Did Lilith Clawthorne get off too easily? (The Owl House Video Essay)
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- Опубліковано 5 сер 2021
- Hi, guys! it's been a while! I've been meaning to discuss The Owl House for so long, so let's ponder the question: Did Lilith get off too easily?
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Luz isn’t the kind to hold a grudge. She looks for the light in others even when they want to keep her in the dark. It’s in her name.
Luz actually means light in Spanish 😁
(Ik that you know that)
@@p1nkPallas thanks for the clarification mate!
Very true Luz does always look for the good in people case in point is with Amity.
~Gh0st~ Ship name? Lumity.
I get it but that doesnt mean she should trust her
Lets not forget Lilith threw Luz off a brigde and seemed to be fully prepared to kill her to push Eda over the edge . That was completely glossed over in the show🙄
Amity was willing to have Luz skinned alive. A few blushes and a peck on the cheek later and Amity is reformed. King actually joked about it.
@@jamesmacleod9382 I don’t think Amity actually intended for Luz to be dissected, she was counting on Luz running away at the threat of dissection which would prove she wasn’t really an abomination. Her actions when she’s first introduced are bad but I don’t think she would have been okay with murder.
I mean all of the boiling isles seem more ok with death or what we would consider it. I guess it’s because they’re harder to die.
I know Lilith is always whining about how bad she feels about what she did to Eda, but she acts as though she never did anything else bad.
I- i mean... hooty drugged eda and kidnapped amity and king IN THE SAME EPISODE
...and for the most part we still love him
While Lilith's Redemption wasn't as bad as the Diamond's or Catra's, it still could use a lot of Work.
I'm just really sad that they sent her off to live with her Mom. I liked Lilith as a Character and she had an enjoyable Dynamic with Hooty.
And now that Amity comes to the Owl House more regularly, it would have been a great Opportunity to have her hang out with her former Coven Instructor.
Do they actually like each other? I was never sure.
It reminded me so much of Steven Universe and that Barn (and later Little Homeworld). I have a feeling that when Lilith returns in a few episodes, she's gonna have a major character revamp. It won't be until Season 2B I feel, since the next episode and the one after will be about Luz getting home.
Yeah, catras redemption was absolutely not a terrible one and a fair bit better than Lilith.
What worked about Catra's redemption arc is that she had shown that she could do the right/good thing, she was also a central character and we could understand that she had had her safety and security tied to Adora, who had seen her be abused, and her seeing that Adora only realised the horde was bad after spending time with strangers and not the seventeen or so years of watching her friend be abused [and being abused herself to be fair]. We also saw that to her leaving wasn't an option, she always had the choice to leave but that meant going where there was no guarantee she would be accepted and possibly having her safety tied to someone who abandoned her to take the fall for her own desertion before, the very thing she had been building walls up to prevent . she also got a dressing down from Double Trouble where she had it explained to her that being the villain isn't her and when she's with Horde prime he can sense that her heart isn't in it. She then sacrifices herself [which isn't even the first time she let the rebellion go] and when that doesn't work has to actually grow and grow with Adora as they both start to heal from the Horde's abuse, even the she still had to deal with people who didn't initially trust or like her and who she had to prove herself to by helping the rebellion. Do not dare compare an arc that's foreshadowed and that's groundwork is laid since episode one to the weakest plot in an overall great show.
I think Lilith's redemtion is worse than Catra's since it happened way faster. But the Diamonds are... something
I think lith wasn’t certain on how the curse would effect her. I think actually transforming into an beast had to be a major blow to her psyche.
Lith is good at hiding her emotions and so is Eda.
After the transformation and lith is return to normal. She was literally CRYING. And we saw that she had to be an emotionalless zombie in season 1.
I have to say that the transformation finally broken lith. And lith needs time to understand the curse and accept it.
I think the 3 season limit means some things are a little rushed. Although at the moment I consider Lilith forgiven, but not yet redeemed.
Nah with the sweet ass time it took season 1 to have its bullshit episodical plots only to have an extremely rushed horribly paced 2 part finale
Limitations should be an opportunity to be creative with what you have and prepare a cohesive story that can be satisfying within the duration. If people waste time in one season and rush through other parts later that's the fault of the creators, not Disney for (imo smartly) not wasting money on people who don't know what to do with their story.
Very nicely said if u only go off of the what season 2 gave us in terms of Lilith's redemption then it's obviously still a work in progress I'm just glad they came back to it in the B half.
i think as hootie said eda gets it from the night market it's implied its alcoholic ice cream
Do not let king eat it!
@@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaBunnydoll i mean he seemed fine after
Here's the thing. Lilith has spent her entire life in service of the emperors coven, to fix the mistake of cursing her sister. It's very obvious from the first episode we see her that she feels bad about Eda's curse. She is trying to help because Belos is the most powerful witch on the isle and he promised to cure Eda. The second that promise is broken Lillith changes sides. It's not a redemption ark, Lillith's ark isn't about redeeming herself it's about finding out that she has been lied too. Lillith was a child when she cast a spell she didn't fully understand, and has spent her life trying to fix it through belos and the coven system.
