Roger Penrose: Black Holes, Art and Science, and the Beginning and End of Time.
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- Опубліковано 1 чер 2024
- In this video podcast Roger Penrose and Lawrence Krauss discussed his life and work in science, mathematics, art and beyond, including the work for which he won the Nobel Prize, and his recent highly controversial proposal regarding the beginning and end of the Universe.
Support the Origins Podcast and get access to exclusive bonus content at lawrencekrauss.substack.com/ - Наука та технологія
I think Dr Krauss was a bit over-zealous in his questioning of CCC, to the point where on multiple occasions it was difficult for Penrose to give a complete answer. But, as always, Penrose was a gentleman.
I hate to say so but i felt the same. I really respect both the host and the guest, but I think in this case Lawrence time and time again literally overwhelmed Roger blocking him. It might be appropriate for a scientific debate where the point is to establish truth (although one can argue about it), but it's definitely not the point on a podcast where the point is for the guest to open up.
Nothing against LK but I’m only here for Sir Roger.
Sir Roger Penrose is 90 years old. How he is still this sharp and as healthy as ever is truly phenomenal.
Great minds take time to deteriorate 👍🏻
I wish I was half this sharp at my 38 ...
exactly eh ?
Well.... he is a Genius...
@queerdo You mean Krauss has been feeding the adrenochromes to Penrose and that's why he's so healthy? He must be!
This is a rare personal interview of Penrose. Only someone with Lawrence Krauss' s broad background could dig patiently and deeply into Penrose's past. Thank you Dr. Krauss.
Your the host, your brilliant talking to a brilliant man, your enthusiasm gets the better of you though. Please Lawrence let your guests speak, you might be the star of your podcast, maybe work on listening and let your guests have some of that star shine.
Thank you very much Roger and Lawrence for a wide ranging discussion and for the exploration of Roger's early life. Lawrence you do an excellent job of excavating the origins of those you interview, thank you.
and Penrose is smarter. I wouldn't lecture Einstein.
I enjoy the back and forth in every episode. Keep doing you, that's why people watch/listen to you
Maybe it's a Canadian thing. J B Peterson does exactly the same to his guests - incessant interruptions when the guest is only halfway through a thought; it's so bloody irritating. I admire both said Canadians - maybe it's the small price we have to pay for such outstanding minds meeting. I agree with you, though.
@@johnlindgren273Eh. Dispute is where the truth is found. And Dr. Krauss brought me into the science fold and is not exactly described as an idiot. I feel like he has all the certification in the world to push back on a previous generation scientist if he decides he is right to do so. It's not impolite. It's discourse in pursuit of discovery and I assure you both parties understand this.
Yes, take each issue one at a time. Don’t talk over your guest and raise 5 objections, then interrupt them with 4 more when they’re trying to answer the first one.
This was really good, but have the potential to be SO MUCH better!
Lawrence had to admit he didn't even understand the work of Penrose, but shouted his ego at the face of his guest in and completely unpleasant and disrespectful way. Sir Roger, with the calm of someone who knows his work and the patience of his 90-years-old, refuted one by one of Krauss attacks (I'll not say it was points of disagreement, because if Krauss took the time, and took the work seriously, he could discuss it in a productive way, instead of shouting and interrupting).
in the end, Penrose VERY elegantly told the anecdote of Brian Green and Krauss understood that it was for him, admitted to be biased and to have prejudices about CCC but even them made this ridiculous claim about “in the edge of the physics anything goes, as we don't know”. Well, we're always in the edge of the physics, but science is not shouting your ego at people you disagree because you have bias, science don't care about your bias.
If Krauss disagree with Penrose's CCC he should first READ IT and UNDERSTAND IT, and then publish a paper refuting it. CCC can be right or can be wrong, it can be ridiculous as Keppler's elliptical orbits once was, but the ridiculesness of a theory has no bearing of it's true (or false) nature. What we saw is not science, this was just an insecure little man shouting on an old genius. Sorry Penrose, you deserved better, you deserved to be taken serious, at least.
