I feel like this video explained very well, how people just assume that if someone gives them advice, then that must mean that that person looks down on them or regards themselves too highly. As a casual player myself I don't put emphasis on playing optimally, because my goal from the start has never been to clear or even efficiently farm endgame raiding content. But never once did I think FF logs was an issue that would cause toxicity in the community. Not even once have I ever encountered anyone being openly hostile towards me just because my dps should be higher. When people gave me advice they did it in a neutral/informative or even friendly manner. It's mostly the other side of the argument where things get messy, at least from my experience so far. On one hand "casualists" insist that everyone should be allowed to play the game as they want, but on the other hand, by rejecting all feedback and lashing out, they force their group to go along with what they believe to be the "right" way. In my opinion that's just hypocritical and definitely more toxic than a simple neutral comment on how you could improve, even if you may not have asked for that comment. It's a multiplayer game after all, there will always be communication and if you just basically tell people to keep their opinions to themselves just because you don't care, then it's not their problem. It's yours. And there are definitely better ways to deal with that, for example like actively looking for people to play with that don't mind, or share your mindset. That being said, overall I feel like FFXIV has a great community. The level of toxicity is way lower than what I am used to from other MMO's, or even just the internet in general and in my experience it is usually very easy to get along with people, even though I don't consider myself much of a people person.
I think a lot of it comes down to people who come from other MMO's. They associate parse and other tools as a way to harass people about their performances, not to say some people don't use them that way (saw someone do this before) but a lot of folks are afraid 14 because the amount of popularity is gaining as of late, will turn into the next WoW in terms of toxicity. While I have no problems in receiving feedback, I am not as fast to react to things as other players, it takes me a bit of getting used to. The only problem that has an encounter with Parse came in the form of telling me how to do my job. Basically telling me WHICH spells to use for healing when I had no trouble keeping up with healing in the first place. (no one has wipe cuz I didn't heal enough if anything I healed too much sometimes?) having people telling me I should use certain spells just turns me off because like I said, never been an issue for me. Basically trying to control how I should play.
Thank you. You're the kind of player that makes all of us believe advice doesn't always fall on deaf ears. If only there were more people open to actual criticism instead of going fully defensive about literally anything...
@@Miyao05 That honestly depends. If that advice was basically telling you to not use Cure 1/Benefic 1/Physick, then they were completely right. Especially for the former. Cure 1 is a noob trap some people think is good because of the freecure proc. A proc, mind you, that is 15% chance. That's insanely low and unreliable. The proc is there to "maybe" help you out when shit has already hit the fan, not as a tool to manage your MP (you already have Lucid Dreaming, Thin Air and Assize for that). Another noob trap is has is the fact the cast is shorter than Cure II, but the fact it's still the same recast time (whatever your GCD is at, so probably between 2.40 and 2.50 seconds) makes it so there's still gonna be the same time in-between heals, making it even more worthless. In 99% of the cases, Cure 2 will be better. As for Benefic 1, casting one GCD worth of healing is always gonna be better than needing 2 to do the same, especially when you take into consideration healing per second. What is better, 800 potency in 5 seconds or 700 in 2.5 seconds? You already know the answer, especially if the tank is dropping like a brick. Physick does have a place when you just need to heal one target (not just shield them with an Adlo, but actually heal them for a specific HP-based mechanic) really fast and your OGCDs/Aetherflow stacks are down, but again, that's basically for emergencies. I'm not excusing the fact they may have told you this in a harsher language, but they probably weren't wrong.
@@Miyao05 probably they adviced you on how to heal more efficently and you just rejected everything because "its fine we survive", so you're being the topic of this video
@@Miyao05 I started as a WHM and I would say that some of the advice helped. About which spells to use, it really depends, someone told me to use Cure over Cure 2 but that was for the Freecures and MP management and avoiding a death in a bind due to the higher casting times. Also you need to know that healing draws the most aggro and if the tanks are new then the overhealing would not only deplete you MP in some cases but also take aggro off the tank. Still not sure about the Cure 3 over media advice I got but their generally is a reason behind them and most do clarify why to do what they suggested.
