Concussion is still certainly the first thing to think of here, so don’t think this video is me saying that’s not possible. This is just an alternative pathology to think about when the blow to the head wasn’t as intense as we can often see in hockey
Great educational piece tonight, Doc. As a newer practicing athletic trainer, I have not heard of carotid sinus hypersensitivity before. I enjoy watching hockey, but not working it, as I just am not of fan all the potential seriousness of injuries, as well as the consistent underreporting of them. But this surely gives some new insights for a differential diagnosis. Thanks!
is there a difference in how the body reacts (specifically the arms) when it is knocked unconscious from a blow to the head vs a sudden drop in blood pressure.?
@@tchevrier the short answer is that with head trauma like with a concussion sometimes, posturing (body rigidity) can occur. There are three primary types of posturing, but all elicit stiffness in limbs, torso and/or neck. Sometimes there is not posturing with head trauma. In the case of low blood pressure, one usually presents lifelessly, and simply falls down limply.
@@hampton1947 Dylan and his wife shared that she was pregnant. She was probably 20 something weeks and had a miscarriage. Dylan missed a couple of games for an undisclosed reason and this is likely that
As a wings fan who was watching live, knowing his history with head/neck injuries in the past with hits from Jamie Benn in 2020 and Mathieu Joseph (who was also involved in tonight’s play) in 2021, this was definitely very scary to watch. Hopefully he’ll be alright, and be brought back in the appropriate amount of time. Thanks doc!
@@jaydensmith3933 Ya that was a scary moment, still waiting for new and nothing yet. (side note: when I first read "I hope our cap gets better" I thought you meant you hoped the injury would open up salary cap space, which I thought was a pretty messed up place to go, then I realized you meant captain!)
Interesting video! In my opinion no matter if it was Carotid sinus hypersensitivity or a brain injury, this was a good opportunity to discuss CSH. I'd never heard of this and talking about things like this is exactly the point of this channel! It's unfortunate that a player was injured but I think it's great that you can bring something good and educational out of a bad situation! My thoughts and prayers are with the player and his loved ones and I wish him a speedy recovery!
I was at the game….it was absolutely terrifying. The entire arena was SILENT! You couldn’t heard a pin drop. I sat there nearly holding my breath just praying he’d get up! I hope he is okay and can recover quickly. He and his family are already going through enough. Appreciate this break down and the medical knowledge, I work in healthcare so this is helpful for education!
Hey Brian could you cover Patrick Kane’s hip resurfacing procedure? I know the basics but I’d love to hear from a professional what happens, how they do it, what it’s correcting, then prognosis and why it’s ended so many careers
every doctor in the world has time to take a screenshot. What are you talking about? You think all doctors work 140 hours a week, and none of them have hobbies?@@blackoutgstar9949
Jamie Benns hit to the neck of Larkin was not “benign”…. It was a brutal, two-handed cross check to the back of Larkins neck, while the latter was bent over for a face off. Benn leaned over Larkin, and put all of his weight and strength into a forceful, downwards cross check. That play was brutally dangerous and so far out of the realm of normal hockey violence/danger.
@@bnandersonxoh please. Benn has a history of this kinda shit. If you had eyes better than Stevie Wonder, you’d see what he’s saying is completely right.
I’m not a doctor but it looked like #27 hit him “on the button” on that sensitive spot along the jaw that you see fighters get knocked out a lot when hit.
With the glove though... and watching it in real-time.... i really don't think so. Especially with his history of bizarre neck injury. Terrence McKinney is an MMA fighter that got KO'd cold just like this from a knee hitting the side of his neck
Those gloves aren't that soft. They wear them to protect their hands. The padding inside is very unforgiving. You could get hit with something soft on the chin and as long as you get a little twist and the right angle you'll go out. He wasn't ready for that and didn't see it coming.
Very few things are as shocking to read as _____ lying motionless. Whether it’s an athlete or someone on the street when it’s this bad they are not moving the situation is truly critical. God Bless that young man. Hockey is a great sport and it matters but a persons day to day ability to live breathe eat function as a person take precedence over everything else.
@@thomascunning8248I’ve seen plenty of MMA boxing and many other combat sports. Having experience seeing something doesn’t make it any less difficult when it occurs again. If a firefighter has seen tons of people burned in fires he’s not going to stop caring or not have an emotional reaction the next time he sees a burn victim. No matter how grizzled you are how hardened by tragedy or past trauma there’s still a human element to all of these situations. Seeing a person in that kind of desperate potentially life threatening state can affect even the toughest people. Seeing a person laying motionless on the field court ice etc is for people with a heart jarring and upsetting. If you are so far gone so heartless that you don’t see the humanity of this and it doesn’t get to you on some level you need help dude professional help because you’ve got some major concerns with lack of empathy. If you’re removed yourself detached yourself so far from these players that a dude literately falling motionless doesn’t make you feel worried and scared you got issues deep down you need to address. Regardless of past history or what you have or haven’t seen this should absolutely un nerve you because it’s a person lying not moving needing immediate medical attention. That has nothing to do with past injuries it’s a separate incident that no reasonable person would conflate with the past to justify not reacting in an emotional manner
Thank you so much for this info. Very informative. My wife and i watching the game a home, our hearts stopped, immediately grabbed our crosses around our necks with tears in our eyes praying for him
Love your channel, Doc. As an ex-pro player, I can say that initial cross check to the neck is WAY more traumatic than you asses it to be...."If you know, you know". Two hands close together holding a stick at full force into the neck, even at cpose range, can be devastating depending on where exactly the trauma is inflicted. Keep shining, doc 🙏💫
@@wakeup1783 Don't be a fucking tool. There are a lot more leagues than just the NHL around the world. Furthermore, is your faith in people so low that you assume everyone is a giant liar? I played Triple A for Little Caesers, and I'll supplement his statement, and say those sticks hurt in any location that isn't protected, when you get hit by anyone older than 12.
I got crosschecked in the neck when i was younger, pretty much in the same spot on the neck. It slid a vertebrae sideways and pinched a nerve down my right arm. I just about passed out. I could hear my teammates saying that I was turning green.
