River was in the suit to torture her for not killing the Doctor in Let's kill hitler. Hence in last episode they said "did you think we wouldn't find you again" which is after she escaped them even though she failed what they wanted. Basically it was her punishment for falling in love with him
Well they should've thought of that before they made her, y'know... fall in love with him. Next time just hire an assassin. Also if she was genetically modified to kill the Doctor, or whatever, why didn't River use any of her cool Time Lord powers? IIRC, Time Lords can steal bodies, hypnotize people, build technology out of junk, use Venusian aikido, and probably some other shit I'm forgetting. And that's all _without_ regeneration, which is apparently from another dimension or something let's not talk about it. Am I overthinking this? Probably, yeah, but I don't really get the relevance of River being part Time Lord. Can she build a TARDIS? Now there was a missed opportunity! Child of the TARDIS, growing her own TARDIS.
You more or less answer your own question regards the spacesuit and River. A bit of Who lore helps here but its too long, so the very brief version is the early universe was chaotic, the Time Lords stabilised and organised it by creating the Web of Time, but to stay stable certain things always have to happen within the Web. The Fixed points. Breaking a Fixed Point can cause the entirity of the Web to unravel and the universe to plunge into chaos, which we see represented as all of Time happening at once. Some places and moments in time, Still Points, can become Fixed Points if manipulated correctly. The way Kovarian and co do this is to come up with a memorable story which can be 'seeded' as myth/legend and partial history - namely that the Doctor dies on Lake Silencio at the hands of an Impossible Astronaut rising from the Lake that may or not be River Song, the woman who either married or killed the Doctor or did both. This tale is then seeded, we hear it in nursery ryhmnes, in the legends of Demons Run, in the Tessalectors records and in the archeological evidence River follows and gathers in her diary and in the legends about them she tells Twelve about at the Singing Towers. By creating that mass of legend, tales, songs, poetry and archeology it turns the moment from a Still Point in the Web of Time into a Fixed Point. And as such River has to be there, has to be in the suit, has to be part of the event and of the evidence of the event (including her conviction for the crime and prison time) for it to succesfully pass into legend and become Fixed. She is not required to operate the suit, its preprogrammed, she is simply required to be there in order to fulfill the manufactured narrative created by Kovarian to make it Fixed. You seem to have Kovarian wrong, they are not trying to stop the Doctor destroying the universe, they are trying to stop the Doctor reaching Trenzalore, where they (Kovarian and the Silence and the entire Church) have been dragged into and involved in a seemingly endelss war (it lasts roughly one thousand years) with the Doctor and just about everyone else. That is why she is bitter and resentful and has glee to see the Doctor and anyone associated with him suffer. She has presumably seen the Church damaged, friends and collegues killed year on year, she simply hates the Doctor. Regards The Question. Remember Dorian is from the future, from the time period of River, Kovarian, Demons Run and Trenzalore, and he was a gatherer of information. He knows why Kovarian was doing what she was doing, he knows about Trenzalore and what is coming. It is not that he is saying the Doctor is the most important person, it is more he is warning him that even if he wants to go back into the shadows Trenzalore is still going to happen to him whether he chooses it or not, as for Dorian, it already has.
Your comment definitely explained a lot of things well done 👍 The episode is still jumbled, and without this lore (especially if you're a fan that doesn't delve too deep into DW mythos) then the episode suffers
What? No. None of that is correct. The doctor’s death at the lake wasn’t seeded into legend, That was the Pandorica. That was the other enemies tricking the Doctor in order to stop the tardis from exploding. The lake we actually see happen, so no there wasn’t a legend. River, Kavarian, Tessaract, Dorian are from the future, which is how they can know about the doctor’s death and why it’s fixed, they’ve seen it written and once you see it written then it’s fixed.
@@chrissmith6097 No Kovarian and co expressly go back in time to prevent the Doctor ever reaching Trenzalore, their first attempt was to do so by having River attempt to assassinate him- Lets Kill Hitler- which failed. Their second attempt was to stop him being able to get there by blowing up his TARDIS - Pandorica Opens - this failed. And their final attempt was to convert a still point into a fixed point - The Impossible Astronaut - which failed. This is openly stated in episodes. The method by which they change a Still point to a Fixed one is the memorable story of the impossible astronaut that strikes the Doctor down and has Rivers involvement, we hear of it contionually through nursery poems, stories River recounts, the Tesselector records of the event, Rivers prison record for the crime. Its not because Kovarian and co are from the future they know of his death, they are creating it - in their future the Doctor did not die at Lake Silencio, he got to Trenzalore and they are going back to change stuff to try to stop him getting there. It doesnt work because as the Doctor tells the Head of the Church you cant alter events you are already part of, you just cause them to happen. In this case trying to stop the Doctor caused the cracks in time which let the Time Lords signal through which leads to Trenzalore, which leads to the seige which leads to a faction of the church to go back in time to stop the Doctor reaching Trenzalore, causing the cracks in time which let the Time Lords signal through which leads to Trenzalore, which leads to the seige which leads to a faction of the church to go back in time to stop the Doctor reching Trenzalore etc
@@xenon8117 In fairness to Moffat I feel he is quite consistent within his own run when it comes to Fixed Points, and its consistent with the general Who mythos concerning the Web of Time (which is directly refernced in Hell Bent when the General warns the Doctor his actions could unravel the Web of Time) he did however add to that mythos with Still Points, moments which can be manufactured into a fixed point (which given the Web itself was somehow manufactured and all the fixed points in it is fair enough as an addition).
It's the moments that salvage this one for me. That, and I am naturally inclined to forgive ambitious failure. Glorious failure beats bland success for me every time. Might be a British thing. What I miss about Moff is that in every episode - even the ones that don't work - there's always something for me to enjoy. Amy's "River Song didn't get all of that from you" moment might just be my favourite companion moment of all time. I enjoy the idea of the Doctor fighting shoulder to shoulder with Churchill even though they have no memory of it. I'd forgotten that the moment about the Brigadier was in this episode, and I'd also forgotten that they actually made it matter to the plot. Both lovely touches. On a purely personal level, the scene with the Roman chariot at traffic lights is set in Aldgate near my company's head office so that gives me that little frisson on excitement you get when you unexpectedly see someone you know really well on screen (and I'd like to give them points for resisting the temptation to use more familiar and therefore tired London landmarks than the Gherkin....) I can recall watching this when it first aired and it feeling like a real game changer. I don't fault this episode for the show's failure to really follow through.
Agreed about Moffat's episodes. I find that I haven't rewatched any of Chibnall's "bad" episodes. I simply just forget about them. With Moffats episodes that I personally find bad (Let's kill Hitler, Hell Bent etc) I still find myself rewatching them every now and then because there's so much to dissect and analyse.
I am a huge fan of the whole Moffat era. I don't really hate any of his episodes and I can watch every episode in his tenure, I don't see It being the same with chibnall (tho I like his era, especially series 12 which I'm loving.... Except orphan 55,never need to see that ever again) there's also a fair few of Davies era I struggle to rewatch. Each to their own but yeah love Moffat era, series 7 included, (its just fun series!)
It wasn't terrible, just... confusing. When did the Doctor go inside the Tesselecta? Surely the Tesselecta in the form of the Doctor shouldn't count as the Doctor when it 'died'? Also I think they needed River because Madame Kovarian is a b**** and wants to see the Doctor and River suffer.
If the killer were another person, the Doctor should try and stop the killer changing something - perhaps even causing his/her death. But he would not do this to a Amy's child.
@@mbarros3078 Exactly! I think one other conceptional reason for why they used River in that suit is that they knew, at that point in time she would be someone, the Doctor would let close enough to him so that she could shoot him. Which didn´t turn out to be relevant, because the Doctor seemed to would have let it happen, no matter who it would be. But from Kovarian´s standpoint, I think, that was always kind of the idea. Which helped me tolerate it a bit easier....
@@mystic_mimi21 It's a shame really, The Impossible Astronaut is one of my favourite episodes of all time and the set-up was great, but it sort of went nowhere with this episode. I guess the Tesselecta is a Time Lord now
Another point.. I really feel like the wedding was put into this episode so that they could name the episode "The Wedding of River Song" and build some hype.
Just found your channel. Really enjoying your videos. Also, it's kind of the messiness that can make it good in a way. It makes people talk about it more.