I had an interaction with one of these "toxic casuals" that i think most people will have had. And if you haven't yet ; you will at some point. I was doing leveling roulette and got the nightmare that is aurum vale. I was the tank and i noticed that the healer was new. So i tried doing smaller pulls on the infamous 1st room. It was going fine but then of course the healer stood out in the middle of the room and ended up pulling a bunch of roaming adds. And you already know what happens next, they couldn't handle the extra damage being done to me and we died. So I put into chat, 'If you come stand over on the wall with us you can avoid pulling unnecessary adds.'And the response I got was, 'Oh i'm sorry I guess i'm not as much of an EXPERT as you. I'll see myself out seeing as how i'm not good enough to be in YOUR party.' And they left. They fucking left on the 1st pull of aurum vale. I was a tank so i knew if we didnt find another healer i could just go right back in to queue and be fine, but god knows how long the dps had to wait. Luckily though after a few minutes we got a new healer and the dung went smooth. But damn that kind of mentality that any advice means I think i'm a god and i'm above you is so awful. I don't think like that. you know why? BECAUSE WE WERE ALL NEW AT ONE POINT.
If they react this way to being HARMLESSLY criticized in a game I wonder how they handle real life in general without snapping out, like what the actual frick?
I think it's how you delivered the message that made it come off as "sarcastic". It's somewhat similar to telling my boyfriend "If you didn't look at that girl over there, you would not have missed what I said!" lol. I think it's very important to try and be as "friendly" as possible, because we don't know how they will take it. There is no voice tone in text chat, so you can easily be misinterpreted. As a tank, you could tell them something like "Hey team, let's try to stay close to the wall, so we won't pull unnecessary mobs" This give them more of an "US" statement instead of being singled out.
@@a3lorenzo it's true and a good general advice! As much as I think the healer he had was overly sensitive, it's always good to have a more cautious approach.
I tanked vale one time, had 2 returning players and one new player. Returning players 1 asks for a refresh so I'm like ya don't stand in the yellow, hug left wall I'll explain bosses when we get to them. The gate drops, I pull first mob. Returning players and new player die standing in yellow, returning 1 pulls add and dies before I can get it off him. Party wipe and I was left alone in the dungeon with in 1 minute if the thing actually starting
@@a3lorenzo i would agree with that, however in that particular situation, the guy that left probably would have seen even the most friendly effort to give advice as condescending or passive-aggressive. It truly is all about how people choose to read things, some people are just like that. I can see how one COULD read OP's advice as sarcastic, but realistically how many people WOULD actually do that? Well, probably more than I would hope. But anyway my point is simply, that in general I think his advice would be perceived as quite neutral and most people who do read something sarcastic/toxic into it, would most likely see even a friendlier attempt as fake, passive-aggressive and/or condescending.
Context is everything, people are infinitely more offended when they are given advice they didn't ask for. I also feel that the ffxiv community whether it be elite players or casuals ones are quite passive aggressive especially in PF which just piles more onto the problem of advice being just that.
This. There is alot of great people in ff14 but a lot of people only want to claim that the community is awesome and not look at the blatant passive aggressive nature a lot of players have.
It's ridiculous too when the same people that think you're an elitist and arrogant for starting the Rank 1 Tank Guide video that way are ALSO the type of people that think anyone that gives them advice is looking down on them. If you don't want anyone to tell you how to play the game, then why click on a video titled "FFXIV: Advanced Tanking Guide From a Rank 1 Tank." That's literally the bike stick meme. In my opinion, starting the video that way just establishes credibility. I don't want any guide from someone that's 50th percentile on fflogs for example.
@@masterdann1 Except the many cases on TalesFromDF where runs were incomplete or the toxic casual stirring up a ruckus for sucking had to be kicked or leaving before progress could continue.
It would be nice if the game itself did a better job of teaching its player base. An extreme example but I started playing in ARR and didn’t understand the concept of gcds and weaving ogcds between them until heavensward. In that situation I didn’t even know what parsing was and had no idea I was even doing anything wrong.
