Im confident on all these things but I still watch these videos so I can sanity check my own methods and see the comments below. And everyone now and then you learn something epic like clipping a biner into an overhand so it can be undone more easily, you rock! thanks
Awesome! Thank you. I am a lead neophyte and the pro tips are so helpful, even though I have not practiced enough. Preparation (knowledge) is key to avoid any incidents. 🙏🤘
Could you make a video on your favorite ways to set up a top rope anchor using natural points such as a couple boulders, cracks, trees. etc. to have your anchor extended over a cliff?
I would have thought that the smaller carabiner in the middle would render the other two redundant, as all the down force is taken on the smaller middle one, the other two just providing a wider platform for the rope to move on, with no down force being exerted. Just a thought.
0:35 I know this isn't a "how to lead climb" video, but this is the only video I found actually showing the proper way to clip into an anchor, with the two clips overlapping, which my gym's lead climbing test requires. you wouldn't believe the number of lead climb instructional videos out there that don't even bother showing anchor clipping. new climbers don't automatically understand you're supposed to "z-clip" into the second anchor clip, so thank you for showing it :)
I’ve climbed 100x’s but never set my own equipment!!!! My kids and my life literally depended on me getting it right. Your tutorial made so much sense!! Thank you pointing out the minuet details like opposing carabiners and even the different types with scenarios you might use the different setups. I completely found myself I a situation I wasn’t prepared with anchor’s set waaay back but felt confident using what o learned and knew. Validating with a friend making a safe and fun first solo outing!!! Thank you!!!
This is all good stuff! I have one issue, though. There is never any reason to not put screwgates at the bolts. While it may be ok to use non-lockers, especially at a multipitch stance, where you may be saving on screwgates, you should never be low on gear when setting up top-ropes. Because the anchor is unsupervised, always try to use screwgates. I don’t know why the presenter makes a point of putting non-lockers there.
Since it’s only being pulled down, there’s no way those non-lockers will come unclipped since the sling will never go above the non-lockers (think like backclipping a quickdraw and having the rope go above the piece and then coming down from the top to unclip the carabiner). And non-lockers (even wiregates) are usually just as strong as a locking carabiner and will meet any requirements in terms of force. Also, because of their small size, they can fit on bolts nicely, especially when the person did the FA put the anchors in a bad spot where you couldn’t get a large carabiner in
GearAddictClimber You are correct only when it comes to lowering a leader before pulling the rope and letting someone else lead. That is the only time the method should be recommended. That is not a top rooe. When setting up a top rope (as in, something others will be climbing on), the direction of pull can be anything. Here are a few things that can open carabiners: ropes whipping in wind, rock edges, beginner climbers cleaning quick draws on top rope and forgetting that the anchor should NOT be cleaned. Absolutely NO trained climbing instructor should RECOMMEND non-lockers in ANY anchor setup.
John Liungman you’re never going to have enough slack on a toprope for any of those things to happen. Plus, we use non-lockers on quickdraws, and those are fallen on every day. Even if the rope somehow goes above the non-locker, the likelihood is next to none that your non-locker on your anchor will become unclipped. For the master point it is nice to have a locker, but for clipping into bolts, there’s not really a need since your anchor sling is never going above the bolts
@@davehause8571 Have you ever set up top ropes for kids? Kids fiddle with everything. And if you have a beginner unclipping qds on the way up, chances are they continue unclipping all the way to the top. After 25 years of teaching climbing I have seen many reasons to use lockers for top ropes. There is no advantage in using non-lockers. Do as you like, but please do not take MY kids climbing.
@@michaelcody2410 Hi, if they are both locking krabs but you forget to lock them, they may as well be snap links. The fine print on manufacturer's "instructions' insists gates must be closed in order for the krab to attain its full structural ratings. If they are placed opposed then there is only half the chance should a rope or a tape or something else contact them during the "worst possible" scenario, from either top or bottom, then only one gate would open (if it did). Opposing them just reduces this probability. Many new locking krabs feature these supposedly "fool proof" but not "death proof" automatically locking system. One is sitting next to me right now. Personally I find them a real PITA to use. Better not to forget to screw up the gates and or place them opposing to each other. This is a topic which can be argued at infinitum but only by those who have never been in a "situation" eg an unplanned fall, un expected equipment failure etc etc, then all of the supposed safety stuff that one learns (if learnt properly) will be tested to the max. At one time I would have questioned this opposing krab thing but after being in one of these "situations" where what you think could happen to your rigging in the worst possible situation or that of others, is something quite different in reality, when a body/equipment/rocks etc is flying through the air and everyone is trying to work faster than the speed of gravity. Based upon 35 years plus of climbing around the globe and caving.
Kind of makes sense to own a bunch of carabineers if you want to go climbing outside. If you buy affordable carabineers you can stay around 50€ for the complete set and climb on it for a few years. If you can't afford it ask a friend or whatever, but wearing down fixed gear is way more expensive (just not for you personally)
Absolutely excellent delivery and confident demonstration. You should point out that the quickdraws only work when the bolts are level with each other. "The locking quickdraw provides a little more security..." against or for what hazard? Please explain. Do you mean that if you are going to base manage the climbing, you won't be able to monitor and correct the 'biner gates if the 'biners were pulled around and bounced off the rock and a gate opened and either stuck open or let one side of the rope slip out? Thanks!
Great video. Very clear, thanks! One piece of feedback: it wasn’t clear that the “quad” required a much longer, different sling than the first method with the sling (where you mentioned it was a 48” sling). What length sling do you recommend for the quad?
Michael Yoon it's a double length sling, so it would be 96" or 240cm (I'm from Australia so I'm not sure if the inch measure is actually accurate, but in Oz they're 240cm slings). Hope that clears it up
It seems that you are always positioning the left anchor carabiner with the gate towards the rock. I would rotate it so that the gate points outwards, away from the rock, like you do with the right carabiner at 2:51
With the last option, would you use it mainly for setting up TR at the top and lowering then climb? Since you have to thread the loose rope through the chains? Thanks
Clipping the carabiners under the existing hardware prevents cross loading but creates a problem when cleaning the anchor. When the mussy hooks get loaded they pinch your anchor biners against the rock. In your cleaning video the anchor is conveniently on top of the existing hardware.
Shouldn't be an issue if you use a personal anchor I would think? Or even just walking your feet up the wall so the mussy hooks are pulling more away from the wall than downwards?
I am pretty new to setting up and cleaning anchors, but I have never heard this final suggestions for setting up a top-rope anchor with a locker attached above the rap rings/final links in the anchor’s chains. It seems really efficient and safe at first glance, but I wonder if there is a reason I was not showed this during my anchor-building class. Would love to hear from someone more experienced as to whether this is a safe and accepted, common practice before I think about doing it at the crag.
With a quad anchor, I think using **the same** two strands - as opposed to different groups of two - for both lockers is the best way to do it. You still get the same safety and backup were one of the bolted anchors to fail but you don't bring into play the possibility of the lockers (under load) squishing the dyneema between each other and the anchor then not equalizing itself
Also, while putting a carabiner into the chains doesn’t put FRICTION on the chain, it does (in the event of a fall), create large amounts of force on the spot where the chain meets the carabiner. This could put unnecessary wear-and-tear on the chains. As you said in the video, you don’t want to use fixed hardware for anything other than a final lower; and if you are double rope rappelling, the changing won’t see any friction at all.
@@gearaddictclimber2524 safety is much more important than wear. It’s a few bucks to replace chains. Donate to your local crag, teach safe technique and use best practices. My AMGA guide and these ones are teaching this is a common practice method just as they’ve now changed the AMGA and Alpine Associations recommendation on repelling from sport routes (to avoid it if possible) because fixed hardware is cheap and easy to replace. Lives are not. :) It’s a very smart tactic to use this exact technique with a new climber to be able to top rope a route, and then simply unclip the biner and be lowered.
Question: Why when constructing the first long-term anchor you showed (using a single master point) did you use non-locking carabiners to connect the sling to the bolts? Why not use locking carabiners to connect the anchor to the bolts at the top? Thanks
There is no reason not to use locking carabiners there, I believe it is just a convenience measure, as it is exceptionally unlikely that those anchor biners are at risk of coming open.
the bolt anchors are at the same height, if the rock has weakened longitudinal striations, wouldn't it be best to offset the anchor bolts, lets say at at a 45 degree angle from one another, thus creating more strength and a backup life-line if one breaks loose?
Do what makes you comfortable, I use one locker on the rope end for top rope. If the bolts are super close like in the video, I’ll just use draws. That set up loaded, is perfectly safe.
