Excellent video. Generally speaking, there are three things I'm interested in regarding muzzle brakes. 1. What is the Increase in noise level to the shooter. 2. How will a given muzzle brake change the poi of my rifle from being sighted in without a muzzle brake? 3. Recoil reduction. Your video has thoroughly covered #3 and I hope you can include the other two points in a future video.
As an engineer and a precision shooter, I love this content. You have some of the most useful reviews on the internet - real scientific data for product evaluation. Please keep it up.
How does your pulling trigger affect the recoil? Are you adding a variable by not pulling the same way every time? How about the other hand bracing the firearm? Probably should have a trigger pull rig to pull the same way every time and then do testing with dummy rounds to quantify without actual recoil.
was about to ask the same thing when I seen him bracing the scope then seen this comment, not judging, just curious as to if there would be a measurable affect on the data.
it's a 26lb rifle....i'm sure he's not gonna skew his results on a 2-3lb trigger pull...give him credit for doing stuff you your self are not going to do or test
@@thorwaldjohanson2526 2 pounds may be the force required for the trigger to release but the force applied to the trigger will be greater. In addition the angle will very each time. It would be very much either, I've seen some pretty basic setups. The ones used at Lake City are extremely simple, no over thinking required.
As a former physics instructor and former sniper, I was intrigued to see the terrifically specific data you were collecting in your research. I'm trying to determine which .30 caliber muzzle brake to purchase and your work will be the yardstick I use before making my decision. I've not seen any other guntuber doing such intricate research in this area. The Apolo Max appears to be the brake that accomplished the mission best. This has been a gratifying experience. Seeing a young man doing significant research in this arena restores my faith in the STEM capability of your generation. Bravo, Sir, bravo. Extremely well done, indeed. You have my gratitude and thanks. To say thanks as we say in Cherokee, wa-do. Pronounced wah-doe.
I have to echo the Ultradyne Apollo. I bought one for 6.5 Grendal, reduced perceived recoil to almost nothing on an AR platform. I know, Grendal doesn't have much recoil anyway. I am trying to reduce rifle jump and this helped a great deal.
i bought an EC tuner brake, put it on a Unitau Precision upper. With 168 A-Max, the difference between brake and no brake on 0, the group went from 1.5 to 3/4".
Dude! I can’t tell you how much this helped me choose the Apollo Max. Got one based on yours and another comparison. Went to the range today where there were three 300 WinMags. Mine with the Apollo Max and two other with no brakes; one had no recoil pad (older model) and another newer with pad. I can say without a doubt the Apollo max SIGNIFICANTLY reduced recoil. 3 shooters, all agreed. Great video!
In your vids of the shooting you were holding the rifle by the scope. How much does changing your grip on the scope, downward pressure or pressure pushing the butt of the stock against the stop vs no pressure or pressure away from the stop. Would there be some mechanical way to hold the rifle with more consistently. We all know holding a rifle firmly against the shoulder vs loosely effects how the recoil feels. With a mechanical holding devise you could adjust the firmness of the rifle and against the stop to see how much that effects the readings. Perhaps this gives you a bit more to think about on testing procedures.
I like the test and data! My only concern or question is the weight you are putting on the rifle with you offhand. Was it there so the rifle didn’t fall over? I would assume the more weight you push down the more friction on the front bag so the less push rearward it would be. Just a finger on the trigger would remove the possibility of human error in my head. Again, only you know what weight was put on it. Thank you for the information and testing though!!!
MDR has a great muzzle break port test while eliminating human errors. By you having your hand on top raise questions about accuracy of the test. Even if you're it from flipping it still adds human error.
Interesting results. I know you did 300 PRC, but it would be interesting to see the results in say 6.5 or 6 creed with a 30 cal muzzle brake since having a larger tolerances helped in creating less recoil results. Just me 2 cents and thank you for showing us the results.
While some of the better brakes on the chart did have higher clearances, some of the runner ups also had a tight clearance like the ec tuner brake and the hellfire, I would say they may not exactly be linked but it would be intersting to test. I wonder if they could do the same test with a 300 prc on the hellfire, then open up the bore of the hellfire and retest it to see what the results are. Just my .02
You were grabbing the firearm during testing. Wouldn’t that affect your results? You could be putting different pressure on the gun for each round. Should be testing while no touching the firearm at all except to pull trigger.
The force from the trigger pull will be around 1-3lbs, on a 26lb gun. That amount of pressure is absolutely negligible compared against the peak recoil force. The differences will just be lost in the noise of the data
I wasn't referring to him pulling the trigger. But he is grabbing the scope. I don't know how much pressure he is putting on it and it could be varying with each round.
@@dustinchristopher66 even then, we are still only talking about at most a pound or two of pressure on the scope, a pound or two on the trigger, and then 500lbs of recoil force. The Impact of his hands on the gun won't even show up on the graph
What about the fact that he had both Ultradyne Apollo muzzle devices oriented the wrong way during testing? Could that affect the effects of the recoil measurements?
