. You would make a good instructor.....well, perhaps you were......Every video you've made has always been worth my time.
when grinding the base shimming is needed if the part rocks but this part weighs enough that the magnet is not needed when taking light grinding cuts . I also prefer a electro magnetic chuck when grinding it allows mag force to be adjusted just enough to hold the part down without distorting your part
Brilliant piece of work. 12 hours and a conclusion on why it does not perform as well. Keep smilin'
The deflection of the block depends on the pressure of its two sides. The torque is just the same on their screws. In order to measure the TRUE difference between them, the difference between the screws in the two vises may be needed.
kinof wondering where the 4/10th difference comes from if its indeed the metal casting bending up (could check the straightness of the bottom of the vice with the piece clamped in and torqued down if its holow its he back casting bending ) or the movable jaw lifting up (if its not the back see if the top of the movable jaw is still level or climbing up )
you might get it better by deleting the play between the parts
i love surface grinder machines! its highly scientific correct medhod for making surfaces flatter and flatter.
People, we are not talking about a blender when we are talking about a vise for a mill. It has to be precise, and rigid, and repeatable, prevent lifting when tightened, and if possible dampen vibration. If it doesn't the parts you make with it will be crap. This vise is too heavy to be used as a drill press vise in some guys back shed. It's designed for a knee mill at minimum or even a machining center. Problem is it isn't precise enough for my table saw let alone my machining center which is trammed out at less than .0001 inches.
Both videos where great thanks for in depth review.
That’s a pretty good comparison!! You sold me on the American vice!
With your grinder, you can pull the handle of the chuck to halfway and it will still hold a large piece but won’t distort it as much. It’s not as good as a variable magnet but it helps.
I wish this channel didn't get so much hate. I had no problem with the last video, and none with this one either. Keep up the great work
Yea, not sure why anyone would get their panties in a wad over this? :)
DSCKy your panty fetish may yet be your downfall.
I fail to understand why people don't get wadded when someone is looking them in the eye while distorting the facts like this. Do you give your money away so easily?
What facts did he distort? He was upfront that the one vice was a freebee. He showed you the measurements. They speak for themselves?
I've already explained my point, I'm not alone in seeing the tactics read the comments - If you can't follow the arguments there's not much point in repeating them. Stick with the panty fetish though I'm sure you'll make new friends, maybe start your own channel, get religion. To the innocent all things are possible.
Now this is what I wanted to see. I knew that the Kurt and the knockoff weren't the same, but could it be made the same? The answer you provided made sense with the casting problem. I enjoy the comparisons, and the solutions to any problems as well as the WHY factor.
either get a Kurt and compare it to the clone or get a similar value shill vice and compare them
Excellent comparison, You did our community a great service by defining the quality issues with some imported products,
A grinder with a not flat magnet, you see damages 15:12
first grind your magnet.
the early 90's china vises were awesome but they had to change them to keep selling in the USA
Do a comparison vs a 600$ china vise.. then you can call it fair.
And use a strain gauge to eliminate all guesswork.
i think calling that grinding a vice is an insult to people who know how to use a grinder
Please educate me and tell me a better way
@@BuildSomthingCool to start with use an angle plate instead of that undersized vise that you used to square things, then reevaluate your sequence of grinding events.
Cad-Cam_Man I don’t have angle plate. Will you donate one the channel?
@@BuildSomthingCool I would but I'm making a living with mine.
Very well done on the regrind and the proof of where the quality is. Now do you want to trade that Chinese vise for my Chinese vise? 😁 I have one that is very similar.
Well you get what you pay for, still holds true.
Winn got a lot for giving away free vise ;)
I have a Kurt D675 and a Chinese no-name clone I purchased about 20 years ago. For both, the amount of ‘lift’ you get on the moveable jaw depends on how you adjust the setscrew on the moveable jaw. The clone slightly outperforms the Kurt in every respect, and its castings have much better finish than the one in your video, Dale. It’s wrong to lump all China made vises together. Unfortunately, many people purchase their clones sight unseen. I bought mine from a machinery dealer, so I was able to inspect it before buying. I bought the Kurt last year, mostly to see if it would be a step up. YMMV.
Not if you buy a new superduty ford
Paul Mathews Interesting. Is it a perfect copy? Dale's vise is not!
AtelierDBurgoyne No. Dimensions are metric. Main features are copied, but not exactly.
We actually did this in a place I used to work and got similar results. But, if I remember correctly, the bed heights no longer met the standard 2.875". So, they could only be used by themselves.
