Love the analysis at the start at the comparisment between how a being like Xera and Elune speaks. Was really waiting for your analysis on this one, checked out belular as well, and some arguments/comments: 13:30 Elune not being responsible for the burning. I agree and don't believe that's the story they want to tell, but the cutscene does not shoot down the idea because of how vague it is. 'In the wake of tragedy' does not mean she didn't cause the tragedy. "Even in this dark hour, they would say, Elune still watches over us. And that was almost certainly true, wasn’t it? Elune had intervened. Perhaps she had even stayed Saurfang’s killing blow." 15:50 SPOILERS Next week you'll find out that the Archon and others close to her were aware of the drought and kept their mouth shut. Kalisthene: "My orders were to keep the aspirants training, to bide our time until the drought passed. I was not to tell them that every single soul was sent straight to the maw, that the shadowlands had broken down." Still fair to say that Elune wasn't aware of this. She just knew there was a drought and send souls to help without questioning why there was a drought. Don't blame Elune for that, gods can be dumb... but why are the night elves oke with this? 23:30 That's a big self insert on the level of Sylvanas passed the kill of Malfurion to Saurfang to test his loyalty. This is a Tyrande that told thrall 'don't talk to me until you bring me the banshee's head to I'm jumping in the maw to you go save the spirits of our people, i'm on the hunt to I'm here banshee queen, time for revenge. I'm ready to trade my life for yours. But somewhere in between, in her mind without showing any sign of it she figured ehhhhh nevermind?! There's a chapter of storytelling missing for the night warrior where she flows into forgiveness making this 'choice' fall flat on its face + no recognition for what Elune did or didn't do for the night elves.
My thought was that her choice meant holding onto Elune's power to continue to seek revenge, or let it go in order to allow Elune and the Winter Queen to work together to save the rest of the night elves souls. And the presumably, the latter seemed like a more worthwhile pursuit to Tyrande. Maybe. I do agree that the whole thing was too vague. After all, people are clearly having different understandings here. That is a problem.
Big agree on this. What I find very lacking in this entire storyline is insight into Tyrande's thought process and reasoning. I want to know why she chose renewal when she was so hell bent on vengeance before. Would also be great to see both Tyrande and other Night Elven characters like Shandris have some proper dialogue about Elune and what they mean to her in the wake of all this - the brief dialogue that is had afterwards don't really say much about what they are thinking other than "her voice was beautiful" and "we were both sad".
YES Nobbel thank you. I agree with all your comments. I wish they would have handled this story with a bit more grace, time, and forward planning. Tyrande went from super-sayan flying at Sylvanas for the kill to "meh, let's choose forgiveness" in the blink of an eye. That was a fumble, in my opinion. I love the WoW story, i love the writers, I'm sure Christie's Sylvanas book is going to be excellent. But I'm just a little disappointed and tired of all the unanswered questions / expectations being subverted.
Love to see the lore invested youtubers bash heads! Don't mean that negativly. Hope Tali makes a reply to this. You both are so deeply invested in the lore so its interesting watch two different people on it than everyone being more focused on the shot show going on these days and claiming because of it, everything related to blizz is trash.
I think with the revenge is like when you seek something in real life and until you don't have it you look for it and seek it. Then you receive what you wanted and it becomes irrelevant really fast. It doesn't have to be big relevation, but something just deep inside which just told her basically "killing sylvanas won't bring you peace"
one of my boomkin guildies pulled a 4.66 MILLION starsurge in Torghast recently O_O (I wasn't there so no idea every power that went into that). Apparently he deleted the Adamant Vaults boss so effectively it took the game several seconds to realize the boss was dead XD
As taliesan said the link of elune involved in the great cycle and eonar holding a 'piece' of the realms of life through the emeral dream my mind hit a very interesting thought. Is elune the world soul?
In the German Version, elune does not take credibility of the burning. But for the sending(not preventing) the souls to the shadowland. Edit: Should have waited 20 sec for your explanation xD. its 100% right
She also doesn't take credit for the genocide in the english. "In the wake of tragedy, I sent forth cascade of souls.", the meaning is simple, she knew her people had been massacred and decided to send their souls to Ardenweald. And before you ask why she did not stop it, she is a goddess, not some trash picker. Also, she actually said "in the wake of a tragedy", the subtitles are wrong. That 'a' makes a lot of difference.
I got the feeling the German synchronization is generally a lot more clear, or at least less ambiguous. In the raid cinematic for example, Sylvanas says: „I will never serve AGAIN“ which makes a whole lot more sense.
Elune said "She must choose." not "She had to choose.", meaning Tyrande hasn't made a choice yet. So she didn't spare Sylvanas willingly. Hence the "My life for hers." and "Mother Moon, do not forsake me. End this." lines.
Tyrande clearly chose vengeance in that moment, so the sudden shift to renewal just feels like a retcon. Honestly, I'm disappointed in Tali for saying that perspective is "incurious".
@@karlrassmann4604 Or maybe, just maybe, she had a moment of overheating where she used up too much power and her body couldn't handle it, so her body tried to contain in and once she reached her limit it went berserk.
@@wardzer I don't know if that's exactly it, but it does sound like Elune's power is invoked only for a specific purpose (the Stonewright for revenge and let it get away from her, for example). Since Tyrande hadn't made up her mind about which she wanted Elune for more, perhaps Elune was powerless to assist her in one of those options.
im starting to get the feeling a LOT of people really mean "write the story like im 5" when they say that the writing is bad... I cant imagine coming to the conclusion that Elune made the world tree event happen...wut lol
I agree. People only read what they want to read aka they search for things to pick on at this point. I’m always happy Tali still appreciates and discusses the lore.
Agreed. It's just an angry mob that wants to be angry and since it's a rather vocal group of people - they just perceive their haphazard views as truth.
In this case, to be fair, the momentousness of Elune's declaration makes it easy to overlook the conditioning sentence, "in the wake of tragedy". I got this idea the first time I watched it, but realised that was not it the second time around.
Yes! THANK YOU! I was worried if this video would come at all, considering everything that's going on. Talie's "translations" (as I call 'em) make understanding WoW lore so much easier and more enjoyable to me.
Some might consider that a problem with the writing, especially since a lot of what he says in the video is just his inference, interpretation, or speculation.
and thats how you know that the lore is so poorly portrayed - that you need youtubers that know the devs to explain what they should have explained through their cinematics. When u dont understand what's happening, are confused or "would understand anything about the lore" as u put it, you know its being put forth in a terrible way. They COULD make it clearer, but they like the arbitrary discussion it creates on the internet and prefer that over good story telling
also, unless I'm wrong, invoking the Night Warrior is about vengeance. The type of people that go to the Kyrian would not be about taking vengeance but getting justice.
@@NinjaFlibble Not all Night Warriors have such a negative motivation determine their paths. Talk to Thiernax again on your Night Fae toons, and he will remark not how he was wrong with his choice or what he did with Elune's power, but ruing insteaed the fact that sharing the burden with Qadarin cost his husband's life as well. So they don't all burn out on their quest for vengeance. I think that a Night Warrior could very well make the unthinkable choice of invoking Elune for purely selfless reasons, and be spent in their quest for justice knowing full well and embracing the destiny that was set for them, uncorrupted in their purpose. Such a Night Warrior might well go to Bastion. But on arriving, they would still be encouraged to purge their memories as happens to all Kyrians.
@@NinjaFlibble That is explicitly wrong. The Night Warrior is the aspect of justice and vengeance can be justice. These two things are not mutually exclusive. Vindication, retribution, these are asll ways that peace of mind can be achieved, which are all part of Elune's whole shtique; Knowing when to fight, knowing when to die fighting, knowing when the live to fight another day and knowing when to live to live in peace. Sylvanas murdered uncountable innocents. Her death is justice for the night elves and I don't think you can deny that. The difference between justice and vengeance often seems arbitrary in this setting; The only difference is the presentation and window dressing most of the time.
I don't think a person not remember they're a night warrior wouldn't matter, they don't have to know for someone else to know, it just makes them a little useless without the knowledge that they were so why bother going there
I don't. If she had killed Sylvanas during the battle for Ardenweald, there's a good chance the Jailer's attack on the Arbiter would have failed, preventing a massive risk to all life in the universe. I get that he had questionable motivations, but trading her life to remove the threat of Sylvanas was absolutely the correct choice for her to make from a strategic standpoint.
"The Winter Queen is bound to *her* counterpart in the realms of life." So others have counterparts too I guess. I wonder which one Zovaal wants to off, his own or Elune.
I'm not really sure there's a solid basis for that conclusion. Ardenweald's main purpose is facilitating the renewal of its inhabitants, sometimes literally renewing them back into the realm of life. As Sean mentioned, it is a component of a cycle. No other covenant of the Shadowlands exists as part of a cycle in the same way. In fact, every other covenant's primary focus lies in assisting souls to find their new place within the realm of death by accepting (Necrolord), atoning for (Venthyr), or letting go of (Kyrian) their path in life. No covenant but Ardenweald creates a loop which feeds back to life.
I am glad that even though Elune was using Tyrande as a vessel to communicate with her sister, the voice was not Tyrande's but her own. Ok after hearing it a little more, it does sound like it's a combination of Tyrande's voice and Elune's. So possibly two different voice actresses.
@Nathan Taffijn The vast majority of voice actors are not vocal chameleons like Mel Blanc or the few other names we all know. Most who alter their voices for rroles are still quite recognizable as the same people.
In the german version at least i can tell it's Tyrandes Voice with a fancy filter over it to symbolize that Elune is speaking through her- so idk :shrug:
So Tyrande decided not to take her vengeance when it was in her hand? She went from unreasonably, earth shatteringly 'Im jumping head first into the maw, blowing open the doors of Thorghast and slaughtering everything in my path to get to Sylvanas' to 'Deep down I forgive you, I won't kill you' That seems like a HUGE and MASSIVE leap with no build up or foreshadowing. At what point did Tyrande look like she might forgive Sylvanas?
This just seems like nonsense to me What would have happened if Sylvanas didn't decide to burn Teldrassil? Would Elune not send any help to the Winter Queen? It's not a very good story if its strung along by a series of happy accidents.
I think the existing soul wisps( few when comparing it to the cascade after the burning) would mysteriously dissapear, and no one will know the answer.. till now
@Episode Update except it is already established that only wild gods and loa and reborn there. the night elves souls would have been nothing more then an fuel for the winter queen. this does not stop the fact that elune did not even look into what was going on at all, and blindly tossed them to the shadowlands when she already knew they were not getting souls in the first place.
See, this is why I like these cinematic analysis with Taliesin. No knee-jerk responses, but well-crafted analysis that actually dives into all the lore factors, and analyzing of what's actually said. Naturally, Blizzard is messing up badly by making the plot so vague. It shouldn't be a puzzle to get the right understanding. But I'm glad at least this channel is putting it out there. Thanks!
Love you, Tali, but that explanation for why Elune left Tyrande during the fight against Sylvanas is a huge stretch. In fact, that cinematic tries to express the opposite. The entire cinematic with that fight hammers the idea that Tyrande wants Sylvanas dead, and it at no point implies that she has second thoughts. Even her cry to Elune to "end this" shows a desperation to have her vengeance, as if she doesn't even see renewal without vengeance as a possibility. If the cinematic was supposed to leave us with doubts about Tyrande's desire for vengeance, it failed. You COULD be right about Tyrande having chosen renewal at that point, but with the lack of clear motivation they've given it'd almost feel like a retcon. I'd honestly chalk it up to poor storytelling creating a rift between a character's motivation and what the audience can perceive. And with this lack of clarity, it's kind of mean spirited to call people incurious for not seeing your perspective. Still love ya and support the channel :) Edit: Someone in the comments brought up how the phrase "She must choose" shows us that Tyrande had not yet chosen. Therefore such a choice cannot be the reason why Elune's power faded.
Maybe that's the reason Elune's power faded, Tyrande has not made a choice yet, if she was 100% sure she wanted vengeance, maybe Elune would have allowed her to kill Sylvanas, but it seems Tyrande was still conflicted?!? Maybe the quest line with Shandris had her doubt her quest for vengeance?
@@remuscroitoriu4810 I could see this being the case, which is why I say Tali COULD be right. However, a story only has as much meaning as what is perceived. The last cinematic made it clear Tyrande was 110% on board vengeance. If the writers believed she had any kind of conflict, they failed to show it to us. Again, it's totally possible Tali is right. However, if he is, that means the writers failed to set up that narrative.
@@karlrassmann4604 I agree, sometimes it seems they just change things during the development of the story, and at the same time they go out of their way to make it as cryptic as possible, but thank God we have Tali. I hope he never ceases to do these lore videos, regardless of what happens with blizz. You cannot find someone better and more enthusiastic out there than him, when it comes to wow lore
Well said Kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl. I agree, that was kind of a stretch. In the cinematic itself, it seems ALL of Tyrande's attacks are attempted killing blows, lots of head lobbers. That's not the actions of someone on the fence about renewal, that's the actions of someone hellbent on murdering.
When Tyrande speaks to Shandris, they were both overtaken with emotion on being that close to their goddess. This was a spiritual moment for them. Another thing catching my eye was before and after speaking to available NPCs, things similar to the old gods were mentioned A LOT. Thiernax & Qadarin especially. Plus we left that lovely void seed in the Emerald Dream back in Legion.
I haven't played for little bit more than a year now, won't do so even less with all that is going on, but I'm always glad to be following the story alongside this channel, you guys keep my love for this universe alive, thank you!