Thank you! Saw this and was really wondering what could have happened. Hope he’s okay, he was so passed out. I was surprised he got off the ice without the stretcher.
We were there and saw it happen . He was out cold before he hit the ice . He was out for a while . He finally woke back up and they had to help him off the ice and he was still out of it .
Great analysis! Another point about Kelly's stick - you can see both before and after how the butt end of his stick is _not_ visible: unless Kelly is very clever and diabolical, the butt end of his stick did not come into play. I think it's worth noting, also, that Kelly's presence helped prevent Larkin face-planting directly to the ice. I had initially thought, given his injury history, that it might've been nerves in the neck... but you're right, the trainers on the ice would never have let him back up since presumably there would still be tingling, etc... so far yours is the best explanation I've seen.
The end might not have out but I think just the fact that he had in his hand mightve made the impact harder? I don't think that makes sense, just a guess
Honestly, this is the first time I actually disagree with ya Doc. Those "benign" blows are coming from adrenalized, strong, professional athletes. They may look innocent, but I'm willing to bet there's a helluva lot more power than what it looks like
With the glove though... and watching it in real-time.... i really don't think so. Especially with his history of bizarre neck injury. Terrence McKinney is an MMA fighter that got KO'd cold just like this from a knee hitting the side of his neck
Yeah, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Most doctors are about half as smart as they think they are anyway. Jamie Benn is a 6'2" 207lbs goon. There's nothing "benign" about having that animal cross check the back of your neck.
It's not a glove, the glove covers the stick you don't see hitting him in the jaw, look closely slow it down and you'll see it, a stick doesn't disappear because a glove is covering it.
@@bradmaguire9611 I saw this live and over several replays -- and having played the game at high levels over several decades, I agree with you on this. And I agree with the original comment that the good Dr.'s assessment of a "benign hit" is inaccurate. I echo what @lonewolfpoetics posted and add that hockey players can easily "hide" the knob of a stick just off the glove.....I watched this replay at least a dozen times and Joseph and #27 knew exactly what they were doing (although organic in the moment, not planned) as well as who they were doing it to. Missing from the good doctor's context in his assessment is also the cheap shot Joseph did to Larkin previously as well as Larkin's sucker punch retaliation that got him suspended. In the NHL, it's all about winning and there is a lot of targeting still going on of the league's top players. It all is part of the context of this play.
Wow, thats kind of incredible. I had no idea your body actually monitored your blood pressure and find it interesting that outside pressure can have an affect on the part that does monitor it.
I really thought his collapse was a concussion caused by the sudden head pivot with 27's punch (albeit weak). I never would have thought of the carotid sinus. Interesting. It's scary how often our body's perfectly balanced functions is also its own double-edged sword.
That looked like a shot right to the jaw to me. Seemed pretty clear in the one shot that he hit the guy on the right side of his jaw with his right glove. Getting hit on the lower side of the jaw like that is a very common way for a ko in fighting.
With the glove though... and watching it in real-time.... i really don't think so. Especially with his history of bizarre neck injury. Terrence McKinney is an MMA fighter that got KO'd cold just like this from a knee hitting the side of his neck
I agree with the stick butt to the jaw. Reminds me of something discussed in martial arts about how bare knuckle is safer than padding for the brain because the body will shut off when all the force is applied to a small point (like the butt of a hockey stick) in a nerve rich area (jaw). Also isn’t the other players push still related because it removes the space for movement to dissipate the force? Wouldn’t that lower the threshold for a knockout and perhaps look “benign” (doesn’t seem benign to me when his head is pinned between 2 players at speed… but just my opi)
Liked the video very informative, helpful, interesting, and dived deep into different concepts and used previous examples of stuff happening like that in the past! Just subbed!!
Thanks for the video! I think I've experienced that carotid sinus sensitivity issue. I was helping a friend carry a 120 pound Burmese python. I had him on my right shoulder as we walked. At one point, he bent his body just a little, and his muscular side pressed against my neck. At first, I didn't think anything of the situation. He was stretched out completely. I wasn't standing there with a twelve-foot-long snake wrapped around my neck. The front, back, and left side of my neck were completely free of snake or anything else. Then, I suddenly felt faint. I was still walking, but my vision started to go dark and I felt very faint. I adjusted him slightly so that he was more on my shoulder joint and deltoid and not touching my neck. Within seconds, the faint feelings were completely gone. I always thought that maybe the circulation to my brain was cut off for a few seconds. If I correctly understand what you are saying, the circulation wasn't cut off but that spot detected a higher blood pressure than usual. My brain then lowered my overall blood pressure which had the same effect of depriving my brain of oxygen. Do you think this is possible?
You don't see it from that angle but #21 hits Larkin squarely on the jaw with his left gloved hand from the other side and of course Larkin doesn't see it coming.
I was wondering if anyone would mention that. As he's hitting him in the back of the head with the end of his stick, (jst cuz he's got a glove on doesn't mean he doesn't feel the stick) he's also getting an uppercut to the face simultaneously...But another thing I noticed on these replays, is Kelly not really letting up, but rather ramming his fist into the side of Larkins head...Maybe not on purpose, but not exactly an "accident" either...So he got his head rattled 3 times in one play..Not to mention fallin face 1st on the ice...Hope he recovers from it. Think Joseph should get the suspension as well. Slow motion replay shows Joseph staring at Larks head knowing exactly what he's doing. I'd think differently if he wasn't staring right at him while he was givin him the dbl whammy...
This was 100% him being knocked unconscious due to the blow from Kelly (unintentional) but at 2:39 look at the helmet whip forward and to the side, in slow motion. That is what his brain was doing inside his skull. He was being pushed forward by Joseph then stopped absolutely dead by the oncoming hit from the hand/butt end of the stick from Kelly. Look at the visor flex inward at 3:05, he was hit directly in the face, not the neck. You can see the visor appears to be popped right off the side of the helmet at 3:16. It was a very strong blow.
2:42 Ok I'm not a doctor in any sense of the word, but oddly enough my first thought was, "was there a blood flow interruption?" I once watched a woman get hoisted up with the wrong type of body harness during a safety course on using harnesses, and she blacked out and started to convulse. They let her down, and when she came to, she looked up at all of us surprised, as she had no idea what just happened. What HAD happened was her harness pressed up against her neck as they hoisted her. Like I said, wrong type of harness was used (the criss-cross style).
