Rome (HBO) - Pompey Magnus Tells Vorenus How He Is Defeated
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- Опубліковано 23 кві 2021
- This is how the republic died! Magnus Pompey tells Vorenus how he is defeated at the battle of Pharsalus.
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"It didn't seem possible to lose. That's always a bad sign."
Just like the battle of Gaugamela.
@EPHRAIM ABNER tf are u smoking?
Just like the Ukraine, now. History repeating.
@JUDAH ABNER Still in hell, you sinner 😈
Next level words right there… “You there!… May you live for ever…”
"It didn't seem possible to lose. That's always a bad sign." What a GREAT line. Kudos to the writer on that one.
The way he delivers it too, with that warm smile - almost like a father joking with his son. Really makes my heart break for the guy.
@@louthegiantcookieThe recognition of his hubris is delivered fantastically.
Love how accurately they describe the Battle of Pharsalus. Caesar hid a line of spearmen behind his army and used his weaker cavalry to bait Pompey’s superior force to crash directly into them which completely routed them. Then the hidden line and Caesar’s cavalry counter charged and did exactly as Pompey described here.
The show obviously took a lot of liberties with the story for the sake of television but there are a lot of snippets like this that show the writers knew the history well.
Best of all is that they weren't even spearmen, but infantry armed with their usual pila. They must have been ordered not to throw them all, since Caesar's cavalry had no way of impeding Pompei's.
It's one of my favourite accounts because, besides being insane for a cavalry charge to be repulsed by infantry, it's also a clear-cut counter to the oft repeated legend that pila were magical shield-ruining weapons, where the pilum would bend and snap and somehow render shields useless. They were spears intended for throwing, but spears all the same; there's no way they could have fought off cavalry with a flimsy weapon.
Actually the pila is one weapon that most history channels get wrong. The shield aspect is only a small part of it. When you read the journals it clearly states that pila main purpose is to disrupt enemy formations period. Roman rely on disciplined lines and combat lines to chew through enemy ranks. Thus a disorganized enemy line is something they actively try to create
Pompey should not have committed the cavalry so soon. He has the clear upper hand advantage in terms of legionary quantity. Yes quality wise he was inferior by much, however he had the upper hand in waiting for the right moment to strike, without hurrying for a quick victory.
Instead of letting loose the cavalry to impetuously charge at the heavily reinforced right flank of Caesar's army, he should also have feinted and retreated and wait till the maniples collide so that the armies are locked.
Once that has occured, he needed to use his cavalry to do hit and run on the rear of the advanced maniples of Caesar's legions. For Caesar held back his reserve cavalry to spring that surprise and to bait the Pompeian cavalry to hit his reserve line.
By using a two part force of screening cavalry and a striking cavalry in tandem to the rear of the legios of Caesar's vanguard, he would have won the battle without even engaging Caesar's cavalry.
That would have saved the world from 2000 years of imperialism and kings and would have developed republican ideals for the next 2000 years instead, producing an even more advanced civilization that we could have imagined today.
@@ConstantineJoseph yes, the Roman civilization would had indeed be a massive cultural, political, and historical powerhouse orders of magnitude greater than the Empire, which was pretty much the end of Rome. However, the Gracchi brothers started the changes that, together with the Legios moving their loyalty from the Senate and People of Rome, the Roman state, to their generals, after Marius’s reforms, pretty much destroyed any chance of saving the Republic, sadly.
Personally, I believe Rome reached its peak during the Second Punic War, after Cannae, recovering from an impossible, that is Rome in my mind, in all its might and will power.
@@ConstantineJoseph lol, I might have argued and agreed to the battle tactics but the last paragraph about kings and republics is the most ignorant thing anyone could possibly say
"He did"
I think that's what I love most about this scene.
Pompey, throughout his tenure in Rome, is constantly looking for someone to reminisce and talk battles with.
To impart his wisdom to those who come after, and share in his passion.
Vorenus is the first and only person to indulge him, and in that moment, he's just happy to discuss what he loves, even as he realizes it is the moment of his downfall.
Excellent observation! It makes me think of when he was courting Octavia with the plan to make her his new wife and they're at that party and Pompey is recounting one of his most famous battles blow-by-blow until he realized Octavia is starting to nod off.
If I recall correctly, I'm pretty sure it was shortly after that when he decided to marry Cornelia instead.
