No, they never do. Cartridges differences are for humans to understand and appreciate, not deer. A 22 rimfire to the heart is just as deadly as a 300 Win Mag to the heart. But the Win Mag bullet is easier to deliver to that heart from 300 yards out.
I'm 69 now and bought a .243 Win just before I turned 17 and I too have a soft spot for the ,243 Win. I have also killed several truck loads of game with the .243!
The 243 win can drop down to a 58 grain for coyotes, through in a 100 grain SP for whitetails and you are good. 243 a bit more suited to varmint/whitetail. I have been shooting the same bullet/load for both for many years. Try reloading the 85 grain Sierra Gameking HPBT. Lights out with a good shot on both every time. Yes, hammers whitetail.
I'm not disagreeing, but when I went hunting in RSA for antelope sized game they would not let me use a 243. Reason, too light and velocity too fast for the ranges that the game might be engaged in bush and we might meet something else which would require a bigger round. Used a 30-06. Everything was DRT, but what would you expect at 150yds with a 180gr.
@@csjrogerson2377 What does DRT mean.? ~I saw Jim Shockey hunt with 2x muzzle loader rifles in Africa on TV. A fellow next to him carried his second muzzle loader rifle. Jim took one shot then the fellow handed him the other rifle for second shot, Jim solved the problem of getting off a quick second shot by using 2 rifles.
@@twlongtine Thank you, I will stick with brass metallic cartridges, because muzzle loaders are way too slow with a badly inefficient second shot. Even a single-shot brass cartridge rifle like a 35 Whelen, 338 Win Mag, or 45-70 >>"is" far better and vastly more superior over
I often listen to your channel while my daughter is sleeping/falling asleep. I appreciate your approach on your videos. I know I can learn about cartridges and or firearms without chaos. Just the information looking for! Thanks for another video, I enjoy learning.
In my experience currently where I live, the exact opposite is true. 243 ammo is nowhere or very limited selection. 6.5 creedmoor is everywhere and in many many loadings.
I remember when I first moved to texas from Nebraska. To say I was in shock when I saw the turkey damn near dwarfed the deer is an understatement. The biggest texas deer I ever took was the same size as a Nebraska fawn 😂
The 6.5 is the deer caliber here for sure!!! drops them in their tracks. My first deer with the 6.5 and i tell you i have a new favorite for Deer. They just drop or at least this one did not even one step. Very impressed with this gun i used the 140 grain Hornady . Not only does it drop them in their tracks it is a pleasure to shoot. Glad i picked up this caliber 🙂
Parker Hale rifles were and still are popular here in Canada. Most I have used have been sporterized Lee Enfield’s in 303 British. My first rifle was such a gun. Seemed to take game just fine!
shot my first deer with a .243 at nine years old in the 1990’s as many kids used to do. I am sure that the caliber selection for youngsters and first deer has broadened and expanded over the years with the popularity of .223, new calibers developed, et cetera. But for a time period of maybe forty or fifty years there was an actual tradition amongst many American hunters of “getting your first deer with the .243”
@@daimyo1959 try a gun shop with a large number of used rifles 243 in rem model 700 is just a good lightweight solid rifle and not too light to allow more recoil control with smaller kiddos say 6 and up
@@RamboniiWasn't there an issue with the Remington 700 firing unintentionally? Grease/grime buildup on the sear causing it to go off unintentionally or something?
Ron, the 243 is all they need. I shoot 55 grain Nosler BT powered by VARGET, leaving the muzzle @ 3950 fps. I seldom if ever get an exit hole, but if it does...... it's UGLY. For deer/antelope, the 85 or 90gr Nosler Partition. But lately the Barnes 85gr TTSX are kickin butt and takin names.
Most decent range finders these days have an angle compensation mode that will give you the horizontal distance. Calculate your bullet drop based on horizontal distance and calculate wind drift on actual linear distance and you're done.
DOn't forget the 6.5x55 Swede. The surplus rifles have a fast 1 in 8,6 twist and can stabilize a pretty long bullet. SAAMI loads are reduced pressure rounds because of the number of surplus rifles. Handloaded for modern rifle (lots of them in Europe) The Swede gives up nothing to the Creedmore. It is still widely used in Scandinavia for taking moose and large antelope in Africa
This is true for a lot of classic cartridges. Especially for hunting purposes. While the technical advancements in recent years are neat, they aren’t really necessary. There’s not many problems and man can’t fix with $700 and a .30-06. Or .270, .25-06, .243, 7mm-08, .308 or 6.5 Swede.
I killed my first buck with a .243. I just killed my second about 25 years later with a .30-30. I'll kill my next one with a 6.5 Creedmoor. Love your content!
The uphill downhill things was a great explanation. Especially about overestimating. Remember as a kid going up to top of John Hancock building and looking straight down ( or so I thought) to see a chalk outline of a body on the sidewalk (someone's idea of a joke) Got outside to find it like almost a block away. Tree stands would be some of your steepest angles depending on how high up and how close game comes to it.
I have best of both worlds 6.5 x 55 which was always my deer rifle and a great one, but a couple of years ago a very high quality 243 feel into my hands I suppressed it and put some very good glass on it I'm older and richer than I used to be so why not have something very nice to hunt with I love that it has almost zero blast and minimal recoil but I can't part with the 6.5 after all its still good so I have gifted it to my son who lives a long way away so I can fly down to his place and not take a rifle :)
If you mainly hunt deer and just hunt coyotes now and then, I recommend the 6.5 Creedmoor. Specially if the deer you hunt have large bodies. The .243 is decent/good on deer, but if you hunt in an area with big bodied bucks, you will need to be much more careful with shot angles than you need with the 6.5 Creedmoor. With the 6.5 Creedmoor you can either use 85-100 grain varmint bullets on coyotes if you don't care about the pelt, and if you care about the pelt, you can either use FMJ bullets or you can use expanding bullets that don't expand much on light game like coyotes and the Barnes TSX bullets are good for that. If you want to keep it simple, you can load the 6.5 Creedmoor with the 120 or 130 grain Barnes TSX bullets and use the same load for both deer and coyotes with great effect. Personally I prefer the TTSX or the LRX bullets on deer, but they are usually not gentle with the pelts. Specially not the LRX. But the 127 grain LRX bullet is an amazing long range hunting bullet on both deer and coyotes. If you mainly hunt coyotes and/or the deer you hunt are not that big, then the .243 is a great choice as well. Even the 223 can work well on deer if you make sure to use high quality bullets, like Barnes bullets, know how to shoot and where to place your shots. I have shot many deer with the 223. And it is a fantastic cartridge for varmints.
