How a Solid Tool Post Mount changed my lathe
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- Опубліковано 1 чер 2024
- Parting or cutting off steel has always been a challenge on my lathe.
Issues range from heavy chatter to broken inserts and tools which end up stalling the motor and sometimes damaging the work done on a part.
Today we're making a solid tool post mount to replace the compound (top slide). The compound on small lathes is known to have rigidity issues and that's what we're looking to upgrade.
#lathe #diy #machineshop
Have a look at these other videos that served me as inspiration for mine:
Robin Renzetti's: • THE SOLID TOOL POST MOUNT
Phil Vandelay's: • 7 Mods and Improvement...
Stefan Gotteswinter's: • Emco Super 11 - Tailst...
Timestamps:
00:00 The why
01:07 Squaring cross-slide register slots
02:23 (Kind of) Squaring a cast iron block
03:24 Solid mount registration feet
05:25 Improving top/bottom parallelism
07:20 Machining angled ends
07:48 Fitting the Quick Change Tool Post
11:20 Cold blueing
11:36 Replace the compound with the Solid Tool Post Mount
13:27 Parting off tests (12L14, 4140, 304 stainless) - Наука та технологія
The 6mm deep cut on that steel was certainly proof it works!
It is so crazy for 6mm cut on that small lathe, bro you really did a great job!
Giving up the compound limits lathe capability for fine in-feeds, cutting tapers and etc. That compound is very useful.
The original problem of chatter could be due to how the gibs/dovetails are fitted_scraped as a matched part. It is likely those what must be precision/accurate parts could be extremely ill fitted causing excessive movement under cutting load. Check this.
Other possible problems could be due to how the compound/tool post is fitted to the base. There is usually a swivel base at the compound, that is another possible poor fitting area that should be looked into.
"And now something stupid" is pretty much my battle cry in the shop. Nice project and video - thanks for posting!
Thanks!
The problem with these mini lathes are often only 2 bolts holding the cross slides. I did make it into 4 bolts and it helps alot...
Problem with these mini lathes is they always try to walk it in...
@@dittiliodid you see that ludicrous display last night?
nice result. I scraped the bottom of my solid tool post and amazingly it made it even more better. put an indicator on the right side of the cross slide to see how much it moves. you may be surprised how much it lifts under load.
The cross slide likely has horrible contact on the dovetail, which means it does okay with a down and and right force from the turning, but not well from the down and back force from parting.
Flat head cap screws are another nice way to eliminate a gap for chips. Your precision counterbores are pretty cool, though, and require less head OD clearance.
Beautiful work! And I think the performance speaks for itself, probably the best mod you can do for a small lathe
Hey Phil. That's true, it transforms the lathe! Next thing I need to consolidate the rigidity is a proper lathe stand!
Fantastic implementation of Robins tool post. Your methodical approach was a good practice to hold by. Thanks!
Thanks!
Nice work. I added a solid tool post mount to my lathe and it was a big improvement in rigidity.
I LIKE IT! This may help to solve some problems that I have with my older larger lathes, too.
Thank you!
So much better! More motivation - I need to copy Robin’s for my Hardinge.
Congrats, a superb video. I have the same problem on a much bigger lathe. I will follow your lead.
Dang dude, that's a really beautiful piece of tooling.
Great work! Nicely made!
Hi, a well thought out and implemented modification, thank you. bye
Fantastic mate!
Excellent work, well done 👍👍
You should be proud. Very nice work!
Well I think you have done a great job. All machines have different parameters to work with and all machinists are different and have different ideas on what will and won't work and I think you got it just right for your lathe and your needs. I am impressed and you should be very proud of what you achieved. Also you have a very calm voice and have explained it very well. Congratulations
Oh, thanks. That's very kind. Thanks and have a happy new year!