The head blow was the butt end of a stick on the back of his neck pushing him into a the butt end of a stick hitting him in the jaw, you can't see this because players wear gloves, but if you know whats hitting him, this is a pretty obvious concussion. So Doctor if a stick is being pressed on the back of your neck and another stick hits you in the jaw, what do you think will happen? Dont need a doctor for this if you know whats hitting him. Your not looking at the right angle on this hit, which is why your kissing #27 stick hitting him in the jaw.
One must remember hockey players, especially professionals, are very good at making a lick look innocent when it isn't. They have done this their entire life and hockey is a man's sport. Men are going to get their licks in when they can and they are going to protect themselves in the process.
Watching the replay many times over, it appears his knees are solidly under him until he takes the second hit to the chin. It’s after the second hit that his knees give out and we’d have to assume that is when he’s knocked unconscious. I disagree and do feel that second hit 100% contacted his chin, I think what you aren’t considering is it appears he caught the side of the glove to his chin moving in an upward direction as his head/neck were being pushed down from behind. I would say it’s possible he caught the butt end of the players stick to his chin and he was unable to absorb the hit with the forward pressure coming from behind. This is likely what knocked him unconscious and is a common phenomenon in fights with “glass chin”. As he did get up he did raise his right hand to the right side of his face.
Hockey players are as tough as come! Thanks Doc! This encounter should liven things a bit for their next meeting! Larken skated off, he'll be good to go once he gets a through exam by Team Doctors and/Or Specialists.
I have a bad feeling we’re going to see more cases of CTE due to the amount blows to the head they take. I’ve seen horrendous head injuries while I worked for the Dallas Stars.
This was so scary to watch. And it's even scarier because this means that, in a way, the "vulcan neck pinch" is actually somewhat real. I had no idea a blood pressure drop like that was possible. Hoping he and his family will all be OK.
#21 and #27 will be well taken care of on January 31st when these teams meet again. This is hockey, and when the refs shit to bed, the players will police themselves. Hopefully they take Tkachuks face and make it a permanent part of the ice. You don't fuck with a teams captain, and this is completely unacceptable in hockey terms....
The question is who do the Red Wings have to do that now? Fischer was well-intended but if that was a fight my bobble-head could have landed more punches effectively. And of course the league will be watching so it's gonna be interesting.....I will be there or watching.
There are no quick changes on his head moving, so there are no hard hit. Hard hit cause sudden change on head movement. Just watch slowmo boxing where hit cause instant change of direction.
If I understood correctly sir , you said it's the 2nd player that would have affected his neck ? There's pictures showing he was out after that initial first " push or shove ". Very interesting stuff thanks.
I was at this game, 8 rows up, right behind the blue line on the penalty box side. We thought we just witnessed our captain die in front of us. It was very scary.
@@TheParadoxDestroyer I know perfectly well. but I want to see if you know. because you described it as a "crosscheck to the neck". but Joseph literally only had one hand on his stick. so tell me, what do you think a crosscheck is
That seemed relatively fast for when he came to to when he was able to get up entirely. I have epilepsy and it can take a while for me to come to after a seizure since I have no aura and fall straight to the ground. Is that where the hit to the neck vs hit to the head is the difference?
From some of the photos it looked like he was out before hitting Kelly’s stick and the scans came back clear, interested to see what you think if it’s not a concussion or that blood pressure thing (although I suppose that blood pressure thing hasn’t been ruled out)
thank you for covering this, even most of the hockey channels on youtube never discuss the wings. regardless of what happened on the ice, the sens fans have been despicable online. a player is seriously hurt and they are talking shit about the redwings. while at the bottom of the division. as a redwings fan, i love the sens, theyre a fun team to watch, but the way their fans have responded to this is disgusting. sadly its not just sens fans. lots of the league's fans hate the wings. as a kid who grew up in Detroit for two cups and then moved to Tampa for two cups, i really just love to see good hockey no matter who wins. im sure theyll rise above this but i really hope larkin is ok, i know he had past neck injuries.
Sens fan here, not looking for an argument or anything like that at all but I think you might be cherry picking a little here. 99% of the comments I've seen from other Sens fans have been ones wishing Larkin all the best and hoping that he's ok.
@@stevenightfall6634 I've seen some pretty nasty stuff about Larkin from some sens fans. A few making fun of how he looked when knocked out, or one wishing he has a career ending injury. Wings fans aren't totally innocent either. They were understandably upset, but took it too far by wishing harm to Joseph. We need more level headed people in both fan bases lmao
@@stevenightfall6634 not looking to argue either I'll chalk it up to the algorithm, I was at a party when it happened so I had to rely on Twitter and all it was showing me was people (mainly sens fans) dumping on Detroit. A lot of individuals but I specifically remember the sens chrip twitter saying "just a remarkably trash hockey team in every way possible" about Detroit. Wasn't the only thing i saw but the one I remember most. Already cringe when you consider Detroit best them once this year and had a way better record but on top of the injury that's just poor taste.
To be honest, the wings fans (and Perron) wanted blood before realizing the true extent of the issue. Most hockey fans I've seen are just putting those wings fans back in reality a bit. When you watch the whole play, including after the injury, saying this play was intentional by any means is just unnecessary. Noone wants to see any injury to any player, and personally I think Perron made a mistake there trying for the eye for an eye approach.
@@JSON_bourne Sens fan here as well and I haven’t seen anything like that. I would say we may be pissed with Perron cross checking Zub in the head, a guy who had nothing to do with what happened other than he was pushed onto the pile.
CSH is good option to go with from the video at hand. My guess the butt end of #27’s stick, maybe combined with the palm, made contact with Larkin’s jaw en route to his neck/shoulder. What is REALLY throwing me is after both of these events, when he should be unconscious, you see Larkin’s left hand pull up and toward his neck. It looks too intentional to be unconscious floppy arm. That’s the correct medical term, right?
