How Arthas Finds Redemption, Uther's Fall & The Jailer's Triumph: Afterlives Cinematic Analysis
Вставка
- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- World of Warcraft Shadowlands has a release date of October 27th and four new animated cinematics to pave the way to pre-patch... AFTERLIVES, focussing on Maldraxxus and Draka, Ardenweald, Revendreth and Bastion, where we see what happened to Uther after meeting his fate at the hands of Arthas Menethil in Warcraft 3. His journey to join the Kyrion, and his battle to be free of the rage and drive for Vengeance that life on Azeroth burdened him with. But along with Devos, is it possible that Uther might just be playing straight into the Jailer's hands and doing unwittingly doing the bidding of the Maw? Join us for a special Taliesin cinematic analysis of Afterlives: Bastion.
+++ Taliesin & Evitel +++
Twitter: / taliesinevitel
Patreon: / taliesinandevitel
EU Gear: shop.spreadshi...
US Gear: www.designbyhu...
Twitch: / taliesinandevitel
Hello yes I call Andorhal Arendell and you're just going to have to be ok with that because I'm dyslexic and I've always called Andorhal Arendell, even before they used Arendell in Frozen apparently because I've never even seen Frozen. Basically it sounds like Disney stole my made-up name for Andorhal and yes I am going to sue them thanks for letting me know.
Tali did you notice Uthers evil grin as he dropped Arthas into the maw? find my comment on this video, i havent seen any one else comment on this aspect of the video yet.
You swapped left and right, too - but who doesn't?
Hey Talie did you notice how Arthas and Uther literally trade places. At the beginning it was Arthas with the cold unfeeling blue eyes by the end its Uther who now has cold blue glowing eyes
Towards the end you mentioned Sylvanas getting a chance at redemption by going to Revendreth, but...
When she threw herself off ICC at the end of wrath, everything that was explained after sounds an awful lot like she went straight to the Maw. Thinking more on this now she met 5? other women of sorts (not valkyre or maybe they were) and made that infamous deal to get her back to life(escaping the Maw)
There are more questions that need answers now.
Thanks for maing these vids you 2 are awesome, and funny.
Congrats on player 3, and looking forward to a whole lot more T&E
Alright, Tali ... I guess this time, I'll ....
**puts on sunglasses **
... let it go.
"If he's Invincible, how can I see him?"
..........
I dearly hope there's a special place in Hell waiting for you, Tali.
"We may never know, random viewer. I intend to meme forever."
Man I laughed so hard when I first heard that. Your comment pairs perfectly to it too :)
The maw is waiting for him
Crying after Invincible did not drop....again!!!!!!!
I can see it because I have it, but I don't mean to be rude about it :P
I think more likely Troll level 8/10
So, right after Arthus dies, Uther takes him and tosses him into the Maw, back to the Jailer.
At that same time, Sylvanas kills herself, and the Jailer contacts her, making a deal with her.
"I have claimed the soul of Arthas, who you can forever torment... If you enact my plans for me on your realm."
Sounds pretty legit to me.
that actually does.
Except that in Edge of Night Sylvanas meets Arthas's soul and thinks that if she weren't being tormented she would pity him. At this point, she's way past that. It would be funny if she was involved in getting him out of the Maw rather than keeping him in.
Arthas was also motivated by “justice” when he chased Mal’Ganis to Northrend and took up Frostmourne.
yes!
truth to be told he showed them justice. The Justice Of The Grave (Wrathgate Ref)
Very true, go play the culling of stratholme dungeon and Arthas is kinda cringe obsessed with mal ganis at the end
Basically, the concepts of justice and vengeance are not so different, both originating from trade. Mercy, however is a superior concept and a subsidiary of Love (which is God).
Nope.
"Remember what he did..." that line shows how far she has strayed from the path. No longer trying to get Uther to forget his past, but instead reinforcing it.
I was surprised at this moment.
If all I expected her to try and *change* his mind but then she reinforced it?
Dat blue Wench fell to the temptation of worldly grudges way too easily.
Yeah. Clear manipulation on her part. She knew that would convince him when he hesitated. All in order to follow what she though was right, returning an agent of the maw back into it.
Okay but how would any of you react if he was holding Sylvanas instead of Arthas?
@@FreedomAndPeaceOnly Typical to see in Light v.s Dark storytelling. The light or good always has absolute faith in the system. When the system becomes doubted, a person starts to corrupt. They usually will hinge off of how dark/evil isn't playing by the rules and the stakes have changed. To Devos, it was that the Maw's influence not only has escaped but has also infiltrated a mortal realm.
This is how Sargeras fell
This is how Arthas fell
This is how Devos fell
This is how Uther fell
I am personally excited because this is just one slice of how discord has been sewn into the Shadowlands, just wait till we see what is happening with the other areas. I am still holding out and saying that Sylvanas saw this starting to happen and that's why she broke the veil between the two realms and allowed the Champions of Azeroth to enter the shadowlands as mortals.
Guys i have a theory. I think she gets corrupted when she saw the memories of Uther. Maybe that was the plan of the Jailer? Break Uther soul so he brings the darkness into Bastion.
4:26 "We've had these kind of animated series in the buildup to WoD, Legion, and BFA, and they have all been brilliant."
This is Burdens of Shaohao erasure, and I won't stand for it.
OMG, MY GUY! I had almost completely forgotten about them! I stand with ya.
"There is no evil in Bastion" sounds a lot like "There is no war in Ba-Sing-Se"
My exact same first thought when I heard that.
There more than likely wasn't.
But then Davos became corrupted and they began to feed souls directly to the Maw, thereby making it stronger and spreading corruption through Bastion as a result.
It was never their place to play judge, jury and executioner, which is what Davos did, they were meant to ferry souls , and let the process work things out.
Who knows, by directly feeding the Maw, they probably became it's unknowing servants.
So , like in the Bible, you have a rebel, corrupt "angel" challenging "god" for leadership of the host.
That's probably why the Harbinger disappeared
Davos and Uther confronted her when she was alone. But like Sylvanas, they had a trump card up their sleeves.
@@dustinmaxwell259 she pretty much overreacted
honestly, after watching this short, to me it feels like a total character assassination of Uther and convinces me that they're actually the most morally evil covenant.
"the Shadowlands, where breathing isn't really a thing." first chance I get I am finding a puddle in Shadowlands to drown my character in to prove you wrong.
In-game:
Me: "How vindictive do you have to be to LITERALLY die to prove a point?"