Good ideas, well explained and executed with attention to detail and accurate milling. Clear and relaxed voice over but a bit more explanation about the thought process of bringing the large new height block to tolerance might help us new to this game❗Great video Thanks
I have worked on a wide variety of lathes. If the guides of the top slide are set correctly and it does not stick out too far and is parallel to the bed, then there should not be any problems with stability on any lathe. If I set the top slide at an angle, as you can see at the very beginning of the video, and the guides are set too loosely, then it is logical that I will get vibrations.
All the table top lathes that have compound chatter with any meaningful cutting force no matter how its set up. I have tested many, and only with rigid toolpost they work. The compounds and fitting is not flat, by any standards. I’m a professional machinist with over 10 years of experience so I know how to run a machine and tooling.
There clearance in any compound slide. There has to be. Also the attachment of the compound to the cross slide tends to be a weak pound as it has to allow rotation. For both these reasons a solid toolpost will be more rigid. Finally, if Robin Renzetti and Stefan Goetteswinter say it’s better, having done years of work both with and without this mod, then for me there’s no doubt.
@@sblack48 I can only repeat that I have earned my living for decades by producing parts on various machines. I and the employees in my department have never had any problems with stability. But I understand that if you only do it as a hobby, the machines won't be as expensive and therefore less stable.
@@peterpan7903 certainly the smaller machines are less rigid and will benefit more from this. Also it depends on what you are doing and how hard you push the machine. For straight forward turning it probably doesn’t matter. But when you try plunging with a wide form tool with full contact then the increased rigidity will be appreciated. Also consider that Robin did this mod on a hardinge hvl-h which is not exactly a flimsy hobby machine.
nice, a pleasure to watch, well done
Beautiful design
I loved all the vids you mentioned, i cant wait to do this to my mini lathe👍👌🇦🇺
Well worth it 🙂
Great machining sir
Nice work!
looks great. you have enough material to make a second STP, to have other tooling (i.e. knurling tool) right there without having to change tools
Great! ....6mm! ...what a improvement! 👍 like your work...looking forward to do so at my lathe
Thanks, yeah that was pushing it a bit too far, bit the lathe didn't complain!
Nice project.
very nice work
Nice work
Man this is awesome what you did but i dont have a milling to do all that and i really need to taper for the work im doing.
Nice video.... keep it up!
Una lavorazione professionale, ottimo
Anyone else get the sense that making a bushing/sleeve, or whole new bolt+shaft, for the tool-post hold-down shaft/bolt, to take up the slop between the post and shaft, would've probably taken care of these concerns just as well as all this other work?.. I mean maybe also the surface finishes between the compound and tool-post, but there was an awful lot of play in that post and shaft when he showed it.
It mighy have helped but in my case I think this was a better improvement. It's a matter of mass. The mass in the compound just isn't there and having a small compound locked with a single M3 screw is not the same. There are improvements to be done that would help, like scraping it to get tighter tolerances, making a new plate to hold it, drill and tap more locking screws... but in the end, I think the mass is just not there as well as there are too many mating parts. But hey, if you try that on your lathe, do let us know! 😉
I altered my compound slide to hold down in a similar fashion to a Boxford, this has worked very well and the compound is still available for normal use.
Looks great! I did a similar solid tool post. I too copied Phil Vandelay’s design. But I had to modify my tool post because I needed access to the follow rest and the overhang for getting closer to the faceplate put my cutting edge past the follow rest supports. I hated to do it but I was on a time crunch and didn’t have the materials to build another too post. If you want to spoil yourself make some land T-nuts with threaded holes at opposite ends for mounting hardware. It’s fewer parts to finic into place.
That's a good point that I didn't show in the video. The follow rest is indeed a compromise, I have to grind an hss tool to bring the cutting edge inline with the rest supports or slightly behind them. All my carbide tools cut past the supports as you described (but not by much). The steady rest on the other end is very good, I'm able to take a tool just about to crash. Cheers!
Sim sem dúvidas nenhuma se tem um carro longitudinal bem ajustado no barramento esse porta ferramentas de suporte do castelo também bem fixado e zerado na transversal aí sim hein tem como fazer passes em milímetros e sangramento com mais precisão parabéns Belo gabarito de usinagem 🇧🇷🙏
I notice that virtually no one uses a self protecting cutoff tool holder.
