It was wierd because they were trying to make the next generation the protagonists of the story, even killing Vegeta and all. But after they royally messed up, Goku and Vegeta had to take the mantle once again.
I would have loved to see Goten and Trunks becoming groomed to be the later heroes and Mystic Gohan being in the spotlight for longer but of course... back to square one. Vegeta and Goku could've had some neat adventures in the afterlife
DBZMacky no their mistake was trying to make Gohan a bookworm. In the cell saga Gohan had a balance between studying and training. In the buu saga he went completely towards his studies even though he was built up as the new hero of the show. They should have written him better and not listened to angry fanboys. Then they brought back Goku after giving him an excellent send-off.
Yeah personally the only thing to fix about the buu arc is the undercooked bloated final fight. It should have ended with gohan, gotenks, piccolo and krillin(with a spirit bomb and learning kaioken with piccolo defending krillin while gohan and gotenks take on kid buu) teaming up and saying their goodbyes to goku and vegeta on Kai’s planet after buu’s defeat instead of making the death of characters easily reversible(that’s why the cell arc was so iconic and great because it was a great ending of character arcs with proper subverted expectations instead of sacrificing side/future characters completely).
The Buu saga is unfortunately where a lot of characters stopped being relevant. Piccolo was stronger than Vegeta and Goku at one point on Namek. Again during the Android saga he became stronger than SSj Vegeta and Goku, and he got even stronger than that later after entering the time chamber. During the Buu saga he was a joke. He never got to a level that could compete with Goku and Vegeta like he did in the previous saga’s. And it just went downhill from there. Same happened to other characters. Kinda wish Tien and Piccolo stayed relevant in power.
I hope tfs doesn't do super cause....NO TIEN....well there is A BIT in battle o gods and res of f but after that ...no tien until universe survival arc
Yeah buu saga was the start of “well, lets forget about the all the side characters and just focus on main/most favorite“ - which is god damn annoying In Storytelling the side characters are a important component for the plot as for the character progression of the main character(s). For example Krillins death (namek) etc. They form and for most fill the world the producer's suppose to create. For one sentence : "They're VERY IMPORTANT"
And in addition --> the type of usage of side characters are very viable . Like for example bocu no hiro academia - they use their side characters to develop the main without letting the audience feel it forced. You have to remember that the side characters are characters, too. They all supposed to have some characteristics of its own , like own progression and motivations. Thats what makes them feel more natural.
°Mov-E° yeah... imagine if at the beginning of the Buu Saga Gohan was still training with Piccolo and having Gohan as a sparring partner helped increase piccolo’s strength. Tien mastered the tri-beam and found a way to do it without losing as much health or something of the sort. Krillin kept up with training as well and got stronger. But yamcha just kinda played baseball, however there could be an episode where we actually see this (cause seriously, he’d be pretty over powered and have to hold back, it would be an amusing slice of life episode). So when they decide to go to the tournament, they’re all able to compete close to each other and it’s left a bit ambiguous who would win.
When you say "relevant", you mean "at the same level of power". Either way, he also had to make place for 2 new characters that he seemed to want to focus the story on: Goten and Trunks. If your issue with the power gaps, I agree with you. If I had to "remake" Dragon Ball, the power levels would be much lower and characters would have to win with their skills/experience... but that's not Dragon Ball anymore, so w/e. But I don't think Piccolo lost his relevance to the plot because of his power level in the Buu Saga. It's the other way around for me; him being weaker than the kids while also being necessary for them to master the fusion dance gave him the mantle of master he had while training Gohan. Hell, Mr. Satan was the main character for a good part of the Saga. He is at what, 100 Power Level? Toriyama didn't care much about power levels at that point imo.
The SSJ3 was supposed to be a failure. It was Toriyama being annoyed at all the transformations that his executives forced on him during the Cell Saga. So he made transformations kinda sucky. SSJ3 didn't acclomplish anything, Fusion didn't accomplish anything. And Gohan was being super strong without transforming and Old Kai being like "Transformations are never the answer" was a dead giveaway to what Toriyama wanted to tell us.
At the very least, the previous Z sagas weren't all that weird. Saiyan Saga: Evil versions of Goku were trying to destroy the planet. Freeza/Namek Saga: A war against an evil Space Emperor over some Dragonballs ends with Goku becoming the Chosen One of the Saiyans. Android Saga: Red Ribbon Army tries to get back at Goku by making some androids, some time travel was involved with Vegeta's son becoming John Connor. None of them were as weird as an evil pile of gum being the main baddie.
Emily C19 if you say it like that, all the arcs are weird. Protagonist finds out he is a spacemonkey. Spacemonkeys fighting. Spacemonkeys unite to fight evil spacelizard. Spacemonkeys fight cyborgs. Spacemonkeys fight Bug-Spacemonkey-Spacelizard-Human-Bioengineered-Cyborg.
@@KairuHakubi quite the opposite. they BEGGED him to stay, and he agreed on the condition that he will have full creative freedom. then he left anyway and we got GT...
The Buu Saga’s strength is the humor. It’s Toriyama going back to his roots as a gag manga artist, but it makes the story suffer and the characters are kinda thrown to the side for the sake of jokes. It really shows Toriyama’s strengths and weakness. I love Dragon Ball, but Dragon Ball is marred by great ideas but poor execution. Super Saiyan 3, great idea! But it’s basically just Goku showing off he could attain this power that’s honestly useless because then he realizes he can just hone SSJ and his base forms and they’ll be more affective. Fusion, great idea! But again, we’re left with nothing because there’s always a catch and a fusion has yet to actually beat a big bad. The list goes on and on.
That's because Toriyama was so annoyed by all the transformations during the Cell Saga that his editors forced him to make. It's his way of saying that transformations suck.
@Addyston Tucker Ray Akira Toriyama was also given a lot of free reign in the Buu Saga, so things were a lot more chaotic during that time as there was no leash put on him like during the Frieza and Cell Sagas.
To be honest I find SS3 being actually pretty useless to be a really funny subversion, and I then also enjoy how at the end Goku can't actually use a new form to win and required the cooperation of Vegeta, Fat Buu and Satan to eventually get the spirit bomb out
The first part of the Buu Arc is a really great parody of the rest of the series. The characters are so OP that the god of gods is useless and they beat Babidi's "strongest warriors in the cosmos" without even trying. Super Saiyan is so overdone, seven-year-olds are getting it with no training. Goku literally says at one point that he's not supposed to be here anymore. It's great.
The problem was how pointless the many arcs were. Trunks and Goten spend time learning the fusion technique, train in the hyperbolic time chamber, and then fail in their fight. Gohan trains with the Z sword, released the Elder Kai, trains with him and becomes mystic, then fails and gets absorbed. You could cut out all of the training montages, skip to when they get absorbed and literally nothing would have been lost. You would never think, "did I miss something?" or "When did they learn to do that?" because it changes nothing.
Honestly, I personally never saw a problem with the Buu saga lol But then again, I have a habit of appreciating and tolerating too much It was just cool for me to see the others doing stuff, trying to get rid of this enemy on their own. And really, had Goku been able to just bring the unconscious Gohan or the fusion kids when Earth was getting blown up by Kid Buu-- either Gohan or Gotenks could've easily taken that incarnation of Buu if they were told to not fool around and go all-out knowing their home was gone, people were dead and the stakes were being raised. Still enjoyed how it ended anyhow, but I do dislike how pointless their abilities become in DB Super when they were the strongest last time we saw 'em I dunno, thinking about stuff like that just makes it interesting but I'm getting off-topic lol I guess I just never saw the arcs that were, I suppose, wasted and the prolongation of the forms of Buu as a bad thing-- it was just more neat stuff for me to watch :o
Cell is the worst. Compare Cell to classic Dragon Ball and you wouldn't even think it's the same series. But Buu is a lot closer to what Dragon Ball is supposed to be.
The Buu Saga was like integrating Looney Tunes into Dragon Ball. Also, it seemed like the entirety of DBZ was written to have everyone who wasn't Goku, drop the ball at the most crucial time and let the villain get the upper hand so that Goku saves the day. Mystic Gohan was a total waste of time. This even bled into Super where for some reason, Vegeta wasn't allowed to get the Frieza kill.
But it didn't amount to anything. Sure the moment was beautiful but it didn't even make a dent. At least if 16 detonated he might have fully disintegrated Cell depending on how strong his bomb was
@@sellers737 To me, as a kid at least, that was kind of the point. He gave it everything he had no matter the result, but he realized he wasn't enough alone.
In my opinion that made the moment even more gut wrenching, we see Vegeta commit a selfless act for what very well may be the first time in his life and then after the fact it didn't mean much in the grand scheme of things(even though he did save the lives of Trunks and Goten). It made his death sad and tragic which made it all the more effective imo.
@@sellers737 That's part of why it has so much impact. For the first time in his life, he actually acted selflessly, doing the one and only thing he could do, blowing himself up to stop Buu's onslaught. Then, minutes later, Buu regenerates completely, as though it never happened, making his sacrifice not only heroic, but tragic because it accomplished nothing.
The main problem with the Buu Saga wasn't with the story itself but the real-world interactions of Toriyama and the editorial staff. Toriyama has gone on record multiple times that he hated the critique and constant changes of his editors during the development of DBZ, but that guidance was mostly absent by the Buu Saga. Toriyama finally got his wish to write without any limitations and executive criticism, and that ultimately led to storylines that felt like rough drafts, and would have been by past saga standards. The Buu Saga was proof that Toriyama can't do everything himself and that editing is a necessary evil to bring out the very best in his writing and creativity.