You in ghost form: [Spooky echo] "I fucking told him so, in his face" [holds crotch]
Tali, they didn't grab Uther by the back of his head. He got the cradle. Because the player is trash in comparison. Lol
Maybe they're still salty about what happened with the last mortal ingrate they treated with any dignity whatsoever.
I really like Devos in this whole thing actually. Everything else was super well done but she was a surprisingly awesome addition to the story
I think the same. This is the introduction of a new character very well done.
I do like her a lot but my girlfriend who wasn't watching asked me if that was sylvanas talking and I gotta agree their voices are veeeerry similar
But blizz sucks at writing ... People dont know shit blizz knows what there doing.
Devos became a plotdevice pretty fast.
I don't buy it... a Kyrian becoming corrupted just by a single mortals _"worst day memory"._
She existed for who knows how long but one salty Bluether was enough to restart her bloodthirsty periods?
Na~ I call no invincible drop on this!
i rly dont want to kill here AND i swear if i have to kill Uther i sue Blizzard.
"Sorry it's a bit echoey" - Taliesin, speaking with perfect clarity, 2020.
It is a little echoey but not too bad.
It's a bit echoey
I have seen UA-camrs with studios more echoy. I gotta give him props on his choice for recording this.
Same energy as everyone on the Internet who says, "Sorry, English isn't my first language," with perfect grammar and spelling.
It was a bit echoey on my computer, with the bass. On my phone, its perfect.
In the start Devos wants him to forget his mortal life, later she says "REMEMBER what he did"
I think she got corrupted by the Jailer. Bringing the broken soul of Uther into the Bastion i think of it like darkness itself has come to Bastion. So when Davos sees his memories she become corrupted
Well she's exiled no need to be a good girl anymore
"... we will become as vile as the orcs."
"Oh my god, Uther! You can't say things like that anymore!"
#OrcLivesMatter
the snowflakes on twatter will get offended!
At the time he said it, the Orcs were still corrupted by the demon blood IIRC. So at the time, they were legit vile. Even Saurfang agrees.
*_" What do you have to say for yourself now, Arthas? "_*
*_" Glad you could make it Bluether. "_*
*_" Oka'y - into the maw you go! "_*
Look, he was from a different time. That's how everyone talked back then.
"Within every good there is capacity for evil; and within every evil, good."
That's all it comes down to.
About why Devos decided to sent Arthas directly to The Maw...
What if, by doing that, the Arbiter never finds out about the influence the Jailer has in the mortal realm?
Nothing to do with this video but I just wanted to say after 10 years I finally got Invincible yesterday tyvm
Yo, grats!
The final scene also reminded me of "The Lord of the Rings" when Elrond is telling Isildur to cast the ring into the fire. Except in LotR casting it in would remove the corruption, in this its the opposite.
I LOVE Arthas as a character... I mean he can be seen as a warning for humanity. His fall was initially him trying to push his people up. He continued down his path knowing it may destroy him but it may save his people. That was his motivation but eventually turned to vengeance. Just like Uther he lied to himself long enough for Frostmourne to corrupt him and as soon as Frostmourne corrupted him I just can't hate Arthas for anything that happened afterwards. I not only believe Arthas deserves his chance at redemption, but I would absolutely love to go on that redemption arc with him. He is such a big part of our players lives and as someone who plays a toon now who actually defeated the Lich King in Wrath and watch Arthas regain his humanity just before dying... I would just love to see him turn back to the side of good. Same for Uther btw I freaking love Uther.
Arthas is an amazing character man. Remember that when he was still the Lich King gone or not he kinda still helped everyone. He stopped the scourge so they cant overrun everything on Azeroth. He slowed them till the champions come and stop his nightmare (kill him). Im saying nightmare because right when frosmtourne is destroyed and the helm is taken off him, his soul returned to his body. It was Arthas again. He became free of this nightmare. He asks his father "is it over" like all this time he was trapped inside and couldnt do anything. Remember the words he said before taking Frostmourne. "I will give anything or pay any price if only you (Frostmourne) will help me save my people". How can people say that he is bad idk. He clearly sacrifised himself so his people can be safe. Unfortunatly the sword corrupted his soul and he became everything he fought against. The road to hell is paved with good intentions as the saying goes ...
@@kristiyangrigorov5232 True that... too many UA-cam videos are smashing Arthas saying he was a jackass to begin with. I just cant agree with that.
@@kristiyangrigorov5232 Does it involve bringing Arthas back to life and help stop Sylvanas or something?
im so glad you put that invincible joke into the story
Even more proof that the selfless part of Uther made it to Frostmourne is that the Uther we met in Wrath actually forgave Arthas and chose to keep the memory of him when he was a Paladin and tried to help his people, he didn't show any hate towards him whatsoever, he even realised that the Lich King is not the Arthas he knew "No Jaina, Arthas is not here, Arthas is merely a prescence inside the Lich Kings mind". The Uther in the Shadowlands or that part of him if you will probably doesnt even know whats going on with Arthas, as far as he knows Arthas just went crazy with power by picking up a cursed blade and know he leads the Undead, he has no idea about him being controlled by the LK and all that, the Uther inside Frostmourne learned and understood.
tzo anast this. i’m a bit surprised that people are feeling surprised by thinking arthas wasn’t in control after this cinematic-we knew arthas wasn’t in control since wrath, if not earlier when he fused with the lich king and put the helmet on.
@@scope1812 We knew he wasn't in control since he killed freaking Mal'Ganis in WC3, the game straight up tells you that he wandered the frozen wastes all alone and was driven mad by the blade (I think people don't really remember that because it was just text on a black screen and not a cutscene or anything similar) and then when you start the Undead campaign Tichondrius says "The blade is empowered by stealing souls, yours was the first one it claimed" to which Arthas replies "Then I'll make do without one, what is the Lich Kings will?". So, he lost half his soul or a part of it at least to Frotstmourne when he picked it up and driven mad after that, yeah fair to say he wasn't the same person at all, and he changed even more when he put the helmet on.
I personally think Uther didn't split into different personalities. His Shadowlands part just stayed with same mindset he had at the moment he died, while Frostmourne Uther was with Arthas for a long time. Frostmourne Uther forgave Arthas, while Shadowlands Uther thinks of Arthas as pure evil still.
I agree with all of you. I believe the game made clear Arthas was not in control. And although what he did in Stratholme was seemingly 100% on his own free will and deserves no medal of honor, I still don't think is reason enough to go straight to the Maw. What he did till that point was to save his people, at least in his mind. Then he was driven mad by revenge and later on the blade and helm until what became of him was just a puppet, not the real Arthas.
