DOOM Eternal's Pacing Problem (+Beard Reveal)
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- Many people probably disagree, that's okay as well! Let me know what you think down in the comments.
Payoyo's Taras Nabad:
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Payoyo's channel:
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Thanks to Allstin for suggesting I put my thoughts into a video:
/ allstin
Allstin's video where he touches on pacing:
• Proof DOOM Eternal’s E...
Others mentioned in this video-
Proteh:
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UberCringe:
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T0yOta:
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Yo controller quack swaps cosplays Hugo Martin 😳
So you’d say that the pacing should be the break in between the levels, aha. Not the incidental encounters themselves
Shorter levels yes
Precisely! Real life is pretty slow paced compared to Eternal lol
I 110% agree with this idea. I'd much rather attempt a UN run on a short slaughter kind of map instead of practicing and dying repeatedly on an hour long ML.
Yea it's worked so well for some modded maps and it would be great for ID to bring this kind of content to a wider audience.
first of all: cool beard dude!
second: I agree that we are missing something shorter in the game. Sometimes it's just overwhelming to know that the level is going to be so long! We need something more quack, sorry, *quick* as you said like 15-20 minutes instead of idk 30-60.
"Something more quack" 😂😂😂
YES THIS
Sometimes I just wanna play a level thats 15 min long!
@@Allstin that's what I miss about Doom 2016 and the classic Dooms.
Short levels!
I wish we could save progress on master levels so we can pick up where we left off after taking a much needed break.
This is what I wanted horde mode to be tbh just something to hop on to slaughter then do something else after
Yea same, something quick and intense
Wait does horde mode not really do that? Haven't played for a min but I wanted to jump back in if they added something like that
@@benjackman4814 horde mode is a pretty decent duration, and also it's not really too intense. But it's not really meant to be like a slaughter map.
Master Levels with checkpoints would solve the "It takes to long" issues
Checkpoints would definitely be appreciated by a lot of people
The game they took snap map away from is probably the one that needed it the most lmao
yo! your beard looks super nice today!
Thank you!
I really like the coloring of the thumbnail and your new pfp
I really appreciate it, I've spent a lot of time and effort on it lately.
ControllerQUACKSwaps
*Beardgang!*
I think this is why the large arenas with multiple waves are my favorite parts of the game. Tbh I don't like the horde mode scoring system or how it takes so much downtime in between waves. The score system isn't even actually Doom Eternal combat skill based, it's based on trying to get a multiplier and cheesing the system. If I could have the fights of horde mode without having to care about score and just go from arena to arena without a curated, "ok lock the player here make them do this traversal" that doesn't even really test your skill, or "get _____ number of demons to increase your score." To be fair I honestly expected horde to be a lot more like the horde mode mods or slaughter maps, and man did that kill my hype when they said it was going to be pretty much arcade mode 2.0. I get pacing is definitely needed in a game like this because, like you said, not everyone is sweatlord, and also it would turn away new players if everything was non stop action. But, with content like MLs and Horde targeted at the audience of players who have been playing the game for a while, and it having the "paced incidental encounters" tacked on just feels a little underwhelming.
Doomguy don't have time to sightsee, there's demons that need eradicating.
I haven't even played through Horde Mode yet (despite me being a fan of the game) because I know that it's *so* *long* ! I didn't even realize it until now but we need a Doom quickie
Yea and I get the need for moving through the level, I like the feeling of pushing forward.
But I feel like the levels have enough big arenas that teleporting through them every few waves would still provide a good sense of progression.
@@Lenias7 Exactly. I would definitely enjoy something like a single arena slaughter lvl with a few waves of hard fights that lasts 15 mins or so, and be able to select from a list of arenas, rather than a long paced out gamemode based on score. I guess Im saying I want something like snapmaps where I can create my own experience. I also guess that means I would heavily vouch for official mod support. Or just save up and get a PC to play modded levels and such.
@@ControllerQuickSwaps I personally don't like the current system of locking the player in place and teleporting them, taking away player control. Something like a simple portal that takes you to the next area once you go thru on your own accord would be a good alternative.
@@unlimitedmuphinz I'm indifferent to auto-teleporting vs opening a portal but I totally get why people would prefer the portal.