Working within limitations can usually produce even better results than working without constraint. Forces and molds creative in new and interesting ways.
I wouldn't agree with the notion that Toriyama is a wholesale bad writer; he just needed better focus and direction. An editor with keen insight could've straightened out many of the rough edges and assembled what is a large collection of good ideas into a coherent, satisfying narrative.
Toriyama has his moments, but we don't watch his show for ingenious writing or beautiful art, we watch it for pure combat spectacle, and that's where he shines. He knows how to make a good fight, even if the logic of them sometimes falls apart under scrutiny. He is great at 'the rule of cool'.
I have a love hate relationship with the Buu saga. It has some of my favorite moments in DBZ. Goku going super saiyan 3 for the first time as a kid was such an amazing moment. Too bad it didn't have the same effect as past super saiyan transformations. If Goku had absolutely thrashed Buu and then maybe Hercule found Buu in a weakened state, that could have been way more interesting. Vegeta's Final Explosion was also good, too bad it didn't mean anything in the long run, other than his own character growth. Sacrifice wise, it was meaningless. Gohan training and becoming Mystic was also amazing... To bad that didn't go anywhere either. Was really hoping Gohan would go on to take his father's place. Seemed like that is what Dragon Ball Z was building up towards with him. Wasted potential is the name of this arc I would say.
Even when I was the biggest fan of DBZ I could really feel that the Buu saga is when the series began falling off the rails. It's when everything started falling into gimmick and self parody. It's the inevitable fate of any series that just goes on for too long. Just look at the Walking Dead :/
I think that the Buu saga was a return to form for Toriyama. He started Dragon Ball as a gag manga. Editorial pressure turned it into a fighting manga, something he later regretted. I'll admit, having gone from such a serious tone in the Cell saga to a more lax story is pretty off-putting, especially if you watch Z without having watched Dragon Ball. Still, I will admit that the story was poorly paced. It was very ambitious to have as many plot lines going at the same time as Toriyama did. Still, I think the fact that he used the Namekian Dragon Balls, everyone Goku met in his travels, and Mr. Satan to save the day was actually a great way to end the battle.
silversonic1 That’s exactly what I was thinking. Dragon Ball and science fiction work incredibly well together, but I always thought the heart of the show lies in its fantasy: its wild, world-building, Journey to the West-esque roots. Buu was a magical genie-monster that felt like a return to form, the fact that he represented the end of the entire universe neatly upped the intergalactic stakes, and his goofball antics seemed like they would’ve fit perfectly in the original Dragon Ball. The fact that it took the collective efforts of nearly every character in the series to finally defeat Buu with the Spirit Bomb seemed almost a totally necessary way to cap off the manga. Maybe I’m biased. I do like Ball more than I like Z.
I don't think the tone was the issue, I just think it was his failure to commit to a direction and stretching out everything until it just got tiresome.
In my honest opinion, Dragon Ball Z should have just ended after the Cell saga. Why? Because everything that came after it was what I like to call "forced content". In other words, because Dragon Ball Z had became so successful, the creators started forcing content production just to try and keep their success flowing which happens very often in the game and entertainment industry. The only problem with that business tactic is it ALWAYS leads to poor content because production is no longer natural like the content that ultimately generated the success in the first place. The Buu saga was the beginning of Dragon Ball Z's forced content production thus why it lacked the qualities of the previously produced sagas. Uninteresting character backgrounds, lack of good plot buildups, terrible cast manipulation, little to no interesting character introductions, completely emotionless, etc... I know some people will hate what I'm about to say for whatever reason, but I'm only speaking facts here. Almost EVERY main character became completely irrelevant in the Buu saga. Piccolo, Krillin, Tein, Yamcha, etc. Don't get me wrong, I am fully aware of the fact that most of the characters I just stated became useless in battle prior to the start of the saga, but completely irrelevant? No, in every previous saga, they all at least had some moments that changed the course of events and allowed them to shine a bit. Except Yamcha... Piccolo didn't even battle ONCE in the Buu saga and became a joke, Gohan went from something after defeating Cell to completely nothing, Tein and Yamcha's short existence in the saga was completely pointless, Krillin didn't really make much of an impact at all, Vegeta's existence was pointless up until the very end which is unacceptable, Majin Vegeta and Dabura weren't really utilized enough, and Goku didn't even take Buu seriously until the saga was darn over. That brings us to another issue. Majin Buu failed to present himself as a serious, interesting villain until the saga was almost over. He debuted as a complete joke of a character with a rather annoying personality and goofy character design that was hardly fitting, then he became a character that at least HAD more potential to be interesting, but then that was ruin when he went on to battle Gotenks which was joke of a battle. This guy is killing many people including the majority of the main cast and for some weird reason, he's still not coming off as serious... Probably because he's turning people into candy which just seems very unfitting for DBZ?... Everything that made DBZ the success it was, the Buu saga lacked. The only quality it kept was the action which was overpowered by excessive comedy that was annoying and corny. DBZ always had some comedy, but not to the extent where it took away the focus from the action and drama. It was good mixture. Now there's Dragon Ball Super which I personally can't even begin to care about. That's why all good things should come to an end.
Are you kidding? Buu Saga was the conclusion to Dragonball Z. The Cell Saga left behind many questions. We needed to see what was the aftermath of the Cell Saga because it brought alot of curiosity. A television series doesn't just end like that.
The finality of Cell Saga and problems others have listed for the Buu saga makes it hard to sit through to me. I do wish the Otherworld Tournament and Gohans school life were like OVAs tho
I do think Kid Buu was a breath of fresh air after all the adult versions. To find out the most psychotic and dangerous version of all was in fact an angsty preteen was a total mindf.
Imagine if all of Buu's forms were instead each their individual characters as part of the Buu race, invading the mortal realm from their mysterious dimension.
The redemption of Vegeta was my favorite part of the arc. His return to evil made sense to me. His sacrifice is one of the most memorable parts of DBZ ever. The reason he returns and gains a second chance at life also seemed to flow well. It really ends up being a big springboard for Vegeta going forward into the future (namely Super). And Vegito will always be one of the best parts of the arc as well
Excellent analysis! Love the dissection of what is a confused, muddled though admittedly fun (at times) conclusion to DBZ. I've always thought of the Buu saga as one of moments (Vegeta's sacrifice, the Satan/Buu friendship, birth of Super Buu etc...) rather than consistent quality
"Fight you? No, I wanna kill you." And he proceeded to not do that. "I am going to find an ultimate form that nobody's ever seen before." And he proceeded to not do that. Although, we had a somewhat satisfying fight in the Piccolo and Gohan vs U6 namekians
When Vegito failed to stop Buu, I quit DBZ. I was already irritated by the "there's enough molecules left for him to regenerate!" bs after the Gotanks fight (seriously, regeneration is such an abused ability in this series post-Piccolo), miffed that the whole "Mystic Gohan" thing was built up and subverted, but I thought fusion would be the thing that, like Super Saiyan and Gohan's dual heritage boost, would be the "thing" that saved the day. But no. They failed, again. And at that point I didn't even care what they did to save the day because I probably wouldn't believe it in any satifying way.
That talk about subversion in storytelling was really interesting! Thanks for bringing it up, I feel there's a lot I need to think about when writing my scenarios after watching your video!
Eh. To be fair, the Android and Cell story had a lot of these same problems. When you talk about subversion. 'Oh 19 and 20 are the villains. Actually, it's 17 and 18. Actually it's Cell.' You talk about how Buu saga squandered the potential of Dabura and Babidi. Android saga squandered Dr. Gero. We never got to see his desire for vengeance contextualized in the series. 17 and 18 were also squandered. They got one fight a piece and then contributed next to nothing to the rest of the arc other than being plot cconveniences for Cell. And speaking of Cell, like Buu he was interesting and subversive at first. The villain from the shadows, a silent menace. Then he transforms and becomes just another combat addicted bad guy with a high power level. Problem is, lets be honest, Toriyama is a decent storyteller but he's a terrible writer. He comes up with cool ideas and interesting lore but the nuts and bolts of his stories are always messy. He builds things up only to change his mind before the payoff. His tension is artificial. His characters rarely earn their victories, but win because of some transformation, or some off screen training session, or potential unlock scenario. In fact, one thing I sort of like about the Buu saga is that the victory vs Kid Buu feels more earned than most of Toriyama's finales. All the new transformations, training sessions and unlocked potentials amount to nothing. Kid Buu goes down because of a team effort. Idk. I think the biggest weakness in the Buu saga is how Gohan is pushed for so long only to do nothing. It's a major let down.
Actually kid buu would've lost if goku and Vegeta fused again. But their Saiyan ego's got in the way as always and they had to make things twice as hard.
Well with the Androids we do see that they actually were strong. The reason why the Buu saga problems are more talked about is because it could have been avoided entirely. Cell spawned himself
kinda wish SSJ3 got the win at the end instead of the Spirit Bomb as it was the next level of super saiyan during the saga. like how Super Saiyan beat Frieza, Super Saiyan 2 beat Cell...but Super Saiyan 3 did nothing except stall for time...woo...