I think it's important to keep in mind that the UA-cam comments will contain every kind of person and mindset. To me, stating that you're a rank 1 player made me think, 'Oh, cool, so he really knows his shit.' It made me take your advice more seriously. And to other people, it clearly turned them off or made them think that you're some flavour of snobby elitist. Ultimately, Lynx? I suggest making peace with the fact that your approach is always going to leave some people out in the cold. Stay true to your own approach, and people who like it (like me) will stay true to you accordingly. Keep up the good work.
@@NamesLynx Going off of what Mister Bones said, I also agree since stating your achievements give your advice merit and weight to them. Keep up the work.
I believe how you explain things to people is more important than what you are actually saying. I do believe in making players more efficient, ff14 even has a novice network to support that very idea. However I have seen plenty of cases in this game and others where simple advice is often understood differently from person to person. For example "you not going ever be good if you dont start using ability x more" has the exact same meaning as "hey, I bet you could probably increase your dps by a lot if you start using ability x more". One is outwardly friendly, the other just sounds like a prick and probably gonna be the one to vote you out of the party for failing a mechanic you missed on your first attempt in a dungeon. Also forewarning, isn't parsing and logging technically against TOS? If so, I don't think its a good idea to be announcing on youtube that you use them.
Right ?? It's so tiresome to have to try and cover everyone, or as many people as we can into something, a cake is only so big for a group of people to enjoy, not everyone can have a piece of it, he really didn't have to go out of his way for them, not this far for something so obvious
That's something that really gets to me regarding anything, not even 14 or games in general. I'm proud of my achievements - so why should I not talk about them? If someone won an award at an event, are they not allowed to be excited and proud of their achievement without it being snobby? I guarantee every person that complains about someone talking about their high parses, have AT LEAST once in their life talked about something they were proud of.
I found it reassuring as someone who's just starting the game it gives me a sense of security that im not learning something that is totally wrong or suboptimal
I view elitism as inherently meaning that you're looking down on other people as a person, rather than acceptance that you're just more experienced/skilled than others at this particular thing. In that sense, people who are unable to take advice are often just elitists of their own form "I'm a better person than them, I don't need their advice" because they refuse to accept that someone could have more skill or knowledge at something that honestly, is ultimately irrelevant because it is just a game. But they refuse to accept that they aren't the best at everything they do inherently. Granted, on the other hand I do think people have experience being told obviously wrong advice by obnoxious assholes before and have grown to buil up this wall. If you don't know much about the game, it can be hard to tell the difference between skilled person who knows what they're talking about, and an overly confidant idiot who doesn't.
@@PhoenixRisingX Yep. I've raided with a few. They're excellent players but oh boy, the ego can be massive. Fortunately, the vast majority aren't like this. But you tend to remember the players who cause more drama than the ones trying to prevent it.
Good job mate. You actually broke down the current internet arguments going on for FF Actually your "You pull you tank" Vid has been a main point of contention in arguments atm
Fantastic video, well explained, and coming from a good place. I think one of the main issues is connected to how "text" messages are perceived in the moment. So happy I discovered this channel, keep up the great work. :)
I think what you're missing in this video, is proper interpersonal communication skills. Ultimately, you need to learn how to better approach people with criticism and advice. Some people are new to savage and nervous that they will be immediately bombarded with criticism and I empathize with people like that. Watching this video, i can't help but feel that you're very apathetic to people not " on your level" . The reason people are turned off is because you present yourself as a cold, apathetic person. If interpersonal communication classes have taught me anything, it's that a lot more people need to take those classes. At the end of the day your ability to communicate to your team ( static or not) properly will present yourself to be either an encoraging leader or a elitist boss. If you feel that i'm saying this without evidence, let me show you an example from your own video. When the tank was not doing his rotation correctly your response was "can you aoe please?" your response could come off as belittling since your tone cannot be read through chat. Although the tone in your video only made it clear that you came about it with frustration and annoyance. I understand, i get the feeling of having to deal with a player who doesn't know their class or mechanics but if you're going to comment about it you need to go about it in a way where you are doing it with respect and consent. Like maybe saying " Hey, did you know that paladins have a aoe rotation? I'd be happy to tell you them if you want!" It's not perfect but it's a lot better than the prior since the prior comes off like your annoyed and being passive aggressive. I know that may annoy you, but if you want to actually be helpful, you need to put the work in. You weren't being helpful because you assumed that he knew about the aoe rotation. He more than likely reacted like that because he probably didn't know and telling you to not " tell him what to do" was an easy enough rebuttal. " you need to remember this is a team game..." exactly, so act with compassion and empathy when confronting someone with helpful advice. To conclude, is elitism okay? No. But also what you needed to answer, should players that want to give advice learn basic interpersonal communication skills, well if you want to avoid conflict and actually be helpful, then yes. No one is asking you to be perfect though. We all can get passive aggressive and respond with announce, but the more aware you are the better you'll be off. This is a long read and i'm sure i myself maybe came about this harshly, I apologize if this criticism offended you but i hope you still understood what I was trying to conclude.