I believe in sticking with old school calibers. I’d go with a 243 and some 80gr tsx for deer & some 80 grain ballistic tips or reg soft points for varmints, but that’s just me
@@ericdanos373 the only deer I’ve ever killed with a different round was a button buck with a 30-30 and it’s the only one I’ve had not just hit the ground with a good shot
My great grandfather's 303 savage with 190gr soft point dropped my 49 1/2 inch moose last year in Northern BC.. it's been putting game in the freezer since 1909, when he bought it new.
It's the distance in a strait line horizontal, not at any angle, upwards or downwards. The newest rangefinders have the adjustable readings and have the line of site, and the angle adjusting readings. This will do the trick for the shooting up in the hi country.
I’ve shot squirrels from trees at steeper than 45-degrees, Ron’s reckoning is precisely correct. It works because the scope reticule is orthogonal to the sight axis.
My first deer rifle was a 243 when I was 10 years old yes I have other rifles as well but my 243 Winchester is always my go to as Old faithful. Especially with newer hunters or younger hunters that will recall really allows them to make precise shots that hit deer in the vitals every time!
Awesome, my trigonometry class is paying off. Unfortunately, i was really slow at the equation. Thank God the range finder does it in seconds vs. my minutes. 6.5 vs. .243 relevant comparison. Thank you.
We moved to Peoria Illinois back in the mid 60s. It was right about the time that the Shooting Times was getting started. Somehow, my dad got to knwo some of those folks. You kind of remind me of being 10-11 years old and hanging out with him and all these really knwoledgable guys and just talking about species and hunts and elk camps and rifles and cartridges. It really locked me into a lifetime of enjoyment with all the shooting sports from hunting to bullseye pistols to IPSC. Such fun!
I love me some precision peep sights. I"m 61 and I still have pretty good eyes.. Sometimes up close it's a little blurry, but hot bad.. I used to have the best eyes when younger and won more than a few local rifle competitions.. Varmint hunted with a rifle with open sights for a long time.. Mini 14. I did use a scope later because I was shooting a really long way with some of the ground hog hunts and needed it to see them at all.. Great show.. Love this show.. Thank you Ron!
I mentioned this Ron, on your "TikTok" or "Instragram" short on this subject. The .243 and 6.5 mm Creedmoor should be compared to 6 mm Remington. Its performance is very comparable and superior in some criteria but the 6mm Remington is often overlooked.
But the same price as the .243 if you reload. Maybe a few more grains of powder depending on bullet weight. I have both, love both, but would choose 6mm Rem if I had to choose one.
@@ryanj9364 if I was a dedicated 6mm shooter, I would choose the 6mm Remington over the 243 win. I’m a handloader though. If I wasn’t a handloader I’d prolly pick the 243 due to more factory offerings. Performance wise the 6mm rem is better than the 243 in my opinion.
The .308 is a 600 yard deer round with 150 grain spitzers and will reliably take down elephant, rhino and cape buffalo with 220 grain solids. Easy to load the .308 down for reduced recoil and shorter range use.
You're correct about there not be a stopping round, I've been knocked over by a cape buff that took 3 X 375 mag and 3 X 458 rounds. It was dead on it's feet but still had enough momentum to knock me over! Big rifles will turn most big game but not stop them.
Six of one - half dozen of the other. Both will do the job fine. The 6.5 will retain velocity/energy farther and have less wind deflection if you hunt at longer ranges. The .243 will shoot flatter initially. Hunt with the one you have, or if you're in the market, buy the one you like better.
6.5 Creedmoor or .243 Win would be perfect for this role. Carry bullets appropriate for the quarry. Barnes Varmint Grenade for Predator/Furbearer hunting, and Barnes TTSX for medium sized game.
@ron, an important note about cryogenic treatments of steels is their purpose is to enhance hardness without developing high Internal stresses. Stresses will make it more likely the barrel could fail or crack under extra force but they wouldn’t cause asymmetric behavior during heating. You might see a a highly stressed barrel warp after getting over heated but once this occurs it would not return upon cooling. It’s important to not confuse hardness, strength and stiffness and other properties. Cryogenic treatments aren’t completely understood either and how they are performed is critical. I’d be careful about how they’re advertised becuase just taking a barrel down to -190C by tossing it in LN2 isn’t going to give good consistent results.
Had one of those frozen barrels, when I got it back from them, I was amazed at the better groups I got, and also doubles the life of the barrel. Kentucky
The Parker-Hale bolt action rifles were Mauser 98s (basically). I used to use the Parker-Hale bolt for my Mauser conversions. They fit a military 98 action perfectly. Most parts were interchangeable but the bolt body of the PH had to use the PH firing pin.
Good explanation of shooting up or down angle. Shooting at a downward angle causes a little more bullet rise but they both cause the bullet to strike higher. It's sometimes hard for people to understand this and will argue with the psychics of it.
Also im enjoying your videos because your knowledge on cartridge is amazing an I like the fact your not like everyone else that thinks you need this giant caliber to kill a white tail... kids knock them down with a 243. Its all about shot placement at the end of the day
Hi Ron , I watch you all the time. I am an old hunter, 66 now. I have a 722 Remington rifle chamber in 300 savage. Never see you do anything on the 300 savage. I would like to know what you think about it.
I have a Savage Model 99F in 300 Savage. Love it. Do anything 308 Winchester will do. Hand load for practice. Hunt with Hornady SuperFormance 150 grain. Been trying to get a 722 but haven't found one in good condition that I was willing to fork over the money for.
I have a Savage 99E in 300 Savage. Excellent, handy rifle and the most accurate lever action I’ve ever seen. If you hand load, I’ve gotten an extra 100fps by reforming and cutting 308 brass using the same loads as my reloaded 300 Savage brass. I think the walls may be a bit thicker.
My 722 is chambered in .25-284. Some say the 722 is the strongest action Remington ever built and if memory serves right went out of production in 1954(?).