I agree with you! We have no idea how much pressure he was applying with his hand on the scope Nd how consistent that pressure was from shot to shot. Very nice test, but tainted by the hand. He needs to find a way to conduct the test without his stabilizing hand.
My guess on the increased recoil time is from backpressure. I'd like to see if there is any increase or decrease to average velocity at the muzzle from the different breaks. Would also love to see how the widely trusted budget VG6 brand works compared to the others.
Awesome video if you do a follow up video. Make sure to test both the area 419 hellfire match and the sidewinder. With how well the normal hellfire preformed I would love to see how those ones do. Keep up the awesome videos thanks.
The air inside the barrel before the shot provide pre-bullet braking which accounts for the offset in the peak from the bare muzzle. I was thinking that you should look at reduction of impulse rather than total impulse. It might be enlightening. I realize the result order won’t change, but showing the amount of reduction might be helpful when looking at a higher recoil rig.
for the compensator test you could always create a second recoil rig to sit atop the barrel to measure barrel rise force and compare in the same way as you have done for recoil ? you are not measuring or comparing accuracy so you don't need to worry about barrel harmonics just force. would be very interesting to see.
The instrument is so sensitive you can actually see that, but it's only a 5-6 lb force, and it was consistent pre-load on all tests +/- about 1lb. Good thoughts!
I would love to see you put the Apollo brakes, EC tuner brake, and the hell fire brake against the sidewinder, the TMB Tuner brake, the fat and lil Bastard brakes, and hellfire Match brakes. Essentially all of the best brakes in PRS. Maybe even a 419 Maverick?
Thanks for the great video, but you have a mix of standard and high efficiency brakes in the same test. We would love to see a shootout test of high efficiency brakes like the Hypertap, Hellfire Match, APA Gen3 and Apollo Max. The Apollo looks like it was run upside down? The comp ports are on the bottom. Trigger pull and downward scope forces will also affect the data. I love your videos, and I watch almost everyone of them.
You should throw in the browning recoil hawg. My bergara b14 SP in 308 came with the omni brake and still had more recoil than i would like. Switched it with the recoil hawg and it felt like it cut the recoil nearly in half from the omni brake
Did you experience any accuracy issues with the Omni break? I read that there may have been some problems with the manufacturing of that break, but I didn't experience that with my Bergara HMR Wilderness 6.5 CM. I bought mine in January 2021.
So not sure if anyone has brought the up but the Apollo muzzle brakes you had the parts facing down which would also add do the rise of the barrel when fired wouldn't you want them pointing up to help counteract the natural muzzle climb instead of assisting with it? Did you test them up and down or just down?
I have the Apollo on my AR10 in 308 and that thing is LOUD! I ended up switching to a Browning Recoil Hawg instead; works fine and is much lighter/smaller. I have the Hellfire Match on my 20" 300wsm Tikka and I've been pretty impressed with it! Doesn't seem like it throws much gas/sound back as much as the brakes I have on my AR.
I am a fan finally a real engineer approach to measurement here super clear presentation graphics and method. Normalize the trigger pole is the only improvement I see here but keep going you’re onto something as a Gungineer
Great data collection and analysis of various brakes. Really good to show how much actually goes into selecting components for your system and how they affect the whole system differently. I'd be interested in comparing brakes to suppressors in this fashion.
Keep up the great work! I enjoy looking at the data so a guy can figure out how much felt recoil can be reduced. Keep doing what your doing, don't listen to the trolls on here, 98% probably don't have a firearm, the other 2% MIGHT have one and know how to shoot it.
Look into a shock sensor used on automotive race cars. We use them to measure suspension travel for suspension tuning. They can be mounted to the stock and test bench to measure barrel lift. I’m not sure on how fast they measure movement, but we have also used them as a throttle position sensor as well with no issues. Great video and info.
Powder charge and burn rate along with and bullet, length and weight will effect barrel pressure even primer chose can effect pressure. Muzzle brakes are the mechanical aspect of recoil reduction. Grate topic! Finally someone come up a way to actually measure recoil and brake it down.
Just got a new Tikka T3x 308 and was going to purchase the Precision armament but I’m really interested in the Apollo. My old shoulder is not really liking my 300 win mag after 35 years of shooting one. Great video!
Awesome video, as an engineer i found very valuable a video with actual data instead of feelings. About the theory that the peaks are related to the natural frequency it would be very interesting to see the differences changing the tuning of the myzzle
Good that you mentioned NOISE "dispersion". The critical arc is 90 degree either side and around to the REAR.. Re-directed blast to the firer and adjacent shooters / bystanders, is an important factor in hearing safety and general "comfort" on the range and in the field.