In the end players need to get off their high horse. If you aren't doing aoe rotation on a large group as a PLD you are likely a newish player. If you are new and can't take any sort of advice well, that's being a crappy player. I'm not there to create a 5 minute essay in telling you what to do, because a level 80 add pull isn't the time for it. "Use aoe please, it's higher potency" if this triggers you, that's not my problem. Turn off chat if you are new and just want to play a team game without listening to any advice given...
I feel a little bad for people with the mentality of "all criticism of my performance is a direct attack on me as a person", because that kind of mentality is rarely limited to just video games and it is guaranteed to cause them problems and misery in other areas of life. And there's really not a lot anyone can do to get them to see that because that mentality is so self-preserving.
it's likely a defensive mechanism so not only it'll cause them problems and misery going forward, they're also almost guaranteed to have had problems in the past to act so harshly with that behavior, which is double sad
When I first started playing this game I tried to pug A11s back in Heavensward as a Warrior and I had no idea what I was doing. One of my friends who helped me through the start of the game told me that Warrior is an off tank role so I always tried to off tank every fight I could and was too nervous to main tank. During one of my pug sessions in A11s I had someone confront me telling me that I should be main tanking because I am a Warrior. I was anxious to try but I gave it my best shot but no matter how hard I tried I couldn't hold aggro on the boss and the dps kept ripping the boss off me. I had no idea how to hold emnity because I had never main tanked before. The person that told me to main tank didn't even get mad, they just asked me if I knew what I was doing and I explained that I had never main tanked before and he took the next 10-20 minutes to give me an opening rotation and told me to practice it on the boss. To my surprise the rest of the party were completely chill with me even though I was wasting their time. The nerves got to me too hard at the time and I couldn't do the opening rotation properly under pressure so I decided to leave the party and afterwards I practiced the rotation on a training dummy for the next hour until I got it down. The person that told me to main tank was never aggressive with me and I never took it as him flaming me. I took it as an opportunity to learn my class and improve as a tank. Him and everyone else in the party was very nice and extremely patient with me even though I was wasting their time in this A11s pug. If it wasn't for that 1 person calling me out for being bad I don't think I would have improved to the point I'm at now.
I had a "toxic casual" once in the level 80 roulette. I was healing, and the tank (who had the full 480 set) was tanking two enemies at a time and refused to pull. Keep in mind that I do the high end raiding with healers, so Amaurot is an absolute joke to heal for. I asked him "hey, would you be able to pull more? I can keep you up no prob". His response was "I'm the tank and I'm pulling small. I don't care what you think, and if you pull any enemies I'm letting you die.". So I proceeded to just parse instead of heal because obviously two enemies at a time can't kill him. He immediately starts ranting that "healers don't get a say in pulling, just heal me.". Needless to say, I just didn't wanna put up with that anymore and left the dungeon because I didn't want to wait a thousand years to beat Amaurot. This guy starts sending "Tell"s at me half an hour later throwing every insult he could think of. And that was the first person I blacklisted
Still remember when in e6s we(7ppl static) told red mage to not use his lb3, because it is deal less damage. He start "wall" every pull and called us toxic.
I understand your point about him being a dick.. but i hate it when people tells me how to play.. i respond in a nice way tho not like the guy you encountered. If they get mad at me as a tank i tell them that they shouldve qued up as a tank and pull however they like..