@@craigemmert719 can't twin/half rope with a gri gri and you would still want to have 2 bolts per rope at the top and I have never seen a climb with 4 bolts at the top. Twin ropes are also not supposed to ever be in the same quickdraws or other hardware they are supposed to have 2 seperate routes up a climb like if its a twisty trad route that you can't set a straight enough rope up the climb and would be filled with z crosses and alot of friction or a really twisty sport climb
Hi from Australia! Not sure if anybody gonna read this but I hope someone can answer my dilemma here: So doubling up a 180-240cm sling using 2x bite knots at 1/3 of its length for self-adjustable distance for equal force from the 2 anchor points works the best, OK, it makes sense. But if you don't climb the same route the entire day, perhaps just a few ascents and don't want to be carrying the long sling on you, which of the two following options is the best anchoring method for your usual 1-1,2m sling? A) Use the same method as shown at 1:38, that is two anchor points with one figure-8 knot on the entire sling and have 2 opposite carabiners placed on two different strands of the masterpoint or B) Use the same method as shown at the end of the video just with a single sling connection. That is hook up the single sling end on the 1st anchor point, have a bite knot at 1/3, then another knot at 2/3 and then hook up the other end on the 2nd anchor point. Then have 2 opposite sitting carabiners, each on 1 strand of the masterpoint . Option B is also self-adjustable and uses 1 strand like option A) So why nobody talks about option B)? Any drawbacks of option B) Because to me B) appears to be a totally superior solution over option A. (Note - if used figure-8 knots on option B) instead of bite knots it'd probably the even better). Thank you if any one of you experienced climbers can help me understand this better.
Any of these methods is safe. If you can’t see the anchor, or if it will get lots of traffic, use a locker on one side. But if a party if 2 is climbing and running up a route a few times max, and the anchor is clearly visible, then just 2 quick draws is perfectly acceptable.
Can someone explain why you’d ever use the first two techniques if they’re not as secure as the latter ones? It shouldn’t matter if it’s you and one person climbing vs you and five people. Shouldn’t we always use the more secure setup? Thank you!
Your anchor building should be efficient (with gear and with time). You may not have a slings and lockers, or you might have them but need them for a more crucial application (e.g. prussik for a rappel or a safety line). Furthermore, being near a cliff edge always carries risk, so it's good to be time efficient in anchor building. Nothing is quicker than two quickdraws. It's most common to top-rope off quickdraws after leading a climb, in which case your leader might be putting quickdraws on the bolts anyway (for their own safety, so as not to waste time faffing about with locking biners), and it's likely that building a more secure anchor on top of quickdraws is hazardous or impossible depending on the hardware at the anchor.
2 non lockers is safe if it’s visible and not overly used where the anchor isn’t getting attention from seasoned climbers. If a new climber is going up, I add a locker at least to one side. I also tend to leave the last quick draw clipped as an added back up because I’m a safety nut.
yes, but what about a second person which has to take back all this stuff while descending? The two bolts in the first anchor were not linked with a chain and a closed ring or carabiner.
CottonShot 1 Those bolts can hold the weight of a car, super strong. The rock will probably fail before the bolt. But just a quick visual check can determine if a bolt is good. If it’s all rusty and beat up, it’s probably not that safe. But if it’s new and shiny it’s probably good to go. Besides, the chances of two bolts failing is pretty low, almost non existent. And if you’re putting up the anchor, you have tons of bolts below you that you’re chipped into.
Check with local guides or local Access Fund to find out who installs and maintains the bolts. Pull test? Not on in-service bolts! Pull tests are typically to failure, and pull outward (tensile), whereas as a climbing anchor, you pull down (shear). Only the installer knows how long and what diameter and what type bolt it is, and hopefully shares that with the park or local maintainer. Pre- and post-climbing season we do a "triple T test" on bolts we professionally installed- tap on the rock for soundness, tug on the hanger for tightness, and torque (but not actually turn) with a wrench to make sure it's tight and not just held in place by mineral or salt deposits.
Answer is no, there is no way of knowing, you usually do not know who placed them or when, and you cannot inspect them more than superficially. Having said that, modern bolts very rarely fail. Plus, we always try to use at least two bolts.
If you use a dyneema sling to build an anchor what is the minimum required thickness? I have one thats 8mm but looks significantly skinnier than the ones i see used online? Thank you in advance.
This is great data but at the end I am confused ( 5:22 ) If the 'last person climbing' is unfamiliar with cleaning an anchor; How is the 'biner retrieved without climbing back up?
RooFx last person to climb takes off the locker and now is on the anchor there and is just lowered. Only one piece of gear needs to be taken and no adjustments made.
Noob questions...if you're planning to set up a quad, is there a reason to not use locking biners? (2:52) And is it common to set this up the quad on the ground and just clip it onto the back of your harness for the climb?
I think if you use locking biners, it is better. But non lockers are fine. And it is good to set up quad on the ground with the 2 knots before the climb, but if the 2 anchor points are not at equal level, you may need to adjust the knots when you reach the anchor.
Yes. I have a cordalette that is always in a quad. Much faster. Non-lockers can be use if the anchors is clear of obstruction and the gates are not be pushed against the rock. Otherwise, use lockers and if in doubt, use at least one. But it is very common practice to use 2 non-lockers on the bolts.
The "local" outdoor climbing area near me uses a single-point anchor system, I think I've heard the term monolithic anchor to describe them? How do you set up a top rope anchor for a single eye bolt?
Depends... In the U.S single point anchor bolts are very uncommon. Most bolts are 3/8th wedge, 5 piece or sleeve style expansion bolts that can be susceptible to corrosion / rust / loosening over time. This is why most bolted anchors have two bolts, especially if the rock quality is suspect. Single point bolt anchors are usually 1/2 or 12mm stainless steal or titanium glue in anchors that are totally sealed off from moisture and very, very strong. These are more common in Europe. These bolts have nothing mechanical that can fail and are usually in the 40-50KN range, way stronger then any of your carabiners or slings, so the bolt will not the the point of failure as long as the rock is bomber. Do some research and figure out what kind of bolts they are - they might be good enough to trust as monolithic anchors if they are designed for that purpose. If so rigging is easy, use two slings for redundancy or use one long sling doubled over and knotted into a master point. Add two opposing lockers and your done.
@@Bustercruz Great, thank you so much for a good answer to my question! The single bolt and rock it is attached to are definitely bomber, and are definitely designed to be monolithic. The angle between the anchor points would be extreme if I try to anchor to two anchor points, pushing 150 degrees at some spots. I just needed to hear the double sling part. That makes perfect sense using two slings for redundancy, not sure why I couldn't think of such a simple solution haha. Thank you very much for the help!
Hi. I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm new to this. Wouldn't be riskier to have the anchor set with one sling, rather than using two quickdraws? I mean if one of the quickdraw fails you have the other, but if the sling fails, that's all.
That's why you always see them put a knot in it in such a way that breaking any one strand or side will not lead to the anchor failing. Basically, you'll hang on the knot. Not ideal, but super good enough as redundancy.
I've been trying to figure it out... based on what I've seen, 120cm for 8-10mm, 180cm for 10-11mm 240cm for anything wider. The one in this video looks like it may be a 480cm
Equalizing is critical when setting multipitch anchors where it must catch a lead fall, on top rope the forces are much smaller so equalizing is less of a concern. Of course, that relies on both bolts being bomber, which is often the case on popular TRs. I would only use this config in the situation she mentioned since it takes longer to pull the rope through the chains than it does to tie a quad.
I don't understand why the time frame a group is toprope through 2 quickdraws matters? (for having one quickdraw having 2 lockers) Either its safe for the day or its not? How is something safe for 2-3 climbers and then not for 6-7?
The two quick draws are really just for a quick lower, before pulling the rope and having the next gal lead. As such, it is perfectly safe, since the rope is weighed and cannot go anywhere. For a full day of top-roping, all kinds of things can happen. Rope movement can potentially cause carabiners to open. Even more dangerous: if somebody top-ropes and cleans the quickdraws below, they may just go on and unclip the anchor too without thinking. This is by no means a stretch, it happens! So for a full day, or with inexperienced climbers, always use locking biners.
@@johnliungman1333 I could potentually see what youre saying. With brand new climbers. But i still stand by the idea that something either is safe or it isn't. Though yeah i could see some church group kid pulling off a quickdraw off the top, cuz i mean, you never know with somekids
@@ryanwsu4 You should also consider cyclic wear on the sling. 2-3 climbers will have the sling rubbing left and right on the rock a certain amount of times. 6-7 will have twice or three times that rubbing motion. So much more wear. And at some point the sling could tear up.
Good question. Because two carabiners will lie flat against the rock. This adds a lot of friction and makes nasty twisting in your rope. It's much better to have the different arms of the anchor come together at a single point.