If Pompey would withstand the intense pressure of Roman politics and not succumb to the opponents of Caesar, these two, the remnants of the triumvirate would actually go on to conquer Germania and Parthia and perhaps even Scythia. They would have competed with Alexander the Great in terms of expansion and success.
Alas it was not to be.
@@ConstantineJoseph And you could have argued that had Pompey not been murdered, it could also have happened the way you describe.
Seventeen years after the series ended, I still think of this scene. "How did Pompey Magnus come to this road...."
Imagine how Vorenus felt being a Catonian that believes to the sanctity of the Roman republic hearing Pompei Magnus as the defender of it saying the words of this is how he's defeated as well the death of the republic.
I get your point about Vorenus’s perspective but it was Pompey (more accurately the Senate but he was now their leader) that caused the death of the republic.
And it was a fucking lie. Pompey played the same game, Caesar was just better at it.
Well if you read into the politics of it. Yes there were are hard-core group of republicans that was very much opposed to Caesar, they were idealist and believed in the old Roman ways. However they are only a small contingent of the opposition to Caesar. They failed to realize that senate has become too corrupt and that things were going downhill fast even if Caesar wasn't the boogeyman
The thing is, Pompey was no better than Caesar when it came to defending the republic. Both of them were using it. It was only Cicero who was trying to maintain things.
@@michaeldiekmann6494 Cicero understood that thats why he was willing to let Caesar keep a province with a legion. Cato hated Caesar so much he was willing to force armed conflict. But they all grew up in the Republic that slaughtered their Italian allies and then slaughtered each other over a petty beef between Marius and Sulla. It doesn't justify their choices but when you see poltical violence made normal and yield better results than diplomacy, its hard to ignore that.
He conquered the East. More kingdoms have fallen in his hand than by any other in the history of Rome. When he returend to Rome after his glorious conquest, he voyaged through Mediterrenean, the very sea he tamed from pirates, like a Alexander the Great of old. Thus, Romans gave hime the name, just like Alexander, Magnus(the great).
Yet, after his defeat...
Pompey wasnt that great of a commander. He took his glory from other roman commanders that did the heavy fighting in the servile war (spain) and 3rd mithradic war (east). He even took the credit of crushing spartacus from crassus.
@@crackshack2 Pompey was good, he was one of the best generals the Republic ever produced, easily in the top 20 across all of Roman history. The problem is he lived in the age of great Roman generals.
Early in his career he had to be compared with men like Marius, Sulla and Setorius; and in this twilight he had to deal with Caesar. Throw Scipio Africanius in there as number 1 and you have next five best generals of the Republican period.
He Single handly doubled the Roman text income. Gaul compared to that was a backwater without anything developt
HE WAS A CONSULE OF ROME!
@@TeutonicKnight92 Pompey was a b tier general, even with stolen glory.
Pompey had Caesar at the disadvantage but he was advised by the senators who were with him to take the battle to Caesar
Pompey wanted to starve Caesar out, because he outnumbers him, his supplies are dwindling and Pompey has the support of the territory that he resides in.
Such a shame, and what briliance on how Caesar pulled the victory off.
That being said, for Pompey to be legitimaly victorious, he needed a decisive victory, which he could only have by destroying Ceasar in battle. Otherwise some pretender could still say that Pompey is not the strongest and raise an army against him.
Fabian tactics have historically been extremely unpopular, despite their effectiveness. If a leader refuses battle time after time as an invader sacks his cities, steals his crops and massacres his people, how long before he loses face *and* legitimacy? Strategy and cowardice are difficult to distinguish from the common people's perspective, and if one commander appears weak at such a critical time, someone else might just step up to the plate.
@@samg.5165 Perhaps but this was Roman vs Roman. Endless brutality would not work in Caesars favor he knew this so he kept to his plan to fight Pompey.
As far as you can read anything into Caesar I'd say he lucked out until his luck ran out. He made countless mistakes and only his persistent tactic of siege/counter siege is a trick nobody really had a great answer for.
Well actually earlier Pompey beat him at it. Caesar lost many actions like the one in Alexandria. At first you see him growing more precautious, taking measures and learning from it. But finally he became too arrogant believing in himself. Which got him killed.
Similar to what Caesar did at Alesia but Caesar pulled it off much more masterfully.
