What happens if you run an oversized brake?
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- Опубліковано 2 бер 2024
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It’s no secret it’s possible to run an oversized caliber brake on your firearm.
The question remains: should you? We put some oversized brakes to the test on our recoil rig, and the results might surprise you. Check out what happens in this video!
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![[Don't Try This] Pushing the 308 Win to 300 Win Mag (Bat Machine, Alpha Munitions)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uXkmcpk7Brc/mqdefault.jpg)
![[Don't Try This] Pushing the 308 Win to 300 Win Mag (Bat Machine, Alpha Munitions)](/img/tr.png)
Really cool video. Can't wait for the undersized break test next
We did it, down to 0.010" clearance, see: ua-cam.com/video/pp4ZSC0Zjds/v-deo.html
Hahahaha yes! How well does a 5.56 break work on an 350 Legend?
Lol
I just want to swage my bullets as they exit…😂
I made on off breaks CP muzzle breaks. I held bore diameter to .312 on a .308 bullet .300 win mag and they worked very well.
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I would be interested in testing sound reduction out of an oversized can.
Several videos exist on that. Not a huge difference in sound from majority I've watched regarding suppressing say 223 from like a 308sup
Larger cans reduce signature, but come at the cost of weight and size, and increasingly limited mounting options. .30cal can with a .264 (if you don't trust your barrel)/.223 end cap is the best way to go when considering the pesky NFA.
I am coming from many years of machinist/engineer/gunsmith. The science of recoil starts with the weight of the gun, size of bullet, amount of powder, and so on. Most people try to compare the recoil without matching the weight of the guns. A 20 LB gun doesn't kick like a 5 LB gun. I enjoyed seeing the degree of data you went with! The gas guns can be configured by changing the amount of gas used by the action, to change felt recoil. There are many ways to skin this cat! I have 6mm, 6.5mm, and 308 calibers that all run 308 muzzle devices. The differences are too small to notice.
Can I ask what your thoughts would be about similar clearances on suppressors? Would the difference in sound also be too small to notice by using a 308 sized clearance on a 223, for example? Thanks
@@cotteeskidI haven't tested cans with the tolerances.
Amount of gas pressure at the muzzle as the bullet exits matters as well as you get a short jet propulsion effect. In fact this is where a LOT of the recoil comes from IMO, which is why a brake makes such a difference, redirecting a large portion of these gases reduces the propulsion effect or even counters if diverted to the rear vs 90* to the side.
@@meanman6992capturing the gases is the key to a Can. many times we forget about the gases that escape before the bullet jumps to the rifling lands. the issues with a Can is controlling what gases escape and how fast the gases are moving. if we use a delayed rolling block to open a port to capture excess gas to the side, we could reduce the need for a Can, but timing would be an issue for BBL length and ammo used. the tolerances for a Can isn't that important for the velocity of the projectile. but we must leave room for the people that overthink the process.
@@kensmith8832It's not just about capturing the gases, but slowing down the gases, and cooling down the gases.
Fun Fact: Back when the Army was developing the M1A / M14 They did some testing on the muzzle device for accuracy / bullet clearance. They discovered that if they reamed out the muzzle break to nearly .40 cal, the accuracy improved. I believe the reason these breaks are so similar in their performance is because they all have nearly identical baffle area for the gas to act against. This is why the JP Ent. "Tanker" muzzle break is one of the best brakes: the sheer size of it's baffle area.
Love the video, as an engineer I love seeing this kind of testing! I would love to test a bunch of my ARs on a rig like that. The differences in recoil (all facets of it) between them are significant and seeing the data on a rifle that is untuned vs one that is tuned to perfection would be incredible.
For the AR system I think your capturing system opens up so much testing possibilities.
Impulse pattern of different gas lengths, buffer weights, buffer styles list goes on.
I wanna see a series of the no recoil ar journey!