Using a pulley would create a system with a lot less friction. That could make a controlled lower more difficult. Pulleys are also heavy and more expensive - the idea here is to conserve the wear and spend less money on gear, not more. This is only a concern for full time guides and instructors who put hundreds and hundreds of days on their equipment. I used to guide in a soft sandstone area and would saw 1/2 through locking carabiners used for top roping in about a month.
@@Bustercruz , thanks. After months of learning since I made this comment, I understand that the right about of fiction in the system is a good thing. I have considered this myself to also go easy on cord. If you saw lots of wear, did you try steel carabiners?
I always avoid using dyneema in a quad as the system will be shock loaded (granted not as much as a sliding x) and dyneema doesn't stretch as much as cord or a nylon sling
Good tip. Dyneema is also not made for knots. The break strenght of a dyneema sling with an overhand knot is only a 1/10 of the original max break strenth!
@@ludwigkranzlein9893 Ludwig, I often use dyneema for quad systems, so your comment is concerning for me. Do you have a test result reference or any other reference for the 9/10 loss of strength induced by an overhand on dyneema slings? Mammut user manual mentions a loss of about 50%, which is well within what you would expect and very close to other materials - see static.mammut.com/file/User_Manual_HI-MAM-023-2.pdf or google Mammut Contact Sling 8.0 and get the manual in the bottom of the product page. Thanks for raising the issue.
@@ludwigkranzlein9893 Check out the technical notice by Petzl on their Dyneema sling. This is directly from the manufacturer that does extensive testing on their products and concludes strength is only reduced by 50% by using overhand knots leaving you with about 10kn. 10kn is still substantial, especially considering there are other force absorbing elements in the system like climbing rope, slippage of the belay, climbers bodies, harnesses, etc. www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Anchors/technical-content-product/ST-ANNEAU
@@mikeomara9194 If you use the sling as a tether, yes. But when you use a sling in an anchor you are doubling it so the strength would be 44kn - the knot. If the knot reduces the strength by 50% then you still have a 22kn anchor.
it's your level of comfort and the application that you are using it for, I was trained the same way,... 4 lockers, one on each hanger, and 2 for the master point opposite and opposed,... as you gain confidence you realize those biners are not moving around and the chance of them opening is very rare...most sport climbs (at crags - 1 pitch) now a days have the anchor bolts spaced equally apart that using 2 quick draws is very sufficient (&efficient) for a leader to lead a climb followed by a (less experienced) seconder on top rope who will clean it, and then you carry on to the next climb. Just try it... do a pitch, make an anchor with 2 quick draws, then after you get lowered, flick the rope as hard as you can in many different ways to try and get the rope to unclip from the anchor or the draw to unclip from the bolt(s)
@@heli400 Good answer. As long as the carabiners are loaded (which in this situation they always would be unless someone were to climb ABOVE them), there is no potential force on the gates that would cause them to open. That is the justification for using non-lockers. Ropes don't just jump out of loaded carabiners for no reason.
Prairie Climber you aren’t answering the question. He didn’t ask if it would be acceptable to use non-locking carabiners. He asked why wouldn’t it be safer to use locking carabiners.
@@kyleyoung4974 No, he asked why were non-lockers that were placed on the bolts were acceptable for most of these anchor configurations, and then he stated he thought they always needed to be locking carabiners on the bolts, that is how I interpreted his question so I hoped I answered his question.
No, you want the locker oriented perpendicular to the wall so the rope runs smoothly through it. So you want to clip the locker to a link that is oriented parallel to the wall.
Putting that non-locker in the middle of the masterpoint seems bad since in the case of a fall, most of the load would be going on only that one non-locker. Not that I have a problem with that (the non-locker would hold any fall day and night), but if you are using 2 locking carabiners with opposing gates, you’re clearly looking for extreme safety and redundancy. And 1 non-locker receiving most of the load seems like something the AMGA would be against
The 2 lockers with opposing gates (lockers aren't really needed but reversed and opposed is) are to ensure the rope doesn't become disconnected from the biners, it's not needed for the load. When leading you clip into 1 non locking biner all the time and a lead fall has way higher forced than a top rope fall on an anchor.
@@FettkeSteve then by that logic, there’s no need for 2 lockers to be used to keep then rope from uncoupling since we fall on a single non-locker when leading all the time. It just doesn’t make much sense to have 2 lockers there just to make sure the rope doesn’t detach; it’s overkill.
One suggestion to add to the beginning of the video, or creating its own video: "Before setting up your anchor ALWAYS check the fixed gear. Not all areas are maintained and maybe in need of repair." Sometimes something looks bad, but isn't and vice-versa. Interesting Elaina said not to top rope off of fixed gear in the begging and then it is stated at the end; but at the end an anchor is shown with a carabiner attached to the chains and the rope going through the chains and the carabiner. Wouldn't this be the same as top roping off of fixed gear. Also, aren't some chains used a softer metal and can "stretch" over time with lots of use. So, isn't it best to treat chains like mussy hooks and not top rope off them at all? One would think it would be better to top rope off of a mussy hook before top roping off of chains (more material on the mussy hook to have to go through). What about places that use shuts?
I am not a climber but find this stuff interesting and would like to know if your life depends on it, why have a method that is more secure than another and not just used the MOST secure method every time?
pgreenx sometimes it can be a matter of how much gear a climber has on them. If you have two draws and no double length sling, then you would use the first method. If you don't have locking biners in your rack, then you can't use locking biners. It can come down to weight. A locking biner is sometimes double that of a wiregate. As was said in the video too, it can also be a matter of flexibility and how long you will use the anchor. If your doing the one pitch all day then the quad is good because it allows you to move wider along the same pitch. The double draw method doesn't have as much horizontal width as one anchor will take more weight than the other. Each piece of gear is rated for a lot of force. I mean a lot. Slings can be 22kn and some biners are 28kn. This is about 2000kg+ of force. Each anchor type is safe, but yes using a locking biner can make it more secure if there is a chance that something might open the gate. I hope this helps out and answers your inquiry.
I did this past week, with the reasoning being the next climber was top roping up to clean the anchor and then we were finished. Not recommended for extended use
@@charliepainchaud780 Thanks for your answer. I get the idea that you set up something quick and less secure if you are only going to use it for a little while. But I still think there is some flaw in that reasoning: It's like using your seatbelt only for long drives. I want to set up something that is safe regardless of the time I'm going to use it. But probably that first method is already very safe if you use two quickdraws opposite each other. It's also a bit different if someone just lead the pitch and there are quickdraws all along the route as a backup or if you are just setting up a top rope from above for some reason.
Florentin Goyens also- I had literally just come from the gear store where I purchased the draws. So there was no wear & tear, plus draws were opposing, and (for us) it was a warm up 5.8 route where a fall wasn’t even possible. I work in the emergency preparedness market and I never skimp on safety, it was just because my second was top roping up and cleaning and we were finished. I like your seatbelt analogy though!
My friends and I have been climbing for about 5 years and we use two non-locking quickdraws opposite opposed for 95% of the climbs we do outside. Not once have I ever seen the draws clip out of the hangers or have the rope slip out of the draws or any other error. I agree in general it would be a safe practice to use at least one locking quickdraws, but it's very very unlikely for a loaded quickdraw to suddenly have a catostropic failure and slip out somehow
The CLOVE HITCH is the Most Efficient, Strongest, Safest, and Fastest way to tie into the Anchor Points and the Master Point on all anchors!!! Refer to Brent Peters "Clove Hitch for Anchors" video
Great question! Ill give a brief answer and let the more seasoned AMGA guides who run this account give a more thorough reply. From my trainings, the issues with knots in dyneema surround the reductions in strength. If you are using a single dyneema sling as your tether (not recommended), and you add a knot, you decrease the strength of the sling and greatly increase the possibility that a fall of only a few feet can break the sling (because it is so static). In the "quad" shown here they have doubled the sling and therefore each leg of the anchor can manage 4 x 22 kN of force (88 kN minus the strength reduction from the knot). Having 88 kN of strength on each leg of your anchor is wildly more strength than is necessary to protect the toprope! Even if the strength reduction is as much as 40%, your anchor is still phenomenally strong.
Great video and fantastic info however at 5:20: If the lead realises that all the force is taken now by ONE anchor point (once that Krab is inserted as shown) and no longer the two (anchor points). If there are two anchor points better to use them for the redundancy they offer (assuming or knowing they are good BP placements). The bolt placements here look to be over fractured rock. Those hangers look like Petzl coeur's so they are rated at 25KN, that Maillon looking thing? and the Krab, yeah probably around the same KN rating. However in this scenario shown it appears there will be a sideways torquing on the RHS bolt hanger and not the intended downward force as the anchors were installed and intended. (I know they have the three anti-rotation knobs for want of a better word -but this is not granite or basalt but sandstone). The angle (unless incorrectly installed) of the chains should not be changed for any misdirection as apposed to redirection of downward forces, especially in this case as the two (Petzl) hangers are the same. I know this is just a top rope but still best to utilize fully both anchor points in this case I feel. Just a comment and each to their own when it comes to this stuff.