Thanks for the info Gavin ! I just ordered the Apollo Max based on your findings and other reviews from people in the PRS comp community for my new Savage 110 precision elite 300 prc rifle. I will let you know how I like it after I get it on the range. Dana
Great video and information across the board on the different brakes. Would you be able to add or do a video with NextGen EC Tuner Brake and MDT Comp Brake? Thank you
You mentioned the frequency of the rifle, I wonder if the mdt rubber plugs for the stock would change the frequency on the graph, or different stock material, aluminum vs carbon fiber vs rubber if that would change the feeling.
I’m watching your vid right now and I’m totally nerding out! Love it! Excellent job with the data analysis, I’ve done very similar work for a different application. Also I just purchased the Apollo Max to go on a Sig Cross in 308. I’m glad it isn’t just marketing and the data checks out.
I found with the same 300prc Hornady ammunition couple years ago on a chronograph there was an ES of 200fps (was same over a few boxes, different lots). Would be interesting doing this on a consistent handload over a few rds per break. Additional, i wonder if that frequency would change while adjusting the EC Tunner.
Diff. between brake and no brake, you have changed the spring / mass system by adding more mass (mass of brake) so the dynamics of the mechanism is retuned. No way you can avoid that except to remove mass somewhere else. You could put an adjustable mass on the stock somewhere so you can subtract the mass of the rig to equate added brake mass.
The Ultradyne brakes were installed upside down. The last ports are supposed to be up not down. Would it effect recoil? Maybe not but it would keep muzzle jump down which may result in a little more impulse to the rear. Maybe. I have the Max so I noticed that immediately.
Ultradyne Apollo Max and Ultradyne Apollo LR both appeared to have been mounted with ports that counter the effects of the vertical muzzle climb. Could this affect the effects of the perceived recoil with which the instrument is attempting to measure?
Gavin, I am glad someone put some real accurate data to the brake test. I am also an engineer that works on taking force measurements at very high speeds(300ks/s). There are several little things you could do to get the purest readings but most of them are just noise due to the high forces you are measuring. I am surprised at how high they are. As for muzzle rise, you could use a high speed camera but then you will need compare it to some measuring device. An easier way would be to use a linear or axial encoder mounted on pivots. You would also be able to correlate the muzzle rise with the recoil force and the time off of target. Keep up the good work.
WRT measuring muzzle rise, I think that being able to keep the scope on target and still to observe impact location is key. Using a Trigger Cam should be able to show this. You could do both offhand and bipod. Also, if bipod, how much dust is kicked up?
i would love to see the difference in all those brakes when you use them on a really slow .30 cal round. just to see the difference and if any design shines in that area and just to see the reduction differences compared to the PRC
The fluctuations you see, that you speculate could be harmonics, could possibly be the rubber butt pad. It would be interesting to see the results with and without the rubber butt pad in place.
I think conaervation of momentum explains the shift in the force curve. Momentum = mass x velocity = impulse = force x time. The cartridge has a fixed momentum when shot, so as the force is reduced by each brake, the time is lengthened out to conserve the momentum. Just my initial 2 cent thought...
A post about recoil on a hunting forum argues the point of whether there is a difference in recoil between a 243 and a 243 Ackley because of the change in case angle. Similarly there are reports of sharper recoil with faster burning propellants than those that fill the case and burn slower. This was mentioned regarding the 375H&H. Would this be feasible to experiment with?
Hey Gavin, I am curious about the percentage of recoil reduction given the exact same ammunition, brake, and rifle, except for the weight of said rifle. Your MDT chassis based 300 PRC would be perfect. Test it at max weight then start taking weights off and retesting. Since the forward forces generated by the brake would remain the same, but the mass of the rifle was decreased, how would that change the peak forces as well as one impulse? Long way of asking does a light rifle recoil much more than a heavy rifle with the same brake…
Absolutely!!!! I would love to see this as well..... I think the brake would be easier to pull a light rifle forward.. But then the larger mass rifle would be harder to push rearward.... Would be interesting for sure...
I’d love to see the Ultra Dyne Apollo Max vs the Unrivaled Muzzle Brake on a 556 platform. The Unrivaled was designed by two competitors and I’m curious tuning it can affect the results.
I would like an accuracy test between them. See the comparison of bore gap size to accuracy. I have been told the tighter the bore, the more gas extraction the brake can strip from the bullet. That would have the potential to more consistent groupings. Also I would like to see how muzzle breaks and a compensator affects the barrel harmonics.
I would like to see the results of these same 30 Cal brakes on 7mm & 6.5 calibers of your choice. I'd like to see if the same rankings carry over to smaller diameter projectiles.
The super beast series from muzzlebreaksandmore are the best out there. The latter has testing on his channel showing better performance than the apallo's.
Thanks so much Gavin. You do the same type analysis of "things" I do. Was considering building a pressure tester or find an already made one. I too an a jack of all trades and master of a few. I was a systems engineer. Knew how to program but diagnosed when something went wrong be it hardware circuit failure, microde/machine code, OS or application. IBMer... lol I like the real world approach you do. Once again thanks. I just bought a brake not one you reviewed but will be doing some testing. I just measured the TOTAL clearance on mine and it is .034. That is .017 actual side to side clearance. ALSO I would like see what effect an A2 flash hider would have on muzzle rise if any.
