My method is actually the last one that Travis showed. The one where you let the lands push bullet in. But it is neck tension dependent. I also put die wax in bullet ogive to prevent it from sticking in the lands. The method of seating bullet deeper and deeper until bolt closes is the Alex Wheeler method. As you said, there are a tons of ways to measure this. Multiple ways to remove outer layer from feline. 😁
Not a comment for Erik (he clearly knows what he is doing), but a comment on his process. I suspect the benefits of either the second (loctite) or third (Erik Cortina... or similar Alex Wheeler method) is consistency/repeatability in that in the second and third, it is a combination of the camming action of the bolt plus whatever you neck tension is. If you are good at consistent neck tension, then you should get repeatable results. For the first, when using the rod to push the bullet in, that level of force is variable from one person to another and maybe even from one test to another from the same person. I personally use the Alex Wheeler method and have found it to be very repeatable while the rod method is not. The downside of the Wheeler method is you have to do things like remove the extractor, etc. from the bolt because the ONLY force you want to feel is that of the bullet touching, barely touching or not touching the lands as you close the bolt (and not compressing an extractor spring for example). It also requires a bolt that closes easily/smoothly. Lastly, I can imagine using the bolt to seat the bullet vs. the Alex Wheeler method maybe creating different measurements because using the bolt to seat the bullet, is pushing you slightly into the lands, while the Wheeler method may allow you to measure where the lands are just touching. I should probably give Erik's method a try as it might be easier to do in the long run.
ONE CRITICAL THING WITH THE LOCTITE. you need to de-prime the brass! If not, the air inside the case will push out the loctite into the chamber. dont ask me how i know this..
I haven' tried this method but was thinking the same. We use those anaerobic adhesives on a great many things in my trade and some of them are no joke. Since they put this to the masses they should have spent much more time on it and emphasized which ones to use and exactly how to do it with no fudge room.
Loctite method seems fine. You can then use a sharpie to write the length right on the case, and keep the whole thing as a reference forever. Ideal. Thanks for bringing this to us.
@@John_Redcorn_ Ah! What a treasure trove I'd have if I could have every note and slip of paper I ever wrote something on (and remembered what the hell it meant). But I don't. "Writing things down" is a great idea -- that VERY often doesn't amount to much, lol.
@@John_Redcorn_ LOL. I'm left to wonder just WTF is wrong with you. I gave my idea of how I'd like to do something, and you feel a need to come along to say "No. You should do this instead." Not with the claim of an insight into a better way, and therefore that your way is better, but (seemingly) just to say "Do it my way instead of your way." Good luck with your fucking journal -- perhaps one day you'll have the urge to stick it up your ass! As for me, I prefer a direct object clearly on display (or put in a small drawer specifically for such types of objects) rather than a written DESCRIPTION of the same object, which, to be always available would have to be indexed and catalogued in such a way that the information can be retrieved.
Regarding the locktite method. I always pop the primer out. This allows air to escape out of the back of the case when the bullet is seated in the lands. Stops loctite from seeping out of the case neck into the chamber of the rifle.
EXCELLENT video - that cutaway shows with complete clarity how a cartridge and bullet sit in the chamber with the tolerances that reloaders talk about. As a raw beginner, that first 4 minutes utterly crystallised so much that I've been trying to understand from books. Many Thanks from the UK.
When using the OAL gauge, try using this with the rifle in a vertical position. What this does by having the muzzle pointing upwards, you can lightly lift the bullet to the contact point and not jam the bullet into the lands. If your bullet is sticking into the lands, you really have no idea how deep that is going.
On my race pistol got a neat cutaway realy quick. Once.neet to see how chamber reamer worked well. Going deeper when groups got bad . Nothing loose now . go Deeper.got very good groups. Do em all long now. This sport got to be an " arms race"
I started reloading in the early 60’s before oal comparators, with all my knowledge coming from reloading books and magazines, totally absorbed into shooting and reloading. Early on, I started trying multiple methods, some discussed here, but I found that if you just took whatever bullet you were going to use, drop it down the bore and just tap it lightly to jam the lands, I took a wooden dowel, advanced down the muzzle till it touched the bullet, then make a mark on the dowel with a sharp pencil at muzzle, then push bullet out of the barrel with the dowel, remove bullet, close the bolt , push dowel till it is up against bolt face, then remove dowel. Measuring the distance with my trusty Craftsman dial caliper precisely gives me my max coal for that particular bullet. I would then and now, especially it seems with all Berger bullets, they do better with up to .080 of jump. This easy method has always worked for me. I would like to have one of those nice Delrin rods though. Would seem to be perfect to use for same method.
Great method. To me its finding the accurate seating depth, not the lands. I let the target tell me where to seat the bullet when working up a load. I think many of them have a good sized jump. Or not. lol
Great information for reloaders, even if we are not building a rifle or taking our reloading to that degree. Understanding this and seeing it really helps to understand how everything really works together for accuracy!
I’ve used a brass rod and two locking collars. You close the bolt and insert the rod to the bolt face and set a collar at the barrel end. Then insert a bullet and use a pencil or rod to hold pressure on the bullet from the action end. Insert the rod to the bullet tip and set another collar. Measure between them and you have your jam. But Eric’s method is much simpler.
I like this way. I have tried the modified case but didn’t really like it so I just got this one do come up the the same theory as yours. “Frankford Arsenal Cartridge Overall Length Gage”. I like your idea with brass rod and lock rings. I’ll have to find your components and check it out.
I agree with Eriks method and have used it for some 40+ years, I do however use a modified version of that for super super exact loadings, What I do for those is I use my normal push back method and add to it by blackening the bullet with a sharpie or carbon black. I insert the test cartridge, close the bolt and note the land marks on the bullet after it has been pushed back. I then repeat 3 x and note the lengths....depending on the marks of the lands on the bullet will let u judge on whether or not your 3 bullets are seating on the lands consistently and with the same force. Always always always measure your length consistencies exactly like you showed in the video, using the apex of the bullet ogive. Beginning shooters might want to measure from the bullet tip but NEVER NEVER do it as tip profiles in the same batch of bullets can vary significantly, the ogive or slope profiles never changes at least in the same lot of bullets......Use a diffrent lot......start all over..... Just saying !!!!!!!
Gavin, that's the first and best visual demonstration I've seen on this subject. I really liked it, you guys. Maybe another video on where factory ammo is set and the difference of the precise measurement and effects of the differences on performance and barrel ?
Using the OAL gauge, you're pushing the bullet into the lands, whereas with the other methods, you're not. That is why you're seeing a difference. I've learned to use the gauge and NOT push so hard. Push until you meet resistance then release and then lock the push bar in place. I find that you will see the same kind of measurements as the locktite method.
That's why I want to find my O.A.L. with a fire formed case and resized with just enough neck tension to hold the projectile in place so I'm not jamming it into the lands, just touching. But at the same time I'm not putting to little neck tension so that when I hit it with calipers, it doesn't push the bullet inside the case. I do that 3 times and measure 3 times. If the measurements are the same or pretty close +/- .001 I know I'm good. If the measurements are off, then I know the neck tension is to tight because If the first measurement is 3.290" and the next is 3.330 that means the lands are grabbing the bullet....The bullet shape could be off that much BUT I doubt it.
You can also use some graphite dry lube on the part of the bullet that makes contact with the lands (Ogive) to help prevent the bullet from sticking in your bore.
Gavin I do two things. I use a fire formed case. Next I take out the firing pin and the extractor out of the bolt. Then I put the case and bolt in the gun. If the bolt does not fall closed freely closed I will bump the shoulder of the case .0005 how ever many times it takes until the bolt falls closed. When that part is done the most free clearance you will have with the case is .00045. Then I start the same prosses over with the bullet. I will start with a measurement using the Hornaday gauge. Then I put the case and bullet in the gun. If the bolt does not fall closed then I will seat the bullet by .002 to .003 at a time. You will know when your about perfect. The bolt will start to fall half way then 2/3. At this point I go to .0005 seating change. When the bolt falls closed you will never be more than .00045 off the lands for that bullet batch #. The only reason for doing this is to know that exact length the bullet ogive touches the lands. I've been shooting bench from 1968 to know. The truth of the matter is the way you showed it the video works the same as I've done. Now matter how you find the lands we all start seating bullets + or - from the measurement we both got from our method we used to find the node the gun shoots at. I will say one thing. I made a tool using a seating die plunge and a dial indicator and comp to check ogive to tip of bullet where the plunger sits. I then write this down and check any other bullet I choose. Using math any other bullet I use I will know where to seat the bullet to start making up a new load just off the lands. I love your work keep it up. I built my first rifle in 1978 22PPC. One other thing, the tool I made and the seating die I use for any give caliber I had reamers made to redo there inside where the bullet hit so they are exactly the same. Good luck Rick D.
Dear Richard, I think you may have the decimal point in the wrong place. Also it is not poss to measure that accurately with a calliper , 0.0005 i.e. Half a thousandth at real best. Regards
@@redhunterknives6675 My dies are able to bump a half thousandth at a time or .0005 my first bump on a fire formed brass is .0015. The point was find just off the lands. If your bolt does not fall closed by it self (no firing pin or extractor) after you know the shoulder of case is not at fault, then your bullet is still touching the lands. PS .0005 is a half thousandth. All my chambers In my bench guns are custom. I use Dave Manson reamers that I have ground to my specs. .0005 +.0005= .001 Shoot tight groups.
I’ve used the sharpie method for several decades, but bought hornady’s oal gauge 3-4 years back. I made my own dummy cases (fired in my chambers) and bored and tapped on my lathe. I use a hardwood dowel in conjunction with the gauge to push the bullet back and forth to get a good feel for the contact of the bullet and the lands.
For 40 years I have held an unloaded case above a candle to get a good sooty effect. Close the bolt gently, extract, and see if you are touching the lands, and by how much. Seat bullet slightly deeper and repeat the process. When the bolt closes easily and there is only the lightest mark of the lands, you know you are good to go to calculate further seating depth. This may be too inaccurate for the most exacting bench-rest shooters, but it gives me one-hole groups from my .222 Rem. I also prefer to headspace using the bolt rather than the shoulder of the cartridge.
Cheap trick: Glue the bullet in the casing, load it before the glue has dried, wait for it to dry, pull out. Put it in bullet seating dye, adjust the dye until you feel resistance.
I used to sharpie mark the ogive and look for land marks on the bullet. I've since been using the Hornady OAL gauge and I find the OAL gauge much easier and more accurate on my .223 and .308.