If you ask people who literally feed themselves with a rifle, I bet most will choose the .243win. On a moose hunt in Newfoundland my guide told me that every moose that he personally killed was with his .243win. I left mine at home and used a 30.06 and my .270win. The .270 won out only because it was a tack driver!
Love listening to you Ron but I have to pull you up on this one. Gravity is constant. What changes is the horizontal distance to the target. If your target is 600m away up a 45° slope, it’s only approx. 430m away on the level. So adjusting your scope to 600m will see you shoot high. Adjust to 430m and you’ll be on the nose. Glad when I listened further we were pretty much in agreement but the gravitational effect isn’t different
I have a friend whose brother is a large ranch owner in Zmbawa and he and Rico were pretty much raised in Africa and both professional guides/hunters. I was told by both that the .243Win is good medicine. Not that they would go for a Dangerous game with one. But comparing the .243 to the 6.5 is almost like comparing apples to apples. Oh, let's throw in the 22-250, 6mm, 6 Creemore, 240 WBY, 25-06, and everything in between. Put the bullet in the right place and then let's argue over which dead animal is the deadest. Yes, the 6.5 is bigger and can be heavier but dead is dead, really? Let's go elephant hunting with a 6.5x5. No? Bell did it 100x. Bullet placement and construction are everything.
Ron, the shooting on a hill is simply a horizontal distance. At a 60% slope, COS is .5 so the horizontal distance is 1/2 the distance your range finder tells you. (I am a math teacher, not a good shooter.)
Keep things simple. For most shooters the .243 is readily available in popular weights. The 6.5mm offers some heavier bullets and all of the good that comes from that. Nosler used to make a 6.5 partition bullet that was so good.
One of the key points to remember about selecting hunting here in South Africa is that shooting game animals from a vehicle is illegal as is shooting at night with a light unless it is for certain animal species such as jackal or baboon as part of problem animal control programs. Game cullers / game croppers have to obtain special permits for this which are made out by the provincial conservation authorities and are specific to the game cropper, the farm and the species of animal to be culled/cropped. Private game farms have to submit their annual game counts and veld assessment in order to obtain the licences for how many of each species, number of each sex etc can be hunted. In addition to that the hunter has to have a permit for each animal which in the case of a foreign hunter is obtained by the Professional Hunter (PH). Book hunts through outfitters who can provide a list of references of hunters that have participated in walk & stalk hunts or other legally and ethically accepted methods of hunting in South Africa. There are some unscrupulous outfitters and Professional Hunters who will bend or break the rules to get their clients list of animals regardless of how impractical or bizarre it is. Foot pounds of energy is the direct measure of how much your feet weigh at the end of a long day and how tired you are and is directly proportional to how long you remember the hunt when you finally get the animal you are after. The only way to experience the African bush veld or savanna is to walk through it. Not to drive down a dirt road and shoot from a platform on the back of a 4x4. I understand the same applies in the USA. The various sport hunting associations in South Africa and other African countries all have web sites and will happily provide information regarding local legislation and ethics.
I am looking at getting a weatherby vanguard in 7-08 or 270. Is there a better option in the price range or cartridge? This would be my first deer rifle, and 7mm rem mag would be the recoil maximum. I would be hunting deer and possibly elk. Maximum range 300 meters, but I would prefer the rifle to be able to drop a deer farther than I can shoot.
I pride myself on shooting well. I have competition shot. But I am a hunter. I did and do One to be better at the other. Hunting is the most important to me.
A better way of thinking about angles is to think about it as shooting less distance. So your holdover is less. More like holding on the target and less inches over the target.
Good comments bout scope use, and lining up open sights. Critical, but seldome mentioned, is correct stock dimensions. Not quite so much as with a shotgun, but still very important. If your gun doesn't fitn you, you `ain`t getting the best shooting it can provide.
How about a compromise cartridge for deer and various fur bearing varmints 6mm creedmoor. Capable of launching short fast bullets like .243 and long high BC bullets like the 6.5.
With my 375 ultra mag I stopped a cape Buffalo charging with one shot in the brain same gun and bullet it took 4 body shots On an Australian water Buffalo In my 35 years of huntingChalk placement is very critical no matter what you're using The most important tip I could give any hunter is any hunter is to get to know the anatomy of the game they're huntingThank you Ron for all your videos they're very educational me and my family really enjoy watching them keep up the good work again thank you for the awesome content
Theres a reason the 243 has survived even with all the new cartidges that have come along over the years. Funny how they keep trying to reinvent something that already works. I shoot the 55gr BT for coyotes and 85gr Sierra for deer. Each one is a hammer!
The true strength of the 243 is it’s versatility. Sure the 6 creed is a slightly better deer rifle and long range round, but it can’t toss 55 gr varmint bullets because it’s twist rate is too fast in order to launch the long heavy bullets. 243 will always have a place in my safe because of this.
I own and hunt with a 243, but the 6.5 CM matches up more directly with the 7mm08, since both can throw 120 and 140 grain bullets like the 6.5 CM. I just don’t find any need for the 6.5 verses the 3 rounds (243/7mm08/308) that come from this one great case. Good video, now go do the 7mm08 vs the 6.5CM and you will see that the 6.5 is 90% of the 7mm08.
I've killed over 100 deer and hogs with a 243 the last 40 years. I have two still that are used to kill game every season. I have a couple 6.5s also myself I can't tell the difference in either on game. I use very fast 80 gr ttsx in the 243 and I have shot 180 pound 8 point in the chest straight on the bullet went completely through the whole buck out the back ham. Honestly I think the 7mm08 is a step up and is the very best southern game getter. The other new things are selling points to make money for ammo companies and sell 15 pound rifles and bullshyt kids into thinking they are Quigley from down under.
most of the decent range finders today can calculate the True Ballistic Range, which takes incline and decline into account. If you're going to be shooting at 600 yards you need a rangefinder in any case.
Many rifles would deform bullet tips in the magazine during recoil. I had a ruger 77 in .270 that was bad about that and a Parker Halr .270 that was also prone to deformity tips. I seem to remember that polymer tips were originally designed to address that issue.
@26 minutes. I run a 7mmMag on an MDT chassis. While it is heavier. I have confidence in it. Confident will out do my discomfort. A heavier rifle is also easier to control especially if you’re out of breath from climbing. So Ying and Yang. Confidence in whatever you shoot is king.
