Can a modded Mk5 Golf GTI beat a Mk8 Golf R? | PH Project Car Pt.6
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- Опубліковано 17 сер 2023
- The moment of truth. Now brimming with engine and chassis upgrades, can we get anywhere near a £50,000 Golf R 20 Years edition around a circuit?
After pitting the stock cars against each other in episode 2, and our GTI coming in 5.5 seconds slower, we head to Curborough Sprint Course to see if PH Project Car has closed the gap. It's now running semi-slick tyres, adjustable suspension, beefier brakes and is a little lighter now we've taken the rear seats out. Power has increased, too, up from 200hp in stock form to 272hp with a new intercooler, Milltek sports cat, induction kit and Revo's Stage 2+ remap. We're still down on power to the 333hp Golf R and while Cam has been getting some driver training on track, he'll be going up against Porsche Carrera Cup GB champion Charles Rainford. But we're lighter and have grippier tyres, so don't count us out just yet. PH Project Car is now complete, time to see what it's really capable of. Let battle commence!
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PH Project Car Part 1: • We’re building a VW Go...
PH Project Car Part 2: • Can our Mk5 VW Golf GT...
PH Project Car Part 3: • Can our Mk5 VW Golf GT...
PH Project Car Part 4: • How to drive fast on t...
PH Project Car Pt.5 - • How much faster is our...
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Front LSD would have helped a lot
and dsg
Not a rear one then?
Would've done that instead of intake, exhaust and all that other crap which has marginal impact
@@MonkeyMD3100%
@@MonkeyMD3The front brakes are also junk, huge increase of unsprung and rotating mass for little to zero improvement for such a short lap. Pads and fluid + LSD.
LSD and some higher quality coilovers would probably bridge a large part of the gap since you are already on some serious tires. Very fun to watch, hopefully more videos to come.
LSD alone, really. On a narrow track like this it's all about low gear traction and for that an LSD is essential, especially on a FWD car.
More of this type of thing please. Good to see how mods work or don't make massive differences. Good to see an affordable golf GTI too, rather than always new expensive things. 2005-2015 was the era of some mega cars that will never be made again.
Interesting to see Charles drive the car and hear his feedback. Shows that just bolting bits onto a car doesn’t always make a coherent package like OEM.
He's been invaluable and great to work with. Hope we get to work with him again in the future!
@@PistonHeadsTV you made a good team together 👍
@@cp4512
Interesting pair, no egos.
A 4 seconds improvement in the lap time with the MK5, after the mods, is a massive amount.
For $ 10 k, the MK5 is a lot of car, and it looks fantastic.
Well done. 👍
We need more of this.
I picked up an 07 MkV last yr. Installed a KO4 w/ Uni stage 2+ ECU and DSG tune, AEM w/m kit , MFactory LSD and factory rebuilt Reference coilovers on Swift linear springs, full S3 aluminum spindles and LCAs with frame lockers and f/r ASBs , full poly bushing upgrades , Volk racing 18” rims, Alcon 4pots on 355 rotors and R32 rears, Braum Fiberglass seats, braille #15 battery and CF hood. I bought everything except tune and bushings off VW Vortex, salvage yard ( spindles) or craigslist , making sure everything was in great shape. Total invested was under $11,OOO USD including car. It handles fantastic , pulls hard and has more than enough grunt at 335 hp / 340 tq to make tracking a blast. Car weighs in under 2800lbs without rear seat and spare , proving you don’t need high hp, just a good power / weight ratio.
Did really well considering it was a 10k budget, can imagine it would be REALLY close if the budget was stretched a bit more to maybe 15k.
Improved LSD would def make a huge improvement.
Really enjoyed watching how this build turned out! Thank you! 🙏
and there's the trap when you start modifying a car, there's no end to the 'improvements' and spend!
@@JakobusVdL very true… 😅
Always find myself browsing the “what next” mods on the internet.
And then parts I cannot afford yet… such as a hybrid turbo 🤣
@@WhatThePun I know what you mean ;-)
Serious gains made there! Really enjoyed this series, great stuff
Why not do a comparison between the MK5 GTI and MK8 GTI? both FWD to level the playing field. The equivalenr 'R' In in the MK5 was the R32.
Right, I don’t think this was fair
A very good point. Let's see how a well-set-up R32 goes against the newbie Golf R
Been a really interesting series. Totally agree about a LSD and a longer circuit. I think up against a standard R from a few years back there would be nothing in it lap time wise. 😊
Enjoyed the series, thanks.