*Moffat-* "Alright, we've wrapped up production on The Wedding of River Song! Welp, time to start writing the next sea-" *Editor-* "Wait a minute, isn't the Doctor supposed to have died or something?* *Moffat-* Oh fish fingers you're right... uh... *Editor-* We just finished filming everything, what do we do!?!? *Moffat-* Isn't the Doctor friends with a giant spaceship that can imitate other people? *Editor-* Oh yeah, the uh... _reads notes_ Tesselecta. *Moffat-* Let's just throw in some extra footage at the end that shows that the Doctor was, uh... the Tesselecta. Yeah. *Editor-* Alright, I can do that. *Moffat-* Oh wait, forgot to end it on a cliffhanger. Make the blue guy ask the Doctor's name at the end I guess. Idk, we'll figure it out later.
I really liked that the oldest question in the Universe was Doctor Who, I liked it in a meta sense, that was the first thing anyone ever saw from the show, it's title. It also made sense from a lore perspective, the Doctor has been to the beginning, they've also been to the end, at least twice so it makes sense that the question would be splattered across time, and be considered to be the oldest question ever
I agree with your thoughts on Madame Covarian. A whole season developing a character who feels she has to kill the doctor for the greater good, but really doesn't want to would have been so interesting and complex. Instead we got Doctor Evil 2.0.
I really have to go through all these uploads again and actually remember to click "like". We dont agree on everything obviously (that would be weird after all :D) but I gotta say I really like your style and the fact that you dont deal in absolutes like many other people reviewing on the internet do. DW or otherwise. Hat off to you sir! ;)
The fixed point is the Doctor giving his life to River. It's a play upon words. She takes it or.. he gives it away willingly through marriage. In my headcannon, originally River and the Doctor were supposed to get married, so the Silence took that fixed point in time as an opportunity, decided to kidnap River and re-educate her, and placed her at the same point in time they were supposed to get married in order to kill him. The Silence re-wrote their time together and turned it into the narrative we are shown in the show. I kinda like this reading and it neatly ties up a lot of threads. And I feel it makes the River-Doctor relationship even better, giving her even more agency in their love story, and making her even more of a badass through her choice to not become an assassin, even if in the version of events we are witnessing, she does not start off in love with the Doctor.
I kind of like the whole Madame Kovarian thing... in retrospect. I think it's mentioned in Time of the Doctor that Kovarian took a load of the silence and created something of a rogue cell, still intent on taking down The Doctor but going to more extreme methods of beating him. The idea that Kovarian was already a bit messed up and effectively used the justification of "the greater good" to commit Evil deeds is an interesting idea that just wasn't explored as well as it should've been. But from what you see of her in Series 6, the character is a mess.
I actually really like the super complicated lore behind the church of the Silence and Madame Kovarian and everything. But it does require you to do a lot of research to fully understand it, and I get how all that isn't for everyone.
@@WiloPolis03 even if you do research it... it does not work in the actual show because its explained in basically a throw away line several episode after this plot line is already done. Also why would genetic priests or whatever need to be able to shoot lightning? oO Why did they claim to influence the human race since its inception? (also get in line silence... youre the 3rd? 4th? species/person thats claimed to have done that in DW. I wonder if they take turns or something. Its the problem Moffats run had with "set pieces". Aka a "cool" looking scene (like the snake guy from Magicians apprentice visting all these locations we know so fans can go: Uhh! I know that! wow!) instead of focusing on the actual interesting bit of the premise (like the doctor meeting a young Davros in that same episode - totally sidelined... oO)
This is the episode which started my gradual break with Moffats's run on the Doctor: it felt like an attempt to stitch together a bunch of disconnected set pieces and characters culminating in Moffat making River in to a teenager throwing a tantrum and I hated it... Then he had to go and ruin the God Complex (if it had been an actual goodbye this would have been my favourite companion send off) by bringing Rory and Amy back on as companions and then come up with 3 different versions of the same character and chosing the least interesting version as a companion... Watching season 7 became a chore and I simply did not bother with 8.
I know this is probably a bad episode to make this controversial claim on, but I think that overall, the Moffat Era was the best Era for modern Doctor Who.
Overall is a tough sell because the whole point about Moffat is that he's better at individual plots and not extended season arcs and satisfying conclusions. Which would probably be important to a "best overall" claim.
Mark Disagree with the fact that RTD is better than Moffat, although I do agree that Moffat’s last 2 series were bad. But I don’t really understand why people love RTD so much. RTD had 1 great series (series 4), 1 good series (series 1), 1 average series (series 3), 1 bad series (series 2). Whereas Moffat had 2 great series (series 5+7), 2 good series (series 6 + 8), 1 average series that would’ve been one of the best if the finale wasn’t so shit (series 9) and 1 bad series (series 10). So overall Moffat was better than RTD.
I get it that this is a complicated, convoluted episode but I love it! In fact, I had just rewatched it the day this video was posted! I do agree that there is so much going on that it should have been given two episodes. I love the whole River Song storyline.
Man, I know its bad but I always found series 6 SO ENTERTAINING. The whole arch is messy but the ride is what its about, the conclusions just that last piece of the puzzle that you jammed in there cause it doesn't fit...but like its a damn fun ride and the last piece is fun. Just poorly thought out.
I actually really liked this episode the first time I saw it, mostly because I will forever love Alex Kingston and found the conclusion very satisfying. But upon re-watching it years later with my partner, I realized I had forgotten 5/6 of the content they crammed into it, and that most of it really hadn't worked. I do like the Amy/Rory stuff in the middle also. But neither is enough to save this as a whole episode. :(
I know it's not the smartest episode, but I always enjoy the heck out of this episode. I love the all of time happening at once world, everyone is bringing their A game, the big moments are big and emotional, and yeah it just works for me. Oh, and one thing I absolutely love, is the idea of River coming home and Amy having a bottle of wine ready.
I think one other conceptional reason for why they used River in that suit is that they knew, at that point in time she would be someone, the Doctor would let close enough to him so that she could shoot him. Which didn´t turn out to be relevant, because the Doctor seemed to would have let it happen, no matter who it would be. But from Kovarian´s standpoint, I think, that was always kind of the idea. Which helped me tolerate it a bit easier....
The problem was time all happening at once is that for the vast majority of time the earth was uninhabitable. It was molten lava for a billion years, there was no oxygen in the air for another billion years after that. And yet humans are surviving quite well.
pssst your trying to make the basic premise of the episode the focus! That would be... ya know... interesting! Lets focus on smoochie smoochie plot... far more suited for sci-fi after all. :D
@@Ragnarok345 - I'd say on par, except for Fear Her being worse. Army of Ghosts and Doomsday are IMO a fun watch, as pure spectacle, but still not very good. That's the status quo of Who as schlocky melodrama. Obviously I couldn't have been watching it since as a kid in the 70s if I didn't have a taste for that pulpy nonsense side as well. But I prefer when they put the extra thought and effort into it.
As much as this one does have a lot going on, I still enjoy it quite a bit. The resolution is a tad messy but I think it does a serviceable job at concluding the series and has some really good moments.
It’s a shame Kovarian never came back in 11’s last story, would’ve been nice to see her and Tasha Lemm. I find it odd how the Silents just kinda- go afterwards... and I’ve never thought that about Kovarian. Tbh the whole crack in time storyline started off great and got wayyy to convuleted and confusing with the added stuff of impossible Clara and everything else. I feel like Moffat really didn’t know what he was doing a times with that particular thread. If you look at RTD’s themes it all worked and linked rather well. I just hope the current theme ever got in 13’s era doesn’t get way over the top, as it’s refreshing to see less confusion...
hehe ;) Well they couldnt give him an "evil" mustache after all, he already had one :D Damn... I love Inferno... a bit to long, sure. Blue Werewolves, sure... but nonetheless: Good stuff. Pertwee is on fire in that episode. (no pun intended)
I agree with your comments on this episode 100%. The only thing that lifts it up a bit, for me, is Amy's comment to Madame Covarian. That plays even better in retrospect when you think about the first trip Amy took with the doctor you could draw the conclusion that Amy might be holding back her darker side to continue her trip with the Doctor. (I don't think it was planed but it would be nice to think it was)
The only reason I can see for the River and the suit that makes sense is a very small blink and you miss it explanation from Day of the Moon. When they were analyzing the the suit that Young Melody forced her way out they noted that the suit was controlling her vitals including her breathing. The suit was probably set up so that if she didn’t kill the Doctor the suit would kill her, but since River cares more about the Doctor then herself at this point, they likely changed it to a hostage situation where the Doctor has no choice, but to let River shoot him. Where the paradox comes in is the fact that River sacrificing herself by not killing the Doctor is not possible because the Doctor has all ready seen her die in the Library.
