If UK had complied with EU cladding regulations, Grenfell could not have happened. We are sick of lifesaving regulations being treated as a joke and just "red tape" when they are a matter of life and death. It IS the attitude of Tory Eurosceptics that the rules dont apply to them.
The CPS in 2028: "Due to the length of time that has passed, there is no longer a realistic prospect of conviction. The council has accepted a 100 pound penalty for a health and safety violation". The system is working exactly as designed.
@@joshuawilson7464it would not be considered murder by any stretch. It would be gross negligence manslaughter in the UK. Which does not have a time limit in England and Wales, but does have one in Northern Ireland and Scotland.
@GorgeDawes ok George I understand your questions Never is the simple answer But Andrew been doing the dirty work of consecutive government's for years him and his sort couldn't care less for the people of UK as long as they get to by the side of Power which is thier thrill
What is most disturbing s the number of of MPs who walked out Proir to the PM’s statement yesterday, If I could find out if my MP left, I’d write to them on the strongest of terms.
@@BrianPaterson-f3i Wrong question. Fires occur all the time. What allowed the fire to spread to that catastrophic extent, and then led to so many deaths? A whole series of things.
@@grahamepigney8565 indeed, but my point was that for such a serious issue a significant number of MPs couldn’t be bothered to hear what the PM had to say on the report. This tragedy affects everyone directly or indirectly. I have a work colleague for example who can’t either sell their flat or afford to stay there due to increase in insurance and maintenance fees
The reason why we repeatedly see these types of scandals is because the perpetrators essentially have impunity. Nothing will happen to them beyond a bit of public vilification, and they walk away with their accumulated spoils.
Not for Rock Fielding Mellen, his mother and father are aristocracy who own a large chunk of Gloucester. Those courts are for rioters who throw bricks....
In the last moments of this video you hit the nail on the head ‘The organisation must be protected’ whether it’s the BBC or public sector. I work in the public sector and a lot of senior managers have forgot who we serve.
Did they see the exodus from the benches before starmer made his speech,that is not a good sign that people will be brought to justice as most MP s have shown thry have no interest and thsts MP s from all parties,walking out like that was disgraceful.
If the CPS cannot use the report by a JUDGE, assisted by counsel, on the incompetence and criminality involved in this case to frame charges, it is seriously unfit for purpose.
First they have to find a jury capable of reading and understanding this mass of data. It may be better to cut to the chase, simplistically: 1. Origins a. Basic design faults b. Product misrepresentations c. Upgrade design faults d. Fire control deficiencies e. Failings in preemptive fire avoidance 2. Event a. Propagation b. Evacuation c. Controlling the fire 3. Consequences a. Deaths and life-changing injuries b. Provision for survivors c. Delays in managing other similar risks d. Provision for those affected thereby e. Legislative changes needed f. Other responsibilities
@@JelMain They don't need to charge everyone with everything all at once in one megatrial (aka lawyerfest). Go for the most culpable on the worst charges initially and meanwhile shake up the rest
@@alayneperrott9693 No, that approach prejudices later trials, certainly on appeal. It's already seen in the Southport Riots sentencing, that jail terms are escalating. It's also very ineffective use of court time. What may be possible within a Nuremberg structure is to determine primary culpability before the entire case concludes, in the kind of framework you're talking about, with considerable reliance on Precautionary Principle breaches, insofar as people did things they shouldn't have and didn't do things they should have. Activities like hiving off dangerous sectors like housing and wider asset types, to limit losses to the core Government function (the TMO as one of many Housing Department separations in the framework of UK Government Investments Ltd, which we'll hear more about in the Post Office Report) is clear evidence of premeditated problem avoidance and transfer, ie misfeasance in public office.
The issue with all of this deregulation or indeed not applying regulations, the cheapest quotations are often taken up which in my experience means companies cutting corners to get the work, which in turn either puts legitimate companies at a disadvantage, even putting some out of business or alternatively, they all go for the cheap unregulated route. It is like the wild west. Reminds me of bankers and the crash of 2007-8. Regulation is essential in all businesses.