Only just found this video. Great idea and interesting results. I wonder about the effect of a suppressor and maybe one of the ATF-free devices that push the sound forward?
You should also investigate the “holy shit” factor… when I am next to you on a firing line and that recoil blast-back makes me say “Holy shit! Is that a Bazooka?”
My immediate theory as to why the brakes with the higher clearance performed better is based off of fluid mechanic principals. For example you get better flow with a gradual 90 degree turn than you do with an abrupt 90. So giving some clearance simulates a gradual shift. That paired with the 4 port design would makes sense why they performed so well. Would like to see this test done with hand loads to have a more consistent charge to compare. Might be negligible but would still be interested in seeing those results.
Gavin, I would think that the first bare muzzle came out highest and with shortest time frame, would be because there is absolutely nothing restricting the gasses moving forward and no restriction to the gasses due to air deflection surrounding the air around the muzzle. It would be interesting to do a smoke test in ultra slow mo, to see how the air dynamics are surrounding the muzzle.
For sound testing you should contact Al Paulson he has written several books on sound testing of suppressors. Larson and Davis make a great sound meter; SoundTrack® LxT Firearm Noise Sound Level Meter. As far as how to measure the rise of the rifles muzzle would be a high speed camera with a graph behind it to show the movement. Good luck
Great experiment. Your test proved my theory correct about the EC tuner brake. I noticed more recoil when I switched out my APA Little Bastard Gen 2 for it on a 9lb 300 WSM. Your test showed it was mediocre when it came to reducing recoil.
Hi Gavin, I really enjoyed this test and seeing the results grafted. I was also a little surprised by those results because I assumed other breaks would out preform the Apollo breaks. Quite a surprise. It would be interesting to run a decibel test from behind the rifle at the time of running other tests on the breaks. The noise levels and overall break efficiency together would be fruitful in deciding what break to purchase. Really great job Gavin.
Just picked up the Apollo Max for the 5.56. Very interested in seeing how it does in that Caliber. Sound suppression for the devices is near nonexistent so I’d love to see that tested if possible. Very data driven great info, good stuff!
did you intend to put the Ultradyne brakes on upside down?... I thought the 2 ports in the front of the brake point to the sky? thats definitely why they kicked up so much dirt/dust
Excellent video.
Generally speaking, there are three things I'm interested in regarding muzzle brakes.
1. What is the Increase in noise level to the shooter.
2. How will a given muzzle brake change the poi of my rifle from being sighted in without a muzzle brake?
3. Recoil reduction.
Your video has thoroughly covered #3 and I hope you can include the other two points in a future video.
I think you have the ultradyne muzzle break upside down
As an engineer and a precision shooter, I love this content. You have some of the most useful reviews on the internet - real scientific data for product evaluation. Please keep it up.
Absolutely!! Precision and clarity.
@@johnkissam8312 Thanks for appreciating what we do guys!
I second third fourth and 10th that motion. Excellent work! Keep it up! Ignore the naysayers who have nothing better to do.
Would love to see a recoil reduction test with silencers - especially contrasting flow through designs with high back pressure “gas trap” designs.
How does your pulling trigger affect the recoil? Are you adding a variable by not pulling the same way every time? How about the other hand bracing the firearm? Probably should have a trigger pull rig to pull the same way every time and then do testing with dummy rounds to quantify without actual recoil.
was about to ask the same thing when I seen him bracing the scope then seen this comment, not judging, just curious as to if there would be a measurable affect on the data.
Remember that the peak forces were 360-700 pounds, a 2 pound trigger pull won't influence the curve really
it's a 26lb rifle....i'm sure he's not gonna skew his results on a 2-3lb trigger pull...give him credit for doing stuff you your self are not going to do or test
@@thorwaldjohanson2526 2 pounds may be the force required for the trigger to release but the force applied to the trigger will be greater. In addition the angle will very each time. It would be very much either, I've seen some pretty basic setups. The ones used at Lake City are extremely simple, no over thinking required.
A 26lb rifle will mute a lot of recoil however. It seems like a lot of effort to still be imprecise.
Very cool test. Thanks for all the hard work on this.
Thanks guys- love your channel!
@@Ultimatereloader 👊
Try this test with an undersized round like 6mm or 6.5 PRC. through the 30 CAL. brakes
As a former physics instructor and former sniper, I was intrigued to see the terrifically specific data you were collecting in your research.
I'm trying to determine which .30 caliber muzzle brake to purchase and your work will be the yardstick I use before making my decision.
I've not seen any other guntuber doing such intricate research in this area.
The Apolo Max appears to be the brake that accomplished the mission best. This has been a gratifying experience. Seeing a young man doing significant research in this arena restores my faith in the STEM capability of your generation.
