Understanding the Difference from 3 vs 1 and 4 vs 5 - Dota 2 Fundamentals (Episode 15)
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- Опубліковано 16 лип 2022
- BSJ explains one of the most important thing in Dota
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I like how this puts responsibility on the cores, when I pick a cm, and my carry goes drow, she's griefing my pick.
I feel you. In pubs, the supports are expected to pick first. And yet more often than not, the cores manage to still grief with their zero-synergy picks. Worse, if you end up losing the game because of the bad draft, the blame still goes to the support (who picked first and had no control over the draft)
Absolutely, I've tried it even with carry first pick drow and evenso I'm asking for melee support like ogre or omni, I get jakiro ..
Yea in our lower mmr pubs, the people who want last pick are mostly selfish and only want to avoid the enemy counterpick
So true. Especially in the low mmr games I play, the carry and offlaner seem to rarely think about how their pick goes with the support. Who is always expect to pick first naturally.
Yes and no... Just because they pick Drow doesn't mean you need to be on their lane past 6-8min ;-)
Give them the best start you can, then go crush the game with the rest of your team.
These dual lane dynamics are something I've thought embarrassingly little about, thank you BSJ for the enlightening concise overview and improving the way I think about the game:)
Bro the timing. Last night I was just searching for a detailed explination of difference between pos 4 and pos 5. BSJ always delivers man!
keep it pma! keep it bsj!
a 5 is a hero that can do its job without any farm and dont need alot of lvls to do so a 4 is a support that require some farm to do its job and is a playmaker of sorts. the 4 needs to be a hero that needs to be able to stay in fights a bit to get impact or has alot of utillity.
Recently found your channel and I wanna thank you for making so much quality dota content... Been playing a while (mostly support) and not really improving, hanging out around 700 mmr, playing turbo 99% of the time and getting tilted by bad teams that ignore calls... Specifically one of your coaching videos where you had a CM spamming linken's on a sniper that was doing huge dmg but getting rekt fast every fight, then they clutched the win because of the support protecting sniper... And a couple times I have heard you say even if you lose, you know that you did your job and did everything you could to give your team the best chance at winning, and the rest is beyond your control... Also your entire coaching series with Eri... You have changed my perspective completely, and I have learned a ton about strategy and reading the map and decided a couple days ago to get back into ranked and I'm currently on a 6 win streak solo queing as support, and I'm about to hit 1k MMR... Current goal is to get to crusader playing hard support, and I think I can get there in the next few weeks...
sniper and necro are the only supports in gusrdian
And bounty hunter
In herald we have anti mage pos 5… and it works
@@xbon1 no it's not if you play 30 mins game, your obviously 40+ mins
There are supports in guardian?
Gaurdian is basically just a brawler where characters have random items at random levels
"This video will be the single most video"
- BSJ, 2022
BSJ taught me how to choose a heros according to my support.meanwhile my POS 5 sup is pudge and my offlaner is pa
Slark pos 4 and Grim mid... And zero single target spells to work with the mid ultimate. Nice.
Good advice - I can definitely tell in most of my losing stomp games I already had a very disadvantageous position due to the draft.
I felt like I understood this concept more than a lot of people. Lost so many lanes that were obvious losses and I get flamed for one reason or another.
that's why its kinda hard to play support because your carry will pick a hero that is bad to lane with you and they expect to win the lane
@@DeathVrizz99 it's also why it's hard to play carry, your support picks an ogre magi and you pick a squishy ranged carry, and then the ogre just sits behind you the entire lane while you get 2v1d
@@arnazian jesus christ this sums up my dota 2 experience perfectly. so often I pick a squishy carry because my support picks a beefcake, and then they grief the fuck out of me by applying no pressure and I'm stuck 2v1 in this lane as a squishy carry with no sustain and an afk support leaching my xp. The amount of games I have to leave lane to go jungle before 10 mins is insane.