The romans had this silly thought that battles are won only in the battlefield most by brute force and less by out thinking the enemy. That's how pompey lose ate pharsalus and how hanibal won all of that battles on the 2nd punic war
Emotional roller-coaster for Vorenus. Pride and camaraderie at being praised for Alesia, respect at seeing greatness emerge from the shadows when Pompey drew up the battle in the dirt, sadness and regret at seeing the defeat of his hero and the death of the Republic, and then most likely....pity and disgust when Pompey cried begging to be let go
Definitely disgust at seeing him crying and absolutely destroyed.
Its called empathy. I swear to God most people have the empathic range of a deep fried cactus.
@@comradebatman2992 Vorenus did not possess much empathy, or at the very least hid his empathy deep down under his Roman masculine outward appearance. There are a few times in the show where his empathy does push through, but much of the time, he has very little. I think it's fair to say that in this moment, while he would normally react with greater disgust at Pompey's vulnerability, he was more shocked than anything, and his respect for a Roman general would keep any outward disgust at bay. The disgust did ultimately materialize as empathy the next day, of course, though he was not lying when he told Caesar that he did not apprehend him because he was a broken man.
Pompey was absolutely flawless in his campaign against Caesar who through the Gallic campaigns had become a legendary commander as well. The way the two mirrored each other in their deployments. At Dyrachium, they build siege and counter siege walls snaking each others along with built up forts that made warfare so chess like and complex for her time.
Definitely one of the greatest match ups, right up there with Alexander and Darius, Hannibal and Scipio, Cao Cao and Liu Bei/Sun Quan, Belisarius and Witiges/Totila, Richard and Saladin, Napoleon and Wellington, Lee and Meade/Grant, Rommel and Montgomery, Von Manstein and Zhukov, Nimitz and Yamamoto.
He allowed an inept person to command the fleet, which is what allowed caesar to move his forces to greece to eventually crush him which then caused his death a bit after that in egypt. I would say he tried valiantly but it was far from flawless.
@@BudMasta It was less imcompetence and more them not knowing what time of the year it was at first due to the calendar drifting without a pontifex maximus
@@graham5716 it's the med dude, it was clearly incompetence. No one was smart enough but Caesar? That's your defense? Lmao...
@@BudMasta Mate, Caesar was the Pontifex Maximus. It was his job to keep count of the calendar, but for the last 10 years he had been campaigning in Gaul. So, yes, he knew that the month should have actually been October, but because nobody else was keeping the count of the calendar (once again, it was his job), Bibulus just treated it as January, because everyone treated it as such.
Matthias Corvinus VS the Ottoman Empire, Trajan and Decebalus, Titus Quinctius Flamininus and Philip V, Lucius Aemilius Paulus Macedonicus and Perseus, Lucullus and Mithridates.
"Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence. Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemies resistance, without fighting." -Sun Tzu
It may not be supreme excellence, but it's a lot more fun. Sun Tzu was a bloodless, joyless automaton.
That's why Caesar was the king. He could do it all.
Pompey was instinctively fighting Sun Tsu style, but politics and the panicky senators forced his hand and JC had that fiendishly clever maneuver ready to go.
This is one of the best scenes in television...the way that Pompey forgets his cover, and divulges the battle plan...remarkable. And knowing that Vorenus, while loyal and faithful to the 13th, would have surely felt the pain of hearing how the 'Republic died.' Beautiful show. It is criminal that we did not get more.
This whole episode is a masterclass in television. It shows that if you have competent writers/showrunners, the prelude and aftermath of a big battle can be far more interesting than a big expensive setpiece of the battle itself.
I took less as him forgetting, and more as him realizing from the very beginning that his cover was blown-continuing to act the part of a mere merchant was more a formality to maintain dignity. As he talks, he slowly unveils more and more knowledge that no merchant could ever know, until he's already divulged so much that to pretend to be anyone else would be an insult, to both Vorenus and himself. It was a carefully calculated decision, meant to appeal to his sense of honor: "See what a great man of the Republic I am, what a model of Roman virtue and dignity." I haven't seen the full show, so I can't say whether it's more manipulation or genuine appeal, but that was the sense I got watching it.
@@vurrunna I think he's meant to be shattered. This kind of phasing in and out of lucidity he shows in this scene is consistent with his behaviour throughout the episode, including one where he's just sitting under a tree mumbling to himself, ignoring a soldier's entreaty to run away.