I seriously hope Blizz remember all of what they set up in the past and not just throw it in the bin.
@@mihailopetrovic9467 Could be because Uther inside Frostmourne might have realised what's going on. The Uther in SL doesn't even know what the LK is.
Arthas likely had one of the most Anima Rich Souls in History considering how many Souls he stole to empower himself. The Maw is starving of Anima, Souls go somewhere else and have their Anima siphoned off before going to the Maw. Arthas was a fresh, Anima Rich Soul, the first to go to The Maw in Eons. The Jailer getting Arthas' Soul was likely a very huge mistake.
Weren't the souls Arthas stole stored in Frostmourne and were released when it was shattered? That's what happens at the end of WotLK.
@@jakewright1932
For what i understand, its a bit of both, the souls are stored in Arthas, while using FM as a means to steal said souls.
In the dialogue between Tirion and Mograine, Mograine says
"The Ebon Watcher says: You are dealing with a being that holds within it the consciousness of the most cunning, intelligent, and ruthless individuals to ever live."
Sure he can mean Nerzul and Arthas or he can mean the souls he absorbed.
(Head cannon) I believe Arthas can store and feed on the souls by using FM, like a symbiotic relationship. So when the sword is broken the souls inside FM are idd freed, but not necessarily the souls that Arthas had already consumed.
@@hisokamorow6709 I disagree. The Ebon Watcher's dialogue talks about the most cunning, intelligent, and ruthless individuals. Arthas mostly killed and consumed innocents and paragons of good with Frostmourne - King Terenas, Uther, Saurfang the Younger. They don't fit the category of cunning and ruthless - I'm pretty sure Morgraine was referring to the Helm of Domination. Sylvanas fits those categories but was not consumed by Frostmourne, instead she was made into a banshee and broke free of Arthas.
ua-cam.com/video/UY3oZH6Piz4/v-deo.html
King Terenas says "Though my soul was one of the first to be devoured by your evil, there are thousands more bound within this blade, and they cry out for release."
Not only does that confirm that the souls Frostmourne claimed are stored in the sword itself, but also that souls "devoured" by Arthas' "evil" was also stored in the blade, as Terenas himself was among the first to be "devoured" and was among the souls to be broken free once Frostmourne was shattered - it is King Terenas that resurrects the players in the raid, so I don't think that Arthas had consumed his soul as you would imagine, otherwise he would not have been able to be freed.
@@jakewright1932
Makes sense, then the absorbing part was only done to Arthas, so Mograine then is referring to Nerzul + Arthas.
OP Points its not completely wrong tho i found this
"Great or important souls-like those of Arthas, Garrosh, or Varian-bear more Anima than others"
worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23187291/world-of-warcraft-whats-next-panel-recap
So sure, he aint charged with the countless souls FM had trapped, but he still is a chunky anima boi.
Watching Tali do these cinematic deep dives has become one of my favorite parts of the pre-expansion hype. Thanks for making these, Tali!
did any one else see just after uther drops arthas into the maw and the frame shows uther slowing backing up into the air, there is a very very subtle grin his mustache and mouth make, it looks very evil how the grin looks, like an evil joy. the time on the original blizzard video is between time stamp 6:33 to 6:36.... its very subtle. on Tali's video (this video) its at time stamp 29:45 to 29:47. re watch those few seconds and tell me if you dont see a very subtle shift of his mustache in what looks like a very evil grin.
dude you're right :O creepy stuff...
Good eye man, totally missed it until you mention
Well, consider this: When it shows Uther's soul being ripped out by frostmourne, it splits into two pieces. One is the blue tinted one we see in bastion and the other golden tinted one, kind of disappears. So, is it possible that the golden tinted version of his soul that was severed from his body could be the pure side that followed the light, and the other half is the half that was "corrupted" by frostmourne. Meaning that the Uther that we see here isn't the same Uther we've come to know and love. IF that is the case, and all of the souls that were taken by frostmourne are "corrupted" then were going to have a problem.. because Arthas severed MANY souls.
@@atlasthegoon1643 Impossible because the blue one is absorbed into Frostmourne itself. That part of his soul is trapped until Arthas' death at the top of ICC so there is no way it could be inside Frostmourne AND in Bastion at the same time.
So what we are about to see is Uther becoming the evil and Arthas redeeming his self. I'm not surprised because we all knew Arthas is the main protagonist in Warcraft. Just a little bit of plot twist.
Is it worth discussing that she says an agent of the Maw is running free "on a mortal world" rather than specifying Azeroth? More evidence that The Shadowlands covers planets untold rather than just our small bubble.
i think we already knew that
it's already been confirmed shadowlands is the afterlife of EVERYONE EVERYWHERE
About the helmets representing the "set-in-stone" Kyrian path: Thanios (or whatever his name is) is the best example of this. His helmet is so tight that he literally can't see a thing!
well, he cant see anything else then the path in the first scene, where he gives a stern warning to devos not to question the path, but in the scene where devos adresses the archon, we can actually see his eyes .- "ALL EYES SHALL BE OPEN"
and ...he is the parangon of wisdom... yeaaah
Right after I watched this cinematic I verbally said, “I’m going to need an analysis video from T&E for this one.” Thank you! Now I understand this so much more.
Here's me calling my shot.
The Jailer was jailed in the Maw for reasons we may not know for a while. My guess is the same as many, that he is one of the first ones, which like Azeroth and Elune, have been jailed by the most prolific imprisoners in all of the lore, The Titans. Why... dont know for sure, thats not for today. Back to Shadowlands.
The point of the Shadowlands is to collect the anima from the souls of the living. No Anima is ever meant to go to the Maw, or else the Jailer would get it. Evil souls go to Revendreth and have their chance to change or have their anima siphoned and they are then sent to the Maw, depleted.
The Dreadlords, retrieved the helm of damnation, armour, and Frostmourne to corrupt Arthas with the power of the Jailer. Arthas is a good boy at his core. At his most evil he was trying to help. It was the Helm and Amour that corrupted him against his better will. They gave him a weapon that would upset the machine of death by potentially creating a broken soul that would be unable to fit within the system. This eventually core fruit in Uther. Sylvanus likely also plays a part in this or was just seen as a useful tool, doesnt matter either way.
When Arthas was cast into the Maw, without being judged or depleted of Anima, of which he has A LOT of, he gave the Jailer all the power he needed to start working. The initial investment. Perhaps even, all the souls that Frostmourne collected were also collected for the Jailer, but were lost when it shattered.