I think it would have been fine if either Mystic Gohan or Vegito got the kill. Mystic Gohan reminded me of the initial super saiyan transformation where Goku was so stern (and blonde) and it looked like he might stay that way. Except Mystic Gohan actually DID stay that way. He acts adult and ready to step into Goku's shoes, which many have been waiting for since the saiyan saga. There was a long buildup and a price for that "form". It's a little more consequential and different than just a higher SSJ form. Same with Vegito. It looked like Goku and Vegeta were more or less replaced from now on. That's a pretty steep price, but considering DBZ was nearing its end, anything could have happened. And Vegito was worth it. SSJ3 was just there. Goku reached it off screen without even specifically training for Buu. We weren't there to watch it and wonder wheter he'd ever reach a higher form, wheter it would be strong enough, or wheter Goku would die in the process. There's no price or character development. If that had defeated Buu, then Goku could just finish off EVERY new villain by revealing yet another SSJ transformation he reached offscreen.
honestly, when you put it like that, then yeah, I agree with you. while I loved its reveal against Fat Buu, it completely slipped for me that Super Saiyan 3 was something Goku had since the start of the arc
It really is such a shame they couldn't land the Dragon Balls themselves as villains idea quite right in GT, was such a fantastic concept. The idea that the titular Dragon Balls, that everyone is reliant on to clean up all their messes turning against them due to over-use? FANTASTIC IDEA! The titular Dragon Balls themselves as the final villains of the franchise, so fitting!..It's such a shame the execution wasn't so good.
I love this saga a lot, but after rewatching it on Kai, I understood why other people disliked it. This was the point where the general problems of Dragon Ball became pretty evident and it carries them to GT and Super. Fusion and Mr. Satan development were my favorite things of the Buu arc, though.
I never thought of it as weird, mostly slow and boring, with an uncharismatic villain with unclear motivation. Debura, Majin Vegeta, Bobbity, those were all pretty fun, but once fat Buu disappeared the pace halted.
Buu Saga is my least favorite saga for two reasons that are kinda the same reason. 1. It just drags on, there are always the jokes of how things take forever to get done in DBZ but Buu Saga just never ends. Everytime you think its going to... nope. 2. Its all very front loaded. About 75% of the best stuff is before Super Buu. I Like Gotenks and the build up to him and his fight. I like Gohan seeming to take his Father's place once and for all. And I like Vegito. But i more or less HATE Super Buu. I've said it before and Masako brings it up here, he loses pretty much everything interesting about him and becomes a second rate Cell. And Kid Buu comes at the point I'm just bored of the series and want this over. The only Super Buu bit I really like is the Lookout part where he's still kinda like his innocent self but more serious about fighting and they got to buy time for Gotenks to be ready. Once he starts absorbing people he becomes boring imo. So I agree with Masako that it'd probably would have been better to get right to Kid Buu. Keep all the threat and menace without Cell Redux. Cutting out Super Buu but more or less keeping the major events, I think would have lessened the fatigue the saga has that the others don't, and with less transformations you keep Buu a threat and a unique entity. So short of it all is I think the Buu Saga ultimately works when its trying to be about a world without Goku and how the new generation rises to fill the void. Goku has interesting potential to be thier 'King Kai' mentor figure as a way to keep him around and still semi-relevant but that all seems to get thrown away and ultimately I think that is when I stopped caring about the Buu Saga.
The transformations also didn't do much to actually change Buu's face or body in any significant way. Usually only changing the clothes and proportions. His face is always the same, except for fat buu and partially skinny buu. Even Tien had more notable transformations(?) in his Goku fight, with 4 arms and multi-form. And these Buu transformations are right off the back of Cell, whose face dramatically changed between forms, from the weird alien mouth, to the LIPS, to the chiseled jawline. A transformation is good for shaking things up, but they actually need to be unique in some way.
Yo, MasakoX. I have a what if for you, and I wanted to talk to you about it in some way, since I've taken it all the way to the 24th World Martial Arts tournament. Where could that happen?
I just couldn't take Buu's Elmo voice and the fact that after Cell, the villain we get is a fat pink man-child. Everything up until then was looking really promising and I enjoyed almost all of it. Plus I was reallllly looking forward to the Tournament. And then that's when it all goes downhill... Ugh the Buu saga is such a chore for me. *SPOILERS AHEAD* And the fact that... you know... literally everyone dies 😥
@@majingaming538 Yes but the Buu saga made it even clearer. When Dende took the role of Earth Guardian I lost it. Heck I didn't even cry when Vegeta sacrificed himself knowing there are Dragon balls. Piccolo sure did respect Vegeta so I would have thought that he would ressurrect Vegeta. Heck they turned Porunga into an infinite wish. You hear an Android can train to become stronger. The tension even gets less because learning that an infinite energy guy can become stronger it makes the Saiyans seem pointless. Just get an Android to defeat them and not Goku or Vegeta
Funny thing is, the whole "Gohan didn't train so became slightly weaker" is exactly what fuels the buu saga. If Gohan had kept at least his strenght from the Cell Games, if not slightly increased, he would have disposed of Dabura pretty fast, so, no Majin Vegeta, and no Buu.
Yes, Buu Saga is weird and has some flaws, but at least it was not boring. It brought a lot of new impressions from the series, because we had nothing like that before.
There was also a lack of build up to Majin Buu. In the Saiyan Saga there was Raditz, then Nappa and then Vegeta. In the Namek Saga there were all the Freeza Force members and then Freeza. In the Android Saga there were 19 and 20, then 16/17/18 then Cell. There was too much Majin Buu in the Buu arc.
I think The Buu Saga might've actually my favorite as a kid. As I grew up though I started realize how horrendous the writing actually was. As you mentioned, many of the flaws in Dragon Ball today were first really established in the Buu saga. Now, as an adult, it's my least favorite DBZ arc, but I still think it had plenty of great moments and I still cherish it for that. If you don't take it too seriously (which you shouldn't really anyways with Dragon Ball in general) it's quite fun still.
So, I thought I heard that Gohan was supposed to take lead as the next “Goku” during the buu saga, but apparently people did not enjoy that, so they brought Goku and Vegeta back to life and ended it the way they did. I thought I heard that they created buu in a way that was supposed to make him such a bad villain that people would stop liking dbz, that way they can take a break from the weekly deadlines they had. Idk I could be all wrong though
A few things I saw when it came to the Buu Saga: It was supposed bring back the tone to the original Dragon Ball, since Dragon Ball did came out as a comey before Red Ribbon Saga changed things. It was Toriyama's intent to retire Goku as a character, but since Goku was a massive fan-favorite, he couldn't retire him. Buu is intended as a contrast of the Cell Saga, since the Cell Saga is one of the most darkest story arcs in the series.
I remember seeing Dragonball for the first time, or one of them before I knew what show I was watching. I was like 8-10 and I saw a scene that I think is when Babidi is trying to lure out Goten and Trunks by having Majin Buu turn a whole city of people into candy, shove them into his mouth and chew on them and the chewing disturbed me a lot as a kid. So actually The Buu Saga got some of the darkest stuff ever in Dragonball.
I love Vegeta’s outfit in Buu. I remember getting an imported game (Legends) back in the 90’s, I had only seen the Toonami run up to mid Freeza saga then seeing him with the Saiyan gloves and boots but the more earthling suit. Sooo cool! Then put Majin Vegeta Vs Goku; an easily 10 out of 10 fight. Yeeeeeessssss!
I would say it’s something like the war arc in the Naruto anime, in the process of trying to subvert expectations and do more over the top storylines, the writers botch the character arcs and ending(altho war arc isn’t as bad as the buu arc but it’s extremely bloated and could have used a little more streamlining and fixing, but that’s hindsight bias tho). The main problem is like with gohan being shafted in his character arc and the many majin buu transformations, in the Naruto war arc, black zetsu controlling the whole Naruto verse the undercooked otsusutski explanation, and the underdeveloped kaguya as a villain instead of making use of the actual greatly developed villain madara.
The Buu Saga was wild messy as hell, but we got some great things out it: they brought Fusion into the series, giving us Vegito and Gotenks (love him or hate him, he's still kinda neat), we got to see Mr. Satan prove himself to be the hero we deserve, Dabura and Babidi were cool villains, (even if they weren't around for long), and while Gohan's development hit the brakes and hard as the saga went on, I still liked his Ultimate form (even if he didn't get a chance to use it that often). Also, The Great Saiyaman is awesome, and Vegeta's redemption still makes me tear up (even if his sacrifice did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, but it was still incredible).
Here's thought that you could make a video on: How would you have tweaked the Buu saga to improve it? What elements/plot points would you have tweaked to make it a stronger arch?
Goten and Trunks were more of the tagalong kids in the Buu Saga, at least in my opinion. Gohan was the main focus up until they chased Babidi's minions to his spaceship.
Fun fact: "Haverok" in my native language roughly means "Buddys" so MasakoX discusses a lot with his buddys if you take it that way. XD (I'm hungarian btw.)
I like to consider the Buu arc as "The return of the Jedi" of DBZ arcs. Definitely has some of the weakest parts of the entire series but when the high points get here, they are VERY high. While I absolutely wished some parts of it went differently, over all I'm glad I saw it.
I remember when I watched the Buu saga as a kid, I got extremely fed up with it. It dragged on too much and I just wished they would stop letting Buu regenerate. They kept doing the DBZ thing of waiting and shittalking for minutes after every couple attacks. They had multiple parts where they shot holes into Buu. Just repeat that really quick until he's all hole. You had chances. To be fair, I thought Cell and especially Freeza far outstayed their welcome, but Buu was getting ridiculous.