@@paynne You're the type of casual Lynx talks about in his videos. The healer insists they can keep you alive, you're the only person holding yourself back. Pushing yourself out of your comfort zone once will allow you to improve as a player and you will realise big pulls really aren't that hard or scary.
I think there's a couple of important points to address from a more casual perspective. First, giving advice and/or helping others is not a zero sum game. The vast majority of people I've seen who complain about their advice not being welcomed are, frankly, just not really giving advice in a way that someone is going to welcome. Giving advice or guidance is as much in the way you do it as it is in the content of said advice. And that's often where the perspective of someone being elitist comes in. Second, I really do think it depends a lot on the content you're actually doing. If you're doing EX and up content? Yeah, everyone should be on their game and either know what they're doing or should be very willing to learn. If you're just doing your daily roulette? Eh, it sucks when you get a group that isn't very good but I fail to see how it's that big of a deal. Not saying you can't or shouldn't give guidance but you need to accept that, in that content, some people just don't care as much as you do or aren't as good as you are. As said in the video, it's a team game but that means the top players have to go down as much as the bottom players can go up. It's not a one way street. If you're going into your daily roullettes and expecting high level play from everyone involved then that's an expectation of your own creation. We know the game doesn't require top level play from the vast majority of it's content so it's honestly pretty silly of you to expect everyone to play at top level just because you're in the room.
@@anthonydelfino6171 that would be lvl one..... and as Lynx already said... he does a shit ton of damage for a tank and cares a whole lot about how he plays
This has been a touchy subject ever since MMOs and different tiers of players existed... Personally I try to make it as fun as possible for the target person so that I don't come across as being bossy or wanting people to do something that I want (even if it's a better playstyle statistically). I don't think it's so much about telling people what to do and when to do it but rather, more of how it's being told. In groups outside of raids and statics where DPS checks aren't a thing, it's generally okay for me if players dorked around and are a little less efficient. Outright trolling and wasting other people's time is still a no-no, though. Raids are a different matter altogether, everyone there has a completely different mindset, so constructive criticism can be given without much repercussions because everyone understands the need for progress. Being able to distinguish the two types of content and knowing when to be laxed is key to a more fun experience in FFXIV, IMHO. Personally i'd rather play with a less capable but positive person than someone on the opposite spectrum - being excellent at gameplay but horrible with interactions.
Being a great player and being an elitist are related, but they don't have to be. You can act like an elitist and suck. It's more of the attitude towards others. You can be the best player in the world, but if you bail after one wipe, what good are you?
Back and Wrath of the lich King, was in a dungeon with a death knight, they were super OP in that expansion. He had awesome gear. But he was doing less DPS than the tank. Obviously he had level boosted and bought as much gear as he could, but didn't know how to play. And he was bossing people around like he was God. 😆
Someone who's fucking sick of _explaining_ Ancient Flare to sprouts three times a week, and getting _four_ fuckin' raid wipes because some goldfish-attention-spanned ADHD patient just couldn't bugger themselves to stand on their relevant control point _on 7+ year old content._
@@terrellcole7633 That's so on point, always had some random person with a crown come out of nowhere and tell me how to dps, tank, or heal like buddy, I could leave this run and grab that crown status anytime I want 🙄
The reality is there's a difference between being casual and refusing to learn your job. I consider myself casual yet I took lots of advice to get where I am as a tank main to clear savage and I consider myself a pretty good tank all in all. If I see someone struggling or doing something wrong I feel obligated to give them time to acclimate and some helpful tips. So much of the game is learned from experience and interacting with others.
thank you for addressing this. toxic casuals is a huge problem in the ff community, and people treat it like its an unforgivable sin to try to say or suggest otherwise. I wish more ff14 youtubers would talk about this, because it really is some bullshit if you have to worry if you'll be jailed or banned because you pointed out how to play better to someone thats very obviously not playing their class right (healers not helping with dps when everyone's full, ice mages, the "you pull it you tank it" mentality, caster red mage hardcasting verthunder/veraero without using melee at all). It's just gotten to the point where i turn my chat off completely if im not playing with friends, and talk as little as possible if at all. and if i get stuck with any of those gems, i just leave and eat the 30m lfg ban. it's just not worth potentially losing my account because some toxic casual decided to be assmad at someone for giving tips on how to play their class.