Wrong. So wrong it's brewing over with wrongability. Love it, great idea and a roller coaster of an episode. Never bored for a minute and while the death is a cheat it wasn't the expected cheat (assumed the rebel flesh would play a part) loved time all at once and the tardis team are fantastic with the silence still being menacing. I will grant you a two parter might have been better but I'm OK with what we had. River was great. Amy was superb and Rory was also awesome. Why it had to be River was the time loop thing, that and it was the only thing that would let his guard down with someone stronger enough (ie psycho) to take him down. Yeah it had issues and it's sloppy around the edges but I never cared then and I still don't care now after watching it a few weeks ago. I don't get why people hate on this episode and this series in general. My favourite series I think... Capaldi may be up there but yeah 6 is my fave series.
The concept is great in theory. Time all at once etc... shame the episode does not care beyond going: Uh! Look how wacky it all is! Isnt it interesting? Anyway... lets focus on the romance aspect... THATS what sci-fi is all about after all... right?
Keep in mind that the Silence did at one point destroy all of time and space, just so the Timelords wouldn't come back. In their opinion, the universe not existing at all would be better than go through another Time War. That's pretty fucked up.
So what happened to the Silence group after this? All of this episode was a distorted timeline so they are still alive and out there but we never hear of them until Time of the Doctor and considering the chronicle order of thing (this happens before/During S6Ep1) the last we see of them is A good man goes to war (and Closing time) Why did they stop trying to kill 11 they still had decades of time to kill him, you can say they think it worked (but can’t they see the future didn’t change)
I think Madame Kovarian’s spitefulness could’ve been well done if she had a backstory which led her to join The Silence. Like if her planet was destroyed and the Doctor didn’t save it as it was a fixed point in time, so she wanted him dead but desired an “ordered” way to do it.
Steven set himself up for failure when he introduced so many plot points. I like all of them. Any one would have been a good enough plot thread. But he insisted on doing them all. I'd have gotten rid of Amy's pregnancy, Amy being a Ganger and the girl regenerating. Episode 6 tells us River kills the Doctor and the Silence made her into a child weapon, and Episode 12 tells us how the Doctor survives (I'd have the fire turn out to be what's left of his regeneration energy).
It's being asked by Gallifrey. The Silence wants no one to answer the question - "Silence Must Fall" - so Gallifrey won't come through its pocket dimension and destroy the Universe.
It's being asked by Gallifrey. The Silence wants no one to answer the question - "Silence Must Fall" - so Gallifrey won't come through its pocket dimension and destroy the Universe.
@@dante6985 on paper thats actually an amazing plot idea that also makes sense... its NOT the Doctor being super important just for the sake of making him mysterious... its a simple question from the Timelords currently outside of time trying to confirm if its safe to return and who they are talking to - so he would have to use his "real" name. But it still makes for a compelling mystery in the build up even if the whole thing is simple. Honest to god: Thats pretty neat! HOWEVER... the execution of this idea was ... not good. Not being helped that it was all solved in a Christmas episode ... with needless Christmas themed sets and waaaaaay to much happening in such a short time including a (sadly typical new who) lengthy overdone regeneration scene. Such a shame :(
@@dante6985 Oh yeah. I forgot about Time of the Doctor. I don't know how I did, given that it answers so many questions about the 11th's run, and I just really like it as a whole. But they do say somewhere in there that the Time Lord's broadcast was going on since the start of time or something.
@@Daelyas I agree, it came off as an eleventh-hour retcon (it would help if Gallifrey wasn't put in said pocket dimension the episode directly before). But that's Moffat: amazing ideas,often-weak follow-through.
I enjoy this episode simply for the conversation between river, amy and rory at the end simply to see some of their family dynamic-the character stuff in this episode is great, the story is just messy
I mostly agree with you on this (though I had called how the Doctor avoided actually getting dead, so I can't complain too much about that), but beyond that, what's going on with Madame Kovarian and the Silence don't make any sense in the context of the events of what we learn in The Time of the Doctor. I'll save may explanation until we get to that one.
speaking of The Question, I like the metatextual idea of trying to incorporate the question "Doctor Who?" into the story in some way - however, I feel like it should've been something akin to the Doctor's villains, either specific entities or multiple, doesn't really matter, all coming together with the realization that they don't know who he is, and getting in his way to answer that question. The idea of it being The Most Important Question(tm) is a bit absurd, even if it *is* the name of the show it exists in.
I agree with everything you said there & think it would have been better stretched out to 3 episodes. Yet in my opinion,with all that in mind, it was also still quite an enjoyable episode to watch.
Yeh this is a weaker finale unfortunately but I definitely feel would have done better as a two parter. But even with this it's still doesn't stop me rating series 6 as my favourite series I also wonder and yet to find anymore on this if some of the ideas were going to come up during season 7 but with Sherlock and split season Karen and Arthur leaving ideas changed and then the 50th began taking priority it seemed to push the plans s6 set up to side until Time of the Doctor maybe if Matt did s8 it might be different too
It was the betrayal of the audience that inflamed me about this one and indeed the whole of season 6. The audience as well as the companions having been told at the start of the season that it was not an android or duplicate, that it was'definitely the Doctor and he is definitely dead', I was expecting a far more clever and ingenious denouement than 'Oh it was an android after all and we've been lying to you all season' .
Spot on! I enjoy this one and LKH despite/because they are overambitious. I find them both to be entertaining trainwrecks. You nailed my main two problems with it: 1. the Teselecta seems like pure plot contrivance 2. Madame Kovarian had way too much build-up for being a pantomime non-character
About the "River can't stop the suit from killing the Doctor" thing, maybe it's the web of time aka "this must happen" trick explanation again? But there's another thing - how can she be imprisoned for sth she has no control over then? In addition to that, the Doctor doesn't even die so... what??? This turn of events really doesn't tie up the setup well.
I don't think this episode is bad on its own, but it feels like they worked on finishing off River and Kovarians' arc, and then completely forgot about the Doctor dying and edited together an explanation in the last 30 seconds. So it's not the worst finale, but it's one of the most frustrating ones for sure.
Don’t know why, but I don’t fault this one too much. Overly ambitious, yes, but I admire that Moffat went for it even if it was very messy. Series 11 in contrast, had no direction, which is why I’m glad that series 12 is seeing the return of that ambition. And the moment when Amy does away with Kovarian? Loved it. Messy episode, yes, but it had its moments for me.
Reactions to something longer than a few minutes (i.e. trailers) are a pain in the ass to edit. It’s one of those things that if this was my full time job I could maybe pull off but I just can’t slot in the work load.
It was a very messy finale. I like that mixing of time, amy and rory... but i really didn't like the Teselecta as a cop out, and even if back in the day i was intrigued by that "Doctor... who?" in hindsight it was quite underwhelming too, and very cheap.
Let's be honest, as cool as the shots of the past colliding with the present are, they are not worth it for the amount of budget they ate up. Before this episode, we had four consecutive low-budget episodes. Most of Night Terrors happens within a single council flat. The Girl Who Waited is all minimalist white corridors and doesn't feature any characters beyond the Doctor and his companions. The God Complex tales place entirely within a single hotel and its monster mostly stays offscreen. And Closing Time splits its time between a regular house and a shop, and reuses old assets in the form of Cybermen (particularly the ones with visible brains from The Next Doctor). These aren't terrible episodes (I especially love The Girl Who Waited) and I don't mean to criticise the writers, but the cumulative effect is that the second half of series six feels a bit lacking in impetus and like it's going through the motions. It could have done with more scale, but it seems like so much was splurged on The Wedding of River Song that they didn't have the cash for it. And it's not even like the final episode pays off by giving us a satisfyingly epic story. It's pretty much 45 minutes of tying up loose ends. Still, "texting and scones". That's a good line. (Even bad Moffat episodes have some standout dialogue.)
I find it funny that it's not the logistics about how the Doctor got big, just the idea that you dislike. Meanwhile it's not the idea that he gets small again but the logistics that I dislike. XD
I also felt that the pacing was terrible. A lot of cool ideas, and some fun moments, but so many things needed a lot more time to be fleshed out. Should have been a two part episode.
This episode made me so salty when I first watched it! I mean, I already knew what was going to happen, and thanks to how much hype they put into the "how" River learned the Doctor's name ever since the library episode, the fact this happened OFF-SCREEN, and how disjointed this episode felt, it just made me wonder why I even bothered in the first place
Im on board with Smiths throwaway line "I thought I must have left the stove on or something" (cant remember the exact line tbh) some episode later... its a better explanation than the show would have given IF it had properly been explained I wager ;)
@@theshadowdirector it sounded just like the shapeshifter alien from the eleventh hour... but that would not make sense... was it just a memory in his head... did someone actually talk? It didnt sound like a "Silence" nor "Eyepatch lady"... so yeah... your guess is as good as mine :D
I really feel like this should have been a two parter in itself, let’s face it, Closing time was ok but overall unnecessary and then to start with as confusing an idea as time breaking and everything happening at the same time... or at least parts of time happening in places it shouldn’t because let’s face it, the world would be horrific if it did not somehow functional. Who knows maybe this would have worked with only one episode but the way it’s been put together it really doesn’t.