Yeaaaah I recently rewatched a ton of DBZ after Super ended, that's so bad.. and to think I watched it countless times when I was a kid before Toonami dubbed everything past Goku landing on Namek, and finding Japanese bootlegs.
I first started watching the show during the Buu arc on Toonami back in the day, so I definitely have a soft spot for this arc. In fact, it's probably my favorite arc largely because of this.
you can't blame them though. nonstop subversion is all you can _possibly_ do in that situation. you're star wars, everyone's going to crucify you if you give them what they expect OR do something too new and different.
@@KairuHakubi they could have done some subversion, don't get me wrong (that scene where Rey and Kylo team up is STUNNING) , but they went completely overboard with it, to the point where you just became completely uninvested in the plot. Scenes lose all there tension if you know they're gonna pull the rug on you every time.
I dunno, I remained invested. the final twist was a fantastic one. It had some flaws for sure, but I think most of it can be blamed on A) being part 2 of a trilogy and B) being written without any help from the guys doing parts 1 and 3. how do you do that? fantasy writing isnt a game of hot potato..
The Buu saga’s major flaw was lack of direction. They did make it seem like they were building up Gohan, Goten, and Trunks to be the next generation of fighters and hen turned it around in the end. There seemed to be that lack of commitment in fully handing over the reigns to the kids, because Goku and Vegeta were still accessible. That and time. I feel like a few more arcs could have been dedicated to fleshing them out shifting focus away from Goku and Vegeta. Forgive me for saying this, but we could compare this to Boruto in a way. Love it or hate it, they kind of learned a bit from Dragonball’s mistake. The new generation were placed more in the frontlines, with the older, more familiar characters still there. There’s more exposition and development for the newer characters, while we still see the older characters kicking ass.
Let's be real here, the Buu saga wasn't great, but it was still better than any of the Anime's filler arcs... The theme of the Buu arc, like it's titular villain, is endurance. It takes so long to get through and there are so many little bad moments along the way that we tend to forget the good moments, but there are good moments too like when Gohan first confronts Super Buu, Mr. Satan saving the universe and Vegita finally swallowing his pride. These moments are just overshadowed by the many bad ones... I think the reason most people who like it do, is because they come to DBZ for fights and nothing else and there are LOTS of fights in the Buu saga, emotionally flat and poorly written fights, but still flashy fights.
That's pretty much what I come for. I'm not sure when, but at some point I didn't care about the plot and I just wanted the action. That being said, Frieza will always be my favorite. Though, he can stay dead at some point lol.
I remember an interview with Toriyama that he wanted to end it with the Cell Saga but the fans demanded more and he tried to give Gohan a chance but people wanted Goku back so he was forced to bring back Goku to life at this point he was already tired with this and clearly shows he didn't want to continue it after that.
The Buu Saga never get's no love but it's my favorite part of ALL of Dragon Ball. It has bits of what makes the early part of Dragon Ball and latter part (Z) great.
My routine with Masako - first like, then watch. Even tough i not always agree with him! Also: Buu saga was my favourite. Buu was, for me, creepiest, most disturbing and evil foe of all the franchise. Pure, unfiltered NOPE.
Empire Empire I agree, Freeza is a transforming space tyrant that likes to torture you in every sadistic way imaginable. Cell is a man-eating monster who drains you into nothingness until he reaches his complete form and decides to beat on/blow you up instead. Buu throughout is a monster who eats you alive, force-feeds you until you explode, absorbs you in order to become a warped parody of yourself and electrocute you. Despite the silliness of the character, this is one nightmarish experience to go through.
I think the message for Gohan was that the path to strength requires no rest. Keep reaching for your goals even if you think you already got them, train hard and never stop, or you will lose all progress.
I feel it was the only arc/saga that had little to no connection to previous ones in Z - Saiyan+Vegeta sagas: Goku discovers his origins, killed fighting his brother, then fights the latter's comrades - Namek+Frieza sagas: Off to another planet, Goku avenges the Saiyans by defeating the one responsible - Androids+Cell sagas: Gero from Red Ribbon Army (major villains from DB) constructs artificial assassins to kill Goku&friends Whereas Buu saga was like: Goku passes down the mantle - NOPE he has to kill a bubblegum monster!
Yeah Buu is my least favourite. It just felt really badly paced and heavily padded. It just comes down to "villain shows up, then we keep trying stuff until one of them works". There's nothing really clever about it. They try Gotenks, it takes too long and they lose. Super Saiyan 3, takes too long and loses. Ultimate Gohan, takes too long and loses. Vegito, takes too long and loses. In the end it's a Spirit Bomb, but this time a gooder one that definitely works this time for some reason. Plus the rules of Buu just don't make sense, Super Saiyan 3 is really wasted, Ultimate Gohan still makes zero sense, Gohan's "character development" is a rehash of what he goes through with Cell and ultimately doesn't even matter by the time we get to Super. All in all it just felt like Toriyama really needed a stern editor to rein him in a bit and trim the fat of the arc. Honestly you could cut out Gohan's fight entirely and have it go from Gotenks to Vegito with nothing lost. Still Great Saiyaman was, well, great
To me the Majin Buu saga and Toriyama is very much to me like the prequels and George Lucas. Their previous work earned them extreme esteem to the point that no one was no longer willing to tell them no and with this their writing went off the rails. Both have great moments and performances and some really good character development but overall the direction of the story The inconsistencies in characters and overall lack of Direction hurt either from having a positive impression when looking back on it
Toriyama actually had editors. One in particular asked Toriyama to change multiple things in the Android and Cell Saga ( such as changing the main villains from Gero and 19 to 17 and 18 and finally to Cell, as well as changing Cells forms due to the editor's insistance.)
It was wierd because they were trying to make the next generation the protagonists of the story, even killing Vegeta and all.
But after they royally messed up, Goku and Vegeta had to take the mantle once again.
I would have loved to see Goten and Trunks becoming groomed to be the later heroes and Mystic Gohan being in the spotlight for longer but of course... back to square one. Vegeta and Goku could've had some neat adventures in the afterlife
they didn't mess up it was us the fans who didn't want change
"goku and vegeta", you mean goku right? he is the only protagonist of dragon ball, i don't why include vegeta.
slifer875 Vegeta is Goku's best buddy lol.
DBZMacky no their mistake was trying to make Gohan a bookworm. In the cell saga Gohan had a balance between studying and training. In the buu saga he went completely towards his studies even though he was built up as the new hero of the show. They should have written him better and not listened to angry fanboys. Then they brought back Goku after giving him an excellent send-off.
To be fair, the Mr. Satan-Buu episodes are what made me a fan of both characters.
Same...
Yeah personally the only thing to fix about the buu arc is the undercooked bloated final fight. It should have ended with gohan, gotenks, piccolo and krillin(with a spirit bomb and learning kaioken with piccolo defending krillin while gohan and gotenks take on kid buu) teaming up and saying their goodbyes to goku and vegeta on Kai’s planet after buu’s defeat instead of making the death of characters easily reversible(that’s why the cell arc was so iconic and great because it was a great ending of character arcs with proper subverted expectations instead of sacrificing side/future characters completely).
The Buu saga is unfortunately where a lot of characters stopped being relevant.
Piccolo was stronger than Vegeta and Goku at one point on Namek. Again during the Android saga he became stronger than SSj Vegeta and Goku, and he got even stronger than that later after entering the time chamber.
During the Buu saga he was a joke. He never got to a level that could compete with Goku and Vegeta like he did in the previous saga’s. And it just went downhill from there.
Same happened to other characters.
Kinda wish Tien and Piccolo stayed relevant in power.
I hope tfs doesn't do super cause....NO TIEN....well there is A BIT in battle o gods and res of f but after that ...no tien until universe survival arc
Yeah buu saga was the start of “well, lets forget about the all the side characters and just focus on main/most favorite“ - which is god damn annoying
In Storytelling the side characters are a important component for the plot as for the character progression of the main character(s). For example Krillins death (namek) etc. They form and for most fill the world the producer's suppose to create.
For one sentence : "They're VERY IMPORTANT"
And in addition --> the type of usage of side characters are very viable . Like for example bocu no hiro academia - they use their side characters to develop the main without letting the audience feel it forced. You have to remember that the side characters are characters, too. They all supposed to have some characteristics of its own , like own progression and motivations. Thats what makes them feel more natural.
°Mov-E° yeah... imagine if at the beginning of the Buu Saga Gohan was still training with Piccolo and having Gohan as a sparring partner helped increase piccolo’s strength.
Tien mastered the tri-beam and found a way to do it without losing as much health or something of the sort.
Krillin kept up with training as well and got stronger.
But yamcha just kinda played baseball, however there could be an episode where we actually see this (cause seriously, he’d be pretty over powered and have to hold back, it would be an amusing slice of life episode).
So when they decide to go to the tournament, they’re all able to compete close to each other and it’s left a bit ambiguous who would win.
When you say "relevant", you mean "at the same level of power".
Either way, he also had to make place for 2 new characters that he seemed to want to focus the story on: Goten and Trunks.
If your issue with the power gaps, I agree with you. If I had to "remake" Dragon Ball, the power levels would be much lower and characters would have to win with their skills/experience... but that's not Dragon Ball anymore, so w/e.
But I don't think Piccolo lost his relevance to the plot because of his power level in the Buu Saga. It's the other way around for me; him being weaker than the kids while also being necessary for them to master the fusion dance gave him the mantle of master he had while training Gohan.
Hell, Mr. Satan was the main character for a good part of the Saga. He is at what, 100 Power Level?