So looks like 21 is pushing on his left side of his neck, where 27 hits him on the right side of the neck, sandwiching his neck, he goes out n then hits his head on the ice. I think what you're talking about took him out, but ice isn't forgiving n he also could have a concussion from the fall to the ice. Prayers go out to him.
Kelly and Joseph made contact with Larkin's head at about the same time. So Larkin's head wasn't able to move away and dissipate the force of either blow. While neither of the blows were that hard on their own but together at the same time he's takes the full force of each blow. Now would't that be more than enough force to knock him out and give him a concussion??
Watching slowmo replays for this is misleading. It looks “benign” in slowmo. At full speed you can see head get popped pretty hard. Watch that 10 times in a row. Knockout isn’t surprising regardless of his history.
Thanks doc. Do you think with how quickly Larkin was out (presumably before he even hit the ice) that the carotid syncope could cause that quick of a reaction? I would think that would take longer for him to go unconscious if that was the only trigger.
Good presentation. I would include evaluation for carotid and vertebral artery injury. In real time it looked more coup-contracoup knock out. In slow motion I agree with the second player likely impacted right coronary sinus. Needs MRI for high cervical ligamentous injury.
It was the #27 that hit his jaw. Just like how you see in fighting. His head wasn't able to have room to recoil back since the other players hand was already pushing his head forward. Lights out.
When Crosby had prolonged post concussion symptoms I believe it came out that it was a damaged ir miss aligned part of the spine in a similar are. Do you think this could be similar or I'd that just a reach
Watch 2:36 to 2:38 at .25x speed, keeping in mind you can't see the butt end of the stick (black on black), and watch Larkins helmet twist as he's nailed in the lower right jaw. May as well have been a left hook from Connor MacGregor... sorry Doc it's a straight up knockout. I thought he was stunned and maybe hit his head on the ice on the way down but it's pretty clear his lights were already out from the cheap shot. It's a common dirty tactic. I found an example you can see better due to the contrasting colors: ua-cam.com/video/oOxB4QP7q7o/v-deo.html
never heard of the hyper sensitivity of the sinus... that makes a lot of sense. Since you said that, looking at the point where a hand is on each side of the neck, I wonder if it stopped enough blood flow to cause the passing out in addition to the hypersensitive sinus. And then the final theory, as someone with significant head trauma, each time i get hit in the head, i will drop to the ground and stay still (for obvious reasons) but also I feel like I detach from my body if that makes sense. I know I can move my arms and legs but in the moment they feel foreign.
The first blow created a downward force that magnified the impact of the second blow. Both were just hockey plays but the combination of the forces meeting made it really bad. It was the second blow that TKO'd him not the first and not his head hitting the ice.
Thank you for the, as always fantastic diagnosis of these injuries that you cover.. If I had a doctor like you around when I was working NYC as an EMT ambulance driver back in the neanderthal 80sI would have still been involved..( never really stopped just isn't my means of income)
If only Perron could’ve been aimed at the right player, and good on Fischer on dropping the gloves, took too long but it’s better than nothing, and he definitely got the better of Joseph in that D O N N Y B R O O K
I have low blood pressure, and I was very quickly wondering if this was a blood pressure thing. That looks like how it feels when my blood pressure takes a further dive
Carotid Sinus Hypersensitivity was something I was thinking about after watching the replays. Especially knowing his history. Either way, hopefully he is ok and recovering well.
Concussion is still certainly the first thing to think of here, so don’t think this video is me saying that’s not possible. This is just an alternative pathology to think about when the blow to the head wasn’t as intense as we can often see in hockey
Great educational piece tonight, Doc. As a newer practicing athletic trainer, I have not heard of carotid sinus hypersensitivity before. I enjoy watching hockey, but not working it, as I just am not of fan all the potential seriousness of injuries, as well as the consistent underreporting of them. But this surely gives some new insights for a differential diagnosis. Thanks!
is there a difference in how the body reacts (specifically the arms) when it is knocked unconscious from a blow to the head vs a sudden drop in blood pressure.?
@@tchevrier the short answer is that with head trauma like with a concussion sometimes, posturing (body rigidity) can occur. There are three primary types of posturing, but all elicit stiffness in limbs, torso and/or neck. Sometimes there is not posturing with head trauma. In the case of low blood pressure, one usually presents lifelessly, and simply falls down limply.
@@johnjunietify Thanks.
Is there any type of device wearable that can prevent this from happening? Like the wearable neck guard to protect your neck artery from being cut.
He and his family are going through a lot already. Hoping and praying for the best.
Exactly what I’m thinking, I can’t imagine what Mrs. Larkin was thinking
literally my First thought was poor kenzie, i hope she's with other people/isn't watching this by herself :((
What are they going through (before this incident)?
@@hampton1947 Dylan and his wife shared that she was pregnant. She was probably 20 something weeks and had a miscarriage. Dylan missed a couple of games for an undisclosed reason and this is likely that
Pray to sky wizard
As a wings fan who was watching live, knowing his history with head/neck injuries in the past with hits from Jamie Benn in 2020 and Mathieu Joseph (who was also involved in tonight’s play) in 2021, this was definitely very scary to watch. Hopefully he’ll be alright, and be brought back in the appropriate amount of time. Thanks doc!
I’m a wings fan too and watched the game the way he was laying on the ice and not moving I thought he died I hope our cap gets better
I was about 30ft from him in the stands during this. Very scary
Sounds like he should retire is a weak ass hit like this puts him out like that
@@jaydensmith3933 Ya that was a scary moment, still waiting for new and nothing yet. (side note: when I first read "I hope our cap gets better" I thought you meant you hoped the injury would open up salary cap space, which I thought was a pretty messed up place to go, then I realized you meant captain!)
Doc Jamie Benn tried to chop his head off with that cross check. Can you say quack quack?
Interesting video! In my opinion no matter if it was Carotid sinus hypersensitivity or a brain injury, this was a good opportunity to discuss CSH. I'd never heard of this and talking about things like this is exactly the point of this channel! It's unfortunate that a player was injured but I think it's great that you can bring something good and educational out of a bad situation! My thoughts and prayers are with the player and his loved ones and I wish him a speedy recovery!
When an athlete goes down then doesn’t move, it’s so damn scary. Thanks Dr Brian.