I am not sure how all this works with the greater story of The Titans and The Void, but I will admit I lean towards Pyromancer's theories regarding the Titans and all that. I think the defeat of Argus was what broke the machinery of death. Again, not sure why.
If Arthas had gone to venthyr, and after his purification somehow gotten to Bastion, I can reasonably assume the first words he'd hear as he got there would be
"Glad you could make it, Arthas"
Afterlives: Bastion provided me a new desktop background pic. I bet y'all can guess which part it is: the contrast between Arthas and his wave death X Uther representing humanity with those farms behind him.
The amount of desktop wallpaper-worthy screen grabs in this is insane
I love these shorts. I find the theory about no one being sent directly to the Maw normally interesting. I'm not sure Sylvanas deserves redemption at this point but if she had died permanently after breaking free of the Lich King she would have.
I think Uther's actions don't change his legacy because he only had half his soul when he cast Arthas into the Maw; had his soul been whole I don't think this would have ever happened.
I'm really looking forward to the rest of these - and your take on them. Great job as usual :)
Devos screaming "The path is flawed!" sounded a lot like Sylvanas. Same voice actor?
that's what i think too. i also think she voiced the archon as well.
I believe you are correct, sounds much like her.
I was pretty certain Devos was voiced by the same actor as Sylvanas. Although I also thought Uther sounded like the same voice actor as Arthas too. It's a small world in Blizzard voice acting.
@@TheSurfingCat Uther and Arthas are indeed voiced by the same guy, Michael McConnohie. He's also Deathwing and was Kel'Thuzad during WC3 and vanilla WoW.
It is Patty
The reactions on Afterlives really functions like a maturity-check on our WoW UA-camrs! We get everything from "justice hell yeah!!" to Sage Daddy Taliesin :D
"I was right, it's no big deal" This is why I come to this channel. Actually lol'd.
"If he's invincible, how can I see him?" I don't see what you did there.
Hate you. Hate you both.
@@vfaulkon
One of the best comments I've ever seen on UA-cam. (golf clap)
Didnt he said invinsible? 😂 because invincible and invisible are two different meanings
@@kristiyangrigorov5232 Thank you. That is the joke.
The key takeaways from this cinematic are what Uther's final thoughts were "light save my soul", the splitting of his soul into two and the effect that the "light side" of Uther had on corrupting Devos. More foreshadowing for the Light as a force of potential evil within the Warcraft Universe.
I was thinking this too, maybe not as far as light as a potential evil, but that the light has bad sides like the void does ie. a relentless pursuit to right an injustice and to rid the world of an evil, especially without any balance or tempering from other human qualities leads to harmful actions being taken. Arguably same could be said of Turalyon's actions in the latest book as well.
@@4F0xSake "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".
@@TheSurfingCat I fuckin love you right now
That would be utterly retarded in every single way imaginable...honestly if that happens i would quit wow for good. lord knows the storys have been utterly garbage for a while now. the light isnt evil stop believing the old gods they lie and they lie alot lol
@@noigan3925 the void can be good? have you not played in every single example with the void bad shit happens...
Back in MoP, Taran Zhu said "Every reprisal is itself an act of aggression, and every act of aggression triggers immediate reprisal". He was referring to the war between the Horde and Alliance, but I get the feeling that that statement remains true for a great deal of the conflict that exists in Azeroth as a whole.
Can we just talk about the voice acting when Uther screams in pain? Jesus I felt that sword
The cinematic is absolutely fantastic and the art is outstanding, but I also want to highlight how incredibly well laid out your discussions are! You are so thorough, and I genuinely enjoy the wit and lighthearted comedy thrown in. Your passion is so evident, love it!
I feel so dumb I only got the King Arthur connections whilst watching this deep dive. Arthas and Uther, Arthas pulled frostmourne from the stone plinth. The fatherly bond between them. Then you have Arthur and Uther pendragon, father and son, with Excalibur being pulled from the stone.
Kel’thuzad was Arthas’s Merlin.
....omg. I've played WoW for like 14 years and I never made that connection. -.-
Very impressed with you analysis Taliesin. I've watched the cinematic a couple of times, now I see what I missed. Thank you!!
"The moment he falls," - a line by Devos about Arthas is the moment Uther begins his fall too.
I spot another cultural reference! When Devos touches the wound left by Frostmourne it's reminiscent of St Thomas touching the wound of Christ and then believing. It's almost like an inversion of that story, in that it sets Devos and Uther AWAY from peace and salvation (and it also fits in that Uther is kind of a sacrificial father figure / betrayed mentor in the lore)
When Arthas said "I see only darkness before me"
And we see Devos facing him, might point out that she already turned dark
Nice one. I think she got corrupted when she saw Uther's memories. Maybe that was the Jailer plan. Break Uther's souls to two one in frostmourne the other one in Bastion. Corrupt his soul so he can bring the darkness into the Bastion itself and corrupt the angels. Just another theory :D
My first and only Warcraft game has been wow. I've been playing since vanilla, as a kid I'd hear Uther all the time but never really got a full story out of Uther. This video made me love Uther, totally rolling bastion and I can't wait to see more of this story. Thanks for the breakdown
The moment where Uther throws Arthas into the maw and it shows him standing with his outstretched hand, his eyes glow with complete inhumanity, just like Arthas looked down on Uther at the start of the cinematic. It was a really cool way to see that their places had been reversed, and Uther had become something that he hated. Really great cinematic, awesome analysis!
I'll never forget the patron meetup in 2018 when I got to talk to Terran for a couple hours. At the end, he even hugged me. Still the best time I had at BlizzCon ever.
To me, the big question is: why did the Light choose to save the vindictive side of Uther and completely forsake/reject his "human" side? Was it just pure rng like "uhh... so the good side went into Frosmourne and the bad side got saved?... well shit happens I suppose" or was it more a deliberate choice? To me this shows some theme that Blizz is portraying about the Light. The Light though it's true it brings healing, hope and salvation, it's also full of pure blind vengeance. Maybe the Light considered that side of Uther the side worth saving and the other one useless to it's own purpose... or maybe this is what, in the end, Light does to every single one of his followers? Is it possible that the only thing that stops a "follower" of the Light to basically turn into a tyrant and go full "inquisition mode" throughout the Universe is their own "humanity"? Is it possible that the closest you get to the Light then fanatism and blindless takes over completely over your soul and you just become a Light "berserker" or something like that? I remember the whole story regarding Yrel for example, how does such a noble soul go from that and then to becoming a Light tyrant ruler completely bent into the path of "you either choose to accept the Light into your heart on your own or I will use my hammer to accept it for you?"