Toriyama didn't care much about power levels at that point imo.
Super Saiyan 3 not accomplishing anything was a little weird but the Spirit Bomb finally got a win!
The SSJ3 was supposed to be a failure. It was Toriyama being annoyed at all the transformations that his executives forced on him during the Cell Saga. So he made transformations kinda sucky. SSJ3 didn't acclomplish anything, Fusion didn't accomplish anything. And Gohan was being super strong without transforming and Old Kai being like "Transformations are never the answer" was a dead giveaway to what Toriyama wanted to tell us.
Yeah, but he said the same thing during Super and look where we are now. :(
I used to have a theory that the spirit bomb was actually made specifically to defeat Buu.
99sonicrocks I mean yeah it drained all his stamina but if he didn’t have it goku would have gotten dicked on like vegeta did
Would also explain why Ssj3 literally came out of nowhere with no foreshadowing.
I mean...an evil pile of gum was trying to kill everyone. That's pretty weird lmao
Then again, Master Carrot in DB
@Groisu i guess ur right xD Buu can basically be explained in just 2 words (and a pun at that): Childish GUMbino
Emily C19 Attack of the ABC gum!!!😱😱😱😂😂😂😂
At the very least, the previous Z sagas weren't all that weird.
Saiyan Saga: Evil versions of Goku were trying to destroy the planet.
Freeza/Namek Saga: A war against an evil Space Emperor over some Dragonballs ends with Goku becoming the Chosen One of the Saiyans.
Android Saga: Red Ribbon Army tries to get back at Goku by making some androids, some time travel was involved with Vegeta's son becoming John Connor.
None of them were as weird as an evil pile of gum being the main baddie.
Emily C19 if you say it like that, all the arcs are weird. Protagonist finds out he is a spacemonkey. Spacemonkeys fighting. Spacemonkeys unite to fight evil spacelizard. Spacemonkeys fight cyborgs. Spacemonkeys fight Bug-Spacemonkey-Spacelizard-Human-Bioengineered-Cyborg.
Toriyama stopped listening to his editors. Saved you 13 minutes
I thought he wanted to quit, and they kinda forced him to keep going, and that was why
@@KairuHakubi quite the opposite. they BEGGED him to stay, and he agreed on the condition that he will have full creative freedom. then he left anyway and we got GT...
thanks fam
The Buu Saga’s strength is the humor. It’s Toriyama going back to his roots as a gag manga artist, but it makes the story suffer and the characters are kinda thrown to the side for the sake of jokes. It really shows Toriyama’s strengths and weakness. I love Dragon Ball, but Dragon Ball is marred by great ideas but poor execution. Super Saiyan 3, great idea! But it’s basically just Goku showing off he could attain this power that’s honestly useless because then he realizes he can just hone SSJ and his base forms and they’ll be more affective. Fusion, great idea! But again, we’re left with nothing because there’s always a catch and a fusion has yet to actually beat a big bad. The list goes on and on.
That's because Toriyama was so annoyed by all the transformations during the Cell Saga that his editors forced him to make. It's his way of saying that transformations suck.
@Addyston Tucker Ray Akira Toriyama was also given a lot of free reign in the Buu Saga, so things were a lot more chaotic during that time as there was no leash put on him like during the Frieza and Cell Sagas.
To be honest I find SS3 being actually pretty useless to be a really funny subversion, and I then also enjoy how at the end Goku can't actually use a new form to win and required the cooperation of Vegeta, Fat Buu and Satan to eventually get the spirit bomb out
The first part of the Buu Arc is a really great parody of the rest of the series. The characters are so OP that the god of gods is useless and they beat Babidi's "strongest warriors in the cosmos" without even trying. Super Saiyan is so overdone, seven-year-olds are getting it with no training. Goku literally says at one point that he's not supposed to be here anymore. It's great.
I thought SSJ3 was a terrible idea.
The problem was how pointless the many arcs were. Trunks and Goten spend time learning the fusion technique, train in the hyperbolic time chamber, and then fail in their fight. Gohan trains with the Z sword, released the Elder Kai, trains with him and becomes mystic, then fails and gets absorbed. You could cut out all of the training montages, skip to when they get absorbed and literally nothing would have been lost. You would never think, "did I miss something?" or "When did they learn to do that?" because it changes nothing.
Honestly, I personally never saw a problem with the Buu saga lol
But then again, I have a habit of appreciating and tolerating too much
It was just cool for me to see the others doing stuff, trying to get rid of this enemy on their own. And really, had Goku been able to just bring the unconscious Gohan or the fusion kids when Earth was getting blown up by Kid Buu-- either Gohan or Gotenks could've easily taken that incarnation of Buu if they were told to not fool around and go all-out knowing their home was gone, people were dead and the stakes were being raised. Still enjoyed how it ended anyhow, but I do dislike how pointless their abilities become in DB Super when they were the strongest last time we saw 'em
I dunno, thinking about stuff like that just makes it interesting but I'm getting off-topic lol
I guess I just never saw the arcs that were, I suppose, wasted and the prolongation of the forms of Buu as a bad thing-- it was just more neat stuff for me to watch :o
Different Strokes for Different Folks... as there's many people who love them being overconfident as how kids would fair in a fight like that one
Because Toriyama needs an editor to keep him straight lol.
Atleast the Vegeta development was great :)
The buu saga may be the worst, but it's also the most inventive and fun to me. Its got a special place in my heart.
Kyle Magaro me too man
Nah Garlic Jr Saga is worst
@@ari_sae True that, should've said arc I guess.
If that's the case then it's not the worst.
Cell is the worst. Compare Cell to classic Dragon Ball and you wouldn't even think it's the same series. But Buu is a lot closer to what Dragon Ball is supposed to be.
The Buu Saga was like integrating Looney Tunes into Dragon Ball.
Also, it seemed like the entirety of DBZ was written to have everyone who wasn't Goku, drop the ball at the most crucial time and let the villain get the upper hand so that Goku saves the day. Mystic Gohan was a total waste of time. This even bled into Super where for some reason, Vegeta wasn't allowed to get the Frieza kill.
Hell yeah it was integrating Looney tunes into DBZ I love Looney tunes
The Buu arc has my favorite moment in all of dragonball, vegeta's sacrifice. That was beautiful.
But it didn't amount to anything. Sure the moment was beautiful but it didn't even make a dent. At least if 16 detonated he might have fully disintegrated Cell depending on how strong his bomb was
@@sellers737 To me, as a kid at least, that was kind of the point. He gave it everything he had no matter the result, but he realized he wasn't enough alone.
In my opinion that made the moment even more gut wrenching, we see Vegeta commit a selfless act for what very well may be the first time in his life and then after the fact it didn't mean much in the grand scheme of things(even though he did save the lives of Trunks and Goten). It made his death sad and tragic which made it all the more effective imo.
@@Xbman123457X exactly
@@sellers737 That's part of why it has so much impact. For the first time in his life, he actually acted selflessly, doing the one and only thing he could do, blowing himself up to stop Buu's onslaught. Then, minutes later, Buu regenerates completely, as though it never happened, making his sacrifice not only heroic, but tragic because it accomplished nothing.
The main problem with the Buu Saga wasn't with the story itself but the real-world interactions of Toriyama and the editorial staff. Toriyama has gone on record multiple times that he hated the critique and constant changes of his editors during the development of DBZ, but that guidance was mostly absent by the Buu Saga. Toriyama finally got his wish to write without any limitations and executive criticism, and that ultimately led to storylines that felt like rough drafts, and would have been by past saga standards. The Buu Saga was proof that Toriyama can't do everything himself and that editing is a necessary evil to bring out the very best in his writing and creativity.
I really don't back up this editors theory. DBZ was never smart in it's storytelling. Never.
Working within limitations can usually produce even better results than working without constraint. Forces and molds creative in new and interesting ways.
This shows that Toriyama was and is a poorly writer, he's excellent drawer but very bad at storytelling.
I wouldn't agree with the notion that Toriyama is a wholesale bad writer; he just needed better focus and direction. An editor with keen insight could've straightened out many of the rough edges and assembled what is a large collection of good ideas into a coherent, satisfying narrative.
Toriyama has his moments, but we don't watch his show for ingenious writing or beautiful art, we watch it for pure combat spectacle, and that's where he shines. He knows how to make a good fight, even if the logic of them sometimes falls apart under scrutiny. He is great at 'the rule of cool'.
I have a love hate relationship with the Buu saga. It has some of my favorite moments in DBZ. Goku going super saiyan 3 for the first time as a kid was such an amazing moment. Too bad it didn't have the same effect as past super saiyan transformations. If Goku had absolutely thrashed Buu and then maybe Hercule found Buu in a weakened state, that could have been way more interesting. Vegeta's Final Explosion was also good, too bad it didn't mean anything in the long run, other than his own character growth. Sacrifice wise, it was meaningless. Gohan training and becoming Mystic was also amazing... To bad that didn't go anywhere either. Was really hoping Gohan would go on to take his father's place. Seemed like that is what Dragon Ball Z was building up towards with him.
Wasted potential is the name of this arc I would say.