“Having a sad back story isn’t enough to redeem you”
YES. YES. PERIODT. TAKE THAT DEMON SLAYER. (I love demon slayer)
I was a but disappointed, I wish they dragged it out more. They we’re just like, “oh, you switch sides. Friend”. I know both Luz and Eda are forgiving, especially of family, so it makes some sense. But for real? She didn’t even have a redemption arc. She had a “oh, I’m cute now and I’m besties with hooty. fOrgIve mE.” Y’know? I love Lilith, and I was looking forward to the videos hyping up her redemption arc, just like amity. But nothing really happened. Then they just threw out the character as a whole? We haven’t seen her in person since he went with her mother. We only saw her letter to hooty. I wish they would do random funny quirky scenes throughout a few episodes of Lilith current home life. It think this was one of the only times the owl house disappointed me. It’s sad.
I’m personally on the opinion that cause the shortened season 3 and Disney screwing Dana Terrace over things had to develop a lot faster and Lilith’s redemption went by fast, or more personality revamp.
Yeah thats what happens with most cartoons. Thats somewhat what happened with she ra and steven universe too. Despite my personal feelings on catra specifically i can see why people dislike her redemption. A lot of cartoons get into these deep topics and then end up rushing an ending which is where a lot of the big bad guys get redeemed. I do like that horde prime wasnt redeemed he was just... turned to dust and disappeared because there was no place for him. I like that and think more cartoons should do things like that.
@@saltydinonuggies1841 I’m scared that It could happen with Amphibia as well since it’s on it’s final season now (Season 3) and I personally feel they have a lot of story to wrap up in 20 episodes with some or most being 2 11 minute episodes.
Edit: Now Season 3A aka first half of the final season is done yet I’m still worried about the main story being rushed.
The main reason that Lilith and other character arcs seem so little was because the show got shortened to 3 seasons so a lot of stuff had to be shortened and arcs cut short
This happened with amity and willow too,instead of seeing them repair their broken friendship they just became friends again:/i love amity but she still bullied willow and made her have lots of insecurities about herself but we never saw her actually trying besides defending willow against boscha
I mean, we got the episode I forgot what it’s called where amity accidentally burns all of willows memories. After that they weren’t close but gradually grew to act more normal around each other. It was better then how they did Lilith and Eda dirty with this “redemption arc”
@@SillySpiderWeb yeah i liked that episode but the problem is that they're suddenly friends again after that,but yeah it was so much better than lillith's arc
Um we did boscha was picking on her in the dodge ball episode (I don't remember the name) and Amity says "I used to be like you Obsessed with power and status, but I grew up. When will you?"
@@hastiborhani3492 no, in the episode they said they weren’t friends yet. Being decent around someone doesn’t make you guys friends.
@@hastiborhani3492 at the end of that episode, Willow said that they are not friends with Amity but they could try. So it was not that sudden.
lulu (yes thats what im calling her from now on) was a child with a dream so she did something she could reverse to help her get her dream. Unfortunately she couldnt reverse it. So shes trying to fight her guilt, mother issues and duty to help her sister. So instead of just forcing her to join the coven she instead did bets and bribes and schemes instead. Then she realized she fucked up split the curse with eda. Now shes trying to work thru her issues properly. Eda forgave her but she still has to work at it to repair a relationship. Everyone seems to think forgiving someone automatically means not bringing up all the past shit. And alot of children shows reinforce this. But owl house isnt doing that. Lulu is working thru it but this time with an actual support system like with Catra. Just cause we've only seen the start of it doesnt mean there isnt alot more work that needs to be done but might not be shown. This time however a support system will actually change her for the better. Again like Catra. Hell shes indirectly responsbility for lumity being official since she encouraged hootsifer so much to help others and boost his self esteem with their friendship.
Imo the problem of while forgiveness and redemption aren't the same, imo you can be redeemed without being forgiven and you can be redeemed qnd forgiven but having a character be forgiven without being redeemed is stupid. Zuko was redeemed but not forgiven immediately. Catra was redeemed but not forgiven(she did have people immediately forgive her after her redemption, but there were people like frost who didn't trust her or forgive her immediately. Plus, she was already redeemed so being forgiven makes sense). Both had to wait for the forgiven and it makes it seem more real. When a character is forgiveness before their redemption, it feels like "they don't deserve that yet." I love lilith as a character, but I don't like her redemption arc
I loved this video so much all I can say is Paradot, and Hooty, and references! and god this video had all of my opinions in it and all of my favorite things great video great channel!
I don't think her redemption was terribly executed, I just wish she got more time to continue her redemption and grow as a person. But given the show is only gonna be 3 seasons and there's so much to it, it makes sense she left so early, which I do kinda hate to say.
She DID lose her magic, has to live with the curse for potentially the rest of her life, is deemed a traitor, and lost her status in the Emperor's Coven. Which is a lot to lose.
Hoping we get more of her in season 3 and later season 2. Especially seeing her stand up against Belos or potentially sacrifice herself for Luz and/or Eda. And I'm not saying this in a "I want Lilith to die sort of way" but rather "I want Lilith to show she's truly changed, even if it puts her life in danger" sort of way.