Bravo, Sir, bravo. Extremely well done, indeed.
You have my gratitude and thanks. To say thanks as we say in Cherokee, wa-do. Pronounced wah-doe.
If you haven’t got one yet, do it. You will not be let down.
Ultradyne apollo S
I have to echo the Ultradyne Apollo. I bought one for 6.5 Grendal, reduced perceived recoil to almost nothing on an AR platform.
I know, Grendal doesn't have much recoil anyway. I am trying to reduce rifle jump and this helped a great deal.
@TFoley-mm9ff What's the difference between the Apollo Max and the Apollo S...?
@@MitchShurden to the best of my knowledge, the difference has to do with bore size.
i bought an EC tuner brake, put it on a Unitau Precision upper. With 168 A-Max, the difference between brake and no brake on 0, the group went from 1.5 to 3/4".
Dude! I can’t tell you how much this helped me choose the Apollo Max. Got one based on yours and another comparison. Went to the range today where there were three 300 WinMags. Mine with the Apollo Max and two other with no brakes; one had no recoil pad (older model) and another newer with pad. I can say without a doubt the Apollo max SIGNIFICANTLY reduced recoil. 3 shooters, all agreed. Great video!
I am just checking out the Apollo max but there seems to be incompatible with 300 win mag?
How does the recoil feel like? Like which caliber?
Thanks!
APA brakes strangely missing... precisionrifleblog surveyed professional long range shooters and it was by far the most popular.
Agreed.!
In your vids of the shooting you were holding the rifle by the scope. How much does changing your grip on the scope, downward pressure or pressure pushing the butt of the stock against the stop vs no pressure or pressure away from the stop.
Would there be some mechanical way to hold the rifle with more consistently.
We all know holding a rifle firmly against the shoulder vs loosely effects how the recoil feels. With a mechanical holding devise you could adjust the firmness of the rifle and against the stop to see how much that effects the readings.
Perhaps this gives you a bit more to think about on testing procedures.
The ultradyne apollo is upside down. It's what I use on my 300prc it is very comfortable to shoot
Gavin, I'd love to see those expanded to include Muzzlebrakesandmore, APA muzzle breaks as well as Terminator muzzle breaks
I like the test and data! My only concern or question is the weight you are putting on the rifle with you offhand. Was it there so the rifle didn’t fall over? I would assume the more weight you push down the more friction on the front bag so the less push rearward it would be. Just a finger on the trigger would remove the possibility of human error in my head. Again, only you know what weight was put on it. Thank you for the information and testing though!!!
MDR has a great muzzle break port test while eliminating human errors. By you having your hand on top raise questions about accuracy of the test. Even if you're it from flipping it still adds human error.
Interesting results. I know you did 300 PRC, but it would be interesting to see the results in say 6.5 or 6 creed with a 30 cal muzzle brake since having a larger tolerances helped in creating less recoil results. Just me 2 cents and thank you for showing us the results.
While some of the better brakes on the chart did have higher clearances, some of the runner ups also had a tight clearance like the ec tuner brake and the hellfire, I would say they may not exactly be linked but it would be intersting to test. I wonder if they could do the same test with a 300 prc on the hellfire, then open up the bore of the hellfire and retest it to see what the results are. Just my .02
Awesome information. Would like to see APA brakes in the lineup.
You were grabbing the firearm during testing. Wouldn’t that affect your results? You could be putting different pressure on the gun for each round. Should be testing while no touching the firearm at all except to pull trigger.
The force from the trigger pull will be around 1-3lbs, on a 26lb gun. That amount of pressure is absolutely negligible compared against the peak recoil force. The differences will just be lost in the noise of the data
I wasn't referring to him pulling the trigger. But he is grabbing the scope. I don't know how much pressure he is putting on it and it could be varying with each round.
@@dustinchristopher66 even then, we are still only talking about at most a pound or two of pressure on the scope, a pound or two on the trigger, and then 500lbs of recoil force. The Impact of his hands on the gun won't even show up on the graph
What about the fact that he had both Ultradyne Apollo muzzle devices oriented the wrong way during testing? Could that affect the effects of the recoil measurements?
I agree with you! We have no idea how much pressure he was applying with his hand on the scope Nd how consistent that pressure was from shot to shot. Very nice test, but tainted by the hand. He needs to find a way to conduct the test without his stabilizing hand.
My guess on the increased recoil time is from backpressure. I'd like to see if there is any increase or decrease to average velocity at the muzzle from the different breaks. Would also love to see how the widely trusted budget VG6 brand works compared to the others.
Awesome video if you do a follow up video. Make sure to test both the area 419 hellfire match and the sidewinder. With how well the normal hellfire preformed I would love to see how those ones do. Keep up the awesome videos thanks.
The air inside the barrel before the shot provide pre-bullet braking which accounts for the offset in the peak from the bare muzzle.