You still have redundancy, if the locker fails then the chains will take the weight with little extension. Since it's TR on a dynamic rope, personally I wouldn't care about equalization as the bolts look bomber and should not see more than a few times body weight.
Stop over thinking it. Those 8mm Maillon hold 6k pounds, same for the chain. Equalization is a Myth and everything in that system could hold 10 people and they will all break before anything in that anchor.
Why using a sling is more safe than two quickdraws? I have the illusion that the quickdraw approach is safer because if somehow one quikdraw fails, you have the second one. If the sling fails, you have nothing. xD
I like the video, but she was building the anchor without clipping in for protection which would make it very difficult to get the anchor's carabiners under the chain linkage. As a novice lead climber, you just confused me. It would be more realistic for you to climb up and protect yourself first, then build the anchor.
Climb up, put a quick draw on one bolt, and clip the rope into it. Then build any of the options shown. For the first two options just add the other quickdraw. If it's not one of the first two that uses the quickdraw, then just stand up to unweight the quickdraw and put another biner under it. After the anchor is complete clip the rope into the reversed opposed biners, double check that you did it correctly, and unclip the quickdraw.
3:49 NO! Clip those carabiners through 3 strands, not 2 as shown in this video. If those 2 strands belong to the same half of the sling, then in case the sling is upclipped on one bolt, your only protector is the overhand knot. If the knot fails, both carabiners will fly out of the sling and you are in the air.
That idea of clipping a carabiner through the knot to make it easier to undo seems a bit suss. If one leg of that anchor fails, you'll be hanging from that knot. Do you really want a carabiner in there preventing it from tightening 😬
I’ve never understood the idea and truely disagree with using a lockers in one connection and not the other. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, the bottom biner is just as likely to unclip or cross load as the top one. Your bottom locker won’t mean much when your non locker above fails
CLOVE HITCH at the anchor points and the master point for the most Safest, Strongest, Fastest, and Efficient Anchor!!! Refer to American Mountain Guides Association Brent Peters "Clove Hitch for Anchors" you tube videos !!
the strands while doubled up and under load could rub against eachother and heat up maybe? it has a really low melting point. dyneema is known to cut through itself sometimes because of this.
If I and my climbing partner are just climbing the route once I would just use the mussey hooks in this case. Nice demo tho. I disagree that top roping on a mussey hook is not acceptable practice however. Whenever you lower off, you are applying *weighted* friction to the system, which produces far more friction and material wear than taking in slack on a top rope. Remember, when top roping, the rope is not going to be moving much while also under weight. This drastically reduces the wear of the hooks in comparison to lowering off. So if its okay to lower off, then top-roping isnt going to accelerate wear that much.
Version 1) insecure and only valid if you do not toprope on it. Version 2) the upper locking carabine should be turned by 180 degrees so the srew is turned shut in the direction of gravity. Version 3) what the heck? in the master point you use 2 (???) locking carabine, but at the rock you use open ones??? I am happy to have had some very in-depth discussion and testing with my trainers about how to set-up anchors in a save way for a whole course-day to be top-roped on. Wouldn't trust most parts of the content of this video an inch.
chaosengine is incorrect. All of these anchors are very common practice in single pitch rock climbing. They do offer a variety of security for different situations. Even the lowest security configuration is very secure - in normal top roping or lowering situations the rope is under some tension. Ropes don't just magically jump out of carabiners. This video was produced my the AMGA which is the premier guide's association in the U.S. and the only organization in the U.S. recognized internationally by the IFMGA and UIAA. There is no source for technical climbing content that is more heavily vetted or backed up by testing then this.
@@Bustercruz I appreciate your answer. Where I was certified, trainers have to use at least one closed system (i.e. locking carabine). Answering to the argument "don't just magically..." there is a series of books one could say serve as standard - unfortunately they are only available in German ("Sicherheit in Fels und Eis Band I-III", Pit Schubert). The author analyses tons of accidents and yes, they can "magically jump out".
Im confident on all these things but I still watch these videos so I can sanity check my own methods and see the comments below. And everyone now and then you learn something epic like clipping a biner into an overhand so it can be undone more easily, you rock! thanks
I liked the added biner when running the rope through the chains to take the friction off the fixed anchor.
Awesome! Thank you. I am a lead neophyte and the pro tips are so helpful, even though I have not practiced enough. Preparation (knowledge) is key to avoid any incidents. 🙏🤘
Straight up 6 minute mini clinic! Thanks so much for this!
You all have an amazing sense of presentation.
Could you make a video on your favorite ways to set up a top rope anchor using natural points such as a couple boulders, cracks, trees. etc. to have your anchor extended over a cliff?
Thank you! It makes so much sense now that I've seen it but I always wondered why you didn't clip all the ropes in a self equalizing anchor.
Another terrific video, good stuff. That tip at 2:25 of adding a third smaller carabiner between the two lockers at the master point was a new one.
Could simply use bigger carabiner for the rope, not using H-shape carabiner
I would have thought that the smaller carabiner in the middle would render the other two redundant, as all the down force is taken on the smaller middle one, the other two just providing a wider platform for the rope to move on, with no down force being exerted. Just a thought.
"before your life is on the line"... Love it!
“Screw the gates down before you don’t screw up” she’s just dropping gems
0:35 I know this isn't a "how to lead climb" video, but this is the only video I found actually showing the proper way to clip into an anchor, with the two clips overlapping, which my gym's lead climbing test requires. you wouldn't believe the number of lead climb instructional videos out there that don't even bother showing anchor clipping. new climbers don't automatically understand you're supposed to "z-clip" into the second anchor clip, so thank you for showing it :)
Great content! I thoroughly enjoyed.
Thank you. I actually learned something here 😊
Bookmarked. Great video.
This was a very thorough guide for anchor building thanks
Great video, very helpful!
I’ve climbed 100x’s but never set my own equipment!!!! My kids and my life literally depended on me getting it right. Your tutorial made so much sense!! Thank you pointing out the minuet details like opposing carabiners and even the different types with scenarios you might use the different setups.
I completely found myself I a situation I wasn’t prepared with anchor’s set waaay back but felt confident using what o learned and knew. Validating with a friend making a safe and fun first solo outing!!! Thank you!!!
Finally a quick video on how to do it.
Good and concise video.
Simple and clear. Thanks 🙏🏻
I just finished to be subscriber. it is a good video to know how to set up. :)
Great video, thanks!
This is all good stuff! I have one issue, though. There is never any reason to not put screwgates at the bolts. While it may be ok to use non-lockers, especially at a multipitch stance, where you may be saving on screwgates, you should never be low on gear when setting up top-ropes. Because the anchor is unsupervised, always try to use screwgates. I don’t know why the presenter makes a point of putting non-lockers there.
Since it’s only being pulled down, there’s no way those non-lockers will come unclipped since the sling will never go above the non-lockers (think like backclipping a quickdraw and having the rope go above the piece and then coming down from the top to unclip the carabiner). And non-lockers (even wiregates) are usually just as strong as a locking carabiner and will meet any requirements in terms of force. Also, because of their small size, they can fit on bolts nicely, especially when the person did the FA put the anchors in a bad spot where you couldn’t get a large carabiner in
GearAddictClimber You are correct only when it comes to lowering a leader before pulling the rope and letting someone else lead. That is the only time the method should be recommended. That is not a top rooe. When setting up a top rope (as in, something others will be climbing on), the direction of pull can be anything. Here are a few things that can open carabiners: ropes whipping in wind, rock edges, beginner climbers cleaning quick draws on top rope and forgetting that the anchor should NOT be cleaned. Absolutely NO trained climbing instructor should RECOMMEND non-lockers in ANY anchor setup.
John Liungman you’re never going to have enough slack on a toprope for any of those things to happen. Plus, we use non-lockers on quickdraws, and those are fallen on every day. Even if the rope somehow goes above the non-locker, the likelihood is next to none that your non-locker on your anchor will become unclipped. For the master point it is nice to have a locker, but for clipping into bolts, there’s not really a need since your anchor sling is never going above the bolts
First method is sufficient. If you want to add lockers please do but it isn't NECESSARY. Get over yourself.
@@davehause8571 Have you ever set up top ropes for kids? Kids fiddle with everything. And if you have a beginner unclipping qds on the way up, chances are they continue unclipping all the way to the top. After 25 years of teaching climbing I have seen many reasons to use lockers for top ropes. There is no advantage in using non-lockers. Do as you like, but please do not take MY kids climbing.
