Sabine Hossenfelder: Physics, Science Ideology, & More With Lawrence Krauss
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- Опубліковано 12 лис 2021
- **Sabine's video feed cuts out about halfway into the episode**
Sabine Hossenfelder joins Lawrence Krauss for an interesting discussion about theoretical physics, academia, and the philosophy of discovery in science.
Sabine Hossenfelder is a German theoretical physicist, author, and musician who researches quantum gravity. She is a Research Fellow at the Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies where she leads the Superfluid Dark Matter group. She is the author of Lost in Math: How Beauty Leads Physics Astray, which explores the concept of elegance in fundamental physics and cosmology.
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The Origins Podcast, a production of The Origins Project Foundation, features in-depth conversations with some of the most interesting people in the world about the issues that impact all of us in the 21st century. Host, theoretical physicist, lecturer, and author, Lawrence M. Krauss, will be joined by guests from a wide range of fields, including science, the arts, and journalism. The topics discussed on The Origins Podcast reflect the full range of the human experience - exploring science and culture in a way that seeks to entertain, educate, and inspire.
Full Episodes Playlist:
• Ricky Gervais - The Or... - Наука та технологія
Thank you so much for having her on. I like her straight forward personality and honesty.
It was nice to hear Sabine talking a little bit about her biography, what she normally does not. Everytime astonishing, what a multitalent she is. Just finished reading LOST IN MATH. The world needs more such brave rebels like she is.
Thank you Sabine for having Lawrence on your show!! xD
Yeah no doubt. Mr. Krauss talks way too much about his own personal whatever when its his GUEST that is suppose to be in the spotlight. He's not a great interviewer but who is when they start out. He'll get better over time and improve I'm certain. Sabine is a great guest and Its great to hear from her on another level from her own channel. It did seem to put her off at times but their conversation at times was also very very good so.... he's just rough around the edges socially it appears. That will change with time. Also the 'agist' stuff talking down to her 'you're young' blah blah... like, "does this really need said?" "does it need said multiple times?" Do you need to talk down to someone you've asked on your show? Do you just talk down to people in general? I think he'll work these things out over time but yes, they are distracting.
@@Cinnabuns2009 Or not.
@@Cinnabuns2009 He seemed off in this interview. Sabine is a great guest, maybe he was nervous let's see next time if the jitters are gone.
He likes more to present himself. I'm his age and I like his political positions, but instead of telling Sabine about three times, that she's too young for deeper understanding, he should ask, if he's too old in that case.
lol
Dr. Hossenfelder is an amazing guest, it was nice of her to come on and interview Lawrence on his own show
Hossenfelder's "detachment" from the physics community is exactly why I like her. There seems to be a clubbiness in the scientific community (not as bad as in non-scientific endeavors, but it's still noticeable). This can be productive, undoubtedly, but it can also lead to "group think" as with anything else.
Not just the scientific community but academe in general. :-)
Well said, I agree with you. She is so brilliant and besides that she is courageous, it's not easy to do what she does.
That's because she debunks real scientists and they probably get pissed off
Rebel is needed for scientists also, to push science forward. All the others, they cheers 'yes big bang... yes..dark matter.. yes... dark energy', it makes me sick.
@@chompchompnomnom4256 You're suggesting that she's not a "real scientists"?
Sabine is the most interesting science communicator of all times. Her direct communication style is irritatingly captivating. Whenever I am tired and stressed I make a pause listen to one of Sabine´s videos and I get recharged for a week.
Irritatingly captivating?? Like you’re captivated to the point of irritation? I don’t understand this concept.
@@joshualaureano7062 they're still working on a concept definition for the term.
Two of my favorite scientists. You guys are absolute rockstars. How lucky are we to be able to enjoy this content with the only requirements being: an internet connection and a computer/phone.
I'm very grateful you had this conversation.
Two great physics spokesperson having a casual free discussion. Thank you for making this possible!
“I learn by teaching.” I love that. So true in my experience.
Two of my favorite science communicators! Yay!
I've no kowledge of sciencie whatsoever but I really enjoyed this conversation. I always watch science programes, even if you don't understand, f.i. that two atoms can be in two places at the same time, something happens in your brain, a door opens and leaves you in contact with something new. And we do have the experience of being thus divided anyway. Thanks for sharing your enthusiasm.