I originally used the last method but got tired of having bullets stuck in the barrel and starting over.. then i used the hornady gauge method.. from now on i will start using the loctite method. I like the idea of having a hard copy of each specific bullet/chamber combo i reload for. Going to loctite it in then laser engrave the bullet/rifle combo on the case! Thanks gavin
I use the seating die and a resized empty unprimed case. In increments bullet seating further out until it does not chamber and I get rifling/lands marks on the bullet or the opposite and seating further down until it does chamber and no marks are visible but this takes a number of new unmarked bullets. Then I back it off to my desired COL. As stated, bullet type makes a big difference and results are based on each bullet type. I don't get stuck bullets in the lands this way since the bullet is seated. I only do it to know my chamber size. I do not chase the lands like I used to. Some rifles do not like it close to the lands while others do so I shoot different COL loads until I find the "sweet" chamber spot or accuracy node and that sweet spot will change between types of bullets and over time throat erosion. I have a .223 chamber that absolutely hates bullets close to the lands for that short jump. It likes a long jump to hit its best accuracy. Same for a .22-250 chamber.
Thanks for the ongoing videos. Great stuff. I will say I have driven myself crazy trying to get consistent readings with the OAL gauge. (Especially true with VLD bullets.) TINY variances in pressure on the push rod change the distance to the lands a fair bit. It’s a hassle to remove the firing pin and ejector button (Wheeler method) or Barrel for the fingernail lift method (Mark Gordon method, explained in the Precision Rifle Blog), but I have found these methods very consistent.
The third method seems the easiest and fastest to do. just load a case with a loose bullet in the chamber and close the bolt. The great thing I can see about this one is that I could quickly do it as I am setting up my press for a loading session for a whole batch of a particular bullet. Then when you change to a different bullet type, quickly do the same
I've used Travis' method for years. I recently picked up the Hornady tool and haven't quite tested it like you guys but it's interesting to see that the bullet can be pushed further in and logically that makes sense. Thanks for the videos guys!
One issue with using the close the bolt method is that the seating depth might be increased by the pressure of the bolt. Furthermore, then when the bolt is retracted the bullet might ease out slightly from the case. It would seem the loktite method provides a good maintain of the bullet in the case. But I cringe at any red loktite in my chamber!
Just starting to get into hand loading and it is easy to get lost in the weeds… This video is. very helpful. How do you approach initial cartridge length measurements for a new system? Imagine new rifle, brass, etc… for the initial firing of new brass, the recommended approach is to seat the bullets at the lands… I understand that it is critical to get a measurement from the bolt face to the lands which the gauge method cannot provide. The difference between the gauge measurement and the bolt methods implies extra headspace even on a fired case… it has been mentioned elsewhere that it can take more than a single firing for a case to fully expand to the chamber dimension and there should be some spring back expected as well. Keep up the great work!
I use the OAL method with their factory cases. My problem with that tool is you never get the same reading twice so I take 5 reading and take the average of the closes setting. I'm going to try the Locktite method as that seems like it would be very accurate. Would like to have seen you take multiple reading of each type to see if you get the same reading (or close) every time.
Same, I always take 5 readings with it as well, I find the first one or two are off and then the rest are pretty consistent, I usually blame myself tbh
I use the oal and get the same reading. My problem is when I seat my bullet with my die i keep getting different lengths I'm using match dies everything is tight and secure. Any thoughts?
@@jeremydunn5903 call the die manufacturer and ask how to properly use it. They should have a support line. Get it from them rather than.. " um, ah " suggestions. This shit ain't funny when things go wrong.
When I was getting started I would lightly tap a fired case neck on the bench it would provide enough resistance to let the bullet slide into the lands but also allow it to come out. I would do it 3 times to ensure consistency.
I use a partially sized case, I only size about 1/16 - 1/8 inch of the case mouth. This way the bullet slides into case a bit easier so the bullet is less apt to stick into the rifling. My cast bullet loads take a bit more care on the neck tension. I'll repeat this check several times to average out the measurement, then set a bullet a bit long then using a sharpie on the bullet and progressively seat deeper till I find a length to just mark the place that the bullet fully seals to the throat.
I am really new to precision reloading. Why do you want to "Chase The Lands" and is this why I see different OAL for different bullets for the same caliber? Really appreciate the video.
Also...for those considering the Hornady gauge, if you send Hornady two fired unsized cases, they will modify your case and send it back to you for $15. I got mine back in about two weeks.
@@ivymike3459 The tap is 5/16-36tpi - You can get them from McMaster-Carr and probably other places that sell machinist tooling. You will likely not find it at the local hardware store.
Very Good Information. I love the third method (that I have always used) since it requires no special devices or tools and it is easy IF you are shooting different weights, lengths and ogive geometry, Use a once-fired case, tension the neck ONLY and let the lands seat the bullet. Important that you are careful that the land tension does not pull the bullet out of seating during the extraction of the test cartridge. Perform this a few times and look for consistency. I love watching your knowledge evolve Gavin; its evident form early the early vids to the latest. Shoot on!
I always used the modified case that Hornady sales and their OAL tool until I seen the video on how Eric Cortina's does it. He even says he lubes the bullet with sizing die wax to help keep the bullet from sticking and it works really good with bolt action rifles. I still use the Hornady modified case method when I'm working up a load on AR15s. Great video as always keepem coming guys!!!
I used to use the hornady tool with modified cases, but swapped over to the wheeler method a couple years ago. Just seemed the most consistent. Also amazing how many people I have seen with the hornday gauge backwards on the caliper. Not difficult to put the screw in the right side so the gauge is centered to the caliper blade.
I think on the last method where you have a seated bullet long and then close the bolt on it you need to make sure that you don't have a lot of neck tension.
I use a very similar process as the 3rd one he showed. The only difference is I take a very thin Emery cutting wheel and cut the neck to relieve some of the tension from the size case.
I use the same as you... It's very simple and easy to do. But I usually paint the bullet with a white board pen, just to see if the bullet was pushed out when you extract the case!
It's no wonder you were reading longer with the Hornady gauge! If you read the instructions: ------------------------------ “We recommend using no more than 3 or 4 lbs. pressure on the bullet adjustment rod (about that of a light trigger pull). Then, gently tap the bullet adjustment rod with your index finger to ensure the bullet is in light contact with the lands. The most preferred method is to use the bullet adjustment rod in one hand and a wooden dowel inserted through the muzzle in the other hand, “sandwiching” the bullet. This allows a positive feel as the bullet contacts and releases from the rifling. Remember to use the same pressure or “tapping technique” on the bullet adjustment rod each time you use the tool. Keep in mind that you can “drive” the bullet into the lands as much as .025" by using excessive pressure or a “heavy-handed” approach. The key is to find a relatively light, yet positive “touch point” of the bullet’s ogive with the origin of the rifling. It is from this “touch point” that adjustments can be made in bullet seating depth.” ------------------------------ In the video, you could see you pushing so hard you were flexing the rod! Probably using 10lb or more! For the modified case, although I have made my own, you can use the Hornady ones with just as much accuracy - simply measure the difference with a headspace comparator.
Good info. I've had differences of far more than the .025" mentioned...It likely could depend on caliber & the lengths involved. I've had .338 Lapua 300 grain Scenar give a difference of over .200" between the point it can be first felt, vs pushing until it stops (not pounding in with sledge-hammer). I jam a couple in and take measurements just to give a sense to ensure that what I feel is the actual lands, and not resistance in the tool. I've had some bullets that slide more easily than others. Berger really seem to have a hard time moving in the modified case, which makes getting a "touch point" almost impossible. The rod can also give some resistance and I've seen some suggest to sand it down a bit.
Sorry late to using You tube I was taught (1970) to use a, neck sized fire formed case, light seat of bullet, soot with candle (let cool). Then put five in one by one normal locking of the bolt (first locking lugs should be polished to give even pressure) then measure OAL of the five, and average them. Set the bullet seating depth accordingly. Depending on the quality of the rifle, one of the locking lugs will inevitably seat tighter so should be found and corrected before worrying about the lands effect on accuracy, as it will change the measured value. I liked the idea of using the Locktite though.
I use the bolt to seat the bullet into the lands. Reason, when i started loading now over 70 years ago, things like comparators didnt exist. But matches for blackening the bullet did.
First thought, do yourself a favor and use the Accuracy One seating depth comparator. It measures between the case shoulder and bullet ogive. So much more precise and quicker than the CBTO method/tool. Saves you on the math too. Hornady OAL is great and is best if you use a fired case with the shoulder bumped .001" so it's sure to chamber smoothly and headspace off of the shoulder. If you don't size (ever so slightly) the body of the case could stop the shell from fully reaching the shoulder and thus giving false readings. You can use the Hornady virgin case for this but there will be some math and corrections needed to get accurate numbers. Case base to shoulder lengths on a fired case need to be noted so that corrections can be made to the base to shoulder length of the virgin case. This "difference" needs to either be added to or subtracted from the CBTO measurement you get to the lands with the virgin case. Again, works fine but there's math you have to be aware of. Throw a virgin, belted magnum case gauge in the mix and it will not get true readings, you can't. That's why it's best to use a fired, slightly sized case with this method. Here's the method I use now and have found to be the most precise and consistent: Use a fired, very slightly sized case and polish the outside with steel wool. I don't want it sticky in the chamber at all. Seat a bullet a little longer than it needs and lightly push the case into the chamber by finger. It should "stick" because the bullet is in the lands. You'll need a cleaning rod to push it back out. Now, seat your bullet in the die shorter until it will not stick anymore. You want to find the spot where it is not sticking but .001" longer will. When you go to push the cartridge out with the rod, it will come with no resistance. This is a true measurement of no jump nor jam. I can feel a difference in .0005" difference in seating on the cleaning rod when you get to the right spot.
I’m confused. The OAL gauge is longer, so you’re not pushing as hard. Also, it makes sense the way it work to put the bullet against the lands as gently as possible. Seems this would be the best way to be honest as the bullet is set to just kiss the lands and nothing more. I think you might have read those numbers backwards.