Imagine how it would feel to have Pompey the Great drawing his battle plans for you. Chills
2:13
The way Pompey’s face drops crushes my soul.
Should have listened to Pullo, Vorenus. "Caesar is going to shower us with gold!" Caesar would have literally promoted both of them on the spot with Pompey in tow and they would have been set for life. You have to respect Vorenus for always sticking to his principles and beloved Republic though.
Pompey would have gotten a more honourable death than what he got; even Caesar was disgusted at how Pompey the Great met his end.
@@Nobleshield odds are that Caesar would of pardoned him. He did that a lot.
@@Gothic7876 that's shameful in its own way. I doubt Pompey would have wanted to become a tool of Caesar, helping him end the Republic just to save his own life
It is beautiful watching a man as proud as Pompey Magnus humble himself for the sake of his wife and children
Funny how if Vorenus would've captured Pompey and brought him to Caesar, Pompey would've lived.
Rather not. When Caesar captured Pompey's son (Gnaeus) in Spain he ordered to kill him. Even in this TV series Caesar admits that Pompey alive is dangerous no matter how weak he could seem.
@@timajos1 Depends whether or not if you believe he was ambitious and intended for the empire, or if he only wanted to protect himself from the treacherous senate and continue the republic.
@@timajos1 pompey isnt his son. The last thing ceaser needs is another reason to be called a tyrant. Pompey would've been pardoned.
@@jyotiradityasatpathy3546 I'd kindly ask you to reread my post. Historically Julius Caesar chased and killed ruthlessly Pompey's elder son Gnaeus after battle of Munda. No Caesar's "clementia" whatsoever. Pompey' s younger son Sextus was chased as well but escaped joining the pirates to establish after Caesar's death the last republican stronghold in Sicily. There are no reasons to believe that Caesar would have been more lenient with Pompey himself. As a pointed to in my previous post the HBO series presents clear hints that Caesar's outrage after Pompey's murder was a PR strategy.
@timajos1 was right, plus who would have thought that Ptolomeus(Egypt), Pompeii ally for long time have betrayed him. Vorenus as man who thought a Roman Republic is a sacred has done the right thing. At least he thought he has saved Roman Republic inside Pompeii even though the Republic would have not risen anymore in Rome.
Amazing performance by Kenneth Cranham who played Pompey and was a fellow Scott and veteran of the English stage. Kevin McKidd and all the other English actors would gather around at dinner to listen to his stories of being in the theater.
The show didn't really go into why Pompey was called "The Great" by the Romans. If you ever read about him, the man had a glorious military career earlier in his life leading campaigns on behalf of Rome, all over the Near East and the Mediterranean World. He was Consul three times and his hard fought, successful military campaigns got him three Triumphs. When there was a crisis overseas, Rome sent Pompey quite a lot.
Despite cutting Pharsalus for budget reasons, they managed to have a character giving an account of it in a way which makes for a great and significant scene.
Pompey was a great strategist, whereas Ceaser was a great tactician. Pompey was a master of the pre-battle troop movement and was never undersupplied, outnumbered, or on disadvantageous terrain. He won battles by outmaneuvering his opponents and not necessarily by outwitting them on the field of battle. Ceaser was the exact opposite, and Pompey's mistake was giving into the incessant demands of the politicians and taking on Ceaser on an open battlefield where Ceaser's tactical brilliance and experienced troops won him the day.
Pompey Magnus was a great man and they dared not harass him.
“I OWN YOU NOW”.
(servants) “Yea OK that makes sense”
He was an honourable man, Lucius Vorenus.
so many unbelievable performances in this show
One of the best scenes in the whole show.
Had fate never been so cruel for Caesar and Pompeii, they could've done more or even greater for Rome
Pompey made a great point. He was charismatic, and he definitely wielded more power and influence over the senate than one man ever should have. But, he didn't have the popular acclaim or single minded, ruthless determination that Caesar did. Nor did he have any real chance of locking in any real means to procure the status of "Dictator for Life" or to turn it in to a status that was a successive title. Rome would've remained a republic. However, seeing as the empire achieved its peak during the reign of the Caesars, and taking into consideration that some other powerful person would've secured ultimate prestige and control eventually anyway, I still believe things happened as they were meant to. What will be, will be.
