Great video, though it would also be wise to point out that dyneema has a lower melting temperature than nylon, at about 145°C and 245°C respectively. Be careful when tying knots in dyneema when friction comes into play.
I find that this video misses most of the important differences between the two materials. Dynamic properties are very limited even with nylon, so in practical terms falling directly on a sling is always bad. The main difference is in friction and melting point, which means some knots work very poorly on dyneema. In fact, any knot on dyneema weakens the sling more than on nylon, and many knots slip until they fail. Other advantages of nylon i abrasion resistance, plus they have almost unlimited shelf life. So its pretty much weight/bulk in favour of dyneema, everything else is in favour of nylon.
About Dyneema failing in a fall when connected directly into it: Is there documented climbing accidents where this really happened? The DMM videos are great, but as mentioned before, they used a rigid mass and and the human body to harness is much less rigid.
Another consideration here is that nylon will absorb significantly more water than dynema and this reduces the strength of a nylon product. Therefore, in situations when slings are coming into contact with snow/water, dynema is a considerably better product (still don't knot it, etc)
So if it's such a terrible material for personal anchors... why do companies such as Metolious and Mammut make personal anchor tethers using Dynema? I understand the math and agree, static loads only... but the chances of a dynamic fall are pretty high. Why risk it?
The difference in impact force is actually not that high, especially with only a couple of feet of material. So they probably opted for a more slick, less bulky design for the PAS at the same strength. And you should never be above an anchor with anything but a climbing rope.
I was wondering why it's so dangerous to take a fall on a dynemaa sling and why it's always used as an alpine quickdraw but as you said when used as an alpine quickdraw there's the rope taking a lot of the impact while streching...
This is mostly good advice - especially regarding the girth hitched personal anchor. However I can't fully agree with using nylon for anchors and dyneema for quickdraws. Your intermediate protection usually experiences much higher peak forces than your anchor due to the pulley effect (force from the fall and breaking force add up). Although if you belay off your body and take a fall into the anchor you get a pulley effect there too. Belaying off the anchor directly is thus safer if a fall into the anchor is very likely and/or the anchor is not bomber - on the other hand peak forces on your intermediate protection will be much higher since belaying off a fixed point doesn't soften the fall anymore. The point should be, that Dyneema might not be the best choice for marginal placements whether at the anchor or anywhere else. To minimize peak forces the higher elasticity of nylon should be taken into account as much as the method of belaying. Nevertheless in most cases the difference between Nylon and Dyneema will be negligible whenever a dynamic rope is involved. Personally I think any anchor that you feel like you'd have to improve by using Nylon instead of Dyneema is not good enough in the first place and should be improved making that choice irrelevant.
You make a great point about choice of material at piece of protection (and the face it probably doesn't matter in the end). If you need to worry about a piece pulling out, you ought to be using a screamer, Ohm, or similar device. The point about belaying is wrong though. First, the situation you described only applies if you are belaying from above (as in belaying a second or toproping) or if the leader falls directly on the anchor (which is a huge no-no). The leader should be placing immediate protection to take the force of the fall as soon as they leave the belay station if this is expected for any reason.
That doesn't contradict what I said about belaying. I agree you should do anything in your powers to prevent a fall into the anchor. However, it is not always possible to place a good piece right away. In those cases, what I wrote above applies: IF a fall into the anchor is still likely, fixed point belaying puts less stress on the anchor. I was exclusively talking about belaying the leader. All of this is only applicable in alpine/trad routes without bolts where protection is not always obvious or easy to place. In these routes you need to consider what belay technique you want to use and how the forces on your anchor and protection pieces are going to be depending on your choices for belaying and the materials you use.