(Sorry if I'm being too harsh. Sorry for my bad english, I'm brazilian, it's not my main language. Sorry about my lack of scientific knowledge, I'm just a photographer)
I totally agree, the american to the right strayed from the path of wisdom when he started shouting and simplifying the components of Penrose's ccc theory. In fact cosmic inflation are just as speculative and there are currently no proofs to be found. One should not impose such theories on anyone as if they are "unavoidable facts" but instead approach them carefully with a great deal of respect and humility like the genius to the left. Science got hurt by this and it's a sad thing.
While Lawrence does insert/assert himself a bit much in some conversations I think he was respectful and fair giving Sir Roger time to explain his arguments and rationales. I think it was a great exchange and even Sir Roger conceded on a couple of topics he's not as sure about dismissing inflation after the witty and different way to explain the arguments for from Krauss. Roger doesn't get much out of many conversations that challenges him and his thinking directly and appreciated this one more than most others. That's a wonderful thing.
Excellent podcast, only thing is to please try to be conscious of when you're debating because your voice ends up taking over. You cut in a lot because you know what Roger is going to say but we don't know what he is going to say. Roger's voice is very soft that anytime you want to cut in you are able to but when he wants to cut in he is unable to. We end up missing out on a lot of what Roger was going to say. It's great hearing your counters, it would just be nice to also know Rogers full side before each of your counters.
So true. I felt like a special snowflake when I added a comment like this, but apparently multiple people have already pointed this out.
Lawrence isn’t interested in talking to these people. He’s interested in being seen talking with these people. He’s a clout chaser.
@@andybaldman nah. for him confidence in his own opinion is just more important than supporting a dialog. which is very common for many academics.
Krauss talked over Penrose with soliloquies. Penrose listened. Therefore Penrose learned something and Krauss did not.
Roger Penrose is a treasure of this crazy world. I love his scrupulous honesty and humility. His anecdotes are linguistic tiles that cover the spaces of both math AND physics. Thanks, Lawrence!
This is such a beautiful comment!
Roger Penrose is one of the most intelligent people ever
Depending on how you define intelligence. "Ever"? How can that not be nonsense?
@@vhawk1951kl Well how innovative and accomplished in fields such as physics/mathematics does one have to be to be described in such a way, then? What are your standards?
Well. That's "easy". In order to deserve Sir Roger Penrose magnitude of Respect it'll suffice that you will be a guy who's saving physicalism from postmodernistic nonsense of Dennet and Bostrom and Everett!
Absolutely phenomenal man. Imagine being 90 years old and admitting how many times you have been wrong about things, whilst also being a Nobel prize winner and basically advancing humanities understanding of the universe through sitting and thinking in the tradition of Plato. What a family! Thanks you so much for this astonishing free content Professor ❤️
Plato promoted commutative geometry and Penrose now realizes the foundation of reality is noncommutativity - thereby disproving Plato. Oops.
That is the idea. Try things out and don't worry about being wrong. That is what Thomas Edison did.
I'm reading his book "the Road to Reality" which helps a lot for my understanding of math and physics and motivates me to continue studying
Sir Roger Penrose is such a great mind!
This is the mother of all Penrose interviews!
I just love your podcast, you are actually bringing intellectual people who know what they are talking about!
Big fan of Roger Penrose.
Obviously big fan of Laurence. Massive fan of Penrose. It's brilliant when someone as intelligent in his field and many other things (Laurence) still looks to Roger with admiration and respect. It's not a love fest. They slightly disagree on possibilities but do it with such eloquence, understanding of opposing views and always full of respect. One of my favourite interviews ever. Ps-you are both quite dry and witty. Very good friendly discussion about the beautiful everyday.
.
This podcast is a very, very special gift for me I would like to thank you.
The scientist is really imoressive and certeanly relevant, because my very beloved Sir Roger Penrose is making history with my also beloved Prof. Hameroff.
But even most important for me than this is their precious message of understanding and loving the beauty of life itself.
Wish I could express some day my deepest love and respect to Sir Roger Penrose.
Wish I could say him and Prof. Hameroff "THANK YOU" for giving full sense to my tragedy and make possible turn my dreams of being useful to our planet into a wonderful humble legacy of peace for generations to come.
Sir Roger Penrose :
THANK YOU FOR ALL.