Use to have dozens of choices for .243 available commercially here in new england, and now.. just a few. My suspicion is that the 6.5 has become the new "starter", "general use" cartridge. Anyone else see similar?
It's hype. The American cartridges like 243 and 30-06 never die imo. 6.5 creed is great just like many choices though. Hope you see more 243 in the future.
I have had a 6.5 swede for 50 years. Been re-barreled twice. My brother got a 243 three years after I got the swede. Makes for forty five years of campfire arguments. Neither of us have been swayed in all of those years. I reload for both of us, so the what's in the store arguments don't apply.
The 6.5 Creedmoor was initially a 1000 yard target round. In fact, it is named after the Creedmoor rifle range in NY which was famous for marksmanship competitions.
6.5 bullets were around long before the 243 cartridge was invented. The 6.5x55 swede came out in 1895 I believe. 256 Newton/6.5-06 came out in 1913. There are a lot of 6.5/264 cartridges that have been around longer than the 243.
@@TexanUSMC8089 Back before the 6.5 Creedmoor finally became popular, I remember reading a lot of articles along the lines of "Why isn't the 6.5mm popular in the US". There were good cartridges, but for some reason they had not become popular.
@@jfess1911 6.5 swed is and has been the #1 round for moose and red deer (elk equivalent) throughout Northern Europe and the Slavic countries, including Russia. In other words most of the world apart from Africa and US
@@chipblanc6037 Yes, there were a lot of 6.5 cartridges commonly used throughout the world, they just were not popular in the US, hence the articles. To be more clear, "there were good cartridges , but for some reason they had not become popular IN THE US." FWIW, the US had a number of .25 cal cartridges and the 270 Winchester which straddled the 6.5mm. For a long time, the US had a weird phobia of the metric system, hence the name of the most popular 6mm cartridge being "The .243". The 7mm Rem Mag was a weird exception for some reason.
Hey Ron, can you please do a part on the 333 or the 285 OKH? Good old Elmer Keith was a genuine cowboy gun hand that I have always admired. In my personal opinion, that there 280 Remington is the best non magnum ever invented. That there 338 Winchester Magnum was invented by Elmer Keith is undeniably the best magnum ever. I've killed a dozen deer with it firing a 200 gr. Speer and you can actually eat right up to the holes on both sides. It doesn't tear em up, just pokes a clean, neat hole right through em.
Had a 6.5 creed and a .243.. had to thin the herd so the 6.5 went.. it did nothing that the 243 could not do.. but I also hunted with the 6.5/55 or 3006.. all had enough punch for deer, moose , Elk and black bear.. . still 308, or .284 or 6.5 swede
You dont need to bother with the cosine, just get Strelok on your phone and it will let you know, Ron was spot on dont worry if its a near shot but out past 300 aim 2" from chest of animal or the brisket as mentioned
Right on, Rob. Computing programs on one's phone are a fine solution IF you don't mind having/needing a battery powered device to help with your shooting. Many don't trust such tools. It's always wise to develop the skills to "do it yourself." For many of us, the easiest way to do this is by stalking close enough. For some this is 400 yards, 200 yards, 100 yards, 25 yards -- whatever. One thing is certain: the closer you are, the harder it is to miss. Nevertheless, many can miss a moose at 30 yards. (Of course, you can always consider your rifle as a high tech tool that can fail, too, which leaves you with your hands and a big rock...)
I've bagged countless deer over the years with. 243 ... love the round. It's like the wheel, no need to reinvent it.
I'm glad there aren't engineers that think like that. Otherwise we would wouldn't have indoor plumbing 😅
@@nunzionapoli6325or thousands of other modern day conveniences. Lol. Absolute truth
I have taken deer with .243, .260 rem, 6.5 crdr, and 6.5-284; the deer never knew the difference!
No, they never do. Cartridges differences are for humans to understand and appreciate, not deer. A 22 rimfire to the heart is just as deadly as a 300 Win Mag to the heart. But the Win Mag bullet is easier to deliver to that heart from 300 yards out.
man back in the 2000's you couldn't get me to put my 6.5-284 down lol....what a fantastic round for the time.
The 6.5 is a great round. But I will always have a soft spot for the 243.
I'm 69 now and bought a .243 Win just before I turned 17 and I too have a soft spot for the ,243 Win. I have also killed several truck loads of game with the .243!
The 243 win can drop down to a 58 grain for coyotes, through in a 100 grain SP for whitetails and you are good. 243 a bit more suited to varmint/whitetail. I have been shooting the same bullet/load for both for many years. Try reloading the 85 grain Sierra Gameking HPBT. Lights out with a good shot on both every time. Yes, hammers whitetail.
Nothing wrong with the 58 grain for whitetails. Its hard on em.
Right Jay and one can get 243W everywhere.
95gr HPBT has an amazing BC compared to a lot of other rounds.
I shoot 95 sst in my 243 extremely accurate with 41.7 Imr 4831
@@baobo67you can get 6.5cm anywhere also
Both 243. and 6.5 creedmoore are great deer cartridges
I'm not disagreeing, but when I went hunting in RSA for antelope sized game they would not let me use a 243. Reason, too light and velocity too fast for the ranges that the game might be engaged in bush and we might meet something else which would require a bigger round. Used a 30-06. Everything was DRT, but what would you expect at 150yds with a 180gr.
@@csjrogerson2377 What does DRT mean.?
~I saw Jim Shockey hunt with 2x muzzle loader rifles in Africa on TV. A fellow next to him carried his second muzzle loader rifle. Jim took one shot then the fellow handed him the other rifle for second shot, Jim solved the problem of getting off a quick second shot by using 2 rifles.
@@royjohnson465 Dead Right There.
@@twlongtine Thank you, I will stick with brass metallic cartridges, because muzzle loaders are way too slow with a badly inefficient second shot. Even a single-shot brass cartridge rifle like a 35 Whelen, 338 Win Mag, or 45-70 >>"is" far better and vastly more superior over
Dead is dead! Take your pick.
I often listen to your channel while my daughter is sleeping/falling asleep. I appreciate your approach on your videos. I know I can learn about cartridges and or firearms without chaos. Just the information looking for!
Thanks for another video, I enjoy learning.
.243 is cheaper and is available at most stores if your in a remote town/location
In my experience currently where I live, the exact opposite is true. 243 ammo is nowhere or very limited selection. 6.5 creedmoor is everywhere and in many many loadings.