When setting up carabiners, always make sure they're opposite, opposed, facing different ways, and other synonyms.
Exactly
Why opposed if they are locking? What is the purpose?
@@michaelcody2410 Hi, if they are both locking krabs but you forget to lock them, they may as well be snap links. The fine print on manufacturer's "instructions' insists gates must be closed in order for the krab to attain its full structural ratings. If they are placed opposed then there is only half the chance should a rope or a tape or something else contact them during the "worst possible" scenario, from either top or bottom, then only one gate would open (if it did). Opposing them just reduces this probability. Many new locking krabs feature these supposedly "fool proof" but not "death proof" automatically locking system. One is sitting next to me right now. Personally I find them a real PITA to use. Better not to forget to screw up the gates and or place them opposing to each other. This is a topic which can be argued at infinitum but only by those who have never been in a "situation" eg an unplanned fall, un expected equipment failure etc etc, then all of the supposed safety stuff that one learns (if learnt properly) will be tested to the max. At one time I would have questioned this opposing krab thing but after being in one of these "situations" where what you think could happen to your rigging in the worst possible situation or that of others, is something quite different in reality, when a body/equipment/rocks etc is flying through the air and everyone is trying to work faster than the speed of gravity. Based upon 35 years plus of climbing around the globe and caving.
Step 1: own 50,000 karabiners
Actually it's five . . .
Kind of makes sense to own a bunch of carabineers if you want to go climbing outside.
If you buy affordable carabineers you can stay around 50€ for the complete set and climb on it for a few years. If you can't afford it ask a friend or whatever, but wearing down fixed gear is way more expensive (just not for you personally)
@@johngo6283 I bet you’re fun at parties
Step 2: spell carabiner correctly.
@@alexprescott5896 3. notice other languages and spelling exists
4. quit youtube from shame
Absolutely excellent delivery and confident demonstration. You should point out that the quickdraws only work when the bolts are level with each other. "The locking quickdraw provides a little more security..." against or for what hazard? Please explain. Do you mean that if you are going to base manage the climbing, you won't be able to monitor and correct the 'biner gates if the 'biners were pulled around and bounced off the rock and a gate opened and either stuck open or let one side of the rope slip out? Thanks!
Quickdraws work ok even if not perfectly equalized. Assuming good bolts. On QD is then just a backup.
vdery nice and neat
Great video. Very clear, thanks!
One piece of feedback: it wasn’t clear that the “quad” required a much longer, different sling than the first method with the sling (where you mentioned it was a 48” sling).
What length sling do you recommend for the quad?
Michael Yoon it's a double length sling, so it would be 96" or 240cm (I'm from Australia so I'm not sure if the inch measure is actually accurate, but in Oz they're 240cm slings). Hope that clears it up
You could also create a quad using cordelette
A 180 cm sling works great. Personally I find a 240 cm to be a bit too long. 180 cm slings are made by Petzl, CAMP, and Mammut.
Could you also add carabiner in the overhand knots on the quad anchor to help untie?
It seems that you are always positioning the left anchor carabiner with the gate towards the rock. I would rotate it so that the gate points outwards, away from the rock, like you do with the right carabiner at 2:51
Always exercise the best safety practices everyone!
"overkill or killover"
With the last option, would you use it mainly for setting up TR at the top and lowering then climb? Since you have to thread the loose rope through the chains?
Thanks
Clipping the carabiners under the existing hardware prevents cross loading but creates a problem when cleaning the anchor. When the mussy hooks get loaded they pinch your anchor biners against the rock. In your cleaning video the anchor is conveniently on top of the existing hardware.
Shouldn't be an issue if you use a personal anchor I would think? Or even just walking your feet up the wall so the mussy hooks are pulling more away from the wall than downwards?
It really depends on the angle of the fixed gear. It’s normal to have to pull weight off from time to time to clean gear and to have gear pinched.
at the last station the bolts and hangers were painted? for cosmetic effect?
I am pretty new to setting up and cleaning anchors, but I have never heard this final suggestions for setting up a top-rope anchor with a locker attached above the rap rings/final links in the anchor’s chains. It seems really efficient and safe at first glance, but I wonder if there is a reason I was not showed this during my anchor-building class. Would love to hear from someone more experienced as to whether this is a safe and accepted, common practice before I think about doing it at the crag.
Totally safe; probably weren't shown it because it's not necessary, just a handy tip at preserving gear.
With a quad anchor, I think using **the same** two strands - as opposed to different groups of two - for both lockers is the best way to do it. You still get the same safety and backup were one of the bolted anchors to fail but you don't bring into play the possibility of the lockers (under load) squishing the dyneema between each other and the anchor then not equalizing itself
Hi there, thank you for sharing this. Just a question: wouldn't it be better to use a pair of lockers for clipping the sling to the bolts?
2 non-lockers is as safe as one locker. These systems are based on failure rates, and almost never have 2 non-lockers accidentally popped out.
even if I'm using 2 point protection and not the mounted bolts on a wall I should make the caribiners opposite and opposing?
yeah i mean its not that difficult
Also, while putting a carabiner into the chains doesn’t put FRICTION on the chain, it does (in the event of a fall), create large amounts of force on the spot where the chain meets the carabiner. This could put unnecessary wear-and-tear on the chains. As you said in the video, you don’t want to use fixed hardware for anything other than a final lower; and if you are double rope rappelling, the changing won’t see any friction at all.
How would you fall while top roping though?
@@sethkoch8001 I mean it’s no lead fall, but especially considering how dynamic a rope is, you’re putting a decent amount of force on the rope
Basically zero wear on anything. It’s made of steel. Top rope falls produce hardly any forces.
@@ZachGrayPhotography It’s still metal on metal hitting each other. Might as well minimize the wear.
@@gearaddictclimber2524 safety is much more important than wear. It’s a few bucks to replace chains. Donate to your local crag, teach safe technique and use best practices.
My AMGA guide and these ones are teaching this is a common practice method just as they’ve now changed the AMGA and Alpine Associations recommendation on repelling from sport routes (to avoid it if possible) because fixed hardware is cheap and easy to replace. Lives are not. :)
It’s a very smart tactic to use this exact technique with a new climber to be able to top rope a route, and then simply unclip the biner and be lowered.
"Screw down, so you don't screw up." ;)
Those first two methods using quick draws seemed so easy. Are there any benefits to the other options?
Non-locking carabiners. That’s really just a quick and dirty solution for lowering so that the next guy can lead. Not for all-day use.
Question: Why when constructing the first long-term anchor you showed (using a single master point) did you use non-locking carabiners to connect the sling to the bolts? Why not use locking carabiners to connect the anchor to the bolts at the top? Thanks
There is no reason not to use locking carabiners there, I believe it is just a convenience measure, as it is exceptionally unlikely that those anchor biners are at risk of coming open.
There is ZERO need for locking carabiners when you have redundancy.
But why risk it? Better safe than sorry right? Is there any reason NOT to use a locking carabiner?
the bolt anchors are at the same height, if the rock has weakened longitudinal striations, wouldn't it be best to offset the anchor bolts, lets say at at a 45 degree angle from one another, thus creating more strength and a backup life-line if one breaks loose?
Why would I not want to use locking carabiners on the anchor? Wouldn't it make it more secure?
Do what makes you comfortable, I use one locker on the rope end for top rope. If the bolts are super close like in the video, I’ll just use draws. That set up loaded, is perfectly safe.
i always wondered, why dont people use lockers to clip into the anchors?
Am I missing something? Why doesn't everyone use two separate ropes?
@@craigemmert719 can't twin/half rope with a gri gri and you would still want to have 2 bolts per rope at the top and I have never seen a climb with 4 bolts at the top. Twin ropes are also not supposed to ever be in the same quickdraws or other hardware they are supposed to have 2 seperate routes up a climb like if its a twisty trad route that you can't set a straight enough rope up the climb and would be filled with z crosses and alot of friction or a really twisty sport climb
any idea about aqua climbing tech?
Hi from Australia!
Not sure if anybody gonna read this but I hope someone can answer my dilemma here:
So doubling up a 180-240cm sling using 2x bite knots at 1/3 of its length for self-adjustable distance for equal force from the 2 anchor points works the best, OK, it makes sense.
But if you don't climb the same route the entire day, perhaps just a few ascents and don't want to be carrying the long sling on you, which of the two following options is the best anchoring method for your usual 1-1,2m sling?
A) Use the same method as shown at 1:38, that is two anchor points with one figure-8 knot on the entire sling and have 2 opposite carabiners placed on two different strands of the masterpoint or
B) Use the same method as shown at the end of the video just with a single sling connection. That is hook up the single sling end on the 1st anchor point, have a bite knot at 1/3, then another knot at 2/3 and then hook up the other end on the 2nd anchor point. Then have 2 opposite sitting carabiners, each on 1 strand of the masterpoint .