For giving back happiness again to that Child who was born under the Calar Alto Astronomical Observatory and dreamed about being an Astronomer to meet God.
Now I found it.
And I discovered thanks to you the beauty of the Creation inside my own dreams and life.
There is no such other Wonder in the world so nicest as this precious gift you gave to that Child who dreamed about being Astronomy to meet some day God.
I already found it.
Here.
Between you, Humanity, our Universe and me.
And this most wonderful dream I ever had.
You will be in my heart forever, Sir Roger Penrose.
But I never could express my sincere gratitude to you with intensity you deserve.
But I do so with a sincere apprentice's love to his father and Master :
Sir Roger Penrose.
💙
🙏 🕊️ 🫂
❤️
.
Myabe if Krauss would let the man talk, we'd learn something.
The last third of the podcast was really difficult to get into due to this.
This is the best origins podcast because he actually does way more than usual. It's his biggest flaw, same as Neil deGrasse Tyson. The episode with Sabine was horrible because he was patronizing and dismissive on top of it.
F
Yes. Very annoying.
Yes, he must learn to listen and master the skill of interviewing.
I've left few messages in past for inviting sir Roger Penrose to your program and it finally happened. =D I am grateful for this. Thank you
What a delight! They don't know me but I feel like I just had three hours chatting with two old friends.
Laurence has managed to tease out a lot of new stories out of Roger, than the ones I normally hear from him on a podcast.
This conversation is amazing. If there was more evidence for Science being constantly subjective and not “the science” so often claimed this is it. You two are a credit to humanity.
You guys changed my life with your wisdom..
This is a perfect example of the incredible worth of the Internet- the sharing of human knowledge. Awesome back-and-forth. 🌿
One of the great things about these video podcasts is that you can get interviews with 90 year old guests who you would not be able to get if they had to travel to a studio for the interview.
Conversations like this are everything we hoped the internet might be.
Lawrence with the amazing information, the pleasant, sensual ASMR voice… and that adorable, cheeky grin.
I love Penrose’s little, posh accent and childlike smile. It’s such a privilege to hear these two. ♥️ I’m enjoying listening to a bit more about Penrose and how he grew up.
We have so much of the same interests in videos. Hilarious to hear about your crush 🤣
He must agree with you. "Several women had accused Krauss of sexual misconduct, describing behavior that went unchecked for over a decade. By the time Krauss stepped foot on Stanford’s campus for the gathering, he had been banned from three universities, removed from multiple speaking events, and was under a formal investigation by Arizona State University, his primary affiliation."
He’s married you home wrecker
Amazing conversation, was listening to it while cleaning the house lol. I'm impressed by sir Penrose's memory, I'm 26 yet could not remember where I put my glasses 1h ago while this gentleman is 90 and remembers in detail many events of his life!
Him and Chomsky are on a different level.
Because memory isnt the reality ,our brain get the concept and branches that
@@user-pz8yd2vf1f Not sure what you mean nor am I sure you understood Dinorah’s point. This man is referencing things from his early education with credible sources I’m sure you could verify if you cared. That is not a concept. That is brute brain power.
A comment about the issue at 2:01:00 .
The problem has to do with the start of inflation. If the ( generalized) second law of thermodynamics is valid, then the initial conditions had to be extremely fine tuned, because ( see Gibbons / Hawking/ Davies and others) the " effective" cosmological constant ( due to the inflaton field) had to be very large ( and, so, the initial gravitational entropy- which is, roughly, inversely proportional to that effective c.c.- had to be very low, for the inflationary period to begin), and that's in accordance with Penrose's point.
There is also another subtle point, that anthropic arguments ( about the multiverse of eternal inflation etc.) are not that relevant for that issue.
That's because it is the start of the inflationary era that is thermodynamically disfavored, as it seems, not the " local" decay of the inflaton field that, supposedly, produces each one " pocket" universe.
I'm not saying, though, that inflation certainly isn't a thing, because of that issue. My point is that Penrose's objections are , in my opinion, valid.
I've waited for this talk my whole life. This really made my year.