Please
Excellent test. Very interesting to see the numbers of the more complex action of the AR platform. One thing to keep in mind is the length of the brake. If you redo the same experiment with a brake half as long you will see a more pronounced difference between clearances. Looking forward to the testing on POI.
I think your videos are amazing please keep it up! I can't wait to see if there's a point of impact with different gaps on the brake, and you're right it's not an apple's to apples it's an apple's to oranges, but I have apples and I have oranges, i like to see what the results are. you're doing an amazing job thank you!
Great information. Thank you for doing this test.
I believe I saw another test done on this that showed oversized brakes had better results for precision. Had something to do with the gases around the projectile as it exits the muzzle.
*Correct. I do high speed research, and there is a buffer of gasses. Depending on the shape of the cone of gasses it either stabilizes or kicks the bullet's butt.*
For that same matter... only buy deep crowned pistol barrels. Such a massive difference.
Plus you protect the rifling from damage.
@@m4rvinmartianThis kinda explains my groupings suppressed. I say kinda because the barrel is still on break in.
Thanks Gavin! great info. cheers
Nice report, I’d love to see something similar with suppressors. Like 9mm 38sp/357 out of .45 cans
I wonder what the results would be with oversized suppressors. I would be interested in the difference in recoil, sound suppression and accuracy. It sounds like you have a bunch of possibilities for future videos.
Awesome test 👌 looking forward to seeing what the results will be for the POI tests.
Nice Video! I didn't expect those results either nice job. Accuracy would definitely be the next step. Thank you for putting science into shooting instead of BS.
I would be interested to see you use the recoil rig to test different buffer weights and or different adjustable gas block settings to see if you can visualize the difference in timing.
Thanks, Gavin. Looking forward to the precision testing. I just put a Ultradyne Mercury on my bolt 223 Wyle but had to bump up to the 6.5mm selection because I had the threading cut at 5/8x24 instead of 1/2x28.
I agree thread size/pitch is the most practical reason why to use a slightly oversized break, for me having 6.5mm and 6mm barrels for the same action makes sense to just have 5/8x24 threads cut on all of them and use a 6.5 brake, 1/2x28 is really small for a barrel diameter of .92 inch at the muzzle end.
On my 20" 6 mm ARC AR, I used a 3 port JP brake that I have had good experiences with. My choice was limited to .308 but I was pleased with both the lack of sight picture disruption ( recoil? It's a 6 ARC) and accuracy. Gas system is rifle length. Don't plan on changing it.
Great info Gavin!
The MAX is the best! Nice work.
I have a Trident .308 4 port brake (around $30 on Amazon or Ebay) on my Savage 110 VSX Hunter Xp (Cabelas/BassPro exclusive) 7mm rem mag. I haven't had the chance to shoot groups further than my 50 yard target in the backyard, but recoil reduction is excellent, and my 50 yard-3 shot groups typically run around .3" with Winchester 175gr cheap ammo. My best group measured .23" .
Hello sir, nice video. Slowly but SURELY, You are turning me into a gun nerd. These brake downs are rather interesting and very fulfilling. I have a feeling you're gonna have a major scientific discovery find in the near, maybe a distant future. You are so fortunate to have the tools necessary to study different aspects of a firearm and its projectiles. I know I shouldn't, however, I do envy you. If I lived near you, I would volunteer every day to helping you. Lol
good job as always!
Hey, another great video can't wait to see what happens to accuracy or group sizes also, being a Trapshooter sure would be interesting to see some shotgun reduction test for ported and non-ported tubes and forcing con modifications. Thank you for all the time you put into these tests.
very informative as an engineering student stuff like this is very cool! Subscribed for more like this.
Only Gavin can do something as important as this.
Interesting video! I’m looking forward to the effects on precision.
I use a .30 caliber suppressor on my 6.5 PRC. Precision is definitely better than with the same suppressor model in 6.5 caliber.
Noise reduction is better with the 6.5 caliber suppressor, of course. The .30 caliber suppressor is still good enough to go hunting without ear protetiction, though.
Interesting results- thank you for sharing!