It has a slot to allow the tool tip to move away from the cut if it begins to dig in too deeply.
Maybe that just isn't a problem with modern cutoff tools?
Nice work. Gilles
BRAVO!! 👏🏼
For a next project, why not a carriage drill holder? Big chunk of material, use a drill and a boring head held in the spindle to put a holes in so they're aligned with the motion of the carriage. Personally I'd put in a plain hole for this ER8 collet chuck (for smaller drills) and an MT2 bore for taper-shank drills or a chuck.
Thanks for the suggestion. It might come in handy one day, but before that I have other stuff to finish! Cheers!
very nice!
what rpm do you use when you do parting please with each material please with the carbide insert tool
Subbed. I like your work
I had major problem with parting operations with my 10x24 bench mill. I got a piece o 2" hot rolled steel large enough to bolt the lathe to. This made it rigid enough to not walk on the floor, as my problem was the whole lathe going into harmonic oscillations during parting and heavy feed or depth cuts. But a rigid tool post would make it better. I don't have a T-slot cross slide on either of my lathes, so I'm stuck mimicking the compound mount, not optimal or enough fasteners.
Thanks for sharing, I also have the lathe bolted to a 15mm hot rolled plate, but still have (or had, I don't know yet if that changed with the solid mount) some vibration from time to time, mostly turning larger stock away from the chuck. I think the next big improvement to be done is the lathe stand. I have mentioned that in other videos, my current stand is far from ideal. I already have the materials, but will need more time to design it 😉
I added a piece of aluminium tooling plate to the top of my cross slide after I milled some T slots in it. It is held down by a number of cap screws and then there is a small riser block between it and the quick change tool post. I like the idea of the corner being held tight to stop the tooling from rotating under cutting forces. I may change the riser block so I can do this.
nice job
I put small c clamp on compound when partin off. 10"grizzly.
Hi! Love the videos, where do you purchase your parts? Surface plates, toolpost, pins, cold blue, etc!
Thanks! My surface plate came from Chronos UK, it's a Dasqua plate. I have some Dasqua tools and most of them are very good. The toolpost was from arceurotrade, also in the UK, but I've bought a bunch of cheap AXA toolholders from Amazon. They are not as good as those from Arc. I use the cheap ones for the least used tools. Cold blue is from Birchwood Casey, super blue. That's a bit expensive and results are kind of hit and miss. In fact I was looking the other day if there was a better alternative to dip the parts instead of brushing them, but didn't find any conclusion. I also got some machines from HBM, seems to be my source in the last years (no sponsorship or anything). All my measurement tools are probably second hand tools from ebay that I clean up and restore / calibrate. I don't think I have bought anything new from one of major brands (Mitutoyo, Starrett). I like very much the Fowler/NSK micrometers I show in the videos, they are very accurate, easy to maintain and well balanced to hold. Hope this helps!
Nice design
Thanks!
Wow, that is a big improvement. Now I'm not sure if I want to go with just an improved clamp for the compound or all the way to a solid replacement for the compound?!? Decisions, decisions...
Thanks. Maybe you can start with the compound clamp upgrade and then if you feel it's not enough you can make a solid mount. Win/win? ☺️
A few things... One, you could check the center bore for the compound, and use that as a locating feature with a solid carbide pin(broken 12mm endmill seems to be what would do it in your case, i may be wrong in size, but you get my point). That would serve as the pivot point, and a centralizing feature... The toolpost could have a ``box way configuration`` and rely on as many flat surfaces as you would like, it could rely both on the faces and the t-slots, it could rely on the t-slots or t-slots and the rear face of the cross slide for angular reference...