Same I quit wow after Legion. I personally I feel like I can't justify paying $60 for the expansion than give them another $15 to keep playing. It's like buying a toy and than you have to pay Mattel money to play with it every day.
@@boneshaman8912 60$ and then 15$ per month or 155.88$ per year. Make the expansion cycle 2 years and we paid 371.76$ for an expansion that provided less than Witcher 3 Hearts of Stone dlc...
I like his analysis and there are few things he didn't really delve into deeply cause if he did it would kinda go against his stated facts. I do agree with you though. Seems as if this time he didn't pay attention to the words used lol
@@bastalam Yeah, Elune says Tyrande "must" choose, which implies the decision hasn't been made yet. Saying that it has been chosen already is... an odd interpretation.
She said "my life for hers" immediately before she failed to kill Sylvanas with her super sayian powers. The Night Warrior's power was not enough. It is limited, because it is wielded by a mortal and because Elune herself is not almighty. So pay attention to the words and to what the cinematic tells you.
this also explains the weird repeatable quest we kept getting as night fae to go and collect more and more of the night elf souls from the maw (different to the torghast souls) its a shame those quests were just weirdly floating out there with nothing going on
I think a lot of player anger can also be explained by the fact that non-Nightfae actually get no info about all this whatsoever until this questline and cinematic because our queslines before that actually delivered zero info about any of this.
@@HH-hd7nd That's something that is quite striking. Some content is so fundational (like the Bolvar quests to rescue our leaders from Torghast) that should be overarching regardless of Covenant choice. I think this bit should be part of it (up to and including Ysera's requests for night elf souls from the Maw), and I really think Ardenweald's campaign as a whole would have benefitted from it. Each zone's pre-covenant choice questline sets up an enemy that is sommehow connected to the Maw and the Jailer, but the only zone where that enemy goes nowhere is Ardenwewald. When playing through the Ardenweald covenant campaign, the lack of focus is really glaring and in the end, the only plot point explored during that campaign that does not get a satisfactory resolution is the Drust subplot, when it should have been the main focus in my opinion
@@HH-hd7nd Remains to be seen, but with the way the Ardenweald campaign was written, the "resolution" of the Drust arc was quite unsatisfying. And it's especially annoying because it is the object of the final chapter on said campaign. Of all the servants of the Jailer (the Forsworn of Lysonia and Devos, the traitors from Maldraxxus, and Denathrius' Venthyr followers), there is for instance a representation in Torghast, with one wing (Coldheart Interstitia for the Forsworn/Mawsworn Kyrians, Upper Reaches for Venthyr and Fracture Chambers for the Maldraxxi) and plenty of mobs. Not so for the Drust. I'm left with a feeling that the Drust were just filler content, which makes it wasted potential for a threat that has such profound and interesting lore, up to par with Mueh'zala and Helya if you ask me.
@@moscanaveia I'm actually not sure if the Drust really are servants of the Jailer or if they merely cooperated with him because they where sharing a common goal. However if they are indeed his servants and if we are going to Thros at some point the reason might well be that they are saving the Drust for another story arc. It's also absolutely possible that they where indeed filler content. Only time will tell.
You can get to a thirty minute video by watching tthe cinematic and knowing the lore that led up to this point. That a simple few-minutes cinematic can yield thirty minutes of discussion and delving deep, that means the cinematic is good, and not bad.
There’s a piece of dialogue in the Heart Of the Forest after this. Tyrande speaks to a night elf soul, and in it mentions elunes power did not leave her, implying she still has the power of the night warrior.
TLDR: I waste my time typing this shit and I don't really care at the end. Not buying the whole, Elune couldn't save her people. I'm still of the opinion that this is lazy writing still because there are things that don't have to do with Elune that don't make an ounce of sense. Elune had the ability to intervene, if I'm not mistaken, she puts everyone in Teldrassil to sleep so that they don't feel the pain. Why couldn't she just douse the flames or put some protective barrier that stops the fire, etc.? If Night Elf souls normally become wisps because of Elune's interference and Sylvanas attacked Teldrassil for the souls to go to the Maw shouldn't the Jailor have known that night elf souls never go to the Maw therefore making the attack on it useless? You're telling, that as an Eternal One, your lands are in a drought and you don't go to the source to find out why? We've seen that they can project themselves to the Arbiter's location and talk with one another, did none of them try to check in with Oribos to see wtf was happening? Did I miss this explanation in the quest line? In regards to Tyrande choosing deep down to not take vengeance on Sylvanas, I won't buy into that either until it's stated by the writer, in game, in a book or wherever else things like these become official. Until then, you're saying what you want to believe is true but from what we see and what we get, we have to come up with our own dots that connect the story to make sense of it, which in my opinion is lazy. The counterpart of the winter queen part that you brought up can make sense but again like I mentioned before, creating our own dots to connect the story until the writers have time to make up the next scene is lazy. This should all be though of already and we shouldn't need to come up with head cannon in order for it to make sense to us. I know this is all theory but you have to admit that looking at it from a high level, the story is getting lazy if you just use the same thought process that's being used in the other parts story. Making a broker explain what the Titans mean by "Ordered" only to fit their "non retcon" writing is lazy and annoying. They weren't able to connect older stories with the new story and now they want to change things so that it ends up looking good again because they lost track somewhere along the lines.
The answer to the first question is literally part of the cinematic. She could have but chose to help her sister instead. Theres no evidence that the jailer new that or even that he told sylvannas more than just gather souls which she did completely unaware. Going to be honest. Calling open-ended explanations lazy writings is just lazy loremanship. or lorewormanship if have you. Open-ended answers like these leave people wanting for more. Questions get answered but more questions arise. It's actually a mark of really good storytelling when done right. And I think the writers of the wow story do a great job personally.
Im so confused that people ok with this, basicaly its saying something like: I watched how he stabbed her for 20 minutes, im sorry, i didnt want to shoot my gun that i pointed at him. And yes its litteraly it, Elune cound buff someone to stop sylvana or magic plothole barier like bloodelves have, or DONT PUT THEM ASLEEP, its so bad to think about it, in a context that there is no more gods basicaly, after this ELUNE should be raidboss where you get your JUSTICE. Im so.......confused that people ok with it.......elune did holocost...........just WoW
Interesting, I felt like it was the complete opposite: Elune is the elder sibling which is why the Winter Queen had the expectation that Elune could and would help. The way she asked "Hey, where were you when I needed help?" and the genuine hurt in her voice sounded to me more like a younger sibling who is wondering why there older sister who has always been there for them suddenly wasn't there when they needed them most.
@@cassandramuller7337 this makes sense also. I do tend to be on the scolding side more times than not as the older one. We are all adults (I’m 35 lol) but to me they still do “dumb shit”.
Don't forget Xalatath call Elune the "upstart goddess" implying they have more knowledge of her than we currently do possibly tying to your comment about Elune and galactic war. Secondly, I personally hope that the events surrounding Blizzard currently does not cause you to stop making content that's enjoyed by us, about a game I think some of us still enjoy playing.
If Blitzchung and the Hong Kong incident didn't make them stop or even pause then why would this? What they have went through is FAR worse than any Bliz employee. Tali just loves his soap box, ya know.
@@KM-fm9ms if blitzchung made you stop using blizz products you also would need to stop using apple, google and microsoft products who all cooperate the same way with the chinese goverment and tailor their products to their wishes.
What I get from that starting line is that Winter Queen is adressing someone far above her, they pleaded for her to aid them, it's like talking to her superior but knowing that Elune won't get angry with her/strike her down. Elune restored heart of forest and sigil, that is the power she has
Really enjoy your break down of the lore and even though I cancelled my sub for the first time in 17 years (yes 17) I still love the lore. I know you've a lot of thinking to do about your content going forward but just want to know you're appreciated.
The cinematic looked cool, but then basically every cinematic the team makes is good, and the score was seriously on point too. You make some great points that shut down a lot of complaints people had about this cinematic, but one concern I've heard (and kind of agree with) is that if Tyrande chooses renewal then it increases the odds of Sylvanas getting a redemption arc. For me, personally, at this point the worst part about Sylvanas getting a redemption arc is that it would feel incredibly lazy and predictable.
Sylvanas died defending her people and her soul was torn from her leaving only the vengeful banshee we know her as today. Why would redemption be lazy writing if her entire character revolves around her soul / true self being stripped from her?
@@Montenegro651 My bad, lazy was a poorly chosen word. I think that a redemption arc for Sylvanas has to be handled very gently and I am concerned that it ultimately will end up being unsatisfying. But your point about the soul split in twain is a good one, but it adds to the evidence that Blizzard are going to try and redeem Sylvanas, "She isn't to blame for the genocide, her soul wasn't whole at the time." Coupled with Tyrande being given the explicit choice between vengeance and renewal is something of a Chekov's Gun: you don't mention it unless you intend to tread the alternative path. At worst a Sylvanas redemption will look and sound a lot like the end of Warlords of Draenor ("Draenor is free!"), at best will be very satisfying, and is most likely to simply be decidedly average whilst robbing many players of their cathartic moment of justice for the many crimes and sins that can be heaped at her feet; complete soul or no.
@@KountKristyl I expect it to end up being unsatisfying. Anything else would be a welcomed surprise. 😔 Also, badass response man. I’m an anonymous voice in the ether and you still took your time to clarify and even be polite. Thank you for that. Just so you know, we are on the same page and I am in agreeance with your point. Many want retribution and it looks more and more like they won’t get it. I wonder if it’s possible to have both. Although, forgiveness and vengeance don’t get along well. If anything, this will be a great opportunity for the writers to showcase their skill.
I still think the idea of anima (AKA Soylent Green) is not a good thing for this game. No matter how you spin it it's a tad horrific. Elune was like "Well they're going to die so might as well send some fertilizer to my sister." 😳
Not really. It's just an energy created from all your experiences in life. It doesn't destroy your soul when it is extracted. This has been shown/explained numerous times.
Everybody: shits all about the story + its delivery Taliesin: to fully appreciate the cinematic we need to look at the covenant campaign quests that take A SOLID HOUR to complete "big enthusiatic smile"
My opinion is that the story is actually quite decent if one's expectation is not to be handed on a silver platter the meaning and implications of each event, how the characters feel about them, how the *player* ought to feel about them, but rather to have something where going more in depth, piecing together information from multiple sources is an intended part of the experience. Then again, this is evidently not what most people expect, and many things are down to personal preferences anyway (also, the overall negative sentiment surrounding WoW / Blizzard clearly affects the reception of everything regardless of the particulars).
@@Kyrrua_ You don't actually need to go in depth to understand the basics though, you just need to read more than every second word... Many of the things people complain about are really supremely obvious if one gives them the tiniest bit of thought. Going further in depth is useful for a *deeper* understanding and full appreciation, but not strictly *required*. If the sentence "In the wake of tragedy, I sent forth the cascase of souls." makes one think that Elune is saying she actively caused the burning of Teldrassil, the fault does not lie with the writers in that. That aside, we clearly have different expectations of what cinematics ought to do. Cinematics, movies, storylines, art in general can have the purpose of making one think about them, rather than spoonfeeding the audience.
@@Kyrrua_ You really don't need to go in deep... but it seems for most people you need... maybe because those people don't give a shit and don't even play the game...
Nice, I didn't even pick up on the fact that Tyrande was the one to pull back from killing Sylvanas at the last second like that. That makes more sense than Elune doing it. TY
kotick would be prime fuel for revendreth. so much pride, greed an avarice...this would overshadow even garrosh hellscream this scandal should not be forgotten or forgiven, there must be an attonement
I just love how you two make videos like these. Your attention to detail, your infectious enthusiasm and your way with words. I don't really follow WoW content and haven't been for many years, but every so often come back to your channels for morsels like this.
Wait wait wait, you used the past tense part for the teldrassil thing and I agree, Elune obviously didn't fucking orchestrate the slaughter of the night elves - but then you ignore the future tense of 'she must choose' and imply she already chose. I don't actually buy that, unfortunately. The text IS pretty clear that she hasn't chosen yet. So it then turns the Tyrande story into a bland cycle of revenge bad, which usually I'm okay with, but the reason revenge is bad is generally because it perpetuates an endless war of hatred and revenge. In Sylvanas's case, well, the whole Horde (minus the Sylvanas loyalist side which as far as I'm aware has no more writing in Shadowlands anyway) and the whole Alliance want her head. The Jailer clearly doesn't care about her well being (obviously) and let's be real, what she's done is absolutely heinous enough that it deserves retribution. Basically, no parties would be upset if Sylvanas would have died there. If Blizzard wants to say that going through with it while hopped up on night warrior power would have turned Tyrande into Sylvanas, well... I just don't buy that?
It could be implied that she must choose fully implying that she's torn bewteen the two options so neither was happening fully. Powering up still but in the same line not taking it to the finish. Powering down in a way but not being released from her invocation of elune's power. She could have been in mental limbo til her resolved leaned one way or another.
@@kloaf1131 That seems like a reach to me. You don't lay your life down on the line without conviction, generally, and when she did her whole DBZ jump after Team Rocket's blasting off again Sylvanas, she straight up told Elune my life for hers (it was some gibberish madeup language, but the official video has subtitles that say my life for hers) I mean, maybe you're right. But if that's the case they are really, really bad at communicating this stuff for your average player. I don't think you should need an hour of research and discussion to make sense of like, 6 minutes of cutscene.
@@alifewellwastedyt I don't think you need that long about it. But lore like this is entirely meant to spark discussion and thinking. Hand-fed lore is lazy writing.