The Eric Cortina method is actually shown on a UA-cam video long ago. Look up Alex wheeler's video and watch it. There's things that you need to do before doing the bolt drop test. Things like removing you ejector and firing pin. This method is absolutely the best for determining the exact moment that the bullet comes in contact with the lands. However Eric Cortina did show perhaps a better method , where he doesn't even know where the lands are in relationship to the bullet that I find is either better, or equally useful. You cant look up that video from Eric on UA-cam as well under the title Stop chasing the lands. I've used multiple different methods, and use a portion of each for my own reloading practices. I work off of the thought that you can never have to much information. Keeping track of multiple measurements allows you to build empirical data that helps over time to make better informed decisions based on measurements
The shoulder of a case fired from the rifle will come to rest at that exact spot in the barrel. I don't have to have any special tools to perform the loc-tite method! I don't have to take my bolt apart! Just push the style bullet I want to load in, it will set up and viola! Subtract the amount I want that bullet off the rifling, test several depth to find the sweet spot. Write it down for that bullet.
I started this modest little reloading channel myself, for beginners to cover things I didn't understand and were difficult to find. I just started precision, magnum reloading for a 300 PRC and 6.5 PRC. I'm going to share this on my channel and I really appreciate you guys demonstrating the importance of OAL measuring and using such a visually descriptive method to show this. I'm learning more and more myself and I happen to be at this step, as the .300 PRC seems to be VERY finicky about Ammo. I'm realizing that using book load data was giving me 0.0945" of jump on the 212 grain ELD-X and 0.215" of jump on the 250 grain A-tips.
I learned to reload on the 6.5 prc and recently the 300 prc. the long jump is typical on magazine fed rounds. To get the bullets up to touchpoint, with the new longer bullets, they won't fit in the magazine. Fortunately there are some good nodes at long jumps. As the throat erodes you may have to adjust seating depth. The long bearing surfaces seem to keep these new long bullets lined up despite the long jump until engagement of the lands.
I use the Hornady gage but I don’t push it in. Buy hand I gently turn the barrel down so it’s straight down then let the rod down easy that way gravity is the only push
I use a cleaning rod with a jag that's filed smooth at the end. On the rod, I placed two nylon bushings. With the bolt closed, I run the rod to the bolt face and the two bushings to the muzzle end. I then put a bullet in the chamber and push it forward until it touches the lands. Holding the bullet in place, I run the cleaning rod until it touches the tip of the bullet and position the second bushing closest to the muzzle against the muzzle end. Measure the length from the beginning of one bushing to end of second one. The OAL from the bolt face to the lands is the measured length minus the total length of the two bushings.
TIP: for the Hornady bullet comparator; I just measured 3 different 223 bullets of different weights and manufacturers and found a total of CBTO variance of some .030. All bullets must have identical O'Gives. Then I removed the plastic plunger and filed down the rounded end into a more pointed end and remeasured a 3 bullets again @ 8 each and found the new total variance of the same bullets to be .010. In two of the bullets the CBTO variance was less than 5%. Very accurate now. My conclusion is the bullet bases are not 100% perpendicular to the concentricity of the bullet and the plastic plunger end is too large to get an accurate reading on a small point from the base of the bullets. This was all done in a brand-new JC Custom barrel just purchased and not installed. I wish Hornady would install a smaller metal pointed end on their plunger for a little extra money.
That's not the way I understood his video, I think he sizes his brass the same way he always does, with. 002 bump but sans powder and primer, that way its consistent.
Fired case. Tap neck to slightly flatten mouth of case. Cover bullet with Sharpie ink. Seat bullet in case by hand (long) so neck holds bullet. Slowly chamber round until bolt closes. Open bolt and remove round. If bullet stuck in bore, tap it out carefully. Flat edge of case neck will have removed Sharpie ink on bullet. Reseat bullet in case up to end of Sharpie scratch. Measure. Repeat a couple of times to ensure consistency. Been doing this for 25 years, until I was given an OAL gauge. Results are the same.
Awesome video. I wanted to save some money for projectiles and powder so I took a case and instead of a full resize I just gave it enough to hold on to the projectile. Not too tight, but not enough to pull out. Paint with a sharpie and push it in and lock it down. I ran it multiple times to verify the bullet wasn’t pulling back out as I have had that happen in early stages. But just like you guys said pick a method and stick with it because you can get varying numbers different ways. Biggest thjng is making sure when you bring the dummy round back out, the rifling hasn’t pulled the bullet out. Sharpy helps you see that!
Very enlightening. Well done. One comment: (at 2:58 timestamp) It was stated that the ogive is being compressed. It. Is VERY difficult (darn near impossible) to compress metal. Metal is actually being moved (i.e., making burrs in the bullet) by contact with the rifling. This point may seem trivial to some, and is often misunderstood by laymen.
Minimizing jump/finding the lands is one of the more persistent myths (IMO). I was a full on adherent until reading an article back in 2016 that indicated that not all bullets, particularly the newer VLD/ELD designs, responded well to that approach and actually gave better results with more jump. Having acquired a megnetospeed to fine tune my 6.5/RPR loads (never really trusted my Chrony), I set up a test with my, to that point, most accurate load. The change I made was to set the COAL at the 'book' value in the loading manual using Hornady's ELD-M bullet. I then setup of 5 shot loads of incremental COAL increase/Decrease from that point of .001 changes until the COAL maxed out "at the Lands" limit I had previously established with a dummy round. What I found was that the RPR/ELD-M had a very specific 'range' that gave best SD/ES and accuracy and it was NOT anywhere close to the lands. It was a range of approx .003" around the book COAL which was astonishing to me have 'grown' up reloading for over 35 years at that point, believing that best accuracy was ALWAYS found seating the bullet out close to the lands. This did not change when my barrel went past its 'speed bump' that most go through around 300 rounds or so. Like any load customization, what your particular rifle likes is going to be very individual, so really anyone's 'best load' is pretty much an ancedotal one off for that rifle/component combination. But before anyone goes all in on the "get as close to the lands as you can" paradigm, test your rifle with a good chronogrpah like the Magnetospeed or Labradar and spend some time testing various COAL setups. You might be surprised by what you find. IMO - YMMV
Wonder how many folks have glued a cartridge case in their chamber by now? Furthermore, how many of those used an anaerobic sealant that's permanent and will only release when the metal is heated to a point that it's no longer safe to use as a firearm.
I take a fired case and neck size only. I then use a dremel with a cut off wheel and cut two slots from the case mouth to the shoulder in a straight line with the cartridge and 180 degees from each other. Then deburr the slots. This allows the bullet to be pushed in when chambering. The bullet touches the lands and the tension holds the bullet enough to remove cartridge and check seating depth. Works well and can be used with any bullet over and over again
Love using the last method that Travis showed. Very simple and works great. Regardless of what method is used - CONSISTANCY is the most important factor - choose a method and stick with it.
Always enjoy your topics. An aside, noticed your bench vise, so am asking…. What size of vice do you recommend for a startup DIYer and what features do you suggest? Thanks in advance.
Or; you can just drop your chosen projectile into the breach and tap it very gently until it sticks in the lands. Then, take a cleaning rod and insert it into the muzzle end of the barrel until it contacts the tip of the projectile. Once done, mark the rod at the muzzle-line with a bit of tape. Then remove the projectile and allow the rod to continue on down the barrel until it contacts the face of the bolt. Mark the rod again with another bit of tape. The COL is the distance between the two bits of tape.
Differences in bullet lengths from one bullet to another (of the same mfg / model) can be quite a lot..........especially with lead tipped and hollow point bullets.
That is to the tip of the bullet, not the ogive that meets the rifling. That's why you need a comparator set, with the oal gauge. By pushing it into the sized case, or glueing into a form fired case, it gives you the exact measurement to the ogive on each different bullet. Then you seat slightly deeper to get your distance proper off the rifling. Your going to be off the rifling a long way with your method.
For cheap people like myself, you can buy steel wire the diameter of the primer hole and a lock collar the same diameter for a couple of bucks at a hardware store. No need to modify the case. I prefer the loctite version because it incorporates the bolt into the solution. Seems to be the most accurate method in my mind. Thanks for the video. Very good info
The method I use is, I will take a fire formed case, clean it with Brasso, clean my chamber and bore wipe it all down real good. I then take my fire formed brass run it up into my resizing die, (Yes....full length resizing...lol) just enough to give some neck tension because it resizes the neck first, just enough to keep the bullet from sticking in the bore, but not to much that I'm jamming the projectile into it. Seat the projectile long in my seating die (does not matter if your lock ring is tight). You're not looking for concentricity you're just looking to seat your bullet long, the bore will take care of that. I do that (measure) 2 or 3 times to make shure that when the bullet is making contact with the lands and I am unchambering my dummy round that the bullet is not being pulled out of the case. Take the OAL measurment, and experiment with jump. Different chambers and platforms like different things. There is no one jump that fits all. It's what your rifle likes to eat. Happy reloading.😁 I least like the method of fully sizing the neck and smashing the bullet into the lands. Eric Cortinas method is probably the most accurate, I could be wrong, but I think my method is a bridge between what is shown here and Eric's.
I have a sacrificial case for each caliber which I cut petals into the neck. I can easily tension a bullet enough so it will just contact the lands but be held enough to keep it in when extracted.
Sinclair OAL gauge does not get enough love. Takes a bit of math to calc the base to ogive, but results are consistent and no need for a modified case. Great video though!
Without a wordy description, I use the method described in the Speer manual I got back in 1989 when my reloading journey began. I have only modified It slightly over the years but didn’t change the overall method it works for me.
My method is the last one shown right down to the sharpie or black soot to mark the projectile. Bullet brand and model gets written down in my note book along with OAL for ease of setting up seating die the next time I use that particular projectile. I use this for all of my rifles and all of my single shot handguns chambered in rifle calibers....very repeatable and easy to do without the need for additional tooling. Will be teaching this to a new shooter next week when he brings his .308 win and loading gear to me for his first time experiencing the joys of handloading good ammunition.
I always use cerrosafe and make a casting of the chamber. That will tell you exactly where the lands are. The methods shown here will tell you the c.o.a.l. with a particular bullet. Change the weight or brand of bullet and the c.o.a.l. changes and you have to do this all over again if you change bullet weights or manufacturers. Not every 150 grain bullet has the same dimensions one manufacturer to the next! Casting the chamber is a one time thing! Then you know with ANY bullet weight or brand where the lands are and you can measure freebore by casting too! As well as the dimensions of your chamber so you can check for other things like throat erosion as well!
On my Tika T3 223 stainless... I seat to the max length of the clip and sometimes maybe a little more on the first drop in round. I can cut a Grove in the front of the clip... to get closer to the jam point, if I want. The jam point makes the finished rounds to long... regardless of accuracy. My rifle is extreemly accurate even with box ammo so no need to jam into the lands.