Ive been wanting to use my 36 cal suppressor even on my 5.56. Talk about an easy flow-through design.
The ammo box in the 22-250 test could REALLY tell the difference between the bare barrel and brakes.😮
A decibel meter at the ear distance from each would be a good test as well.
I was saying "of course you can" before you did lol! Great video!
The 22-250 is burning alot more powder than the 223rem, and no gas is being pulled off for the action so the 22-250 has a significantly higher volume of gas to make the brake work efficiently.
The brakes on the ar-15, might slightly increase gas volume to the action making the bolt unlock faster, account for the internal bump to be higher with the brakes.
It shouldn't increase back pressure since nothing is holding pressure like a longer barrel or can would
I put my old .338 brake on my 7mm rem mag, and it made it very comfortable to shoot. Can spot my impacts. I have never tried a correct size, due to it's effectiveness.
Excellent data ! Very interresting. The faster the calibers go, the more recoil reduction there is with muzzle brakes.
Really interesting with magnums, less with 45-70 😉
Well, that's exactly what you would expect. The faster the projectile, the more energy held by the escaping exhaust gases which can be redirected to reduce recoil. Very simple physics.
Great job, Gavin. I think the AR results are reflecting some interaction of the brake clearance with the gas system.
👍👍 Cool show, I wonder what kind of changes in sound decibels there are from behind the trigger
I had the FX muzzle brake on my full power FX Dreamline .22, pellets were going everywhere, it seems the make of pellet I was using was clipping the end of the brake, probably slightly unstable as it was leaving the barrel. No problem with the accuracy after I removed the muzzle brake!
great video!
If you read area 419 website it says it’s insignificant. Basically the same thing you just pointed out. Great info👍🏽
I found this interesting and something I always wanted to know. Now just curious about accuracy implications. Funny that it's about 20% more recoil with a oversized brake compared to a better fit but still talking values around 25% of a raw muzzle.
I would be more worried about Accuracy Loss since if there's extra clearance there's a funnel for muzzle blast (going 5,500fps) to go around the bullet and possibly induce a wobble
Great video and data thank you!!! Could you repeat this test with silencer bullet clearance and their db sound reports?
Very cool. Thank you.
You should do this same test with different silencers and see if there is a very big difference between brands
Nice! Would be interrested in the Test with Silencers and if possible with tests of Sound reduction and accuracy...
THX!!
Great idea, we'll put that idea on our list!
Initially was having issues with my silencer concerning POI shift and group size. Had it drilled bigger and the groups tightened up great. Doesn’t have any POI shift now from cold bore to shooting all day. I thought my rifle had issues but just opened the bore size of the suppressor and problem solved. .303 silencer opened to .375 used on a 6.5 😅 can’t feel difference in recoil. Snapping/crack sound did go away as well. Hunting use only
Data is always king, but this result does make sense if you look at muzzle flash and blast on high speed footage - the blast is kind of cone/teardrop shaped and much wider than the barrel, so there is plenty of high velocity gas expanding outward for the fins of the brake to catch and redirect, even with an oversize bore diameter.
Awesome data collection. I'd like to see a 10" AR vs a 16" AR with brake. It seems to me there would be quite a bit less impulse with the shorter barrel, but all my friends disagree.
i suspect the impulse "equalizetion" (this diff in the curve tailing) is due to the springiness of the rig itself.
perhaps the gun mounting elements recoil after recoil thus relieving some fraction of the tension off the force detector.
The way you explain clearance, would lead some to think you’d have in your initial example .030-0.060” all the way around the bullet which is false, you’d have 0.015-0.030” as bore diameter - bullet diameter = x divided by 2 to get the clearance around the bullet assuming centered in the bore.
On the AR the BCG/buffer “bottoming out” can be addressed with polyurethane energy absorbing buffer tips vs the much more common and hard derlin polymer tips.