@@alifewellwastedyt I'm thinking that Elune probably wanted Tyrande to make a choice after she saw what was at stake. Like you would hold a friend back from making a rash decision when they don't have all the information and are basically doing subsatnce abuse and are generally in a shitty place. I think Elune intervened this time and not others because the stakes are higher and she just lost a lot of her followers. If she can perhaps save one she'll try. Elune sounds like she's in a bad place emotionally. Except Tyrande wasn't ready to listen. I personally find it interesting that Tyrande chose to let go of hatred after she felt Elune's pain. She mentions that the tear was both hers and Elune's which implies she felt Elune's emotions while Elune "possessed" her. To me this sounds like Sylvanas wasn't the real problem: Tyrande felt abandoned by Elune (like the Winter Queen), she felt betrayed by the poerson she trusted with her life and the life of her people. Feeling that Elune actually felt as much pain as her allowed her to let go. Feeling (and hearing/seeing?) that Elune did the only thing she thought she could do made Tyrande forgive Elune for not preventing the tragedy at Teldrassil. That's why Tyrande chose renewal over vengeance. It wasn't about Sylvanas. It was about Elune. And part of me wonders if Elune perhaps also stopped her because she knew that Sylvanas wasn't the problem. Or perhaps it was just that the power she was invocing felt that this was not really her goal. Not because Tyrande already chose to let go of vengeance but because vengeance on Sylvanas was never really the issue. Tyrande just thought it was.
I don‘t think that Tyrande changed her mind about Sylvanas to quickly. You can be extremely angry and vengeful but still know that it is wrong somewhere deep inside your heart. And those doubts are probably enough so that she didn’t kill Sylvanas. Thank you so much for your videos!! I really love them and i wouldnt understand half of it without you :D
The anima drought was the implied tragedy, because that is what the Winter Queen was just talking about, what she was saying she needed aid for, that is what Elune was replying to. If Blizzard wanted the "Tragedy" to be the burning of teldrassil, Blizzard has entirely failed at communicating that in this dialogue.
On first experiencing this cinematic, I caught the "in the wake" bit and felt comforted in what she tried to do. However, as always, you catch all the nuances that I miss and make the cinematics more full. I so appreciate your takes on these things. Thank you!
Maybe I misunderstand their intent but I thought she was saying she sent the cascade of souls from the world tree not in a I caused the burning but in a I did save many of them since the tree was already burning and not lifting them all out of the disaster around them, even though she could have allowed more to be rescued she turned away and let it take them so the cries from Shadowlands and her sister's realm but hey how someone interpreted it is I guess up to the viewer until the writing clearly says yes or no on it from the makers of the game and that scene
I mean the obvious parallel is that Elune is the summer queen (our sun is a star), the great cycle also referring to the seasons as much as too life and death. Which would make the winter queen the naturey God of cold, darkness, and death and Elune the Naturey God of life, light and warmth, which feels pretty well conveyed here with how much colder and harder the winter queen is compared to how compassionate and emotional Elune is.
Yeah sure, ok. Tyrande killed hundreds of horde soldiers (regardless of their views on burning the tree) and mawsworn in her quest for vengeance, but when confronted with the architect of her people's doom, ONLY THEN did she "choose renewal" and let go of Elune's power. That's some hard copium you're smoking there, mate.
Im not super invested in the law, but could "in the wake of tragedy" not mean the tragedy of not enough "soul power" in ardenweald? That's how I understood it the first time I watched it.
Your theory of The Emerald Dream on Azeroth for me sounds like how Bwonsamdi has his part of Arden. As like how The Winter Queen allowed him to have his part for the Trolls sort of thing, that Elune allowed the same.
The title of this video is a clickbait... Again... Seriously, we have no idea who and what she is. We heard her talk, nothing more. You'd think you'd learn after that time you put another clickbait title and had to change but guess not...
I love how you two explain things so clearly....haven't played up to the cinematic yet and figured all this out that explaining just by watching it once.
The burning of Teldrassil feels far to egregious to be forgiven. They burned alive which is one of the most agonizing and frightening ways to perish, they feel completely abandoned and betrayed by the absence of Elune which is spiritual torment and then they get sent to the maw where a lot of them were twisted into abominations, writhing in agony until Tyrande can only spare them by literally sending them into oblivion. About 3 years go by real time and we get Tyrande finally coming into Shadowlands claiming long awaited retribution in my favorite cinematic moments ever with Nathanos and then at long last Sylvanas. It was so hype seeing Tyrande shatter Sylvanas' chains like finally someone that can actually challenge her after Sylvanas has essentially been Omni-man for too long but and even when Sylvanas tries to fly away Tyrande gives her a straight up "No." which felt so incredible but then when Tyrande is at the moment of justice Sylvanas just does the same thing yet again, overpowers Tyrande, gives another snide line and does her trademark puffing into smoke and gets away. I think the gripe I have with the new cinematic isn't anything directly with it but more the confirmation that it is over, Tyrande is done and Sylvanas got away with it and it really feels so unsatisfying especially after Tyrande's extremely hype build up
He is a great translator. He approaches things with curiosity and positivity. I'm cynical and I think everything will suck. I like watching this channel to see how rational people behave.
I've been having very conflicted emotions about the handling of Tyrande's story arc since the night warrior began (loving some parts, feeling distasteful about others) but if this Elune moment is the culmination of it all, then by all means is it worth it. The handling of our goddess is excellent, and having started out as a Night Elf all the way from Warcraft III, this moment is beautiful. This portrayal of Elune is all I ever wanted from her revealing moment. Brilliant. Only brilliant. And holy god the chills when she began to speak, the mixture of Tyrande's and Elune's voice, the music, the overall ambience and animations truly did everything it should and needed to do.
Unsurprising that you would go to bat for this terrible plot. Here's what people are actually mad about and not convenient strawmen for you to argue against: Elune is negligent for Teldrassil not because she set it up because she could've done more to prevent it. Instead she played favorites with Malfurion to prevent *him* from dying but just put every other elf, including *children* to sleep so they wouldn't die in pain from being burned to death. It's arguable that even her small interactions with Azeroth turned the tide in multiple battles, including the War of Eternity. So why didn't she do more to intervene here? Hey, some crazy Starfall magic like what Tyrande used to be capable of would've been amazing. Hell, why not invoke the Night Warrior before it got that bad? No, Elune just saves Malfurion so Tyrande can run off with him and let her people be - in her words - occupied as painlessly as possible. Night elves to exist to get fridged. Blizzard didn't think about the ramifications of the scene they wrote and are constantly trying to walk back what they wrote. This 'renewal not vengeance' narrative is them trying to excuse Sylvanas' involvement. Hey, don't worry! All the night elves will be reborn with the Winter Queens magic so it's like nothing ever happened! Yaaaaay! It was all a dream! Nothing matters! No one has to be held accountable for the War of Thorns and the burning of civilians including children! Renewal, not vengeance guys. Oh, by the way. Let's take that to its logical conclusion. Let's have Sylvanas forgive Arthas for what he did. :) After all, he wasn't in control of his actions just as Sylvanas isn't culpable for anything she did in the past. Renewal not vengeance guys. :)
The whole, "Elune stopped Saurfang killing Malfurion" being treated like established fact is so weird. It is a complete misreading of the tone of the shirt story. There is no suggestion at ALL that Elune is powerful enough or has the inclinations step in and stop an invading army by herself. Her vulnerability in this cinematic only solidifies that
@@TaliesinEvitel How is it hard to imagine Elune intervening? Didn't she flat out make Tyrande invulnerable at one point? It isn't as if she did nothing for all of the War of Thorns. She put the elves to sleep to die painlessly. Why didn't she put the invading army to sleep? That probably would've been helpful. Can't do that though, sister needs souls. If Night elves were made aware of this, and if this game was written by competent people, they'd abandon her en masse. I would be *offended* if I was a Night elf and Elune told me she favored me.
I totally get that Elune didn't know about the issue with the Maw. But if she heard her sister's cries that they were starved of anima, and sent a "cascade of souls" without checking if they'll actually get there, that smacks of needing some basic-level IT fault finding. "There's no print jobs going through to the office printer." "I got you, fam. I just sent 1000 more print jobs to the printer." "But they still didn't come through." "Oh..."
Not sure I agree with the bit about Tyrande not wanting to kill Sylvanas, because she was trying to choke her out, imploring Elune to '...end this.', only for the night warrior fascade to wane.
It's oddly beautiful that Tyrande feels she need's Elune's fury to defeat Sylvanas but can't channel that fury unless Tyrande chooses to. When Tyrande says, "Mother Moon, do not forsake me, end this," Tyrande is pleading with herself for sustained rage she thinks she can rely on to come from Elune, when actually it is Tyrande's rage that falters and Tyrande's choice. Tyrande balking at the edge of vengeance is what makes her a hero, it is not what makes her weak. Even when Sylvanas deserves death for the horrors she's inflicted, Tyrande chooses, refuses, to be the avatar of that vengeance.
Also, I like the idea that Elune and the Winter Queen are the most... ambivalent of their respective realms. The Winter Queen clearly deals with renewal and rest, despite being committed to the realms of Death. Perhaps Elune represents the more melancholic and sorrowful aspects of Life. The idea that two sisters occupy the most transitory aspects of their purview is cool.
I'm still wondering what Elune's connection to the titans and the Light is. We know she has some connection to Eonar, since Eonar was hiding in Elunaria (and her tear was grouped with the Titanic Pillars of Creation), and we know the Tear of Elune is connected to the Naaru since it was used to connect to X'era. Why is Elune so connected to Light and Order? It would be like the Winter Queen being secret BFFs with Sargeras and the Void Lords.
Given that the Eternals predate the titans, it may be that Eonar chose to become essentially Elune's greatest follower, and her role as Lifebinder in the titans' Ordering of the worlds they found was to establish the links into the Great Cycle for the Wild Gods of these new worlds. When the Titans at last encountered a nascent world soul, (Azeroth) Elune might have given Eonar permission to more directly shape the corner of her realm that would be the Emerald Dream to ensure a faster turnaround on the Cycle for some of its most powerful defenders. Such a relationship may also explain Taliesin's remark about the apparent weakness of Elune- after Sargeras' betrayal of his Titan kin, it may have consumed much of Elune's power to shelter and sustain the fragment of Eonar, and she is just beginning to recover now that the Titans are restored.
I think the First Ones and the great ordering is centered around Life. So we know Light and Void were essential for the birth of everything else. Maybe Au’she isn’t Elune but is actually a Light aspected Life aligned being. Elune is Life aspected. Eonar is Order aspected and Life aligned. WQ is Death aspected but Life aligned. So far no hints on Void or Fel having Life aligned entities but it might make sense.
Thank you! My god. You wouldn’t think “in the wake of” would be so confusing. I know you were trying not to be condescending or pissy, so I’ll do it for you. FFS PEOPLE.
I mean, there are surely a lot of people with a bad reading/listening comprehension, who also just WANT to rant at every possible occasion, but there are probably also a lot of non-native english speakers that use the english client, because there is none for their language, or it sucks. So, yeah, people, make sure you know your vocabulary before ranting!
A lot of people understood it perfectly but also knew enough about the lore to know Elune frequently sends prophetic visions to her followers. She could have warned them and chose not to for her own agenda... Or just wasn't paying any attention to Azeroth because she doesn't care much.
The problem is NOTHING about Tyrande has ever said mercy is an integral or core part of her personality. Starting with freeing Illidan, we have always seen her slay anyone that gets in her way relentlessly and without remorse. So the idea that some deep part of her didn't want to kill Sylvanas just doesn't fly to me. You could maybe argue a deep part of her knew she might die too and acted out of self preservation.
16:50 Taliesin, the fact that there is an anima drought in the first place is reason to believe something suspicious is going on. Unless Elune has no knowledge of how the machine of death works, it is systematically impossible for an anima drought to happen unless something went wrong. Did Elune just think anything relating to nature stopped dying and going to Ardenweald???
Or maybe she there are other dieties like Elune that "stopped" other souls from dying , similar to how she did with making Night Elfes into wisps. From her perspective she just herd her sister's cries for help and she offered what she tought was a helping hand without looking into it.
@@Phoenixillusion18 hear her feelings but can't talk. Come on man he is gasping for straws here. How would WQ know her sister is helping? Go on feeling radar? Better yet if they are from different realms why would WQ even ask her for help? If you apply some logic to this messed up story it falls apart very easy. The whole eternal ones not knowing what is going on in their own realm is by far the stupidest plot I've seen so far. If this cinematic proved anything its how easy it was to make elune not look like an incompetent idiot. She could simply send and avatar or an agent to SL. Don't tell me that can't be done cause titans, burning legion and light did it already, let alone dread lords. Edit Btw I'm not trying to attack you or anything but pointing out some valid point.
@@bastalam well look at how often the Titans agents they send get rogue and turn against their masters. I as titan would not trust one of my servants to be reliable.
@@williampaulsinghharika2627 I'm not quite sure what you are going for here. Given that Elune can out right possess the said agent/manifest through them the likelihood of what you said happening is very slim. If anything Tyrande should have been used as she was there already and possessed Elune's power.
@@bastalam but Tyrande went there at the beginning of Shadowlands, so Elune did not yet have an agent there as far as we know. Only her former nightwarriors who all seem to have broken all connections to her, after her power killed them. The stonewright even despises her.