Also I wish it wasn't completely pushed aside that Lilith threw Luz off the cliff in Agony of a Witch.
she's not redeemed, she has live a life without her powers for her actions like what happened to the fire lord in Avatar (Diamonds are never redeemed but their statues of leaders are stripped and reverse the damage to others)
@@andreafraustoz True. I'm only saying she's redeemed because the show is sorta treating it that way
I'd also like to add, in light of knock knock knocking on hootys door, Eda went through so much trauma all caused by the curse and(if you ask me) a bit of trust issues. I know Eda and Lilith are sisters but I feel like that would take a bit of time for Eda to forgive Lilith. Idk dawg
Agreed. Yet people think that we should love Lilith and not hate her.
Honestly, Lilith leaving isn't a story thing so much as a production thing I bet. They probably can't afford to keep having her show up.
Tbh that makes more sense
I know I'm a bit 'tardy to the party' in the comments, but I agree with a lot of the similar sentiments from you and the other commenters. While I did like the execution of Lilith owning up to her past deeds and taking on half of Eda's curse to help her sister. However, I think it would have been more interesting if they actually had MORE tension result between Eda and Lilith. It just seemed like after Lilith took on half the curse and betrayed the Emperor's Coven, it was like Eda just flipped on a dime and just accepted her sister back with open arms. I think it would have been better if they dragged out the tension between the two and have them gain trust slowly. As someone who had an experience of feeling disrespected/betrayed by a close sibling, it can mean needing to let that trust and relationship heal over time. It took us almost a full year of distance for things to even be kind of sort of 'okay'. Sibling relationships I feel like are often not given enough proper focus in shows and I just wish Eda and Lilith's relationship would have been done the same. I LOVE "The Owl House" since they do such a good job with relationships and I feel like this can get better and better for the writing team as time goes on. I REALLY hope Disney rethinks their decision and offers this show the opportunity to get more seasons. It's such a great show and shows kids the importance of 'being an individual' isn't wrong and normalizes all kinds of relationships. They have a gold mine of a ground breaking show on their hands and hope they ignore the intolerant feedback of people who can't accept differences.
And for you as a creator, dear... keep up the amazing work! I just stumbled across your channel in my recommendations the other day and your research and delivery in your videos is so well done and I look forward to your future content!
Take care and consider me a new subscriber!
This could have been the focal point for the episode where they introduce Gwendolyn. The tension between Lily and Eda boiling over as well as them addressing their respective issues with their mom, Eda on the fact that she was treated like a mistake that needed to be fixed, and Lily being forgotten about by her parents
If Owl House wasn’t cancelled so early, I think Lilith’s season 2 arc should have focused on her genuinely trying to make it up to Eda
LOL as soon as she said let the pain be shared as soon as she finish saying that an ad popped up
Honestly this depends on your personal view on forgiveness. We can debate all day long on wether or not someone deserves redemption or a second chance but it's up to the people who were wronged to make thst call. Luz was lucky enough to be raised by Camila who is an amazing loving parent that shows compassion to others so Luz by nature isn't going to hold a grudge. Eda has clearly wanted to reconnect with her sister for years but was never able to bc Lilith was in the emperor's coven but now she's a wanted crminal and weakened bc she shares the curse. Eda certainly has every right to be angry but at the end of day what change if she held a grudge? Nothing. It's already done. All holding a grudge does is cause unnecessary stress on you and she doesn't want that. I feel like we have this compulsion to see people punished in some way as the only way to atone for wrong doings but really that doesn't help all time. Lilith does take steps to try and change and even help her sister. People really underestimate how much sharing the curse not only harmed Lilith but helped Eda. The potions weren't helping Eda at all at one point but now thnx to Lilith they do and she has to be just as careful or else Lilith will turn into a beast plus she can't use magic snymore which caused her to hyper focus and learn the glyph magic system and even create and experiment new types of glyphs which Luz has put to good use. This was a really long round about way of trying to justify why i think Lilith's redemption wasn't rushed. Like i said it comes down to personal views and everyone's view on forgiveness is differrnt based on thier life experiences.
This is something that always bothers me with these kind of discussions. A lot of people want to judge whether someone has done enough to redeem themselves but where that line is drawn is entirely dependent on where the people they hurt choose to set it. Forgiveness is something that is given, not something you do a set amount of work for and then you "earn it." I'm always surprised at the amount of vitriol fans have for cartoon characters that they have decided didn't do enough to deserve redemption, especially when they are portrayed as characters who are trying to do better. Just because there wasn't an on-screen depiction of them personally apologizing to every character individually doesn't invalidate them trying to improve, and just because some characters have more positive relationships now doesn't mean everything is totally fixed either. Honestly a lot of the time it feels like people just want to see them suffer.