I use a variant of this method. my seating die is sub land diam. I seat the bullet onto the lands with a rod, then drop the seating plug onto the bullet, then set a rod down the barrel. Measure rod to crown. punch out the bullet, measure rod to bolt face. do math. reassemble seat die, set die to measurement (minus 3 ten thousandths).
I did the Hornady gauge and the black sharpie method and then split the difference for my 28 Nosler.I figured .006 off for the Berger VLDs I'm shooting and I have no problem shooting at any target.Once I got my Kilo 2400 set up I'm shooting out to 1500 no problem.Gone as far as 1870 and made hits.
Gavin, I use the Hornady gauge, but I do a simple correction using the Hornady case headspace gauges), I measure the headspace dimension of the Hornady drilled & tapped gauge case vs. one of my fire-formed case from my rifle. I apply that headspace correction to the base-to-ogive dimension I measure with the Hornady COAL gauge, which gives me the base-to-ogive length for MY brass. Sure, I could drill & tap my good brass, but simply applying the delta of the headspace length between Hornady's inexpensive gauge case and my fired/resized cases lets me keep my brass for shooting. The Hornady gauge cases cost about the same as a cup of coffee, so not having to set up my lathe for drilling and tapping (using a Wilson case length gauge as a chuck) is worth it!
last method is fastest to a result in the .001range of other methods, easy choice due to johny's reloading bench who is slightly different though conceptually close. One of the earliest things I learned was seating depth is a variation with manipulatable & testable features so start somewhere with a goal in mind and test away.
I was shown to use the OAL gauge and the rod down the barrel together, so you push the case into the chamber, then using both rods "feel" for the lands with as little force as possible. When you have it lock the OAL and remove. Do this 3 times and compare results. Seems to work fine.
I also use the 3ed method, but I very lightly tighten up the very end of the neck with my die set so the bullet won't stick in the barrel, I also use a black marker to see the rifling. 👍
It's also my experience that the Hornady tool gives you a longer length. I got longer length with the modified cartridge they sell, so I made my own, same results up to .020 off. It was dependent on how much pressure I applied to the rod. Which is next to impossible to duplicate. Gave the whole setup away. I went back to using a resized case with whiteout on the bullet for witness marks. I then seat a bullet -.005 from that measurement repeat the process with dry erase on the ogive to verify no lands marks.
Use a combination of the Loctite and Hornady gauge. Drill out the primer pocket, use Loctite as stated, but push the bullet into the rifling using a small rod through the primer pocket. I use the RCBS Precision Mic, but the results are never consistent.
The hornady gauge is less accurate because you are measuring with zero head space because you jam the neck of the case against the neck of the chamber, plus I noticed that the calipers did not appear to be dead straight measuring the case whilst on the gauge rod which might explain why the measurement was longer with the gauge method. The eric cortina method of simply chambering a round with the bullet set long is so simple and accurate, because the bolt is in place, the round is held with actual headspace of the actual rifle. If you prep a case, seat a bullet then pull the bullet then reseat the bullet and use that for the measurement the bullet slides in easier… just keep that case as a tool for measuring headspace, one for each different bullet type you will run…. then you can use that same case to set up your bullet seating die.
I have used the method of using a shot cartridge and sliding bullet in chamber. Then use bolt to push cartridge to seat bullet. Remove bolt and measure. On remington riffles, I have found a lot of free bore. Not able to seat bullet out to lands and still fit in magazine. But with that said, my 300 rem mag set to factory length is a true tack driver. At 100 yds, I can literally hit the head of a tack. I have taken several deer at 800+ yd. I've actually watched deer fall in scope when pulled trigger at those distance. I've tried on few savage and it seems their free bore is less. But as far as accuracy, each manufacturer seems to do well.
I've been using the Cortina method for a while then got told to use an AOL gauge so bought one and found it to inconsistent so went back to the Cortina method as it was just way more consistent.
I know this is not as technical as you have it but we would set the bullet in the casing according to the book specs and take a magic marker and blacken out the bullet. We would slowly slide the casing into the chamber. You will get two scratch marks on the bullet as you close. The long scratch on the bullet will be made as it slides into the chamber. The short scratch will be as the bullet comes up to the land and finishes. We would pull the cartridge back out and look for the scratch marks, It would tell us how far up on the land it would go depending what kind of bullet and the shape it was.
You use a slip case. Take a Dremel tool and cut a vertical slit down to the shoulder. Debur the inside of the neck. Now you can put bullets into the slip case, load it, and the lands will push them farther in, and you can pull the case out with the bullet and know the OAL where the bullet touches the lands.
The Hornady gauge is nice to have, but the issue with it is that everyone applies a different amount of force to seat the bullet...and it is not repeatable. Each user will have a different perception of "a reasonable amount of pressure"...which leads to inconsistent readings. Doing it 5 times and taking the average is a reasonable compromise. Using the long seated bullet or loctite method will result in the bolt applying a very consistent amount of force, the same force that is applied during normal shooting. For many people, those using rifles that require a magazine (AR-15/10 or AICS), it may not matter...just load to the maximum length the magazine will allow the bullet to feed. This will always be shorter than your chamber will allow. Chasing the lands is stupid...just go watch Eric Cortina's video.
Using the OAL gauge I push the bullet in until I feel it just touch and can remove it without the bullet sticking. If the bullet sticks and your just a few thousandths longer, you'll know exactly the touch point within a thousandths.
I use a sharpie and colour the bullet ogive on a dummy fired round in that chamber seated long in a case with very slight neck tension.The sharpie will show the engraving of the rifling.Very carefully remove the dummy round then measure.I usually do this three times to check for varibles.This has worked for the last 40 years for me.Then I seat the bullets .010 deeper to start my load ladder.When I have determined my best load I will then seat in incriments of .005 deeper for another load ladder until I have found my best accuracy....Good video
A couple of decades ago when I was REALLY into making the best ammo I could, I used Sinclair’s comparator. It’s similar in that it uses the bullet in the chamber, take a measurement. Runs fired case in and take a measurement then subtract the part of the bullet that will be in the neck and measure the over all length. I would prefer to measure off of the olive but their option was full length, bullet seated. I really like that Loctite method for the shooting I do now. Thanks, Jeff
I’ve been using the Cortina formula: jam-0.020 but it does take 5 repetitions for me. The loctite looks like one n done! Minus 20 of course. If you don’t minus 20 then you run an inaccuracy risk of some touching and some not.
I don't reload just buy off the shelf. Probably a stupid question , is it possible to adjust bullet depth on off the shelf ammo?? Probably can't after crimp, I don't know . Just wondering. Thanks
I have been using the Sinclair COL guage now for 7 years and it gives an exact measurement every time and does not require modified cases or anything like that. I have found it to be the way to go. I am a 1000yd benchrest competition shooter and its my way for both my 6bra light gun and 7saum unlimited gun
For those using the Hornady/Stoney Point gauge method it's great if you can drill and tap a spent case from your own gun as the gauge. If all you have is the one supplied by Hornady then just measure the difference in headspace between a spent case from your own gun (primer removed), and their gauge. Account for the difference with the Hornady case measurement.
I'm repeating sort of E. Cortina measurements every second time when start a new set of cases. In my world it is 20 (soots per one case) x 40 (cases) x 2 = 1600 shoots. I made this 3 times already. Difference is small, but valuable:)
Eric explains it here. This is part one, and then there's a part two. I'd call it “chasing”, but he draws a line as to how far he goes down that path. ua-cam.com/video/oRXlCG9YZbQ/v-deo.html
There are two other methods one is an RCBS Mic Gauge that you can use to find where the oglive will be and use a comparator to get your bullet to that spot. And another way much like your others you can cut two slits in the neck of the case and have a snug fit on the bullet and it will pretty much do the same as a couple of your other methods. If the tension is right on the bullet it may give you a better reading snug enough that it won't push hard into the rifling and enough tension the bullet won't pull out because of being stuck a little in the riffling. One can make one of these cases from a fireformed case and carefully use a Dremel with a small disk cutter to cut the slits. Of course you will need to clean up any burrs from cutting as well. I usually use a Hornady gauge set up, but honestly it's just a reference point because the inserts are not precise to the riffling. Riffling in barrels varies. We often concern ourselves with too much thinking when making bullets. Case prep and bullet selection are the most important factors. Been there and done that. Super precision do it all!
![[Don't Try This] Pushing the 308 Win to 300 Win Mag (Bat Machine, Alpha Munitions)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uXkmcpk7Brc/mqdefault.jpg)
My method is actually the last one that Travis showed. The one where you let the lands push bullet in. But it is neck tension dependent. I also put die wax in bullet ogive to prevent it from sticking in the lands. The method of seating bullet deeper and deeper until bolt closes is the Alex Wheeler method. As you said, there are a tons of ways to measure this.
Multiple ways to remove outer layer from feline. 😁
Nice! I was surprised at how consistent this method was.
Not a comment for Erik (he clearly knows what he is doing), but a comment on his process. I suspect the benefits of either the second (loctite) or third (Erik Cortina... or similar Alex Wheeler method) is consistency/repeatability in that in the second and third, it is a combination of the camming action of the bolt plus whatever you neck tension is. If you are good at consistent neck tension, then you should get repeatable results. For the first, when using the rod to push the bullet in, that level of force is variable from one person to another and maybe even from one test to another from the same person. I personally use the Alex Wheeler method and have found it to be very repeatable while the rod method is not. The downside of the Wheeler method is you have to do things like remove the extractor, etc. from the bolt because the ONLY force you want to feel is that of the bullet touching, barely touching or not touching the lands as you close the bolt (and not compressing an extractor spring for example). It also requires a bolt that closes easily/smoothly. Lastly, I can imagine using the bolt to seat the bullet vs. the Alex Wheeler method maybe creating different measurements because using the bolt to seat the bullet, is pushing you slightly into the lands, while the Wheeler method may allow you to measure where the lands are just touching. I should probably give Erik's method a try as it might be easier to do in the long run.
Erik's method is what I've been using for the past 10yrs.
For this method, do you use form sized brass or re-sized brass ?
And the feline is much maligned. Thank YOU for sharing! I used my lighter to smoke the bullet!
ONE CRITICAL THING WITH THE LOCTITE.
you need to de-prime the brass! If not, the air inside the case will push out the loctite into the chamber.
dont ask me how i know this..
I haven' tried this method but was thinking the same. We use those anaerobic adhesives on a great many things in my trade and some of them are no joke. Since they put this to the masses they should have spent much more time on it and emphasized which ones to use and exactly how to do it with no fudge room.