Moffat, the great individual episode writer, but the terrible show-runner. His series arcs were a mess that lead to a decline in the quality of the series finale when he took over from Russel T Davies.
To be honest I mostly agree, but I'd put it more succintly... Amy was the only really good part of this episode :D The rest was kinda "meh". The Doctor saying he told River his name opens up another weird can of worms 'cause in Silence In The Library, River knew his name... but we never got to see the scene where he told her that, we just got to see a weird fake-out false version.
There's a midpoint to this episode that you can just tell is what Moffat originally planned as the cliffhanger to a two parter - it's so frustrating that instead of this being a 2 part finale we got Closing Time instead, which is probably the worst episode of Doctor Who in my opinion. I also think the silence used River as a scapegoat in the suit - but yeah it doesn't work :(
Moffat at his very worst megalomaniac nonsensical rubbish. As just a writer if someone else was the showrunner and Moffat came to them with at least 80% of his ideas he would've been laughed out. As the showrunner he got away with this kind of crap.
Also time happening all at once is one of the dumbest things that ever happened in Doctor Who. Just the idea of Churchill coming back home on a mammoth or whatever destroys any sospension of disbelief I could ever hope to have for this episode. It's just too stupid. Too quirky. Too much.
Well not exactly a full on fixed point in the whole of time, just Rose’s history. As far as I can tell going by the reaction of the timeline in this episode.
Am I the only one who wanted Kovarian to come back after this? She should have at least been in Time of the Doctor. I think her spitefulness works towards the Doctor works as I got the impression she hates him because of the war on Trenzalore- that should have explored that more.
I still dont understand why the wedding part even happened. I love river song as a character and the concept that they dont meet in order. But so much of the plot surrounding her character makes no sense. Its really disappointing.
The teasing of finding out the doctor's name always annoyed me, it's not something I want or need to know and it's obvious they'll never actually tell us so please stop pretending.
This is one of the worst episode in modern Who in my opinion. I'd say it's the worst season finale of the revival. Worst even compared to Hell Bent for me. Yeah.
Honestly to this day I'm confused on the "point" or message or even just plot of this episode like.. man it had some good ideas but what a yikes moment
This episode wastes so many amazing ideas Like this one episode could’ve been a densely packed season if they wanted but no instead it’s one rushed hobbled together episode
There was a period of time when this was considered the worst series finale of Modern Who, and for a long time, I actually kind of agreed with that... but then 'The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos' came along.
really? This and Hell Bent was far worse... mainly for f-ing with "important" lore elements etc... Battle of Ranskoor was just another stand alone episode for me... not great or anything but I wasnt actively annoyed. Hell Bent however... ufff.... the second of only 2 episodes in the ENTIRE history of the show that I actually "loath".
@@Daelyas Series 9 is my fav series of Modern Who, and while 'Hell Bent' had its problems, there were, at least for me, plenty of moments that made it feel like the ending of a story.
@@ryanpollard1166 Like what? Im not trying to be mean here but pretty much not a single scene/moment worked for me. Lets go through it: - Right at the start Clara shows up again... I was immediately bummed out. And I dont even "hate" her character with a passion as some do. It just got bungled as all hell over time. (Mainly Jennas "fault" for leaving the show then not then leaving then not etc... uff!) The amount of sorrowful goodbye scenes she had was insane... and Hell Bent wasnt even the last time :D Its ridiculous. - The Doctor once again being this "Messiah" like figure... cant stand that unless its "small scale" (like in the Pompeii episode where ONE family later considers him and Donna "Gods". - Ashilda (or however you spell it) just comes off as a smug, bratty character lecturing a several thousand year old and significantly wiser person than she ever will be on philosophy 101. Also how the hell did a piece of tech from a relatively low level species (whatever their name was... Mire? Maya?) make some one able to live BILLIONS of years? I can accept a few hundred... thats about it. She is also "just" immortal in the sense of not aging. She can be wounded, right? So she lived through billions of years without getting killed in wars, disasters, accidents etc? Really? I mean Jack was made immortal due to TIMELORD tech... and he ages into a giant face in only a few million years... what gives? -Why the hell is the Sisterhood of Karn on Gallifrey? And why do the Timelords listen to them? I thought they basically cant stand and ignore each other... whatever... minor complaint that one. -Pointless cameo monsters once again... Oh! Look! A weeping angel! Does it actually do anything?... uhm... nope. Moving on. -Rassilons WORST appearance to date... From Godlike founder of a super advanced society to grumbling old man... EPIC! oO -What was the point of going back to Gallifrey at all if the plot just gives up caring half way through to focus ONCE AGAIN on Clara and another "goodbye" scene... (Then again any Time Lord story since the 70s has been mostly disappointing - they are far better left off screen) -No consequence death once again... even the memory wipe is of no consequence since it gets undone one season later... -Neither Ashilda nor Clara should be able to fly a Tardis at all... even if you discount "The 2 Doctors" explanation of the symbiotic nucleus needed for it to even work safely. -The freaking barn again... its a BARN!!!! Its nothing special... ALL OF TIME AND SPACE is possible... lets film in a barn... it will be glorious! What did I like in Hell Bent? Uhm... it looked good? The acting (with the exception of "Asilda= smug brat" and "Rassilon = grumpy grandpa) was good as usual... and... thats about it.
River was in the suit to torture her for not killing the Doctor in Let's kill hitler. Hence in last episode they said "did you think we wouldn't find you again" which is after she escaped them even though she failed what they wanted. Basically it was her punishment for falling in love with him
Well they should've thought of that before they made her, y'know... fall in love with him. Next time just hire an assassin. Also if she was genetically modified to kill the Doctor, or whatever, why didn't River use any of her cool Time Lord powers? IIRC, Time Lords can steal bodies, hypnotize people, build technology out of junk, use Venusian aikido, and probably some other shit I'm forgetting. And that's all _without_ regeneration, which is apparently from another dimension or something let's not talk about it. Am I overthinking this? Probably, yeah, but I don't really get the relevance of River being part Time Lord. Can she build a TARDIS? Now there was a missed opportunity! Child of the TARDIS, growing her own TARDIS.
You more or less answer your own question regards the spacesuit and River. A bit of Who lore helps here but its too long, so the very brief version is the early universe was chaotic, the Time Lords stabilised and organised it by creating the Web of Time, but to stay stable certain things always have to happen within the Web. The Fixed points. Breaking a Fixed Point can cause the entirity of the Web to unravel and the universe to plunge into chaos, which we see represented as all of Time happening at once. Some places and moments in time, Still Points, can become Fixed Points if manipulated correctly.
The way Kovarian and co do this is to come up with a memorable story which can be 'seeded' as myth/legend and partial history - namely that the Doctor dies on Lake Silencio at the hands of an Impossible Astronaut rising from the Lake that may or not be River Song, the woman who either married or killed the Doctor or did both.
This tale is then seeded, we hear it in nursery ryhmnes, in the legends of Demons Run, in the Tessalectors records and in the archeological evidence River follows and gathers in her diary and in the legends about them she tells Twelve about at the Singing Towers. By creating that mass of legend, tales, songs, poetry and archeology it turns the moment from a Still Point in the Web of Time into a Fixed Point. And as such River has to be there, has to be in the suit, has to be part of the event and of the evidence of the event (including her conviction for the crime and prison time) for it to succesfully pass into legend and become Fixed. She is not required to operate the suit, its preprogrammed, she is simply required to be there in order to fulfill the manufactured narrative created by Kovarian to make it Fixed.
You seem to have Kovarian wrong, they are not trying to stop the Doctor destroying the universe, they are trying to stop the Doctor reaching Trenzalore, where they (Kovarian and the Silence and the entire Church) have been dragged into and involved in a seemingly endelss war (it lasts roughly one thousand years) with the Doctor and just about everyone else. That is why she is bitter and resentful and has glee to see the Doctor and anyone associated with him suffer. She has presumably seen the Church damaged, friends and collegues killed year on year, she simply hates the Doctor.