I loved Pompey just the way he talked
I loved how Lucius was always ideologically on the side of his enemies. He was an old republic stoic supporter who was accidentally on the side of the new empire.
"I own you now"
lmao
lmfaoo never looked at it that way, hilarious.
Damn! What a scene! Fantastic actors.
The Best Scene in the entire brilliant series... In my opinion.
It didn't seem possible to lose. That's always a bad sign.
He forgot that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.
in the late war Caesar still had to deal with sizeable republican forces in North Africa under Metellus Scipio and his allies. Had Pompey escaped to Egypt and lived to continue the campaign, things might have been different.
Octavian seemed to be the legitimate heir after all. He was almost as good leading an army as Caesar was before him.
I agree. Although from a military standpoint Scipio and Labienus were already enough, Pompei would have been a great rallying flag for Caesar's political opposition.
That said, at that point there was no strategy: Caesar's 10th legion alone straight killed any enemy, in any army. Like men vs kids, butchers; they were slowed down only by logistics.
So, in the end, Caesar would have emerged as victor the same, probably.
@@badrulalam4077 It was Caesars idea to put that cohort of spearmen on his right to guard against Pompey's calvary charge at pharsalus. Winning him the battle and killing the Republic.
@@jamesdunning8650 Octavian was bad general, he lost many battles when he has been in charged of the army. He had Marcus Agrippa one of the best general in Roman history who saved his arse many times.
@@ramadhany2604 bingo. Octavian was a fantastic emperor and politician but certainly no military man
If you want to know the effect experience has on nearly any profession look at this battle. Ceasar was outnumbered and pompei had the better land. All Ceasar had was more experienced troops and commanders, yet he won because of it.
The weasel asked to be spared for the sake of his family. Vorenus fell for it. The family could have been well cared for without freeing Magnus.
That’s what I thought. There were servants there if I guessed right so if Pompey was that worried for his family I’d send them all but Pompey on their way East. I know they would have struggled but they would have lived. Even Pompey might have lived with his family as leverage but instead Vorenus let him go. He bought it hook, line, and sinker.
No. The Roman policy was to put every generation of a family to the sword, so that there would be no possibility of revenge. Pompey had no reason to expect mercy from Caesar, so he would have assumed that his children would be killed. His wife would simply return to the house of her father.
Of course, in the show Caesar says that he wanted to show mercy to Pompey, but that would be an extreme exception to the norm.
Exactly. Pompey manipulated Vorenus throughout the whole scene and I don't understand how people miss it.
Once Vorenus leaves, Pompey stops "crying" and starts whistling.
@@mrgoober6320 I generally agree, however Ceaser was exceptionally merciful to his former enemies
@@mrgoober6320 I believe pompey would have certainly been spared
It didn't seem possible to lose, that's always a bad sign
The history of the world would be very different if more leaders understood this.
Napoleon's Invasion of Russia
Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor
USA intervention in Vietnam
Argentina's Invasion of the Falkland Islands
Iran - Iraq war
I mean Japan knew very well it would lose, hence the surprise attack and hedging all bets on a quick decisive battle at Midway to force peace terms. They knew the war was effectively over after Midway but continued on solely out of pride and for the Emperor and simply hoped that they would be able to kill enough Allied troops to force the Allied to atleast accept the maintaining of the Emperor.
Add Russia Ukraine to that list soon enough
Add the Persian invasion of mainland Greece.
Imagine having a time machine and being able to see this bottle from a hot air balloon.
Its amazing how great those times were so many great men living in such a compact time period doing such things that the world hasn't been able to compare to them in 2k years
Okay, let's make game of it.
Name a decade, any Decade of "Modern History"
It was a critical period in history
The US founding fathers, perhaps. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison would hold their own against Cicero and Cato the Younger.
That's hardly true lol. Plenty of greater men in the centuries that followed. And who knows how many great men of antiquity before these Romans who did great things
Awesome scene!!
Perfect. Vorenus thinks a Pompey who could not remember where he'd sent Caesar as a young man is not the Pompey of old. A harmless Pompey it would be gracious to let go. Beautifully acted. It is the moment the Republic fell, though that seems the smaller tragedy here. Perfect.
Damn, one cohort (80) of spear-men lost the whole Republic.