Yes, I've seen vids recently on how little the two haves of our brains talk to each other.
I see Sabine, I click. Then I saw Lawrence Krauss and clicked harder. How did I go this long without knowing about The Origins Podcast?
Great to have you as a part of our community!
@@TheOriginsPodcast I'm learning about you from this too! Subscribed.
This is an example of how every discource should be. Its clear they veer apart on certain beliefs. But have clear respect and understanding of eachother. Using there conversation to learn. I love these two.
Quite right!
wow she has balls. i love how she pushes back on lawrence with such determination and almost conviction even. i also loved how deep the argument went even though i'm not a particle physicist and i don't know enough about some things they're discussing.
after this conversation even more than even i want to see her on sean carroll's podcast.
Well,Krause isn't a bully.
Nope. No balls. She is a woman. She has courage; no balls necessary.
There is clarity, purity in Lawrence talking, He's always so excited speaking about science. Love this guy
Ironic given Krauss said nothing is something.
This was an awesome conversation. I really appreciated hearing the differing viewpoints expressed on the topics raised here.
Been subscribed to Sabine for a long time, she's great.
The greatest
A great discussion..been waiting for Sabine to be 'challenged' with her some of her approaches and i think she did well here..once again thank you for bring this video to the masses..
I love Sabine's work and I watch all her UA-cam videos. Thank you for this interview Lawrence :)
Found Sabine's youtube channel about 2 years ago, it's on my notifications list. Took about 6-8 months before I saw her music videos - When I hear Space and Casandra the songs stay in my head for hours. Any person with a PhD in physics, writes and performs great music, does most to all of the video production work, writes, and paints would have to be considered a genius. Compared equally with Brian May.
Her best song, in my opinion, is "Schrödinger's cat". She earns the Noble price in literature for that, if Bob Dylan earned it. If, in opposite to Lawrence Krauss, she finds out, that DarkMatter is a superfluid, she will be the first woman with two Noble prices. Good luck for her.
Nobel prizes
This was a fantastic interview. Love Sabine and Lawrence. Thank you for your enlightening conversations, talks, and work.
I cherish Sabine's independant thought. She is a breath of fresh air, long time subscriber.
I completely understand the reading of science fiction leading to wanting to study space and time and how things work, out there or under the oceans, and both are so awe inspiring..
Now that is called keeping your shit together, well done Sabine, Lawrence at 60 I've heard the reference for someone's age for the last 50 years, a little more perspective is all you get with time, you don't get to claim an advantage because of your age. Except being closer to the end. Great discussion and wonderful guest.
Peace
sometimes that's all the standard model apologists have.
That was great. Thank you both.
Great interview! Loved the balance between the personal and science.
Great to see SH interviewed by a fellow physicist. Keep up the great work LK!
My god the awkwardness was beautiful. 😂😂😂
Actually it was painful, lol
While Lawrence talked too much, he and Sabine responded to each other in interesting and thoughtful ways.
This is why I can’t stand his podcast. He always talks more than his guests. I listened for maybe 20 minutes before I got tired of hearing Lawrence talk about himself
Yeah, several times I wondered if he was nervous. (Perhaps because he disagreed with some of her views and felt uncomfortable saying this to her face in front of an audience?) I loved that she stayed totally calm and didn't at all get thrown off by whatever it was.
@@joshualaureano7062 it took me 12
Wasn't Sabine interviewing Lawrence?
@@richardgomes5420 Duh, of course. How did I miss that!
Love to you both. Thank you for all what you have both done.
I am a long time admirer of both Dr. Krauss and Dr. Hossenfleder. I wish them both much success.
@richardrosecky1574 How can you admire a man that has a long string of sexual misconduct allegations against him going back years and years? This guy is a creep and a scumbag.
Kraus spoke so much - for an interview with his interesting guest
I like the way SH, a theorist, keeps coming back to the importance of evidence or the lack of it.
We need some 20 year-old to look at it with fresh eyes for a new paradigm, because we are stuck.