Dude the original dragonball was weird as hell the show basically starts with a child getting shot in the face as you know
And a dog was leader of the whole world😆😆😆😆
@@carybeweary7209 that's at least progressive XD
Even when I was the biggest fan of DBZ I could really feel that the Buu saga is when the series began falling off the rails. It's when everything started falling into gimmick and self parody. It's the inevitable fate of any series that just goes on for too long. Just look at the Walking Dead :/
I think that the Buu saga was a return to form for Toriyama. He started Dragon Ball as a gag manga. Editorial pressure turned it into a fighting manga, something he later regretted. I'll admit, having gone from such a serious tone in the Cell saga to a more lax story is pretty off-putting, especially if you watch Z without having watched Dragon Ball. Still, I will admit that the story was poorly paced. It was very ambitious to have as many plot lines going at the same time as Toriyama did. Still, I think the fact that he used the Namekian Dragon Balls, everyone Goku met in his travels, and Mr. Satan to save the day was actually a great way to end the battle.
silversonic1 That’s exactly what I was thinking. Dragon Ball and science fiction work incredibly well together, but I always thought the heart of the show lies in its fantasy: its wild, world-building, Journey to the West-esque roots. Buu was a magical genie-monster that felt like a return to form, the fact that he represented the end of the entire universe neatly upped the intergalactic stakes, and his goofball antics seemed like they would’ve fit perfectly in the original Dragon Ball. The fact that it took the collective efforts of nearly every character in the series to finally defeat Buu with the Spirit Bomb seemed almost a totally necessary way to cap off the manga.
Maybe I’m biased. I do like Ball more than I like Z.
I don't think the tone was the issue, I just think it was his failure to commit to a direction and stretching out everything until it just got tiresome.
In my honest opinion, Dragon Ball Z should have just ended after the Cell saga. Why? Because everything that came after it was what I like to call "forced content". In other words, because Dragon Ball Z had became so successful, the creators started forcing content production just to try and keep their success flowing which happens very often in the game and entertainment industry. The only problem with that business tactic is it ALWAYS leads to poor content because production is no longer natural like the content that ultimately generated the success in the first place.
The Buu saga was the beginning of Dragon Ball Z's forced content production thus why it lacked the qualities of the previously produced sagas. Uninteresting character backgrounds, lack of good plot buildups, terrible cast manipulation, little to no interesting character introductions, completely emotionless, etc... I know some people will hate what I'm about to say for whatever reason, but I'm only speaking facts here.
Almost EVERY main character became completely irrelevant in the Buu saga. Piccolo, Krillin, Tein, Yamcha, etc. Don't get me wrong, I am fully aware of the fact that most of the characters I just stated became useless in battle prior to the start of the saga, but completely irrelevant? No, in every previous saga, they all at least had some moments that changed the course of events and allowed them to shine a bit. Except Yamcha... Piccolo didn't even battle ONCE in the Buu saga and became a joke, Gohan went from something after defeating Cell to completely nothing, Tein and Yamcha's short existence in the saga was completely pointless, Krillin didn't really make much of an impact at all, Vegeta's existence was pointless up until the very end which is unacceptable, Majin Vegeta and Dabura weren't really utilized enough, and Goku didn't even take Buu seriously until the saga was darn over.
That brings us to another issue. Majin Buu failed to present himself as a serious, interesting villain until the saga was almost over. He debuted as a complete joke of a character with a rather annoying personality and goofy character design that was hardly fitting, then he became a character that at least HAD more potential to be interesting, but then that was ruin when he went on to battle Gotenks which was joke of a battle. This guy is killing many people including the majority of the main cast and for some weird reason, he's still not coming off as serious... Probably because he's turning people into candy which just seems very unfitting for DBZ?... Everything that made DBZ the success it was, the Buu saga lacked. The only quality it kept was the action which was overpowered by excessive comedy that was annoying and corny. DBZ always had some comedy, but not to the extent where it took away the focus from the action and drama. It was good mixture. Now there's Dragon Ball Super which I personally can't even begin to care about. That's why all good things should come to an end.
Are you kidding? Buu Saga was the conclusion to Dragonball Z. The Cell Saga left behind many questions. We needed to see what was the aftermath of the Cell Saga because it brought alot of curiosity. A television series doesn't just end like that.
The finality of Cell Saga and problems others have listed for the Buu saga makes it hard to sit through to me.
I do wish the Otherworld Tournament and Gohans school life were like OVAs tho
I do think Kid Buu was a breath of fresh air after all the adult versions. To find out the most psychotic and dangerous version of all was in fact an angsty preteen was a total mindf.
Imagine if all of Buu's forms were instead each their individual characters as part of the Buu race, invading the mortal realm from their mysterious dimension.
The redemption of Vegeta was my favorite part of the arc. His return to evil made sense to me. His sacrifice is one of the most memorable parts of DBZ ever. The reason he returns and gains a second chance at life also seemed to flow well. It really ends up being a big springboard for Vegeta going forward into the future (namely Super). And Vegito will always be one of the best parts of the arc as well
Excellent analysis! Love the dissection of what is a confused, muddled though admittedly fun (at times) conclusion to DBZ. I've always thought of the Buu saga as one of moments (Vegeta's sacrifice, the Satan/Buu friendship, birth of Super Buu etc...) rather than consistent quality
The Buu saga was absolute crazyness, you can tell Toriyama was already burned of Dragon Ball. I agree there are some great moments on it tho.
"Fight you? No, I wanna kill you." And he proceeded to not do that.
"I am going to find an ultimate form that nobody's ever seen before." And he proceeded to not do that.
Although, we had a somewhat satisfying fight in the Piccolo and Gohan vs U6 namekians
Anthropomorphic blob of bubblegum with magic powers and can destroy a galaxy. Seems perfectly normal to me
The second Gohan got his energy stolen is the second I started hating this saga.
When Vegito failed to stop Buu, I quit DBZ. I was already irritated by the "there's enough molecules left for him to regenerate!" bs after the Gotanks fight (seriously, regeneration is such an abused ability in this series post-Piccolo), miffed that the whole "Mystic Gohan" thing was built up and subverted, but I thought fusion would be the thing that, like Super Saiyan and Gohan's dual heritage boost, would be the "thing" that saved the day.
But no. They failed, again. And at that point I didn't even care what they did to save the day because I probably wouldn't believe it in any satifying way.
That talk about subversion in storytelling was really interesting! Thanks for bringing it up, I feel there's a lot I need to think about when writing my scenarios after watching your video!
The god shaggy arc was weird.
The Ultra Instinct Shaggy arc is even weirder.
www.use.com/OhZeE
Eh. To be fair, the Android and Cell story had a lot of these same problems. When you talk about subversion. 'Oh 19 and 20 are the villains. Actually, it's 17 and 18. Actually it's Cell.'
You talk about how Buu saga squandered the potential of Dabura and Babidi. Android saga squandered Dr. Gero. We never got to see his desire for vengeance contextualized in the series. 17 and 18 were also squandered. They got one fight a piece and then contributed next to nothing to the rest of the arc other than being plot cconveniences for Cell.
And speaking of Cell, like Buu he was interesting and subversive at first. The villain from the shadows, a silent menace. Then he transforms and becomes just another combat addicted bad guy with a high power level.
Problem is, lets be honest, Toriyama is a decent storyteller but he's a terrible writer. He comes up with cool ideas and interesting lore but the nuts and bolts of his stories are always messy. He builds things up only to change his mind before the payoff. His tension is artificial. His characters rarely earn their victories, but win because of some transformation, or some off screen training session, or potential unlock scenario.
In fact, one thing I sort of like about the Buu saga is that the victory vs Kid Buu feels more earned than most of Toriyama's finales. All the new transformations, training sessions and unlocked potentials amount to nothing. Kid Buu goes down because of a team effort.
Idk. I think the biggest weakness in the Buu saga is how Gohan is pushed for so long only to do nothing. It's a major let down.
Actually kid buu would've lost if goku and Vegeta fused again. But their Saiyan ego's got in the way as always and they had to make things twice as hard.
@@NCMonefaith they thought he powered down as well after super Boo was taken away
You clearly don't know what earning is.
Something not being useful to defeating the villain isn't bad.
Actually I did not feel like Kid buu is well deserved or well written
Well with the Androids we do see that they actually were strong. The reason why the Buu saga problems are more talked about is because it could have been avoided entirely. Cell spawned himself
From 8:40 to 9:00 is the perfect description of Star Wars: The Last Jedi
I love the buu saga, it’s my favourite saga
Me too
Mine too.
Kid Buu in Budakai 3 cemented this season as my favorite
It's mine as well.
Same lol
kinda wish SSJ3 got the win at the end instead of the Spirit Bomb as it was the next level of super saiyan during the saga. like how Super Saiyan beat Frieza, Super Saiyan 2 beat Cell...but Super Saiyan 3 did nothing except stall for time...woo...
i actually like that, it would have been boring and repetitive if every new number gets the kill.
I think it would have been fine if either Mystic Gohan or Vegito got the kill. Mystic Gohan reminded me of the initial super saiyan transformation where Goku was so stern (and blonde) and it looked like he might stay that way. Except Mystic Gohan actually DID stay that way. He acts adult and ready to step into Goku's shoes, which many have been waiting for since the saiyan saga. There was a long buildup and a price for that "form". It's a little more consequential and different than just a higher SSJ form.
Same with Vegito. It looked like Goku and Vegeta were more or less replaced from now on. That's a pretty steep price, but considering DBZ was nearing its end, anything could have happened. And Vegito was worth it.