Larkin also has a small history of head and neck injuries and that was my biggest worry
I was at the game….it was absolutely terrifying. The entire arena was SILENT! You couldn’t heard a pin drop. I sat there nearly holding my breath just praying he’d get up! I hope he is okay and can recover quickly. He and his family are already going through enough. Appreciate this break down and the medical knowledge, I work in healthcare so this is helpful for education!
I chuckled a little when you said he took "a presumably benign looking shot". from a 6'2" 205lb guy with a hockey stick.
Hey Brian could you cover Patrick Kane’s hip resurfacing procedure? I know the basics but I’d love to hear from a professional what happens, how they do it, what it’s correcting, then prognosis and why it’s ended so many careers
let me ask you
what kind of doctor has time to make clickbait screenshots
if you ever took advice from him you should sue
@@blackoutgstar9949the picture is literally what happened
every doctor in the world has time to take a screenshot. What are you talking about? You think all doctors work 140 hours a week, and none of them have hobbies?@@blackoutgstar9949
@@blackoutgstar9949 looking this guy up gets plenty of results. it's pretty easy to do these days.
@@blackoutgstar9949 Don't worry, I've reported your intelligence as "missing" to the appropriate authorities.
One of the best YT channels out there days. So much information for people who don’t know much about this stuff
Jamie Benns hit to the neck of Larkin was not “benign”….
It was a brutal, two-handed cross check to the back of Larkins neck, while the latter was bent over for a face off. Benn leaned over Larkin, and put all of his weight and strength into a forceful, downwards cross check. That play was brutally dangerous and so far out of the realm of normal hockey violence/danger.
Of course, your professional and in depth analysis has much more merit than this sports medicine doc
@@bnandersonxoh please. Benn has a history of this kinda shit. If you had eyes better than Stevie Wonder, you’d see what he’s saying is completely right.
I’m not a doctor but it looked like #27 hit him “on the button” on that sensitive spot along the jaw that you see fighters get knocked out a lot when hit.
With the glove though... and watching it in real-time.... i really don't think so. Especially with his history of bizarre neck injury. Terrence McKinney is an MMA fighter that got KO'd cold just like this from a knee hitting the side of his neck
@@SupaBuuyou will be soon proven wrong
Was thinking the same especially with his head going into the blow from 21
Those gloves aren't that soft. They wear them to protect their hands. The padding inside is very unforgiving. You could get hit with something soft on the chin and as long as you get a little twist and the right angle you'll go out. He wasn't ready for that and didn't see it coming.
Bingo. That’s exactly what happened. Butt end of the stick right on the button.
Very few things are as shocking to read as _____ lying motionless. Whether it’s an athlete or someone on the street when it’s this bad they are not moving the situation is truly critical. God Bless that young man. Hockey is a great sport and it matters but a persons day to day ability to live breathe eat function as a person take precedence over everything else.
Bro what? Never seen any kind of martial art??
@@thomascunning8248whoosh
@@thomascunning8248I’ve seen plenty of MMA boxing and many other combat sports. Having experience seeing something doesn’t make it any less difficult when it occurs again. If a firefighter has seen tons of people burned in fires he’s not going to stop caring or not have an emotional reaction the next time he sees a burn victim. No matter how grizzled you are how hardened by tragedy or past trauma there’s still a human element to all of these situations. Seeing a person in that kind of desperate potentially life threatening state can affect even the toughest people.
Seeing a person laying motionless on the field court ice etc is for people with a heart jarring and upsetting.
If you are so far gone so heartless that you don’t see the humanity of this and it doesn’t get to you on some level you need help dude professional help because you’ve got some major concerns with lack of empathy. If you’re removed yourself detached yourself so far from these players that a dude literately falling motionless doesn’t make you feel worried and scared you got issues deep down you need to address.
Regardless of past history or what you have or haven’t seen this should absolutely un nerve you because it’s a person lying not moving needing immediate medical attention. That has nothing to do with past injuries it’s a separate incident that no reasonable person would conflate with the past to justify not reacting in an emotional manner
Thats crazy I hope he recovers and comes back better than ever!!!
Thank you so much for this info. Very informative. My wife and i watching the game a home, our hearts stopped, immediately grabbed our crosses around our necks with tears in our eyes praying for him
Love your channel, Doc. As an ex-pro player, I can say that initial cross check to the neck is WAY more traumatic than you asses it to be...."If you know, you know". Two hands close together holding a stick at full force into the neck, even at cpose range, can be devastating depending on where exactly the trauma is inflicted. Keep shining, doc 🙏💫
What team did you play for
You were not a ex pro player lmao you live in mommy's basement buddy
@@wakeup1783 Don't be a fucking tool. There are a lot more leagues than just the NHL around the world. Furthermore, is your faith in people so low that you assume everyone is a giant liar? I played Triple A for Little Caesers, and I'll supplement his statement, and say those sticks hurt in any location that isn't protected, when you get hit by anyone older than 12.
I got crosschecked in the neck when i was younger, pretty much in the same spot on the neck. It slid a vertebrae sideways and pinched a nerve down my right arm. I just about passed out. I could hear my teammates saying that I was turning green.
Thank you! Saw this and was really wondering what could have happened. Hope he’s okay, he was so passed out. I was surprised he got off the ice without the stretcher.
2:22 it looks like #27 Kelly connected with #71s right jaw with a strike just prior to him losing consciousness.
We were there and saw it happen . He was out cold before he hit the ice . He was out for a while . He finally woke back up and they had to help him off the ice and he was still out of it .
I think it was the handle of the dudes stick that caught him in the back of the lower part of his head
#21 was pushing his head down into #27... magnifying the blow as well
Great analysis! Another point about Kelly's stick - you can see both before and after how the butt end of his stick is _not_ visible: unless Kelly is very clever and diabolical, the butt end of his stick did not come into play. I think it's worth noting, also, that Kelly's presence helped prevent Larkin face-planting directly to the ice.
I had initially thought, given his injury history, that it might've been nerves in the neck... but you're right, the trainers on the ice would never have let him back up since presumably there would still be tingling, etc... so far yours is the best explanation I've seen.