Now this doesnt apply to you, given the skinny ass mill which would not really appreciate the technique, but if you slap on a machined slab to the back of your mill, scraped-matched perfectly, you will be at a point where your mill wont bitch about the technique that follows... A flycutter is great, but what the fuck is an indexable shell mill other than a flycutter with too many teeth? Just pick the x inserts out of the facemill, leaving one in there... A facemill is often very heavy, and quite well balanced(unlike most flycutters, which i neednt explain what the benefits thereof are)... You could also if you are using a large(4in onwards dia) facemill, leave two inserts, 180 degrees apart, that would mass balance the facemill, and would give you two cutting edges to work with, which can be used either on a small part to allow you more speed of movement, having only one cutter do the work at given time, or you could use it on larger parts, to impart force via both inserts at the same time, as to theoretically keep the facemill under equal loads on both ends, thus forcing it to cut flat, if the head is perfectly trammed...
Also, that second, thicker carbide drill seemed to be off... It may just be parallax sight, but it seemed to me to be offset by half a millimeter towards you, as if you accidentally leaned on the y handwheel and shifted the whole assembly a bit away from the column... I may be shooting out of my ass here, but that is what it looks like to me, hell, i think i even detected a slight bending in the thicker drill as it went in... I would try and check the bore with a carbide endmill shaft, as that wont bend, and if the hole is crooked, it will instantly tell you that shit had taken a path of its own...
Its a lovely design, and i like it, im just writing down what i think i see, as i watch...
When i get my shit together, and when i get my machines in order, i will film a video on this topic, as i too will appreciate a solid toolpost block on my baby lathe... The big girl lathe has a compound that is as heavy as your mill, so that needs no real changes... The lathe would benefit from it, but she is a skookum choocher of the old german style, the size of her parts - when precisely fitted - allow for ridiculous cuts... Like 13mm doc at 27m/min cutting speed, so slow infeed, but... 13 fucking mm??? Hello? What were the germans thinking back then... The rated horsepower of the cut in the manual is 9 horsepower, out of 11 that the motor has... And that is with the compound slide... So if she can run 13mm doc with a compound, i seriously doubt that my loving and gentle cuts will even be noticed by her majesty... Even in toolsteel, she wont even know she is running... Now that`s a regal lathe, equal to monarch lathes... But the baby lathe, well, lets say that a compound is either locked 99% of the time with gibs, or its used for those few cuts with appropriate tightness of the gibs, but yeah, i will likely make a very similar piece to yours, as the design is more than pleasing and functional...
Also, i would lubricate those fasteners, either way oil or whatever grease you have at hand... Just for good measure... The tight spacing allows you flood the area with oil and have the bolts be absolutely rustproof for a good while... Grease would be even better, as it would not be easily blown out by air blasts or almost anything else...
I have just approved your comment, (youtube retained it for revision).
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Regarding the 6mm carbide drill, I just re-watched that part and I was surprised, it really looks off center! So I went downstairs and measured a 6mm carbide rod (blank) which slides nicely into the hole and measured the distance from that to a parallel resting against the machined corner of the tool post. There's 0.03mm difference. The video does seem to show more than that, I don't know why. I have pre-drilled with a 3mm first, not shown in the video. Could that first hole be off? I didn't move the table and was using R8 collets though... so that is strange. Anyway, the result seems fine and everything else was made around that, so wouldn't be a problem if it was off... but well spotted 😅 Thanks!
@@nbrworks
Yeah, it seems to me as if the drills were not concentric to each other, the 3mm went in, made a hole, and the 6 mil didnt seem to kiss off from that hole perfectly... I thought i was just having parallax sight and focused on the carbide 6 mil drill, and i could see that i cant just be mad, the thing looked to be engaging on one side more, and as it went in, it seemed to ``bend`` a bit... Being carbide, it nearly is like an endmill in its rigidity and ability to correct a hole as it sees fit, but being a drill, and a 2 fluter, it just doesnt have that rigidity, even in carbide...