Perhaps the Light isn't as flawless as it pretends to be.
*Light hears a prayer.*
"I'm on it, Uther!"
*yoink!*
"That felt.. lighter... than a soul usually does. Aheh. Light-er. I kill myself. Ah well, prolly nothing!"
Well, half of Uther is still Uther. And that half was there when he made good choices as well
Maybe they didn't know... they got the soul and didn't notice he wasn't complete? Maybe the sword cut out the best part of every soul it ever killed leaving them irredeemable and, eventually, fit only for the maw. Without their better half, souls have no chance to repent or ascend.
Humam side=curseofflesh=yogg=void
Are we certain the light actually was the influence here? Uther mutters the prayer just before he is struck down, but if so much of what follows(and will follow even that) seems to be reliant on Uther being in The Shadowlands is it possible that the sword can do what it wants to soul and The Jailer directed it to split the soul in this fashion?
If this split is entirely Uther's will or his final request then that seems a bit much for the Jailer to have orchestrated/predicted. A soul split a certain why by an agent and possibly a weapon he controls nearly seems rather more plausible.
The colouring would seem to indicate the duality of his soul, but all souls turn blue when going into Frostmourne as far as I can tell which tends to point to the colour not being indicative of the nature of your soul simply the destination or nature of what is drawing upon it. That could mean the gold side is simply a reflection of where he is going as the blue is always the reflection of a soul entering Frostmourne no matter their purity.
That said I am not fully up on a ton of aspects and perhaps we've seen Frostmourne devour souls of a different colour/aspect?
I'm glad you pointed out the soul splitting tali. So many people cry lore retcon without seeing the whole picture.
I mean... as usual with this style of thing, massive fail at understanding and communication. The Archon could have been a bit more explicit, it's obvious Devos had some hardcore worries and going "Worrying, this will be looked into, go back to helping that soul." or "This will ne looked into, you are becoming too close to this soul another watcher will be assigned." I mean I'm kinda getting tired of massive problems coming up in a lot of fiction because someone could not bother to say more than "STFU, this is not your problem."
This usually happens a lot in real life also :(
Ah, the good old "idiot ball", ie. when a character needs to be an idiot for the plot to happen.
I think it says that Bastian Covenant is just terrible... i disliked their part of the storyline and grateful when I moved onto other covens.
Exactly, the Archon totally could've been like."Devos, I understand your concern and your worries. I assure you, I will look into this -personally-, but you are becoming too close to this soul. Take a step back, go mentor someone else for awhile, then I may have some business for you later."
You know. REASONABLE STUFF.
@@bonefetcherbrimley7740 while I agree a more sensible approach from Arbiter would improve the whole situation, Devos was way past the point of reasoning. It is like in every cop movie ever, where the chief tells the protagonist to chill and step down... it never works.
The Sorting hat line. By far the best. Good laugh thx Taliesin!!!
The place of Light in this cinematic really struck me...
Visually, first. Be it the golden sky of Lordaeron in the opening or the large strays of light that plunge into the Maw at the end.
Or thematically. The prayer of Uther. His golden half-soul going to the shadowlands. His servitude to the light at the exchange of a glimpse of hope to get retribution, blinding him to the truth.
Light is clearly making some moves.
After all, light struck a deal with the enemy of all...
The use of lighting is definitely a sign of Teron Gregory's work as the director. Very well done as all his cinematics are.
I really hope Arthas is only a cameo if he's seen at all. Honestly I could see it being like in ICC where you hear Bolvar getting tortured in the background, only with Sylvanas torturing Arthas.
Hmm, I do understand Uther. Having gone through terrible things in my own life, and getting no justice in return, I desired that more than anything. Not vengeance, but the complete lack of justice was something that ate at me entirely. It made me question the very existence of justice in our world today.. so yeah, he does desire justice, I can empathize with that 100%, but maybe this Devos is making him take vengeance and muddying up the waters of what he really wants.
Well, even at the end of his mortal life, he wished literally for Arthas to go to a special place in hell... and when he had the chance to make that happen, Uther took it. Devos bears responsibility as well, since she showed Uther the way to do it and gave him the means, but right up until the end, it's the worst of Uther's nature tragically overcoming the just and good part of him. Like in real life, sometimes the trauma of abuse can make someone into an abuser themselves. Especially if they don't get the help they need - which in Uther's case was supposed to come from Devos, a job at which she failed. They both wanted to do good, but their passion lead them to doing evil.
These shorts are getting better and better with each expansion and I love it. Went straight to the Blizz Store to buy their print of Uther in Kyrian form!
I'm sure others have noticed this but I've yet to see anyone mention it and I was almost certain Taliesin would but did not...
The name Devos is pretty similar to Devil or Devils. In addition comparisons can be drawn to Devos and Lucifer, Satan's name before his fall.
Lucifer was an angel whose light was second only to Jesus, but through decisions of his own and disagreements of some sort with Heavenly Father he fell from grace and eventually was kicked out of Heaven and became the devil.
Devos as mentioned in the cinematic was a Paragon which as you'll find out is about as high as you can get as a Kyrian without being the Archon, which is the supreme leader of the Kyrian. She disagreed with the Archon's decisions and rebelled against the path and as Taliesin did mention acts in a manner similiar to the devil by encouraging Uther to do wrong. This of course leads her as well to fall from her former grace and glory.
Now Lucifer was kicked out of Heaven in the end because he wanted to force people to be good by taking away their agency. Devos instead tried to force her own Judgement upon Arthas which she was not authorized to give.
Obviously there are differences in the two but it makes me wonder if we won't see more similarities in the future...
Interesting fact: One of the ways to interpret Lucifer from latin to english is "light bringer". Like Uther...
very nice comparison, but we can see that archon has an ego and is hurt when devos questions their path etc
so just any fanatic religion they are flawed and hypocrites.
in regards to Thomas' comment. Lucifer was the head of praise and worship in Heaven but somehow (I'm not clear on how; not a Bible scholar) he started coveting God's power and wanted the same power--even though he was second in power already. These are very interesting--and, since Bastion is the closest to the Christian idea of Heaven--very fitting parallels.
@@Ekinoxe
more accurately "light bearer" (if the subtle difference matters, I don't know....)
@@draykeblack7850
I've just always heard it translated as "light bearer"...