For me I can’t find either. 45/70 and 308 is everywhere all the time Around northern Michigan.
Not cheaper
I look forward to everything you post sir, thank your for what you do!
And I second that !
3rd
I’m in Texas. Not everything is bigger here like they say, so pretty much anything works for the Chihuahua size deer.
I remember when I first moved to texas from Nebraska. To say I was in shock when I saw the turkey damn near dwarfed the deer is an understatement. The biggest texas deer I ever took was the same size as a Nebraska fawn 😂
Yukyukyuk! I’m in New Mexico and those Chihuahuas are scared to come over here!
You mean I shouldn’t use my 28 Nosler next weekend?
@@raider2503 always use your 28 Nosler!
@@whoshotashleybabbitt4924 Ay,Ay Captain!
I love your vast knowledge of hunting and firearms. Great to see your enthusiasm hasn’t waned over the years either. Thanx so much, a truely great man
Thank you Abbey.
The 6.5 is the deer caliber here for sure!!! drops them in their tracks. My first deer with the 6.5 and i tell you i have a new favorite for Deer. They just drop or at least this one did not even one step. Very impressed with this gun i used the 140 grain Hornady . Not only does it drop them in their tracks it is a pleasure to shoot. Glad i picked up this caliber 🙂
I will stick with my 243 .
Parker Hale rifles were and still are popular here in Canada. Most I have used have been sporterized Lee Enfield’s in 303 British. My first rifle was such a gun. Seemed to take game just fine!
shot my first deer with a .243 at nine years old in the 1990’s as many kids used to do. I am sure that the caliber selection for youngsters and first deer has broadened and expanded over the years with the popularity of .223, new calibers developed, et cetera. But for a time period of maybe forty or fifty years there was an actual tradition amongst many American hunters of “getting your first deer with the .243”
I am looking at buying a .243 for this reason because it will be easier to manage for my wife and kids will be my first deer rifle
@@daimyo1959 try a gun shop with a large number of used rifles 243 in rem model 700 is just a good lightweight solid rifle and not too light to allow more recoil control with smaller kiddos say 6 and up
@@RamboniiWasn't there an issue with the Remington 700 firing unintentionally? Grease/grime buildup on the sear causing it to go off unintentionally or something?
Ron, the 243 is all they need. I shoot 55 grain Nosler BT powered by VARGET, leaving the muzzle @ 3950 fps. I seldom if ever get an exit hole, but if it does...... it's UGLY.
For deer/antelope, the 85 or 90gr Nosler Partition. But lately the Barnes 85gr TTSX are kickin butt and takin names.
Most decent range finders these days have an angle compensation mode that will give you the horizontal distance. Calculate your bullet drop based on horizontal distance and calculate wind drift on actual linear distance and you're done.
DOn't forget the 6.5x55 Swede. The surplus rifles have a fast 1 in 8,6 twist and can stabilize a pretty long bullet. SAAMI loads are reduced pressure rounds because of the number of surplus rifles. Handloaded for modern rifle (lots of them in Europe) The Swede gives up nothing to the Creedmore. It is still widely used in Scandinavia for taking moose and large antelope in Africa
This is true for a lot of classic cartridges. Especially for hunting purposes. While the technical advancements in recent years are neat, they aren’t really necessary.
There’s not many problems and man can’t fix with $700 and a .30-06. Or .270, .25-06, .243, 7mm-08, .308 or 6.5 Swede.
That's the one I use.... one of the first.
270
I killed my first buck with a .243. I just killed my second about 25 years later with a .30-30. I'll kill my next one with a 6.5 Creedmoor.
Love your content!
The uphill downhill things was a great explanation. Especially about overestimating.
Remember as a kid going up to top of John Hancock building and looking straight down ( or so I thought) to see a chalk outline of a body on the sidewalk (someone's idea of a joke)
Got outside to find it like almost a block away.
Tree stands would be some of your steepest angles depending on how high up and how close game comes to it.
For steep shots we have a saying in German: "Ob rauf, ob runter, halt drunter" (If up or down, aim low)
As always a delight to listen to you.
I'll try to remember that.
I have best of both worlds 6.5 x 55 which was always my deer rifle and a great one, but a couple of years ago a very high quality 243 feel into my hands I suppressed it and put some very good glass on it I'm older and richer than I used to be so why not have something very nice to hunt with I love that it has almost zero blast and minimal recoil but I can't part with the 6.5 after all its still good so I have gifted it to my son who lives a long way away so I can fly down to his place and not take a rifle :)
If you mainly hunt deer and just hunt coyotes now and then, I recommend the 6.5 Creedmoor.
Specially if the deer you hunt have large bodies.
The .243 is decent/good on deer, but if you hunt in an area with big bodied bucks, you will need to be much more careful with shot angles than you need with the 6.5 Creedmoor.
With the 6.5 Creedmoor you can either use 85-100 grain varmint bullets on coyotes if you don't care about the pelt, and if you care about the pelt, you can either use FMJ bullets or you can use expanding bullets that don't expand much on light game like coyotes and the Barnes TSX bullets are good for that.
If you want to keep it simple, you can load the 6.5 Creedmoor with the 120 or 130 grain Barnes TSX bullets and use the same load for both deer and coyotes with great effect.
Personally I prefer the TTSX or the LRX bullets on deer, but they are usually not gentle with the pelts.
Specially not the LRX.
But the 127 grain LRX bullet is an amazing long range hunting bullet on both deer and coyotes.
If you mainly hunt coyotes and/or the deer you hunt are not that big, then the .243 is a great choice as well.
Even the 223 can work well on deer if you make sure to use high quality bullets, like Barnes bullets, know how to shoot and where to place your shots.
I have shot many deer with the 223.
And it is a fantastic cartridge for varmints.
I believe in sticking with old school calibers. I’d go with a 243 and some 80gr tsx for deer & some 80 grain ballistic tips or reg soft points for varmints, but that’s just me
Old school here too! 243... 270... 308 and yup ...35 remington!
The .243 Winchester is probably the perfect deer cartridge in my opinion.
It’s an amazing little round.
It’s great for hogs too.
It is!!!