The end might not have out but I think just the fact that he had in his hand mightve made the impact harder? I don't think that makes sense, just a guess
Honestly, this is the first time I actually disagree with ya Doc. Those "benign" blows are coming from adrenalized, strong, professional athletes. They may look innocent, but I'm willing to bet there's a helluva lot more power than what it looks like
With the glove though... and watching it in real-time.... i really don't think so. Especially with his history of bizarre neck injury. Terrence McKinney is an MMA fighter that got KO'd cold just like this from a knee hitting the side of his neck
Yeah, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Most doctors are about half as smart as they think they are anyway. Jamie Benn is a 6'2" 207lbs goon. There's nothing "benign" about having that animal cross check the back of your neck.
And look at the head reaction - thats a hard hit right on the jaw
It's not a glove, the glove covers the stick you don't see hitting him in the jaw, look closely slow it down and you'll see it, a stick doesn't disappear because a glove is covering it.
@@bradmaguire9611 I saw this live and over several replays -- and having played the game at high levels over several decades, I agree with you on this. And I agree with the original comment that the good Dr.'s assessment of a "benign hit" is inaccurate. I echo what @lonewolfpoetics posted and add that hockey players can easily "hide" the knob of a stick just off the glove.....I watched this replay at least a dozen times and Joseph and #27 knew exactly what they were doing (although organic in the moment, not planned) as well as who they were doing it to. Missing from the good doctor's context in his assessment is also the cheap shot Joseph did to Larkin previously as well as Larkin's sucker punch retaliation that got him suspended. In the NHL, it's all about winning and there is a lot of targeting still going on of the league's top players. It all is part of the context of this play.
Wow, thats kind of incredible. I had no idea your body actually monitored your blood pressure and find it interesting that outside pressure can have an affect on the part that does monitor it.
I really thought his collapse was a concussion caused by the sudden head pivot with 27's punch (albeit weak). I never would have thought of the carotid sinus. Interesting. It's scary how often our body's perfectly balanced functions is also its own double-edged sword.
Clearly KO'd by Kelly, right on the chin rotating the head
That looked like a shot right to the jaw to me. Seemed pretty clear in the one shot that he hit the guy on the right side of his jaw with his right glove. Getting hit on the lower side of the jaw like that is a very common way for a ko in fighting.
With the glove though... and watching it in real-time.... i really don't think so. Especially with his history of bizarre neck injury. Terrence McKinney is an MMA fighter that got KO'd cold just like this from a knee hitting the side of his neck
@@SupaBuu on the other side of the glove is the butt end of the hockey stick though. That's what probably hit him
I am with you. This was the jaw. Occam’s razor.
@@SupaBuu Those gloves are not soft.
I agree with the stick butt to the jaw. Reminds me of something discussed in martial arts about how bare knuckle is safer than padding for the brain because the body will shut off when all the force is applied to a small point (like the butt of a hockey stick) in a nerve rich area (jaw). Also isn’t the other players push still related because it removes the space for movement to dissipate the force? Wouldn’t that lower the threshold for a knockout and perhaps look “benign” (doesn’t seem benign to me when his head is pinned between 2 players at speed… but just my opi)
Liked the video very informative, helpful, interesting, and dived deep into different concepts and used previous examples of stuff happening like that in the past!
Just subbed!!
Thanks for the video!
I think I've experienced that carotid sinus sensitivity issue. I was helping a friend carry a 120 pound Burmese python. I had him on my right shoulder as we walked. At one point, he bent his body just a little, and his muscular side pressed against my neck. At first, I didn't think anything of the situation. He was stretched out completely. I wasn't standing there with a twelve-foot-long snake wrapped around my neck. The front, back, and left side of my neck were completely free of snake or anything else. Then, I suddenly felt faint. I was still walking, but my vision started to go dark and I felt very faint. I adjusted him slightly so that he was more on my shoulder joint and deltoid and not touching my neck. Within seconds, the faint feelings were completely gone.
I always thought that maybe the circulation to my brain was cut off for a few seconds. If I correctly understand what you are saying, the circulation wasn't cut off but that spot detected a higher blood pressure than usual. My brain then lowered my overall blood pressure which had the same effect of depriving my brain of oxygen. Do you think this is possible?
You don't see it from that angle but #21 hits Larkin squarely on the jaw with his left gloved hand from the other side and of course Larkin doesn't see it coming.
I was wondering if anyone would mention that. As he's hitting him in the back of the head with the end of his stick, (jst cuz he's got a glove on doesn't mean he doesn't feel the stick) he's also getting an uppercut to the face simultaneously...But another thing I noticed on these replays, is Kelly not really letting up, but rather ramming his fist into the side of Larkins head...Maybe not on purpose, but not exactly an "accident" either...So he got his head rattled 3 times in one play..Not to mention fallin face 1st on the ice...Hope he recovers from it. Think Joseph should get the suspension as well. Slow motion replay shows Joseph staring at Larks head knowing exactly what he's doing. I'd think differently if he wasn't staring right at him while he was givin him the dbl whammy...
This was 100% him being knocked unconscious due to the blow from Kelly (unintentional) but at 2:39 look at the helmet whip forward and to the side, in slow motion. That is what his brain was doing inside his skull. He was being pushed forward by Joseph then stopped absolutely dead by the oncoming hit from the hand/butt end of the stick from Kelly. Look at the visor flex inward at 3:05, he was hit directly in the face, not the neck. You can see the visor appears to be popped right off the side of the helmet at 3:16. It was a very strong blow.
2:42 Ok I'm not a doctor in any sense of the word, but oddly enough my first thought was, "was there a blood flow interruption?" I once watched a woman get hoisted up with the wrong type of body harness during a safety course on using harnesses, and she blacked out and started to convulse. They let her down, and when she came to, she looked up at all of us surprised, as she had no idea what just happened. What HAD happened was her harness pressed up against her neck as they hoisted her. Like I said, wrong type of harness was used (the criss-cross style).
My team took a wuppin' today too after giving up that game to San Jose smh. Need to rid of Husso. Seems like Larkin will be ok, though
Umm why Husso?
Can i interest you in a lightly used Jack Campbell?