Regards The Question. Remember Dorian is from the future, from the time period of River, Kovarian, Demons Run and Trenzalore, and he was a gatherer of information. He knows why Kovarian was doing what she was doing, he knows about Trenzalore and what is coming. It is not that he is saying the Doctor is the most important person, it is more he is warning him that even if he wants to go back into the shadows Trenzalore is still going to happen to him whether he chooses it or not, as for Dorian, it already has.
Your comment definitely explained a lot of things well done 👍 The episode is still jumbled, and without this lore (especially if you're a fan that doesn't delve too deep into DW mythos) then the episode suffers
That’s a great explanation, but it doesn’t fix the problems with the writing.
What? No. None of that is correct. The doctor’s death at the lake wasn’t seeded into legend, That was the Pandorica. That was the other enemies tricking the Doctor in order to stop the tardis from exploding. The lake we actually see happen, so no there wasn’t a legend. River, Kavarian, Tessaract, Dorian are from the future, which is how they can know about the doctor’s death and why it’s fixed, they’ve seen it written and once you see it written then it’s fixed.
@@chrissmith6097 No Kovarian and co expressly go back in time to prevent the Doctor ever reaching Trenzalore, their first attempt was to do so by having River attempt to assassinate him- Lets Kill Hitler- which failed. Their second attempt was to stop him being able to get there by blowing up his TARDIS - Pandorica Opens - this failed. And their final attempt was to convert a still point into a fixed point - The Impossible Astronaut - which failed. This is openly stated in episodes. The method by which they change a Still point to a Fixed one is the memorable story of the impossible astronaut that strikes the Doctor down and has Rivers involvement, we hear of it contionually through nursery poems, stories River recounts, the Tesselector records of the event, Rivers prison record for the crime. Its not because Kovarian and co are from the future they know of his death, they are creating it - in their future the Doctor did not die at Lake Silencio, he got to Trenzalore and they are going back to change stuff to try to stop him getting there. It doesnt work because as the Doctor tells the Head of the Church you cant alter events you are already part of, you just cause them to happen.
In this case trying to stop the Doctor caused the cracks in time which let the Time Lords signal through which leads to Trenzalore, which leads to the seige which leads to a faction of the church to go back in time to stop the Doctor reaching Trenzalore, causing the cracks in time which let the Time Lords signal through which leads to Trenzalore, which leads to the seige which leads to a faction of the church to go back in time to stop the Doctor reching Trenzalore etc
@@xenon8117 In fairness to Moffat I feel he is quite consistent within his own run when it comes to Fixed Points, and its consistent with the general Who mythos concerning the Web of Time (which is directly refernced in Hell Bent when the General warns the Doctor his actions could unravel the Web of Time) he did however add to that mythos with Still Points, moments which can be manufactured into a fixed point (which given the Web itself was somehow manufactured and all the fixed points in it is fair enough as an addition).
It's the moments that salvage this one for me. That, and I am naturally inclined to forgive ambitious failure. Glorious failure beats bland success for me every time. Might be a British thing.
What I miss about Moff is that in every episode - even the ones that don't work - there's always something for me to enjoy. Amy's "River Song didn't get all of that from you" moment might just be my favourite companion moment of all time. I enjoy the idea of the Doctor fighting shoulder to shoulder with Churchill even though they have no memory of it. I'd forgotten that the moment about the Brigadier was in this episode, and I'd also forgotten that they actually made it matter to the plot. Both lovely touches.
On a purely personal level, the scene with the Roman chariot at traffic lights is set in Aldgate near my company's head office so that gives me that little frisson on excitement you get when you unexpectedly see someone you know really well on screen (and I'd like to give them points for resisting the temptation to use more familiar and therefore tired London landmarks than the Gherkin....)
I can recall watching this when it first aired and it feeling like a real game changer. I don't fault this episode for the show's failure to really follow through.
Agreed about Moffat's episodes. I find that I haven't rewatched any of Chibnall's "bad" episodes. I simply just forget about them.
With Moffats episodes that I personally find bad (Let's kill Hitler, Hell Bent etc) I still find myself rewatching them every now and then because there's so much to dissect and analyse.
I am a huge fan of the whole Moffat era. I don't really hate any of his episodes and I can watch every episode in his tenure, I don't see It being the same with chibnall (tho I like his era, especially series 12 which I'm loving.... Except orphan 55,never need to see that ever again) there's also a fair few of Davies era I struggle to rewatch.
Each to their own but yeah love Moffat era, series 7 included, (its just fun series!)
"I need to lay low for a while"
[Literally the first episode of Series 7]
"Oh, the Daleks forgot who I am? Better remind them what my name is!"
It wasn't terrible, just... confusing. When did the Doctor go inside the Tesselecta? Surely the Tesselecta in the form of the Doctor shouldn't count as the Doctor when it 'died'?
Also I think they needed River because Madame Kovarian is a b**** and wants to see the Doctor and River suffer.
Time said that the Doctor had to be there at that time in that place. The Doctor himself put it best: "So I dressed for the occasion."
If the killer were another person, the Doctor should try and stop the killer changing something - perhaps even causing his/her death. But he would not do this to a Amy's child.
@@mbarros3078 Exactly! I think one other conceptional reason for why they used River in that suit is that they knew, at that point in time she would be someone, the Doctor would let close enough to him so that she could shoot him.
Which didn´t turn out to be relevant, because the Doctor seemed to would have let it happen, no matter who it would be. But from Kovarian´s standpoint, I think, that was always kind of the idea. Which helped me tolerate it a bit easier....
Also surely the tesselecta wouldn’t be able to regenerate. Because we see the ‘doctor’ begin to and then river shoots him over and over again
@@mystic_mimi21 It's a shame really, The Impossible Astronaut is one of my favourite episodes of all time and the set-up was great, but it sort of went nowhere with this episode. I guess the Tesselecta is a Time Lord now
Another point.. I really feel like the wedding was put into this episode so that they could name the episode "The Wedding of River Song" and build some hype.
Maybe it’s a mess.... but I still love this season’s arc. 😀
Just found your channel. Really enjoying your videos.
Also, it's kind of the messiness that can make it good in a way. It makes people talk about it more.
I agree
If you love the arc, surely you hate the disgusting tessalecta cop out ending?
The robot suit was so stupid especially when earlier the same series they introduced the flesh AND said it could have survived the melting
Messing with fixed points also happened in Father's Day. And that was _something completely different_
*Moffat-* "Alright, we've wrapped up production on The Wedding of River Song! Welp, time to start writing the next sea-"
*Editor-* "Wait a minute, isn't the Doctor supposed to have died or something?*
*Moffat-* Oh fish fingers you're right... uh...
*Editor-* We just finished filming everything, what do we do!?!?
*Moffat-* Isn't the Doctor friends with a giant spaceship that can imitate other people?
*Editor-* Oh yeah, the uh... _reads notes_ Tesselecta.
*Moffat-* Let's just throw in some extra footage at the end that shows that the Doctor was, uh... the Tesselecta. Yeah.
*Editor-* Alright, I can do that.
*Moffat-* Oh wait, forgot to end it on a cliffhanger. Make the blue guy ask the Doctor's name at the end I guess. Idk, we'll figure it out later.
It's funny. I remember being totally underwhelmed when this first aired and I was only eleven years old. I find that quite telling.
This is deep Moffat fan-fiction territory here. It's episodes like these that are basically not even Doctor Who anymore.
I really liked that the oldest question in the Universe was Doctor Who, I liked it in a meta sense, that was the first thing anyone ever saw from the show, it's title. It also made sense from a lore perspective, the Doctor has been to the beginning, they've also been to the end, at least twice so it makes sense that the question would be splattered across time, and be considered to be the oldest question ever
I agree with your thoughts on Madame Covarian. A whole season developing a character who feels she has to kill the doctor for the greater good, but really doesn't want to would have been so interesting and complex. Instead we got Doctor Evil 2.0.
More like Snidely Whiplash - Doctor Evil had a lot more character!
I really have to go through all these uploads again and actually remember to click "like".
We dont agree on everything obviously (that would be weird after all :D) but I gotta say I really like your style and the fact that you dont deal in absolutes like many other people reviewing on the internet do. DW or otherwise.
Hat off to you sir! ;)
Me too man I keep going back thru to make sure I liked the videos I've seen lol been doing a lot of rewatchin
The fixed point is the Doctor giving his life to River. It's a play upon words. She takes it or.. he gives it away willingly through marriage. In my headcannon, originally River and the Doctor were supposed to get married, so the Silence took that fixed point in time as an opportunity, decided to kidnap River and re-educate her, and placed her at the same point in time they were supposed to get married in order to kill him. The Silence re-wrote their time together and turned it into the narrative we are shown in the show. I kinda like this reading and it neatly ties up a lot of threads. And I feel it makes the River-Doctor relationship even better, giving her even more agency in their love story, and making her even more of a badass through her choice to not become an assassin, even if in the version of events we are witnessing, she does not start off in love with the Doctor.