@@ericdanos373 the only deer I’ve ever killed with a different round was a button buck with a 30-30 and it’s the only one I’ve had not just hit the ground with a good shot
6.5 creedmoor and 300 blackout are more fun tho
My great grandfather's 303 savage with 190gr soft point dropped my 49 1/2 inch moose last year in Northern BC.. it's been putting game in the freezer since 1909, when he bought it new.
It's the distance in a strait line horizontal, not at any angle, upwards or downwards. The newest rangefinders have the adjustable readings and have the line of site, and the angle adjusting readings. This will do the trick for the shooting up in the hi country.
I teach that Math as a High School Math teacher. Your figures are correct (but we already knew they would be). Thanks for the great explanation!
Thanks for all of your hard work sir!!! Both honest and humble.
I’ve shot squirrels from trees at steeper than 45-degrees, Ron’s reckoning is precisely correct. It works because the scope reticule is orthogonal to the sight axis.
My first deer rifle was a 243 when I was 10 years old yes I have other rifles as well but my 243 Winchester is always my go to as Old faithful. Especially with newer hunters or younger hunters that will recall really allows them to make precise shots that hit deer in the vitals every time!
I learned something new today about how angles effect trajectory. Thank you for that!
Awesome, my trigonometry class is paying off. Unfortunately, i was really slow at the equation. Thank God the range finder does it in seconds vs. my minutes. 6.5 vs. .243 relevant comparison. Thank you.
We moved to Peoria Illinois back in the mid 60s. It was right about the time that the Shooting Times was getting started. Somehow, my dad got to knwo some of those folks. You kind of remind me of being 10-11 years old and hanging out with him and all these really knwoledgable guys and just talking about species and hunts and elk camps and rifles and cartridges. It really locked me into a lifetime of enjoyment with all the shooting sports from hunting to bullseye pistols to IPSC. Such fun!
I really enjoyed the simplistic explanation for shooting up or downhill at game.
I love me some precision peep sights. I"m 61 and I still have pretty good eyes.. Sometimes up close it's a little blurry, but hot bad.. I used to have the best eyes when younger and won more than a few local rifle competitions.. Varmint hunted with a rifle with open sights for a long time.. Mini 14. I did use a scope later because I was shooting a really long way with some of the ground hog hunts and needed it to see them at all..
Great show.. Love this show..
Thank you Ron!
I mentioned this Ron, on your "TikTok" or "Instragram" short on this subject. The .243 and 6.5 mm Creedmoor should be compared to 6 mm Remington. Its performance is very comparable and superior in some criteria but the 6mm Remington is often overlooked.
Super expensive ammunition
But the same price as the .243 if you reload. Maybe a few more grains of powder depending on bullet weight. I have both, love both, but would choose 6mm Rem if I had to choose one.
@@ryanj9364 if I was a dedicated 6mm shooter, I would choose the 6mm Remington over the 243 win. I’m a handloader though. If I wasn’t a handloader I’d prolly pick the 243 due to more factory offerings. Performance wise the 6mm rem is better than the 243 in my opinion.
Both work. I like both. .243 is not as easy to find as it used to be. 6.5 is everywhere now. One of each! Good call.
The .308 is a 600 yard deer round with 150 grain spitzers and will reliably take down elephant, rhino and cape buffalo with 220 grain solids. Easy to load the .308 down for reduced recoil and shorter range use.
You're correct about there not be a stopping round, I've been knocked over by a cape buff that took 3 X 375 mag and 3 X 458 rounds. It was dead on it's feet but still had enough momentum to knock me over! Big rifles will turn most big game but not stop them.
Six of one - half dozen of the other. Both will do the job fine. The 6.5 will retain velocity/energy farther and have less wind deflection if you hunt at longer ranges. The .243 will shoot flatter initially. Hunt with the one you have, or if you're in the market, buy the one you like better.
6.5 Creedmoor or .243 Win would be perfect for this role. Carry bullets appropriate for the quarry. Barnes Varmint Grenade for Predator/Furbearer hunting, and Barnes TTSX for medium sized game.
1
@ron, an important note about cryogenic treatments of steels is their purpose is to enhance hardness without developing high Internal stresses. Stresses will make it more likely the barrel could fail or crack under extra force but they wouldn’t cause asymmetric behavior during heating. You might see a a highly stressed barrel warp after getting over heated but once this occurs it would not return upon cooling.
It’s important to not confuse hardness, strength and stiffness and other properties.
Cryogenic treatments aren’t completely understood either and how they are performed is critical. I’d be careful about how they’re advertised becuase just taking a barrel down to -190C by tossing it in LN2 isn’t going to give good consistent results.
Ron, Thank you for answering my question. Somehow, I missed this episode until now!
Again, thank you so much!
I read that the 243 with a 58 gr bullet is very good for taking coyote and saving the pelt. As good or better than the 22-250.
I use my 243 for Nephilim! My bowie knife for prong and white tail, the look in my eye for coyote!
I thought Nephilim were endangered. How did you get a permit/license?
Had one of those frozen barrels, when I got it back from them, I was amazed at the better groups I got, and also doubles the life of the barrel. Kentucky
The Parker-Hale bolt action rifles were Mauser 98s (basically). I used to use the Parker-Hale bolt for my Mauser conversions. They fit a military 98 action perfectly. Most parts were interchangeable but the bolt body of the PH had to use the PH firing pin.
I use a Leupold TBR Range finder. Set for my cartridge. Range your target: it reads the Shooting solution. Do what it says.
Good explanation of shooting up or down angle. Shooting at a downward angle causes a little more bullet rise but they both cause the bullet to strike higher. It's sometimes hard for people to understand this and will argue with the psychics of it.
Inside 300 yards and under 300 pounds are my personal restrictions for the. 243. That goes out to 450 for both criteria with the Creedmoor.
Ron, Did you run a 3 shot group through your UA-cam award? I was thinking it was my screen. Lmao. It looks like a nice group. 😂
Whew you covered a LOT of property on this one. I find myself agreeing with you. Your presentation and information is spot on. Thank you sir!!!!!!!
Thank you as always Ron. Great information, well presented.
Also im enjoying your videos because your knowledge on cartridge is amazing an I like the fact your not like everyone else that thinks you need this giant caliber to kill a white tail... kids knock them down with a 243. Its all about shot placement at the end of the day
I used to use a .243 for whitetails loaded with a 90gr Barnes X bullet & Varget. Never lost a deer.
How much Varget?