The Night Warrior ended up being kinda pointless? It was built as basically going emo super sayen yet Tyrande basically did nothing and she was removed from its power without harm
What I don't get is if Tyrande says she was like a passenger and was not in control, Elune knew about the Night Elves going to the Maw before meeting the Winter Queen. Tyrande under the Night Warrior power, was in the maw and learnt about that, we saw that in the Ardenweald campaign. But in this cinematic she looks like she just found out, and I don't believe it's the case.
When I played through the cut scene, I missed the '...in the wake of tragedy' bit, so spent the night generally grumpy till I got up and rewatched the cinematic. Then all became clear. Praise Elune!
i'm very much aware of gods in fantasy verses with no care for the mortals plight and simply thought that "elune is one of those gods whose morality compass would be hard to swallow by a mortal". i also considered the great tragedy something else entirely. all things considered even if elune was the very reason that the tree could not be saved - the fact that night elf souls would end up in ardenweald and live eternal among the endless forest should be considered a GIFT. ascension even. this is simply put, writing that takes an open and inquisitive mind to truly appreciate - something that wow players in general lacks and blizzard in their part: is fairly well aware of. this is why wow's storylines are usually very, very brain dead. but even in these dark times you can still see the flickers of absolute brilliance. i truly wish these writers get to do whatever they want and not be told that "your writing is too big brain for the idiots you're writing for so please dumb it down" as often as they do at blizzard
I agree with Taliesin about Elune and the Emerald Dream, that means we surely go in this one in a future expansion, maybe after Shadowlands. If Elune is an eternal of Life , that means maybe there is a Pantheon of Life in the Emerald Dream.
@@calapsesathir4408 Not to butt in but butting in anyways (I can throw some more butts or butsin there if you neef btw), I used to think I did not mind spoilers. But the wow community is way too stupid about it and wrench spoilers from the game code before any of that content is even playable. It's half the reason I stopped following Bellular, he has been using that clip from Anduin on Bastion for over a month before 9.1 launched. On that note, having started accompanying Taliesin only a few weeks ago, it's been delightful to watch his hot takes on the lore. Not only does he look at the lore from an angle that is very similar to my own, unlike Bellular, he is also sensitive about not spoiling the fun out of story content for his audience.
How would Tyrande choose not to kill Sylvanas if right before that she said "my life for hers" and when her powers were weakening she was begging Elune to not abandon her and to finish killing Sylvanas...
Another possible reading of things: Tyrande didn't make the choice, Elune's vengeane could not be invoked in the shadowlands against sylvanas for the same reason she is "trespassing" in ardenweald and the Queen is surprised to see her power there. She is not supposed to be able to influence the shadowlands. Thats why all she could do was send the souls to ardenweald, and why the other night warriors (who are not living anymore) do not have the powers of the night warrior any more.
It's an interesting speculation. My own actually was that Ysera's visions from the Dream about Tyrande being vital to Ardenweald's survival, were possibly seen by Elune as well; being a deity of the same power. And as such, Elune couldn't allow Tyrande to trade her life for Sylvanas'. But Taliesin's interpretation of her subconsciously not chosing vengeance, has merit too.
the real reason is because the writers wanted the fight to happen, but needed a reason for sylvanas to still get away unharmed. There doesn't seem to be a coherent explanation justifying it though.
The primus tells us after completing the quest that the Winter Queen and Elune are bound together. The Winter Queen in the realm of death and Elune in the opposite realm of mortals.
Fantastic critique, Tali. If people aren’t reading what’s in front of them... well, that’s their problem. Kudos, too, to Blizzard writers for their inventive use of Celtic myth and symbolism. They have clearly highlighted that the cycle - the balance - has been broken and needs to be restored. Don’t take your eyes off The Gaoler and be ready for a bigger revelation than even this glorious cinematic.
One of the most important vids that you two have done. Good job. People really need to listen and read instead of jumping on the hate train, because of what they took the wrong way. Getting on the train because of Acti-Blizz being jerkoffs? Sure. But not because they got something wrong.
And question, where the heck has Malfurion been while this mess with his wife has been going on? My husband would be staying with me, trying to talk me out of it. (as I hear the words "Tyranda, help me" from Legion, as an echo.)
@@Katsutomai I mean, if your wife who has an inherent connection to the moon is struggling with a dark power and needs to let go of negative emotions to cleanse as a sign of personal growth then I guess he picked a pretty good game to get some pointers.
there's a throwaway line at the beginning of the expansion about the political faction leaders choosing not to go to Shadowlands because they don't want to risk creating a power vacuum if they can't make it back- Tyrande wasn't supposed to go either.
in my WoW tinfoil hat insanity headcanon, Elune is tired because she's having to hold a rogue titan still after we fell into a fever dream in Ny'alotha that made us believe we killed N'zoth with a friendship laser, and sylvanas had to save us by luring us to the shadowlands and all the time we've been here, N'zoth has been breaking yogg'saron and c'thun free from their prisons, so that when we get back we have full on void titan azeroth that we have to fight side by side with the now infinite dragonflight, since that story needed to come full circle anyways, and Nozdormu has a vested interest in avoiding the true end time.
I can't believe he's put out a 30 minute video praising this crap... Maybe I'm not the target audience for this kind of content anymore or maybe I cannot stomach this guy pretending like everything is ok. Regardless, I wish you the best, but I'm canceling my subscription. Thank you for the entertainment over the past few years.
Ardenweald and the Winter Queen seem deeply rooted in Celtic mythology. The Winter Queen, Mab has a counterpart/ sister The Summer Queen Titania. Even if the WOW writers don't go that far the obvious reference between life and death are obvious. After all, the Emerald Dream is a place where life overflows. Also, I think Elune was weak is simply the strain of being in a place she doesn't belong. Her realm is in the land of the living and she's piggybacked her way into the lands of the dead. She'd naturally have little real power there... but still enough to cause chaos to the minor players. But this also plays as to why she didn't know. A goddess of the living wouldn't necessarily know what is going on outside her realm as it would be outside her power.
she says "I sent THE cascade of souls" - implying they were already going somewhere. The WQ confirming it was the Great Tree. I think even Tali missed that one, but got the interpretation right.
@@suzandouglass5241 absolutely THE and not "A cascade of souls" clearly means that Elune discovered the cascade of souls/burning of Teldrassil as it happened and she did not orchastrate anything
wich is no doubt, this. Elune was most likely like "oh... I can stop it but... man my sister is really in need of souls... I just can't do it" and taliesin is just shilling again :D
@@arthurhki1471 she is only confirming that her sister's answer was indeed, The Great Tree burning. She is now looking back and saying "oh, so that was you".
I feel like even if she sent the souls AFTER, in the WAKE of the burning, it makes her appear either very apathetic or incompetent. She didn't know the machinery of death was broken? Fine, fine. She was able to put the burning night elves to sleep, but not able to help in any more of a constructive way? I just feel like we're having to do a lot of homework to rationalize the decisions made. I hoped for more from Elune, and I feel that it's a little unfair to dismiss everyone who agrees with me as "pissy" or "butthurt". I didn't want a fallible goddess, for once.
I've been playing WoW for a very long time now and I had a bad feeling about how the direction of the lore when Shadowlands was announced. "Going to the realm of death" seemed fundamentally dumb, and a realm of death which is just a mirror of the realm of life would seem to drain all meaning from "dying" in-game. I've questioned a lot of character decisions over the past couple of years, and storywise I've gotten quite tired of the "beloved figure X is corrupted, we must fight them to uncorrupt/redeem them" storyline. But of all the predictable or bad plot twists, this "big" Elune video is the worst I can remember. Elune heard the Winter Queen's cries, so she let Teldrassil burn? But she didn't know the Maw was gobbling them all up? Elune sounds like total garbage. The entire Night Warrior storyline seems pointless now that Tyrande has her blue eyes back and Sylvanas is still alive. What was the point of any of it? There are very few threads of original WoW lore that haven't been teased out yet. Elune was one of the major ones, and it looks like they're about to pull that one completely out as a way to try to retcon the "Eternal Ones" as a Big Thing. I fully expect 9.2 will be Uncorrupted Uther + Varian pulling Arthas out of the Maw, cleansing him, and then the 3 of them go and Uncorrupt Anduin as the penultimate boss fight of the Jailer raid. After all, this entire expansion seems to be a way to revisit "Azeroth's Greatest Hits" by talking to dead heroes. I normally love the Taliesin cinematic explainers, but this one I had to skip through because I found the cinematic itself so infuriatingly bad. It's well made but the story is atrocious now and along with the last couple cinematics it just makes me care less about the game and what happens in it. Blizzard is in serious trouble on multiple fronts. The mechanics and gameplay are bad, the story is bad, and the corporate culture is bad. Most of all it just seems like there's no respect whatsoever for the players themselves and the investments of time, emotion, and money that we've made.
There is nothing saying Eonar is not a sister in this family as well... Tyrande's voice actor definitely is involved in the voiceover. Elune = Summer Queen.
Let me offer a slightly different idea. The "tragedy" is the anima shortage that is killing Ardenweald. Elune can be, in that case, a factor in Sylvanas' decision to burn Teldrassil because that would release all the wisps and additional souls stored there. Just food for thought. :)
Just my two cents on the whole Blizzard thing. Blizzard may profit from what you do indirectly, but what you do is for the fanbase. I think the WOW players need you more than Blizzard ever will. Just be a voice, and be there for all the other voices.
Love the analysis at the start at the comparisment between how a being like Xera and Elune speaks. Was really waiting for your analysis on this one, checked out belular as well, and some arguments/comments:
13:30 Elune not being responsible for the burning. I agree and don't believe that's the story they want to tell, but the cutscene does not shoot down the idea because of how vague it is. 'In the wake of tragedy' does not mean she didn't cause the tragedy. "Even in this dark hour, they would say, Elune still watches over us. And that was almost certainly true, wasn’t it? Elune had intervened. Perhaps she had even stayed Saurfang’s killing blow."
15:50 SPOILERS Next week you'll find out that the Archon and others close to her were aware of the drought and kept their mouth shut. Kalisthene: "My orders were to keep the aspirants training, to bide our time until the drought passed. I was not to tell them that every single soul was sent straight to the maw, that the shadowlands had broken down." Still fair to say that Elune wasn't aware of this. She just knew there was a drought and send souls to help without questioning why there was a drought.
Don't blame Elune for that, gods can be dumb... but why are the night elves oke with this?
23:30 That's a big self insert on the level of Sylvanas passed the kill of Malfurion to Saurfang to test his loyalty.
This is a Tyrande that
told thrall 'don't talk to me until you bring me the banshee's head to
I'm jumping in the maw to
you go save the spirits of our people, i'm on the hunt to
I'm here banshee queen, time for revenge. I'm ready to trade my life for yours. But somewhere in between, in her mind without showing any sign of it she figured ehhhhh nevermind?!
There's a chapter of storytelling missing for the night warrior where she flows into forgiveness making this 'choice' fall flat on its face + no recognition for what Elune did or didn't do for the night elves.
My thought was that her choice meant holding onto Elune's power to continue to seek revenge, or let it go in order to allow Elune and the Winter Queen to work together to save the rest of the night elves souls. And the presumably, the latter seemed like a more worthwhile pursuit to Tyrande. Maybe.
I do agree that the whole thing was too vague. After all, people are clearly having different understandings here. That is a problem.
Big agree on this. What I find very lacking in this entire storyline is insight into Tyrande's thought process and reasoning. I want to know why she chose renewal when she was so hell bent on vengeance before. Would also be great to see both Tyrande and other Night Elven characters like Shandris have some proper dialogue about Elune and what they mean to her in the wake of all this - the brief dialogue that is had afterwards don't really say much about what they are thinking other than "her voice was beautiful" and "we were both sad".
YES Nobbel thank you. I agree with all your comments. I wish they would have handled this story with a bit more grace, time, and forward planning. Tyrande went from super-sayan flying at Sylvanas for the kill to "meh, let's choose forgiveness" in the blink of an eye. That was a fumble, in my opinion. I love the WoW story, i love the writers, I'm sure Christie's Sylvanas book is going to be excellent. But I'm just a little disappointed and tired of all the unanswered questions / expectations being subverted.
Love to see the lore invested youtubers bash heads! Don't mean that negativly. Hope Tali makes a reply to this. You both are so deeply invested in the lore so its interesting watch two different people on it than everyone being more focused on the shot show going on these days and claiming because of it, everything related to blizz is trash.
I think with the revenge is like when you seek something in real life and until you don't have it you look for it and seek it. Then you receive what you wanted and it becomes irrelevant really fast. It doesn't have to be big relevation, but something just deep inside which just told her basically "killing sylvanas won't bring you peace"
I think the reason why Elune is so tired has to do with all the boomkins being meta right now. It's hard work making all those star surges happen :)
one of my boomkin guildies pulled a 4.66 MILLION starsurge in Torghast recently O_O (I wasn't there so no idea every power that went into that). Apparently he deleted the Adamant Vaults boss so effectively it took the game several seconds to realize the boss was dead XD
pewpewpew
@@NinjaFlibble game: excuse me but what the fuck
As taliesan said the link of elune involved in the great cycle and eonar holding a 'piece' of the realms of life through the emeral dream my mind hit a very interesting thought. Is elune the world soul?
In the German Version, elune does not take credibility of the burning. But for the sending(not preventing) the souls to the shadowland.