How does a single person have a beard that's so luscious it could represent a country?
🇺🇸
The thumbnail looks immaculate! Great work on it!
Thanks so much! Glad to see people are liking it :)
i agree with this entirely sometimes u just want action which doesnt over stay and is engaging and hard but doesnt take an hour of your time for you to experience that.
Here's an idea. Have a skull-switch thingie at the beginning of the map which teleports you to the halfway point of a master level. And at the same half-way point, have a message for the player "If you want to take a break, exit the level and when come back, use the skull switch near the beginning to start again from here."
This way the master level can atleast be broken into two halves.
There are obviously going to be people who use this to somewhat cheese the level but that's on them.
Could be an interesting way to boost replayability!
I never expected you to look like the Chad meme
🧔
babe wake up new controllerquickswaps
Yeah, I beat everything on Ultra Nightmare except World spear master level, because it forced me to beat game on Nightmare, then Extra Life mode Nightmare, Classic mode on easiest, each run take from 40 to 50 minutes and now they want me to do Ultra Nightmare and I felt already burned out.
I can't find a moment where I know that I'm with good energy at moment and I want to beat World Spear ML on Ultra Nightmare. When I think about 40 minutes of hard fights I'm like, eeeh not feeling like I can do this today. Also replaying Horde mode 5 times to unlock all skins just really burned me out. I need a rest.
I agree on your point, I love huge intense battles that pumps you up really hard. DOOM 2016 tho needs pacing, it's way different visually and it would fit the game perfectly
Damn that beard grew fast 😮
Nice video. I haven’t seen you in immortal realm vc in a while.
thanks! Yea the PhD has been pretty brutal lately. Haven't even had much time to play Eternal haha another reason shorter content would be appreciated lol
Would be cool to make ID Software change direction where they look at most popular mods, like master levels, test them make some tweaks, some fixes that modders could not do with limited stuff and release it as official content.
I would even like to pay for DLC than give us a pack of big content. Like 10-20 minutes challenges using all multiplayer maps.
But I would be mad if they would like to get 5$ for ONE map. After long time to get everything we would need to pay 666$ which would be ridiculous for example looking at Dead or Alive 5 all DLC price.
In my opinion ONLINE from Doom 2016 was more fun than Battle mode. Battlemode is competetive and I don't want to feel any pressure.
Online Doom 2016 felt more like fun, if you want it to be competetive then sure it can be, but I just felt like in old school arena shooters like Unreal Tournament, but anyway it was more competetive than battlemode, becaue all of players could select any weapon, but in battlemode it's Slayer vs two demons, this isn't equal.
Yea I would love to pay for another DLC or get community content released in the official game, but unfortunately it doesn't seem like it's going to happen. Would be incredible for sure though.
Interesting video man. Lots of thoughts here.
For me, pacing and challenge should go hand in hand in Doom. I can't be in an intense arena forever, but I need actual challenges to grapple with otherwise I'll get bored. I don't think watchability is *necessarily* what should dictate a game, as what's fun to watch isn't always what's fun to play, but then again lots of players have crazy amounts of endurance these days. Just look at Zero Master clearing master levels on UN on day 1. When Ultra-Nightmare isn't enough of a challenge for players, that's just impressive. That audience is definitely there.
For Horde mode, it's important to note that there definitely *was* a good portion of the community that genuinely wanted a scoring arcade mode like in 2016. I'm glad they finally got it, and I think it's a good mode to have too! The mini-campaign structure is great for dropping into to get my Doom fix if I don't wanna invest into a whole new campaign or master level, not to mention I LOVE the weapon roulette aspect. I'm lukewarm on the blitz rounds though, they're kinda one-note. I'd prefer if Horde was just dedicated arenas with traversals between them, but then again, it's a unique challenge to kill enemies as quickly as possible that some probably love and that deserves a place in the game. Eternal has a wide breadth of content for many kinds of players. The progression of the main campaign, the intensity of the master levels, the multiplayer of Battlemode, and the scoring of Horde mode.
So with that said, I think it would be only to id's benefit to include some kind of dedicated slaughter map mode or infinite survival mode if possible. It's not something I myself would/could play ALL the time, but I'd definitely use it along with everything else. If they finally gave the Horde fans Horde mode, perhaps this is what they should tackle next.