Working in the industry as a block and estate manager, it’s honestly unthinkable that the CEO’s of the companies directly involved have not been remanded after this phase of the enquiry!
Businessmen don't go to jail for corporate manslaughter. Their companies may or may not go down, but the directors have enough warning to shift assets and pass on the risk.
Delays in prosecution are in part caused by the immunity granted by testifying to the Inquiry. That was deemed necessary in order to encourage candor and to get to the truth. There is a general rule against self-incrimination, which if applied, may have exposed witnesses (in this case 'did expose') many. The Prosecution Service are left with the unenviable task of separating out the evidence and then testing for the 'likelihood of securing a conviction' test common across criminal cases. This is frustrating and the 'justice denied' point is well taken. But we are where we are. One additional point - the plans to retain the tower and/or the site as a memorial at a high and significant cost for a 'lifetime'. I wonder if the local community would not rather the money spent on area wide regeneration, or repairs and remediation across the whole of the Borough. That surely would be more impactful and respectful of all those who lost their lives, and the many whose lives are forever scarred by the tragedy.
Posh way of saying the people that played a role in the killing of 72 people where treated with a greater level of care given to those that lost everything including their life and had far less in material wealth and social stature, this is England!
@@johntaylor7965 Learn how the system works my friend, so you can be more effective in fighting it. I have enough connection with Grenfell and the area to speak with some knowledge. I am not some privileged Tory, but that should not matter. It is about lives and the systems around protecting lives that counts. I only ask that you think about how things work. Peace!
Owners of construction companies aren’t poor. Any delays to prosecutions will give them ample opportunity to relocate and become impossible to find/extradite.
This happened because of an absence of political competence, properly monitoring whether building regulations were being adhered too, and political snobbery, Westminster Council thinking and treating Grenfell residents as worthless nobody's. As Andrew Marr's says those responsible must be prosecuted as soon as possible.
The corporates refused to participate in the Enquiry UNLESS they were granted privilege of NOT answering anything that would incriminate them. So there's no actionable testimony here for the police or courts, except that from individuals, architects etc. 😮Plod will start from scratch, and corporates are well protected by lawyers already well prepared. Remember also that the UK police is also a corporation.😮
Deluded. Andrew. You do know what country you are in, right? The country of Boris Johnson and Liz Truss. Don’t hold your breath for a SINGLE conviction.
Don't trust Andrew Marr. He works for the Daily Mail, a supporter of this anti-eu, anti-regulation, anti-safety position, an enabler of Tory abuse. If he had any morals he would have nothing to do with them.
Prosecutions have to be properly investigated and secure. Rushing into court will only increase the chances of people getting away with murder due to procedural/ technical failings. BTW, MPs have NO say in whether there are prosecutions or .whether any prosecutions are successful, this part of the essential seperation of powers under the UK constitution.
I want to see Eric Pickles prosecuted for perjury at the inquiry. The deregulation mania he oversaw as the minister cannot be prosecuted due to crown immunity, but that does not cover him for lying to the inquiry after he left the government😊
Only thing I don't understand here is why the inquiry and CPS couldn't work in conjunction and share data. The 18 months for the CPS to build a solid case makes sense to me. Build a solid case and nail the guilty to the wall. If both could work in conjunction from the beginning, this wouldn't be such a needlessly long process.
The time to have build a 'solid case' was 7 years ago. When people were alive, available, the evidence was fresh, computers and phones and documents and memories weren't destroyed and faded. This is all by design. The establishment never intended any of their own, or the companies that pay them off, to face prosecution.
The CPS and police were very able and acted rapidly to identify, arrest, prosecute and sentence people involved in the riots associated with the Southport murders. However, when perpetrators and evidence is clearly available it will take more than 18 months per the CPS. This can only mean that the CPS do not want to do this and will ignore all current evidence and will drag it's heels reluctantly to pursue these obvious crimes and criminals. Have the CPS been given their instructions from their previous boss?
A Broken & outdated system of Government & Economics. Both are Dinosaurs trying to live in the Space Age. We need to change both to new systems instead of using system thousands of years old that the refine when need to maintain the power & wealth a few get from them.