I was thinking that you should look at reduction of impulse rather than total impulse. It might be enlightening. I realize the result order won’t change, but showing the amount of reduction might be helpful when looking at a higher recoil rig.
Why are you keeping your non trigger hand on the scope/rifle as you pull the trigger?
I know a few guys that really love their EC Tuner Brake. More than one said it turned a 1" MOA rifle to a 1/4"MOA rifle
for the compensator test you could always create a second recoil rig to sit atop the barrel to measure barrel rise force and compare in the same way as you have done for recoil ? you are not measuring or comparing accuracy so you don't need to worry about barrel harmonics just force. would be very interesting to see.
@gavintoobe aren’t you skewing the results by holding the scope when you’re firing?
The instrument is so sensitive you can actually see that, but it's only a 5-6 lb force, and it was consistent pre-load on all tests +/- about 1lb. Good thoughts!
@@Ultimatereloader haha I figured with your typical attention to detail that it wasn’t an accident. But was still curious. Thanks for the response!
I would love to see you put the Apollo brakes, EC tuner brake, and the hell fire brake against the sidewinder, the TMB Tuner brake, the fat and lil Bastard brakes, and hellfire Match brakes. Essentially all of the best brakes in PRS. Maybe even a 419 Maverick?
How about comparing a 30 cal brake on a 6.5 (or some other small caliber) vs. a brake designed for 6.5?
Thanks for the great video, but you have a mix of standard and high efficiency brakes in the same test. We would love to see a shootout test of high efficiency brakes like the Hypertap, Hellfire Match, APA Gen3 and Apollo Max. The Apollo looks like it was run upside down? The comp ports are on the bottom. Trigger pull and downward scope forces will also affect the data. I love your videos, and I watch almost everyone of them.
You should throw in the browning recoil hawg. My bergara b14 SP in 308 came with the omni brake and still had more recoil than i would like. Switched it with the recoil hawg and it felt like it cut the recoil nearly in half from the omni brake
Did you experience any accuracy issues with the Omni break? I read that there may have been some problems with the manufacturing of that break, but I didn't experience that with my Bergara HMR Wilderness 6.5 CM. I bought mine in January 2021.
@@randytrudeau952 not particularly with the brake but i changed it out after a couple of shots, before i had even finished zeroing
This sounds like an awesome series that I would love to watch because I'm a numbers nerd.
Awesome presentation of the data!
So not sure if anyone has brought the up but the Apollo muzzle brakes you had the parts facing down which would also add do the rise of the barrel when fired wouldn't you want them pointing up to help counteract the natural muzzle climb instead of assisting with it? Did you test them up and down or just down?
I have the Apollo on my AR10 in 308 and that thing is LOUD! I ended up switching to a Browning Recoil Hawg instead; works fine and is much lighter/smaller. I have the Hellfire Match on my 20" 300wsm Tikka and I've been pretty impressed with it! Doesn't seem like it throws much gas/sound back as much as the brakes I have on my AR.
Question, did you only fire once per muzzle brake?
I am a fan finally a real engineer approach to measurement here super clear presentation graphics and method. Normalize the trigger pole is the only improvement I see here but keep going you’re onto something as a Gungineer
Great data collection and analysis of various brakes. Really good to show how much actually goes into selecting components for your system and how they affect the whole system differently. I'd be interested in comparing brakes to suppressors in this fashion.
Keep up the great work! I enjoy looking at the data so a guy can figure out how much felt recoil can be reduced. Keep doing what your doing, don't listen to the trolls on here, 98% probably don't have a firearm, the other 2% MIGHT have one and know how to shoot it.
Look into a shock sensor used on automotive race cars. We use them to measure suspension travel for suspension tuning. They can be mounted to the stock and test bench to measure barrel lift. I’m not sure on how fast they measure movement, but we have also used them as a throttle position sensor as well with no issues. Great video and info.
Great review Gavin-the science doesn't lie !
I have a Ruger American GoWild .30-06. I was surprised how well the stock radial muzzle brake works.
Thanks for the video / information. Very interested in the "muzzle rise" follow-up test....
Powder charge and burn rate along with and bullet, length and weight will effect barrel pressure even primer chose can effect pressure. Muzzle brakes are the mechanical aspect of recoil reduction. Grate topic! Finally someone come up a way to actually measure recoil and brake it down.
I would love to see you test the Ryan Peirce 5 port muscle brake. I have one and absolutely love it.
Great, informative video…I’d love to see the surefire muzzle break included if possible.
Just got a new Tikka T3x 308 and was going to purchase the Precision armament but I’m really interested in the Apollo. My old shoulder is not really liking my 300 win mag after 35 years of shooting one. Great video!
Awesome video, as an engineer i found very valuable a video with actual data instead of feelings.
About the theory that the peaks are related to the natural frequency it would be very interesting to see the differences changing the tuning of the myzzle
Good that you mentioned NOISE "dispersion".