I've found the same trend with silencer design. I run form 1 silencers with a .505" ID so that they can be run with any caliber I own without worry. 223, 9mm, 45, 458 socom, 308, 6.5cm, even 22lr.
I don’t swap my brakes around, so I just buy whatever size is needed. However, if they were as costly and regulated as a suppressor, then this would be more appropriate of a comparison.
problem im seeing is, 9mm "ar" brakes are the same thread pitch and someone that doesnt know there is a difference will plop a 9mm brake on a 5.56 and get unusuall results
@@wisewhiterabbitunusual results? If anything less effective but nothing crazy. Might maybe see PoIS but that's pretty unlikely given how fast the 5.56 will really travel.
@@wisewhiterabbit this is not an issue whatsoever... 9mm brake is .390-.410 depending on manufacturer, some might even be .375, but that is all negligible when you look at the diameter of the 308 brake as well as the raw data provided for it & 6.5creedmoor
i bought a 2pc 9mm brake & blast shield but put it on my 14" 5.56 p&w and it works the same as a 6mm 3 chamber brake - just not nearly as obnoxious for other people around me.
@321JKilla I'm wondering, because studies have shown 2 chamber brakes on a 5.56 and .308 are all the chambers you need, that because of the wider bore that your using all the chambers.
I am curious if these results would hold true across all configurations of brakes, such as later venting, rearward angled venting, and other variants and designs.
Been using a 7.62 brake on all of my various caliber target bolt rifles and hunting rifle for several years. Recoil mitigation is similar to what your tests concluded. Haven’t noticed accuracy any differences.
I’d love to see you do a colab with the slow mo guys
I would love to see this analysis on suppressors
Interesting geometry difference between the brakes... although all 3 use the same number of ports, the shape internally is different due to the larger bore diameter. What looks like the same sized slots from the outside, actually has 3 different port sizes internally meeting the bore.
The losses you'd expect in efficiency of the brake from being oversized (and less able to grab the highest pressure gases from the muzzle exhaust stream, are almost completely offset by the larger side port openings this variable provides. It's not a huge amount, but when talking about pressures seen out the muzzle, it seems to add up. That second pulse timing delay between brakes really suggests one working better than the other 2 to reduce bolt speed (and lengthen the second recoil pulse delay).
I run 30 cal brakes on my 6.5's. Simply due to more options. Haven't seen a noticeable difference in accuracy on them without or without the brakes on, but on my 6.5 Grendel I do get a POI shift.
Interesting, thank you for sharing!
Extremely interesting!
Would be nice to see this done in detail with all the various 30 cal rounds, things like 762x39 compared to. 762 NATO, 308 and 30-06 since they have such a variety of power behind them.
Tried putting these on my Corolla, crashed straight into a tree on the first hill
I would like to see a super lightweight bullet compared to a mid and heavy bullet to compare recoil differences within one gun but among the spectrum of ammo selections. My opinion is that higher velocity could improve the reduction in recoil.
I have the Ultradyne Nighthawk flash hider and C4 sights, very very nice quality and the Nighthawk looks great.
Changing the barrel weight will have a corresponding effect on the harmonics of the barrel. If this is solely about recoil management, my personal preference would be through stock modification (ie ballast) to the stock, which will have negligible affect on barrel harmonics.
The muzzle brake comes into play as the bullet passes through it and out. The mass and velocity of the gasses determine the extent of the braking effect. A 22-250 has a higher weight powder charge, hence more gas.
Can you use the recoil rig with an FFT to show the effect of a barrel tuner on the frequency response of the gun? In theory, moving the mass toward the muzzle should reduce the natural frequency. This test would probably work best with a rigid buttplate. The drawback is that the recoil rig is measuring axial, not lateral vibrations. Just an idea.
First, love the content! Is the wieght of the muzzle device taken into consideration? I realize it maybe minescule amount just courious?
My experience is that muzzle brake can and do help with group size probably does more on barrel hermonics and barrel jump more than anything else hence barrel brake/ tuners.