SSJ3 was just there. Goku reached it off screen without even specifically training for Buu. We weren't there to watch it and wonder wheter he'd ever reach a higher form, wheter it would be strong enough, or wheter Goku would die in the process. There's no price or character development. If that had defeated Buu, then Goku could just finish off EVERY new villain by revealing yet another SSJ transformation he reached offscreen.
honestly, when you put it like that, then yeah, I agree with you. while I loved its reveal against Fat Buu, it completely slipped for me that Super Saiyan 3 was something Goku had since the start of the arc
@@Sercil00 basically Resurrection of F plot
It really is such a shame they couldn't land the Dragon Balls themselves as villains idea quite right in GT, was such a fantastic concept. The idea that the titular Dragon Balls, that everyone is reliant on to clean up all their messes turning against them due to over-use? FANTASTIC IDEA! The titular Dragon Balls themselves as the final villains of the franchise, so fitting!..It's such a shame the execution wasn't so good.
I love this saga a lot, but after rewatching it on Kai, I understood why other people disliked it. This was the point where the general problems of Dragon Ball became pretty evident and it carries them to GT and Super. Fusion and Mr. Satan development were my favorite things of the Buu arc, though.
I never thought of it as weird, mostly slow and boring, with an uncharismatic villain with unclear motivation. Debura, Majin Vegeta, Bobbity, those were all pretty fun, but once fat Buu disappeared the pace halted.
I really wish gotenks was actually useful. All that buildup for nothing.
you were just spoiled... he was relevant lol
Because magic will always be weird and guys made of gum are hilarious and crazy.
Buu Saga is my least favorite saga for two reasons that are kinda the same reason.
1. It just drags on, there are always the jokes of how things take forever to get done in DBZ but Buu Saga just never ends. Everytime you think its going to... nope.
2. Its all very front loaded. About 75% of the best stuff is before Super Buu. I Like Gotenks and the build up to him and his fight. I like Gohan seeming to take his Father's place once and for all. And I like Vegito. But i more or less HATE Super Buu. I've said it before and Masako brings it up here, he loses pretty much everything interesting about him and becomes a second rate Cell. And Kid Buu comes at the point I'm just bored of the series and want this over.
The only Super Buu bit I really like is the Lookout part where he's still kinda like his innocent self but more serious about fighting and they got to buy time for Gotenks to be ready. Once he starts absorbing people he becomes boring imo. So I agree with Masako that it'd probably would have been better to get right to Kid Buu. Keep all the threat and menace without Cell Redux.
Cutting out Super Buu but more or less keeping the major events, I think would have lessened the fatigue the saga has that the others don't, and with less transformations you keep Buu a threat and a unique entity.
So short of it all is I think the Buu Saga ultimately works when its trying to be about a world without Goku and how the new generation rises to fill the void. Goku has interesting potential to be thier 'King Kai' mentor figure as a way to keep him around and still semi-relevant but that all seems to get thrown away and ultimately I think that is when I stopped caring about the Buu Saga.
The transformations also didn't do much to actually change Buu's face or body in any significant way. Usually only changing the clothes and proportions. His face is always the same, except for fat buu and partially skinny buu.
Even Tien had more notable transformations(?) in his Goku fight, with 4 arms and multi-form. And these Buu transformations are right off the back of Cell, whose face dramatically changed between forms, from the weird alien mouth, to the LIPS, to the chiseled jawline.
A transformation is good for shaking things up, but they actually need to be unique in some way.
Yo, MasakoX. I have a what if for you, and I wanted to talk to you about it in some way, since I've taken it all the way to the 24th World Martial Arts tournament. Where could that happen?
Schneeflocke Monsoon dm him or havoroc (I messed that name up so bad....) on discord
My least favorite saga, but it holds my favorite fight in DB history: Vegito vs Buu
One sided fight but I prefer one sided fights over equals
I just couldn't take Buu's Elmo voice and the fact that after Cell, the villain we get is a fat pink man-child. Everything up until then was looking really promising and I enjoyed almost all of it. Plus I was reallllly looking forward to the Tournament. And then that's when it all goes downhill... Ugh the Buu saga is such a chore for me. *SPOILERS AHEAD*
And the fact that... you know...
literally everyone dies 😥
Yeah, the fact that characters start dropping like flies when Super Buu hits the scene is one of the biggest negatives of the Majin Buu Saga.
death is meaningless in the buu saga.
slifer875 death is meaningless in every saga
Maximus4587 that was the coolest part of the Buu saga
@@majingaming538 Yes but the Buu saga made it even clearer. When Dende took the role of Earth Guardian I lost it. Heck I didn't even cry when Vegeta sacrificed himself knowing there are Dragon balls. Piccolo sure did respect Vegeta so I would have thought that he would ressurrect Vegeta. Heck they turned Porunga into an infinite wish. You hear an Android can train to become stronger. The tension even gets less because learning that an infinite energy guy can become stronger it makes the Saiyans seem pointless. Just get an Android to defeat them and not Goku or Vegeta
Funny thing is, the whole "Gohan didn't train so became slightly weaker" is exactly what fuels the buu saga. If Gohan had kept at least his strenght from the Cell Games, if not slightly increased, he would have disposed of Dabura pretty fast, so, no Majin Vegeta, and no Buu.
Yes, Buu Saga is weird and has some flaws, but at least it was not boring. It brought a lot of new impressions from the series, because we had nothing like that before.
There was also a lack of build up to Majin Buu. In the Saiyan Saga there was Raditz, then Nappa and then Vegeta. In the Namek Saga there were all the Freeza Force members and then Freeza. In the Android Saga there were 19 and 20, then 16/17/18 then Cell. There was too much Majin Buu in the Buu arc.
"I feel like we've been here before. Have we been here before?" - Abridged Lord Freeza
I think The Buu Saga might've actually my favorite as a kid. As I grew up though I started realize how horrendous the writing actually was. As you mentioned, many of the flaws in Dragon Ball today were first really established in the Buu saga. Now, as an adult, it's my least favorite DBZ arc, but I still think it had plenty of great moments and I still cherish it for that. If you don't take it too seriously (which you shouldn't really anyways with Dragon Ball in general) it's quite fun still.
So, I thought I heard that Gohan was supposed to take lead as the next “Goku” during the buu saga, but apparently people did not enjoy that, so they brought Goku and Vegeta back to life and ended it the way they did.
I thought I heard that they created buu in a way that was supposed to make him such a bad villain that people would stop liking dbz, that way they can take a break from the weekly deadlines they had. Idk I could be all wrong though
A few things I saw when it came to the Buu Saga:
It was supposed bring back the tone to the original Dragon Ball, since Dragon Ball did came out as a comey before Red Ribbon Saga changed things.
It was Toriyama's intent to retire Goku as a character, but since Goku was a massive fan-favorite, he couldn't retire him.
Buu is intended as a contrast of the Cell Saga, since the Cell Saga is one of the most darkest story arcs in the series.
I was one of those dumb kids that never saw any of the cons you’ve talked about here.
I remember seeing Dragonball for the first time, or one of them before I knew what show I was watching. I was like 8-10 and I saw a scene that I think is when Babidi is trying to lure out Goten and Trunks by having Majin Buu turn a whole city of people into candy, shove them into his mouth and chew on them and the chewing disturbed me a lot as a kid. So actually The Buu Saga got some of the darkest stuff ever in Dragonball.
Two words
Gotenks
Vegeto
Pretty sure that is only one word.
symptom not cause.
Daryl Green Gotenks is amazing
Kit Kat I like him
In the games
The Buu-saga is the only one I never saw completely. Some bits and pieces, but not the end or even some inbetween stuff.
I love Vegeta’s outfit in Buu. I remember getting an imported game (Legends) back in the 90’s, I had only seen the Toonami run up to mid Freeza saga then seeing him with the Saiyan gloves and boots but the more earthling suit. Sooo cool!
Then put Majin Vegeta Vs Goku; an easily 10 out of 10 fight. Yeeeeeessssss!
I would say it’s something like the war arc in the Naruto anime, in the process of trying to subvert expectations and do more over the top storylines, the writers botch the character arcs and ending(altho war arc isn’t as bad as the buu arc but it’s extremely bloated and could have used a little more streamlining and fixing, but that’s hindsight bias tho).
The main problem is like with gohan being shafted in his character arc and the many majin buu transformations, in the Naruto war arc, black zetsu controlling the whole Naruto verse the undercooked otsusutski explanation, and the underdeveloped kaguya as a villain instead of making use of the actual greatly developed villain madara.
The Buu Saga was wild messy as hell, but we got some great things out it: they brought Fusion into the series, giving us Vegito and Gotenks (love him or hate him, he's still kinda neat), we got to see Mr. Satan prove himself to be the hero we deserve, Dabura and Babidi were cool villains, (even if they weren't around for long), and while Gohan's development hit the brakes and hard as the saga went on, I still liked his Ultimate form (even if he didn't get a chance to use it that often). Also, The Great Saiyaman is awesome, and Vegeta's redemption still makes me tear up (even if his sacrifice did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, but it was still incredible).
Yeah there's a reason why i didn't remember much of the Buu saga when it was the last one i saw.
The buu arc was the beginning of the downward spiral known as gohan. Also a lot of problems that super has came from the buu arc.
I think the Bruce Falconer music score for the original Funimation english dub had helped to make the Buu saga more enjoyable than it truly was.
Say what you want, the Buu saga is my favorite.
Here's thought that you could make a video on: How would you have tweaked the Buu saga to improve it? What elements/plot points would you have tweaked to make it a stronger arch?
I’m early let me make a joke
*Stop doing this if you are early*
Yes
There's some irony in this comment which I wholly appreciate.