All the low hanging fruits where picked. Could be that its simply not possible to progress, as uncovering the next "layer" in the law of nature would require experiments that cant be build by any reasonable measure.
Two absolutely brilliant scientists!! I love listening to you two!! one can learn so much about the universe just listening to you guys! thanks for the upload.
Wow! Two exceptionally brilliant minds in conversation! Neither of the two closed minded, nor so open minded their brain can fall out!
Love these two, let's hope it's a good conversation.
love you guys , both are truly amazing, inspiring and magnificent
Thank you Lawrence, for this very interesting interview!
What a great guest. Hossenfelder is always fun to iisten to. Thanks Lawrence!
Props Mr Krauss for getting Sabine on your channel. Thank you. Subscribed because of this.
I finally see you two together. What a blessing.
If I had not been as interested as I was in what Dr. Hossenfelder was saying, and impressed by her learned professionalism, I could not have endured the challenges of listening to Dr. Krauss's defensiveness. Not sure from where his apparent trigger-response to her originated, but I was enormously impressed by -- and grateful for -- her demonstration of zero response to it.
Krauss knows that she is a wannabe. He is too much of a gentleman to say it out loud. I am not. If you don't believe me... read her publications. There is no there there. ;-)
Great conversation.
80% Krauss blabbing 20% Sabine
My two favourite people in one podcast 😊😊😊
loved the tension of space within conversation here
and dog as arbiter
I was originally a physics student at university. There is a whole story of how that came about which I won't recount here. I was doing a little better in my math classes than my physics classes, while also working in the physics department. So, while considering changing from physics to math I asked one of my math professors, who I had a great rapport with, what does a theoretical mathematician do? His response was that they think up theorems and prove them. Well, that left me cold. What I knew nothing about was applied mathematics and statistics, which I have been involved with in my career over the past decades.
My father worked at an Army weapons lab. I was exposed to electrical engineering and advanced math at a young age. My father was very good at math. We lived close the the University of Maryland which had a very good physics department. Actually, they had many very good science departments. As a youngster, around 12 years old, my father would bring home lots of good stuff, including the "transistor" books from the major vendors. In them I saw integral signs and asked him what math I would have to take to understand them. He answered calculus. I was already in advanced math, and even took a summer course one year to get even further ahead. I had a great teacher in math in high school. He taught us more physics in our calculus class than I got in my physics class, which was the more advanced one.
Eventually I dropped out and got a job as a computer programmer. I would have been in my third year at university, but was already making what graduates were making. I eventually went into computer science and have never regretted it. There are very few places in physics, and I saw many graduate students and even professors go into the computer field.
Fuck you sir louis this is exactly what i didn't want to hear.
I KNOW THAT MY YEARS OF STUDYING MATH THEN PHYSICS WILL JUST LEAD TO UNEMPLOYMENT.
that's why i keep on lagging behind and not going to the proper end of it.
Jokes aside you are so on point...
There that dude i know on yt -louis seems like a french name maybe you are and know him- he's the largest science comunicator on yt in french, science etonnante (suprising science) and once he talked about how he cqme to be where he is.
Was so fucking depressing... dude went though the golden path to being a theoretical physisist, aced every part of it did an insane thesis -i swear it was chinese for me after 5 y of theoretical physics and a year of QM- on (mousse de spin not positive on translation), spin foam some obscure quantum notion in the context of studying quantum (REALLY UNSURE ON THAT TRANSLATION) loop gravity (gravite quantique a boucle) which is as you probably know a more obscure contender to string theory.
Long story short the numbers are out of my ass i don't remember the details but the general idea is there, but out of like 1000 physocs students graduating after their theoretical physics phd that year in this country -most i guess would be like him interested in say... reaserching theoretical physics? - there were litterally count on your 2 hands numbers of positions available as assistant professor which is basically the only way to do fundamental physics and reaserch for reaserchings sake.
He was in the top 10 or 20 something like that and still no position doing reaserching WHEN YOU'RE LITTERALLY PART OF THE TOP 1% OUT OF A POPULATION WHO IS ENTIRELY COMPOSED OF POST DOCS.
ITS insane.