Edit: Should have waited 20 sec for your explanation xD. its 100% right
She also doesn't take credit for the genocide in the english. "In the wake of tragedy, I sent forth cascade of souls.", the meaning is simple, she knew her people had been massacred and decided to send their souls to Ardenweald. And before you ask why she did not stop it, she is a goddess, not some trash picker. Also, she actually said "in the wake of a tragedy", the subtitles are wrong. That 'a' makes a lot of difference.
I got the feeling the German synchronization is generally a lot more clear, or at least less ambiguous.
In the raid cinematic for example,
Sylvanas says: „I will never serve AGAIN“ which makes a whole lot more sense.
Nah the best part is when Moonberry starts singing and Cudgelface is like : "We don't do that here" :D
Anxiously singing "Don't be suspicious! Don't.. be..". Yup, whenever Moonberry is at the helm of a quest arc I know I'm going to have fun.
Infinity War reference was my first thought. I loved it.
I laughed so hard when I heard it. Loved it!
I love the nightfae but I cannot stand Moonberry!
Elune said "She must choose." not "She had to choose.", meaning Tyrande hasn't made a choice yet. So she didn't spare Sylvanas willingly. Hence the "My life for hers." and "Mother Moon, do not forsake me. End this." lines.
My guess is Elune was all like "nah girl, take your time, don't be stupid"
@@wardzer Elune has such a complicated relationship with the concept of free will.
Tyrande clearly chose vengeance in that moment, so the sudden shift to renewal just feels like a retcon. Honestly, I'm disappointed in Tali for saying that perspective is "incurious".
@@karlrassmann4604 Or maybe, just maybe, she had a moment of overheating where she used up too much power and her body couldn't handle it, so her body tried to contain in and once she reached her limit it went berserk.
@@wardzer I don't know if that's exactly it, but it does sound like Elune's power is invoked only for a specific purpose (the Stonewright for revenge and let it get away from her, for example). Since Tyrande hadn't made up her mind about which she wanted Elune for more, perhaps Elune was powerless to assist her in one of those options.
im starting to get the feeling a LOT of people really mean "write the story like im 5" when they say that the writing is bad... I cant imagine coming to the conclusion that Elune made the world tree event happen...wut lol
I agree. People only read what they want to read aka they search for things to pick on at this point. I’m always happy Tali still appreciates and discusses the lore.
Agreed. It's just an angry mob that wants to be angry and since it's a rather vocal group of people - they just perceive their haphazard views as truth.
Exactly.
In this case, to be fair, the momentousness of Elune's declaration makes it easy to overlook the conditioning sentence, "in the wake of tragedy". I got this idea the first time I watched it, but realised that was not it the second time around.
I just watched this cinematic and I thought to myself "Boy I sure wonder what Taliesin thinks" right as this dropped into my inbox
"How Taliesin will turn it into greatest cinematic in history".
@@Dooger414 Of course, any, like from N'Zoth raid ending cinematic.
I swear to God Tali, without you explaining all these cinematics I wouldn't understand anything about the lore
Yes! THANK YOU!
I was worried if this video would come at all, considering everything that's going on. Talie's "translations" (as I call 'em) make understanding WoW lore so much easier and more enjoyable to me.
Some might consider that a problem with the writing, especially since a lot of what he says in the video is just his inference, interpretation, or speculation.
@@toasty_goat yerp
This is just what I was thinking. In-game exposition could and should be doing the storytelling and making the connections here.
and thats how you know that the lore is so poorly portrayed - that you need youtubers that know the devs to explain what they should have explained through their cinematics. When u dont understand what's happening, are confused or "would understand anything about the lore" as u put it, you know its being put forth in a terrible way. They COULD make it clearer, but they like the arbitrary discussion it creates on the internet and prefer that over good story telling
My favourite thing unsaid in this cinematic is that there are no Kyrian Night Warriors since they would have forgotten that same sacrifice.
Good point. Hadn't even thought of that.
also, unless I'm wrong, invoking the Night Warrior is about vengeance. The type of people that go to the Kyrian would not be about taking vengeance but getting justice.
@@NinjaFlibble Not all Night Warriors have such a negative motivation determine their paths. Talk to Thiernax again on your Night Fae toons, and he will remark not how he was wrong with his choice or what he did with Elune's power, but ruing insteaed the fact that sharing the burden with Qadarin cost his husband's life as well. So they don't all burn out on their quest for vengeance. I think that a Night Warrior could very well make the unthinkable choice of invoking Elune for purely selfless reasons, and be spent in their quest for justice knowing full well and embracing the destiny that was set for them, uncorrupted in their purpose. Such a Night Warrior might well go to Bastion. But on arriving, they would still be encouraged to purge their memories as happens to all Kyrians.
@@NinjaFlibble That is explicitly wrong. The Night Warrior is the aspect of justice and vengeance can be justice. These two things are not mutually exclusive. Vindication, retribution, these are asll ways that peace of mind can be achieved, which are all part of Elune's whole shtique; Knowing when to fight, knowing when to die fighting, knowing when the live to fight another day and knowing when to live to live in peace.
Sylvanas murdered uncountable innocents. Her death is justice for the night elves and I don't think you can deny that. The difference between justice and vengeance often seems arbitrary in this setting; The only difference is the presentation and window dressing most of the time.
I don't think a person not remember they're a night warrior wouldn't matter, they don't have to know for someone else to know, it just makes them a little useless without the knowledge that they were so why bother going there
I was screaming at my screen "REVENGE CHOOSE REVENGE!" now I feel bad about it.
😆
I don't. If she had killed Sylvanas during the battle for Ardenweald, there's a good chance the Jailer's attack on the Arbiter would have failed, preventing a massive risk to all life in the universe. I get that he had questionable motivations, but trading her life to remove the threat of Sylvanas was absolutely the correct choice for her to make from a strategic standpoint.
"The Winter Queen is bound to *her* counterpart in the realms of life."
So others have counterparts too I guess. I wonder which one Zovaal wants to off, his own or Elune.
Not necessarily. I think WQ and Elune is a special case because they both are involved in the great cycle between life and death.
I'm not really sure there's a solid basis for that conclusion. Ardenweald's main purpose is facilitating the renewal of its inhabitants, sometimes literally renewing them back into the realm of life. As Sean mentioned, it is a component of a cycle. No other covenant of the Shadowlands exists as part of a cycle in the same way. In fact, every other covenant's primary focus lies in assisting souls to find their new place within the realm of death by accepting (Necrolord), atoning for (Venthyr), or letting go of (Kyrian) their path in life. No covenant but Ardenweald creates a loop which feeds back to life.
the maw is the only non recyceling soul place. doesnt make a sense for a counterpart for that domains ruler
part of me wants to say Illidan is Zoval's Moriarty. I mean...
Super interesting question. I wonder if they even all have a counterpart, its possible that only some do?
I am glad that even though Elune was using Tyrande as a vessel to communicate with her sister, the voice was not Tyrande's but her own. Ok after hearing it a little more, it does sound like it's a combination of Tyrande's voice and Elune's. So possibly two different voice actresses.
@Nathan Taffijn The vast majority of voice actors are not vocal chameleons like Mel Blanc or the few other names we all know. Most who alter their voices for rroles are still quite recognizable as the same people.
In the german version at least i can tell it's Tyrandes Voice with a fancy filter over it to symbolize that Elune is speaking through her- so idk :shrug:
Y'all heard of voice manipulation in post-production?
@@twelvezeros This, I mostly hear Tyrande's VO with heavy editing for getting the reverb, echo and stuff.
GoGoGoGoGoGoGo did Bobby step down yet ?
So far in Shadowlands, Ardenweald has contained my favorite storylines.
I already miss that Elune-ish, night sky look. This looked so awesome.
So Tyrande decided not to take her vengeance when it was in her hand? She went from unreasonably, earth shatteringly 'Im jumping head first into the maw, blowing open the doors of Thorghast and slaughtering everything in my path to get to Sylvanas' to 'Deep down I forgive you, I won't kill you'
That seems like a HUGE and MASSIVE leap with no build up or foreshadowing. At what point did Tyrande look like she might forgive Sylvanas?
This just seems like nonsense to me
What would have happened if Sylvanas didn't decide to burn Teldrassil? Would Elune not send any help to the Winter Queen?
It's not a very good story if its strung along by a series of happy accidents.
I think the existing soul wisps( few when comparing it to the cascade after the burning) would mysteriously dissapear, and no one will know the answer.. till now
@Episode Update except it is already established that only wild gods and loa and reborn there. the night elves souls would have been nothing more then an fuel for the winter queen. this does not stop the fact that elune did not even look into what was going on at all, and blindly tossed them to the shadowlands when she already knew they were not getting souls in the first place.
See, this is why I like these cinematic analysis with Taliesin. No knee-jerk responses, but well-crafted analysis that actually dives into all the lore factors, and analyzing of what's actually said. Naturally, Blizzard is messing up badly by making the plot so vague. It shouldn't be a puzzle to get the right understanding. But I'm glad at least this channel is putting it out there. Thanks!
Love you, Tali, but that explanation for why Elune left Tyrande during the fight against Sylvanas is a huge stretch. In fact, that cinematic tries to express the opposite. The entire cinematic with that fight hammers the idea that Tyrande wants Sylvanas dead, and it at no point implies that she has second thoughts. Even her cry to Elune to "end this" shows a desperation to have her vengeance, as if she doesn't even see renewal without vengeance as a possibility. If the cinematic was supposed to leave us with doubts about Tyrande's desire for vengeance, it failed.
You COULD be right about Tyrande having chosen renewal at that point, but with the lack of clear motivation they've given it'd almost feel like a retcon. I'd honestly chalk it up to poor storytelling creating a rift between a character's motivation and what the audience can perceive. And with this lack of clarity, it's kind of mean spirited to call people incurious for not seeing your perspective.
Still love ya and support the channel :)
Edit: Someone in the comments brought up how the phrase "She must choose" shows us that Tyrande had not yet chosen. Therefore such a choice cannot be the reason why Elune's power faded.
Well said! Love u Tali and Evi!
Maybe that's the reason Elune's power faded, Tyrande has not made a choice yet, if she was 100% sure she wanted vengeance, maybe Elune would have allowed her to kill Sylvanas, but it seems Tyrande was still conflicted?!? Maybe the quest line with Shandris had her doubt her quest for vengeance?
@@remuscroitoriu4810 I could see this being the case, which is why I say Tali COULD be right. However, a story only has as much meaning as what is perceived. The last cinematic made it clear Tyrande was 110% on board vengeance. If the writers believed she had any kind of conflict, they failed to show it to us.
Again, it's totally possible Tali is right. However, if he is, that means the writers failed to set up that narrative.
@@karlrassmann4604 I agree, sometimes it seems they just change things during the development of the story, and at the same time they go out of their way to make it as cryptic as possible, but thank God we have Tali. I hope he never ceases to do these lore videos, regardless of what happens with blizz. You cannot find someone better and more enthusiastic out there than him, when it comes to wow lore
Well said Kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarl. I agree, that was kind of a stretch. In the cinematic itself, it seems ALL of Tyrande's attacks are attempted killing blows, lots of head lobbers. That's not the actions of someone on the fence about renewal, that's the actions of someone hellbent on murdering.
Character closes eyes.
Taliesin: This is a call back.
When Tyrande speaks to Shandris, they were both overtaken with emotion on being that close to their goddess. This was a spiritual moment for them. Another thing catching my eye was before and after speaking to available NPCs, things similar to the old gods were mentioned A LOT. Thiernax & Qadarin especially. Plus we left that lovely void seed in the Emerald Dream back in Legion.
I haven't played for little bit more than a year now, won't do so even less with all that is going on, but I'm always glad to be following the story alongside this channel, you guys keep my love for this universe alive, thank you!
Same I quit wow after Legion.
I personally I feel like I can't justify paying $60 for the expansion than give them another $15 to keep playing. It's like buying a toy and than you have to pay Mattel money to play with it every day.
@@boneshaman8912 60$ and then 15$ per month or 155.88$ per year. Make the expansion cycle 2 years and we paid 371.76$ for an expansion that provided less than Witcher 3 Hearts of Stone dlc...
Eh real life drama should never effect why or why not to play a game but yea it's a little zzz.
@@archaontheeverchosen7980 If that's how you feel about it, then that's fine too. I wouldn't say "never" because it really depends on the person
Bliztards hate lore
23:45 I would actually believe it if she didn’t literally said “My life for hers”.
Except for this, great analysis as ever thanks!
I like his analysis and there are few things he didn't really delve into deeply cause if he did it would kinda go against his stated facts. I do agree with you though. Seems as if this time he didn't pay attention to the words used lol
@@bastalam Yeah, Elune says Tyrande "must" choose, which implies the decision hasn't been made yet. Saying that it has been chosen already is... an odd interpretation.
She said "my life for hers" immediately before she failed to kill Sylvanas with her super sayian powers. The Night Warrior's power was not enough. It is limited, because it is wielded by a mortal and because Elune herself is not almighty. So pay attention to the words and to what the cinematic tells you.
@@moscanaveia Elune’s true powers is yet to be seen but yeah, it could be that it wasn’t enough but, we were talking about something else 🤣
@@Massivecow1337 Yeah well but the fight with Sylvanas happened before, would you suggest that she had a change of mind?
this also explains the weird repeatable quest we kept getting as night fae to go and collect more and more of the night elf souls from the maw (different to the torghast souls) its a shame those quests were just weirdly floating out there with nothing going on
I think a lot of player anger can also be explained by the fact that non-Nightfae actually get no info about all this whatsoever until this questline and cinematic because our queslines before that actually delivered zero info about any of this.