@@arnazian oh that's so sad to hear :( I just love playing ogre support because he's such a tank with great harass spells and even a heavy rightclick :)
Just got bit by the bug of wanting to climb rank a bit and holy hell has this channel been incredible! Tysm for being so clear and concise with this super critical info!
Shadow Shaman in pro level pubs is played 60% pos4, 40% pos 5. Hard to call that griefing I think? Silencer 50% pos 5, 40% pos4.
Other heros mentioned here though are quite distinct: Warlock is 97% pos 5, AA is 80% pos 5
^ This- bsj has even recommended shaman as a go to 5 pos for new player. These 2 maybe better in a specific lane, but definitely not a grief pick
This is cool I will pay attention to my support and try this alternation method if I play safe or offlane again
This is so important I wish more players saw this. So many games are kinda ruined at the start by a “…?” support in lane.
thanks, i really need this
Nice edit man
What a useful video! I really appreciate it…I am gonna send link to my friends, who I play with, to learn these principles, because they constantly pick bad 4 or 5 to my carry or off lane. Would it be possible for you though to make a video with more of these lane combos (1+5, 3+4) than just few examples? It would be great to have a list e.g. of 10 heroes to pick from. Thanks for your content and effort anyway!
Well usually supports pick first, so you COULD say that YOU pick badly matching carries..
I think theres one exeption for example, you can pick range offlane and 4 if they have havy harras.
Like Sky and viper you can make the enemy carry quit the lane prett early and if they cant jungle its a hughe advantage.
lol syck
Need more of hero pic guides like this
Very nice!
What do you do if the five first phases a melee hero but as a carry a melee hero hard counters the enemy team. Would you still go it at the expense of the lane?
@BSJ what do you think of aggressive major picks like viper or death prophet. I feel like both potentially fit both roles, as they offer a high amount of trading efficiency. DP can heal up with siphon lvl 3 on lane and viper is a trading monster with a lvl in passive and 2 in SpitSpit, when the pick fits i feel like you can make it work really well, even though these heros can struggle mid game if they had to play too sacrificial
this is wild!
This video has truly changed my mindset 10/10
this archetype is like a chess opening, its good bcs its basic and its working very well most of the time. The more people are using this, there's a bigger value in learning lane combos that works against these pair (hence, the importance of big hero pool, early game aggression, and how to enable your cores)
What i would like to know is if there are any rules for the combination of dual lanes. If carry and pos 5 are melee and range, then should pos 4 and pos 3 be the opposite?
No honorable mention for marci, dawn or ogre as a bruiser? do they work as both 4 and 5 with a range pairing?
you get the point anyway
ck can be highly recommended for offlane too. I pick it a lot. can stomp the lane with skywrath or hoodwink
you can use shadow shaman as a pos 5. but you gotta be against melee or you have a ranged carry and as alternate option you can go for maxing out Q and harras that way. if you move in the shadows through the trees and keep the lane in the spot where he works well then its a very viable option. your ward game needs to be on point though... if the lane is pulled from the offlane you've to be out of possition then he sucks. so block the offlane pull camp at all costs.
Damn, that makes so much sense, but I hadn't thought of that, thanks jenkins2
5:37 a lot of good harras
thank you
10:45 good rule of thumb, i certainly wouldn't say it's a requirement every game. For example slardar+tusk is one of the most deadly offlanes in the game, and you can pretty much guarantee kill the carry at level 2.
Godfather banana out here making offers we can't refuse..
Do any of you think puck is a good pos 4?im a mid but like to mess around with pick support when I’m out of role que. silence lock down ult and good movement.
Perfect
im glad my willow at least got an honerable mention!!!
SILENCE, STUN,
babik man!
I hope even higher mmr players can take this to heart. Even in mid divine, I've had so many supports and offlaners just picking random heroes that don't fit the role and it makes the game so much harder than it needs to be
not every is super try hard to win, sometimes they just want to play their favourite hero
@@TheChosenOne462 they can play unranked, they can play turbo, ranked is for the tryhards
@@flashnimi or they can play ranked and you can suck it
Always here learning master.