Ice mages is a funny argument when someone science'd themselves as both an ice mage and later a *THUNDER* mage and STILL did more dps than about 60 percent of the accessiible playerbase in their data center!
Im a PS4 player myself, so getting logs is tricky. I've spoken to my raid leader about it because I personally *WANT* to improve, and could tell that his main reaction in it was worry over how I'd take the criticism. That by itself is a red flag, to have people react that way. I mean, we all want to be good players, right? So take all the help you can get.
Damn, good video. I've got kicked out of a group because i asked the tank to stop moving around so much (i was mnk), and right before the last boss, those people kicked me. But used my dps, that was some hardcore casualism
I think there should be a separation of expectations between casual content like dungeons and high tier raiding. Not everyone wants to clear casual content (for me its every single dungeon) as fast as possible. Once I got into a party where the other 3 players wanted to explore every room in Satasha :)
people dont take advice not because they think the better players are toxic, simply because they think it makes them look weak, its a very unfortunate thing but its still a core part of humanity itself.
Finally someone said it. The amount of times I've been cussed out over gently implying the healer should DPS instead of standing totally still AFK half of the fight, the 4k DPS MCH in Qitana spamming 1-2-3 on 8+ targets should use AoE and maybe go to The Balance to learn some of the basics of their class, the healer who only spams medica in a dungeon even if the tank is the only one getting hurt or at full HP should DPS more, only heal when needed, and maybe throw a regen, a cure, or more preferably an oGCD heal if possible where needed. But no. I'm elitist for suggesting basic advice and I am yelled at for half the dungeon being bullied out of even talking in party chat, but no, I am the toxic one. Thank you for this video.
I only complain about someone who is acting like a jerk or just acting like they're better then people. If we ended up meeting in game, we'd probably get along.
I don't mind the advice from other players, especially with classes I don't really play often. I dislike the attitude some players have when they get mouthy or act like a jerk because the healer isn't dpsing or the tank doesn't wall to wall pull. Like yeah the tank should probably pull more and the healer should try to dps, I agree, but acting rude about it won't get them too.
@@kyle013100 I actively go out of my way to be incredibly nice to new players because one of my favorite things to do in this game is teach new players. It's incredibly satisfying to see people learn at an incredibly fast rate compared to when I first started playing. The quicker you teach a newbie, the more likely they are to become a solid player. Being mean while trying to teach people would only make them push me away. It's just that even if I *gently* imply a tip to make the dungeon/trial/raid, etc run more smoothly, I'm immediately called out for providing any advice ever (even by other Mentors and the like) for being "elitist" when I'm very clearly just giving them advice. At that point you're public enemy #1 and I partially wish the 30 minute lockout wasn't a thing so I didn't have to sit through a dungeon with people who insult me the whole time.
@@kyle013100 As a Dragoon main, I prefer smaller pulls because don't get full AOE rotations until nearly 80. I'm level 63 now and I have three AOE moves. One jump and two normal skills. If the Tank pull a huge group, I cant do much overly fast. Since I don't have a full AOE skill rotation.
I think people are just getting lazy ( When its just a roulette or msq dungeon) nowadays since u said it was just the Qitana dungeon Its sad, but usually they are just trying to level their class and don't care about how much dmg they do or if they do dmg to begin with :-: A lot of people have sadly bad experience with getting cursed, kicked etc. at while they were still adapting to FFXIV and after that they just think everything is trying to make them look bad. Sorry for my bad english im from Germany but i hope u still understand my point :-:
Everytime I've told someone advice because we were struggling, they either didn't say anything and continued to do the exact same thing or thought I was being toxic and continued to do the exact same thing.
If you repeatedly gets called out for being toxic it might be the way you're expressing your advice. Some will ofc always say you're toxic, but most people seem grateful for advice. Try changing it up, maybe it helps.