@@SkywardShoe you put this so perfectly!!! I agree with you 100%
The Owl House is getting cut short, so I imagine they have to cut Lilith's arc to make room for the rest of the main cast.
well they did add lilith alot more with a luz abd lilith episode on philip and her being there to comfort eda when the day of unity was a week away and look at this episode
Ok so I see this is touched on a lot In the comments but let me shed some light on the subject a little more... I’m like luz in regards to my acceptance levels... I have gone through a traumatic experience someone put me through but instead of getting frustrated or fightsy with them I saved face smiled and interacted like nothing ever happened... i had a moment of weakness after hearing about another plight from one of my friends and opened up about mine... this caused this persons best friend to despise them... and you know how I felt in the end... terrible, down right awful... it wasn’t tried to kill me bad but it was traumatically bad... I forgave them for all they put me through... it was only when I saw the damage they had done to others that I felt resentment and guilt... for not speaking up or hating them sooner... the point I’m making is people like luz look past their own problems with a person and respond to the reactions of others! If you notice the whole time luz was in that situation her main saying was “YOU HURT EDA” not “YOU TRIED TO KILL ME!” Or “YOU HELD ME OVER A PIT OF SPIKES!” luz has always been more focused on others to the point she doesn’t care if she almost died...
SPOILERS for season two
that is no more evident then when she talks to the Golden guard... remember he also threatened to kill her, and lock eda away! But in the moment of interacting with him she is more then willing to talk glyphs, she doesn’t like him but a part of her wants to be his friend and make his a good sad boy and not a bad sad boy... the only difference is Lilith cursed eda... death in the boiling isles seems to be par for the course so as much as liliths stunt was framed to be big and terrible the only truly terrible thing she did in the eyes of luz was hurt eda...
sorry if that’s hard to understand but based on the interactions I saw of Lilith coupled with her taking on part of the curse that she will have to deal with forever! And always be looked down upon by her beloved coven system.... I would say she has been punished enough to warrant Lilith still being a bit of a sassy lady and cringeworthy or frustrating but not someone who needs her new life to constantly remind her of her failures because she truly is trying to change! It’s not working well but she’s trying
Sorry if that doesn’t make any sense... I tried
I think in the context of the show, Lilith was forgiven because of the kindness and forgiveness Luz is almost ALWAYS willing to extend so long as her loved ones end up safe.
Luz was only mad because Eda was in danger but it would be more true to her character to forgive right away once Eda was safely home. Eda is very highly influenced by Luz and that's kinda the Owl Lady's arc so I think they were on the right track with Eda just trying to move on and forgive... though I would have loved one episode were she makes a choice to be like Luz and forgive but 🤷♂️ Id blame budget, runtime, and studio constraints for that.
Ima be honest but I hate how they sent Lilith to live with her mom it’s like they just got tired or writing her as a character
Another solid video. Much as I like Lilith, yeah I agree her redemption is a RUSHED affair. She's not the worst, but I feel Disney's making their TV animation divisions rush about really hurt the pace of the show. They have to rush to wrap up SO MUCH, it's... sad really. While this hasn't gotten Steven Universe levels of BS, it really does feel like the Owl House is on a wire, trying to balance the story and yet, do it fast before the starting end of the wire frays because a Disney exec cutting through the wire.
There's a lot of pacing and as you put it, an episode where Lilith needed to regain everyone's trust, in a slow gradual, and organic fashion. Even with her help to spring Eda, there's no reason for the crew to trust her, if not hold some DEEP resentment towards her. Plus you don't undo 30+ years of behavior so easily, even with the shell-shock factor to be taken into effect.
6:01 Yeah, Lilith essentially cheated for nothing
I wish they did this with Chloe in miraculous they had a chance to do it. It’s kind of teaching kids “don’t forgive people”
Yeah but Chloe isn't as bad as Lilith yes she has done bad things but bullying compared to imprisoning and turning people into stone are 2 different levels of bad
As of the time of the video I think u definitely made a lot of good points as to Lilith seemingly being let off easily at least by Luz but I think it might've stemmed from the crew only having so much time to work with and it's unfortunately implied I think that a lot may have been worked out in terms of Luz forgiving Lilith off screen in that week and a half between the end of season 1 and season 2's start.
Lilith needs to work hard for that redemption she has she earned it yet for how many Evil acts that she caused
And remember for a lot of years she had to hide away from her peers wait for repairs and also hot between the human world and the demon Realm sometimes
Ay! That’s my art of Lilith’s Cursed form in the thumbnail, that’s cool!
Honestly I would have liked to see an episode focused on Lilith; her trying to prove herself but more than anything see her admit how badly she hurt Eda
And Luz, and Amity, and all the other people she hurt.
@@quinnfletcher3906 I would like to see the dynamic of Eda more; specifically the audience seeing Lilith's cold facade break down
I blame the Disney plus workers for rushing the owl house staff and canceling the show
Also i really wish some network more mature produced the owl house. Simply cuz it was apparently alot darker and more towards the horror.
She is one of the favorites on my ranking but feel she got most of her potential wasted... seemed the staff didn´t know what to do with her resulting on just a bunch of ideas that never got to work on Lilith. The way the revelation of the curse was handed and the pity redemption given to her. On the bright side she is a character with clean lay to work lore out.
I mean she Lost all her life maybe not redeption but she got her punishment
I agree with this whole video except for one thing: Being what is basically the Emperor’s second in command, Lilith has probably seen how the Emperor can take control over any witch with a Coven mark. She was most likely way too scared to stand up to the Emperor
what happened in season 1 episode 18 she deserved to be petrified or destroyed.
She cursed her own sister just to get the spot On the emperor's covet She should have been turned to stone or something else
Agreed.