It does, let me clarify. Taking a fall directly on the anchor as a leader means that you have less rope out, therfore less stretch in the system and falling potentially twice as far as the length of rope, resulting in a factor 2 fall. If you clip the anchor and belay from the body, you now have an extra length of rope and the dynamic weight of the belayer to catch the fall. Despite the pulley effect and due to extra dynamics and friction in the system, at most you might produce a fall factor around 1.5-1.7. This is significantly less than a fall directly on the anchor. For the curious, this exact question answered by experts here: www.rockandice.com/gear-guide-tips/fall-factors-explained
Erroneous thinking here. Wired stoppers, eh? Utterly static cable, yet never a problem, because the lead rope is always the major dynamic shock absorber. Quick draws aren't a factor, and can be cables or chains, as on fixed sport routes. The concerns re: Spectra/dyneema involve use directly at anchors and stances, where direct factor 1 to 2 falls can happen because we intuitively fail to recognize what such falls represent. Slipping off a ledge with slack in your Spectra daisy can shock load the anchor and you severely; similarly, a short drop onto a dyneema rappel sling could be catastrophic, as it is not at all dynamic. One old-fashioned approach that reduces the risks, is simply building anchors tying in with bights of the lead rope, and avoiding the complications introduced by the extra cords and slings that are far weaker and less dynamic.
What the hell are these dyneema slings actually good for.I got one for a PAS, but discovered that it’s not suitable for that. Many top rope anchors I’m setting up, I am doing that from above the anchor since I don’t lead climb yet. Like, what can I actually use this thing for
so i'm confused....so are all brands of polyethylene not meant for taking falls? black diamond sells the Neutrino quickdraws where the doggone is made out of Dynex, which is still polyethylene. if this material is not ideal for taking falls then why made quickdraws out of them?
sounds like your saying it's ok to shock load nylon?!!! FF2 on a nylon sling is to seriously going to mess you! Keep shock loads on anything low-stretch to a minimum, be extra mindful with anything static!
Great video, though it would also be wise to point out that dyneema has a lower melting temperature than nylon, at about 145°C and 245°C respectively. Be careful when tying knots in dyneema when friction comes into play.
yup for prusik,autoblock use nylon
Dyneema is also more slippery than nylon.
I find that this video misses most of the important differences between the two materials. Dynamic properties are very limited even with nylon, so in practical terms falling directly on a sling is always bad.
The main difference is in friction and melting point, which means some knots work very poorly on dyneema. In fact, any knot on dyneema weakens the sling more than on nylon, and many knots slip until they fail. Other advantages of nylon i abrasion resistance, plus they have almost unlimited shelf life.
So its pretty much weight/bulk in favour of dyneema, everything else is in favour of nylon.
About Dyneema failing in a fall when connected directly into it: Is there documented climbing accidents where this really happened? The DMM videos are great, but as mentioned before, they used a rigid mass and and the human body to harness is much less rigid.
Another consideration here is that nylon will absorb significantly more water than dynema and this reduces the strength of a nylon product. Therefore, in situations when slings are coming into contact with snow/water, dynema is a considerably better product (still don't knot it, etc)
So if it's such a terrible material for personal anchors... why do companies such as Metolious and Mammut make personal anchor tethers using Dynema?
I understand the math and agree, static loads only... but the chances of a dynamic fall are pretty high. Why risk it?
Generally those products are labeled for body weight only. Personal anchors are for support, not dynamic climbing falls.
The difference in impact force is actually not that high, especially with only a couple of feet of material. So they probably opted for a more slick, less bulky design for the PAS at the same strength. And you should never be above an anchor with anything but a climbing rope.
I was wondering why it's so dangerous to take a fall on a dynemaa sling and why it's always used as an alpine quickdraw but as you said when used as an alpine quickdraw there's the rope taking a lot of the impact while streching...
Audio levels were low and it made it hard to listen, even with the volume all the way up.
+e10 Pitches I thought it was just me.
same! lol
e10 Pitches pathetic comment, keep your irrelevant thoughts to yourself. It’s not a video about mixing/eq
@@charliepainchaud780 Its called constructive criticism.
im deaf and i could hear him just fine
This is mostly good advice - especially regarding the girth hitched personal anchor.
However I can't fully agree with using nylon for anchors and dyneema for quickdraws. Your intermediate protection usually experiences much higher peak forces than your anchor due to the pulley effect (force from the fall and breaking force add up). Although if you belay off your body and take a fall into the anchor you get a pulley effect there too. Belaying off the anchor directly is thus safer if a fall into the anchor is very likely and/or the anchor is not bomber - on the other hand peak forces on your intermediate protection will be much higher since belaying off a fixed point doesn't soften the fall anymore.