A few years ago I was searching the internet for muzzle brake for 6mm Creedmoor. I wonted a brake with ports angle rearward & I found the Ultradyne Apollo Max! Put it on my rifle & was amazed with the reduction in recoil. With out the brake I was over 1" moa & with it sub 1/2" groups. My best groups have been 1/4" @ 100yds. This is with a factory Savage 12 rifle & my handloads! My handloads are not any thing special, 105gr. factory seconds FC brass $ StaBall 6.5 powder!!!
Nice results!
Great to hear!
12:01 Can I assume that the peaks at about 5.4 ms are the bullet recoil the breaks are unable to counter and that the peaks at ~6.2 ms is the gas recoil the break do counter?
I would love to be to see a brake test on shotguns. There are several "howitzer" styles brakes and one says 70% recoil reduction. I'd love to see a comparison, since I'm considering a bullpup (nice and short) shotgun for hiking
Idea for "Round 3 of the Oversized Brake Recoil test". Redo your chapter 1 except reduce the outside diameter of the smaller bore sized brakes to make the surface areas that the exhausting gasses work against the same across all the brakes. This would show if it is actually the clearance that makes these slight differences in recoil in these last two tests or if it is the extra surface area on the smaller ID brakes.
I can see complications checking accuracy with different bore diameters in the brakes. For one they would weigh slightly less with more material removed could affect barrel harmonics.
A very informative video, I would be interested in the .223 5.56 AR platform with the A2 style bird cage cart vs the bare muzzle.
Awesome test. I wonder if it may change with a different brake design...
If only someone made a bolt action rifle in .223 caliber... you'd be able to directly compare the recoil characteristics between a bolt action and a semi-auto buffered system, and not compare a .223 AR to a .22-250 bolt.
Yes it's called a lever action or an on market .223/5.56 bolt action. They do exist and can even build one out.
Lithgow LA102 in .223, Howa 1500 in .223? There’s quite a few bolt action .223 currently in use.
Ruger makes a 223 bolt action. Have one.
I want to give one idea yet - there are devices for recoil which are like extra mass on spring and is located in a stock (mostly European rifles).
I don't think it lowers a recoil but I suppose it "stretches" it.
Your rig is right what can tell what exactly it does.
Just as I was debating if running 7.62 brakes on my 6.8 spc 18in and 6.5 grendel 20in builds is worth the savings. Just hunting rifles so not sure the extra money for specific brakes are worth it. The grendel is more range/ hunting gun. Both on AR platform.
@10:30, would love to see you do a test to see how point 2 changes when using standard buffer setup vs JP and armaspec, ect silent buffer systems
If your setup can handle it, it'd be really cool to see you put some of @KentuckyBallistics guns on your recoil sled. Especially his .577 T-Rex, .416 Rigby, and 4-bore rifles. Maybe compare them to some more common large bore calibers. I don't know if the extreme recoil would damage your sled though.
Does the rubber pad effect the frequency readings? Should testing be done without a recoil pad?
Really like your content.
Let's see the difference between a can and a brake..
Gavin, I'm interested in the delay of the slam back that was observed. I believe this occurred on the more constrained break. It seems this constrain build up enough energy to hold back the bolt a bit longer,, before being released, causes a longer time gap between the recoil felt vs the slam back curve, or was it just a different powder burn rate, perhaps...an anomaly? Was this delay captured in a repeated test? This delay can relate to an upcoming accuracy behavior. What was your conclusion?
You should and maybe you have do this recoil test on different AR platforms or semi platforms like a radial delay bolt or piston long or short to see which has the lowest recoil with ….. the highest accuracy
Better to check silencers in the way of sound reduction
it would be interesting to see what happens doing this same test with a 6.5-300. just thinking about it being a magnum might show greater differences between breaks or it might be even less difference either way very interesting to think about. I personally would predict that the differences would be less not more.
Would love to see the same test with suppressors.
interesting stuff Gavin........ i always wondering about running a different size brake would do anything in a AR...... thanks for sharing your madness!!