Also worth remembering that Andrew Marr was a vociferous cheerleader for cuts and austerity. A week never went past without him excitedly asking some politician how they were going to cut the deficit and debt
I agree, prosecutions must quickly follow the publication of the report. It should only take a matter of a few months to build the criminal case for those obviously liable. But don’t forget that, like so many government departments, the CPP has had to endure cuts and reductions in staff numbers during the Tories’ period in government. The DPP will want to make absolutely sure the case against individuals is as watertight as possible.
the coverings on grenfell tower was put up for cosmetic reasons to make them look better for the wealthy residents of kensington and chelsea, safety wasnt considered, a bit like covering the cracks on a house that you are selling with wallpaper
But this is not just lives on hold and people living in hazardous conditions this is a labour force that is not as mobile even as it was before. Coupled with the costs of monitoring the environments, I'll say they didn't consider that when "regulation = bad"?
Of course the architects of this tragedy, Cameron and Osborne and their ideology, will not only get away with it, but will prosper greatly. Cameron should be sent to prison.
Did the original covering as specified have the correct classifications to meet the then current Part B as stated in the manufacturer’s literature? How much did Studio E know about the pre-existing faults in the building regarding fire safety? When novated the architect has no power to overrule decisions taken by either contractor or client against the architect’s advice. They can disagree with, but not change decisions. The last sentence is EXACTLY why D&B is popular with those wanting as much profit as possible. Don’t building contracts allow contractors to substitute any material with another PROVIDED they submit the documentary evidence of equivalence? The real problem in the UK that the Grenfell Inquiry completely missed is the fact that here (unlike in most of the developed world) anyone can design and/or build without any qualifications. In fact the new Building Safety Act allows the un(der)qualified to self-certify as competent! Experience is not as vital as people think, if you are not allowed to do something until you’ve done it is tautological nonsense!
Andrew says it is probably down to human nature - which is like a flow of water, which, unless it is controlled or regulated, will always find the quickest, easiest route.
"2010 onwards . . ." A significant date - politically? 72 avoidable deaths; - high risk and profiteering sharp practice supplanting the hitherto priority of safety. Responsibility lies somewhere - and someone knows where it lies. Follow the money - follow the ethos. It leads back to Thatcher. "There's no such thing as society" - who needs business accountability?
Well said. I agree with the three main points. I would observe that it seemed brown black people were being dismissed then in effect killed; directly or indirect discrimination?
The report doesn't identify the person(s) who made the decision to refurbish a high rise single escape stair building. That decision was the wrong one which allowed all the other mistakes to follow. Whoever gave the green light on this should be more easily identifiable and more easily prosecuted. Result.
You guys should have a minister responsible for following through on the PO scandal restitution and compensation plus goosing the police and crown prosecutor to ensure the needed prosecutions take place and not just a few lower level minions thrown under the bus bus while the real guilty party’s at the top walk way
Regulations can not fix the underlying problem. Regulations no matter how well intended always have unintended consequences on others daily life. It is these unintended consequences that inevitable builds up a resistance and total apathy towards regulations. Hence why support is given to any who promise there removal. All the while we judge and measure success in our society by profit made then there will always be dreadful incidents. The past is littered with them and so will the future be.
Lessons will be leant. regulation has been alter in concordance with the strategies suggested in the report in due time. Same as every other review, failures were made and something was learnt but nothing ever truly happens. If the courts don’t work, maybe we need to start taking justice into our own hands.
I disagree that it's human nature; it's really a cultural quirk. Despite bing a first world country there is something cheap about the UK and cutting corners seen as unimportant often lead to a mess. The concrete scandal is another one. Universalising it takes away the flavour that is very very British.
The title of this podcast is interesting. Why 'must'? What is the consequence of not prosecuting the accused? What happened to innocent until proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt?
@@shauntempley9757 What or who will standing in the dock: an institution or persons? People will be standing in the dock. Even if this was an about an institution then as point of law the burden of proof would be on the Crown Prosecution Service not the institution.