In the mean time, I think the fans that want those super crazy modes are often the modders who are able to make those things a reality. They're always able to make they want, but perhaps id could be more inclusive. I would love for Marty to finally greenlight mod support by the end of Eternal's lifecycle. That just makes all kinds of sense once they've done all they can do, to make Doom truly eternal. If id isn't able to make that kind of content, then at least let the fans once they're through with the game.
I'm glad you found it interesting! Nothing wrong with differing perspectives :)
I totally get that a lot of people wanted a scoring mode, but I feel like we were hoping the scoring was gonna be based on combat and skill, not stuff like the blitz rounds as you mentioned. I also wouldn't want watchability to be the *primary* driver of future content, nor to take away more paced combat from those who prefer it.
I'd imagine quick little slaughter maps should be faster to make than Master Levels and Horde Mode levels, so it's more something I'm suggesting on the side of the Master Levels. I think you put it perfectly in your last paragraph.
Something like the final *A R E N A* of the mars core master level
Yea solid arenas of nonstop combat is where Eternal really shined
@@ControllerQuickSwaps yep
Well dam 43 seconds comment got hearted
@@yesimforreal8655 haha you caught me at a good time 😂
controller quack sqwak with the got dam beard
🧔
Yes I generally agree, I think some of Eternals levels could have been broken up a bit more. Nekravol 1 and 2 are good examples of this, as by not lumping them into one level as some of the others in the campaign they have better pacing imo.
I don't know many people who have Nekrovol as their favorite level. It's usually one of SGN/Taras Nabad/Arc Complex. All of them fairly long levels.
@@filipbunalti good point, I simply meant from a length point of view
Personally all of my favorite levels are community levels that have nonstop combat. But I also understand I have different taste to many other people.
@@ControllerQuickSwaps being a PS4 player I can only look on with longing in my eyes lol
@@FlailheadGaming I hope you can get a PC eventually, it's worth it just for the community levels 😂
beard pog
Quiz time. Is he playing while talking or reading while let the video play?
Haha 100% reading, definitely couldn't do both at once.
Like the views, like the beard.
Much appreciated!
Shorter levels and not ridiculously long fights 24/7 is actually a big reason why I prefer 2016 lmao
2016 has some amazing qualities, I gotta hop back into that game at some point.
@@ControllerQuickSwaps I actually replayed it recently with quick swap combos, and ended up liking it more than Eternal.
The missions just are more enjoyable to me and have way more comfortable lengths and pacing. And I like the arena compositions, collision geometry, and enemies more.
The VEGA train battle on Nightmare is my favorite battle in the entire franchise. (the VEGA coolant battle is also a masterpiece as well)
Doesn't help that I also just prefer the 2016 art style, atmosphere, music, boss fights, weapon sounds, sense of cohesiveness and general presentation.
But I do miss the Eternal movement options and tech when I play 2016
@@somwelch9776 oh yea I feel yea, I too prefer the style and such. But I just cant go back to having no meathook or dash haha
@@ControllerQuickSwaps I feel the same! 2016 had such a good style and atmosphere but the gameplay mechanics of eternal are definitely superior
@@Lenias7 personally I can't even agree with the mechanics being superior either... Considering the amount of bugs and ways to fuck up your movement is in Eternal... Also the new enemies just aren't fun IMO... especially Blood Maykrs and Cursed Prowlers
But I do think the movement options and abilities are superior, yes
On the matter of shorter/burstier levels : I understand your POV, but I don't believe "we" as a collective community want that. I want levels to be between 45-90 minutes long with the "pacing" they have now. I have about an hour or so to wind down and play every day after work and chores, 1 master level fits that agenda quite well.
No disagreements on other points like derivative enemy types or using battlemode maps (for Horde in particular).
haha yea I definitely could've been putting too much of the community into that "we". It's good to see in the comments the diverse preferences. For sure wouldn't want to take future long Master Levels away from you guys who enjoy them.
I have almost the same beard at home :O
Haha yea I leave mine at home when I head out as well
Amen
long levels just hurt replayability i dread trying to beat world spear with no hammer and super weapons again just knowing how long it is
Agreed, I also much prefer replaying shorter stuff, even if it's a really tough encounter.