Same dude
different dude
same
I did too. As with Roger's conversation with Alan Guth, however, Krauss could not shut the f... up, which just made me cringe the whole way through. In a manner similar to Guth's, he had to make it about himself with a constant stream of "look how smart I ams" and never let Penrose finish a thought to completion. I just _loved_ how Roger sat back and smiled the whole way through. After interrupting more than once, Krauss said, "Let me ask you one more question and I will let you answer." And then he did not do that. He was already talking over Roger, meaning Krauss did not _listen_ to a single thing Penrose said. Could you keep track of which entropy he was talking about and whether it was supposed to be high or low and at which end of the Universe? Perhaps that's the problem with Guth, Krauss, et al.: they are modelling the Inflationary Multiverse after how their brains operate.
@@johnjamesbaldridge867 What I like about Krauss is that he is actually willing to poke his guests and challenge them. But I agree that he often goes way overboard. I was disheartened when I tuned in to the live and saw Penrose with his head in his hands looking almost frustrated.
Dr. Krauss, to have Sir Penrose on your show, is an amazing way to capture history! I’m so excited to watch, as well as to hopefully have you on my show sometime soon following your events in Canada!
the Origins podcast!. Can you imagine if, back in the early 1950's, Richard Feynman interviewed Einstein, Oppenheimer, Heisenberg, Dirac, Hubble and Lemaître? That is what Doctor Krauss is doing right now.
Richard is a Nobel prize winner, tell me again what are the Krauss breakthroughs? This is a horrible interview he doesn’t let the man even speak you’re just a groupie I believe
@@carlosbiancososa9151 sympathetic men, not difficult to spend some time listening really, leaving out equations, he doesn't intend to disturb or puzzle you, thanks!!!
I love having access to listen to these brilliant minds while I’m stuck at work changing tires…
Absolutely amazing that this conversation is captured. Imagine the future generations who can benefit from watching two legends in conversation. The benefits of the technological age are fantastic.
Krauss' podcasts are very stimulating and ultimately rewarding, but they would be exponentially more enlightening if he would talk much less and let the guests explore and at least finish their own thoughts without constant distracting interuptions. I think a fair empirical study of the podcast content (any one of them) would show that he spends much more time talking than allowing his guests to talk, even when he is attempting to get his guests to clarify something. Given the intellectual stature of the guests he is so successfully able to attract, this is regrettable. I do enjoy his enthusiasm and his liveliness, as well as his very capacious intelligence, and even his genuinely sincere and spontanious style, but I am sure none of it would be lost if he were to button it up occasionally. It is clear to me that Penrose would have said much more to clarify his positions and his fascinating history had Krauss just let him do so.
Spot on.
This is by far the best interview I’ve seen with Sir Roger. Well done, Lawrence! It was so clear that you loved this conversation so much, and that’s one reason it’s so enjoyable to watch.
Oh wow, just starting the video. I’ve seen just about every Penrose talk on UA-cam. Can’t wait!
Krauss has Penrose repeating material he's already said in other interviews. Oops.
the hardest interview to fully grasp, it seemed impossible to know what sir Penrose was really talking about the first moments when he started diving into his papers regarding black holes and the diverging things lol.
probably I have to search for many things and rewatch it to try to understand it much better.
thanks, prof. Krauss for your precious interviews
Krauss? Zip it!
"We don't have time to debate inflation"
*proceeds to debate inflation theory for the next hour*
Classic
Lawrence, this is a freaking AMAZING podcast words can’t even explain!!!!
How beautiful and interesting this conversation is. It is like a clear night sky watching for me. Origins podcast is literally an inspiration to young people who interested in science. How simple these noble personalities are . Thank you Lawrence for making this podcast amazing.
These Nobel personalities 👊
The universe exists because we perceive it. One of the best conversations of Sir Roger Penrose I've heard
Lovely interview. Dr. Penrose is such a treasure of knowledge and experience.
Interestingly, I just whatched a talk by Penrose where he spoke about the need for "new physics" to comprehend consciousness and he used a series of mosaic pictures to express the difference in computational abilities of computers and humans understanding. I thought his pictures were more artistic than your average physicist.
Roger Penrose - one of the greatest thinkers of all time. With Krauss! Fascinating conversation!
All those years of listening to Penrose on youtube, I was hoping he would get the Nobel prize, and he finally did:)
Listening to Roger is always fun.