@@jonathandnicholson That is a key issue for all Westminster governments, the UK especially. Before Parliament took over, the King used to hold the institutions to account and punish them. Since the time of King James 1, that is no longer the case, but that occurred because he overstepped. Now, the UK is facing a moment in history where Parliament is behaving as King James 1 did before he got beheaded. Grenfell Tower does not show a new culture. It shows that the same culture behind Grenfell is no different than the one that caused Aberfan. The thing is, every nation founded by the English has the exact same issue with those in power, even here in NZ. The difference is, that in NZ, our Grenfell will be in the form of an outdated ferry going down in a storm with huge loss of life, and you can literally track the entire process of that disaster from the October election.
@@shauntempley9757 Huh? I believe you are inaccurate about the king holding institutions to account. I do not believe the king ever held institutions to account. Why? A person or people are fault rather than institutions. Where does that principle come from? God. Genesis Three. Exodus 23. Leviticus 19. 1 Samuel 16. Ezekiel 18. John Three. If someone did engage in collective punishment that would be bad, unjust and wrong. Charles I was illegally and immorally executed. I believe some strange claims, but I do not believe James I was beheaded. Possibly, abstractly, I am incorrect in my belief in the execution of Charles I (not James I), but I do not believe so. I am not sure a ferry sank because of an election or the result of the election other than indirectly. I do not believe intentionally, either, so Luke 23:34 (that would not apply if the act intentionally caused a ferry to sink). Condolences for the bereaved. Is someone morally culpable of negligent manslaughter? Yes. Exodus 21. God also forgives those who truly repent. Is a person legally culpable in the United Kingdom ... for negligent manslaughter. Yes, but with proof beyond a reasonable doubt of both the guilty act and the guilty mind required for the crime to have happened. The guilty mind also has to have existed at the time the crime(s) were perpetrated. The investigation taking place may not be an investigation of fact, but an investigation about what the charge(s) should be. Did you think of that? All criminal defendants are innocent until proven guilty even, as I stated repeatedly at the time, if you allegedly stab three children to death. Would you prefer lynch mobs to be judge, jurors and executioner or would rather have the civil and religious authorities which are ordained by God to act on His behalf until final judgement?
The evidence has to be concrete. Anything less and they'll get away with it. Let the CPS do their job properly. No quick botches to keep people like you happy.
Starlin will renege on this like nearly every other promise he and his party have made to the people who voted for them. Except of course in ensuring there is sufficient money to pay trade union extortion.
You know who didn’t listen? All the journalists and MPs and councillors when the residents were raising issues years before.
If UK had complied with EU cladding regulations, Grenfell could not have happened. We are sick of lifesaving regulations being treated as a joke and just "red tape" when they are a matter of life and death. It IS the attitude of Tory Eurosceptics that the rules dont apply to them.
@@jonaen24 the issues are on both sides the Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order 2006 was brought in by Labour, a colassal mistake
The CPS in 2028: "Due to the length of time that has passed, there is no longer a realistic prospect of conviction. The council has accepted a 100 pound penalty for a health and safety violation". The system is working exactly as designed.
There's no statute of limitations on murder
But yeah that'll probably happen
@@joshuawilson7464it would not be considered murder by any stretch. It would be gross negligence manslaughter in the UK. Which does not have a time limit in England and Wales, but does have one in Northern Ireland and Scotland.
Marr is right. No more delays. Prison sentences for all TODAY
Matt doesn't give a damm about anyone he is as culpable in the deaths as anyone 😢
Erm, when was he a government minister, Fire Officer or seller of dodgy insulation products?
@GorgeDawes ok George I understand your questions Never is the simple answer But Andrew been doing the dirty work of consecutive government's for years him and his sort couldn't care less for the people of UK as long as they get to by the side of Power which is thier thrill
What happened to innocent until proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt?
@@jonathandnicholson Not interested guilty as charged
What is most disturbing s the number of of MPs who walked out Proir to the PM’s statement yesterday, If I could find out if my MP left, I’d write to them on the strongest of terms.