This was a fantastic video they not only summed up a lot of my issues with Lillith but also raised some points I never even considered such as Lillith world views never seem to be challenged.
I personally think even with the sister angle, there should have been more aminosity between the two thigh you're definitely right about how Luz shouldn't have been so trusting of Lillith.
I think it's important to also recognize just what Lilith did for Edalyn. Yes, Lilith might have cursed Eda in the first place . . . but the first real act of her redemption was to take on that curse to lessen it for her sister. A curse that could be compared to a slow, painful, terminal illness. And she was still willing to do this because it was the only thing she could do to step back into her Sister's good graces.
And as much as Lilith might be forgiven, her misdeeds are not forgotten.She is teased about them frequently, and every time she reacts with pain. She knows she did bad. She very likely has known she's been in the wrong for a long, LONG time, but not seen a way to step out of it. Her desire to right her mistake and (in a way, just as importantly) make sure that it wasn't futile in the first place, blinded her to Belos's lie.
And then we find out that her mistake caused far more harm to her family than just to Edalyn. Souring Eda's relationship with their mother and father. Lily has almost certainly been blaming herself for that for YEARS. It's likely at least one reason she's fallen out of touch with the family as well, every time she sees her father the guilt of what happened and her part in it just bites at her and pulls at her.
In short, I think it's important to recognize that the guilt and remorse that we might hope to see in a redemption arc won't always be direct or on screen, and that some things do need to be implied. And I get that a lot from Lilith. After all . . . the moment Belos came out, bold-faced, with his lie . . . that was the moment she left. The moment she was done.
In steven universe PDs arc was given to us in reverse.
My brain interpreted the quick trust for Lilith because of "She didn't realize the full scope of what the curse had done to Eda. Once she did, and she still willingly took on the curse onto herself. She realized how detrimental it was to Eda"
I feel like we are all forgetting that she cursed Eda when she was only, what, 13? 16 at absolute max. After that she had to realice that the curse was permanent, not a one day thing like she asumed. Sure, she got to join the coven she wanted, but not only did she have to live with knowing she screwed up, but with everything else to. Seeing her sister suffer, getting more and more ignored by her mom, seeing her dad get hurt becouse of somethibg she caused, not to mention the extrem mental tool that the emperors coven seems to put on people and watching her sister become an outlaw. Than she finally get's a silver of hope to fix what she did through a promise that seems to good to be true, only thing she has to so is get Eda in front of the emperor. And instead of using blunt force, she instead tries confincing,bargening, tricking, bets...basically anything else until things get to the breaking point where her own live is put on the line if she fails again, making her even more desperate leading to her trying kidnaping. (Also, let's not forget that killing/nearly killing kids doesn't seem to be a tabu thing on the boiling isles. We see it happen multiple times, with multiple characters. Since many people like to point out "but she threw Luz of a cliff!" )
For me, her redemption arc didn't start with her figuring out that Belos lied. It started all the way back when she realiced she screwed up and permanently hurt her beloved little sister. Becouse from thar point on, she tried to do anything she could to find a way to undo what she did and ended up failing and failing and failing over and over and over again. Lilith is what now? Early 30? That are roughly 14 years (at minimum if we asume she was 16) of guilt and failed attempts to make things better eating away on someone, including the abusive work inviroment the emperors coven seems to be. Oh, and let's not forget that she had to deal with all of that on her own since she is never shown to have had friends and her parents where bussy beeing Edas safety net! So while Eda got stuck with a horrible curse that caused her trauma, she at least had people to lean on (even if she didn't accepted there help), where as Lilith had to deal with all her stuff all alone fir years. With all that, I'm actually suprised she managed to stay a somewhat cheerfull person instead of becoming depressed or resenting Eda!
"Also, let's not forget that killing/nearly killing kids doesn't seem to be a tabu thing on the boiling isles. We see it happen multiple times, with multiple characters. Since many people like to point out "but she threw Luz of a cliff!""
That's dumb. Considering how Eda reacted to Luz being put in danger at all when she showed up to fight, it was made pretty clear that she takes that seriously and would not just shrug it off. The beliefs of the Boiling Isles as a whole doesn't figure into this. And even if it did, Luz is not from the Boiling Isles. So if anyone should have given Lilith the cold shoulder for a much longer time than she actually did, it's Luz.
"With all that, I'm actually suprised she managed to stay a somewhat cheerfull person instead of becoming depressed or resenting Eda!"
If she did resent Eda, she'd have been completely irredeemable. She has no right to do so, and she knew it. Especially if it involves her parents focusing on Eda, because guess whose fault that was to begin with?
@@damkylan3 of course Eda would have the right to stay mad at Lilith, becouse Eda is the one that got hurt. But I think she herselfe alredy noticed that her sister had to deal with the consequences of what she did for roughly 14 years. Eda is more forgiving than the fandom in that regard.
And Luz not beeing from the boiling isles isn't an argument. If you move to canada, you'd still have to follow canadian law. Right now Luz lives in the booling isles, meaning if killing kids is seen as a lawfull neutral or even lawfully allowed, she'd have to deal with that. Sure, she COULD stay angry about it, becouse she is the one that was thrown of a cliff. Wouldn't change that she'll probably end up in more than one other scenario where people will try to kill her.