@@indydurtdigger2867 yeah it's a mess to remove, as its like lacquer when dried. Can't be easily solved by chems either.
Thex
@@jmkhenka nail varnish remover eats loctite threadlocker
@@pj4433 Some of them yes. Others are chem resistant if not outright insoluble.
Loctite method seems fine. You can then use a sharpie to write the length right on the case, and keep the whole thing as a reference forever. Ideal. Thanks for bringing this to us.
Exactly what I done, except I just used some regular glue instead of loctite, but then all the info is on the case
Why not just right it down in your reload book?
@@John_Redcorn_ Ah! What a treasure trove I'd have if I could have every note and slip of paper I ever wrote something on (and remembered what the hell it meant). But I don't. "Writing things down" is a great idea -- that VERY often doesn't amount to much, lol.
@@GetMeThere1 well thats why they make reload journals with places to write these things down. Lol 😂
@@John_Redcorn_ LOL. I'm left to wonder just WTF is wrong with you. I gave my idea of how I'd like to do something, and you feel a need to come along to say "No. You should do this instead." Not with the claim of an insight into a better way, and therefore that your way is better, but (seemingly) just to say "Do it my way instead of your way." Good luck with your fucking journal -- perhaps one day you'll have the urge to stick it up your ass! As for me, I prefer a direct object clearly on display (or put in a small drawer specifically for such types of objects) rather than a written DESCRIPTION of the same object, which, to be always available would have to be indexed and catalogued in such a way that the information can be retrieved.
Regarding the locktite method. I always pop the primer out. This allows air to escape out of the back of the case when the bullet is seated in the lands. Stops loctite from seeping out of the case neck into the chamber of the rifle.
EXCELLENT video - that cutaway shows with complete clarity how a cartridge and bullet sit in the chamber with the tolerances that reloaders talk about. As a raw beginner, that first 4 minutes utterly crystallised so much that I've been trying to understand from books. Many Thanks from the UK.
Yes, it was awesome
When using the OAL gauge, try using this with the rifle in a vertical position. What this does by having the muzzle pointing upwards, you can lightly lift the bullet to the contact point and not jam the bullet into the lands. If your bullet is sticking into the lands, you really have no idea how deep that is going.
So cool to see a actual cutaway while you guys explain what’s going on. That definitely makes it clear what every little step on the print is for!
On my race pistol got a neat cutaway realy quick. Once.neet to see how chamber reamer worked well.
Going deeper when groups got bad . Nothing loose now . go
Deeper.got very good groups. Do em all long now. This sport got to be an " arms race"
I started reloading in the early 60’s before oal comparators, with all my knowledge coming from reloading books and magazines, totally absorbed into shooting and reloading. Early on, I started trying multiple methods, some discussed here, but I found that if you just took whatever bullet you were going to use, drop it down the bore and just tap it lightly to jam the lands, I took a wooden dowel, advanced down the muzzle till it touched the bullet, then make a mark on the dowel with a sharp pencil at muzzle, then push bullet out of the barrel with the dowel, remove bullet, close the bolt , push dowel till it is up against bolt face, then remove dowel. Measuring the distance with my trusty Craftsman dial caliper precisely gives me my max coal for that particular bullet. I would then and now, especially it seems with all Berger bullets, they do better with up to .080 of jump. This easy method has always worked for me. I would like to have one of those nice Delrin rods though. Would seem to be perfect to use for same method.
I like your method!
Great method. To me its finding the accurate seating depth, not the lands. I let the target tell me where to seat the bullet when working up a load. I think many of them have a good sized jump. Or not. lol
Took a picture of your method. I would think it’s the most accurate method without special tools. Delton rods are easy to order.
This method is the only method I use.
Great information for reloaders, even if we are not building a rifle or taking our reloading to that degree. Understanding this and seeing it really helps to understand how everything really works together for accuracy!
I’ve used a brass rod and two locking collars. You close the bolt and insert the rod to the bolt face and set a collar at the barrel end. Then insert a bullet and use a pencil or rod to hold pressure on the bullet from the action end. Insert the rod to the bullet tip and set another collar. Measure between them and you have your jam. But Eric’s method is much simpler.
....and remember that we just do this once to get the measurements to use to adjust seating depth.🤙
I like this way. I have tried the modified case but didn’t really like it so I just got this one do come up the the same theory as yours. “Frankford Arsenal Cartridge Overall Length Gage”. I like your idea with brass rod and lock rings. I’ll have to find your components and check it out.
I agree with Eriks method and have used it for some 40+ years, I do however use a modified version of that for super super exact loadings, What I do for those is I use my normal push back method and add to it by blackening the bullet with a sharpie or carbon black. I insert the test cartridge, close the bolt and note the land marks on the bullet after it has been pushed back. I then repeat 3 x and note the lengths....depending on the marks of the lands on the bullet will let u judge on whether or not your 3 bullets are seating on the lands consistently and with the same force. Always always always measure your length consistencies exactly like you showed in the video, using the apex of the bullet ogive. Beginning shooters might want to measure from the bullet tip but NEVER NEVER do it as tip profiles in the same batch of bullets can vary significantly, the ogive or slope profiles never changes at least in the same lot of bullets......Use a diffrent lot......start all over..... Just saying !!!!!!!
Gavin, that's the first and best visual demonstration I've seen on this subject. I really liked it, you guys. Maybe another video on where factory ammo is set and the difference of the precise measurement and effects of the differences on performance and barrel ?
Using the OAL gauge, you're pushing the bullet into the lands, whereas with the other methods, you're not. That is why you're seeing a difference. I've learned to use the gauge and NOT push so hard. Push until you meet resistance then release and then lock the push bar in place. I find that you will see the same kind of measurements as the locktite method.
Yes. Erik Cortina talks about the difference between finding the lands and what he calls the “jam method”.
That's why I want to find my O.A.L. with a fire formed case and resized with just enough neck tension to hold the projectile in place so I'm not jamming it into the lands, just touching. But at the same time I'm not putting to little neck tension so that when I hit it with calipers, it doesn't push the bullet inside the case. I do that 3 times and measure 3 times. If the measurements are the same or pretty close +/- .001 I know I'm good. If the measurements are off, then I know the neck tension is to tight because If the first measurement is 3.290" and the next is 3.330 that means the lands are grabbing the bullet....The bullet shape could be off that much BUT I doubt it.
You can also use some graphite dry lube on the part of the bullet that makes contact with the lands (Ogive) to help prevent the bullet from sticking in your bore.
@@semperfi6288 don’t know why but I like that idea better than case lube
Gavin I do two things. I use a fire formed case. Next I take out the firing pin and the extractor out of the bolt. Then I put the case and bolt in the gun. If the bolt does not fall closed freely closed I will bump the shoulder of the case .0005 how ever many times it takes until the bolt falls closed. When that part is done the most free clearance you will have with the case is .00045. Then I start the same prosses over with the bullet. I will start with a measurement using the Hornaday gauge. Then I put the case and bullet in the gun. If the bolt does not fall closed then I will seat the bullet by .002 to .003 at a time. You will know when your about perfect. The bolt will start to fall half way then 2/3. At this point I go to .0005 seating change. When the bolt falls closed you will never be more than .00045 off the lands for that bullet batch #. The only reason for doing this is to know that exact length the bullet ogive touches the lands. I've been shooting bench from 1968 to know. The truth of the matter is the way you showed it the video works the same as I've done. Now matter how you find the lands we all start seating bullets + or - from the measurement we both got from our method we used to find the node the gun shoots at. I will say one thing. I made a tool using a seating die plunge and a dial indicator and comp to check ogive to tip of bullet where the plunger sits. I then write this down and check any other bullet I choose. Using math any other bullet I use I will know where to seat the bullet to start making up a new load just off the lands. I love your work keep it up. I built my first rifle in 1978 22PPC. One other thing, the tool I made and the seating die I use for any give caliber I had reamers made to redo there inside where the bullet hit so they are exactly the same. Good luck Rick D.
Dear Richard, I think you may have the decimal point in the wrong place. Also it is not poss to measure that accurately with a calliper , 0.0005 i.e. Half a thousandth at real best. Regards
@@redhunterknives6675 My dies are able to bump a half thousandth at a time or .0005 my first bump on a fire formed brass is .0015. The point was find just off the lands. If your bolt does not fall closed by it self (no firing pin or extractor) after you know the shoulder of case is not at fault, then your bullet is still touching the lands. PS .0005 is a half thousandth. All my chambers In my bench guns are custom. I use Dave Manson reamers that I have ground to my specs. .0005 +.0005= .001 Shoot tight groups.
I’ve used the sharpie method for several decades, but bought hornady’s oal gauge 3-4 years back. I made my own dummy cases (fired in my chambers) and bored and tapped on my lathe. I use a hardwood dowel in conjunction with the gauge to push the bullet back and forth to get a good feel for the contact of the bullet and the lands.
For 40 years I have held an unloaded case above a candle to get a good sooty effect. Close the bolt gently, extract, and see if you are touching the lands, and by how much. Seat bullet slightly deeper and repeat the process. When the bolt closes easily and there is only the lightest mark of the lands, you know you are good to go to calculate further seating depth. This may be too inaccurate for the most exacting bench-rest shooters, but it gives me one-hole groups from my .222 Rem. I also prefer to headspace using the bolt rather than the shoulder of the cartridge.
This was how I was originally taught as well - but now I just use a sharpie
I use the locktite method, however instead of using locktite I use a paper patch around base of bullet to keep it snug in the neck.
Cheap trick: Glue the bullet in the casing, load it before the glue has dried, wait for it to dry, pull out. Put it in bullet seating dye, adjust the dye until you feel resistance.
I imagine one could do the same with loctite, could they not? I mean, it’s basically good in and it’s not like you’ll be cranking on the seating die.
@@ronsorrentino6207 shure, you can try it!
I used to sharpie mark the ogive and look for land marks on the bullet. I've since been using the Hornady OAL gauge and I find the OAL gauge much easier and more accurate on my .223 and .308.