Your speculations get me hyped man! Im excited to see how Arthas is feeling, being free of Nur'Zhul and all and not being able to speak yet, just being cast into the pit of hell.
Unpopular opinion: Arthas was heading straight to Bastion.
Every act he committed prior to falling to the corruption of Ner'zhul was an act of incredible sacrifice in his eyes.
he had to purge Stratholme to save the heartlands, he had to burn the ships and damn himself with his men to save Lordareon from Mal'Ganis, and he had to give up his own soul to make sure he would see victory.
Also, There was a small part of the good Arthas left in him holding back the scourge from wiping out the whole world. I think thats what the angel chick was scared of the most. Him going to Bastion.
in WotLK you do learn that yeah the Purge was a gruesome but necessary action, you find a dying paladin called Bridenbrad who got infected with the plague of Undeath and take a stab at trying to Cure him so he wont go all zombie, first you make your merry way to Moonglade and collect acorns rich with the power of the Emerald dream. they give him a bit more time but the Plague is still gurgling around in his guts, so you go Ask the Dragon Queen of Life herself to help, and Alex does by giving you flowers infused with her life fire, it burns some of the Plague out but its still in there, hes gon die and be a zomzom and theres jack all you can do about it, so what you do after that is say Hi to some Naa'ru who pull his soul out just before he turns with the words: "Fear not, young one, for this crusader shall not taste death.
In life, Bridenbrad was the bearer of great deeds. Now, in passing, he shall taste only paradise. The light does not abandon its champions."
the only way to prevent the curse of Undeath is to kill the victim before they turn, If Arthas hadn't Purged Stratholme it's very possible it could have spread over the entirety of the Eastern kingdoms as we know them like wildfire through a field of dry grass.
You are probably correct on that one, considering his soul was actually trapped the entire time in frostmourne and he was still trying to fight his evil side, held the scourge at bay and helped the players to defeat him ( remember the little boy in IceCrown giving quests). And the moment he was finally free from Frostmourne this asshole came and threw him in hell...
@@CappieBG oh yeah that one where you find his literal heart in the basement of the citadel, and the lil spirit fragment left of Arthas basically warns you about what the Lich king is really up to and how his undead army wass already well equipped to conquer all of Azeroth whenever he felt like it and him killing and turning us (the players) to add to that army was beyond overkill
Kael'thas thought his acts where for the best of his people. He sacrificed many a thing for the survival of Quel'thalas and of the Blood Elves, to bring them justice and take down the one that butchered them, and to save the world from his evil.
He's in Revendreth.
So no.
My hot take: throwing Arthas into the Maw is what actually broke the machine of death. Arthas was an incredibly powerful soul--he'd be a giant anima battery for the Jailer to kickstart his little coup d'etat.
Oh, man. If everything was Uther's fault.....
so even after playing through shadowlands i'm convinced of this as well. my two theories are either it's arthas' death or argus' death since a titan dying would monumental to the death machine.
I think you’re right about no one ever going directly to the Maw. In addition to giving everyone a chance, it also serves a purpose in keeping the Jailer starving for Anima. The Venthyr would drain anima away from the souls before tossing them to the Jailer. Arthas, having led the life he did, would have a ton of Anima attached. Tossing Arthas to the Jailer raw probably woke the Jailer from a hunger-induced coma.
Bravo! Just getting a chance to enjoy this breakdown, and YES! So much content delivered in such a simple and beautiful medium in this cinematic. So much to ponder and get excited about! Certainly fueling my desire to get in to the pre-patch and expansion!
Last time I was this early, Arthas was still a paladin who loved his father and his teacher
Last time I was this early, there existed no Meme's yet.
_" This entire comment section must be purged! "_
Glad that I'm not the only one who had the same take on Uther and Devoss' (spelling optional) actions in this. I also really like the theory about everyone getting a shot in Revendreth. Makes a lot of sense, at least based on what we know so far
THIS VIDEO is what I was waiting for the moment I saw the notification for the Bastion video. I didn't even notice the split soul difference between Uther and Sylvanas.
My favorite part of this short is that Tim Russ (the actor whom played Tuvok in Star Trek: Voyager) is also a blue angel man.
@@cymrejones He's using a lot of the same formality of speech that Vulcans seem prone to use - although I did miss him my first watch-through!
Man, you blew my mind with the Arthas/Devos parallelisms. As a Lit major, I love watching your deep dives because it reminds me so much of my collee days.
Isn't it odd that arthas says "I see only darkness" when looking straight at devos?
The reflection in his eyes was the swirling darkness of The Maw, yeah?
Cuthbert Allbright he first sees devos grabbing him though, so it is directed towards her.
You are right It may be interpreted like that. It would be sad. I like Devos and don't think that she is so evil just for taking revenge.
i think his quote referring to darkness,is that devos is overshadowing the light with her body
@@dafire9634 This may be a simple interpretation, but could of course be true. We will never know for sure, if the authors intended a deeper meaning with this and not knowing is often better. So everybody chooses a fitting interpretation for him or herself.
Isn't "etermal suffering awaits" (althought generic) a line from Yogg Saron in Wotlk? I was really reminded of it by the tone of her (Devos) voice when she said it as well
Can we just take a moment, that you didn't seem to take, to admire just how beautiful Arthas is in that close up shot of Uther holding him over the Maw?
Look, I get that some people fanboyed over Anduin being beautiful in BFA but he ain't got WoD on how drop dead (heh) gorgeous that Arthas is in this cinematic.
One thing that I feel was missing from this analysis: Uther asked "Where am I?" When getting carried to Bastion. That kinda implies, that souls don't have memories of being judged by the Arbiter. Or even seeing them at all. Because otherwise they would know where they are.
Also the ending of this Cinematic is pretty interesting, with the Maw kinda making its way towards Uther from the edges of the screen.
Completely agree with you on this one. Also explains Arthas' final words. He could only see the Maw.
There are thousands or even billions souls passing through the arbiter each second, she dont have the time to stop and talk to each one, the only way the sorting could work if she just glance at the souls and judge it instantly
@@Brulebassani That's true, but still. For the soul there is nothing in the time between getting torn out of the body and ariving at their destination.
And as we know or at least already got hinted at: Time flows very differently in the Shadowlands. That effect might be even stronger around the Arbiter.
I am still of the opinion that Uther is correct in the first exchange with Devos that there is need for Justice to be enacted by someone on Azeroth and that that would be part of his service to the Light and his people, in which he has "failed" at this point.