He never got to do fundamental physics, ended up as a very successful dude, huge gift to science communication, on every topic, also has like non profit stuff going on, oh yeah he also is director of the R&D department of some big company who works on inventing novel materials so is still doing pretty theoretical physics or rather doing proper reaserching, just not on what he wants.
People will pay for you to make vanta black or weird granular stuff (btw he did a 5 min video on what sand is and i was blown away that shit is not right you should not be allowed to pick and choose properties from liquids and solids) or non newtonian fluids.
But who cares about bose einstein condensate or dark energy or transparent matter (refuse to call that dark makes no sense who tf named that, the trolls who tried to dismiss black holes by well calling them black holes? Ok i m angry now over and out no ending to this
Should continue to have highly technical conversation. fascinating to listen and learn
Take A Moment
Thank you both for your work 🙏
Stay Safe
Stay Free
Sabine, you are a world-class teacher!
Can't go wrong with Sabine. Great talk
Thank you for sharing this discussion. It felt like watching two friends discussing scientific ideas that they don't agree with the other on, but truly want to understand.
There is something profoundly irritating and certainly quite suggestive about seeing a debate between two people in which one of them sickeningly and repeatedly insists on declaring himself older and wiser than the other. Especially when the elder is a man and the younger one is an extremely clever woman, who in turn is much brighter, smarter, creative, unconventional, and well-articulated than her opponent. Anyway, thank you very much for the interesting conversation, valuable gift to open our minds. Have a great day. And kind greetings from Niterói, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
If you don’t get wiser with age, then you’ve stopped growing.
A serial sexual harasser, allegedly, on top.
And yet she seems quite patient and pleasant....It's funny he describes her as a "contrarian" when he is much moreso than her....projection I suppose. His questions strike me as shallow and self absorbed....what is his point? Her greater grasp of philosophical context is obvious...
Two giant intellects contend honestly and with mutual respect. A privilege to witness this!
It's funny how Lawrence will talk about something then pause expecting a response from her and he's met with silence. After repeating this several times he finally resorts to saying "what do you think" to get a response and move the conversation along.
She might be thinking. This is why I prefer an ongoing text conversation as opposed to speaking live in person. I like to think over something before responding and it's not practical in live conversation like this.
Sabine is so refreshing. She is a contrarian only in that she is contrary to the waffle that many talking head scientists talk about. I very much appreciate that she keeps these people on their toes, keeps them honest, and keeps them focused on the basic of the scientific method.
Well... this listener grasps enough to perceive Ms. Hossenfelder as a fellow realist. The dichotomy of personalities (subtext) was probably just as interesting as the more intricate positing. ;)
I love Sabine! I don't understand any of what either says half the time, but I knew they didn't see eye to eye. I gotta say, in this first round I was unconvinced until LK pulled the "when I was your age..." card. So round 1 to SH and I look forward to round 2, on her channel. I'm confident LK will reciprocate...
Well, I don't think it was as much not seeing eye to eye, as it was not seeing the details of what each others views are formed of. No one was stubborn or accusatory though. That's the cool thing about good scientists, they are open to new understanding and viewpoints. You can tell that some things are not easy to get across in just a few sentences, given all of the details and nuances, but as long as they try, it will be good and worthwhile conversation.
And he said, and it sounded like a jab, that he was writing books while she was just a baby.
He only reveals how far he must travel to catch up with her. 😂😅
great discussion
Wonderful guest! Challenging questions. This is what I love about Origins podcast. Lets keep challenging science and make sure we are on the right path to truth. Hope to see Dennett on here, Harris, Gervais again would be cool that one was maybe my favorite.
Sabine, by questioning current dogma, she is conducting science, not "challenging" science. Science progresses by finding new interpretations that are based on logic and empirical data.
a bit pedantic but she is challenging what is commonly accepted and that's good for science. I don't know what experiments she conducts herself but she's great for all the other field of science challenges she makes.@@granthurlburt4062
I really enjoyed this exchange
How many licks does it take to get to the inside of a physics theory?
The world may never know. 😆
I could listen to you two for hours!
I love that you both left with more to think about.
My mind is fried now.
Thanks y'all!
How many licks does it take to give Sabina my ways of ecstasy. She will never know.