I kind of like the whole Madame Kovarian thing... in retrospect.
I think it's mentioned in Time of the Doctor that Kovarian took a load of the silence and created something of a rogue cell, still intent on taking down The Doctor but going to more extreme methods of beating him. The idea that Kovarian was already a bit messed up and effectively used the justification of "the greater good" to commit Evil deeds is an interesting idea that just wasn't explored as well as it should've been.
But from what you see of her in Series 6, the character is a mess.
I actually really like the super complicated lore behind the church of the Silence and Madame Kovarian and everything. But it does require you to do a lot of research to fully understand it, and I get how all that isn't for everyone.
@@WiloPolis03 even if you do research it... it does not work in the actual show because its explained in basically a throw away line several episode after this plot line is already done.
Also why would genetic priests or whatever need to be able to shoot lightning? oO
Why did they claim to influence the human race since its inception? (also get in line silence... youre the 3rd? 4th? species/person thats claimed to have done that in DW. I wonder if they take turns or something.
Its the problem Moffats run had with "set pieces". Aka a "cool" looking scene (like the snake guy from Magicians apprentice visting all these locations we know so fans can go: Uhh! I know that! wow!) instead of focusing on the actual interesting bit of the premise (like the doctor meeting a young Davros in that same episode - totally sidelined... oO)
This is the episode which started my gradual break with Moffats's run on the Doctor: it felt like an attempt to stitch together a bunch of disconnected set pieces and characters culminating in Moffat making River in to a teenager throwing a tantrum and I hated it...
Then he had to go and ruin the God Complex (if it had been an actual goodbye this would have been my favourite companion send off) by bringing Rory and Amy back on as companions and then come up with 3 different versions of the same character and chosing the least interesting version as a companion...
Watching season 7 became a chore and I simply did not bother with 8.
I know this is probably a bad episode to make this controversial claim on, but I think that overall, the Moffat Era was the best Era for modern Doctor Who.
Nope.
Sarvis The Buck Agreed.
Overall is a tough sell because the whole point about Moffat is that he's better at individual plots and not extended season arcs and satisfying conclusions. Which would probably be important to a "best overall" claim.
RTD era was better moffat started great with series 5 which was awesome but his last few series with capaldi was the worst so far
Mark
Disagree with the fact that RTD is better than Moffat, although I do agree that Moffat’s last 2 series were bad. But I don’t really understand why people love RTD so much. RTD had 1 great series (series 4), 1 good series (series 1), 1 average series (series 3), 1 bad series (series 2). Whereas Moffat had 2 great series (series 5+7), 2 good series (series 6 + 8), 1 average series that would’ve been one of the best if the finale wasn’t so shit (series 9) and 1 bad series (series 10). So overall Moffat was better than RTD.
3:46 - I understood it like "If it was somebody the Doctor doesn't know, he wouldn't have a problem with defeating that person, so let's use her"
I get it that this is a complicated, convoluted episode but I love it! In fact, I had just rewatched it the day this video was posted! I do agree that there is so much going on that it should have been given two episodes. I love the whole River Song storyline.
Man, I know its bad but I always found series 6 SO ENTERTAINING. The whole arch is messy but the ride is what its about, the conclusions just that last piece of the puzzle that you jammed in there cause it doesn't fit...but like its a damn fun ride and the last piece is fun. Just poorly thought out.
I actually really liked this episode the first time I saw it, mostly because I will forever love Alex Kingston and found the conclusion very satisfying. But upon re-watching it years later with my partner, I realized I had forgotten 5/6 of the content they crammed into it, and that most of it really hadn't worked. I do like the Amy/Rory stuff in the middle also. But neither is enough to save this as a whole episode. :(
I know it's not the smartest episode, but I always enjoy the heck out of this episode. I love the all of time happening at once world, everyone is bringing their A game, the big moments are big and emotional, and yeah it just works for me.
Oh, and one thing I absolutely love, is the idea of River coming home and Amy having a bottle of wine ready.
I think one other conceptional reason for why they used River in that suit is that they knew, at that point in time she would be someone, the Doctor would let close enough to him so that she could shoot him.
Which didn´t turn out to be relevant, because the Doctor seemed to would have let it happen, no matter who it would be. But from Kovarian´s standpoint, I think, that was always kind of the idea. Which helped me tolerate it a bit easier....
The problem was time all happening at once is that for the vast majority of time the earth was uninhabitable. It was molten lava for a billion years, there was no oxygen in the air for another billion years after that. And yet humans are surviving quite well.
pssst your trying to make the basic premise of the episode the focus! That would be... ya know... interesting! Lets focus on smoochie smoochie plot... far more suited for sci-fi after all. :D
Ah, yes, this is an episode that exists.
What's that? It's a finale? Oh no.
NuWho finales have often been the worst episodes of the season, IMO. Seasons 5 and 10 have been the only exceptions.
@@Ragnarok345 - I'd say on par, except for Fear Her being worse. Army of Ghosts and Doomsday are IMO a fun watch, as pure spectacle, but still not very good. That's the status quo of Who as schlocky melodrama. Obviously I couldn't have been watching it since as a kid in the 70s if I didn't have a taste for that pulpy nonsense side as well. But I prefer when they put the extra thought and effort into it.
Popo Bawa Yeah I disagree with everything you said.
Love it or hate it, this is the episode that got me into Doctor Who
As much as this one does have a lot going on, I still enjoy it quite a bit. The resolution is a tad messy but I think it does a serviceable job at concluding the series and has some really good moments.
It’s a shame Kovarian never came back in 11’s last story, would’ve been nice to see her and Tasha Lemm. I find it odd how the Silents just kinda- go afterwards... and I’ve never thought that about Kovarian. Tbh the whole crack in time storyline started off great and got wayyy to convuleted and confusing with the added stuff of impossible Clara and everything else. I feel like Moffat really didn’t know what he was doing a times with that particular thread. If you look at RTD’s themes it all worked and linked rather well. I just hope the current theme ever got in 13’s era doesn’t get way over the top, as it’s refreshing to see less confusion...
Xenon yes I know but it was all at the same time and she was partly involved when it came to Trenzalore etc.
They wanted River in the suit so other people wouldn't shoot her.
The eye patches were an homage to when the evil Brigadier wore one in Inferno
hehe ;) Well they couldnt give him an "evil" mustache after all, he already had one :D
Damn... I love Inferno... a bit to long, sure. Blue Werewolves, sure... but nonetheless: Good stuff. Pertwee is on fire in that episode. (no pun intended)
@@Daelyas One of Who's darkest endings ever, too.
I agree with your comments on this episode 100%. The only thing that lifts it up a bit, for me, is Amy's comment to Madame Covarian. That plays even better in retrospect when you think about the first trip Amy took with the doctor you could draw the conclusion that Amy might be holding back her darker side to continue her trip with the Doctor. (I don't think it was planed but it would be nice to think it was)
The only reason I can see for the River and the suit that makes sense is a very small blink and you miss it explanation from Day of the Moon. When they were analyzing the the suit that Young Melody forced her way out they noted that the suit was controlling her vitals including her breathing. The suit was probably set up so that if she didn’t kill the Doctor the suit would kill her, but since River cares more about the Doctor then herself at this point, they likely changed it to a hostage situation where the Doctor has no choice, but to let River shoot him. Where the paradox comes in is the fact that River sacrificing herself by not killing the Doctor is not possible because the Doctor has all ready seen her die in the Library.
Good point.
Wrong. So wrong it's brewing over with wrongability.
Love it, great idea and a roller coaster of an episode. Never bored for a minute and while the death is a cheat it wasn't the expected cheat (assumed the rebel flesh would play a part) loved time all at once and the tardis team are fantastic with the silence still being menacing.
I will grant you a two parter might have been better but I'm OK with what we had.
River was great. Amy was superb and Rory was also awesome. Why it had to be River was the time loop thing, that and it was the only thing that would let his guard down with someone stronger enough (ie psycho) to take him down.
Yeah it had issues and it's sloppy around the edges but I never cared then and I still don't care now after watching it a few weeks ago.
I don't get why people hate on this episode and this series in general. My favourite series I think... Capaldi may be up there but yeah 6 is my fave series.