Ty mr banana
Can you do this for mid as well this was great
What do the position numbers mean? im guessing 1,2 and 3 are your carries and 4&5 are supports? what lanes do 1, 2 and 3 go to?
its weird to see the shift back to dual lane meta bringing up like 2008-2010 concepts of dota. i remember people wouldnt be allowed in dota pugs in wc3 if they picked dual melee or dual range lanes lol
I wish marci and dawnbreaker would be explained in the video because I think they brought a new style to dota since they can be picked to win both safelane and offlane really hard as supports
They will get a nerf soon so maybe that style doesn't last
I use zeus as a 4 purely, and witch doc as 5 for counter kill potential. Have great success so far. Bounty hunter for both 4 or 5 but prefer 4.
In my bracket it is usually Undying in front taking damage and drawing attention away from my carry, meanwhile my carry sitting near tower pinging aggressively and typing stop feeding.
Thanks
now people in my pubs are convinced the key to winning is melee-ranged duo on lanes
Does a support need all og these of just a sum or combination? Because i can't seem to put in warlock with the method.
Also shaman has two controls and a nuke dmg. Doesn't that fit the bill? He also have insanely high AA trade dmg
Warlock is the former, he trades super well because of bonds and can babysit his carry. Shaman is definitely a better 4 than a 5
What carry style does TB fit into? Between meta, Reflection's slow, and his high base armour, he feels a little confused?
tb needs a babysitting support. treant or dazzle is a good example. imo tb dont want to use meta all the time esp if they have an aggressive offlane. You use meta to fight back not to start fights.
A few questions: 1) Won't there be some ranged pos 5 + pos 1 combinations that have a lot of harass with a lot of peel? Like Crystal Maiden + Drow/Luna? What causes them to fail - can't you cc and disengage if they chase/stun you?
2) One thing that happens a lot with supports is fighting in the jungle around jungle camps. Doesn't Shadow Shaman lose inavding jungle fights as a pos 4 due to being low range? I would have thought he fights better in the jungle as a pos 5 because he benefits from breaking line of sight and the multiple exits you get in the safe lane.
3) I don't understand why Silencer doesn't count as a good pos 4. Doesn't his Q + E provide high damage at long range that can't really be avoided? As a result, they have to run at you the entire distance or they continue taking the damage over the lane. I thought this was what would force fights in the offlane - they have to stop you from killing them by attrition. The silence also makes it hard for them to aggress on you.
4) You said that a pos 4 is either a ranged that follows up with ganks or fights or is a melee that starts ganks or fights. But doesn't Warlock do both with Chaotic Offering?
5) One of the most vicious laning experiences I've had has been watching pos 3 + 4 denying every creep in lane together and when you try to stop them, they just ruin you. And by the time you could get it under your tower to last hit, they would dive you with the extra levels. The video doesn't indicate this can happen - it feels like the video says that there is just one way offlane or safe lane strategy plays out but it doesn't feel like that in games.
I understood the broad point of the video but I feel like I don't understand some of the details that test it and would appreciate any clarification.
I kind of surprise no one try to answer this - so this is some of my opinion
1) with no melee, there is no one to soak damage and one of your range heroes will eventually have to tank. In this patch, with a melee build in stout shield, early lvl cc is not nearly enough to halt all aggression in most case. drow won't feel save when you have cm tank for you instead of ogre, especially if the enemy successfully pull the lane back.
2) great observation and true, but this is just a minor issue for pos4 shaman (with the same reason, you may say that shaker is a better pos5). I agree that shaman is not a bad pos5 though, but because of other reason.
3) silencer is always a good lanner, which make him not a bad pos4 at all. However he is a bit better as pos5 since he can halt enemy from using their skill and he benefit a lot from a chase distance.
harassing is not forcing a fight, but give you a better chance to win if a fight do happen - stun do force fight, since the another hero will have to rush in and help the stunned one out.