I love the 3 flute carbide drills for that reason... Try them, they are near boring bar precise, have reamer grade surface finish, drill hard steel, self locate and self start(some dont, some are specifically ground to enlarge an existing hole and have a blunt nose-no point)... I first got one with my big lathe, and that drill had me in love from the instant i spun it in my hand and saw that im not barking mad - that thing actually has 3 flutes, and its a drill?! So yeah, a recommendation for those... Harder to grind, more complex, but immensely more rigid, and better in every way, except for their max speed of material removal, which logically suffers due to less space in the flutes...
Also, lol on youtube comment revision... You can turn that off when you post videos if you want... Its more of a feature for political channels and such stuff where virulent hate and sewage of racism and other forms of shit are likely to appear en-masse...
I know that my dictionary easily gets my comments flagged by such screening, even when it has 0 to do with any abject hate or sewage spewage of other sorts... Eh, what can you do... I have love for machines and foul mouth for everything else :P
All the best and kindest regards!
Steuss
Thanks for your advice Steuss, it's appreciated. Cheers!
This is next level stuff trying to insure a solid mounting. Oooh.. 13:44 I see it has the shishing sound of solidity in the cut. Tremendous. Mine just squeals and my tailstock does some weird "notching movements" when I'm turning it in to drill. I have no idea on the second issue. 10" WW2 model
15:45 Wow that's taking chunkage.
Thanks. Have you checked if your spindle bearings are good (and tight)?
@@nbrworks Yes, what it does is grabs like it is cogged in the tailstock. It's the amount I move the handle. I have not taken apart the tailstock. I'd say it does some sort of grab thing every 2-5 degrees of turning the tailstock handle. So now since you made me think about it, it's probably internal to the tailsock.
I like it. I may have to do the work to my lathe. My issue is that when I’m going to take the lathe down, I also wanna do a 2.6hp dc motor I have prepped with an actual spindle rpm, and do a better cross slide lead screw with thrust washers and better two part nut for eliminating backlash, and … 😂 Well, you get the idea.
I know what you mean. One step at a time!
Videos like this, of jobs like this, merit more subscribers and I'm sure they'll be here soon enough.
Thanks Jim!
Nicely made. But you've made it so you can't change the angle the tool is presented to the work, which seems very restrictive - what were your reasons for this?
Yes, it needs to stay put against rotation. With this change I might be taking heavier cuts sometimes and don't want to rely on the stud alone.
dat 6mm doc. Holy shit
Looks like you added one or two R's of machining.
About the HSS parting tool walking out of the holder - was that a result of the flex in the original setup, so no longer a problem? Did you alter that parting tool holder? Nice job on the solid block, of course!
That's a very good question and something I didn't address in the video. From what I can tell, the tool holder has the adjustable jaw slightly angled and using a thin blade just makes it prone to slip. Also there's nothing holding the blade at the back and that doesn't help... but I see other people using this type of holder with no issues (apparently) so I'm assuming mine is "deffective". In the last tests the problem didn't happen because I was careful, had the blade sharp and didn't need to push it too hard... it worked but I don't think that's resolved by just having the solid mount alone. (I always set my part off tools square to avoid this type of problem.) Anyway, I might address the issues with the holder in the future or even make a new one, slightly different for a P-type blade I just got in the mail. 🤫😉
What is the advantage of a 6 jaw chuck over 3 or 4?
There's not really an advantage of the 6 jaw over 3 or 4 (self centering) other than a better distributed grip... but that also depends on the quality of the chuck. A good 3 jaw is preferable over a bad 6 jaw. I happen to use a 6 jaw because it gives me better concentricity than my 3 jaw (and I got it cheap).
Have in mind that most 4 jaw chucks you see on youtube videos are not self-centering, but have independent jaws. Those are normally used to get lower runout on parts (better than self-centering chucks) or to offset work as needed, or even turn square stock on the lathe. Hope this helps 🙂
They are useful if you do a lot of thin walled parts, less distortion from the pressure of the jaws.
Wow! My lathe is also from HBM, a tad bigger at 290x750, but no way it would cope with such a DOC in steel.