Appreciate the honesty too!
Great to have the race driver level the playing field. And a shock there wasn’t more in it! Chapeau 👏
Brilliant series and despite an unsurprising outcome, the gap sounds like it was a couple of tweaks away!
Nice one PH Team!
Mk5 surely a future classic? In all honesty, all the car you need for a British B road
Erm no it’s capable but quite dull. There’s no lust to a golf like there is to an E92 M3 or Lotus Exige. It’s just a golf.
@@MrCaterhamr500That really is composing apples and oranges. The price difference alone is massive!
@@Buck3366 ok Megan’s 250 Cup, far more exciting with a chassis that’s set up for fun rather than being ‘efficient’
@@MrCaterhamr500 Undoubtedly the Megane would be more track orientated but it’s ride is filling rattling hard, build is like a biscuit tin and reliability of French cars makes even VW look like a Lexus. The Golf is one car that just doesn’t offer one variant of hot version either. You get the regular GTI. A capable car if somewhat ‘dull’. If you want better fast road manners you get a Performance Pack car with mechanical diff and bigger brakes and a tad more power . If you want more added power and an even more harder edge you get a Clubsport that gives 300ps. Something more proper track focused then the Clubsport S comes in. If you want all weather grip the the R is there too. I don’t know any other hot hatch that offers up so much variety.
@@MrCaterhamr500
I remember MK1 and MK2 Golfs beating Porsches around UK circuits, I can't remember the guy's names, there were 2 brothers. There's also a rapid UK MK2 Golf on The Ring. Just Golfs
Well done man! 👏🏼 What I found out modifying my, unfortunately ex, Golf mk5 GTi, the best improvements were light wheels, better tyres, better brakes, suspension geo and driver training.
Good series, hopefully we'll see more of similar projects.
What wheels do you recommend
@@philip244 I had Enkei PF01 which are very light and strong flow formed wheels, almost 4kg per wheel lighter than 18" OEM. I gues any flow formed or, if you can afford, forged wheel from a reputable wheel company is good.
That was great to see. I'm glad the new ones are that much faster! Truly a super hot hatch.
Great show guys
Brilliant job love your content
Thank you
The stock front diff of my Mk6 GTI was the biggest let down I noticed now that I own an Mk7.5 R
Heart break, I was hoping the MkV would match or beat the MkVIII R.
Close, but no cigar. I'll take comfort from the fact the MKV would probaby be ahead of the 2WD MkVIII GTi, and with an LSD, quicker than the R (maybe).
Nice work Cam, Charles, EBay and PistonHeads - a great wee series, more like this please.
mk8 clubsport would beat the mk5 as it is lighter and handles better than the R
@@simonturner2867 maybe a Clubsport model could, but what about the standard GTi?
I think the original idea was to compare a modified MkV GTi to a standard MkVIII GTi.
On the evidence of the tests, traction out of tight corners was a significant difference between the MkVIII R and the modded MkV.
I'd like to see how the comparision with a standard MkVIII would look, as I'm not sure the FWD MkVIII avoids that problem with its electronic rather than mechanical LSD - and lower power output.
Thanks for watching, appreciated the kind words. We initially considered a standard Mk8 GTI but I think we’d have comfortably beaten it. I’ve driven both in stock form and they don’t feel worlds apart. The Golf R gave us something to really think about. As you say, close but no cigar!
I got myself a 06 GTI, I did a bit of a different route, but my goal was to see how cheap I could build it to run 11s in the quarter. I paid 3800 USD for the car and the previous owner had already done the downpipe, intake, a cat back, and a tune. I went through got myself a Franken turbo (k04 hybrid) and some RS4 injectors, along with an upgraded high-pressure field pump off of Facebook. Got it remapped. I did do some stripping so she's pretty lightweight and she ran 11.88 in the quarter, I'm all in at 6000 USD (not sure the conversion rate) and she's a blast to drive, after about three months of beating on it, though the clutch is given up and it's time to do a beefy one.
Good to watch, my wife has a very well maintained mk5 GTI as a daily, sometimes I'm allowed to drive it. Its a standard 2006 5 door, her classic is for winter and farming use Golf mk2 Country Syncro. I love them both but she is VW golf mad. My daily is an Elise S2 1zz and my classic is a Lancia integrale evo2. The mk5 will never go, on the road it will out drag most cars, its incredibly comfortable, handles brilliantly and more than anyone could want. The GTI is the best all round every day car, before the integrale went to a stupid price this was the best everyday car. Not anymore. Buy a good mk5 GTI and you won't want for anything else.