MPs have NO influence on whether there will be criminal or even civil cases, that is as it should be.
@@grahamepigney8565 Why do MPs care were their cleaners and Uber drivers live. One Labour MP Jas Anwar has been found to be a slum landlord.
What started the fire
@@BrianPaterson-f3i Wrong question. Fires occur all the time. What allowed the fire to spread to that catastrophic extent, and then led to so many deaths? A whole series of things.
@@grahamepigney8565 indeed, but my point was that for such a serious issue a significant number of MPs couldn’t be bothered to hear what the PM had to say on the report. This tragedy affects everyone directly or indirectly. I have a work colleague for example who can’t either sell their flat or afford to stay there due to increase in insurance and maintenance fees
The reason why we repeatedly see these types of scandals is because the perpetrators essentially have impunity. Nothing will happen to them beyond a bit of public vilification, and they walk away with their accumulated spoils.
Spot on none of these people will face justice, same as the post office scandal.
No 24 hour courts then?
Not for Rock Fielding Mellen, his mother and father are aristocracy who own a large chunk of Gloucester. Those courts are for rioters who throw bricks....
lol, that’s only for the little people
7 years, how on earth did it take 7 years ,240 million quid, what a farce
Hope they include all the politicians that took the envelope or turned a blind eye!
In the last moments of this video you hit the nail on the head ‘The organisation must be protected’ whether it’s the BBC or public sector. I work in the public sector and a lot of senior managers have forgot who we serve.
Did they see the exodus from the benches before starmer made his speech,that is not a good sign that people will be brought to justice as most MP s have shown thry have no interest and thsts MP s from all parties,walking out like that was disgraceful.
If the CPS cannot use the report by a JUDGE, assisted by counsel, on the incompetence and criminality involved in this case to frame charges, it is seriously unfit for purpose.
First they have to find a jury capable of reading and understanding this mass of data. It may be better to cut to the chase, simplistically:
1. Origins
a. Basic design faults
b. Product misrepresentations
c. Upgrade design faults
d. Fire control deficiencies
e. Failings in preemptive fire avoidance
2. Event
a. Propagation
b. Evacuation
c. Controlling the fire
3. Consequences
a. Deaths and life-changing injuries
b. Provision for survivors
c. Delays in managing other similar risks
d. Provision for those affected thereby
e. Legislative changes needed
f. Other responsibilities
@@JelMain They don't need to charge everyone with everything all at once in one megatrial (aka lawyerfest). Go for the most culpable on the worst charges initially and meanwhile shake up the rest
@@alayneperrott9693 No, that approach prejudices later trials, certainly on appeal. It's already seen in the Southport Riots sentencing, that jail terms are escalating. It's also very ineffective use of court time.
What may be possible within a Nuremberg structure is to determine primary culpability before the entire case concludes, in the kind of framework you're talking about, with considerable reliance on Precautionary Principle breaches, insofar as people did things they shouldn't have and didn't do things they should have. Activities like hiving off dangerous sectors like housing and wider asset types, to limit losses to the core Government function (the TMO as one of many Housing Department separations in the framework of UK Government Investments Ltd, which we'll hear more about in the Post Office Report) is clear evidence of premeditated problem avoidance and transfer, ie misfeasance in public office.
The issue with all of this deregulation or indeed not applying regulations, the cheapest quotations are often taken up which in my experience means companies cutting corners to get the work, which in turn either puts legitimate companies at a disadvantage, even putting some out of business or alternatively, they all go for the cheap unregulated route. It is like the wild west. Reminds me of bankers and the crash of 2007-8. Regulation is essential in all businesses.
Working in the industry as a block and estate manager, it’s honestly unthinkable that the CEO’s of the companies directly involved have not been remanded after this phase of the enquiry!
Businessmen don't go to jail for corporate manslaughter. Their companies may or may not go down, but the directors have enough warning to shift assets and pass on the risk.