Hi Steve! That's interesting (I have no other lathe to compare). Mine is a 250x550. If it helps understanding why it might be able to make such cut, I have taken it apart and rebuilt it. I haven't change much on the lathe, more like a clean up, small improvements and make sure clearances were tight. I added a 15mm steel bar underneath it - that made it feel more stiff. The solid tool post mount finishes it off. (I have videos of the rebuild if you're interested). Having said that, the stand is really bad and the whole thing shakes a lot, you can see that in some of the clips. Making a good stand is on the to do list. That should even make things more solid! Cheers
I see a power feed for your mill table in your future.
Ah! You're so right about that! And not only the x-axis, I desperately need one for the z-axis 😄 and a DRO would help as well. Future projects!
That Mill is not tramed, your fly cutter is using one side only, when tramed the marks aré crisscross pattern...
Hi, thanks for your comment. If the head was tilted there wouldn't be a back cut, the cutter would just be going over the surface already cut. You can see the back cut is happening, it's taking "no material" but leaves the finish. Also on the surface plate there's no evidence of a concave cut which should happen with an out of tram head. Thanks
he, is that a hbm bf30 mill ?
cheers
ben
Hi Ben. No, it's from Amadeal, 25 model, I think it's smaller than the 30. Mine has a 700x180 table.
@@nbrworks yes, you are right, your mill is rthe same as the hbm bf25, the all come from the same factory, only the different brands has different quality, but in basic they all all the same.
👍
~ SUPER ADVANCEMENT !!!
~
Nice work and totally worth the effort. But why stop there? Think about all that nasty overhang from your QTP! Put that thing on the shelf and dig out your old 4 way (Turret) Tool Post. They're versatile, more rigid and provide less than half the tool OVERHANG! I'll admit I'm old school and still, occasionally use my old Lantern (Armstrong) tool post. That old girl can get into places that neither of these two can.
Wakodahatchee Chris
Hi Chris. I understand, but for the kind of stuff I do, changing tools with the quick change is nice too. I've kept the 4 way toolpost (I don't throw away stuff like that), so maybe one day I'll give it a go 🙂
Next a solid tool holder.
Why don't you just lock the gibs on the compound?
that is a significantly feeble compound, would you bother to do this had you a more substantial machine?
I think it would depend. If I had no reason to complain with the compound, I guess I wouldn't do it. In my specific case it does make a difference and it is worth it. In my upcoming video I had to swap between the compound and the solid tool mount a couple of times and it's not a problem at all. 2 minutes job, not more than that. The registration features help a LOT to keep it easy and quick. Thanks!
Dude just take more feedrate and flush the Part with coolant . Then the old compound will also work for parting.
Ahhh flood coolant. There's so many things I have to do before that 😂
@@nbrworks flood coolant is really a game changer in turning. Also with some real coolant mix like biowas or alumet
Thanks, hope to get there one day!
I don't like telling someone how to do the things they post on the tube but would it have been easier and more tidy just make a new hold down bolt that fits the tool block. You wouldn't have to introduce a cut for a l- shaped corner holder and could rotate the tool post to whatever angle may be best for your needs
So to improve your new Lathe you need to own a milling machine.
Hey, you paid for the whole insert, use the whole insert
😅
Stupid 🤔..... impressive 👏 👏 👌
Cheers
What a waste of time. The only way to get a good parting off is *very* slow speed.
Stopped watching when someone that is clearly European started using English units, probability to please American viewers.
Even the good Americans use both systems in their videos, why you should be different. Beside, that Chinese lathe is fully metric.
PS the reason why you broke cutoff tools and inserts is that these were the Chinese ones bought at the lowest possible price. Ask me how do I know.
What an absurd amount of nonsensical work.
Could you not see the difference in how smoothly the tools cut after the modification? Besides, it was to make the maker happy; not you. IMO it's a worthwhile mod for small lathes that lack rigidity. There aren't enough Monarch 10EEs available for everyone to have one.
@@David-hm9ic that makes no sense. A simple ball detent would have accomplished the same thing.