There is need for Justice in a restorative and preventive way, to stop Arthas and heal the damage he has done, and I cannot blame Uther for feeling the need to partake in this.
He is just taking revenge in the end, but he had a legitimate interest in the first conversation.
"He was my student"...one of the best moments in WoW lore... Uther loved Arthas like a son, and he's about to cast him into Hell. His eyes in this moment just say 10,000 words. Like he knows that this is a mistake---and the face on that body he is holding is not the face of the man who killed him.....incredible moment.
yes i always felt like Arthas didn't deserve to be cast right away to the maw...only if Uther knew Shadowmourne changes (or manipulates)the mind of its holder..if anything Nerzhul should be in it.Arthas really deserves a redemption.
you know i would like to say i noticed how this art did not hold back and try so hard to introduce what the hell was going on exactly. it was a nice *into the deep end of lore.. very good!
Hold on... Arthas' soul was never brought to be judged. They just tossed him into the maw. He did not get justice, they both took revenge by denying him his judgement. @_@
***SPOILER*** It will be addressed in one of the quest lines ***SPOILER***
I think that's the point. Justice is blind, vengeance isn't. Blue lady was "HERE TAKE YOUR VENGEANCE" and Uther lying to himself that it was "justice". He was the judge, the jury and the executioner.
It is ironic, that the one of most righteous paladins in the game was blinded by desire for revenge. I guess, you could say, that it was all according to plan.
@PepoHappy True words brother/sister.
Heh, i shall step into the shadowlands in full judgement armor and weapon. It is time to bring judgement to the Shadowlands. Carrying The Silver Hand, in judgement form. It shall be poetic.
I imagine people after revenge don't want to see it as revenge--especially if their life is normally devoted to law and order. Justice and Revenge are two sides of the same coin, after all.
One question: if everyone, no matter who, has their final chance for redemption at Revendreth; why did Sylvanas seemingly go straight to the maw when she killed herself at Icecrown?
Perhaps due to a taint left in her soul from Arthas and Frostmourne?
It could be that is what we are trying to fix. Since we know this system is broken and from the bits of lore we get beforehand is that anima is not flowing and it's all going to the maw. She could have been one of the first ones to see this injustice. Or it could have been some Old God influence since that is what Icecrown is made of, pure Yogg Saron blood in the form of metal. Which has either tricked or influenced her soul to be taken directly to the maw or show her inside of it. All to further their needs and desires. Hopefully get more answers soon
have you ever quested in vanilla tirisfalglades ?
She did horrible things to complete her revenge ;torturing and experimenting on random innoncent captives to create her plague for example.
@@44-mhamdihamza23 thats not the point here. The premise of the theory in that everyone has a chance at redemption in revendreth. Tali presents the theory that Davos knows this and therefore takes arthas to the maw themself because theres a probable chance that arthas isn't going to be sent to the maw. If arthas isn't going to be immediately be sent to the maw, then Davos wouldn't beed to intervene = arthas was likely going not going to the maw.
With that in mind: why did it seem Sylvanas was sent straight to the maw (deserving or not) instead of earning her redemption in revendreth.
Maybe Forsaken automatically go to the maw when they die and they’re left out of that go-to-revendreft-no-matter-what deal cus they died once already and the arbiter just didn’t know what to make of those who die more than once
This whole cinematic made me think, maybe the reason the souls are doing directly to the Maw, instead of their inteded place, is because the Mawsworn Kyrians are sending them there instead of bringing them to Oribos.
.... oh
I honestly didn't think he'd drop Arthas. I thought he was saying "he was my student" as some sort of guilt coming across.
These are the best type of "reaction" videos. We need more of these out there.
Off Topic: What would be cool is to see somewhere in Bastion a Tyriel mention ... from Diablo. Just a mention, in a book, on a bottom of a page, somewhere ... somehow :P
That would be...odd. The mythos of both "universes" don't really mash together. There's only one world of mortals in Diablo -created by the fusion of Demons and Angels, who in turn spawn from only two beings. Where as there's a whole cosmos in Warcraft, complete with multiple gods and creators. The only way to mesh the two would be to have the Diablo's lore be the very beginning of the Warcraft Universe.
@@cosmosandquasar The universe is a big place that has a cross point in shadowlands ... I didn't say they should do it just it would be awesome if!
I'm sure there'll be an easter egg for him somewhere around there! Probably not supposed to be *actually* Tyrael, but there'll almost certainly be a reference somewhere.
When covenants got announced I decided early on I'd pick the one that fit my character best from a lore and flavour perspective. After months of doubting I finally decided on Ardenweald.
Then this animation comes out. And your analysis of it comes out. And now I'm sat here thinking 'Maybe Bastion?'.
Uther was killed in "Arendell" wow+Frozen multiverse confirmed
Well i mean he swapped right and left too, sleepless nights *shrug*
Fire for Ariandel...
that would make arthas a disney princess
Jaina and Elsa are a bit similiar xD
I don't play WoW any more, but I appreciate your videos, so thank you for continuing keeping me up to date. You're the only WoW UA-camrs I still follow and I really love all of your content. Hope both of you are doing alright!
Amazing analysis! You articulated a lot of the thoughts I had watching this. It's a super emotional video with lots of information to digest.
BUT! I wish you had a spoiler warning for beta content. Would have liked to have had the "Oh WOW!" moment of getting to fight the blue angel lady. Remember not all of us have played in the beta. Not overly upset, just something to keep in mind for future analysis videos, try to keep it to the video and keep beta info out of it, unless you post a spoiler bot warning.
Came to say this
I can't believe you didn't mention in the scene where Uther is holding Arthas above the Maw Devos is handling the mother f**cking Frostmourne!!!!!
Of course, I'll be screaming all the time in Bastion: This is not the Good Place!
Best cienematic analysis videos ever come from Taliesin. I've been waiting three days for this video!
35:00 - It should also be considered that Arthas was insane and soulless.
His soul taken by Frostmourne when he first picked it up, his decent into madness prior to it, and him being fused with Ner'zul to become the Lich King. Make him a tangle knot of questions of if he was actually in control of his own actions. Even as a free agent of the Lich King, was he really Arthas or just a puppet with a simulation of free will.
As shown in the death of Arthas scene, he did somewhat return to his senses, and then reinforced in the Legion DK campaign, madness is often cured by death. It is the reason why Whitemane is chosen as one of the four horsemen, while an insane zealot of the scarlet crusade in life, her madness was cured in death, and in being raised was willing to take up her role as one of the horsemen. (Assuming there were no mind control antics to the raising, much like the minions of the original Lich King asserting his will over his subjects.)