All that is simply to say: I think the fandom shouldn't judge a character by our worlds moral standard. For us, killing kids is a no go. In the boiling isle, it isn't and Lilith grew up knowing that. For us, cursing someone is iredemeable (arguably), for Eda it isn't, and she is the only one in a position to really judge Lilith for it.
i think the lilith redemption was ended fast because season 3 was cut too short
King and Luz are kids in this moment. Kids easly dorgiving.
I feel like Lilith's redemption suffered because the show was rushed and season 3 was cancelled
Know what I don't understand Lilith split the curse and neither can use magic? Even when Eda had to take a lot of elixir arguable when she was worse then now and definitely in worse condition than Lilith. She was still able to use magic. If the curse was cut in half they should be able to use magic because even in its worst stages Eda could still use magic.
Another thing couldn't they just find some more people and keep splitting the curse until its effects were barely noticeable. Just weaken the curse till its a non issue.
Technically, Lilith isn't completely out of magic. She can still use a bit, it's just not strong. Same for Eda, but more...drastic since her trying a levitation spell basically blows up in her face, while Lilith trying an ice spell just leads to...verry tiny ice xD
I think the curse might be preventing there bile sacks from filling up again, since it was alredy at it's basically final stage when Lilith split it. If that's the case, they both are probably stuck with what ever amount of magic energy was left in them at the time the curse was split.
Another posibility could be that the curse is simply eating away at there magic faster than they can fill up again.
The pain-share spell might also be something only a view people are able to use, since Lilith is the only one we ever saw use it. And it seems to work in the way that the cast get's half the pain, but can't transfere his own pain to others. Meaning as long as they don't find other people who can use the spell AND are willing to put up with a live long curse, there is no way for them to split the curse farther to test what would happen.
@@aniflowers1998 What I'm saying is the spell they used split the strength of the curse in half. If they split it again their magic should be decently strong again. Because the curse would be too weak to do any real damage to their magic.
If your theory about the bile sack is true, weakening the curse should take more pressure off the bile sack allowing better magic casting. At least in theory.
4:39
I disagree with this statement for one reason. He was so readily able to fix her mind within the Owl Beast state. I do indeed think he could heal her, but by this point, he no longer wants to. She would serve his cause better as an example of what earning his ire costs, than what being in his good graces rewards. Especially since she was a symbol of rebellion by this point, and the thing that puts the lie to his whole operation, given she is able to live on her own, outside his system.
Thanks to lillith, Eda has a sexy harpy form. Soo it's all good
When you reach the end of your rope, tie a knot in it and hang on. -
I mean even in the good stories characters get over people trying to murder them pretty quickly
I don't and probably won't forgive Lillith for all her shit but.. it's done? They've forgiven her for whatever reason and there's not a damn thing we can do about it but enjoy or hate the fun Lillith moments and frankly I enjoy enjoyment.
Just because she shares a curse with her sister now doesn't mean she gets off easy
That "only one spot" thing always seemed like bullshit to me. Belos is all about control, specifically about yoking the strength of the most powerful or those with the most potential into his personal coven. Do you mean to tell me that he'd really pass on Eda if it came down to it, especially seeing what the woman is capable of now? If she'd never been cursed, she'd likely be even more powerful, especially given her more uninhibited nature compared to... well pretty much every other witch on the Boiling Isles. She's more creative and more willing to take risks, even when she was a kid (jumping into the freaking portal she found in the dirt?). If ever there was a time he'd bend whatever rules stand for the selection process, it should've been for the Clawthorne sisters.
siblings rivalry standard
I agree with like 90% of your points. My biggest issue is her naïvety being used as a point against her morality. A character flaw, sure, but I don't think it should be used to indicate morality. You don't CHOOSE to be naïve. And I think believing Belos is tied to thinking it was safe enough to buy a random curse scroll from the Night Market.
Secondly, while I agree about lost opportunity in the show and execution, I think measuring her suffering as a metric of earning redemption is fundamentally an exercise that i think just is not a healthy way of looking at forgiving people. i totally could've misunderstood your intention when bringing up that evidence though
one think i people treat these things into a "redemption arc" when all that happened was how she was accepted for her faults but not really redeemed. She still has a long way to go, which will hopefully be touched on s2b or s3.
Wow you’re a really smart , Frankly yeah with all the crap she pulled he has a lot apologizing to do
6:42 I don't think so. Belos has only been in power for 50 years, enforcing brands for everyone takes some time to set up.
I think Eda should be the most angry at Lilith considering Lilith almost killed her kid...
I used to think she did. But than my dad threatened to kill my mom. I know i would die if he did that. So now with all my desperation and suicidalness now killing people to protect my mom looks all the more justifiable. I really feel like I'm going nuts. I know murder is wrong but i really think he is capable of it. I don't know what I'm capable of doing irl but in the owl house were she can be forgiven for that i can no longer put myself on a high enough pedestal to say that i wouldn't have to think about not being willing to do the same thing to protect ourselves. I think I'm capable of being a decent human being. I would die for my mother because i know how i would feel if my dad killed her in front of me. I forgive her even though she abused me. I'm so desperate i would definitely accept anything that could even possibly save her. Back than I would've never thought i could feel this way. But trauma does things to you. My only coping mechanism is ignoring my problems. I have no support system abd especially no moral support and I'm stuck in my head all day to think whatever delusional or whatever thought i want to think. Oh and liliths ears are so cute they remind me of a cat. Do i like myself or think I'm a decent human being? Idk.