*Several people are typing*
The concept is great in theory. Time all at once etc... shame the episode does not care beyond going: Uh! Look how wacky it all is! Isnt it interesting? Anyway... lets focus on the romance aspect... THATS what sci-fi is all about after all... right?
I assume they need River because the Doctor could find a way to destroy the suit on its own, but he loves River and doesn’t want to hurt her. *shrug*
This was the episode that made me me go "oh I get it now" as it relates to what people thought about the Matt Smith era.
Keep in mind that the Silence did at one point destroy all of time and space, just so the Timelords wouldn't come back. In their opinion, the universe not existing at all would be better than go through another Time War.
That's pretty fucked up.
Right... another one of the "oh yeah this episode happened" episodes.
So what happened to the Silence group after this? All of this episode was a distorted timeline so they are still alive and out there but we never hear of them until Time of the Doctor and considering the chronicle order of thing (this happens before/During S6Ep1) the last we see of them is A good man goes to war (and Closing time)
Why did they stop trying to kill 11 they still had decades of time to kill him, you can say they think it worked (but can’t they see the future didn’t change)
I think Madame Kovarian’s spitefulness could’ve been well done if she had a backstory which led her to join The Silence. Like if her planet was destroyed and the Doctor didn’t save it as it was a fixed point in time, so she wanted him dead but desired an “ordered” way to do it.
Steven set himself up for failure when he introduced so many plot points. I like all of them. Any one would have been a good enough plot thread. But he insisted on doing them all.
I'd have gotten rid of Amy's pregnancy, Amy being a Ganger and the girl regenerating. Episode 6 tells us River kills the Doctor and the Silence made her into a child weapon, and Episode 12 tells us how the Doctor survives (I'd have the fire turn out to be what's left of his regeneration energy).
Never noticed how confused this episode was. A bit sad that this is the end of such a great arc.
To this day I'm still trying to wrap my head around this episode
I love this mess. Its weird and kinda dumb and just plain nuts but I absolutely love it. Its absolutely to much but I really enjoy watching it.
Can you do new Master ranking video with Sacha Dhawan and maybe big finish Masters?
I think the suit is genetically linked to River. That may have been mentioned at the beginning of the season.
I've always read "Doctor who?" as the first question asked by The Silence.
It's being asked by Gallifrey. The Silence wants no one to answer the question - "Silence Must Fall" - so Gallifrey won't come through its pocket dimension and destroy the Universe.
It's being asked by Gallifrey. The Silence wants no one to answer the question - "Silence Must Fall" - so Gallifrey won't come through its pocket dimension and destroy the Universe.
@@dante6985 on paper thats actually an amazing plot idea that also makes sense... its NOT the Doctor being super important just for the sake of making him mysterious... its a simple question from the Timelords currently outside of time trying to confirm if its safe to return and who they are talking to - so he would have to use his "real" name. But it still makes for a compelling mystery in the build up even if the whole thing is simple. Honest to god: Thats pretty neat!
HOWEVER... the execution of this idea was ... not good. Not being helped that it was all solved in a Christmas episode ... with needless Christmas themed sets and waaaaaay to much happening in such a short time including a (sadly typical new who) lengthy overdone regeneration scene.
Such a shame :(
@@dante6985 Oh yeah. I forgot about Time of the Doctor. I don't know how I did, given that it answers so many questions about the 11th's run, and I just really like it as a whole. But they do say somewhere in there that the Time Lord's broadcast was going on since the start of time or something.
@@Daelyas I agree, it came off as an eleventh-hour retcon (it would help if Gallifrey wasn't put in said pocket dimension the episode directly before). But that's Moffat: amazing ideas,often-weak follow-through.
They explored changing a fixed point in Father's Day.
I enjoy this episode simply for the conversation between river, amy and rory at the end simply to see some of their family dynamic-the character stuff in this episode is great, the story is just messy
In the original version in the first episode we see the Doctor begin to regenerate and get shot again. As the Tesselecta it breaks that entire scene.
I ABSOLUTLY LOVE THIS!!!
I mostly agree with you on this (though I had called how the Doctor avoided actually getting dead, so I can't complain too much about that), but beyond that, what's going on with Madame Kovarian and the Silence don't make any sense in the context of the events of what we learn in The Time of the Doctor. I'll save may explanation until we get to that one.
speaking of The Question, I like the metatextual idea of trying to incorporate the question "Doctor Who?" into the story in some way - however, I feel like it should've been something akin to the Doctor's villains, either specific entities or multiple, doesn't really matter, all coming together with the realization that they don't know who he is, and getting in his way to answer that question. The idea of it being The Most Important Question(tm) is a bit absurd, even if it *is* the name of the show it exists in.
I agree with everything you said there & think it would have been better stretched out to 3 episodes. Yet in my opinion,with all that in mind, it was also still quite an enjoyable episode to watch.
Yeh this is a weaker finale unfortunately but I definitely feel would have done better as a two parter. But even with this it's still doesn't stop me rating series 6 as my favourite series
I also wonder and yet to find anymore on this if some of the ideas were going to come up during season 7 but with Sherlock and split season Karen and Arthur leaving ideas changed and then the 50th began taking priority it seemed to push the plans s6 set up to side until Time of the Doctor maybe if Matt did s8 it might be different too
I apologize for the unrelated question but do you think you’ll ever do a series finale or overall series review for The Good Place?
So what happened to the question of ‘Doctor Who’?
Allen M watch Time of the Doctor
It was the betrayal of the audience that inflamed me about this one and indeed the whole of season 6. The audience as well as the companions having been told at the start of the season that it was not an android or duplicate, that it was'definitely the Doctor and he is definitely dead', I was expecting a far more clever and ingenious denouement than 'Oh it was an android after all and we've been lying to you all season' .
Its totally mad and doesn't make much sense but I love it, it's peak moffat
Spot on! I enjoy this one and LKH despite/because they are overambitious. I find them both to be entertaining trainwrecks. You nailed my main two problems with it:
1. the Teselecta seems like pure plot contrivance
2. Madame Kovarian had way too much build-up for being a pantomime non-character
Not a perfect resolution but I actually quite like this episode
About the "River can't stop the suit from killing the Doctor" thing, maybe it's the web of time aka "this must happen" trick explanation again? But there's another thing - how can she be imprisoned for sth she has no control over then? In addition to that, the Doctor doesn't even die so... what??? This turn of events really doesn't tie up the setup well.
11:19 have you read The Day of the Doctor novel? Steven's obsessed with teasing, and it's really not as clever as he thinks.
Oh this episode is a hot mess, but I'm 100% here for it.
I think the value of her, although you could put other people the doctor cares about into this, is that he won't be able harm/stop her.
I don't think this episode is bad on its own, but it feels like they worked on finishing off River and Kovarians' arc, and then completely forgot about the Doctor dying and edited together an explanation in the last 30 seconds.
So it's not the worst finale, but it's one of the most frustrating ones for sure.
Don’t know why, but I don’t fault this one too much. Overly ambitious, yes, but I admire that Moffat went for it even if it was very messy. Series 11 in contrast, had no direction, which is why I’m glad that series 12 is seeing the return of that ambition. And the moment when Amy does away with Kovarian? Loved it. Messy episode, yes, but it had its moments for me.
It would b good seeing your rewatch/reaction to episodes you know you love or hate!
Reactions to something longer than a few minutes (i.e. trailers) are a pain in the ass to edit. It’s one of those things that if this was my full time job I could maybe pull off but I just can’t slot in the work load.
Council of Geeks yh fair enough! Any more classic who reviews coming up? Been a while since the last one
Show us the dog. SHOW US THE DOG
It was a very messy finale. I like that mixing of time, amy and rory... but i really didn't like the Teselecta as a cop out, and even if back in the day i was intrigued by that "Doctor... who?" in hindsight it was quite underwhelming too, and very cheap.
"It just feels mechanical" 😂
Let's be honest, as cool as the shots of the past colliding with the present are, they are not worth it for the amount of budget they ate up.
Before this episode, we had four consecutive low-budget episodes. Most of Night Terrors happens within a single council flat. The Girl Who Waited is all minimalist white corridors and doesn't feature any characters beyond the Doctor and his companions. The God Complex tales place entirely within a single hotel and its monster mostly stays offscreen. And Closing Time splits its time between a regular house and a shop, and reuses old assets in the form of Cybermen (particularly the ones with visible brains from The Next Doctor).
These aren't terrible episodes (I especially love The Girl Who Waited) and I don't mean to criticise the writers, but the cumulative effect is that the second half of series six feels a bit lacking in impetus and like it's going through the motions. It could have done with more scale, but it seems like so much was splurged on The Wedding of River Song that they didn't have the cash for it. And it's not even like the final episode pays off by giving us a satisfyingly epic story. It's pretty much 45 minutes of tying up loose ends.