The critical arc is 90 degree either side and around to the REAR.. Re-directed blast to the firer and adjacent shooters / bystanders, is an important factor in hearing safety and general "comfort" on the range and in the field.
Thanks for the info Gavin ! I just ordered the Apollo Max based on your findings and other reviews from people in the PRS comp community for my new Savage 110 precision elite 300 prc rifle. I will let you know how I like it after I get it on the range. Dana
Wow I have one of those apollos
Great video and information across the board on the different brakes. Would you be able to add or do a video with NextGen EC Tuner Brake and MDT Comp Brake? Thank you
You mentioned the frequency of the rifle, I wonder if the mdt rubber plugs for the stock would change the frequency on the graph, or different stock material, aluminum vs carbon fiber vs rubber if that would change the feeling.
I’m watching your vid right now and I’m totally nerding out! Love it! Excellent job with the data analysis, I’ve done very similar work for a different application. Also I just purchased the Apollo Max to go on a Sig Cross in 308. I’m glad it isn’t just marketing and the data checks out.
You should do a test with Triarc structured barrels! The barrels are designed to lower harmonics.
I found with the same 300prc Hornady ammunition couple years ago on a chronograph there was an ES of 200fps (was same over a few boxes, different lots). Would be interesting doing this on a consistent handload over a few rds per break.
Additional, i wonder if that frequency would change while adjusting the EC Tunner.
I agree a trigger pull rig, maybe with hydraulics or something to pull the trigger can help take out an extra small variable.
Applo lr, installed last week, on a LR-308
Felt like a 22lr at my shoulder, able to keep on target
Diff. between brake and no brake, you have changed the spring / mass system by adding more mass (mass of brake) so the dynamics of the mechanism is retuned. No way you can avoid that except to remove mass somewhere else. You could put an adjustable mass on the stock somewhere so you can subtract the mass of the rig to equate added brake mass.
Apollo Max it is. Thanks for the content. Its really helping me pick my parts.
The Ultradyne brakes were installed upside down. The last ports are supposed to be up not down. Would it effect recoil? Maybe not but it would keep muzzle jump down which may result in a little more impulse to the rear. Maybe. I have the Max so I noticed that immediately.
Ultradyne Apollo Max and Ultradyne Apollo LR both appeared to have been mounted with ports that counter the effects of the vertical muzzle climb. Could this affect the effects of the perceived recoil with which the instrument is attempting to measure?
Gavin, I am glad someone put some real accurate data to the brake test. I am also an engineer that works on taking force measurements at very high speeds(300ks/s). There are several little things you could do to get the purest readings but most of them are just noise due to the high forces you are measuring. I am surprised at how high they are. As for muzzle rise, you could use a high speed camera but then you will need compare it to some measuring device. An easier way would be to use a linear or axial encoder mounted on pivots. You would also be able to correlate the muzzle rise with the recoil force and the time off of target. Keep up the good work.
Hi, fantastic job, congrats!!
Could you please test for accuracy all the brakes tested for recoil?
Five shots each at 300 yards cold bore.
Thank you!!
WRT measuring muzzle rise, I think that being able to keep the scope on target and still to observe impact location is key. Using a Trigger Cam should be able to show this. You could do both offhand and bipod. Also, if bipod, how much dust is kicked up?
i would love to see the difference in all those brakes when you use them on a really slow .30 cal round. just to see the difference and if any design shines in that area and just to see the reduction differences compared to the PRC
Amazing. I ordered a Max for my new rifle. Tyvm.
The fluctuations you see, that you speculate could be harmonics, could possibly be the rubber butt pad. It would be interesting to see the results with and without the rubber butt pad in place.
I think conaervation of momentum explains the shift in the force curve. Momentum = mass x velocity = impulse = force x time. The cartridge has a fixed momentum when shot, so as the force is reduced by each brake, the time is lengthened out to conserve the momentum. Just my initial 2 cent thought...
Would love to see the APW Raptor brakes tested like this. Have heard some great things about them.
A post about recoil on a hunting forum argues the point of whether there is a difference in recoil between a 243 and a 243 Ackley because of the change in case angle. Similarly there are reports of sharper recoil with faster burning propellants than those that fill the case and burn slower. This was mentioned regarding the 375H&H. Would this be feasible to experiment with?
My go to trusted review site. Thank you!
Hey Gavin,
I am curious about the percentage of recoil reduction given the exact same ammunition, brake, and rifle, except for the weight of said rifle. Your MDT chassis based 300 PRC would be perfect. Test it at max weight then start taking weights off and retesting. Since the forward forces generated by the brake would remain the same, but the mass of the rifle was decreased, how would that change the peak forces as well as one impulse?
Long way of asking does a light rifle recoil much more than a heavy rifle with the same brake…
Absolutely!!!! I would love to see this as well..... I think the brake would be easier to pull a light rifle forward.. But then the larger mass rifle would be harder to push rearward.... Would be interesting for sure...