Should have just gone for:
Oem brakes no point wasting money on big ones in a tiny slow speed lap.
Kept the coilovers but actually get a proper geo setup, there is probably half a second minimum in just the alignment.
Quaiffe diff.
Would have gone for Ad09 tyres if need to be okay on road but lap time is important.
Spend all the leftover cash on power.
I'd be surprised if that wouldn't beat it then.
That's without taking stuff out the car too which would be considerable time also.
Nice, liked the journey
Congratulations Cam, only 0.1ish off professional driver Charles.
You must be stoked!
Hahaha, thanks man 👊 Yeah my ego has grown exponentially, but let’s be real: Charles would demolish me on a proper circuit. Watching him drive the Golf R was mesmerising. But he’s a Carrera Cup champion, I’m just a car bloke who talks for a living. I’ll take the wins, no matter how small!
Honestly guys, great work & great buys... definitely a sleeper...
Everyone does the old change the alloys etc... you concentrated on the important stuff, handling etc, diff would have made all the difference, would be great if the new owner invested in that & you guys get it back on the track...
Already looking forward to whatever it is you pick for the next project... got to be a ford tho surely 😅😂😆🤣.... 🤓JT
Mk5, what a wonderful wee thing. Performance bargains now.
Loved this series. 🇿🇦
Terrible idea for any manufacturer to build a FWD hot-hatch without an LSDiff. Integra, Civic Type-R, Megane Sport all behave great traction-wise mostly because of that.
With the mk8 R being top end of what u can get, surely this test would have been better using a mk5 Pirelli or edition 30 as these were rhe top spec GTI of the mk5 era. Same mods plus some additional hardware n it would have been a fairer like for like test.
2 great cars tho! Gd content, more of this would be quite interesting! 👍
Puts my mk4 to shame 😅love the show, let's hope I win!!!! Pity it's not a 3 door 😢❤
Start with the Pirelli edition GTI, and with a well-set-up LSD, Bilstein coil-overs which have been properly set up for the car and course, the appropriate bracing good well-set-up bushings and a proper wheel alignment / set up along with the obvious well-tuned stage 2+ kit with a set of larger rotors with a set of the appropriate Pagid brake pads and fluid I'll put my money on a stock Golf 8 being left in the GTI,s dust.
The GTI doesn't have the same mechanical grip out of slow corners as the R but it's considerably lighter.
A bit of strange priorities, Better tyres, wider tyres, alignment and lsd would probably have yielded a much faster car for less money. Bigger brakes and power is a waste on such a track, race pads/fluids would have been enough. Anyway a fun series! :)
Mk5 golf is just a stunning car.
but a complete PIA car to work on. I got a 2009 2Door w/ a TSI cbfa engine code. It's been in limp mode unfortunately. I think i know what's causing it but I might aswell tear the down the entire front of the car and replace everything. Its at around 125k, which is when things fail on it. Really hoping I can fix it, it is indeed a beauty and useful storage space w/ the seats down. Then I can get to my other project lol.
Feel quite lucky to have seen this nearly a week in advance as it appeared on the screen at the 25th anniversary event 😅 Sadly I think I was inside the hangar area when the awards were being handed out at the end and when I got out, someone said "And that's it"
Amazing you got just 0.1 away from the pro driver to be fair. As others have said, the inclusion of a K04 turbo would probably help a lot but maybe it would sacrifice some of the cornering ability?
Very ambitious and great positive vibe, but the R,,,, amazing bit of kit. I actually bought one. But here in North America, we got ripped off, the h/p on the 20 year anniversary did not change at all.... no 333 h/p.
If you had begun with a Golf V 4motion as a fairer match you would probably have seen a closer result.
Lost grip and weight are the killers here.
That said I have loved this concept. Please do more....
I am in love with that interior
It's not a track car either setups quite shabby for £10k
Interesting comparison. I would definitely keep the cars on the same tires in the future as semi slicks are worth a couple seconds on there own. Also over a second difference on a 30 second lap time is a substantial difference. Would be curious how much a lsd would help on the MK5 but I still don’t see it matching the R even on this tight and technical track where the Golf R can’t stretch its legs
wwwtttff NOBODY mentions the beige gti interior how rare is that :D aweseome!