Thank you for this lovely interview of this charming, gentle giant of a mind. Professor Penrose has brought so much to this world, including his example of how to be here.
That was a productive talk. Two heavies of mathematics and Cosmology going back and forth. On the cutting edge of modern scientific tech, and I don't have the chops to understand alot of it, but I have been trying my whole life to better my understanding of the way the cosmos works. I very much appreciate both these geniuses. Thank you, Krauss.
What a wonderful and incredible man from a clearly talented family. Just amazing. And a great podcast by Lawrence. Good to see him more relaxed these days and not quite so quick to jump on his guests answers as he was in the early days of the Origins podcasts... Brilliant pod, thank you both so much.
What is amazing and pleasing about this, is how Roger Penrose clearly doesn't want the conversation to end! Excellent interview.
I liked this video a lot, nice discussions with two scientists and many nice stories by Penrose. Towards the end Krauss' discussion turned out to be more like declaration than discussion though. :-)
Yes Sir Penrose was interesting as always, but just like you I wonder what happened when suddenly this Kraus guy started to behave in a disrespectful and ignorant manner towards an old gentleman. He shouldn't interrupt the genius but instead keep quiet and perhaps learn the meaning of science.
What a joy to hear two great teacher on the podcast..Thank you so much..
I don't know math, I don't know physics, but I really enjoy listening to these remarkable ideas.
This is a magnificent interview. Seldom do you see such a well-prepared, energetic, bright, and caring interviewer. In addition, it is quite apparent that Si Roger clearly appreciated every question and quite clearly expressed his delight at the caliber of the questions and insights presented to him. For such a deep and difficult topic to grasp, I found it
truly engaging. A true delight, many tanks.
Well...after watching Sir Roger in such different videos, shows, podcasts, I think what he needs now is his own show, his own time and telling us storries from his life and all the great experiences he had. He needs that, is visible in his joy whevener he mentions some memories while dropping names, heh. Could listen the man for hours.
Excellent, insightful, chill conversation with someone Roger Penrose clearly respects. Thank you.
Thank you so very much for the effort of all involved. I am glad you are alive.
Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation. Whenever I start going deeper into the most sophisticated mathematical ideas behind current physical theories, I get that weird feeling that I'm in a territory that is way above my head. For example, I bought Roger's book "The Road to Reality" some time ago, which I find immensely enjoyable and fascinating, but also absolutely terrifying lol. But still, I always enjoy listening to these kinds of conversations, so thank you again for this.
What an absolute joy listening to the both of you, debating and discussing, that which I can just about keep up with! Lawrence, I think you did an excellent job interviewing Roger, as much for your own curiosity and interest, as well as for the public. I'm British so you'll have to excuse my universal bias, but Roger is a deep thinker and I think he'll be proved right. Until he's proven wrong of course!
It was a pleasure to hear this conversation.
Iam personally a great fan of CCC theory, Sir Roger Penrose is a unique mind in the mould of Einstein.
For me CCC theory makes logical sense .
Almost spit out my coffee at Kraus’s reference to “the unknown Nobel Prize winner.”
Thankyou for the privilege and the pleasure of hearing Sir Roger Penrose expound upon his experiences. He is a true inspiration.
Really good interview, but the last 1/3 you can see Penrose feeling a bit uncomfortable. In fact, you can tell when Penrose feels uncomfortable when he puts his hands around his neck, that when you know you need to take it easy on the guy.
I've seen Penrose say more than once that he's not being taken seriously, and I hope that one day scientists take his theories seriously.
One of the best conversations in a long time. Thank you so much
What a treat, a conversation with Dr. Sir Roger Penrose!
“I won’t interrupt,” is always Krause’s introduction of a series of interruptions.
It's Very Brave of You Lawrence to Suggest We can Figure Out the Start or Finish of Time.
One Interesting thing about Time is You can Consider it Completely Independent of Any Other Physical thing, Including the Entire Universe.
Lawrence Suggests the Universe is a Hot Universe. I Assume he is Referring to the Abundent Stars and the Odd Hot Planet. But Most, by Volume of the Seeable Universe is Very Cold.
Amazing conversation, hoping for part 2 very soon.