@@touchgo7281 It's linear... there are recoil calculators for rifle weight.
I’d love to see the Ultra Dyne Apollo Max vs the Unrivaled Muzzle Brake on a 556 platform. The Unrivaled was designed by two competitors and I’m curious tuning it can affect the results.
I would like an accuracy test between them. See the comparison of bore gap size to accuracy. I have been told the tighter the bore, the more gas extraction the brake can strip from the bullet. That would have the potential to more consistent groupings.
Also I would like to see how muzzle breaks and a compensator affects the barrel harmonics.
I would like to see the results of these same 30 Cal brakes on 7mm & 6.5 calibers of your choice. I'd like to see if the same rankings carry over to smaller diameter projectiles.
The super beast series from muzzlebreaksandmore are the best out there. The latter has testing on his channel showing better performance than the apallo's.
As an engineer, thank you for all of the effort to put this together.
Outstanding work and video
Love to see you review the "hawg" brake from browning. CLAIMED up to 75% reduction
Can check muzzle rise with an eddy current sensor.
You didn’t even say what I won. You need to work on your scam game
I have the Apollo S on my 18” 223 Wylde. Great products. Will stick with them when I get a 308.
For a 7mm would there be a benefit in going with a 7mm specific brake over the wider selection of 30 cal. options?
Interesting initial test. Thanks for sharing. Please measure muzzle rise or jump with and without muzzle breaks in a more controlled environment.
Thanks so much Gavin. You do the same type analysis of "things" I do. Was considering building a pressure tester or find an already made one. I too an a jack of all trades and master of a few. I was a systems engineer. Knew how to program but diagnosed when something went wrong be it hardware circuit failure, microde/machine code, OS or application. IBMer... lol
I like the real world approach you do. Once again thanks. I just bought a brake not one you reviewed but will be doing some testing. I just measured the TOTAL clearance on mine and it is .034. That is .017 actual side to side clearance.
ALSO I would like see what effect an A2 flash hider would have on muzzle rise if any.
interesting to see some suppressor mounting brakes, unsuppressed and suppressed differences with this rig.
Awesome video, thanks ! Hope to see follow up(s).
Only just found this video. Great idea and interesting results. I wonder about the effect of a suppressor and maybe one of the ATF-free devices that push the sound forward?
You should also investigate the “holy shit” factor… when I am next to you on a firing line and that recoil blast-back makes me say “Holy shit! Is that a Bazooka?”
My immediate theory as to why the brakes with the higher clearance performed better is based off of fluid mechanic principals. For example you get better flow with a gradual 90 degree turn than you do with an abrupt 90. So giving some clearance simulates a gradual shift. That paired with the 4 port design would makes sense why they performed so well. Would like to see this test done with hand loads to have a more consistent charge to compare. Might be negligible but would still be interested in seeing those results.
Gavin, I would think that the first bare muzzle came out highest and with shortest time frame, would be because there is absolutely nothing restricting the gasses moving forward and no restriction to the gasses due to air deflection surrounding the air around the muzzle. It would be interesting to do a smoke test in ultra slow mo, to see how the air dynamics are surrounding the muzzle.
For sound testing you should contact Al Paulson he has written several books on sound testing of suppressors. Larson and Davis make a great sound meter; SoundTrack® LxT Firearm Noise Sound Level Meter. As far as how to measure the rise of the rifles muzzle would be a high speed camera with a graph behind it to show the movement. Good luck
laptop said 79 Degrees and I became jealous. If only I could go outside to shoot in anything less than 100 degrees. Great work Gavin.
This has a TON of potential. really cool stuff. Thank you and looking forward to see where this goes.
Im curious how the Apollo Max would compare to the VG6 Lambda PRS30 brake. they are very similar in weight and dimensions and are both 4 ports
I think the bare barrel recoil profile peaks earlier because all the brakes add some "barrel length" before the first port.
Great experiment. Your test proved my theory correct about the EC tuner brake. I noticed more recoil when I switched out my APA Little Bastard Gen 2 for it on a 9lb 300 WSM. Your test showed it was mediocre when it came to reducing recoil.
Hi Gavin,
I really enjoyed this test and seeing the results grafted. I was also a little surprised by those results because I assumed other breaks would out preform the Apollo breaks. Quite a surprise. It would be interesting to run a decibel test from behind the rifle at the time of running other tests on the breaks. The noise levels and overall break efficiency together would be fruitful in deciding what break to purchase. Really great job Gavin.
Just picked up the Apollo Max for the 5.56. Very interested in seeing how it does in that Caliber. Sound suppression for the devices is near nonexistent so I’d love to see that tested if possible. Very data driven great info, good stuff!
did you intend to put the Ultradyne brakes on upside down?... I thought the 2 ports in the front of the brake point to the sky? thats definitely why they kicked up so much dirt/dust
Great video. Question, is there a change in velocity with different types of brakes as well? Keep up the great work.