Even if you improve the geometry of an inexpensive vise, you can't change the material it is made out of. Besides the elasticity differences between different types of cast iron, durability is an issue. A new vise looks good but cheaper cast irons can't be hardened so they'll wear prematurely.
Dale, your channel is great and I appreciate all the informative content it has and the time you've taken to make the videos. Firing shots at AvE was unnecessary IMO. In terms of the Chinese vise pretending to be a Kurt, can the case not be made that the Kurt design is simply a proven design that everyone copies? There are a lot of similarities between cell phones these days but you can't really say that a cell phone manufacturer is trying to pass their phones off as iPhones just because they might look the same. The title of the video was ultimately what wasn't tasteful. It should have been more factual like: Cheap Chinese Vise vs Expensive USA Vise. The audience doesn't really need the insult of being presented as being unable to discern that a cheap $200 vise isn't as good as an $800 Kurt.
Also, was the cheap Chinese vise used? It certainly looks well-worn. The real challenge, I thought, would be to compare vises of equivalent cost to see what the value propositions are in that case. Does a $600 Chinese vise provide additional value over a $600 USA vise?
Hopefully, everyone will live and learn and we'll do better next time...
I think the thing I miss more is what business value the Kurt Vise gives over the Chinese vise. What is it that you can produce on the Kurt Vise that you cannot produce on the Chinese one?
OP1 sets the dimensioning on the top face, and if you use soft jaws for OP2 then the dimension is set there.
@@jenspetersen5865 Without doing several hundred dollars worth of work to make the Chinese vise work the way a vise should what you can' t make with the Chinese vise out of the box that you can with the Kurt is accurate work.
@@LordPadriac I am sorry but it is an absolutely worthless answer, without a definition of what "accurate work" is. If there is something that US manufacturing is NOT known for, it is accurate work. If ex. tour OP2 is in softjaws., then any incaccuracy stemming from the wise would be negated.
It would be helpfull with an actual answer!
I agree 100%. I saw your first video and was thinking if you were machining something that required precision you could ruin parts rather fast and cost yourself way more than you save with just one rejected part... or if you do not catch it, possible cost you way more do to an upset customer. The thought of losing a contract from a big client because you cheaped out on the tools would keep me up at night. I saw the first video and agreed with you 100%.
I paint for a living. I can get what most people call good brushes for $6. The average beginner would likely do fine painting with these cheaper brushes. For me they loose their tip within hours of good use and become completely useless after a few days for anything but rough work. Jumping up to a Winsor & Newton Series 7 Miniature Round #1 for $18 is worth it. They are made from the Kolinsky Sable fur collected from a weasel in Russia. It is a restricted fur... not banned, but it can be a pain to import it. The brushes are made in England and not in the US so they are fine. These brushes will last me at least 20x longer. I'm sorry, but 20x longer for 3x the cost is WELL WORTH it. Besides working with better materials not only saves me time, but makes me produce better products. If I could get a brush that lasted a year I would be willingly pay $100 a brush.
Dale, I've seen your videos pop up on suggestions but this was the first time I watched one. Excellent quality and very informative. I always thought you can upgrade your every badly made chinese versions to good ones, but apparently not. Subbed!
Hi Valkman Thanks for subscribing :-)
This was very enjoyable thank you for these fun videos!
I really appreciate the effort you put into this. Stellar work no matter what anyone thinks of the outcome.
Why not compare your $600 US made vice to other import $600 vices. This would be a far better measure of the quality and accuracy you proclaim to want. The Mercedes to Yugo example may be slightly incorrect, but the price variance isn't dissimilar.
I just purchased 4 Kurt vises.......VERY happy they will arrive ready to work.
I did, however, learn some toolmaker techniques. Makes me want to go buy a surface grinder just for fun.
$650.oo for a KURT,sound well worth it to me... The idea you had allot of fun making the Chinesium unit squared / paralleled up or tried to, anyway, is understood, for your video content, but, to consider how much time one hour of time is worth, as per, the skilled machinist's at KURT is, it is worth to me, for the never failing product line. I have no issue, and gladly spend my money on the KURT units, and I like the idea, that my money is feeding the work force at KURT, I am sure the families their like to put food on their tables while raising a family. I am glad you mentioned the time and what one hour of a skilled work force is worth, for a fine product, as to not under-cut the American working families. Fun video to watch, though, Keep at it.
So what if you make a hardened metal base for the vice to increase it's rigidity? Add back those 12 pounds of metal! BTW, if clamping warps your vice that much I wonder if it will also warp the mill table it's mounted to? Possibly increase the dovetail wear and binding?