The point should be, that Dyneema might not be the best choice for marginal placements whether at the anchor or anywhere else. To minimize peak forces the higher elasticity of nylon should be taken into account as much as the method of belaying. Nevertheless in most cases the difference between Nylon and Dyneema will be negligible whenever a dynamic rope is involved.
Personally I think any anchor that you feel like you'd have to improve by using Nylon instead of Dyneema is not good enough in the first place and should be improved making that choice irrelevant.
You make a great point about choice of material at piece of protection (and the face it probably doesn't matter in the end). If you need to worry about a piece pulling out, you ought to be using a screamer, Ohm, or similar device.
The point about belaying is wrong though. First, the situation you described only applies if you are belaying from above (as in belaying a second or toproping) or if the leader falls directly on the anchor (which is a huge no-no). The leader should be placing immediate protection to take the force of the fall as soon as they leave the belay station if this is expected for any reason.
That doesn't contradict what I said about belaying. I agree you should do anything in your powers to prevent a fall into the anchor. However, it is not always possible to place a good piece right away. In those cases, what I wrote above applies: IF a fall into the anchor is still likely, fixed point belaying puts less stress on the anchor.
I was exclusively talking about belaying the leader.
All of this is only applicable in alpine/trad routes without bolts where protection is not always obvious or easy to place. In these routes you need to consider what belay technique you want to use and how the forces on your anchor and protection pieces are going to be depending on your choices for belaying and the materials you use.
It does, let me clarify. Taking a fall directly on the anchor as a leader means that you have less rope out, therfore less stretch in the system and falling potentially twice as far as the length of rope, resulting in a factor 2 fall. If you clip the anchor and belay from the body, you now have an extra length of rope and the dynamic weight of the belayer to catch the fall. Despite the pulley effect and due to extra dynamics and friction in the system, at most you might produce a fall factor around 1.5-1.7. This is significantly less than a fall directly on the anchor. For the curious, this exact question answered by experts here: www.rockandice.com/gear-guide-tips/fall-factors-explained
Erroneous thinking here. Wired stoppers, eh? Utterly static cable, yet never a problem, because the lead rope is always the major dynamic shock absorber. Quick draws aren't a factor, and can be cables or chains, as on fixed sport routes. The concerns re: Spectra/dyneema involve use directly at anchors and stances, where direct factor 1 to 2 falls can happen because we intuitively fail to recognize what such falls represent. Slipping off a ledge with slack in your Spectra daisy can shock load the anchor and you severely; similarly, a short drop onto a dyneema rappel sling could be catastrophic, as it is not at all dynamic. One old-fashioned approach that reduces the risks, is simply building anchors tying in with bights of the lead rope, and avoiding the complications introduced by the extra cords and slings that are far weaker and less dynamic.
What the hell are these dyneema slings actually good for.I got one for a PAS, but discovered that it’s not suitable for that. Many top rope anchors I’m setting up, I am doing that from above the anchor since I don’t lead climb yet. Like, what can I actually use this thing for
Excellent and informative video!
Can I use nylon ropes for climbing and hiking??plzzz reply
Yes. Dynamic climbing ropes are made of nylon. Make sure you buy a rope made for climbing. Not available at hardware stores.
so i'm confused....so are all brands of polyethylene not meant for taking falls? black diamond sells the Neutrino quickdraws where the doggone is made out of Dynex, which is still polyethylene. if this material is not ideal for taking falls then why made quickdraws out of them?
Because your nylon rope is absorbing the majority of the impact
CONGRATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CHAPEAU!!!!!!!!!!!!! BEST WISHES!!!!!!!!!!!
wtf is with the volume?
Cheers mate
Thanks so much!
sounds like your saying it's ok to shock load nylon?!!!
FF2 on a nylon sling is to seriously going to mess you!
Keep shock loads on anything low-stretch to a minimum, be extra mindful with anything static!
Anyone else see a huge spider in the thumbnail?
Nylon is more abrasion resistant than dyneema.
subd
I couldnt hear squat