@@HH-hd7nd That's something that is quite striking. Some content is so fundational (like the Bolvar quests to rescue our leaders from Torghast) that should be overarching regardless of Covenant choice. I think this bit should be part of it (up to and including Ysera's requests for night elf souls from the Maw), and I really think Ardenweald's campaign as a whole would have benefitted from it. Each zone's pre-covenant choice questline sets up an enemy that is sommehow connected to the Maw and the Jailer, but the only zone where that enemy goes nowhere is Ardenwewald. When playing through the Ardenweald covenant campaign, the lack of focus is really glaring and in the end, the only plot point explored during that campaign that does not get a satisfactory resolution is the Drust subplot, when it should have been the main focus in my opinion
@@moscanaveia Actually I'm not sure how the Drust are connected to the Jailer. Maybe Thros was his original zone and we go there in 9.2, who knows.
@@HH-hd7nd Remains to be seen, but with the way the Ardenweald campaign was written, the "resolution" of the Drust arc was quite unsatisfying. And it's especially annoying because it is the object of the final chapter on said campaign. Of all the servants of the Jailer (the Forsworn of Lysonia and Devos, the traitors from Maldraxxus, and Denathrius' Venthyr followers), there is for instance a representation in Torghast, with one wing (Coldheart Interstitia for the Forsworn/Mawsworn Kyrians, Upper Reaches for Venthyr and Fracture Chambers for the Maldraxxi) and plenty of mobs. Not so for the Drust. I'm left with a feeling that the Drust were just filler content, which makes it wasted potential for a threat that has such profound and interesting lore, up to par with Mueh'zala and Helya if you ask me.
@@moscanaveia I'm actually not sure if the Drust really are servants of the Jailer or if they merely cooperated with him because they where sharing a common goal.
However if they are indeed his servants and if we are going to Thros at some point the reason might well be that they are saving the Drust for another story arc.
It's also absolutely possible that they where indeed filler content. Only time will tell.
Why did I have to watch a 30 minute video (which was great btw) to fully understand the story?
If the story doesn't suck, the way they tell it does...
You can get to a thirty minute video by watching tthe cinematic and knowing the lore that led up to this point. That a simple few-minutes cinematic can yield thirty minutes of discussion and delving deep, that means the cinematic is good, and not bad.
More spinning Evitel intros.
"I've been expecting you, Mr Elba..."
I have trouble empathizing with these shadowlands beings due to the fact that we are basically livestock to them.
Yeah i agree, I find it troubling that noone speaks of this more. We are indeed just numbers in a big soul grind.
Welcome to the realm of the dead and godlike planes. Fits the trope like a glove, if you ask me.
I wish we'd gotten the option to have our NEs get that galaxy look after the quest like we got the night warrior eyes
Make it a chain quest... Like the green fire. But this being blizzard you won't see that.
There’s a piece of dialogue in the Heart Of the Forest after this. Tyrande speaks to a night elf soul, and in it mentions elunes power did not leave her, implying she still has the power of the night warrior.
I hope so?
Tyrande is Elune's High Priestess, though. Hasn't she always had access to Elune's power?
@@opallise if I remember the dialogue right it implied it was still night warrior power not just priestess powers. At least I hope that’s the case lol
I'm surprised Taliesin didn't find and discuss this. I found the emote from the Winter Queen after the exchange the most enticing bit.
Not just any soul, but the one who sings the elegy at the end of the Elegy short story.
TLDR: I waste my time typing this shit and I don't really care at the end.
Not buying the whole, Elune couldn't save her people. I'm still of the opinion that this is lazy writing still because there are things that don't have to do with Elune that don't make an ounce of sense.
Elune had the ability to intervene, if I'm not mistaken, she puts everyone in Teldrassil to sleep so that they don't feel the pain. Why couldn't she just douse the flames or put some protective barrier that stops the fire, etc.? If Night Elf souls normally become wisps because of Elune's interference and Sylvanas attacked Teldrassil for the souls to go to the Maw shouldn't the Jailor have known that night elf souls never go to the Maw therefore making the attack on it useless?
You're telling, that as an Eternal One, your lands are in a drought and you don't go to the source to find out why? We've seen that they can project themselves to the Arbiter's location and talk with one another, did none of them try to check in with Oribos to see wtf was happening? Did I miss this explanation in the quest line?
In regards to Tyrande choosing deep down to not take vengeance on Sylvanas, I won't buy into that either until it's stated by the writer, in game, in a book or wherever else things like these become official. Until then, you're saying what you want to believe is true but from what we see and what we get, we have to come up with our own dots that connect the story to make sense of it, which in my opinion is lazy.
The counterpart of the winter queen part that you brought up can make sense but again like I mentioned before, creating our own dots to connect the story until the writers have time to make up the next scene is lazy. This should all be though of already and we shouldn't need to come up with head cannon in order for it to make sense to us.
I know this is all theory but you have to admit that looking at it from a high level, the story is getting lazy if you just use the same thought process that's being used in the other parts story. Making a broker explain what the Titans mean by "Ordered" only to fit their "non retcon" writing is lazy and annoying. They weren't able to connect older stories with the new story and now they want to change things so that it ends up looking good again because they lost track somewhere along the lines.
The answer to the first question is literally part of the cinematic. She could have but chose to help her sister instead. Theres no evidence that the jailer new that or even that he told sylvannas more than just gather souls which she did completely unaware.
Going to be honest. Calling open-ended explanations lazy writings is just lazy loremanship. or lorewormanship if have you. Open-ended answers like these leave people wanting for more. Questions get answered but more questions arise. It's actually a mark of really good storytelling when done right. And I think the writers of the wow story do a great job personally.
Im so confused that people ok with this, basicaly its saying something like: I watched how he stabbed her for 20 minutes, im sorry, i didnt want to shoot my gun that i pointed at him. And yes its litteraly it, Elune cound buff someone to stop sylvana or magic plothole barier like bloodelves have, or DONT PUT THEM ASLEEP, its so bad to think about it, in a context that there is no more gods basicaly, after this ELUNE should be raidboss where you get your JUSTICE. Im so.......confused that people ok with it.......elune did holocost...........just WoW
@@dragonhunter6102 was that even English?
@@kloaf1131 dude, you can literally point my errors and i will eddit them out
I have a feeling that Elune is the younger sister in their relationship
Agree completely. The WQ and Elune interaction felt really personal to me since I’m the older sibling.
Interesting, I felt like it was the complete opposite: Elune is the elder sibling which is why the Winter Queen had the expectation that Elune could and would help. The way she asked "Hey, where were you when I needed help?" and the genuine hurt in her voice sounded to me more like a younger sibling who is wondering why there older sister who has always been there for them suddenly wasn't there when they needed them most.
@@cassandramuller7337 this makes sense also. I do tend to be on the scolding side more times than not as the older one. We are all adults (I’m 35 lol) but to me they still do “dumb shit”.
@@Yad_HG Younger siblings do be like that :P
But life comes before death
Don't forget Xalatath call Elune the "upstart goddess" implying they have more knowledge of her than we currently do possibly tying to your comment about Elune and galactic war. Secondly, I personally hope that the events surrounding Blizzard currently does not cause you to stop making content that's enjoyed by us, about a game I think some of us still enjoy playing.
Just that everyone else calls her a full god. Xalatath may have lied.
@@williampaulsinghharika2627 Xalatath is an old god weapon so that is VERY plausible
If Blitzchung and the Hong Kong incident didn't make them stop or even pause then why would this? What they have went through is FAR worse than any Bliz employee. Tali just loves his soap box, ya know.
Xalatath interacted with Old Gods this would imply that they are older then Elune who is Upstart goddes to them
@@KM-fm9ms if blitzchung made you stop using blizz products you also would need to stop using apple, google and microsoft products who all cooperate the same way with the chinese goverment and tailor their products to their wishes.
What I get from that starting line is that Winter Queen is adressing someone far above her, they pleaded for her to aid them, it's like talking to her superior but knowing that Elune won't get angry with her/strike her down. Elune restored heart of forest and sigil, that is the power she has
Really enjoy your break down of the lore and even though I cancelled my sub for the first time in 17 years (yes 17) I still love the lore.
I know you've a lot of thinking to do about your content going forward but just want to know you're appreciated.
everyday after work i check your channel. it is literally the only show i watch. hoping for the next episode to come out.
The cinematic looked cool, but then basically every cinematic the team makes is good, and the score was seriously on point too. You make some great points that shut down a lot of complaints people had about this cinematic, but one concern I've heard (and kind of agree with) is that if Tyrande chooses renewal then it increases the odds of Sylvanas getting a redemption arc. For me, personally, at this point the worst part about Sylvanas getting a redemption arc is that it would feel incredibly lazy and predictable.
Sylvanas died defending her people and her soul was torn from her leaving only the vengeful banshee we know her as today. Why would redemption be lazy writing if her entire character revolves around her soul / true self being stripped from her?
@@Montenegro651 My bad, lazy was a poorly chosen word. I think that a redemption arc for Sylvanas has to be handled very gently and I am concerned that it ultimately will end up being unsatisfying.
But your point about the soul split in twain is a good one, but it adds to the evidence that Blizzard are going to try and redeem Sylvanas, "She isn't to blame for the genocide, her soul wasn't whole at the time." Coupled with Tyrande being given the explicit choice between vengeance and renewal is something of a Chekov's Gun: you don't mention it unless you intend to tread the alternative path.
At worst a Sylvanas redemption will look and sound a lot like the end of Warlords of Draenor ("Draenor is free!"), at best will be very satisfying, and is most likely to simply be decidedly average whilst robbing many players of their cathartic moment of justice for the many crimes and sins that can be heaped at her feet; complete soul or no.
@@KountKristyl I expect it to end up being unsatisfying. Anything else would be a welcomed surprise. 😔
Also, badass response man. I’m an anonymous voice in the ether and you still took your time to clarify and even be polite. Thank you for that. Just so you know, we are on the same page and I am in agreeance with your point. Many want retribution and it looks more and more like they won’t get it. I wonder if it’s possible to have both. Although, forgiveness and vengeance don’t get along well. If anything, this will be a great opportunity for the writers to showcase their skill.
I still think the idea of anima (AKA Soylent Green) is not a good thing for this game. No matter how you spin it it's a tad horrific. Elune was like "Well they're going to die so might as well send some fertilizer to my sister." 😳
Not really. It's just an energy created from all your experiences in life. It doesn't destroy your soul when it is extracted. This has been shown/explained numerous times.
Everybody: shits all about the story + its delivery
Taliesin: to fully appreciate the cinematic we need to look at the covenant campaign quests that take A SOLID HOUR to complete "big enthusiatic smile"
Yeah, most people that complain don't even played the game.
My opinion is that the story is actually quite decent if one's expectation is not to be handed on a silver platter the meaning and implications of each event, how the characters feel about them, how the *player* ought to feel about them, but rather to have something where going more in depth, piecing together information from multiple sources is an intended part of the experience.
Then again, this is evidently not what most people expect, and many things are down to personal preferences anyway (also, the overall negative sentiment surrounding WoW / Blizzard clearly affects the reception of everything regardless of the particulars).
@@taederias1804 if you need to go in deep depth to understand a cinematic. You've failed your cinematic...
@@Kyrrua_ You don't actually need to go in depth to understand the basics though, you just need to read more than every second word... Many of the things people complain about are really supremely obvious if one gives them the tiniest bit of thought. Going further in depth is useful for a *deeper* understanding and full appreciation, but not strictly *required*. If the sentence "In the wake of tragedy, I sent forth the cascase of souls." makes one think that Elune is saying she actively caused the burning of Teldrassil, the fault does not lie with the writers in that.
That aside, we clearly have different expectations of what cinematics ought to do. Cinematics, movies, storylines, art in general can have the purpose of making one think about them, rather than spoonfeeding the audience.
@@Kyrrua_ You really don't need to go in deep... but it seems for most people you need... maybe because those people don't give a shit and don't even play the game...
Nice, I didn't even pick up on the fact that Tyrande was the one to pull back from killing Sylvanas at the last second like that. That makes more sense than Elune doing it. TY
blizzard's message: "forgive and forget"
no.
kotick would be prime fuel for revendreth. so much pride, greed an avarice...this would overshadow even garrosh hellscream
this scandal should not be forgotten or forgiven, there must be an attonement
I just love how you two make videos like these. Your attention to detail, your infectious enthusiasm and your way with words. I don't really follow WoW content and haven't been for many years, but every so often come back to your channels for morsels like this.
Wait wait wait, you used the past tense part for the teldrassil thing and I agree, Elune obviously didn't fucking orchestrate the slaughter of the night elves - but then you ignore the future tense of 'she must choose' and imply she already chose. I don't actually buy that, unfortunately. The text IS pretty clear that she hasn't chosen yet.
So it then turns the Tyrande story into a bland cycle of revenge bad, which usually I'm okay with, but the reason revenge is bad is generally because it perpetuates an endless war of hatred and revenge. In Sylvanas's case, well, the whole Horde (minus the Sylvanas loyalist side which as far as I'm aware has no more writing in Shadowlands anyway) and the whole Alliance want her head. The Jailer clearly doesn't care about her well being (obviously) and let's be real, what she's done is absolutely heinous enough that it deserves retribution. Basically, no parties would be upset if Sylvanas would have died there.
If Blizzard wants to say that going through with it while hopped up on night warrior power would have turned Tyrande into Sylvanas, well... I just don't buy that?