Disgusting the number of MPs who left the Chamber
And still afterwards they wouldn't house them disgusting what contempt
If you look at every disaster that ever happened in this country, how many people actually ended up in prison? None ,and this will be no different
Delays in prosecution are in part caused by the immunity granted by testifying to the Inquiry. That was deemed necessary in order to encourage candor and to get to the truth. There is a general rule against self-incrimination, which if applied, may have exposed witnesses (in this case 'did expose') many. The Prosecution Service are left with the unenviable task of separating out the evidence and then testing for the 'likelihood of securing a conviction' test common across criminal cases. This is frustrating and the 'justice denied' point is well taken. But we are where we are. One additional point - the plans to retain the tower and/or the site as a memorial at a high and significant cost for a 'lifetime'. I wonder if the local community would not rather the money spent on area wide regeneration, or repairs and remediation across the whole of the Borough. That surely would be more impactful and respectful of all those who lost their lives, and the many whose lives are forever scarred by the tragedy.
Spoken like a true tory.
@@yetidodger6650 Thank you for your kind attention.
Posh way of saying the people that played a role in the killing of 72 people where treated with a greater level of care given to those that lost everything including their life and had far less in material wealth and social stature, this is England!
@@johntaylor7965 Learn how the system works my friend, so you can be more effective in fighting it. I have enough connection with Grenfell and the area to speak with some knowledge. I am not some privileged Tory, but that should not matter. It is about lives and the systems around protecting lives that counts. I only ask that you think about how things work. Peace!
Owners of construction companies aren’t poor. Any delays to prosecutions will give them ample opportunity to relocate and become impossible to find/extradite.
UK is not broke. Tax hoarded wealth - than all basic problems can be solved!
This happened because of an absence of political competence, properly monitoring whether building regulations were being adhered too, and political snobbery, Westminster Council thinking and treating Grenfell residents as worthless nobody's. As Andrew Marr's says those responsible must be prosecuted as soon as possible.
But less than a month if it wasn't such a corrupt cover-up?! Dispicable rbkc for you?!
Like the post office scandal, probably never get the culprit's.
Do not forget Jacob Rees Mogg's comments about the occupants listening to the Fire Authority advice !
The corporates refused to participate in the Enquiry UNLESS they were granted privilege of NOT answering anything that would incriminate them. So there's no actionable testimony here for the police or courts, except that from individuals, architects etc. 😮Plod will start from scratch, and corporates are well protected by lawyers already well prepared. Remember also that the UK police is also a corporation.😮
Deluded. Andrew. You do know what country you are in, right? The country of Boris Johnson and Liz Truss. Don’t hold your breath for a SINGLE conviction.
Exactly!!!! This is England we know where we are, two tier justice inbound.
Don't trust Andrew Marr. He works for the Daily Mail, a supporter of this anti-eu, anti-regulation, anti-safety position, an enabler of Tory abuse. If he had any morals he would have nothing to do with them.
Prosecutions have to be properly investigated and secure.
Rushing into court will only increase the chances of people getting away with murder due to procedural/ technical failings.
BTW, MPs have NO say in whether there are prosecutions or .whether any prosecutions are successful, this part of the essential seperation of powers under the UK constitution.
Another hot potato that politicians have tried to avoid..
I want to see Eric Pickles prosecuted for perjury at the inquiry. The deregulation mania he oversaw as the minister cannot be prosecuted due to crown immunity, but that does not cover him for lying to the inquiry after he left the government😊
Only thing I don't understand here is why the inquiry and CPS couldn't work in conjunction and share data. The 18 months for the CPS to build a solid case makes sense to me. Build a solid case and nail the guilty to the wall. If both could work in conjunction from the beginning, this wouldn't be such a needlessly long process.
The time to have build a 'solid case' was 7 years ago. When people were alive, available, the evidence was fresh, computers and phones and documents and memories weren't destroyed and faded. This is all by design. The establishment never intended any of their own, or the companies that pay them off, to face prosecution.
The CPS and police were very able and acted rapidly to identify, arrest, prosecute and sentence people involved in the riots associated with the Southport murders. However, when perpetrators and evidence is clearly available it will take more than 18 months per the CPS. This can only mean that the CPS do not want to do this and will ignore all current evidence and will drag it's heels reluctantly to pursue these obvious crimes and criminals. Have the CPS been given their instructions from their previous boss?