Did you run standard alignment specs on both cars? You probably left quite a lot of turn in and rotation on the table if you ran the mk5 with it's factory spec alignment.
Great series. Would be interesting to see how they compare on a different circuit. If it were my project, I think I'd save the money on the brakes and instead go for some super light wheels.
Am I the only one who thinks comparing the mk5 GTi to a mark 8 GTi would have been a fairer comparison ?
A different (longer, faster and less constrained) circuit would definitely change the comparision. But a longer, faster, circuit would put more demand on the brakes,so I'd say the brake upgrade would be more valuable for such a circuit.
The super light wheels may have been a higher priority for this tight circuit - but the lucky bugger who wins the car gets the upgraded brake and p.u package, and can choose to spend some of their money on super light wheels and go hunting Mk8's ;-)
@@hughstultz7849 It would be a more direct comparison. Both being fwd would be interesting. But I guess the idea was to challenge the ultimate Golf on a budget.
Suggestion for next project car, can a down to Earth MK3 Focus Zetec S 1.6 beat an ST? The Focus will be cheaper to buy so you'll have more money to spend - which you'll need as the Focus doesn't have Turbo unless you go for the 1.6 TDCI. Same 10k budget.
Nice to see Niles Crane become a racing driver 👌
Should of fit a lsd, such a short low power circuit would of made a huge difference to that inside wheel issue. Its huge difference on the newer extreme clubsport s, and even a megane cup. But as you say you ran out of money.
As somoene who plans to track there 417whp/356wtq MK5 GTI, thanks for affirming my purchase of my Wavetrac LSD which is being installed in September...
Just fold the rear seats down for a better COG and have you thought of cadence clutching for that extra boost?
The LSD makes a huge difference, I’m fortunate enough to have had mine spec’ed out from the factory with one. Even at stage 2, there is no wheel slip pushing it into corners. It just grips and goes even on bad tires and 17” rims.
How did you manage to spec the LSD from factory?
@@Mk2fSaloon it was just by chance, the dealership had one. As I understand it was a rare option, so I just got lucky.
@MikeGersh thr Pirelli and 30th anniversary edition GTIs weren't even available with an LSD from VW but yet, yours had one, thats grips on cheap tyres at stage 2. Wow, what a car to own...
... in your head.
@@Mk2fSaloon the edition 30 was a European model only, not offered in the US, so I’m guessing you’re not from the US. You don’t think it’s possible that something was offended in the US that wasn’t offered in Europe? I don’t have the original spec sheet for my car so I can’t say with 100% certainty that it has an LSD but I know that when you turn by hand one of the wheels on a FWD when it’s on a lift the other front wheel will turn in the opposite direction. On my car when you turn one of the front wheels the other turns in the same direction, generally that’s what you get with an LSD. The grip is not that good since I went to stage 2, the tires are cheap by my standards but not necessarily cheap.
@MikeGersh European, US or even Japanese versions.. doesn't matter, VAG didn't develop an LSD for the Mk5 platform.
Dude, just give up.
This goes to show that seat time in a specific vehicle is important. That profession driver wasn't used to that carm although he performed well, it goes a long way knowing your car.
I don’t mind that it didn’t beat it, please do this series again with a rwd car.
An E87 118D BMW against the new AWD - FWD bias - M135i??
I was thinking more the old 135i coupe vs new m135i, 135i are cheap these days
@@alexmaiden1678 believe it or not it's quite difficult to find petrol 10 years old BMW as the majority sold at the time were Diesel...
MK5 looks so much better imo. Nothing stops you slapping a ko4 on it or going DSG :P. Yes its not a total out the box package but its something different and fun to do.
Edition 30 and rtecs magic , sorted
Dsg helps alot. on top the peak torque had to be affected with the way vw designed the motor. Peak torque on the bpy motor is at 2300 rpm. Boost is just a benefit. A k03/k04 hybrid would of benefited better rather than a stage 2 tune on a factory k03 turbo. Solid video and love mk5 it was the best 3500 usd on a 4 door family car
We should put it up against our mk5 GTI build £7k @pistonheads
I'd love to know what difference JUST a diff would make
30mph flying start in 3rd gear?!?
Who won the car btw ?
My dream car is a golf GTE but my brokeass could never afford it 😭😭 ,
Can't wait to see the competition results lol this gonna be my longest 2 day weekend of my life
Great my little project. 👍🏿
How do you win the car ?