Option B is also self-adjustable and uses 1 strand like option A) So why nobody talks about option B)? Any drawbacks of option B) Because to me B) appears to be a totally superior solution over option A. (Note - if used figure-8 knots on option B) instead of bite knots it'd probably the even better).
Thank you if any one of you experienced climbers can help me understand this better.
Any of these methods is safe. If you can’t see the anchor, or if it will get lots of traffic, use a locker on one side. But if a party if 2 is climbing and running up a route a few times max, and the anchor is clearly visible, then just 2 quick draws is perfectly acceptable.
Annunaki: "if you have wings, thank the LORD"
Can someone explain why you’d ever use the first two techniques if they’re not as secure as the latter ones? It shouldn’t matter if it’s you and one person climbing vs you and five people. Shouldn’t we always use the more secure setup? Thank you!
Good question!
Your anchor building should be efficient (with gear and with time). You may not have a slings and lockers, or you might have them but need them for a more crucial application (e.g. prussik for a rappel or a safety line). Furthermore, being near a cliff edge always carries risk, so it's good to be time efficient in anchor building. Nothing is quicker than two quickdraws. It's most common to top-rope off quickdraws after leading a climb, in which case your leader might be putting quickdraws on the bolts anyway (for their own safety, so as not to waste time faffing about with locking biners), and it's likely that building a more secure anchor on top of quickdraws is hazardous or impossible depending on the hardware at the anchor.
@@dzb33 gotcha,
2 non lockers is safe if it’s visible and not overly used where the anchor isn’t getting attention from seasoned climbers. If a new climber is going up, I add a locker at least to one side. I also tend to leave the last quick draw clipped as an added back up because I’m a safety nut.
Just a question, why do you use a non-locking carabiner as your anchor and not a locking one?
Top Rope anchors are a downward pull. When the anchor is loaded, nothing can “giggle”. It’s a safe set up. But do what you feel comfortable.
yes, but what about a second person which has to take back all this stuff while descending?
The two bolts in the first anchor were not linked with a chain and a closed ring or carabiner.
Pretty new to climbing but if you set up a top rope can you take off all the quick draws the lead climber used to climb up there?
yes, but in some cases you want to leave a directional in so the rope runs more cleanly or your climber can stay close to the route if they come off.
Yes. It's called 'cleaning' a route.
Could someone answer: is the 7mm cordalette quad anchor option “stronger / better” than both the sling and QuickDraw anchor method?
There is a UA-cam channel that break test these methods!
I never climbed before but I’m curious to know how they know how strong the anchors are? Are they checked or maintained at all?
CottonShot 1 Those bolts can hold the weight of a car, super strong. The rock will probably fail before the bolt. But just a quick visual check can determine if a bolt is good. If it’s all rusty and beat up, it’s probably not that safe. But if it’s new and shiny it’s probably good to go. Besides, the chances of two bolts failing is pretty low, almost non existent. And if you’re putting up the anchor, you have tons of bolts below you that you’re chipped into.
They know how strong they are by pull testing them in a lab ua-cam.com/video/Z4DZz18DpL4/v-deo.html
bolts break sometimes. thats why there are 2 bolts.
Check with local guides or local Access Fund to find out who installs and maintains the bolts. Pull test? Not on in-service bolts! Pull tests are typically to failure, and pull outward (tensile), whereas as a climbing anchor, you pull down (shear). Only the installer knows how long and what diameter and what type bolt it is, and hopefully shares that with the park or local maintainer. Pre- and post-climbing season we do a "triple T test" on bolts we professionally installed- tap on the rock for soundness, tug on the hanger for tightness, and torque (but not actually turn) with a wrench to make sure it's tight and not just held in place by mineral or salt deposits.
Answer is no, there is no way of knowing, you usually do not know who placed them or when, and you cannot inspect them more than superficially. Having said that, modern bolts very rarely fail. Plus, we always try to use at least two bolts.
If you use a dyneema sling to build an anchor what is the minimum required thickness? I have one thats 8mm but looks significantly skinnier than the ones i see used online? Thank you in advance.
Any dyneema sling on the market will be strong enough to handle the anchor types used in this video.
Thickness doesn't really mean anything. If your sling is meant for climbing then it should have a kN rating on it somewhere. 20+ is good for climbing
Good question. The German Mountain Guide Association recommends using new DYneema slings that are 10 or 11 mm.
This is great data but at the end I am confused ( 5:22 )
If the 'last person climbing' is unfamiliar with cleaning an anchor; How is the 'biner retrieved without climbing back up?
RooFx last person to climb takes off the locker and now is on the anchor there and is just lowered. Only one piece of gear needs to be taken and no adjustments made.
@@jevenator I still saw it as 'cleaning an anchor' or at least 'trimming one' so thank you for the clarification.
Noob questions...if you're planning to set up a quad, is there a reason to not use locking biners? (2:52) And is it common to set this up the quad on the ground and just clip it onto the back of your harness for the climb?
I think if you use locking biners, it is better. But non lockers are fine. And it is good to set up quad on the ground with the 2 knots before the climb, but if the 2 anchor points are not at equal level, you may need to adjust the knots when you reach the anchor.
Yes. I have a cordalette that is always in a quad. Much faster.
Non-lockers can be use if the anchors is clear of obstruction and the gates are not be pushed against the rock. Otherwise, use lockers and if in doubt, use at least one. But it is very common practice to use 2 non-lockers on the bolts.
What length was the sling on the quad anchor
I wondered too and saw that someone had already answered it: "240 CM (quad length)"
The "local" outdoor climbing area near me uses a single-point anchor system, I think I've heard the term monolithic anchor to describe them? How do you set up a top rope anchor for a single eye bolt?
you don't
Unless you like falling, I wouldn’t
Depends... In the U.S single point anchor bolts are very uncommon. Most bolts are 3/8th wedge, 5 piece or sleeve style expansion bolts that can be susceptible to corrosion / rust / loosening over time. This is why most bolted anchors have two bolts, especially if the rock quality is suspect. Single point bolt anchors are usually 1/2 or 12mm stainless steal or titanium glue in anchors that are totally sealed off from moisture and very, very strong. These are more common in Europe. These bolts have nothing mechanical that can fail and are usually in the 40-50KN range, way stronger then any of your carabiners or slings, so the bolt will not the the point of failure as long as the rock is bomber. Do some research and figure out what kind of bolts they are - they might be good enough to trust as monolithic anchors if they are designed for that purpose. If so rigging is easy, use two slings for redundancy or use one long sling doubled over and knotted into a master point. Add two opposing lockers and your done.
@@Bustercruz Great, thank you so much for a good answer to my question! The single bolt and rock it is attached to are definitely bomber, and are definitely designed to be monolithic. The angle between the anchor points would be extreme if I try to anchor to two anchor points, pushing 150 degrees at some spots. I just needed to hear the double sling part. That makes perfect sense using two slings for redundancy, not sure why I couldn't think of such a simple solution haha. Thank you very much for the help!
Hi. I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm new to this. Wouldn't be riskier to have the anchor set with one sling, rather than using two quickdraws? I mean if one of the quickdraw fails you have the other, but if the sling fails, that's all.
That's why you always see them put a knot in it in such a way that breaking any one strand or side will not lead to the anchor failing. Basically, you'll hang on the knot. Not ideal, but super good enough as redundancy.
How do you get all your gear back?
How long was the quad sling?
I've been trying to figure it out... based on what I've seen, 120cm for 8-10mm, 180cm for 10-11mm
240cm for anything wider. The one in this video looks like it may be a 480cm
What length is the sling she’s using in Quad setup? I have a 120mm and it seems too small when I tried this?
Pretty sure it's 240 cm. A 180 cm usually works fine as well.
New climber question, why use non-locking instead of locking- carabineer to the bolts?
I was done at 0:38.
Just like in the bedroom.
Why are the carabiners on the bolts non lockers instead of lockers for the top rope set up?
Elaina, material would you use if you are concerned about abrasion?
quadra?
@@KillroyX99 She said cordellete. Rope better than webbing for abrasion.
Static rope? 10mm for example ?
7 mm cord is fine. You could also use the Edelrid Aramid cord, which has a very durable sheath.
How long of a sling should i use for a quad anchor?
Try a 180 cm.
How you unclip those draws?
there are other videos about cleaning toprope anchors.
That last configuration with all the weight of the rope on the locking Carabiner puts all the stress on one bolt which is not Equalizing the anchor ?
Equalizing is critical when setting multipitch anchors where it must catch a lead fall, on top rope the forces are much smaller so equalizing is less of a concern. Of course, that relies on both bolts being bomber, which is often the case on popular TRs. I would only use this config in the situation she mentioned since it takes longer to pull the rope through the chains than it does to tie a quad.