Science matters! Love it, always will
Thanks. A great conversation between two amazing people
Great video
I'd dispute that Sabine is a contrarian. She holds strongly-supported, no-nonsense, clearly-argued positions which sometimes/often run contrary to prevailing views, eg most in/famously on String Theory, but there are plenty of others. But it's not arguing for the sake of arguing, eg she does think QM is weird, just not in the way it's often popularly portrayed: Bomb Experiment weird, Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser not weird at all, just exploited and misrepresented. What she says upsets some people, for instance those whose personal, social, and institutional capital investments might be at (severe risk), as well as the more (I would say ego-driven) heterodox "thinkers". For me Sabine is very much a _scientist_ going wherever the evidence takes her. That is surprisingly rare.
Exactly! she represents what science is about ..
That is the definition of a contrarian. A person who opposes or rejects popular opinion.
I view "contrarian" as slightly pejorative - arguing for the sake of arguing. Sabine is independently minded. When she opposes convention I would say she argues despite the popularity of the opposing view, not because of the popularity of the opposing view. YMMV.
@@guest_informant I have always viewed contrarian as non-pejorative
fast forward to 54:00 for the actual discussion involving different viewpoints
And skip like 50 commercials
thank you
The discussion of the value of beauty and elegance in theory i think is relevant. It’s Hawkins if I recall that argued that one shouldn’t be hung up on the elegance of a given theory if it isn’t congruent with observation,inversely however if a theory has too many fudge factors and had hock insertions - ie its inelegant than maybe it needs to be discarded. Beauty is a tool to guide our intuitions in any project of inquiry!
Sorry, for not seeing this upload for almost a year. You've always been one of my favorite scientists/science communicators' that simply have existed. I used to watch the programs that you and I'm sure a good size group at the University of Arizona, that you put multiple different topics from climate change, particle physics and even the nature of violence with Dr. Pinker. You were also in good company with Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris and you, your self going out and debating the religious people that really want to break into the science rooms saying they have the "Ultimate Truth" buy they don't, so you produced some good debates. I wish you hadn't disappeared or at least lied low, but I heard there was a rumor that I won't mention here that doesn't make sense to me, and I don't believe the first thing I hear. It is very good to see you back doing science content. Stay strong and I'm strongly looking forward toward your future content!
Downloaded.
Two of my favorite physicist. Love to listen to both.
Two of my favourite people!
i had to listen to the part that starts around the end of the first hour at least 4 or 5 times, because i wanted to understand the conflict that they've risen. listening to a debate is so much more interesting than listening to a one-sided interview, it reveals so much more about the guest than just questions and answers.
Sabine Hossenfelder is one of the few in the scientific community that is more interested in getting to the truth about our world, rather than being a contributor to the accepted ideology. Cosmology is in crisis because they have painted themselves into a corner marsh-pit of unprovable theories and imaginary forces in space. They all know this but no one, as yet, has been brave enough to say, “Our basic understanding of the universe is all wrong. We need to start over.” Sabine Hossenfelder has ventured as close as anyone to that flame, and IMO, this interview was a search for a take-down argument for her transgressions from the established line that must be towed. Lawrence Krauss did not find one, and Sabine Hossenfelder brilliantly avoided his many passive aggressive landmines. Bravo Sabina. LOVE your work! Keep searching for the truth.
i don't understand the details of what Sabine and Lawrence are debating but i have never had the opportunity to watch and listen as such competent (and maybe down to earth as well) people debate such cutting edge questions.... and so i find it strangely fascinating. maybe it's that when you get to these deep levels of understanding (at least as far as humans are concerned) it is hard to get too emotional because it gets in the way of all the nuance that must be accounted for... emotions get in the way of the great effort the intellect must make to grapple with and debate such difficult questions... emotions actually CAN'T enter into the discussion because it would stifle any small and very precious progress that could come from such discussions. it's also probably true that virtually all of what these two are discussing, they agree upon
Sabine demonstrating that if you do physics long enough, you will transmute into a wave function.
Enjoy the interview. Few comments: 1- Dr Lawrence, spending so much time on his extensive experience, that the guess end of keeping quiet. 2- For every answer the guess expressed, here you, Dr Lawrence, come again with so many more years, calling the guess young. 3- I do find this episode more of a discussion than an interview. 4- Very disturb by the facial expressions during answer give by the guess. Congratulations great scientific issues came from the presentation.