4) lvl6 for sup is around 10min which is a bit too late as an lane gankers. he is basically a healer version of silencer until he has ult which make him not so bad as a pos4, but.. ya know, far better as 5.
5) I think it isn't mentioned because this is more of a draft video and not much about how to play the lane, I'm pretty sure bsj says what to do with that situation in an another clip. And there is always more then 1 way to play dota, you don't have to always strict to the plan.
Hope this help!
@@themaskedivy29 Thanks for the clarification. My point about Silencer and (5) was that I had noticed that BSJ made the point that these heroes required the opponent to come to them. However, the fact that you can get denied on every hit or chased out of the lane through constant harass would force people to have to come to you to fix the situation. Otherwise, they'd slowly and painfully lose. So it didn't feel like a disadvantage - the alternative to letting the Silencer be is to take constant damage until you die.
is lich considered a good pos 4?
undying + pa is my favourite safelane stomp lane
can we have BSJ's hero grid file?
How about WD? as pos 4 or 5?
Lotr said it best: spears in front, archers behind. Basic rule that helped me enjore warcraft 3 and in turn, doter.
I can literally out this video on my second screen on my second monitor and check what carry should I pick.
Doesn’t apply to guardian bracket usually support pick hero to jungle and farm leave carry helpless
squishy low mobility 4s hurt my soul
I feel like shaman is a melee bruiser. Low hp but mega base dmg and a self heal with shackles
Lol when he said tuskar
how would dark seer fit in there ?
As far as experience goes I would consider him as a melee pick because vacuum but he's not really a frontline and he kinda plays an harass game like a ranged hero would so dunno
Time to gain some MMR
Thank you BSJ sensei
The MOST video ever you've made for sure
In my rank I see Pudge as a position 2,3,4,5. Can you please help me what hero to pick for this different position. I am tired of losing match because of pudge position 5.
How about Sniper Pos 5 and Pos 4? 😅😂
Great guide btw !
I don’t like how you think a silencer 4 griefs my Marci 3. I’ve run it a few times, and we absolutely destroyed pretty much every time.
Coach B ❤❤❤
Ok let's put out something about support picks. Supports have to pick first which means the carry has to accommodate the support pick. In pubs its really difficult to coordinate pick like this. So how do you suggest we go through that. Just asking.
I need an answer to this too lol
Look at your core's profile to see if they like ranged or melee heroes more. Click on the hero you wanna play as early as possible giving your core time to suggest something else if necessary.
It's better to lose starting gold?
Just pick and play its not that deep in pubs
supps dont have to pick first, its just cores wanna pick later so they dont get counterpicked. as a support, usually i ask my core what kind of supps they want to pair with, and picking any hero that i like if they dont answer. if im the core (offlane mostly), im highlighting the hero i wanna play with, or going first pick if the hero didnt have any meaningful counter/bait pick
this concept doesnt work on my bracket. just last game, pos5 enigma went midas 1st item, then pos4 voker went travels 1st item. :)
1K MMR carries have left the chat
So if I understand the vid correctly, the reason why I find little success on using Hoodwink as 5 is because she has good disable but not great laning damage and i mostly gets laned to a farming carry. HW is really more suitable for the 4 position. How about Snapfire? I use her for both 4 and 5 and was doing decent in lanes.
snap is good bc she has a lot of damage and can stun enemy or save their carry with cookie
@@zanido9073 base on my experience now, she's both good at being a 4/5. Not the most mobile as 4, but she has a good nuke, a stun with a gap closer, and Tombstone destroyer. Her ulti, paired with a sure stun, can kill almost anyone early to mid game.
Guys put the playlist link in the Description Box for this series so people can bookmark it and take a look easily. (Or if you don't have it, make it then)
Personally, I needed this video. I always just jam whatever
so is zeus not a pos4?
I go offlane wind ranger with pos 4 hood wink and we rip the carry bro .