I originally used the last method but got tired of having bullets stuck in the barrel and starting over.. then i used the hornady gauge method.. from now on i will start using the loctite method. I like the idea of having a hard copy of each specific bullet/chamber combo i reload for. Going to loctite it in then laser engrave the bullet/rifle combo on the case! Thanks gavin
I use the seating die and a resized empty unprimed case. In increments bullet seating further out until it does not chamber and I get rifling/lands marks on the bullet or the opposite and seating further down until it does chamber and no marks are visible but this takes a number of new unmarked bullets. Then I back it off to my desired COL. As stated, bullet type makes a big difference and results are based on each bullet type. I don't get stuck bullets in the lands this way since the bullet is seated. I only do it to know my chamber size. I do not chase the lands like I used to. Some rifles do not like it close to the lands while others do so I shoot different COL loads until I find the "sweet" chamber spot or accuracy node and that sweet spot will change between types of bullets and over time throat erosion. I have a .223 chamber that absolutely hates bullets close to the lands for that short jump. It likes a long jump to hit its best accuracy. Same for a .22-250 chamber.
Thanks for the ongoing videos. Great stuff. I will say I have driven myself crazy trying to get consistent readings with the OAL gauge. (Especially true with VLD bullets.) TINY variances in pressure on the push rod change the distance to the lands a fair bit. It’s a hassle to remove the firing pin and ejector button (Wheeler method) or Barrel for the fingernail lift method (Mark Gordon method, explained in the Precision Rifle Blog), but I have found these methods very consistent.
The third method seems the easiest and fastest to do. just load a case with a loose bullet in the chamber and close the bolt. The great thing I can see about this one is that I could quickly do it as I am setting up my press for a loading session for a whole batch of a particular bullet. Then when you change to a different bullet type, quickly do the same
I've used Travis' method for years. I recently picked up the Hornady tool and haven't quite tested it like you guys but it's interesting to see that the bullet can be pushed further in and logically that makes sense. Thanks for the videos guys!
One issue with using the close the bolt method is that the seating depth might be increased by the pressure of the bolt. Furthermore, then when the bolt is retracted the bullet might ease out slightly from the case. It would seem the loktite method provides a good maintain of the bullet in the case. But I cringe at any red loktite in my chamber!
Loctite on a hard smooth surface in a non anaerobic isn’t going to adhere amazingly well. No issues getting it out with normal cleaning.
Just starting to get into hand loading and it is easy to get lost in the weeds… This video is. very helpful. How do you approach initial cartridge length measurements for a new system? Imagine new rifle, brass, etc… for the initial firing of new brass, the recommended approach is to seat the bullets at the lands… I understand that it is critical to get a measurement from the bolt face to the lands which the gauge method cannot provide. The difference between the gauge measurement and the bolt methods implies extra headspace even on a fired case… it has been mentioned elsewhere that it can take more than a single firing for a case to fully expand to the chamber dimension and there should be some spring back expected as well. Keep up the great work!
I use the OAL method with their factory cases. My problem with that tool is you never get the same reading twice so I take 5 reading and take the average of the closes setting.
I'm going to try the Locktite method as that seems like it would be very accurate.
Would like to have seen you take multiple reading of each type to see if you get the same reading (or close) every time.
Same, I always take 5 readings with it as well, I find the first one or two are off and then the rest are pretty consistent, I usually blame myself tbh
same. No confidence in the OAL. Hopefully, this demo will make me more comfortable with the OAL.
I use the oal and get the same reading. My problem is when I seat my bullet with my die i keep getting different lengths I'm using match dies everything is tight and secure. Any thoughts?
@@jeremydunn5903 call the die manufacturer and ask how to properly use it. They should have a support line.
Get it from them rather than.. " um, ah " suggestions. This shit ain't funny when things go wrong.
@@jeremydunn5903 Also, if you have a seating die insert, make sure it's the correct one.
When you’re using the bolt to “jam” it into the lands, coat the bullet with case lube or wax, and the bullet shouldn’t get stuck.
When I was getting started I would lightly tap a fired case neck on the bench it would provide enough resistance to let the bullet slide into the lands but also allow it to come out. I would do it 3 times to ensure consistency.
For the last 30 years I’ve used an empty case and superglue instead of Loctite
I use a partially sized case, I only size about 1/16 - 1/8 inch of the case mouth. This way the bullet slides into case a bit easier so the bullet is less apt to stick into the rifling.
My cast bullet loads take a bit more care on the neck tension. I'll repeat this check several times to average out the measurement, then set a bullet a bit long then using a sharpie on the bullet and progressively seat deeper till I find a length to just mark the place that the bullet fully seals to the throat.
I am really new to precision reloading. Why do you want to "Chase The Lands" and is this why I see different OAL for different bullets for the same caliber? Really appreciate the video.
Also...for those considering the Hornady gauge, if you send Hornady two fired unsized cases, they will modify your case and send it back to you for $15. I got mine back in about two weeks.
It's so easy to make your own.
Screw Hornady!
Where is the link for the ‘special’ case head tap he mentioned ?
@@ivymike3459 The tap is 5/16-36tpi - You can get them from McMaster-Carr and probably other places that sell machinist tooling. You will likely not find it at the local hardware store.
Not if you live outside of the USA. Service is only available to USA residents. If you live elsewhere you have to make your own.
Very Good Information. I love the third method (that I have always used) since it requires no special devices or tools and it is easy IF you are shooting different weights, lengths and ogive geometry, Use a once-fired case, tension the neck ONLY and let the lands seat the bullet. Important that you are careful that the land tension does not pull the bullet out of seating during the extraction of the test cartridge. Perform this a few times and look for consistency. I love watching your knowledge evolve Gavin; its evident form early the early vids to the latest. Shoot on!
I always used the modified case that Hornady sales and their OAL tool until I seen the video on how Eric Cortina's does it. He even says he lubes the bullet with sizing die wax to help keep the bullet from sticking and it works really good with bolt action rifles. I still use the Hornady modified case method when I'm working up a load on AR15s. Great video as always keepem coming guys!!!
I used to use the hornady tool with modified cases, but swapped over to the wheeler method a couple years ago. Just seemed the most consistent.
Also amazing how many people I have seen with the hornday gauge backwards on the caliper. Not difficult to put the screw in the right side so the gauge is centered to the caliper blade.
This is what I do and I shoot short range benchrest and moving a bullet .003 into or out of the lands is critical!
I think on the last method where you have a seated bullet long and then close the bolt on it you need to make sure that you don't have a lot of neck tension.
I use a very similar process as the 3rd one he showed. The only difference is I take a very thin Emery cutting wheel and cut the neck to relieve some of the tension from the size case.
I use the same as you... It's very simple and easy to do. But I usually paint the bullet with a white board pen, just to see if the bullet was pushed out when you extract the case!
It's no wonder you were reading longer with the Hornady gauge! If you read the instructions:
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“We recommend using no more than 3 or 4 lbs. pressure on the bullet adjustment rod (about that of a light trigger pull). Then, gently tap the bullet adjustment rod with your index finger to ensure the bullet is in light contact with the lands. The most preferred method is to use the bullet adjustment rod in one hand and a wooden dowel inserted through the muzzle in the other hand, “sandwiching” the bullet. This allows a positive feel as the bullet contacts and releases from the rifling. Remember to use the same pressure or “tapping technique” on the bullet adjustment rod each time you use the tool. Keep in mind that you can “drive” the bullet into the lands as much as .025" by using excessive pressure or a “heavy-handed” approach. The key is to find a relatively light, yet positive “touch point” of the bullet’s ogive with the origin of the rifling. It is from this “touch point” that adjustments can be made in bullet seating depth.”
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In the video, you could see you pushing so hard you were flexing the rod! Probably using 10lb or more!
For the modified case, although I have made my own, you can use the Hornady ones with just as much accuracy - simply measure the difference with a headspace comparator.
Good info. I've had differences of far more than the .025" mentioned...It likely could depend on caliber & the lengths involved. I've had .338 Lapua 300 grain Scenar give a difference of over .200" between the point it can be first felt, vs pushing until it stops (not pounding in with sledge-hammer). I jam a couple in and take measurements just to give a sense to ensure that what I feel is the actual lands, and not resistance in the tool. I've had some bullets that slide more easily than others. Berger really seem to have a hard time moving in the modified case, which makes getting a "touch point" almost impossible. The rod can also give some resistance and I've seen some suggest to sand it down a bit.
Sorry late to using You tube
I was taught (1970) to use a, neck sized fire formed case, light seat of bullet, soot with candle (let cool). Then put five in one by one normal locking of the bolt (first locking lugs should be polished to give even pressure) then measure OAL of the five, and average them. Set the bullet seating depth accordingly. Depending on the quality of the rifle, one of the locking lugs will inevitably seat tighter so should be found and corrected before worrying about the lands effect on accuracy, as it will change the measured value.
I liked the idea of using the Locktite though.
I use the bolt to seat the bullet into the lands.
Reason, when i started loading now over 70 years ago, things like comparators didnt exist.
But matches for blackening the bullet did.
First thought, do yourself a favor and use the Accuracy One seating depth comparator. It measures between the case shoulder and bullet ogive. So much more precise and quicker than the CBTO method/tool. Saves you on the math too.
Hornady OAL is great and is best if you use a fired case with the shoulder bumped .001" so it's sure to chamber smoothly and headspace off of the shoulder. If you don't size (ever so slightly) the body of the case could stop the shell from fully reaching the shoulder and thus giving false readings.
You can use the Hornady virgin case for this but there will be some math and corrections needed to get accurate numbers. Case base to shoulder lengths on a fired case need to be noted so that corrections can be made to the base to shoulder length of the virgin case. This "difference" needs to either be added to or subtracted from the CBTO measurement you get to the lands with the virgin case. Again, works fine but there's math you have to be aware of. Throw a virgin, belted magnum case gauge in the mix and it will not get true readings, you can't. That's why it's best to use a fired, slightly sized case with this method.
Here's the method I use now and have found to be the most precise and consistent:
Use a fired, very slightly sized case and polish the outside with steel wool. I don't want it sticky in the chamber at all. Seat a bullet a little longer than it needs and lightly push the case into the chamber by finger. It should "stick" because the bullet is in the lands. You'll need a cleaning rod to push it back out. Now, seat your bullet in the die shorter until it will not stick anymore. You want to find the spot where it is not sticking but .001" longer will. When you go to push the cartridge out with the rod, it will come with no resistance. This is a true measurement of no jump nor jam. I can feel a difference in .0005" difference in seating on the cleaning rod when you get to the right spot.
I’m confused. The OAL gauge is longer, so you’re not pushing as hard. Also, it makes sense the way it work to put the bullet against the lands as gently as possible. Seems this would be the best way to be honest as the bullet is set to just kiss the lands and nothing more. I think you might have read those numbers backwards.