Ismar Cintora. Phoenix,AZ.
This is lawerence interviewing himself just as much as it is sabine
Sabine is doing it right. The ideas, the communication, the awareness of her public. Probably the realest public personality in the world of physics, at least that I have ever found.
Science fiction always was fascinating to me and wanted to know how staff works, how to fix them and how to build them. I have become chief engineer in big factory ... The closest thing to be chief engineer on a star ship from Stat Trek.... It was my dream for very long time.
I have admiration for Sabine she has a brilliant mind and she's iconoclastic
I love to listen to really smart women! Her direct approach to all the topics she covers is refreshing and entertaining.
Hope you’ve heard of physicist Lisa Randall … if not, now you have.
Very refreshing to watch both of these head strong scientists having to be socially polite - I mean this in the nicest way :-)
It's nice to hear both of you describe, in spite of appearing to have been hand-picked for your respective fields, how y'all didn't really know what you wanted to do, and that you've both tried your hand at many things. What would have happened had you discovered you had an extraordinary aptitude for music, Dr. Krauss? Would the hope for an income (or fear of not having one) still driven you toward physics? If you enjoy what you're doing and you do it well, it shouldn't matter what you do...except for the getting paid for it part.
This turns into a discussion about some very deep Physics arguments today between two very learned Physicists. I don't for a second really understand all of this, but I certainly understand how interesting such a discussion is. Not the sort of discussion we average folks ever witness. I love the discussion. As Aristotle said: Intelligent and informed discussion is the highest sport of mankind.
I think beauty and ugliness are only considerations and have no other basis in fact. In other words: beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Elon Musk: the thing is to be less wrong.
wow i almost closed the podcast when Sabine started talking and there was still the background musing playing. really glad it went away.
I prefer when conversations like this are not limited by "they won't understand this part of the discussion" because when people are genuinely challenging each other in a frank exchange, just as they would in a private, professional one, the dynamic of the two thinkers reveals their individual motivations and drives, and their essential philosophical approaches to solving problems.
For example, I had sometimes wondered if Dr Zabeena's philosophy was "shut up and calculate" for herself and students whom she mentors, and it's clear that she just wants to feel productive about the time and effort she devotes to problem solving, i.e., getting results, and that this was the motivation to write her book. She did NOT want to end up like many of the people she was critiquing, decades of time with little so show for it, and pushing for expensive experimental funding at the expense of potential progress elsewhere.
For better understanding it's good to read Sabine's book LOST IN MATH
Like both of them
I am stunned on how difficult it seems for Lawrence Krauss to grasp the pretty simple Idea on how naturalness is not a physical concept. Awesome discussion, but I am bit sad on how little a leading theoretical scientist can wiggle his mind.
that's what happens when you work on something for so long that it becomes too important to be worthless and you start making excuses un-consciously....
What you mean?
Its a heuristic when searching for new laws. And since it helped researchers find new things in the past, many will want to hang onto that heuristic. It should just be clear to them, that its not a law.
A meeting of two great minds, and I very much enjoyed e.g. the λcdm v MOND section. Unfortunately, Lawrence frequently felt the need to play the age-over-youth card, which I think is rather embarrassing for a scientist of his intellect. Really the only thing missing was Lawrence declaring 'Sabine, I am your father'.
OMG. Sabine as a drummer would be the coolest thing!
Amazing. .....
She's awesome when she gets passionate especially towards the end
Please get Rebecca Smethurst on the podcast!
I think his interviews are great. If the guests, Penrose, Hossenfelder and so on are not offended by his style - nor should you.
People being proxy offended on behalf of others are destroying science.
Lawrence is great at not interrupting, unlike some.
I've seen her music videos and she does seem have a talent for it
Not sure if this was covered, I’m listening while doing other things, but have you discussed what beauty is? There is a Classical idea of beauty, and a modern way. The Industrial Revolution induced new ways to regard beauty. Even within the Classical, Mannerism was seen as a pejorative description before it was embraced and included within the Classical canon.