Joe Koch, I guess it’s redundant but I’ve always equalized somewhat. But thanks for the input.
Equalization is a myth. Some degree of load sharing never hurts but not required. Get strong placements.
How long was the sling you used to tie the quad?
120cm
@@terrystrait1443 It seems to be 240cm. 120cm would be too short for the quad.
I'll second the 240 cm; quad length.
Where did those bolts come from ?
The real pro tip is carry to 2 steel lockers for the top rope. With dynemma you cut the strength in half with an over hand knot.
With any soft good, it weakens by up to 50% when there is a knot in it.
@@joeselby9504 What was that comment supposed to read?
I don't understand why the time frame a group is toprope through 2 quickdraws matters? (for having one quickdraw having 2 lockers) Either its safe for the day or its not? How is something safe for 2-3 climbers and then not for 6-7?
The two quick draws are really just for a quick lower, before pulling the rope and having the next gal lead. As such, it is perfectly safe, since the rope is weighed and cannot go anywhere. For a full day of top-roping, all kinds of things can happen. Rope movement can potentially cause carabiners to open. Even more dangerous: if somebody top-ropes and cleans the quickdraws below, they may just go on and unclip the anchor too without thinking. This is by no means a stretch, it happens! So for a full day, or with inexperienced climbers, always use locking biners.
@@johnliungman1333 I could potentually see what youre saying. With brand new climbers. But i still stand by the idea that something either is safe or it isn't. Though yeah i could see some church group kid pulling off a quickdraw off the top, cuz i mean, you never know with somekids
@@ryanwsu4 You should also consider cyclic wear on the sling. 2-3 climbers will have the sling rubbing left and right on the rock a certain amount of times. 6-7 will have twice or three times that rubbing motion. So much more wear. And at some point the sling could tear up.
How long is the dinema sling for the quad?
240 CM (quad length)
Thank you
The video she was using 240 cm. You can also use 180 cm.
I'm really curious. Why can't you just use 2 carabiners clipped into the bolted anchor points? Why the sling at all?
Good question. Because two carabiners will lie flat against the rock. This adds a lot of friction and makes nasty twisting in your rope. It's much better to have the different arms of the anchor come together at a single point.
Elaina, if you are worried about rope and carabiner life, then why not use a pulley?
Using a pulley would create a system with a lot less friction. That could make a controlled lower more difficult. Pulleys are also heavy and more expensive - the idea here is to conserve the wear and spend less money on gear, not more. This is only a concern for full time guides and instructors who put hundreds and hundreds of days on their equipment. I used to guide in a soft sandstone area and would saw 1/2 through locking carabiners used for top roping in about a month.
@@Bustercruz , thanks. After months of learning since I made this comment, I understand that the right about of fiction in the system is a good thing. I have considered this myself to also go easy on cord.
If you saw lots of wear, did you try steel carabiners?
I always avoid using dyneema in a quad as the system will be shock loaded (granted not as much as a sliding x) and dyneema doesn't stretch as much as cord or a nylon sling
Good tip. Dyneema is also not made for knots. The break strenght of a dyneema sling with an overhand knot is only a 1/10 of the original max break strenth!
@@ludwigkranzlein9893 it's not quite that weak but is is significantly weaker
@@ludwigkranzlein9893 Ludwig, I often use dyneema for quad systems, so your comment is concerning for me. Do you have a test result reference or any other reference for the 9/10 loss of strength induced by an overhand on dyneema slings? Mammut user manual mentions a loss of about 50%, which is well within what you would expect and very close to other materials - see static.mammut.com/file/User_Manual_HI-MAM-023-2.pdf or google Mammut Contact Sling 8.0 and get the manual in the bottom of the product page. Thanks for raising the issue.
@@ludwigkranzlein9893 Check out the technical notice by Petzl on their Dyneema sling. This is directly from the manufacturer that does extensive testing on their products and concludes strength is only reduced by 50% by using overhand knots leaving you with about 10kn. 10kn is still substantial, especially considering there are other force absorbing elements in the system like climbing rope, slippage of the belay, climbers bodies, harnesses, etc.
www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Anchors/technical-content-product/ST-ANNEAU
@@mikeomara9194 If you use the sling as a tether, yes. But when you use a sling in an anchor you are doubling it so the strength would be 44kn - the knot. If the knot reduces the strength by 50% then you still have a 22kn anchor.
Why were non-locking biners acceptable on most of those anchors bolts? I always thought you had to use locking carabiners on them
Good question... I would like to know why also
it's your level of comfort and the application that you are using it for, I was trained the same way,... 4 lockers, one on each hanger, and 2 for the master point opposite and opposed,... as you gain confidence you realize those biners are not moving around and the chance of them opening is very rare...most sport climbs (at crags - 1 pitch) now a days have the anchor bolts spaced equally apart that using 2 quick draws is very sufficient (&efficient) for a leader to lead a climb followed by a (less experienced) seconder on top rope who will clean it, and then you carry on to the next climb.
Just try it... do a pitch, make an anchor with 2 quick draws, then after you get lowered, flick the rope as hard as you can in many different ways to try and get the rope to unclip from the anchor or the draw to unclip from the bolt(s)
@@heli400 Good answer. As long as the carabiners are loaded (which in this situation they always would be unless someone were to climb ABOVE them), there is no potential force on the gates that would cause them to open. That is the justification for using non-lockers. Ropes don't just jump out of loaded carabiners for no reason.
Prairie Climber you aren’t answering the question. He didn’t ask if it would be acceptable to use non-locking carabiners. He asked why wouldn’t it be safer to use locking carabiners.
@@kyleyoung4974 No, he asked why were non-lockers that were placed on the bolts were acceptable for most of these anchor configurations, and then he stated he thought they always needed to be locking carabiners on the bolts, that is how I interpreted his question so I hoped I answered his question.
shouldn't that locked carabiner clip directly to the hanger rather than the fixed biner at 5:28 ?
No, you want the locker oriented perpendicular to the wall so the rope runs smoothly through it. So you want to clip the locker to a link that is oriented parallel to the wall.
I like how she couldn't say you fall to your death, they just show a skull and cross bones.
Putting that non-locker in the middle of the masterpoint seems bad since in the case of a fall, most of the load would be going on only that one non-locker. Not that I have a problem with that (the non-locker would hold any fall day and night), but if you are using 2 locking carabiners with opposing gates, you’re clearly looking for extreme safety and redundancy. And 1 non-locker receiving most of the load seems like something the AMGA would be against
The 2 lockers with opposing gates (lockers aren't really needed but reversed and opposed is) are to ensure the rope doesn't become disconnected from the biners, it's not needed for the load. When leading you clip into 1 non locking biner all the time and a lead fall has way higher forced than a top rope fall on an anchor.
@@FettkeSteve then by that logic, there’s no need for 2 lockers to be used to keep then rope from uncoupling since we fall on a single non-locker when leading all the time. It just doesn’t make much sense to have 2 lockers there just to make sure the rope doesn’t detach; it’s overkill.
One suggestion to add to the beginning of the video, or creating its own video: "Before setting up your anchor ALWAYS check the fixed gear. Not all areas are maintained and maybe in need of repair." Sometimes something looks bad, but isn't and vice-versa.
Interesting Elaina said not to top rope off of fixed gear in the begging and then it is stated at the end; but at the end an anchor is shown with a carabiner attached to the chains and the rope going through the chains and the carabiner. Wouldn't this be the same as top roping off of fixed gear. Also, aren't some chains used a softer metal and can "stretch" over time with lots of use. So, isn't it best to treat chains like mussy hooks and not top rope off them at all? One would think it would be better to top rope off of a mussy hook before top roping off of chains (more material on the mussy hook to have to go through). What about places that use shuts?
Your aluminum carabiners will snap wayyy before a super old rusty mild steel 5/16 or larger chain
When you put the biner in the fixed gear, the rope weight is on the biner, not the gear so it preserves the gear.
I am not a climber but find this stuff interesting and would like to know if your life depends on it, why have a method that is more secure than another and not just used the MOST secure method every time?
pgreenx sometimes it can be a matter of how much gear a climber has on them. If you have two draws and no double length sling, then you would use the first method. If you don't have locking biners in your rack, then you can't use locking biners. It can come down to weight. A locking biner is sometimes double that of a wiregate.
As was said in the video too, it can also be a matter of flexibility and how long you will use the anchor. If your doing the one pitch all day then the quad is good because it allows you to move wider along the same pitch. The double draw method doesn't have as much horizontal width as one anchor will take more weight than the other.
Each piece of gear is rated for a lot of force. I mean a lot. Slings can be 22kn and some biners are 28kn. This is about 2000kg+ of force.