The Eric Cortina method is actually shown on a UA-cam video long ago. Look up Alex wheeler's video and watch it. There's things that you need to do before doing the bolt drop test. Things like removing you ejector and firing pin.
This method is absolutely the best for determining the exact moment that the bullet comes in contact with the lands.
However Eric Cortina did show perhaps a better method , where he doesn't even know where the lands are in relationship to the bullet that I find is either better, or equally useful. You cant look up that video from Eric on UA-cam as well under the title Stop chasing the lands.
I've used multiple different methods, and use a portion of each for my own reloading practices. I work off of the thought that you can never have to much information. Keeping track of multiple measurements allows you to build empirical data that helps over time to make better informed decisions based on measurements
The shoulder of a case fired from the rifle will come to rest at that exact spot in the barrel. I don't have to have any special tools to perform the loc-tite method! I don't have to take my bolt apart! Just push the style bullet I want to load in, it will set up and viola! Subtract the amount I want that bullet off the rifling, test several depth to find the sweet spot. Write it down for that bullet.
So after finding the lands, where do i start with seating depth?
I started this modest little reloading channel myself, for beginners to cover things I didn't understand and were difficult to find. I just started precision, magnum reloading for a 300 PRC and 6.5 PRC. I'm going to share this on my channel and I really appreciate you guys demonstrating the importance of OAL measuring and using such a visually descriptive method to show this. I'm learning more and more myself and I happen to be at this step, as the .300 PRC seems to be VERY finicky about Ammo. I'm realizing that using book load data was giving me 0.0945" of jump on the 212 grain ELD-X and 0.215" of jump on the 250 grain A-tips.
Wow! That’s a big difference in jump. Gets even bigger with erosion from shooting.
I learned to reload on the 6.5 prc and recently the 300 prc. the long jump is typical on magazine fed rounds. To get the bullets up to touchpoint, with the new longer bullets, they won't fit in the magazine. Fortunately there are some good nodes at long jumps. As the throat erodes you may have to adjust seating depth. The long bearing surfaces seem to keep these new long bullets lined up despite the long jump until engagement of the lands.
I use the Hornady gage but I don’t push it in. Buy hand I gently turn the barrel down so it’s straight down then let the rod down easy that way gravity is the only push
I use a cleaning rod with a jag that's filed smooth at the end. On the rod, I placed two nylon bushings. With the bolt closed, I run the rod to the bolt face and the two bushings to the muzzle end. I then put a bullet in the chamber and push it forward until it touches the lands. Holding the bullet in place, I run the cleaning rod until it touches the tip of the bullet and position the second bushing closest to the muzzle against the muzzle end. Measure the length from the beginning of one bushing to end of second one. The OAL from the bolt face to the lands is the measured length minus the total length of the two bushings.
TIP: for the Hornady bullet comparator; I just measured 3 different 223 bullets of different weights and manufacturers and found a total of CBTO variance of some .030. All bullets must have identical O'Gives.
Then I removed the plastic plunger and filed down the rounded end into a more pointed end and remeasured a 3 bullets again @ 8 each and found the new total variance of the same bullets to be .010. In two of the bullets the CBTO variance was less than 5%. Very accurate now.
My conclusion is the bullet bases are not 100% perpendicular to the concentricity of the bullet and the plastic plunger end is too large to get an accurate reading on a small point from the base of the bullets.
This was all done in a brand-new JC Custom barrel just purchased and not installed.
I wish Hornady would install a smaller metal pointed end on their plunger for a little extra money.
Hey guys, good video, however, Eric uses the bolt drop you mentioned to set 2 thou shoulder bump in a full length sizing die NOT to find jam
That's not the way I understood his video, I think he sizes his brass the same way he always does, with. 002 bump but sans powder and primer, that way its consistent.
How could the bolt bump the lands back at all?
And yes, sans is a word....lol.... look it up but you may already know, good luck in your shooting!
You guys make a good team, very enjoyable and educational. Thank you for sharing the video and please keep up the good work !
Question - When using a fired casing, you resized the cartridge, neck, etc. Correct?
You should went on and showed us how to take those measurements and adjusted the seating die.
Fired case.
Tap neck to slightly flatten mouth of case.
Cover bullet with Sharpie ink.
Seat bullet in case by hand (long) so neck holds bullet.
Slowly chamber round until bolt closes.
Open bolt and remove round. If bullet stuck in bore, tap it out carefully.
Flat edge of case neck will have removed Sharpie ink on bullet.
Reseat bullet in case up to end of Sharpie scratch.
Measure.
Repeat a couple of times to ensure consistency.
Been doing this for 25 years, until I was given an OAL gauge.
Results are the same.
Awesome video. I wanted to save some money for projectiles and powder so I took a case and instead of a full resize I just gave it enough to hold on to the projectile. Not too tight, but not enough to pull out. Paint with a sharpie and push it in and lock it down. I ran it multiple times to verify the bullet wasn’t pulling back out as I have had that happen in early stages. But just like you guys said pick a method and stick with it because you can get varying numbers different ways.
Biggest thjng is making sure when you bring the dummy round back out, the rifling hasn’t pulled the bullet out. Sharpy helps you see that!
Very enlightening. Well done. One comment: (at 2:58 timestamp) It was stated that the ogive is being compressed. It. Is VERY difficult (darn near impossible) to compress metal. Metal is actually being moved (i.e., making burrs in the bullet) by contact with the rifling. This point may seem trivial to some, and is often misunderstood by laymen.
Minimizing jump/finding the lands is one of the more persistent myths (IMO). I was a full on adherent until reading an article back in 2016 that indicated that not all bullets, particularly the newer VLD/ELD designs, responded well to that approach and actually gave better results with more jump. Having acquired a megnetospeed to fine tune my 6.5/RPR loads (never really trusted my Chrony), I set up a test with my, to that point, most accurate load.
The change I made was to set the COAL at the 'book' value in the loading manual using Hornady's ELD-M bullet. I then setup of 5 shot loads of incremental COAL increase/Decrease from that point of .001 changes until the COAL maxed out "at the Lands" limit I had previously established with a dummy round.
What I found was that the RPR/ELD-M had a very specific 'range' that gave best SD/ES and accuracy and it was NOT anywhere close to the lands. It was a range of approx .003" around the book COAL which was astonishing to me have 'grown' up reloading for over 35 years at that point, believing that best accuracy was ALWAYS found seating the bullet out close to the lands.
This did not change when my barrel went past its 'speed bump' that most go through around 300 rounds or so. Like any load customization, what your particular rifle likes is going to be very individual, so really anyone's 'best load' is pretty much an ancedotal one off for that rifle/component combination. But before anyone goes all in on the "get as close to the lands as you can" paradigm, test your rifle with a good chronogrpah like the Magnetospeed or Labradar and spend some time testing various COAL setups. You might be surprised by what you find.
IMO - YMMV
Wonder how many folks have glued a cartridge case in their chamber by now? Furthermore, how many of those used an anaerobic sealant that's permanent and will only release when the metal is heated to a point that it's no longer safe to use as a firearm.
Very impressed, my friend. An inspiration to me to strive to excel and to encourage others to do the same. May you have great success!
I take a fired case and neck size only. I then use a dremel with a cut off wheel and cut two slots from the case mouth to the shoulder in a straight line with the cartridge and 180 degees from each other. Then deburr the slots. This allows the bullet to be pushed in when chambering. The bullet touches the lands and the tension holds the bullet enough to remove cartridge and check seating depth. Works well and can be used with any bullet over and over again
Love using the last method that Travis showed. Very simple and works great. Regardless of what method is used - CONSISTANCY is the most important factor - choose a method and stick with it.
Always enjoy your topics. An aside, noticed your bench vise, so am asking….
What size of vice do you recommend for a startup DIYer and what features do you suggest? Thanks in advance.
I like Eric cortinas method because it gives you a go no go feel for every other method it seemed to much of a difference in measurements
Or; you can just drop your chosen projectile into the breach and tap it very gently until it sticks in the lands. Then, take a cleaning rod and insert it into the muzzle end of the barrel until it contacts the tip of the projectile. Once done, mark the rod at the muzzle-line with a bit of tape. Then remove the projectile and allow the rod to continue on down the barrel until it contacts the face of the bolt. Mark the rod again with another bit of tape. The COL is the distance between the two bits of tape.
Differences in bullet lengths from one bullet to another (of the same mfg / model) can be quite a lot..........especially with lead tipped and hollow point bullets.
@@ricksweetser1683 agree.
Very easy, very simpiliy done!!! 👍
@@yellowjacket548 Yes, but it doesn't matter with this method.
That is to the tip of the bullet, not the ogive that meets the rifling.
That's why you need a comparator set, with the oal gauge.
By pushing it into the sized case, or glueing into a form fired case, it gives you the exact measurement to the ogive on each different bullet. Then you seat slightly deeper to get your distance proper off the rifling.
Your going to be off the rifling a long way with your method.
For cheap people like myself, you can buy steel wire the diameter of the primer hole and a lock collar the same diameter for a couple of bucks at a hardware store. No need to modify the case.
I prefer the loctite version because it incorporates the bolt into the solution. Seems to be the most accurate method in my mind. Thanks for the video. Very good info
The method I use is, I will take a fire formed case, clean it with Brasso, clean my chamber and bore wipe it all down real good. I then take my fire formed brass run it up into my resizing die, (Yes....full length resizing...lol) just enough to give some neck tension because it resizes the neck first, just enough to keep the bullet from sticking in the bore, but not to much that I'm jamming the projectile into it. Seat the projectile long in my seating die (does not matter if your lock ring is tight). You're not looking for concentricity you're just looking to seat your bullet long, the bore will take care of that. I do that (measure) 2 or 3 times to make shure that when the bullet is making contact with the lands and I am unchambering my dummy round that the bullet is not being pulled out of the case. Take the OAL measurment, and experiment with jump. Different chambers and platforms like different things. There is no one jump that fits all. It's what your rifle likes to eat. Happy reloading.😁 I least like the method of fully sizing the neck and smashing the bullet into the lands. Eric Cortinas method is probably the most accurate, I could be wrong, but I think my method is a bridge between what is shown here and Eric's.
I have a sacrificial case for each caliber which I cut petals into the neck. I can easily tension a bullet enough so it will just contact the lands but be held enough to keep it in when extracted.
Sinclair OAL gauge does not get enough love. Takes a bit of math to calc the base to ogive, but results are consistent and no need for a modified case. Great video though!
Without a wordy description, I use the method described in the Speer manual I got back in 1989 when my reloading journey began. I have only modified It slightly over the years but didn’t change the overall method it works for me.