What a beatiful interview. I love Penrose stories, it was so enligthimg to the science process. I would suggest you could have a series about scientifics stories, as they are so powerful to bring science.. scientifics, to the non scientific public. And I would certainly love to interview you about your stories.
An invaluable dialogue!
Yeah, and Penrose almost got to speak a few times.
Absolutely fascinating discussion. I love Sir Roger Penrose; he’s such an original thinker - a wonderful way to spend two hours - thank you 🙏🏻
A great debate between two extraordinary individuals. Very very interesting.
Thank you for this wonderful episode!
Listening and also seeing their expressions is so nourishing to my soul. So respectful in at least 10 to10th ways.
I just love this podcast… and Roger and Lawrence… you two seem like good friends and have wonderful amazing good feeling debates!!!:)
Fantastic interview! Thank you both. There may come a time when Penrose is regarded as the greatest physicist of the 21st century...his cyclical model will likely be proven in the next century. A remarkable thinker, with a sincere constitution. I'd love to just sit and discuss the big picture with him.
Going through your greatest story told so far book for the past 6 months trying to understand every word.
Thank you LMK
i trust everything penrose says as he has no ego attatched to his work, he admits when he does not know, hes very honest
You are both fabulous and it is a privilege to witness two greats in the history of humanity sharing arguments.
Wonderful
Enjoyable interview. Learn't more about Penrose in this one interview than any other. Good insight to the nature of this man and his talented family. One for the future archives.
Just when I thought the Stephen Pinker interview was a peak, this just surpassed it. This podcast gives me the biggest smile 🙌🏽
It's absolutely liberating to hear the diverse experiences of intellectual giants like Penrose. The fact his teacher noticed that he was just a slow worker as opposed to being bad at tests. This really resonated with me because I'd always think about the student who just got the answer once the exam had passed ... The grading system in this sense skews the perception of one's credibility and competence.
Completely agreed.Grade doesnot measure intelligence.Person with low grade can be intelligent and even genius
Alot of people shitting on Lawrence for his conversation style. Pretty rude and ignorant. Seems they both enjoyed the exchange and I appreciate the friendly banter and think he was a fine host.
absolutely fab talk, and great to hear a little abrasion toward the end, it in fact help clarify some things i wasn't sure of when it comes to CCC - my favourite theory. two things i'm still confused over, i thought the singularity thing was out of date? and i also thought that "no scientist would say something from nothing" - maybe that needs a bit of clarifying on twitter, as well as hear. thanks everso to the pair of you, roger long may you live - and stop forgetting things!!
We should be excited the man is still dropping knowledge and hear him out. Krauss is a big name in Cosmology, give 'm that. However, he is part of a big faction of scientists believing in Inflation. It is evident that it has become a religion which is not open for debate. Even worse, they employ cancel tactics. The same goes for String Theory btw. Not so strange that Cosmology is in a crisis. Let's hope the community is able to open back up for debating, and learning from differing viewpoints.
What a delight . I love it when you interview other physicists . Thanks
Awesome talk... Thank you both!
Thank you for this great interview, two of my favorite physicists alive.
My two heroes ...👋
Two of my favourite science communicators!! A joy!
I hardly understood a word of it but I thoroughly enjoyed the time I spent with two of the most charming and brilliant men, thanks to you both.
Sir Roger thinks more clearly and articulates himself more surely than I do at 37.
My favorite podcast. This one was particulate interesting. Thank you sir.
That was an excellent conversation especially after about 2 hours when you discuss areas on which you disagree. You show how disagreement should be expressed, with respect.
When Feynman attends your lecture and shouts down a heckler!👏
needed a second listen to this interview by gosh this was a fun conversation what a life penrose has had
Great interview but LK talked too much starting around 2:00:00
I see Roger Penrose I click
Love infinities. Love Penrose’s teaching.
Great discussion really thought it was one of the best.
Curious new hypothesise like CCC continue to amaze. Lawrence, you did a great job discussing this new concept with obvious respect for Roger. Thank you.
That guy is 90 years old and still looking to an answer to how all of this began, fuck !!! That quy really rocks ! Now just let's look forward how this 3C thing will come out !!