The head blow was the butt end of a stick on the back of his neck pushing him into a the butt end of a stick hitting him in the jaw, you can't see this because players wear gloves, but if you know whats hitting him, this is a pretty obvious concussion. So Doctor if a stick is being pressed on the back of your neck and another stick hits you in the jaw, what do you think will happen? Dont need a doctor for this if you know whats hitting him. Your not looking at the right angle on this hit, which is why your kissing #27 stick hitting him in the jaw.
One must remember hockey players, especially professionals, are very good at making a lick look innocent when it isn't. They have done this their entire life and hockey is a man's sport. Men are going to get their licks in when they can and they are going to protect themselves in the process.
Going to be interesting to hear the teams statement and where Larks career goes from here
From this video, Joseph should still be under review as he was clearly aiming directly for the head.
Watching the replay many times over, it appears his knees are solidly under him until he takes the second hit to the chin. It’s after the second hit that his knees give out and we’d have to assume that is when he’s knocked unconscious. I disagree and do feel that second hit 100% contacted his chin, I think what you aren’t considering is it appears he caught the side of the glove to his chin moving in an upward direction as his head/neck were being pushed down from behind. I would say it’s possible he caught the butt end of the players stick to his chin and he was unable to absorb the hit with the forward pressure coming from behind. This is likely what knocked him unconscious and is a common phenomenon in fights with “glass chin”. As he did get up he did raise his right hand to the right side of his face.
Hockey players are as tough as come! Thanks Doc! This encounter should liven things a bit for their next meeting! Larken skated off, he'll be good to go once he gets a through exam by Team Doctors and/Or Specialists.
Flyers fan here and I was so worried when this happened. You never wanna see anyone get hurt.
I have a bad feeling we’re going to see more cases of CTE due to the amount blows to the head they take. I’ve seen horrendous head injuries while I worked for the Dallas Stars.
Dropping Mike Modano off the stretcher was horrendous.
This was so scary to watch. And it's even scarier because this means that, in a way, the "vulcan neck pinch" is actually somewhat real. I had no idea a blood pressure drop like that was possible. Hoping he and his family will all be OK.
Do you think Neck guards coming soon than there's been a lot of shots in hockey from there.
Looks pretty clear #27 caught him in the face and he was heading in. Right on the jaw line and can see the immediate head whip back a bit
All of these look "benign" when you watch them in fucking slow motion dawg
#21 and #27 will be well taken care of on January 31st when these teams meet again. This is hockey, and when the refs shit to bed, the players will police themselves. Hopefully they take Tkachuks face and make it a permanent part of the ice. You don't fuck with a teams captain, and this is completely unacceptable in hockey terms....
The question is who do the Red Wings have to do that now? Fischer was well-intended but if that was a fight my bobble-head could have landed more punches effectively. And of course the league will be watching so it's gonna be interesting.....I will be there or watching.
Will they be able to test Dylan for this condition?
What's the confusion? One guy hitting in the back of the head behind the ear and one hitting in the jaw
eck.
There are no quick changes on his head moving, so there are no hard hit. Hard hit cause sudden change on head movement. Just watch slowmo boxing where hit cause instant change of direction.
If I understood correctly sir , you said it's the 2nd player that would have affected his neck ? There's pictures showing he was out after that initial first " push or shove ". Very interesting stuff thanks.
great coverage
Feeling better about our Michigan made Captain after watching this...ty
I was at this game, 8 rows up, right behind the blue line on the penalty box side. We thought we just witnessed our captain die in front of us. It was very scary.
21 pushed his head with stick in hand▶️Suspension. Like a X check to the head. 27 may have been an inadvertent blow, maybe not?
# 27 Kelly clearly hit Larkin with the butt if his stick and knocked Larkin out before he hit the ice.
Mathieu Joseph needs discipline. He did not have to hit Larkin in the first place, let alone a crosscheck to the neck.
describe a crosscheck to me
@conallross1694 If you don't know I can't help you.
@@TheParadoxDestroyer I know perfectly well. but I want to see if you know. because you described it as a "crosscheck to the neck". but Joseph literally only had one hand on his stick. so tell me, what do you think a crosscheck is
@@CRossTak Read the interpretation section of Rule 9.2(a) as well as Rule 7.6.
That seemed relatively fast for when he came to to when he was able to get up entirely. I have epilepsy and it can take a while for me to come to after a seizure since I have no aura and fall straight to the ground. Is that where the hit to the neck vs hit to the head is the difference?
In old slap stick movies, a judo chop to the neck area would see someone collapse unconscious. Would this be similar to what you're explaining to us?
Awesome detail and information
Always love your hockey videos, Doc!
From some of the photos it looked like he was out before hitting Kelly’s stick and the scans came back clear, interested to see what you think if it’s not a concussion or that blood pressure thing (although I suppose that blood pressure thing hasn’t been ruled out)
thank you for covering this, even most of the hockey channels on youtube never discuss the wings. regardless of what happened on the ice, the sens fans have been despicable online. a player is seriously hurt and they are talking shit about the redwings. while at the bottom of the division. as a redwings fan, i love the sens, theyre a fun team to watch, but the way their fans have responded to this is disgusting. sadly its not just sens fans. lots of the league's fans hate the wings. as a kid who grew up in Detroit for two cups and then moved to Tampa for two cups, i really just love to see good hockey no matter who wins. im sure theyll rise above this but i really hope larkin is ok, i know he had past neck injuries.
Sens fan here, not looking for an argument or anything like that at all but I think you might be cherry picking a little here. 99% of the comments I've seen from other Sens fans have been ones wishing Larkin all the best and hoping that he's ok.
@@stevenightfall6634 I've seen some pretty nasty stuff about Larkin from some sens fans. A few making fun of how he looked when knocked out, or one wishing he has a career ending injury.
Wings fans aren't totally innocent either. They were understandably upset, but took it too far by wishing harm to Joseph.