Still, "texting and scones". That's a good line. (Even bad Moffat episodes have some standout dialogue.)
I think they explored the concept of messing with fixed points in time in Father's Day, but...yeah. Father's Day.
An episode I infinitely prefer to this one for having actual CONSEQUENCES... :D
Father's Day is actually good, Wedding isn't.
I find it funny that it's not the logistics about how the Doctor got big, just the idea that you dislike. Meanwhile it's not the idea that he gets small again but the logistics that I dislike. XD
I also felt that the pacing was terrible. A lot of cool ideas, and some fun moments, but so many things needed a lot more time to be fleshed out. Should have been a two part episode.
I liked it. And relished all the twists and turns.Yes, it looks like the end of the series was a big fourth wall punchline. I liked it :)
This episode made me so salty when I first watched it! I mean, I already knew what was going to happen, and thanks to how much hype they put into the "how" River learned the Doctor's name ever since the library episode, the fact this happened OFF-SCREEN, and how disjointed this episode felt, it just made me wonder why I even bothered in the first place
HOW DID THE TARDIS BLOW UP IN SERIES 5!? I swear at this point the series thinks it’s all explained away... but it ain’t.
Im on board with Smiths throwaway line "I thought I must have left the stove on or something" (cant remember the exact line tbh) some episode later... its a better explanation than the show would have given IF it had properly been explained I wager ;)
@@Daelyas and i really wanted to know who that creepy voice was...
@@theshadowdirector it sounded just like the shapeshifter alien from the eleventh hour... but that would not make sense... was it just a memory in his head... did someone actually talk? It didnt sound like a "Silence" nor "Eyepatch lady"... so yeah... your guess is as good as mine :D
@@Daelyas no, Prisoner Zero 's voice wasfar more 'slithery', The voice in the TARDIS was gruff and harsh.
@@theshadowdirector possible. Might be my memory playing tricks on me.
ah yes, this episode exists.
good
I really feel like this should have been a two parter in itself, let’s face it, Closing time was ok but overall unnecessary and then to start with as confusing an idea as time breaking and everything happening at the same time... or at least parts of time happening in places it shouldn’t because let’s face it, the world would be horrific if it did not somehow functional.
Who knows maybe this would have worked with only one episode but the way it’s been put together it really doesn’t.
Moffat, the great individual episode writer, but the terrible show-runner. His series arcs were a mess that lead to a decline in the quality of the series finale when he took over from Russel T Davies.
To be honest I mostly agree, but I'd put it more succintly...
Amy was the only really good part of this episode :D
The rest was kinda "meh".
The Doctor saying he told River his name opens up another weird can of worms 'cause in Silence In The Library, River knew his name... but we never got to see the scene where he told her that, we just got to see a weird fake-out false version.
There's a midpoint to this episode that you can just tell is what Moffat originally planned as the cliffhanger to a two parter - it's so frustrating that instead of this being a 2 part finale we got Closing Time instead, which is probably the worst episode of Doctor Who in my opinion.
I also think the silence used River as a scapegoat in the suit - but yeah it doesn't work :(
I really only remember the music it was so amazing
Murray Gold is a genius.
Moffat at his very worst megalomaniac nonsensical rubbish. As just a writer if someone else was the showrunner and Moffat came to them with at least 80% of his ideas he would've been laughed out. As the showrunner he got away with this kind of crap.
Also time happening all at once is one of the dumbest things that ever happened in Doctor Who. Just the idea of Churchill coming back home on a mammoth or whatever destroys any sospension of disbelief I could ever hope to have for this episode. It's just too stupid. Too quirky. Too much.
Wasn't Rose saving her Dad messing with what was supposed to be a fixed point ?
Well not exactly a full on fixed point in the whole of time, just Rose’s history.
As far as I can tell going by the reaction of the timeline in this episode.
Enjoyable even though it jumps the shark.
Doctor Who final episodes can be detrimental to the season. Series 3 and 6 could easily be my favourites, but the finales let them down.
Am I the only one who wanted Kovarian to come back after this? She should have at least been in Time of the Doctor. I think her spitefulness works towards the Doctor works as I got the impression she hates him because of the war on Trenzalore- that should have explored that more.
Great review. However... This is a masterpiece compared to the current series 😆.
It really isn't.
Moffat era doctor who is the definition of 'worse than the sum of its parts'
I still dont understand why the wedding part even happened. I love river song as a character and the concept that they dont meet in order. But so much of the plot surrounding her character makes no sense. Its really disappointing.
The teasing of finding out the doctor's name always annoyed me, it's not something I want or need to know and it's obvious they'll never actually tell us so please stop pretending.
the reason why River has to kill the doctor is just so clichè that you probably forgot. It's was the prophecy! by the headless munks i think?
That is so forgettable in a story so full as this one.
This is one of the worst episode in modern Who in my opinion. I'd say it's the worst season finale of the revival. Worst even compared to Hell Bent for me. Yeah.
Fair enough. Do yiu like Chibnall's writing?
Honestly to this day I'm confused on the "point" or message or even just plot of this episode like.. man it had some good ideas but what a yikes moment
This episode wastes so many amazing ideas
Like this one episode could’ve been a densely packed season if they wanted
but no
instead it’s one rushed hobbled together episode
There was a period of time when this was considered the worst series finale of Modern Who, and for a long time, I actually kind of agreed with that... but then 'The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos' came along.
really? This and Hell Bent was far worse... mainly for f-ing with "important" lore elements etc... Battle of Ranskoor was just another stand alone episode for me... not great or anything but I wasnt actively annoyed.
Hell Bent however... ufff.... the second of only 2 episodes in the ENTIRE history of the show that I actually "loath".
@@Daelyas Series 9 is my fav series of Modern Who, and while 'Hell Bent' had its problems, there were, at least for me, plenty of moments that made it feel like the ending of a story.
@@Daelyas Battle of Ranskoor and Wedding are both highly mediocre for different reasons but both are masterpieces compared to Hell Bent.
@@benw4409 Both are decent episodes on their own, but fail as season finales imo. And yeah Hell Bent just sucks.
@@ryanpollard1166 Like what? Im not trying to be mean here but pretty much not a single scene/moment worked for me.
Lets go through it:
- Right at the start Clara shows up again... I was immediately bummed out. And I dont even "hate" her character with a passion as some do. It just got bungled as all hell over time. (Mainly Jennas "fault" for leaving the show then not then leaving then not etc... uff!) The amount of sorrowful goodbye scenes she had was insane... and Hell Bent wasnt even the last time :D Its ridiculous.
- The Doctor once again being this "Messiah" like figure... cant stand that unless its "small scale" (like in the Pompeii episode where ONE family later considers him and Donna "Gods".
- Ashilda (or however you spell it) just comes off as a smug, bratty character lecturing a several thousand year old and significantly wiser person than she ever will be on philosophy 101. Also how the hell did a piece of tech from a relatively low level species (whatever their name was... Mire? Maya?) make some one able to live BILLIONS of years? I can accept a few hundred... thats about it. She is also "just" immortal in the sense of not aging. She can be wounded, right? So she lived through billions of years without getting killed in wars, disasters, accidents etc? Really? I mean Jack was made immortal due to TIMELORD tech... and he ages into a giant face in only a few million years... what gives?
-Why the hell is the Sisterhood of Karn on Gallifrey? And why do the Timelords listen to them? I thought they basically cant stand and ignore each other... whatever... minor complaint that one.
-Pointless cameo monsters once again... Oh! Look! A weeping angel! Does it actually do anything?... uhm... nope. Moving on.
-Rassilons WORST appearance to date... From Godlike founder of a super advanced society to grumbling old man... EPIC! oO
-What was the point of going back to Gallifrey at all if the plot just gives up caring half way through to focus ONCE AGAIN on Clara and another "goodbye" scene... (Then again any Time Lord story since the 70s has been mostly disappointing - they are far better left off screen)
-No consequence death once again... even the memory wipe is of no consequence since it gets undone one season later...
-Neither Ashilda nor Clara should be able to fly a Tardis at all... even if you discount "The 2 Doctors" explanation of the symbiotic nucleus needed for it to even work safely.
-The freaking barn again... its a BARN!!!! Its nothing special... ALL OF TIME AND SPACE is possible... lets film in a barn... it will be glorious!
What did I like in Hell Bent?
Uhm... it looked good? The acting (with the exception of "Asilda= smug brat" and "Rassilon = grumpy grandpa) was good as usual...
and... thats about it.