Why does this keep happening? That is the big question that we must answer.
A Broken & outdated system of Government & Economics. Both are Dinosaurs trying to live in the Space Age. We need to change both to new systems instead of using system thousands of years old that the refine when need to maintain the power & wealth a few get from them.
Of course you should wait for the enquiry to complete. Yes, there should be prosecutions, but not before the facts have been ascertained.
Agree, and I hope that the previous Gvmt Ministers are not immune from prosecution!
These People have no accountability. Institutional incompetence
Also worth remembering that Andrew Marr was a vociferous cheerleader for cuts and austerity. A week never went past without him excitedly asking some politician how they were going to cut the deficit and debt
I agree, prosecutions must quickly follow the publication of the report. It should only take a matter of a few months to build the criminal case for those obviously liable. But don’t forget that, like so many government departments, the CPP has had to endure cuts and reductions in staff numbers during the Tories’ period in government. The DPP will want to make absolutely sure the case against individuals is as watertight as possible.
Everyone should watch the James Nesbit fronted series 'Disasters That Changed Britain'
*"I will do away with this health and safety culture, once and for all-"* David Cameron
Failing which, start naming names, so the public can express their opinion directly.
If we know what happened how do we not know if deregulation lead to the deaths?
Chesterton Fence……how interesting!
the coverings on grenfell tower was put up for cosmetic reasons to make them look better for the wealthy residents of kensington and chelsea, safety wasnt considered, a bit like covering the cracks on a house that you are selling with wallpaper
But this is not just lives on hold and people living in hazardous conditions this is a labour force that is not as mobile even as it was before. Coupled with the costs of monitoring the environments, I'll say they didn't consider that when "regulation = bad"?
Of course the architects of this tragedy, Cameron and Osborne and their ideology, will not only get away with it, but will prosper greatly. Cameron should be sent to prison.
Did the original covering as specified have the correct classifications to meet the then current Part B as stated in the manufacturer’s literature? How much did Studio E know about the pre-existing faults in the building regarding fire safety? When novated the architect has no power to overrule decisions taken by either contractor or client against the architect’s advice. They can disagree with, but not change decisions. The last sentence is EXACTLY why D&B is popular with those wanting as much profit as possible.
Don’t building contracts allow contractors to substitute any material with another PROVIDED they submit the documentary evidence of equivalence?
The real problem in the UK that the Grenfell Inquiry completely missed is the fact that here (unlike in most of the developed world) anyone can design and/or build without any qualifications. In fact the new Building Safety Act allows the un(der)qualified to self-certify as competent!
Experience is not as vital as people think, if you are not allowed to do something until you’ve done it is tautological nonsense!
Why is this always happening coz $$ money corruption money that is always the answer ALWAYS
Andrew says it is probably down to human nature - which is like a flow of water, which, unless it is controlled or regulated, will always find the quickest, easiest route.
I both disagree with that appraisal of human nature and believe that the profit/bonus motive is behind it.
"2010 onwards . . ." A significant date - politically? 72 avoidable deaths; - high risk and profiteering sharp practice supplanting the hitherto priority of safety. Responsibility lies somewhere - and someone knows where it lies. Follow the money - follow the ethos. It leads back to Thatcher. "There's no such thing as society" - who needs business accountability?
Don't be silly, the politicians are not going to punish themselves for incompetence.
Well said. I agree with the three main points. I would observe that it seemed brown black people were being dismissed then in effect killed; directly or indirect discrimination?
The report doesn't identify the person(s) who made the decision to refurbish a high rise single escape stair building. That decision was the wrong one which allowed all the other mistakes to follow. Whoever gave the green light on this should be more easily identifiable and more easily prosecuted. Result.
Can someone confirm whether those that sub let are being prosecuted.
You guys should have a minister responsible for following through on the PO scandal restitution and compensation plus goosing the police and crown prosecutor to ensure the needed prosecutions take place and not just a few lower level minions thrown under the bus bus while the real guilty party’s at the top walk way
Assessinations.