I think the longer the better. Master levels should test you on everything, so durability too. The real problem is that checkpoints are not available
To each their own :) and a lot of people agree with you. Checkpoints would definitely be appreciated by everyone!
Hugo Martin Jr
Haha I love this comparison
@@ControllerQuickSwaps Xd
I was NOT expecting a face reveal or a beard
Haha maybe I should put (+Beard Reveal) in the title
I think the Slaughter map idea is what horde should become. Break it up in different modes. A campaign horde mode which is horde mode right now. A slaughter horde mode which is just the combat in more slaughter map style of waves. I'm not sure if they should do leaderboards for this as well but frankly the scoring system is kinda eh and the leaderboard management is already whole mess already.
As length it should probably be longer per like arena but not so much you spend a long time grinding. Weapon progression I'd like to keep just cuz I like the improvisation this forces me more to do and variety it adds. But I do agree we could get more time with the full arsenal and imo a good solution would be to implement a secret 4th mission that requires secret switches and 100% combat. It becomes wholly optional for those that don't want to be in for a long time and those that do will get it.
Another Ive been hoping for since it was announced was modifiers. Let us customize our experience Id. It doesn't have to be too wild but just give options for huge variety of play. Like lemme toggle between the campaign or slaughter, progression or full arsenal, full run or individual mission/arena, that kind of thing. And even if it's a terrible idea they could throw in randomizer and randomized endless. It's going to be objectively worse than the curated experience but it can still be fun to see if RNGeezus is on my side or not. Or how long I can last until RNGeezus murders me with 31 marauders.
Give the choice here for the player so they can find even more fun on their own without being entirely reliant on the next update. Cuz those will eventually end.
Some other thoughts. I don't really think the drop off in interest is necessarily because of that. Imo it's just the content drought and the game just hitting past it's stride. I still think the game is pretty niche and never exploded in the casual crowd. And for the doom niche itself, a lot of players just played to their limit of their limit. There's only so many times you can dump hours in UN runs or make Utub content on the same stuff. And with so many new games always coming that attention will be taken away.
Yea more personalization would be great. Instead of weapon progression I always thought weapon mod progression wod be fun. Let me have the chaingun but force me to play without the shield.
You may be right about the dropoff, there's probably a lot of factors involved. Just a shame cause the game really is a masterpeice imo.
Solid video. Even more solid beard. 10/10
This just sounds like the Halo Infinite Battle Royale crap in a different form. When did viewer numbers become the only metric for judging how well a game is doing? They're not. If a developer had the option between making something a lot of ppl wanna watch but few wanna play or the opposite, they'd do the latter, because that would mean direct financial gain, instead of a small chance the viewer might buy the game. ID should never listen to Twitch Streamers and viewers only or even a bit, they should care about the people that actually care and PLAY the game. And if you think ppl who watch videos on games they don't own will then buy 'em, you're wrong. If that were the case, my steam library would be at like 3k+ games. It isn't. Not every game you watch videos about, you end up playing too.
Players >>> Viewers, pretty obvious as to why. This is a Video Game after all.
Also, imagine waiting 4 months for another ML and it's only half the normal level and about 15 minutes long. That would be such a massive let down. And on top of that, Slaughter maps aren't interesting after a short time either like: Oh nooo, 5 Barons spawned all around me,... again. There's no creativity or effort in mindlessly spamming Heavies and Super Heavies. Sure it'd be cool here and there, but there's only soo much you can do with spamming Demons.
Although i do wish they'd do something with the BM arenas, but if that would take even more time away from more Master Levels, than HELL NO. We literally only have gotten 4 post-launch, we don't know how many more we might get, so stretching resources even thinner is a terrible idea. They should focus on more MLs, not trying even more new things and wasting time on things that they don't even know, whether or not they'd be worth the trouble. Why do you think they scrapped Invasion, it wasn't worth the cost of making it and wouldn't have made them any profit, so they made Horde Mode, smt far easier to make instead that a lot of ppl wanted.
This isn't just about what you Twitch Streamers want, it's about what the most ppl want and what they would consider worth their time and resources.