Snapfire, someone tell my team to stop picking Snapfire when I'm a melee Offlaner and feeding to Juggernauts bladestorm every 3 mins....I find that in most of my games (as I love playing POS3 offlane) that I tend to get POS4 people who just feed, grief, don't roam, or don't know how to harass/pull the lane/ or be useful in lane. So...I end up alone in the Offlane almost every time after the dude has fed like 3 or 4 times and then they go off to some other lane leaving me with a fed hard carry with a support that can just stun me. Now, I don't feed or do stupid shit after that, but it still ruins my laning phase almost every game. I feel like it's rare to see someone play POS 4 well. I think it's probably the most misunderstood role.
This is exactly why I hate first picking supps, because my team most of the times doesn’t give synergy and adjust to the first 2 picked supps. They just pick whatever and most of the time grief my game.
No razor??!! What’s up banana man!
Best games where I pick Earth spirit, and my 3 picks night stalker/doom
If u think your 2k treant is going to be tanking for u instead of afk-ing in trees leeching xp, you are watching too much BSJ
Tuskar lol I'm grieving pos 4 huskar and say you told me
Love you man
💪
what would go with WKing offlane then???
It feels like marci is overall could played both 4 5 positions and be successful
no love for pos 5 ogre magi???? this hero fits both tank and nuker in lane..
I wanna main Tuskar
got it.
its literally a big problem in low ranks. cores don't know how to pick. they pick drow cause they alot a lot of game with her or pick am cause they live in old patches 50 min farm unit u lose all the towers. recommend you to create a video about don't picking 4 and 5 that havr very similar approach like picking two range non- stunner that can be countered by one hero.
i'm playing pos4, but according to this i'm playing it wrong :D will try your way sir
linking this to all the random marci picks from now on
marci fit all these roles
Marci fits both the melee 4 and melee 5 architype. If they first phase it, its the carries job to pick a good laning partner
if u pick a melee creep carry with no stuns/nukes into marci thats on you lol
Marci is weird. For example, IMO she looks interesting as 5 with Jug or Ursa even though they both are melee. Maybe she kinda fits the "range 5" archetype as she wants her carry to tank and punish enemy for overextension,
Does anyone have the replay ID that triggered him to make this?
Pudge 5 + Antimage 1 classic sea duo lane
whorst thing is that offlaners think they are carry. they pick wk or ck offlane and then take speace for 25 min from the carry instead of creating space. furthermore they lack the attitude and the spells/heros to initiate fights..... thats why i only play carry on 5k+
Does this mean I can play sven in the offlane if I have a skywrath?
You know……
I like you.
Only if the sky is pos 3
thank god some1 said shaman is not a good 5, as a shaman spammer, unless u have ursa in lane its awful 5 trust
I feel like this will just get unnoticed by 99% of the community, unless i point it out my carry will literally pick drow or a sniper when I'm a ranged pos5 and feed to the NS at 5 mins
I had to try so hard not to tilt the other day when my 1 picked drow after I picked CM. I told myself to just make it past laning and then come back by stacking ancients.
Because I was pma, we crushed the lane and won the game.
Can omniknight be a 4?
Marci is the most broken 4 and has not been mentioned in this which is insane
I love how such players as Sunfame literally boost accounts to 10k MMR with pos 4 silencer/ww (slow ranged heroes without roaming potential) which is basically more than BSJ have and still BSJ somehow say that picking those heroes is griefing.
What really matters is that pos5 is often a hero that play without items and pos4 is the hero that gets a something like lense or blink, and yes, in this way shaman is bad pos5 but that doesn't mean that he can't be pos4 just because he stays with carry. And anyway shaman have like biggest right-click damage as a ranged hero at the beginning of the game, so with boots he can non-stop harassing enemies, especially if they go after your carry. You can't pool creeps against shaman, you can't dive under the tower too, so isn't that how support that stays with carry supposed to play?