Regulations can not fix the underlying problem. Regulations no matter how well intended always have unintended consequences on others daily life. It is these unintended consequences that inevitable builds up a resistance and total apathy towards regulations. Hence why support is given to any who promise there removal. All the while we judge and measure success in our society by profit made then there will always be dreadful incidents. The past is littered with them and so will the future be.
The preview took up 6% of the video
Lessons will be leant. regulation has been alter in concordance with the strategies suggested in the report in due time. Same as every other review, failures were made and something was learnt but nothing ever truly happens. If the courts don’t work, maybe we need to start taking justice into our own hands.
It will never happen.a lot of them belong to f .m .
I disagree that it's human nature; it's really a cultural quirk. Despite bing a first world country there is something cheap about the UK and cutting corners seen as unimportant often lead to a mess. The concrete scandal is another one. Universalising it takes away the flavour that is very very British.
The title of this podcast is interesting. Why 'must'? What is the consequence of not prosecuting the accused? What happened to innocent until proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt?
That applies to people.
Not to institutions, companies, or titles of authority.
@@shauntempley9757 What or who will standing in the dock: an institution or persons? People will be standing in the dock. Even if this was an about an institution then as point of law the burden of proof would be on the Crown Prosecution Service not the institution.
@@jonathandnicholson That is a key issue for all Westminster governments, the UK especially.
Before Parliament took over, the King used to hold the institutions to account and punish them. Since the time of King James 1, that is no longer the case, but that occurred because he overstepped.
Now, the UK is facing a moment in history where Parliament is behaving as King James 1 did before he got beheaded. Grenfell Tower does not show a new culture.
It shows that the same culture behind Grenfell is no different than the one that caused Aberfan. The thing is, every nation founded by the English has the exact same issue with those in power, even here in NZ.
The difference is, that in NZ, our Grenfell will be in the form of an outdated ferry going down in a storm with huge loss of life, and you can literally track the entire process of that disaster from the October election.
@@shauntempley9757 Huh?
I believe you are inaccurate about the king holding institutions to account. I do not believe the king ever held institutions to account. Why? A person or people are fault rather than institutions. Where does that principle come from? God. Genesis Three. Exodus 23. Leviticus 19. 1 Samuel 16. Ezekiel 18. John Three. If someone did engage in collective punishment that would be bad, unjust and wrong. Charles I was illegally and immorally executed. I believe some strange claims, but I do not believe James I was beheaded. Possibly, abstractly, I am incorrect in my belief in the execution of Charles I (not James I), but I do not believe so.
I am not sure a ferry sank because of an election or the result of the election other than indirectly. I do not believe intentionally, either, so Luke 23:34 (that would not apply if the act intentionally caused a ferry to sink). Condolences for the bereaved.
Is someone morally culpable of negligent manslaughter? Yes. Exodus 21. God also forgives those who truly repent. Is a person legally culpable in the United Kingdom ... for negligent manslaughter. Yes, but with proof beyond a reasonable doubt of both the guilty act and the guilty mind required for the crime to have happened. The guilty mind also has to have existed at the time the crime(s) were perpetrated. The investigation taking place may not be an investigation of fact, but an investigation about what the charge(s) should be. Did you think of that?
All criminal defendants are innocent until proven guilty even, as I stated repeatedly at the time, if you allegedly stab three children to death. Would you prefer lynch mobs to be judge, jurors and executioner or would rather have the civil and religious authorities which are ordained by God to act on His behalf until final judgement?
,, Camberwell there was a fire free dead they said they'd caught fire escapes never happened it still dangerous and it's a time bomb
The evidence has to be concrete. Anything less and they'll get away with it. Let the CPS do their job properly. No quick botches to keep people like you happy.
spoken like a true tory.
Martin Moore nick
Starlin will renege on this like nearly every other promise he and his party have made to the people who voted for them. Except of course in ensuring there is sufficient money to pay trade union extortion.
Agreed . And meanwhile the likes of michelle mone remain free.
First