She did and I think that they could have done more with her too. But hopefully they will in the future? And its a shame that we still don't know her crow palisman name is?
She went off... Like henry... In thomas the tank engine...
"Sir topham hat said I can sleep at the sheds near vicarstown from now on"
What I mean is in the thomas and friends episode "forever and ever" henry leaves the main cast with one simple line. And that was the line I just put. Lilith also left off with one line to where she was going. She was going to live with her mother. Either they didn't like her as a character like mattel did to henry,or henry is a waste of air to mattel,and lilith had more potential. Idk. But her leaving brought back those horrible memories... Of mattel kicking henry off the main cast.. With one f*cking line...
I was under the impression that Lilith has yet to finish her redemption arc. I don’t know if she will be redeemed by the end, but I believe she will at least be able to have a sibling relationship with Eda by the end of the show rather than the trauma-bonding they currently have
Oh did your mic quality and video quality shoot up? This sounds lot better.
I love Lilit, but she is forgiven too easily.
maybe if there were 20 episodes in season 1, one of them could be based on the whole Amity/Lilith thing?
I disagree with the idea that it'd make more sense for Luz to blame Lilith in episode 1 of season 2. Stealing an artifact from the castle was a dumbass plan from the get go, and Belos was aware of them even before Lilith found them. If it wasn't her, it would've been someone else, and it could've been a lot worse since that someone else wouldn't care about any of them, Lilith at least cares about Eda. Also, when Lilith stopped her from taking the hat she also said it wouldn't work, and I'm more inclined to believe someone who's likely been in contact with it several times over someone who read a pamphlet. I also don't see Lilith''s turn as a redemption to begin with. From the start her character has always had two sides, head of emperor's covenant, and Eda's sister. The last two episodes play into the emperor's covenant side, but every other episode she's in plays more into the sister side, were despite what she says she never tries to bring Eda in by force (In the body swap episode she thought Eda getting captured was an unconscious cry for help as she believes she's too skilled to have gotten caught like that. That said, I'd rather shove the body swap episode into Eda's closet as it's terrible, just like every other body swap episode forced into shows, with the only exception I can think of off the top of my head being the one in gravity falls). Lilith had always been trying to keep these two sides together but the choice in the finale forced her to choose which aspect is more important to her, and in the end, Eda won out. Well, that's how I viewed it anyway, though it might be a bit biased. I always had a positive perception of Lilith because episode 5 made me think, 'oh she's exactly like Eda, just without self confidence' and I love Eda.
Oh my stars, that Fairytopia line
I absolutely think that they could have made the hatred Luz had for Lilith play a bigger role in season 2. I would have loved for the first episode of 2a to play out virtually the same, only Luz is still not able to forgive Lilith. Then either as the 2nd or 3rd episode of the season, have an episode where the main plot is Luz reluctantly taking Lilith on a quest of some kind (like Katara does Zuko). And then after Lilith proves her loyalty on that quest, Luz finally forgives her
I'm actually on the side of Idle scree with this. As they say, the owl house doesn't have "redemption arcs" exactly. Instead, Luz shows the people their wrong doings, enlightens them basically and they redeem themselves.
I feel like Lilith lost too much for her to really have a “redemption arc”. Maybe she could find a new purpose with her parents cause the emperors covin was literally all that she had and I think that’s why Luz is ok with her. Also if Eda is ok with her, Luz is ok with her.
no
What was even the point of having Lilith move into the Owl House when she was going to leave just as quickly as she came?
Family relationships overshadow a lot, it's amazing what you're willing to forgive your sibling for. I think that's kinda realistic in a crazy way. Ok is Peridot the only modern redemption that had enough ground work? Every other arch is so rushed.
I love how they did the trope of showing a character who's clearly drunk on non alcoholic stuff like ice cream or they swig out of a water flask when stressed, everyone knows what's happening but what are the censors gonna do?
7:58 Thats Concerning...
I feel like they first wrote Lillith as a full on villain, then wanted to go in a different direction, but we're too far into production so they had to squeeze it in.
I wholeheartedly believe that her redemption would have been better if the crew knew if they had a full third season or not. We're not getting to see how the show would be if they were given the length of showtime they asked for and I think that's why season 2, as amazing as it's been, has felt a bit short. Season 1 had so much time to establish and now it feels so lopsided that season 1 had all that time dedicated to things like Hexide, which Dana didn't even want to make a major plot point. Now we're getting a bit of a rawer look at what Dana wanted but at the cost of time. I think that what we got was amazing for the time we have left.
Also the one hurt was Eda and I think the others understand it's not their apology to accept, it's Eda's. If Eda says It's good I think the rest of the Bad Girl's coven understands that as the people not wronged it's not up to them and to treat Lillith the way Eda does. Does that mean redemption to the audience? Not necessarily but there isn't a way to quantify how redeemed a character is and individually we decide that.