It could be implied that she must choose fully implying that she's torn bewteen the two options so neither was happening fully. Powering up still but in the same line not taking it to the finish. Powering down in a way but not being released from her invocation of elune's power. She could have been in mental limbo til her resolved leaned one way or another.
@@kloaf1131 That seems like a reach to me. You don't lay your life down on the line without conviction, generally, and when she did her whole DBZ jump after Team Rocket's blasting off again Sylvanas, she straight up told Elune my life for hers (it was some gibberish madeup language, but the official video has subtitles that say my life for hers)
I mean, maybe you're right. But if that's the case they are really, really bad at communicating this stuff for your average player. I don't think you should need an hour of research and discussion to make sense of like, 6 minutes of cutscene.
@@alifewellwastedyt I don't think you need that long about it. But lore like this is entirely meant to spark discussion and thinking. Hand-fed lore is lazy writing.
@@alifewellwastedyt I'm thinking that Elune probably wanted Tyrande to make a choice after she saw what was at stake. Like you would hold a friend back from making a rash decision when they don't have all the information and are basically doing subsatnce abuse and are generally in a shitty place. I think Elune intervened this time and not others because the stakes are higher and she just lost a lot of her followers. If she can perhaps save one she'll try. Elune sounds like she's in a bad place emotionally. Except Tyrande wasn't ready to listen.
I personally find it interesting that Tyrande chose to let go of hatred after she felt Elune's pain. She mentions that the tear was both hers and Elune's which implies she felt Elune's emotions while Elune "possessed" her. To me this sounds like Sylvanas wasn't the real problem: Tyrande felt abandoned by Elune (like the Winter Queen), she felt betrayed by the poerson she trusted with her life and the life of her people. Feeling that Elune actually felt as much pain as her allowed her to let go. Feeling (and hearing/seeing?) that Elune did the only thing she thought she could do made Tyrande forgive Elune for not preventing the tragedy at Teldrassil. That's why Tyrande chose renewal over vengeance. It wasn't about Sylvanas. It was about Elune. And part of me wonders if Elune perhaps also stopped her because she knew that Sylvanas wasn't the problem. Or perhaps it was just that the power she was invocing felt that this was not really her goal. Not because Tyrande already chose to let go of vengeance but because vengeance on Sylvanas was never really the issue. Tyrande just thought it was.
I don‘t think that Tyrande changed her mind about Sylvanas to quickly.
You can be extremely angry and vengeful but still know that it is wrong somewhere deep inside your heart.
And those doubts are probably enough so that she didn’t kill Sylvanas.
Thank you so much for your videos!! I really love them and i wouldnt understand half of it without you :D
Can I just say, her makeup. Stunning. I live.
Yasssss Queen
Evi or Elune?
@@Carl5156 Evi is Elune confirmed
The anima drought was the implied tragedy, because that is what the Winter Queen was just talking about, what she was saying she needed aid for, that is what Elune was replying to. If Blizzard wanted the "Tragedy" to be the burning of teldrassil, Blizzard has entirely failed at communicating that in this dialogue.
On first experiencing this cinematic, I caught the "in the wake" bit and felt comforted in what she tried to do. However, as always, you catch all the nuances that I miss and make the cinematics more full. I so appreciate your takes on these things. Thank you!
Maybe I misunderstand their intent but I thought she was saying she sent the cascade of souls from the world tree not in a I caused the burning but in a I did save many of them since the tree was already burning and not lifting them all out of the disaster around them, even though she could have allowed more to be rescued she turned away and let it take them so the cries from Shadowlands and her sister's realm but hey how someone interpreted it is I guess up to the viewer until the writing clearly says yes or no on it from the makers of the game and that scene
I mean the obvious parallel is that Elune is the summer queen (our sun is a star), the great cycle also referring to the seasons as much as too life and death. Which would make the winter queen the naturey God of cold, darkness, and death and Elune the Naturey God of life, light and warmth, which feels pretty well conveyed here with how much colder and harder the winter queen is compared to how compassionate and emotional Elune is.
Evie is ONLY HERE FOR THE MONEY lmaoo that’s the only moment she shows up 😭 We miss youuu
She is obviously here for Idris Elba this time LOL
She's got an rl baby now, and that baby costs srs $$$
I love how at the end of the sponsorship segment she calls Tali peasant and quickly corrects it 😂😂
Yeah sure, ok. Tyrande killed hundreds of horde soldiers (regardless of their views on burning the tree) and mawsworn in her quest for vengeance, but when confronted with the architect of her people's doom, ONLY THEN did she "choose renewal" and let go of Elune's power. That's some hard copium you're smoking there, mate.
I see someone is just sticking with their knee-jerk reaction and isn't willing to consider other explanations. Go back to the wow forums mate.
@@seanh1321 OK explain it for me then, mate.
Tali's justification for Blizzard's crappy narrative is better than Blizz's own story writing.
you were so fast to assume that the " wake of tragedy " meant the burning of teldrasil but it could easily mean the tragedy happening at Ardenweald
Malorne walks up to Tyrande: "Hey. Got 20 minutes?"
I'm sure Rule 34 artists are on it, haha.
Im not super invested in the law, but could "in the wake of tragedy" not mean the tragedy of not enough "soul power" in ardenweald? That's how I understood it the first time I watched it.
same
The allegations you call “nonsense surrounding the game right now,” 3:00 are real, man. Maybe you should consider those words carefully.
Your theory of The Emerald Dream on Azeroth for me sounds like how Bwonsamdi has his part of Arden.
As like how The Winter Queen allowed him to have his part for the Trolls sort of thing, that Elune allowed the same.
The title of this video is a clickbait... Again... Seriously, we have no idea who and what she is. We heard her talk, nothing more. You'd think you'd learn after that time you put another clickbait title and had to change but guess not...
I love how you two explain things so clearly....haven't played up to the cinematic yet and figured all this out that explaining just by watching it once.
We already know Elune is fallible: Scythe of Elune storyline anyone?
The burning of Teldrassil feels far to egregious to be forgiven. They burned alive which is one of the most agonizing and frightening ways to perish, they feel completely abandoned and betrayed by the absence of Elune which is spiritual torment and then they get sent to the maw where a lot of them were twisted into abominations, writhing in agony until Tyrande can only spare them by literally sending them into oblivion. About 3 years go by real time and we get Tyrande finally coming into Shadowlands claiming long awaited retribution in my favorite cinematic moments ever with Nathanos and then at long last Sylvanas. It was so hype seeing Tyrande shatter Sylvanas' chains like finally someone that can actually challenge her after Sylvanas has essentially been Omni-man for too long but and even when Sylvanas tries to fly away Tyrande gives her a straight up "No." which felt so incredible but then when Tyrande is at the moment of justice Sylvanas just does the same thing yet again, overpowers Tyrande, gives another snide line and does her trademark puffing into smoke and gets away. I think the gripe I have with the new cinematic isn't anything directly with it but more the confirmation that it is over, Tyrande is done and Sylvanas got away with it and it really feels so unsatisfying especially after Tyrande's extremely hype build up
Now that I have abandoned wow due to blizz stuff, I'm still happy to have Tali as my liaison to the story
He is a great translator. He approaches things with curiosity and positivity. I'm cynical and I think everything will suck. I like watching this channel to see how rational people behave.
@@mugsgame_1526 yup it's better to have a considered and curious voice on the matter as opposed to most people's knee jerk reaction
agreed, even if the story has been terrible and the characters treated without a modicum of respect
I've been having very conflicted emotions about the handling of Tyrande's story arc since the night warrior began (loving some parts, feeling distasteful about others) but if this Elune moment is the culmination of it all, then by all means is it worth it. The handling of our goddess is excellent, and having started out as a Night Elf all the way from Warcraft III, this moment is beautiful. This portrayal of Elune is all I ever wanted from her revealing moment.
Brilliant. Only brilliant. And holy god the chills when she began to speak, the mixture of Tyrande's and Elune's voice, the music, the overall ambience and animations truly did everything it should and needed to do.
Unsurprising that you would go to bat for this terrible plot. Here's what people are actually mad about and not convenient strawmen for you to argue against: Elune is negligent for Teldrassil not because she set it up because she could've done more to prevent it. Instead she played favorites with Malfurion to prevent *him* from dying but just put every other elf, including *children* to sleep so they wouldn't die in pain from being burned to death. It's arguable that even her small interactions with Azeroth turned the tide in multiple battles, including the War of Eternity. So why didn't she do more to intervene here? Hey, some crazy Starfall magic like what Tyrande used to be capable of would've been amazing. Hell, why not invoke the Night Warrior before it got that bad? No, Elune just saves Malfurion so Tyrande can run off with him and let her people be - in her words - occupied as painlessly as possible. Night elves to exist to get fridged. Blizzard didn't think about the ramifications of the scene they wrote and are constantly trying to walk back what they wrote.
This 'renewal not vengeance' narrative is them trying to excuse Sylvanas' involvement. Hey, don't worry! All the night elves will be reborn with the Winter Queens magic so it's like nothing ever happened! Yaaaaay! It was all a dream! Nothing matters! No one has to be held accountable for the War of Thorns and the burning of civilians including children! Renewal, not vengeance guys. Oh, by the way. Let's take that to its logical conclusion. Let's have Sylvanas forgive Arthas for what he did. :) After all, he wasn't in control of his actions just as Sylvanas isn't culpable for anything she did in the past. Renewal not vengeance guys. :)
The whole, "Elune stopped Saurfang killing Malfurion" being treated like established fact is so weird. It is a complete misreading of the tone of the shirt story. There is no suggestion at ALL that Elune is powerful enough or has the inclinations step in and stop an invading army by herself. Her vulnerability in this cinematic only solidifies that
@@TaliesinEvitel How is it hard to imagine Elune intervening? Didn't she flat out make Tyrande invulnerable at one point? It isn't as if she did nothing for all of the War of Thorns. She put the elves to sleep to die painlessly. Why didn't she put the invading army to sleep? That probably would've been helpful. Can't do that though, sister needs souls.
If Night elves were made aware of this, and if this game was written by competent people, they'd abandon her en masse. I would be *offended* if I was a Night elf and Elune told me she favored me.
I totally get that Elune didn't know about the issue with the Maw. But if she heard her sister's cries that they were starved of anima, and sent a "cascade of souls" without checking if they'll actually get there, that smacks of needing some basic-level IT fault finding.
"There's no print jobs going through to the office printer."
"I got you, fam. I just sent 1000 more print jobs to the printer."
"But they still didn't come through."
"Oh..."
Whenever Elune speaks, i close my eyes and fantasize about a Tortollan Granny speaking and that, makes me happy.
Not sure I agree with the bit about Tyrande not wanting to kill Sylvanas, because she was trying to choke her out, imploring Elune to '...end this.', only for the night warrior fascade to wane.
how come you're not covering the lawsuit or what a bunch of woke fuck ups Activision boards and president drag down blizzards and warcraft?
It's oddly beautiful that Tyrande feels she need's Elune's fury to defeat Sylvanas but can't channel that fury unless Tyrande chooses to. When Tyrande says, "Mother Moon, do not forsake me, end this," Tyrande is pleading with herself for sustained rage she thinks she can rely on to come from Elune, when actually it is Tyrande's rage that falters and Tyrande's choice. Tyrande balking at the edge of vengeance is what makes her a hero, it is not what makes her weak. Even when Sylvanas deserves death for the horrors she's inflicted, Tyrande chooses, refuses, to be the avatar of that vengeance.
Also, I like the idea that Elune and the Winter Queen are the most... ambivalent of their respective realms. The Winter Queen clearly deals with renewal and rest, despite being committed to the realms of Death. Perhaps Elune represents the more melancholic and sorrowful aspects of Life. The idea that two sisters occupy the most transitory aspects of their purview is cool.
I'm still wondering what Elune's connection to the titans and the Light is. We know she has some connection to Eonar, since Eonar was hiding in Elunaria (and her tear was grouped with the Titanic Pillars of Creation), and we know the Tear of Elune is connected to the Naaru since it was used to connect to X'era. Why is Elune so connected to Light and Order? It would be like the Winter Queen being secret BFFs with Sargeras and the Void Lords.
Given that the Eternals predate the titans, it may be that Eonar chose to become essentially Elune's greatest follower, and her role as Lifebinder in the titans' Ordering of the worlds they found was to establish the links into the Great Cycle for the Wild Gods of these new worlds. When the Titans at last encountered a nascent world soul, (Azeroth) Elune might have given Eonar permission to more directly shape the corner of her realm that would be the Emerald Dream to ensure a faster turnaround on the Cycle for some of its most powerful defenders. Such a relationship may also explain Taliesin's remark about the apparent weakness of Elune- after Sargeras' betrayal of his Titan kin, it may have consumed much of Elune's power to shelter and sustain the fragment of Eonar, and she is just beginning to recover now that the Titans are restored.
I think the First Ones and the great ordering is centered around Life. So we know Light and Void were essential for the birth of everything else. Maybe Au’she isn’t Elune but is actually a Light aspected Life aligned being. Elune is Life aspected. Eonar is Order aspected and Life aligned. WQ is Death aspected but Life aligned. So far no hints on Void or Fel having Life aligned entities but it might make sense.
always love your cinematic deep dives you seem to find things no one else has
If people with platforms like yourselves stop speaking for WoW and its people, those people lose an ally and voice they might not otherwise have.
I watched a few yt-bers explain this cinematic and you did the best job at it, nice!
Thank you! My god. You wouldn’t think “in the wake of” would be so confusing. I know you were trying not to be condescending or pissy, so I’ll do it for you. FFS PEOPLE.