What I meant was a plate to go under the vice, probably clamped to it by plenty of screws, to stiffen the base up. That is assuming the flex of the base is really the significant source of error here. But I assume it's a good thing if the base relies less on the rigidity of the mill table, as it means less flex of the mill table.
Great video! I actually thought about doing this to my overseas 3" Kurt clone but I thought it would still flex as did yours. Keep these great vids coming!
Thanks for the video
Have just bought a grinder and this video is very useful
Your comment of how much your time is worth is very true
I always regret bargain purchases
There are some things that I don't mind having cheap tools. However, when I need constancy, repeatability and accuracy and where I am using a tool frequently it is worth spending $$$>
Considering how much value there is in this guy's effort for those of us who do not yet know everything there is to know about machining I am surprised about the negative comments. I just wonder why you bother to come here?
Tom, by your own admission you're learning so perhaps that explains your surprise - I'd suggest the first research you undertake should be to discern the difference between s**t and shinola because buddy, that's why your shoes don't shine. As to the value of his effort - it's purely for his personal gain actual value as a review = $0. Don't take any (more) wooden nickels.
If you want to learn a bit about machining and tooling watch stefan gotteswinter, abom79 or this old tony. This guy did not properly square the stock and metrology was pretty atrocious to be honest. I am not here to say all Chinese goods are great because most are not, but the two videos of his that I have see are even worse.
There's no way that table you were sliding the dial gauge base on was 100% zero .. I would like to see the USA vise apart and the dial gauge slid across that table to see if it is 0 ...
Speak your mind, Sir! When you compare one thing to another in a plain view it puts things out there for everyone to see and nothing is hidden. What ever someone else says about your presentation is his/her decision, but I do understand that sometimes it hurts because you in, full fairness, did not think that such a critique would be necessary. Keep up the good job! Who wants to learn something from you will do, those who always argue will argue anyway. Thank for posting.
I like this video more than the last because its not really bashing the vise but you are making comparison of quality, still it was a cheap shot at AvE, he has shown that even the most expensive tools make compromises, that some cheaper tools are worth it but more importantly that it takes someone taking it apart and seeing how its made to see which companies make the best compromises for the $$$, like he said he is partial to Snap-On but its not the best bang for the buck, and I love that now I know Makita engineers know where to use what components and what processes to make a high quality yet affordable tool. Keep up the good work.
Regarding your grinding setup, you should have first put it the way side down, as that had the dish in it, making it very easy to shim from one corner and from the middle for support. Clamp, grind flat, flip it and grind flat.
As for shims, nothing beats a stack of paper next to the grinder. Shove paper under the gap, tear off and shove another.
aaand it seems the reason you did that way was because of trying to fiddle this thing through on a grinder that is just way too small for the job.
Thanks for the Effort Dale!
Nice video. I do not understand why the clamping did not improve. Is the ramp for the clamp nut smooth? I filed mine and the lift clamp was much better. Thanks for both video's, I enjoyed each of them. I have the chinese vice but this just helps me with desire for the Kurt.
Great work. I’m not sure witch part I liked the most “ the trying to make a good vice for a bad vice “ or “ fixing all the bad grinding “ thinks for sharing.
I was interested in this video until he began denigrating other youtubers at 3:23.
I completely agree with your assessment that China is trying to sell you a look-alike at half the cost. And in my experience working with China companies is that the raw material costs are basically the same, but they save about 50% on the labor with the remaining processes.
just found you. love your way of explaining things. I'm just thinking of getting a small mill/drill for my shop. Of course I'm not a machinist I'm a Dentist, so for what you do I'm just a idiot wanting to do some stuff but can't afford or have the room for a Knee mill.I know they have specs like the Chinese vise, but this does show me what kind of vise is good and which ones are not. Hope to learn more watching your vids. thank you for taking the time to do them.
I really respect you for doing this!!!
The dig to ave is uncalled for. It's just like the example,
Ave is not trying to say he is a master builder, or the Mercedes car, his function is to show us what's going in under the hood, what will go wrong and what is good.
You in the other hand, show us cool things and go in to excited new products.
It's not a comparison because like the vises, two different types of content, with two different goals.
I love both channels, and will keep watching both.
Dont think AvE gives a fuck, but yes that was super lame.
He’s just butt-hurt because he’s decided to sell out and become a corporate shill like the rest. Gotta take a shot at the guy who refuses to fall in line..and calls out the bullshit.