Wanna hear something really funny?
Yamcha.
7:43 It's been decades...AND I AM STILL SALTY ABOUT THIS ENTIRE THING!!!!!! AARRARGGGGE!!!!
They tried so hard making Goten, Trucks and Gohan to be the next big hero of the series but ended up going for Goku again. That was weird for me.
Goten and Trunks were more of the tagalong kids in the Buu Saga, at least in my opinion. Gohan was the main focus up until they chased Babidi's minions to his spaceship.
I swear, that subvertion rant basically encapsulated every hour long The Last Jedi rant videos into a 2 minute explanation.
Fun fact: "Haverok" in my native language roughly means "Buddys" so MasakoX discusses a lot with his buddys if you take it that way. XD
(I'm hungarian btw.)
I like to consider the Buu arc as "The return of the Jedi" of DBZ arcs. Definitely has some of the weakest parts of the entire series but when the high points get here, they are VERY high. While I absolutely wished some parts of it went differently, over all I'm glad I saw it.
Good morning everyone.
Good morning to you
Whats good about it?!?!
SIKE!
GOODMORNING!
I remember when I watched the Buu saga as a kid, I got extremely fed up with it. It dragged on too much and I just wished they would stop letting Buu regenerate. They kept doing the DBZ thing of waiting and shittalking for minutes after every couple attacks.
They had multiple parts where they shot holes into Buu. Just repeat that really quick until he's all hole. You had chances.
To be fair, I thought Cell and especially Freeza far outstayed their welcome, but Buu was getting ridiculous.
Fake Namek was by far my least favorite DBZ arc/mini arc. The Para Para brothers are my least favorite thing in Dragon Ball as a whole.
Same- that part and Garlic Jr. were probably the worst for me.
Yeaaaah I recently rewatched a ton of DBZ after Super ended, that's so bad.. and to think I watched it countless times when I was a kid before Toonami dubbed everything past Goku landing on Namek, and finding Japanese bootlegs.
None canon.
I first started watching the show during the Buu arc on Toonami back in the day, so I definitely have a soft spot for this arc. In fact, it's probably my favorite arc largely because of this.
8:40 - 9:00 And THAT is why I have a problem with The Last Jedi.
you can't blame them though. nonstop subversion is all you can _possibly_ do in that situation. you're star wars, everyone's going to crucify you if you give them what they expect OR do something too new and different.
@@KairuHakubi they could have done some subversion, don't get me wrong (that scene where Rey and Kylo team up is STUNNING) , but they went completely overboard with it, to the point where you just became completely uninvested in the plot. Scenes lose all there tension if you know they're gonna pull the rug on you every time.
I dunno, I remained invested. the final twist was a fantastic one.
It had some flaws for sure, but I think most of it can be blamed on A) being part 2 of a trilogy and B) being written without any help from the guys doing parts 1 and 3. how do you do that? fantasy writing isnt a game of hot potato..
@@KairuHakubi definitely agree with you there.
Hey Masako, how're you and the tfs staff gonna handle the Buu saga?
The Buu saga’s major flaw was lack of direction. They did make it seem like they were building up Gohan, Goten, and Trunks to be the next generation of fighters and hen turned it around in the end. There seemed to be that lack of commitment in fully handing over the reigns to the kids, because Goku and Vegeta were still accessible. That and time. I feel like a few more arcs could have been dedicated to fleshing them out shifting focus away from Goku and Vegeta. Forgive me for saying this, but we could compare this to Boruto in a way. Love it or hate it, they kind of learned a bit from Dragonball’s mistake. The new generation were placed more in the frontlines, with the older, more familiar characters still there. There’s more exposition and development for the newer characters, while we still see the older characters kicking ass.
Boruto sucks, aliens in ninja world
When Goku meet Goten for the first time gave me goose pimples. Dbs doesn’t have a lot of those moments.
Let's be real here, the Buu saga wasn't great, but it was still better than any of the Anime's filler arcs... The theme of the Buu arc, like it's titular villain, is endurance. It takes so long to get through and there are so many little bad moments along the way that we tend to forget the good moments, but there are good moments too like when Gohan first confronts Super Buu, Mr. Satan saving the universe and Vegita finally swallowing his pride. These moments are just overshadowed by the many bad ones... I think the reason most people who like it do, is because they come to DBZ for fights and nothing else and there are LOTS of fights in the Buu saga, emotionally flat and poorly written fights, but still flashy fights.
That's pretty much what I come for. I'm not sure when, but at some point I didn't care about the plot and I just wanted the action. That being said, Frieza will always be my favorite. Though, he can stay dead at some point lol.
I remember an interview with Toriyama that he wanted to end it with the Cell Saga but the fans demanded more and he tried to give Gohan a chance but people wanted Goku back so he was forced to bring back Goku to life at this point he was already tired with this and clearly shows he didn't want to continue it after that.
That's false
Yeah your lying
* sigh * I miss tsundere Videl.
That picture of teen gohan and the high school kids... how many looked at Mr. Long Blond and Trucker Hat and just thought he could be related to 13?
Because toriyama.
9:20-9:41 basically The Last Jedi.
*Majin Buu ARC was my favorite! Hands down*
you mean thumbs down? jk
They weren't dedicated to making Gohan the hero of the last arc. Bad writing is what happened.
The Buu Saga never get's no love but it's my favorite part of ALL of Dragon Ball. It has bits of what makes the early part of Dragon Ball and latter part (Z) great.
You guys should subvert convention and have Fat Buu voiced by a deep voiced guy who is very well spoken in DBZA.
What’s wrong with weird
I think these "discussion" videos are better episodic than serial, but am willing to indulge a two-parter here and there.
My routine with Masako - first like, then watch. Even tough i not always agree with him! Also: Buu saga was my favourite. Buu was, for me, creepiest, most disturbing and evil foe of all the franchise. Pure, unfiltered NOPE.
Empire Empire I agree, Freeza is a transforming space tyrant that likes to torture you in every sadistic way imaginable. Cell is a man-eating monster who drains you into nothingness until he reaches his complete form and decides to beat on/blow you up instead. Buu throughout is a monster who eats you alive, force-feeds you until you explode, absorbs you in order to become a warped parody of yourself and electrocute you. Despite the silliness of the character, this is one nightmarish experience to go through.
I think the message for Gohan was that the path to strength requires no rest. Keep reaching for your goals even if you think you already got them, train hard and never stop, or you will lose all progress.
What if Majin Buu absorbs cell?
Already happened.
Budokai 2.
But what if Cell absorbed Buu?
Other people: Ugh, another transformation?
Me: Another transformation?! Yay!
What if gotten was born first (they said gotten had more potential than gohan)
What if Goku and Chi-Chi's second child was a girl?
I always wondered if the whole Buu arc was Toriyama parodying his own work.
Ok so you have what if x turned good.
What about what if x turned evil?
Immortal Anonymous Like what if Goku didn't meet Grandpa Gohan and tried to destroy humanity like he was supposed to?
@@commonviewer2488 turles
I feel it was the only arc/saga that had little to no connection to previous ones in Z
- Saiyan+Vegeta sagas: Goku discovers his origins, killed fighting his brother, then fights the latter's comrades
- Namek+Frieza sagas: Off to another planet, Goku avenges the Saiyans by defeating the one responsible
- Androids+Cell sagas: Gero from Red Ribbon Army (major villains from DB) constructs artificial assassins to kill Goku&friends
Whereas Buu saga was like: Goku passes down the mantle - NOPE he has to kill a bubblegum monster!
Yeah Buu is my least favourite. It just felt really badly paced and heavily padded. It just comes down to "villain shows up, then we keep trying stuff until one of them works". There's nothing really clever about it. They try Gotenks, it takes too long and they lose. Super Saiyan 3, takes too long and loses. Ultimate Gohan, takes too long and loses. Vegito, takes too long and loses. In the end it's a Spirit Bomb, but this time a gooder one that definitely works this time for some reason.
Plus the rules of Buu just don't make sense, Super Saiyan 3 is really wasted, Ultimate Gohan still makes zero sense, Gohan's "character development" is a rehash of what he goes through with Cell and ultimately doesn't even matter by the time we get to Super. All in all it just felt like Toriyama really needed a stern editor to rein him in a bit and trim the fat of the arc. Honestly you could cut out Gohan's fight entirely and have it go from Gotenks to Vegito with nothing lost.
Still Great Saiyaman was, well, great
Vincent Smith oh bet
-Added to list of niggas to shoot on site
Vegito did not lose. He let buu absorb him because he can still sense gohan goten trucks piccolo and buu still alive inside buu.
Beginning and end of Buu Saga was great, the middle was the most painful slog in the whole series.
To me the Majin Buu saga and Toriyama is very much to me like the prequels and George Lucas. Their previous work earned them extreme esteem to the point that no one was no longer willing to tell them no and with this their writing went off the rails. Both have great moments and performances and some really good character development but overall the direction of the story The inconsistencies in characters and overall lack of Direction hurt either from having a positive impression when looking back on it
Someone can't exactly be told no if they don't have an editor, which he didn't...so that's not nearly the same.
Toriyama actually had editors. One in particular asked Toriyama to change multiple things in the Android and Cell Saga ( such as changing the main villains from Gero and 19 to 17 and 18 and finally to Cell, as well as changing Cells forms due to the editor's insistance.)
That guy wasn't his editor...it was just a friend.
You know what else is weird..... we don’t have a what if Raditz turned good the GT saga.