My method is the last one shown right down to the sharpie or black soot to mark the projectile. Bullet brand and model gets written down in my note book along with OAL for ease of setting up seating die the next time I use that particular projectile. I use this for all of my rifles and all of my single shot handguns chambered in rifle calibers....very repeatable and easy to do without the need for additional tooling. Will be teaching this to a new shooter next week when he brings his .308 win and loading gear to me for his first time experiencing the joys of handloading good ammunition.
I always use cerrosafe and make a casting of the chamber. That will tell you exactly where the lands are. The methods shown here will tell you the c.o.a.l. with a particular bullet. Change the weight or brand of bullet and the c.o.a.l. changes and you have to do this all over again if you change bullet weights or manufacturers. Not every 150 grain bullet has the same dimensions one manufacturer to the next! Casting the chamber is a one time thing! Then you know with ANY bullet weight or brand where the lands are and you can measure freebore by casting too! As well as the dimensions of your chamber so you can check for other things like throat erosion as well!
On my Tika T3 223 stainless... I seat to the max length of the clip and sometimes maybe a little more on the first drop in round.
I can cut a Grove in the front of the clip... to get closer to the jam point, if I want.
The jam point makes the finished rounds to long... regardless of accuracy.
My rifle is extreemly accurate even with box ammo so no need to jam into the lands.
Measure bolt face to muzzle with cleaning rod, mark with post it.
Drop desired bullet into lands.
Measure distance from muzzle to post it.
I use a variant of this method. my seating die is sub land diam. I seat the bullet onto the lands with a rod, then drop the seating plug onto the bullet, then set a rod down the barrel. Measure rod to crown. punch out the bullet, measure rod to bolt face. do math. reassemble seat die, set die to measurement (minus 3 ten thousandths).
I did the Hornady gauge and the black sharpie method and then split the difference for my 28 Nosler.I figured .006 off for the Berger VLDs I'm shooting and I have no problem shooting at any target.Once I got my Kilo 2400 set up I'm shooting out to 1500 no problem.Gone as far as 1870 and made hits.
I have my own method, Sinclair has their method and gun weeks have their method also. If you know and understand what you are doing it's easy.
Gavin, I use the Hornady gauge, but I do a simple correction using the Hornady case headspace gauges), I measure the headspace dimension of the Hornady drilled & tapped gauge case vs. one of my fire-formed case from my rifle.
I apply that headspace correction to the base-to-ogive dimension I measure with the Hornady COAL gauge, which gives me the base-to-ogive length for MY brass. Sure, I could drill & tap my good brass, but simply applying the delta of the headspace length between Hornady's inexpensive gauge case and my fired/resized cases lets me keep my brass for shooting. The Hornady gauge cases cost about the same as a cup of coffee, so not having to set up my lathe for drilling and tapping (using a Wilson case length gauge as a chuck) is worth it!
I’ve always used the 3rd method. I just lightly size the neck and use sharpie marker on the bullet to show lands imprint. Works great and real simple.
last method is fastest to a result in the .001range of other methods, easy choice due to johny's reloading bench who is slightly different though conceptually close. One of the earliest things I learned was seating depth is a variation with manipulatable & testable features so start somewhere with a goal in mind and test away.
I was shown to use the OAL gauge and the rod down the barrel together, so you push the case into the chamber, then using both rods "feel" for the lands with as little force as possible. When you have it lock the OAL and remove. Do this 3 times and compare results.
Seems to work fine.
I also use the 3ed method, but I very lightly tighten up the very end of the neck with my die set so the bullet won't stick in the barrel, I also use a black marker to see the rifling. 👍
It's also my experience that the Hornady tool gives you a longer length. I got longer length with the modified cartridge they sell, so I made my own, same results up to .020 off. It was dependent on how much pressure I applied to the rod. Which is next to impossible to duplicate. Gave the whole setup away.
I went back to using a resized case with whiteout on the bullet for witness marks. I then seat a bullet -.005 from that measurement repeat the process with dry erase on the ogive to verify no lands marks.
Use a combination of the Loctite and Hornady gauge. Drill out the primer pocket, use Loctite as stated, but push the bullet into the rifling using a small rod through the primer pocket. I use the RCBS Precision Mic, but the results are never consistent.
Same method I have used for many decades!! Works flawlessly!! Good comment. 👍👍
The hornady gauge is less accurate because you are measuring with zero head space because you jam the neck of the case against the neck of the chamber, plus I noticed that the calipers did not appear to be dead straight measuring the case whilst on the gauge rod which might explain why the measurement was longer with the gauge method. The eric cortina method of simply chambering a round with the bullet set long is so simple and accurate, because the bolt is in place, the round is held with actual headspace of the actual rifle. If you prep a case, seat a bullet then pull the bullet then reseat the bullet and use that for the measurement the bullet slides in easier… just keep that case as a tool for measuring headspace, one for each different bullet type you will run…. then you can use that same case to set up your bullet seating die.
Super interesting video. Thanks sincerely!
I have used the method of using a shot cartridge and sliding bullet in chamber. Then use bolt to push cartridge to seat bullet. Remove bolt and measure. On remington riffles, I have found a lot of free bore. Not able to seat bullet out to lands and still fit in magazine. But with that said, my 300 rem mag set to factory length is a true tack driver. At 100 yds, I can literally hit the head of a tack. I have taken several deer at 800+ yd. I've actually watched deer fall in scope when pulled trigger at those distance. I've tried on few savage and it seems their free bore is less. But as far as accuracy, each manufacturer seems to do well.
I've been using the Cortina method for a while then got told to use an AOL gauge so bought one and found it to inconsistent so went back to the Cortina method as it was just way more consistent.
I know this is not as technical as you have it but we would set the bullet in the casing according to the book specs and take a magic marker and blacken out the bullet. We would slowly slide the casing into the chamber. You will get two scratch marks on the bullet as you close. The long scratch on the bullet will be made as it slides into the chamber. The short scratch will be as the bullet comes up to the land and finishes. We would pull the cartridge back out and look for the scratch marks, It would tell us how far up on the land it would go depending what kind of bullet and the shape it was.
You use a slip case. Take a Dremel tool and cut a vertical slit down to the shoulder. Debur the inside of the neck. Now you can put bullets into the slip case, load it, and the lands will push them farther in, and you can pull the case out with the bullet and know the OAL where the bullet touches the lands.
The Hornady gauge is nice to have, but the issue with it is that everyone applies a different amount of force to seat the bullet...and it is not repeatable. Each user will have a different perception of "a reasonable amount of pressure"...which leads to inconsistent readings. Doing it 5 times and taking the average is a reasonable compromise. Using the long seated bullet or loctite method will result in the bolt applying a very consistent amount of force, the same force that is applied during normal shooting. For many people, those using rifles that require a magazine (AR-15/10 or AICS), it may not matter...just load to the maximum length the magazine will allow the bullet to feed. This will always be shorter than your chamber will allow. Chasing the lands is stupid...just go watch Eric Cortina's video.
Using the OAL gauge I push the bullet in until I feel it just touch and can remove it without the bullet sticking. If the bullet sticks and your just a few thousandths longer, you'll know exactly the touch point within a thousandths.
I use a sharpie and colour the bullet ogive on a dummy fired round in that chamber seated long in a case with very slight neck tension.The sharpie will show the engraving of the rifling.Very carefully remove the dummy round then measure.I usually do this three times to check for varibles.This has worked for the last 40 years for me.Then I seat the bullets .010 deeper to start my load ladder.When I have determined my best load I will then seat in incriments of .005 deeper for another load ladder until I have found my best accuracy....Good video
EXCELLENT VIDEO GUYS!!!
A couple of decades ago when I was REALLY into making the best ammo I could, I used Sinclair’s comparator. It’s similar in that it uses the bullet in the chamber, take a measurement. Runs fired case in and take a measurement then subtract the part of the bullet that will be in the neck and measure the over all length. I would prefer to measure off of the olive but their option was full length, bullet seated. I really like that Loctite method for the shooting I do now. Thanks, Jeff
Sinclair’s does sell a comparator that measures off the ogive. Sorry. The auto correct got me on the ogive in the first message. Olive? Really?
Sized case, black sharpie marked bullet to show if there's any pull upon ejection.
I’ve been using the Cortina formula: jam-0.020 but it does take 5 repetitions for me. The loctite looks like one n done! Minus 20 of course. If you don’t minus 20 then you run an inaccuracy risk of some touching and some not.
I don't reload just buy off the shelf. Probably a stupid question , is it possible to adjust bullet depth on off the shelf ammo?? Probably can't after crimp, I don't know . Just wondering. Thanks
I have been using the Sinclair COL guage now for 7 years and it gives an exact measurement every time and does not require modified cases or anything like that. I have found it to be the way to go. I am a 1000yd benchrest competition shooter and its my way for both my 6bra light gun and 7saum unlimited gun
For those using the Hornady/Stoney Point gauge method it's great if you can drill and tap a spent case from your own gun as the gauge. If all you have is the one supplied by Hornady then just measure the difference in headspace between a spent case from your own gun (primer removed), and their gauge. Account for the difference with the Hornady case measurement.
Since erosion is a constant factor, won’t you be constantly chasing the lands?
I'm repeating sort of E. Cortina measurements every second time when start a new set of cases. In my world it is 20 (soots per one case) x 40 (cases) x 2 = 1600 shoots. I made this 3 times already. Difference is small, but valuable:)
Eric explains it here. This is part one, and then there's a part two. I'd call it “chasing”, but he draws a line as to how far he goes down that path. ua-cam.com/video/oRXlCG9YZbQ/v-deo.html
There are two other methods one is an RCBS Mic Gauge that you can use to find where the oglive will be and use a comparator to get your bullet to that spot. And another way much like your others you can cut two slits in the neck of the case and have a snug fit on the bullet and it will pretty much do the same as a couple of your other methods. If the tension is right on the bullet it may give you a better reading snug enough that it won't push hard into the rifling and enough tension the bullet won't pull out because of being stuck a little in the riffling. One can make one of these cases from a fireformed case and carefully use a Dremel with a small disk cutter to cut the slits. Of course you will need to clean up any burrs from cutting as well. I usually use a Hornady gauge set up, but honestly it's just a reference point because the inserts are not precise to the riffling. Riffling in barrels varies. We often concern ourselves with too much thinking when making bullets. Case prep and bullet selection are the most important factors. Been there and done that. Super precision do it all!