Rant over
You sound angry, but I actually agree with the point you're making.
I do agree with the sentiment that players should be the focus over twitch streamers, viewership and such but the problem with the new MLs (at least imo) is that they focus a lot of ridiculously long encounters and it ends up hurting replayability in the long run
WS ML is the best example of this. Don’t get me wrong, World Spear was great but the level having so many dragged out encounters is one of the reasons I prefer Mars Core over the other (as well as other things which is a rant for another time).
Point is, longer levels =/= better
Solid rant. I definitely agree the priority should be players' enjoyment. Shorter tougher levels is what I personally enjoy as a player, and I was making an arguement for how it would benefit ID as well, with regards to their time and resources. But as I said, I wouldn't want to take the more paced stuff away from people, just would like some shorter intense stuff as well.
With regards to stretching resources or taking 4 months to make a ML, I'd imagine a map that's a quarter the length would take much less time to make, so we could also get new content more frequently! But yes, you're right, 5 barons spawned all around me wouldn't be fun, as I mentioned in the video, they'd have to do creative things each wave, messing with the environment or modified enemies, etc.
I don't stream on Twitch btw haha UA-cam exclusive!
The title caught my eye. Your points caused me to like the video. The gameplay in the background that is played on a controller, and that which puts my PC gameplay to shame caused me to sub. Excellent. Also, while scrolling through the description of your mars core UN run, I saw that you use a laptop, but can still get crazy ass FPS, so is there any advanced optimization that allows you to get good FPS or your laptops just a beast?
Hell yea! I appreciate that a lot :)
So my secret is to put all the graphics settings as low as possible haha I even have resolution scaling at minimum in that video.
It's also technically a beast so the combination of an RTX and minimum graphics settings gets me to the high fps I need.
I just hit 1000 hours on this game on Xbox and you're the person that I learned how to play from. Thank you👍
That's awesome!! I'm so happy to hear that :) congrats on the 1k!
Konvaz's slaughter map accomplished this near perfectly.
Definitely agree on the score multipliers, seems like someone who died like 20 times can still get a higher score than someone who only died once simply because the score multipliers are broken and extra lives barely reward you....
Oh yea Konvaz's corrosion may be my ideal length and it's so fun and intense with the screecher spirits. Could be a bit more difficult but it's damn near perfect.
@@ControllerQuickSwaps 100% agree. I've been playing corrosion slaughter map all morning coincidentally.
@@onlyusernameleft2 jealous! I was working all morning lol
@@ControllerQuickSwaps I had to work the day 6.66 came out and I was too tired to play it that night. I had a great weekend though.
@@onlyusernameleft2 same, it's been so hard to find time to play lately
That beard is fucking epic 😳
haha thank you kind sir!
Why doesn't id add support for custom levels? For the PC version, have a folder called Modded Levels and if there is a map/zip archive/idk present in it, show an option called Modded Levels alongside Campaign, TAG1, TAG2, Horde, Battlemode 2.0.
If the folder is empty (which it will be for most players) the option simply won't be shown.
This way the majority can enjoy the curated content that id wants. The more experimental among us can create Slaughter Maps, Randomised AI Levels etc. and play it there.
You've just described a very tedious, unpolished version of snapmaps. All of us want official modding support but we know it's not happening. Not enough return on investment for id to do that.
@@filipbunalti Oh so there is a polished version. Didn't know about it sorry.
Unfortunately it's very tough to do it 'officially' because a lot has to change in the game code under the hood. As well as company approval of each level (since for all ID knows, a specific level could break the entire game).
I'd love official mod support so much, but it seems like it's just not in the cards atm.
Your Doctor Voice lol
Nice! How do you get your stickybombs blue?
This was just a weapon mod from the modding discord :)
@@ControllerQuickSwaps NOOOOOOOOO! console restrictions strike once again ( yes, I'm a console peasant) :(
@@hehe4659 :( I wish you guys had some official mod support
@@ControllerQuickSwaps yeah! Well we gotta make do with what we have. Pc master race strikes again! Anyways do you have a public discord server?
@@hehe4659 I dont have a server myself, but you can catch me in Allstin's server :)
Plug plug
I wish we couldve talked about
There's always time!