Good Vid! Hope to see more Owl House stuff from you~
I always like watching your vids, they bring up good points of shows I have watched, and you tend to bring up good points most of the time, there are sometimes where. I disagree cause. well humans are humans we're all stupid creatures. I do agree, luz forgave lilith a bit fast, King however, snice he was often with eda I could see him be fine, and it seem more like he enjoys mocking people. besides king would feel it was best to share some information for someone a bit. I disgree, yeah she definetily get off to easily luz should've been a bit less trusting. and her getting basically removed from the main cast during her arc. was like, kinda dumb :p... but it doesn't feel as much as bad writing as speed running .... and wow I was typing this cause I was bored and too tired to play video games at the moment. but holy crude we agreed. she got off a bit easy. but not too easy............well I just wasted the last 5 mins typing this.... we could just say 1 snice I was watching during this time frame... yes I'm a screw up
While Lilith was head of the Emperor's Coven, she was kept in the dark by everyone. Belos kept her around to hunt Eda to get the Portal, and the CATTs naturally kept their rebellion secret. And after Lilith defected, Belos didn't go further than getting rid of the propaganda featuring her because he still needed her and Luz to complete the Time Loop. (And you can't tell me he didn't take pleasure in destroying the foundation of Lilith's devotion.)
Lilith in session 1: hate able
Lilith in session 2: one of my favorite characters
the diamonds aren’t redeemed the diamonds aren’t redeemed the diamonds aren’t redee-
Wait… Peridot was an abuser towards Lapiz?
They where never in any kind of relationship, it was entirely a job for both of them, Peridot said it herself, she was given a job, an informant and muscle, that’s all
If anything their boss was the abuser, but even then, the relationship wasn’t close enough, the best description would be a job that forced their worker to relive their trauma while not thinking about them (something jobs are know to do, the difference is that Lapiz can’t quit the job while Peridot can be easily replaced but they don’t want to waste the resources), the abuser storyline was with Jasper (who was forgiven way too fast in future because Steven killed her and revived her)
But Hooty is the main character, and he likes her, so no need to have an episode to convince everyone.
I think my main thing I'd add is that actually it *does* feel similar to Amity's redemption. The owl house seems to be good at writing good stories for redemption but pacing them badly. Yes, at the start of season 2, they ignore Lilith's wrongdoings. They do the same with Amity really. I would definitely say that Lilith's actions were worse than Amity's but i still didn't feel either got a full arc. something is cut out of it.
Amity: Super mean > wait, maybe she's pressured by her parents a lot > Yeah, her parents are definitely abusive > Gay > She's friends with Luz, Willow and Amity now so she's good and stands up for herself the end
I still love Amity and her arc is better than Lilith's probably but neither redemption arc was really paced well
7:32 I'm sure that Sarah-Nicole Robles wanted to say "bitch", but realized that it's a kid's cartoon. My in-universe explanation is that Luz's family is Catholic, and Camila raised Luz to not curse people out, even if they've literally cursed her mentor who's become like a second mother to her, and if Luz swore, Camila would find out, and wash her mouth out with soap.
Yeah she got off easily
I don't like how this actively reinforces the belief you have to forgive and be friends with people who have seriously hurt you just because they are your blood family, unless they are seriously abusive like Amity's parents. Both Lilith and Eda's mom got off too easily imo, it's not like they can't be forgiven but the way they were forgiven is terrible. Literally the entire reason was "oh but we're family who cares I neglected you or hurt you because of my own selfishness WE'RE FAMILY GET OVER IT ALREADY". They both care about Eda but they didn't do enough to be redeemed, especially not Lilith.
Hooty is part of the titan
Bro, she was never bad to begin with.
Ohh an SU reference? Mmm yeah. Going to ignore that.
If eda didn't want to fight her sister why didn't she say so earlier. She just wanted a grandeos moment which is also selfish. She knew how much Lilly wanted it.
Yes Lilith shouldn't have cursed her but sibling riviarly is a real thing. One gets more praise than the other and the other will turn resentful... Lilly was a child.
So many other characters have done so much worse
yet everyone says Lilly is the worst witch ever (SHE WAS A CHILD GUYS. Kids don't think things through! She only wanted it to last a day she didnt do it out of malace) ppl give catra a pass even though she's an adult while abusing adroa
Eda also cheated with Luz but ppl dont care. They expect more from Lilly that's why they hated on her so much is is also unfair with siblings.
My older sister could get away with murder but if I did anything bad my parents acted like it was the end of the world.
I gotta say, I’m not a shipper, but Lumity.
Her riedemption arc didn't feel fulfilling in may opinion, Aï think ðät shie mäy häve gotten off to̊ easily
Short version: yes I do believe Lilith got off too easy.
Edit: you lost me when you said Pink Diamond had a good redemption arc. No. No she didn't.
Pink Diamond’s redemption can be good if you consider the fact your seeing it backwards. She was good in the present day, though she still makes mistakes, but she had a past she probably was ashamed of.
Yes
In so confused what were you trying to say about gwendolyn?
This is kind of scary. I hate how she spitballs ideas and, according to the latest episodes, they turned out to be true.
I see some points but I think that emporoer had more involvement in eda curse