I don’t recall. I used a Barnes manual and went a few grains under max.
Hi Ron ,
I watch you all the time. I am an old hunter, 66 now. I have a 722 Remington rifle chamber in 300 savage. Never see you do anything on the 300 savage. I would like to know what you think about it.
I have a Savage Model 99F in 300 Savage. Love it. Do anything 308 Winchester will do. Hand load for practice. Hunt with Hornady SuperFormance 150 grain. Been trying to get a 722 but haven't found one in good condition that I was willing to fork over the money for.
I have a Savage 99E in 300 Savage. Excellent, handy rifle and the most accurate lever action I’ve ever seen. If you hand load, I’ve gotten an extra 100fps by reforming and cutting 308 brass using the same loads as my reloaded 300 Savage brass. I think the walls may be a bit thicker.
My 722 is chambered in .25-284.
Some say the 722 is the strongest action Remington ever built and if memory serves right went out of production in 1954(?).
Love the 243 ❤
I use a golfing rangefinder with pin finder and slope finder , range it and it gives % of slope and a adjusted yardage up or down! 👍🏴🇬🇧
If you ask people who literally feed themselves with a rifle, I bet most will choose the .243win. On a moose hunt in Newfoundland my guide told me that every moose that he personally killed was with his .243win. I left mine at home and used a 30.06 and my .270win. The .270 won out only because it was a tack driver!
Love listening to you Ron but I have to pull you up on this one. Gravity is constant. What changes is the horizontal distance to the target. If your target is 600m away up a 45° slope, it’s only approx. 430m away on the level. So adjusting your scope to 600m will see you shoot high. Adjust to 430m and you’ll be on the nose.
Glad when I listened further we were pretty much in agreement but the gravitational effect isn’t different
I have a friend whose brother is a large ranch owner in Zmbawa and he and Rico were pretty much raised in Africa and both professional guides/hunters. I was told by both that the .243Win is good medicine. Not that they would go for a Dangerous game with one. But comparing the .243 to the 6.5 is almost like comparing apples to apples. Oh, let's throw in the 22-250, 6mm, 6 Creemore, 240 WBY, 25-06, and everything in between. Put the bullet in the right place and then let's argue over which dead animal is the deadest. Yes, the 6.5 is bigger and can be heavier but dead is dead, really? Let's go elephant hunting with a 6.5x5. No? Bell did it 100x. Bullet placement and construction are everything.
Amen
Ron, the shooting on a hill is simply a horizontal distance. At a 60% slope, COS is .5 so the horizontal distance is 1/2 the distance your range finder tells you. (I am a math teacher, not a good shooter.)
Keep things simple. For most shooters the .243 is readily available in popular weights. The 6.5mm offers some heavier bullets and all of the good that comes from that. Nosler used to make a 6.5 partition bullet that was so good.
One of the key points to remember about selecting hunting here in South Africa is that shooting game animals from a vehicle is illegal as is shooting at night with a light unless it is for certain animal species such as jackal or baboon as part of problem animal control programs. Game cullers / game croppers have to obtain special permits for this which are made out by the provincial conservation authorities and are specific to the game cropper, the farm and the species of animal to be culled/cropped. Private game farms have to submit their annual game counts and veld assessment in order to obtain the licences for how many of each species, number of each sex etc can be hunted. In addition to that the hunter has to have a permit for each animal which in the case of a foreign hunter is obtained by the Professional Hunter (PH). Book hunts through outfitters who can provide a list of references of hunters that have participated in walk & stalk hunts or other legally and ethically accepted methods of hunting in South Africa. There are some unscrupulous outfitters and Professional Hunters who will bend or break the rules to get their clients list of animals regardless of how impractical or bizarre it is. Foot pounds of energy is the direct measure of how much your feet weigh at the end of a long day and how tired you are and is directly proportional to how long you remember the hunt when you finally get the animal you are after. The only way to experience the African bush veld or savanna is to walk through it. Not to drive down a dirt road and shoot from a platform on the back of a 4x4. I understand the same applies in the USA. The various sport hunting associations in South Africa and other African countries all have web sites and will happily provide information regarding local legislation and ethics.
1952 FN .243. Never let me down.
I am looking at getting a weatherby vanguard in 7-08 or 270. Is there a better option in the price range or cartridge? This would be my first deer rifle, and 7mm rem mag would be the recoil maximum. I would be hunting deer and possibly elk. Maximum range 300 meters, but I would prefer the rifle to be able to drop a deer farther than I can shoot.
I pride myself on shooting well. I have competition shot. But I am a hunter. I did and do One to be better at the other. Hunting is the most important to me.
A better way of thinking about angles is to think about it as shooting less distance. So your holdover is less. More like holding on the target and less inches over the target.
Back in the 1970s my buddy had a Parker Hale 7mm Rem mag on a mauser action, It shot well and was well made,his was free floated and glass beaded.
Good comments bout scope use, and lining up open sights. Critical, but seldome mentioned, is correct stock dimensions. Not quite so much as with a shotgun, but still very important. If your gun doesn't fitn you, you `ain`t getting the best shooting it can provide.
I just got my own 243 win and didn’t have a second choice. It’s what grandpa used and it’s what I’m using. Even taken 4 elk with one!
How many have you wounded and lost?
Grandpa knows best
Those Hornady ftx 30-30s are no joke. Drops a moose within 120 yards pretty effectively.
dry homogenous materials in a pile generally experience slope failure when the angle of repose (the resting slope angle) exceeds 33-37°
Thank you for this informative and entertaining presentation.
You are most welcomed, sir.
Thanks Ron as always very interesting info on the shooting sports.
How about a compromise cartridge for deer and various fur bearing varmints
6mm creedmoor.
Capable of launching short fast bullets like .243 and long high BC bullets like the 6.5.
Dang, loved this! Thanks Ron.
With my 375 ultra mag I stopped a cape Buffalo charging with one shot in the brain same gun and bullet it took 4 body shots On an Australian water Buffalo In my 35 years of huntingChalk placement is very critical no matter what you're using The most important tip I could give any hunter is any hunter is to get to know the anatomy of the game they're huntingThank you Ron for all your videos they're very educational me and my family really enjoy watching them keep up the good work again thank you for the awesome content
Theres a reason the 243 has survived even with all the new cartidges that have come along over the years. Funny how they keep trying to reinvent something that already works. I shoot the 55gr BT for coyotes and 85gr Sierra for deer. Each one is a hammer!