Each anchor type is safe, but yes using a locking biner can make it more secure if there is a chance that something might open the gate.
I hope this helps out and answers your inquiry.
@@natesantadrummer6917 Yes - very helpful and thank you. I'll stick to my backpacking and day hiking trips though.....
@@pgreenx Hiking is deadly, too. Climbing is about 1.3 times worse, which isn't much different.
Amount of gear needed, speed to set it up, etc. We could use five bolts and make all the gear from superthick steel. But that would be inconvenient.
Screw the gates down, so you don't screw up.
Do people really use the first method and top rope on non locking carabiners ?
I did this past week, with the reasoning being the next climber was top roping up to clean the anchor and then we were finished. Not recommended for extended use
@@charliepainchaud780 Thanks for your answer. I get the idea that you set up something quick and less secure if you are only going to use it for a little while. But I still think there is some flaw in that reasoning: It's like using your seatbelt only for long drives. I want to set up something that is safe regardless of the time I'm going to use it. But probably that first method is already very safe if you use two quickdraws opposite each other. It's also a bit different if someone just lead the pitch and there are quickdraws all along the route as a backup or if you are just setting up a top rope from above for some reason.
Florentin Goyens also- I had literally just come from the gear store where I purchased the draws. So there was no wear & tear, plus draws were opposing, and (for us) it was a warm up 5.8 route where a fall wasn’t even possible. I work in the emergency preparedness market and I never skimp on safety, it was just because my second was top roping up and cleaning and we were finished. I like your seatbelt analogy though!
My friends and I have been climbing for about 5 years and we use two non-locking quickdraws opposite opposed for 95% of the climbs we do outside. Not once have I ever seen the draws clip out of the hangers or have the rope slip out of the draws or any other error.
I agree in general it would be a safe practice to use at least one locking quickdraws, but it's very very unlikely for a loaded quickdraw to suddenly have a catostropic failure and slip out somehow
That system has never failed in the history of Climbing. It is perfectly safe.
The CLOVE HITCH is the Most Efficient, Strongest, Safest, and Fastest way to tie into the Anchor Points and the Master Point on all anchors!!! Refer to Brent Peters "Clove Hitch for Anchors" video
Clove hitch is great for multiptich anchors, not a good choice for top rope anchors.
So...you can tie a knot on a Dyneema sling... make up your mind! can or you cannot tie knots on them?
Great question! Ill give a brief answer and let the more seasoned AMGA guides who run this account give a more thorough reply. From my trainings, the issues with knots in dyneema surround the reductions in strength. If you are using a single dyneema sling as your tether (not recommended), and you add a knot, you decrease the strength of the sling and greatly increase the possibility that a fall of only a few feet can break the sling (because it is so static). In the "quad" shown here they have doubled the sling and therefore each leg of the anchor can manage 4 x 22 kN of force (88 kN minus the strength reduction from the knot). Having 88 kN of strength on each leg of your anchor is wildly more strength than is necessary to protect the toprope! Even if the strength reduction is as much as 40%, your anchor is still phenomenally strong.
Perfect, thanks for the tip!
@@MrJoebass702 how do you get 88kn on each leg? I don't think your math is right. It would be total not on each leg.
Great video and fantastic info however at 5:20: If the lead realises that all the force is taken now by ONE anchor point (once that Krab is inserted as shown) and no longer the two (anchor points). If there are two anchor points better to use them for the redundancy they offer (assuming or knowing they are good BP placements). The bolt placements here look to be over fractured rock. Those hangers look like Petzl coeur's so they are rated at 25KN, that Maillon looking thing? and the Krab, yeah probably around the same KN rating. However in this scenario shown it appears there will be a sideways torquing on the RHS bolt hanger and not the intended downward force as the anchors were installed and intended. (I know they have the three anti-rotation knobs for want of a better word -but this is not granite or basalt but sandstone). The angle (unless incorrectly installed) of the chains should not be changed for any misdirection as apposed to redirection of downward forces, especially in this case as the two (Petzl) hangers are the same. I know this is just a top rope but still best to utilize fully both anchor points in this case I feel. Just a comment and each to their own when it comes to this stuff.
You still have redundancy, if the locker fails then the chains will take the weight with little extension. Since it's TR on a dynamic rope, personally I wouldn't care about equalization as the bolts look bomber and should not see more than a few times body weight.
Stop over thinking it. Those 8mm Maillon hold 6k pounds, same for the chain. Equalization is a Myth and everything in that system could hold 10 people and they will all break before anything in that anchor.
Using stainless steel instead of aluminum carabiners on the rope is much better.
Why using a sling is more safe than two quickdraws? I have the illusion that the quickdraw approach is safer because if somehow one quikdraw fails, you have the second one. If the sling fails, you have nothing. xD
I like the video, but she was building the anchor without clipping in for protection which would make it very difficult to get the anchor's carabiners under the chain linkage. As a novice lead climber, you just confused me. It would be more realistic for you to climb up and protect yourself first, then build the anchor.
Climb up, put a quick draw on one bolt, and clip the rope into it. Then build any of the options shown. For the first two options just add the other quickdraw. If it's not one of the first two that uses the quickdraw, then just stand up to unweight the quickdraw and put another biner under it. After the anchor is complete clip the rope into the reversed opposed biners, double check that you did it correctly, and unclip the quickdraw.
@@FettkeSteve thanks for the reply and tips.
3:49 NO! Clip those carabiners through 3 strands, not 2 as shown in this video. If those 2 strands belong to the same half of the sling, then in case the sling is upclipped on one bolt, your only protector is the overhand knot. If the knot fails, both carabiners will fly out of the sling and you are in the air.
Those anchors seem flimsily thin sheet metal!
They are rated to more than 20 kN.
how was she setting up those anchors? just standing on a ledge?
That idea of clipping a carabiner through the knot to make it easier to undo seems a bit suss. If one leg of that anchor fails, you'll be hanging from that knot. Do you really want a carabiner in there preventing it from tightening 😬
I’ve never understood the idea and truely disagree with using a lockers in one connection and not the other.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, the bottom biner is just as likely to unclip or cross load as the top one.
Your bottom locker won’t mean much when your non locker above fails
Agree fully. Where I climb, a toprope with non-lockers would be a no-no, and you certainly would not teach it to beginners.
Beautiful woman
You need to get out more.
CLOVE HITCH at the anchor points and the master point for the most Safest, Strongest, Fastest, and Efficient Anchor!!! Refer to American Mountain Guides Association Brent Peters "Clove Hitch for Anchors" you tube videos !!
Dyneema is more abrasion resistant than nylon.
the strands while doubled up and under load could rub against eachother and heat up maybe? it has a really low melting point. dyneema is known to cut through itself sometimes because of this.
@@Robin-xe4yz No I think not. She is just saying these things because she has no real clue about the materials properties.
Robin
Cut through itself ?
Says who? Source?
Never!
Uh...no nylon is moreabrasion resistant
@@chocolatedumdum2 uh... wrong
If I and my climbing partner are just climbing the route once I would just use the mussey hooks in this case. Nice demo tho. I disagree that top roping on a mussey hook is not acceptable practice however. Whenever you lower off, you are applying *weighted* friction to the system, which produces far more friction and material wear than taking in slack on a top rope. Remember, when top roping, the rope is not going to be moving much while also under weight. This drastically reduces the wear of the hooks in comparison to lowering off. So if its okay to lower off, then top-roping isnt going to accelerate wear that much.
Version 1) insecure and only valid if you do not toprope on it.
Version 2) the upper locking carabine should be turned by 180 degrees so the srew is turned shut in the direction of gravity.
Version 3) what the heck? in the master point you use 2 (???) locking carabine, but at the rock you use open ones???
I am happy to have had some very in-depth discussion and testing with my trainers about how to set-up anchors in a save way for a whole course-day to be top-roped on. Wouldn't trust most parts of the content of this video an inch.
chaosengine is incorrect. All of these anchors are very common practice in single pitch rock climbing. They do offer a variety of security for different situations. Even the lowest security configuration is very secure - in normal top roping or lowering situations the rope is under some tension. Ropes don't just magically jump out of carabiners.
This video was produced my the AMGA which is the premier guide's association in the U.S. and the only organization in the U.S. recognized internationally by the IFMGA and UIAA. There is no source for technical climbing content that is more heavily vetted or backed up by testing then this.
@@Bustercruz I appreciate your answer. Where I was certified, trainers have to use at least one closed system (i.e. locking carabine). Answering to the argument "don't just magically..." there is a series of books one could say serve as standard - unfortunately they are only available in German ("Sicherheit in Fels und Eis Band I-III", Pit Schubert). The author analyses tons of accidents and yes, they can "magically jump out".