Arthas could have very well been sorted into another house, even without the opinion of a mandatory stay in Revendreth's purgatory. The argument that he was not in control of himself, that his original motivations had good intentions (IE everything leading up to taking up Frostmourne), could have earned him a chance at redemption in Revendreth.
Kael'thas had that chance and honestly at no point was he really tricked or forced into his actions. Arthas did his worst after losing his soul, Kael never lost his. He chose to damn his own people, he chose to side with demons, he did all of his worst deeps in the name of personal power. Especially capturing a Naru to be used as a holy battery for Bloodelf paladins, then attacking Silvermoon to take it back so it could be used as a power source to summon Kil'jaeden, and snuff out the sunwell for good, again, damning his people.
He was 100% in control of himself the entire time, and while it could be argued that he really didn't do anything wrong up until the Burning Crusade, what he did during BC was REALLY REALLY bad. His only saving grace was that he largely failed in all of his plans. The absolutely horrible things he did only really effected his own people in the end as all of his plans were stopped before being global catastrophes. But I would think, at least hope, that intent has a hell of a lot more weight in Shadowlands sorting than the result of your actions. Summoning a demon lord to destroy the world should be let slide just because a bunch of murder hobos showed up and killed him before he could end the world.
That all seems very reasonable to me. Save one thing.
They ruined Whitemane, she was cool as a super zealot, then they made her into the very thing she fought against, and made her willingly join the Ebonblade. Shit writing. In my opinion.
Arthas was very much alive and in control when he purged Stratholme so Revendreth it is.
@@santiagovera2126 Correct, but those people WERE all infected, it was terrible and murder, but how many did he save by doing it?
Granted he turned around and murdered all of those potentially saved people as Arthas the death knight. But prior to picking up the blade his actions were terrible but redeemable.
@@TheImpolitelad Yep, that's the core of Arthas' tragedy as a character-- he made terrible choices, but he had no choices that weren't terrible; he becomes the villain because he chose to act, but if he hadn't, nobody else would have had the chance to be selfless heroes condemning him, as the Legion would've wiped out all of Azeroth.
Best take on the video EVER! Can't wait for the next one.
Yaaaaas, I love these cinematic analysis videos :D I never know half of the stuff Tali points out xD
I will be quite disappointed if Arthas becomes a main character in Shadowlands. While I think it would be interesting to fix the machine of death and possibly give him a chance at redemption, I think his story has ended for us. It will be very interesting to see how this will be handled.
I haven't come across a more true comment here. You are right.
The arthas story ended 12 years ago and eight before it had ended too.
To me it's fine if he makes some cameos in the Bastion / Maw story. But tbh I feel his arch is done. Don't want Arthas to be the posterboy illidaddy was for Legion
Well we all knew from the very start that Arthas was the main protagonist in Warcraft. The plot twists made him the antagonist and gave other characters some time to introduce themselves. Now we are redeeming the main story.
I liked your take over and above Pyro's. "Trust the process" is terrifying to some, but sometimes, things will work out as they should if you.... trust the process.
They cut out the part in this cinimatic where my character runs behind Arthas and steal his mount as he is killing uther. Lol
*uther and arthas very interestingly watching you*
Uther:...*staring to Arthas*
Arthas:*Whistles*
Invinsible comes back
You:...
Wait, no, my character steals the mount in icc, not warcraft3
Great analysis, brought up lots of insight I wouldn't have thought of, absolutely loving these after life cinematics!
- Mr Uther, do you want some lemon in your cold tea?
- Just ice please.
I thought that this was by FAR the best of the animated cinematics that Blizzard has put out. Which is saying a lot, because there have been some GOOD ones. But wow, the emotions, the characters, the theme, it's magnificent. I always feel my heart lurch when I see Arthas, Uther is another favorite of mine, and the idea of seeing Arthas in the afterlife is something that immediately drew me into BFA. I recently acquired Invincible, a few months before Shadowlands.
I really hope we address Uther's mistake (letting vengeance guide him to deny the Arbiter's judgement) but more importantly, I hope we get a lot of time with Arthas, Uther, and all the great characters of the past. Let's not have them just be footnotes. Redemption for Arthas? Maybe. I would not mind it. But regardless, Arthas is a good sign (ideally) for any development. It's no coincidence that Arthas (as the Lich King or as himself) has appeared/had an impact on EVERY expansion following Wrath.
As a primarily Horde player, the fact they are painting Uther an Alliance hero in an antagonistic light makes me think, HOW DOES IT F*CKIN FEEL!
meh
It's the freaking Lightbringer, he will be redeemed eventually
Not bad they wrote him pretty well in this cinematic
Pfft. "Oh no, my paragon of justice wrongfully damned one single soul" versus "oh no, several of my leaders willingly performed genocide". I'd take the lesser evil any day.
@@ghosbaby True.
Well, this half of his soul, anyways.
ehm excuse me Yrel is a thing too u know xD the little Dreanai Hitler -.-
I'm really glad you said you'll be analysing all of them. I watched this one when it came out and it made almost no sense to me, especially since I'm useless with the lore. Really good video!
5:56 tali's been watching too much frozen with the baby
Ripper analysis! Can't wait for more of these in the leadup to Shadowlands!
Umm actually, Uther Lightbringer was actually a character all the way back in Warcraft 2.
I feel like warcraft 2 was retconned, like the entire thing?
Kelio Goken
Plenty of WC2 is canon. More than not I believe.
Just gotta ignore the horde campaign heh
@@Kelio22 oh yea i totally agree. Like, Deathwing didn't actually join the horde, Ner'zul was never warchief, Gul'dan and Cho'Gal weren't killed by the horde ect.... but lots of thing still are true. And one of those things is that Uther was there.
@@Kelio22
Many of the story events of Orcs and Humans and WC2 are still 100% canon, they were just given revised contexts over time.
The cinematic is amazing, i am stoked for Shadowlands and yes it did change my thoughts on Uther. I wrote on Wow's actual video "Uther, what have you done" and that is how i feel about it.
I would disagree based on currently known lore about everyone getting a chance at the venthyr before going to the maw. While it might be the case for those unknowingly corrupted like arthas and deathwing, I think more self-motivated evil characters like gul'dan or archimonde who are completely without anything like a good motive behind their evil acts might just get a "go to jailer " card.
Archimonde got corrupted tho, he was just a bit jealous of space goat mosses, but that aint such a bad thing, what he did AFTER getting his purple(?) face its a different thing tho.