Thry want to sell more rifles thats why they are making new cartridges
The true strength of the 243 is it’s versatility. Sure the 6 creed is a slightly better deer rifle and long range round, but it can’t toss 55 gr varmint bullets because it’s twist rate is too fast in order to launch the long heavy bullets. 243 will always have a place in my safe because of this.
I own and hunt with a 243, but the 6.5 CM matches up more directly with the 7mm08, since both can throw 120 and 140 grain bullets like the 6.5 CM. I just don’t find any need for the 6.5 verses the 3 rounds (243/7mm08/308) that come from this one great case. Good video, now go do the 7mm08 vs the 6.5CM and you will see that the 6.5 is 90% of the 7mm08.
I've killed over 100 deer and hogs with a 243 the last 40 years. I have two still that are used to kill game every season. I have a couple 6.5s also myself I can't tell the difference in either on game. I use very fast 80 gr ttsx in the 243 and I have shot 180 pound 8 point in the chest straight on the bullet went completely through the whole buck out the back ham. Honestly I think the 7mm08 is a step up and is the very best southern game getter. The other new things are selling points to make money for ammo companies and sell 15 pound rifles and bullshyt kids into thinking they are Quigley from down under.
most of the decent range finders today can calculate the True Ballistic Range, which takes incline and decline into account. If you're going to be shooting at 600 yards you need a rangefinder in any case.
They both work fine.
Many rifles would deform bullet tips in the magazine during recoil. I had a ruger 77 in .270 that was bad about that and a Parker Halr .270 that was also prone to deformity tips. I seem to remember that polymer tips were originally designed to address that issue.
@26 minutes. I run a 7mmMag on an MDT chassis. While it is heavier. I have confidence in it. Confident will out do my discomfort. A heavier rifle is also easier to control especially if you’re out of breath from climbing. So Ying and Yang. Confidence in whatever you shoot is king.
Really enjoy your show !! Watch as much as I can !
Thanks Bill.
Use to have dozens of choices for .243 available commercially here in new england, and now.. just a few. My suspicion is that the 6.5 has become the new "starter", "general use" cartridge. Anyone else see similar?
It's hype. The American cartridges like 243 and 30-06 never die imo. 6.5 creed is great just like many choices though. Hope you see more 243 in the future.
I have had a 6.5 swede for 50 years. Been re-barreled twice. My brother got a 243 three years after I got the swede. Makes for forty five years of campfire arguments. Neither of us have been swayed in all of those years. I reload for both of us, so the what's in the store arguments don't apply.
Thanks!
6mm Remington and 243 Winchester probably two best rounds ever made for medium size game .. probably why they came up with the 6.5
The 6.5 Creedmoor was initially a 1000 yard target round. In fact, it is named after the Creedmoor rifle range in NY which was famous for marksmanship competitions.
6.5 bullets were around long before the 243 cartridge was invented. The 6.5x55 swede came out in 1895 I believe. 256 Newton/6.5-06 came out in 1913. There are a lot of 6.5/264 cartridges that have been around longer than the 243.
@@TexanUSMC8089 Back before the 6.5 Creedmoor finally became popular, I remember reading a lot of articles along the lines of "Why isn't the 6.5mm popular in the US". There were good cartridges, but for some reason they had not become popular.
@@jfess1911 6.5 swed is and has been the #1 round for moose and red deer (elk equivalent) throughout Northern Europe and the Slavic countries, including Russia. In other words most of the world apart from Africa and US
@@chipblanc6037 Yes, there were a lot of 6.5 cartridges commonly used throughout the world, they just were not popular in the US, hence the articles. To be more clear, "there were good cartridges , but for some reason they had not become popular IN THE US."
FWIW, the US had a number of .25 cal cartridges and the 270 Winchester which straddled the 6.5mm. For a long time, the US had a weird phobia of the metric system, hence the name of the most popular 6mm cartridge being "The .243". The 7mm Rem Mag was a weird exception for some reason.
The “Tipped Core-Lok” is also a was to raise the price from low to mid $20s to $30-$50 a box. 😳
I smugly look at one of the 6/6 bull elk mounted in my shop shot with my .243, number 19 elk to be precise......... as Im watching this great clip..
6.5 CM is just a graduation up from the 243. Next a shooter graduates up to the 7mm-08 & 25-06, as far as energy and recoil are concerned for hunting.
Hey Ron, can you please do a part on the 333 or the 285 OKH? Good old Elmer Keith was a genuine cowboy gun hand that I have always admired. In my personal opinion, that there 280 Remington is the best non magnum ever invented. That there 338 Winchester Magnum was invented by Elmer Keith is undeniably the best magnum ever. I've killed a dozen deer with it firing a 200 gr. Speer and you can actually eat right up to the holes on both sides. It doesn't tear em up, just pokes a clean, neat hole right through em.
Trimming my plants in the basement well listening to Ron. Thanks for the great content my favorite gun channel on UA-cam cheers from Canada 🍻
Some say trimming some say shaping. I’m guessing it’s not tomato plants
😅 LOL
Core Lokt Tipped is a redesigned profile from what I have read..its not simply a tip stuck in the tip of the old one.
Had a 6.5 creed and a .243.. had to thin the herd so the 6.5 went.. it did nothing that the 243 could not do.. but I also hunted with the 6.5/55 or 3006.. all had enough punch for deer, moose , Elk and black bear..
. still 308, or .284 or 6.5 swede
Great information. Good job. Thank you for the hard work.
You dont need to bother with the cosine, just get Strelok on your phone and it will let you know,
Ron was spot on dont worry if its a near shot but out past 300 aim 2" from chest of animal or the brisket as mentioned
Right on, Rob. Computing programs on one's phone are a fine solution IF you don't mind having/needing a battery powered device to help with your shooting. Many don't trust such tools. It's always wise to develop the skills to "do it yourself." For many of us, the easiest way to do this is by stalking close enough. For some this is 400 yards, 200 yards, 100 yards, 25 yards -- whatever. One thing is certain: the closer you are, the harder it is to miss. Nevertheless, many can miss a moose at 30 yards. (Of course, you can always consider your rifle as a high tech tool that can fail, too, which leaves you with your hands and a big rock...)
My old rem 788 loves that combo