I mean, there are surely a lot of people with a bad reading/listening comprehension, who also just WANT to rant at every possible occasion, but there are probably also a lot of non-native english speakers that use the english client, because there is none for their language, or it sucks. So, yeah, people, make sure you know your vocabulary before ranting!
A lot of people understood it perfectly but also knew enough about the lore to know Elune frequently sends prophetic visions to her followers. She could have warned them and chose not to for her own agenda... Or just wasn't paying any attention to Azeroth because she doesn't care much.
The wake of refers to the Ardenweald drought (as a tragedy), not the burning of Teldrassylvanas
The problem is NOTHING about Tyrande has ever said mercy is an integral or core part of her personality. Starting with freeing Illidan, we have always seen her slay anyone that gets in her way relentlessly and without remorse. So the idea that some deep part of her didn't want to kill Sylvanas just doesn't fly to me. You could maybe argue a deep part of her knew she might die too and acted out of self preservation.
16:50 Taliesin, the fact that there is an anima drought in the first place is reason to believe something suspicious is going on. Unless Elune has no knowledge of how the machine of death works, it is systematically impossible for an anima drought to happen unless something went wrong. Did Elune just think anything relating to nature stopped dying and going to Ardenweald???
Or maybe she there are other dieties like Elune that "stopped" other souls from dying , similar to how she did with making Night Elfes into wisps.
From her perspective she just herd her sister's cries for help and she offered what she tought was a helping hand without looking into it.
@@Phoenixillusion18 hear her feelings but can't talk. Come on man he is gasping for straws here. How would WQ know her sister is helping? Go on feeling radar? Better yet if they are from different realms why would WQ even ask her for help? If you apply some logic to this messed up story it falls apart very easy. The whole eternal ones not knowing what is going on in their own realm is by far the stupidest plot I've seen so far.
If this cinematic proved anything its how easy it was to make elune not look like an incompetent idiot. She could simply send and avatar or an agent to SL. Don't tell me that can't be done cause titans, burning legion and light did it already, let alone dread lords.
Edit
Btw I'm not trying to attack you or anything but pointing out some valid point.
@@bastalam well look at how often the Titans agents they send get rogue and turn against their masters. I as titan would not trust one of my servants to be reliable.
@@williampaulsinghharika2627 I'm not quite sure what you are going for here. Given that Elune can out right possess the said agent/manifest through them the likelihood of what you said happening is very slim. If anything Tyrande should have been used as she was there already and possessed Elune's power.
@@bastalam but Tyrande went there at the beginning of Shadowlands, so Elune did not yet have an agent there as far as we know. Only her former nightwarriors who all seem to have broken all connections to her, after her power killed them. The stonewright even despises her.
The Night Warrior ended up being kinda pointless? It was built as basically going emo super sayen yet Tyrande basically did nothing and she was removed from its power without harm
Idk how everyone is missing that she still has the power, it just isn't threatening her anymore.
I love your positive vibes, it's always a pleasure to watch your videos, but especially the analysis! :)
What I don't get is if Tyrande says she was like a passenger and was not in control, Elune knew about the Night Elves going to the Maw before meeting the Winter Queen. Tyrande under the Night Warrior power, was in the maw and learnt about that, we saw that in the Ardenweald campaign. But in this cinematic she looks like she just found out, and I don't believe it's the case.
When I played through the cut scene, I missed the '...in the wake of tragedy' bit, so spent the night generally grumpy till I got up and rewatched the cinematic. Then all became clear. Praise Elune!
i'm very much aware of gods in fantasy verses with no care for the mortals plight and simply thought that "elune is one of those gods whose morality compass would be hard to swallow by a mortal". i also considered the great tragedy something else entirely.
all things considered even if elune was the very reason that the tree could not be saved - the fact that night elf souls would end up in ardenweald and live eternal among the endless forest should be considered a GIFT. ascension even.
this is simply put, writing that takes an open and inquisitive mind to truly appreciate - something that wow players in general lacks and blizzard in their part: is fairly well aware of. this is why wow's storylines are usually very, very brain dead. but even in these dark times you can still see the flickers of absolute brilliance. i truly wish these writers get to do whatever they want and not be told that "your writing is too big brain for the idiots you're writing for so please dumb it down" as often as they do at blizzard
I agree with Taliesin about Elune and the Emerald Dream, that means we surely go in this one in a future expansion, maybe after Shadowlands. If Elune is an eternal of Life , that means maybe there is a Pantheon of Life in the Emerald Dream.
I have been really enjoying the campaign so far, and am SO glad that I didn't get spoiled on any of it up till now.
Would it have changed your opinion on the story ?
@@calapsesathir4408 Not to butt in but butting in anyways (I can throw some more butts or butsin there if you neef btw), I used to think I did not mind spoilers. But the wow community is way too stupid about it and wrench spoilers from the game code before any of that content is even playable. It's half the reason I stopped following Bellular, he has been using that clip from Anduin on Bastion for over a month before 9.1 launched.
On that note, having started accompanying Taliesin only a few weeks ago, it's been delightful to watch his hot takes on the lore. Not only does he look at the lore from an angle that is very similar to my own, unlike Bellular, he is also sensitive about not spoiling the fun out of story content for his audience.
How would Tyrande choose not to kill Sylvanas if right before that she said "my life for hers" and when her powers were weakening she was begging Elune to not abandon her and to finish killing Sylvanas...
Another possible reading of things: Tyrande didn't make the choice, Elune's vengeane could not be invoked in the shadowlands against sylvanas for the same reason she is "trespassing" in ardenweald and the Queen is surprised to see her power there. She is not supposed to be able to influence the shadowlands. Thats why all she could do was send the souls to ardenweald, and why the other night warriors (who are not living anymore) do not have the powers of the night warrior any more.
It's an interesting speculation. My own actually was that Ysera's visions from the Dream about Tyrande being vital to Ardenweald's survival, were possibly seen by Elune as well; being a deity of the same power. And as such, Elune couldn't allow Tyrande to trade her life for Sylvanas'. But Taliesin's interpretation of her subconsciously not chosing vengeance, has merit too.
Tyrande Night Warrior did a lot of killing in the Shadowlands before engaging Sylvanas. Why could she?
the real reason is because the writers wanted the fight to happen, but needed a reason for sylvanas to still get away unharmed. There doesn't seem to be a coherent explanation justifying it though.
The primus tells us after completing the quest that the Winter Queen and Elune are bound together. The Winter Queen in the realm of death and Elune in the opposite realm of mortals.
Elune appears
Winterqueen loads her shotgun "get off my grove!"
WoW Texas Edition. ^^
As a fellow Texan. I approve this message.
But what about "Vin Diesel enters with a shotgun, you don't do that to family"
Fantastic critique, Tali. If people aren’t reading what’s in front of them... well, that’s their problem.
Kudos, too, to Blizzard writers for their inventive use of Celtic myth and symbolism. They have clearly highlighted that the cycle - the balance - has been broken and needs to be restored. Don’t take your eyes off The Gaoler and be ready for a bigger revelation than even this glorious cinematic.
One of the most important vids that you two have done. Good job. People really need to listen and read instead of jumping on the hate train, because of what they took the wrong way. Getting on the train because of Acti-Blizz being jerkoffs? Sure. But not because they got something wrong.
Yeah so nice that we need 3rd party to come with everything, because Blizzard can tell a well written story anymore.
The Jailer may be strong....but Family is stronger
And question, where the heck has Malfurion been while this mess with his wife has been going on? My husband would be staying with me, trying to talk me out of it. (as I hear the words "Tyranda, help me" from Legion, as an echo.)
He's playing FFIV
probably still recovering from Saurfang's axe
@@Astrogarlic He's playing FF 4, huh? Can't blame him. Pretty good game.
@@Katsutomai I mean, if your wife who has an inherent connection to the moon is struggling with a dark power and needs to let go of negative emotions to cleanse as a sign of personal growth then I guess he picked a pretty good game to get some pointers.
there's a throwaway line at the beginning of the expansion about the political faction leaders choosing not to go to Shadowlands because they don't want to risk creating a power vacuum if they can't make it back- Tyrande wasn't supposed to go either.
in my WoW tinfoil hat insanity headcanon, Elune is tired because she's having to hold a rogue titan still after we fell into a fever dream in Ny'alotha that made us believe we killed N'zoth with a friendship laser, and sylvanas had to save us by luring us to the shadowlands and all the time we've been here, N'zoth has been breaking yogg'saron and c'thun free from their prisons, so that when we get back we have full on void titan azeroth that we have to fight side by side with the now infinite dragonflight, since that story needed to come full circle anyways, and Nozdormu has a vested interest in avoiding the true end time.
I can't believe he's put out a 30 minute video praising this crap...
Maybe I'm not the target audience for this kind of content anymore or maybe I cannot stomach this guy pretending like everything is ok.
Regardless, I wish you the best, but I'm canceling my subscription.
Thank you for the entertainment over the past few years.
Ardenweald and the Winter Queen seem deeply rooted in Celtic mythology. The Winter Queen, Mab has a counterpart/ sister The Summer Queen Titania. Even if the WOW writers don't go that far the obvious reference between life and death are obvious. After all, the Emerald Dream is a place where life overflows.
Also, I think Elune was weak is simply the strain of being in a place she doesn't belong. Her realm is in the land of the living and she's piggybacked her way into the lands of the dead. She'd naturally have little real power there... but still enough to cause chaos to the minor players. But this also plays as to why she didn't know. A goddess of the living wouldn't necessarily know what is going on outside her realm as it would be outside her power.
"In the wake of tragedy" could also mean "In the wake of the anima drought" tho...
except that the winter queen is confirming that they are talking about the Great Tree
she says "I sent THE cascade of souls" - implying they were already going somewhere. The WQ confirming it was the Great Tree. I think even Tali missed that one, but got the interpretation right.
@@suzandouglass5241 absolutely THE and not "A cascade of souls" clearly means that Elune discovered the cascade of souls/burning of Teldrassil as it happened and she did not orchastrate anything
wich is no doubt, this.
Elune was most likely like "oh... I can stop it but... man my sister is really in need of souls... I just can't do it" and taliesin is just shilling again :D
@@arthurhki1471 she is only confirming that her sister's answer was indeed, The Great Tree burning. She is now looking back and saying "oh, so that was you".
As an OG nightelf player since BC, I couldn't hold back the tears seeing this cinematic.. it's just too beautiful
I feel like even if she sent the souls AFTER, in the WAKE of the burning, it makes her appear either very apathetic or incompetent. She didn't know the machinery of death was broken? Fine, fine. She was able to put the burning night elves to sleep, but not able to help in any more of a constructive way? I just feel like we're having to do a lot of homework to rationalize the decisions made. I hoped for more from Elune, and I feel that it's a little unfair to dismiss everyone who agrees with me as "pissy" or "butthurt". I didn't want a fallible goddess, for once.
I really enjoy your deep dives. One of your best right here in my opinion.
I've been playing WoW for a very long time now and I had a bad feeling about how the direction of the lore when Shadowlands was announced. "Going to the realm of death" seemed fundamentally dumb, and a realm of death which is just a mirror of the realm of life would seem to drain all meaning from "dying" in-game. I've questioned a lot of character decisions over the past couple of years, and storywise I've gotten quite tired of the "beloved figure X is corrupted, we must fight them to uncorrupt/redeem them" storyline. But of all the predictable or bad plot twists, this "big" Elune video is the worst I can remember. Elune heard the Winter Queen's cries, so she let Teldrassil burn? But she didn't know the Maw was gobbling them all up? Elune sounds like total garbage. The entire Night Warrior storyline seems pointless now that Tyrande has her blue eyes back and Sylvanas is still alive. What was the point of any of it?
There are very few threads of original WoW lore that haven't been teased out yet. Elune was one of the major ones, and it looks like they're about to pull that one completely out as a way to try to retcon the "Eternal Ones" as a Big Thing. I fully expect 9.2 will be Uncorrupted Uther + Varian pulling Arthas out of the Maw, cleansing him, and then the 3 of them go and Uncorrupt Anduin as the penultimate boss fight of the Jailer raid. After all, this entire expansion seems to be a way to revisit "Azeroth's Greatest Hits" by talking to dead heroes.
I normally love the Taliesin cinematic explainers, but this one I had to skip through because I found the cinematic itself so infuriatingly bad. It's well made but the story is atrocious now and along with the last couple cinematics it just makes me care less about the game and what happens in it. Blizzard is in serious trouble on multiple fronts. The mechanics and gameplay are bad, the story is bad, and the corporate culture is bad. Most of all it just seems like there's no respect whatsoever for the players themselves and the investments of time, emotion, and money that we've made.
There is nothing saying Eonar is not a sister in this family as well...
Tyrande's voice actor definitely is involved in the voiceover.
Elune = Summer Queen.
love how you go beyond expectations. you still find angles to explain stuff without joining everyone on their hate shitstorm
Let me offer a slightly different idea. The "tragedy" is the anima shortage that is killing Ardenweald. Elune can be, in that case, a factor in Sylvanas' decision to burn Teldrassil because that would release all the wisps and additional souls stored there. Just food for thought. :)
Elune and tyrannde supporters be like: 🤡🤡🤡
Just my two cents on the whole Blizzard thing.
Blizzard may profit from what you do indirectly, but what you do is for the fanbase.
I think the WOW players need you more than Blizzard ever will. Just be a voice, and be there for all the other voices.