No problem 👍
I would imagine it would be a lot like subcaliber use of a suppressor. Still would be effective, but not as effective. In a worst case scenario, you start getting accuracy issues down the road, unlike with suppressors where larger bore clearance can enhance accuracy (because contained)
Port geometry would almost definitely have more to do with recoil mitigation than brake bore diameter among common AR bore dismeters.
I would surmise that the extra bore space could create some turbulence that impacts accuracy. Really wish you guys would have taken the time to look at group sizes during this test as well.
Good video. Hey don't delay on that accuracy test this is all mute data until then.
Id like to see this vs the mil-spec flash hider too since it does provide a little compensation.
That middle hump not labeled on the AR is the bcg grabbing up the next bullet
In case if ur wondering like i was
At the range muzzle brakes are loud ! I have had shooters next to me ask if I was shooting a .308 due to the noise .
I did see a tighter group of 1/4” less @ 110 yards (100 meters)on a bench shooting with a bipod . The muzzle brake was large and heavier than the standard muzzle suppressor it replaced . I can’t tell you if the weight helped accuracy , the reduced recoil or a combination of both .
My guess would be the weight and harmonics since this was only a 223 55 grain round . The AR15 shoots sub MOA @ with .560 3 shot group . Which for an inexpensive PSA 20” 1/7 twist barrel out of the box is exceptional . I do have a 3 pound trigger from Timney .
I tried heavier rounds with different manufacturer’s but the best was with Hornady #8327 223 REM Varmint Express .
There is never a dull moment ( frustrating sometimes ) playing around with guns .😂
So my question is, with such a small difference in the recoil force between the different sizes, were you chronographing your shots? Would those small differences be affected by a slightly hotter/colder load, and are they within that amount of variation?
Nice charts. how much does the brake weigh and can you get the data for no brake but with adding the weight of the brake?
Also sound, how harsh is the sound for the brakes?
Interesting to see recoil testing of silencers on different guns.
For example, FN FAL is very silencer dependent so it has more bolt speed so brass is everywhere.
So "second event" will tell a lot about it.
oh You did it already
This is awesome I was wondering this having a 556 AK threaded 14-1 and can only find 30 caliber or 10mm sized Bore muzzle devices
Good video, good data. However, I would like to see this on a much larger scale! We are seeing a difference in recoil on a small scale (223) about as small as it gets. I personally shoot erl, 33xc in the light class and 37xc in the heavy and had tested many breaks. I can personally tell you the size of the hole and recoil is multiplied when dealing with larger rounds. We are seeing a max difference of porce lbs with the 223. How much of difference would we see with a large heavy hitter. I would guess we would see a much larger margin. Please do an analysis on a much larger rifle. 338lm or bigger!
As expected, a brake is better than none, but the difference in clearance is so minimal it doesn't really matter.
Interesting note, the delayed second impact doesn't show a correlation to bore diameter like the initial spikes do. Instead, it appears the timing of that bolt-speed based spike (the second group) is likely more related to the actual baffle/port geometry. My guess, is that the more total side port area (i.e. the number and size of the ports combined)... but maybe even the baffle angle?
What this shows isn't JUST that gas pushes the bolt back when the bullet is in the barrel, but also the jet-engine effect for it gases escaping forward instead of sideways out the brakes... and the more gas diverted sideways, the more you limit that post-exit impulse generation.
I feel like I want to try a similar test with a IWI TS12 12-gauge semi-auto. JMAC custom's 4-port brake (the 4C-12) has massive baffles and makes a huge difference... but the 2-position gas block of the TS12 allows more venting of gases through the block to soften the recoil and slow that bolt carriage speed. A rig like this would show some interesting data to see just how much that adjustable block slows the bolt.
Very cool set up!
I would like to see this test done with a suppressor like the Silencerco Hybrid 46. Do the different end caps make a difference on recoil?
Commenting for the algorithm! I hate that your channel regularly drops from my feed!