We need more level headed people in both fan bases lmao
@@stevenightfall6634 not looking to argue either I'll chalk it up to the algorithm, I was at a party when it happened so I had to rely on Twitter and all it was showing me was people (mainly sens fans) dumping on Detroit. A lot of individuals but I specifically remember the sens chrip twitter saying "just a remarkably trash hockey team in every way possible" about Detroit. Wasn't the only thing i saw but the one I remember most. Already cringe when you consider Detroit best them once this year and had a way better record but on top of the injury that's just poor taste.
To be honest, the wings fans (and Perron) wanted blood before realizing the true extent of the issue. Most hockey fans I've seen are just putting those wings fans back in reality a bit. When you watch the whole play, including after the injury, saying this play was intentional by any means is just unnecessary. Noone wants to see any injury to any player, and personally I think Perron made a mistake there trying for the eye for an eye approach.
@@JSON_bourne Sens fan here as well and I haven’t seen anything like that. I would say we may be pissed with Perron cross checking Zub in the head, a guy who had nothing to do with what happened other than he was pushed onto the pile.
Thanks doctor, and he was straightup knocked out. Have to check injury list.
Great breakdown!
Very interesting. Best wishes for Dylan Larkin!
CSH is good option to go with from the video at hand. My guess the butt end of #27’s stick, maybe combined with the palm, made contact with Larkin’s jaw en route to his neck/shoulder. What is REALLY throwing me is after both of these events, when he should be unconscious, you see Larkin’s left hand pull up and toward his neck. It looks too intentional to be unconscious floppy arm. That’s the correct medical term, right?
21 Cross check to the neck WHILE (simultaneously ) 27 butt-end to the head
Fascinating analysis. Thanks for the information.
Fascinating. I’ve never heard of that. Thanks, Doc!
So looks like 21 is pushing on his left side of his neck, where 27 hits him on the right side of the neck, sandwiching his neck, he goes out n then hits his head on the ice. I think what you're talking about took him out, but ice isn't forgiving n he also could have a concussion from the fall to the ice. Prayers go out to him.
It really looks like you're right. Thank you for your analysis
Dayum it’s so bizarre like you said it Brian it looked so harmless
Kelly and Joseph made contact with Larkin's head at about the same time. So Larkin's head wasn't able to move away and dissipate the force of either blow. While neither of the blows were that hard on their own but together at the same time he's takes the full force of each blow. Now would't that be more than enough force to knock him out and give him a concussion??
Watching slowmo replays for this is misleading. It looks “benign” in slowmo. At full speed you can see head get popped pretty hard. Watch that 10 times in a row. Knockout isn’t surprising regardless of his history.
Thanks doc. Do you think with how quickly Larkin was out (presumably before he even hit the ice) that the carotid syncope could cause that quick of a reaction? I would think that would take longer for him to go unconscious if that was the only trigger.
Fascinating, I figured it was something like this. Thanks for the explanation.
Hopefully he's ok and can bounce back. Great video, I didn't know about the blood pressure thing.
Dylan Larkin with the glass jaw… it definitely looked like 27’s “fist” is what did it… I’ve seen weirder knockouts, for sure
Good presentation. I would include evaluation for carotid and vertebral artery injury. In real time it looked more coup-contracoup knock out. In slow motion I agree with the second player likely impacted right coronary sinus. Needs MRI for high cervical ligamentous injury.
It was the #27 that hit his jaw. Just like how you see in fighting. His head wasn't able to have room to recoil back since the other players hand was already pushing his head forward. Lights out.
Awesome analysis. Thank you.
Hockey players can produce a concentration of violence and the tape shows a 'a little push'. Don't be fooled; that guy was mugged.
When Crosby had prolonged post concussion symptoms I believe it came out that it was a damaged ir miss aligned part of the spine in a similar are. Do you think this could be similar or I'd that just a reach
Awesome breakdown
@BrianSuttererMD
Is it possible to faint from an intense morning stretch ?
Watch 2:36 to 2:38 at .25x speed, keeping in mind you can't see the butt end of the stick (black on black), and watch Larkins helmet twist as he's nailed in the lower right jaw. May as well have been a left hook from Connor MacGregor... sorry Doc it's a straight up knockout. I thought he was stunned and maybe hit his head on the ice on the way down but it's pretty clear his lights were already out from the cheap shot. It's a common dirty tactic.
I found an example you can see better due to the contrasting colors: ua-cam.com/video/oOxB4QP7q7o/v-deo.html
Brian, take a look again. It's number 27 that makes the significant contact with Larkin's head. In fact, its a knockout blow.
never heard of the hyper sensitivity of the sinus... that makes a lot of sense. Since you said that, looking at the point where a hand is on each side of the neck, I wonder if it stopped enough blood flow to cause the passing out in addition to the hypersensitive sinus. And then the final theory, as someone with significant head trauma, each time i get hit in the head, i will drop to the ground and stay still (for obvious reasons) but also I feel like I detach from my body if that makes sense. I know I can move my arms and legs but in the moment they feel foreign.
doc i have a problem of pain in shin because of my calf muscle can youu help me
Is this sensitivity of the carotid sinus something that a doctor could treat, or perhaps some extra padding around the neck?
The first blow created a downward force that magnified the impact of the second blow. Both were just hockey plays but the combination of the forces meeting made it really bad. It was the second blow that TKO'd him not the first and not his head hitting the ice.
I know we don't know anything yet, but do you see him coming back to play by the end of the year?
Thank you for the, as always fantastic diagnosis of these injuries that you cover..
If I had a doctor like you around when I was working NYC as an EMT ambulance driver back in the neanderthal 80sI would have still been involved..( never really stopped just isn't my means of income)
If only Perron could’ve been aimed at the right player, and good on Fischer on dropping the gloves, took too long but it’s better than nothing, and he definitely got the better of Joseph in that D O N N Y B R O O K
I have low blood pressure, and I was very quickly wondering if this was a blood pressure thing. That looks like how it feels when my blood pressure takes a further dive
Vasovagal syncope - vagus nerve shot. Jaw shot could add concussion
What a dirty hit
was thinking that hand/butt end from 21 was the wammy that finished him off.
professional view is great
Cross checks to the neck/head are not benign. Kelly might have butt ended him as well.
Carotid Sinus Hypersensitivity was something I was thinking about after watching the replays. Especially knowing his history. Either way, hopefully he is ok and recovering well.