Isn't a full roman cohort 480 man strong?
@@El_Deen Technically you're correct. The standard cohort was 480. But it varied wildly depending on the era. Ranging from 180 men to 800. I was thinking of a century when I said 80 men.
In late Republic times if an army had say three cohorts, the first one, (1st. Cohort) would have 800 men and the last two (2nd and 3rd cohort) would have 480 a piece (give or take for desertion and disease). This went up to 80 cohorts...So 4th, 5th, 6th and so on.
Technically one cohort won the whole republic. It was Pompey’s cavalry that lost it.
He played Vorenus like a harp.
God Almighty. I'm not a Roman. It was 2000 years ago or more. And it's still affecting. It still makes me close my eyes and wince. It's deeply, deeply human. Why did money, simple money, get in the way of seeing this series through? It makes me so angry.
You are a Roman.
RIP RAY X
had he apprehended him to caesar, pompey actually might've lived
0:01 - me trying to use my shitty fake ID I got off Amazon at the town pub
Everyone now talks about how great Caesar was, however I think most Romans would actually say Pompey was the greater general.
Pompey didn't really have Ceasar at a disadvantage. Pompey's numbers were close to double of Ceasars, but Ceasar's men were very experienced, disciplined and fiercely loyal to him. A lot of Pompey's troops were inexperienced fresh recruits, and had no particular loyalty to Pompey or his cause. Ceasar took advantage of his army's experience and was able to perform some fairly complex and unorthodox maneuvers, while Pompey had to stick to tactics that were basic and very predictable.
A perfect example is Pompey's failed cavalry charge - when they were surprised by Ceasar's spearmen that arose from tall grass they were hiding in, instead of retreating in good order as disciplined troops would have done, they fled and crashed into Pompey's own line.
Giovanni Brizzi :il guerriero , l’oplita e il legionario. Ed. Il mulino.
Il libro spiega bene anche Farsalo, se qualcuno vuole capire meglio le guerre del mondo antico.
In questa scena non si parla dei veterani della gallia che sono molto più feroci e esperti rispetto ai soldati di Pompeo. Il generale non dice poi quanto dura lo scontro in prima linea tra i legionari durante la prima fase della battaglia.
Great actors tho. Actually this was the first show starting the formula that game of throne upgraded later. Which is many story lines in the same show episode by episode.
Why when they produce top quality material do they cancel and just produce reams of rubbish
Was Pompey “playing” Vorenus?
Some very good acting in this scene. It's too bad the whole last season was so rushed.
Pompey was just as power hungry as Caesar.
Pompey is tricking you, Vorenus!
RIP Ray Stevenson.
Oh, the good old days when you could point at people and say "I own you now"
If Vorenus stayed with him who knows? At least he finally would have met with Caesar while he was alive.
Maybe Caesar would have forgiven him 🥲
Pompey took credit for stuff that he really did not win..he never defeated Sertorius in Spain
Pity me mercy me
I’m going to say it. Titus Labienus gave Caesar a tougher fight at Munda than Pompey in Pharsalus.
That’s not how the republic died. The Republic died over a gambling issue.
I hope he has a nice time in Egypt :)
Bad luck and a bit of greed killed the republic.
Very sad scene, until the crocodile tears begin and Vorenus is outplayed!
It didn't do much good to Pompey though...
@@07jaworski07 Pompey would of been better in Cesar hand he had planned on giving him full pardon and let him retire somewhere on country side.
Judging by Pompeii having to be threatened into finally attacking Cesar he also likely knew in his heart Cesar never really wanted him dead it was all political.
@@Byronic19134 it's not personal, it's strictly business
@@Byronic19134 It's very unlikely Caesar would have been able to show the same degree of Clementia to Pompey as he had to Brutus and Cicero and the like. He would have to have him killed as he was too dangerous left alive.
Lol pompey conned vorenus, great 'acting' haha
Cearsar, Pompey, Sula, Augustus, etc. ultimately had nothing good to contribute to human civilization, other than death and destruction for personal power and glory. In the end, Rome was taken over by the barbarians anyway and they plungend into the dark age for the next 1500 years. The same is true for all ancient civilizations, not one good thing to contribute to human flourishing. Our civilization would be exactly in the same place if these people didnt exist.
"Its how the rebuplic died" *600 years of civil war