Totally!
its interesting how they do the laps with ac on
Please fit a wavetrack diff, and go again 🙏
Ten k into a lightly modded meg 250 cup would do the trick. But that would eliminate the point of the series.
Great mini series. 👍🏻
I found MKV aged very well
Does this mean the Golf8 GTI Clubsport will definitely beat the 8R then?
Did anyone win this? Was meant to be drawn in November?
It doesnt matter so much in the end. The mark 5 is one of the most iconic GTIs ever made! And this which is a manual is a holy grail and also a 5 door !
You say 5 door like it’s a plus 😂. The 3 door is lighter & more rigid than 5 door.
@@sunsetgarage755 Its not a plus for a lap time but its much more rare inlcuding that its a manual also. Indeed its much more lighter with a 3door.
@@cartechaddict6079 Other way around here in Australia. 3 door manual with no sunroof is super rare & the hardest Mk5 GTI to find here in good condition. There are 5 door DSG’s & 5 door manual dime a dozen everywhere.
@@sunsetgarage755 here in greece we barely even have 5door configurations for mark 5s. 90-95of mark 5 gtis are 3 door DSGs
AXX go boom
Take those cars to a full circuit.
Thicker rear arb and of course LSD would have helped with understeer
Because of it being fwd its harder to get the power down my mk5 gti is running 350 bhp all it does is spins the wheels until 4th
I think people are right about the LSD these newer vag hot hatches are way more advanced handling wise I was shown this by a mk7.5 gti on the bends as I tried to keep up in my s3 8p. So these newer cars can carry speeds in corners much better
Can you explain why you put the GTi up against the R? Surely the logical thing would have put with the Mk8 GTi?!
I didn't realise the Mk5 didn't have a 'diff. On such a nadgery track: game over sadly.
Wonder why he didn't compare a modded MK7/7.5 GTI against the stock MK8 R? Oh yeah, because it would obliterate it...
More videos on the gti
Spending £10k on an old MK5 Golf is madness.
Come it's sale the owner will take a bath with this thing..
You’d need a serious stage 3 build and dsg to stand a chance against a stock 8R
LSD + Coilovers + Track Alignment would have gained way more time than the extra power - especially on such a small, tight track
I think you can! Check out our £7k GTI S3 BUILD on our channel! 374bhp Golf R killer!
Quaife Required !!
Why not compare it to a tuned MkVR32 instead?
an LSD would be at least needed to go against an AWD. That would bridge the gap I believe
Leave 10 mm on the magnet case of the Analyser
could have turned that golf gearbox into a lsd/fixed for pretty cheap. not talking about fitting an expensive lsd
Leon fr 2.0tfsi would have been a cheaper option to start with.
I had a mk5 GTI too with bigger turbo, brakes etc. One thing I hated about the mk5 was its complete lack of steering feel.
That new Golf R is a beast 😃.
Does happen with all cars with electric steering wheel. Had an Ibiza Sport, Leon FR and BMW 118D MSport, all with good chassis and handling but numb steering without any feedback because they were electric assisted. My current Mazda 3 has hydraulic steering and despite being a softer car that rolls too much on the bends, it has a better steering fell.
I think a Gti Edition 30 Dsg (remaped) will make it possible to beat that Golf R.
So Charles only drove the PH car for one lap? I dont see how this is a logical experiment in the slightest.. You should have made him drive several laps in both cars and then compared best lap times / braking times
Nope. He had several laps (even more than Cam!), we just featured the best laps from both runs in the video. His times were within a few hundredths of each other for five consecutive laps - he's a real pro.
an R vs a GTI??
Should have been gti vs gti in my opinion
3rd gear is the wrong gear at 30 mph. Especially with a tuned car. Would have been quicker starting in 2nd at 30mph.
Charles used 2nd to start with and was slower. Without an LSD, the fronts light up and you wash wide. Using third means you’re on boost once you’ve straightened up, minimising understeer.
Used LSD and you got it
Part for part not a chance
You were very close to a "pro" driver in the mk5.
Thanks! I’ll admit, that’s 0.14 seconds on a short course. The difference would obviously be bigger over a longer course. But Charles is a champion and destined for even greater things, I’m just a car nerd that can occasionally string a sentence together 😅
Now put an lsd and a s3 turbo on it 😉
Love my R but GTI did good tho
but isnt a difference with a DSG and Manuel
And you should've picked a dsg
Try a better fuel pump with higher pressure.