@@piicii86 Many tried that. Even the most sweetest worded avice sets people off. And to be frank, i dont want to sugarcoat EVERY fck sentense i write, just because Mr Snowflake is getting angry over "Please use your damage spells a bit more"
I think the issue arises when people expect or tell you to perform at e8s level when inside old or casual content such as roulettes. Also dps isn't king, Mechanics are king. Don't believe me then the early raid strats that aren't typically "dps ideal" such as ilya strat wouldn't be a thing. As for parses they are mostly a joke in some cases as the extreme fight modification to score ever higher and in fact typically involve manipulation of the fight typically only achievable with higher gear scores such as melee fireball soak during e6s or knockback cheese or etc. All these things are for higher uptime thereby higher dps thereby shorter fight to skip later mechanics but these are a false narrative that dps is king. The fights were designed to be passable by doing the mechanics as intended and the cheese strats create bloated parse scores which in term promote less stable but more dps heavy strategies. NOT THAT THIS IS A BAD THING. What it means is parses are driven by competition to do more dmg which drives raid strategies to do more damage which then sets the player paradigm that unless you are doing the most damage possible you are "casual" or "lazy" or "unreceptive to feedback" when you may just prefer more stable less error prone but less uptime strategies. You aren't wrong about people becoming offended too quickly but you yourself engage in this by labeling players as "casualism" for disregarding your advised because maybe they are comfortable with their level of play in the content they are engaging in at that time. Don't be offended if they don't care it takes a little bit longer or they aren't doing top tier dps.
I've almost always agreed with your points and in the faith of improvement, I will say tone is important. People are not usually logical creatures, we're emotional ones. If you tell someone "Can you aoe please," there's not enough information to take as constructive criticism. A lot of people will assume the worst and will read it as "You're being bad. Do you even know how to play?" I know you only used that as an example off the top of your head, but if you work on making your tone sound less accusatory it goes a long way towards making people more open to understanding. Just as a one-off example, "If you AoE packs that are 3 or more, you'll not only do more DPS, but make it easier for us to simply run to you to re-take aggro :)". I feel something like that is easier to take less as a criticism of your own competence and more like information that will help you improve as a player.
That can sound extremely condescending as well, because to some people, you'll just be treating them as babies. There is no winning when someone just doesn't want to listen and improve.
I've tried actually putting more explanation and kindness into it instead of just putting it bluntly forward. It's actually resulted in about to same result, I'd argue a little worse. Being nice they usually just ignore me, and the problem continues. Being blunt, they at least call me a dickwaffle retard in front of everyone and we find a replacement.
When you said you are a rank 1 tank, I thought you were someone who knows his shit. Then I watched the video (tank guide), and I had a suddent urge of trying to tank. I leveled my WAR and I love it. I've finally found a real main role that I can stick to, and thanks to your advices, I'm not so bad in a short amount of time. Thank you for that. BTW : seeing the old WAR in your background gamplays makes me wish I could try it. x)
I think a common issue is people not caring about others in this game, being a rather common mentality carried over from real life as well. Everyone is focused on what they consider their own fun and don't give a damn about the other 3/7/23 people in that party/alliance. Any suggestion to improve will be taken as a direct insult. I've seen my fair share of these people in just about a year. And for most elitists that want to tell you what you apparently do wrong, half of them rarely ever do well themselves. Sadly, its the loud ones that ever break what others would just use to improve, namely some elitists rubbing parses into others faces/shaming them, hence why Square is refusing on damage meters. But in reality, most people just want to help. Recently, as I just started picking up AST for Ultimate, I have been in logging groups in savage to hammer in some healing routine. Having met an amazing co-healer (with quite the temper), I reached out to them to analyze my performance, and got greater pointers from them in terms of healing (and by extension proper tanking as well) than anything The Balance gave me up prior. Reach out to people. Don't be afraid to ask people with high scores on how they do stuff or just stalk their logs. Becoming better at the game makes things easier for everyone, thus removing any reason to be mad about things
The sheer AMMOUNTS of times ive been told to shut my elitist mouth, or been ridiculed for having Mentor I dont bother counting anymore. More people need to see this Video to finally understand that giving legitimate and valid advice is NOT "telling you how to do your job", it's "telling you how to do your job BETTER". If you wanna be that one guy that stubornly does stuff the way S/HE wants and no other way, fine, but dont drag down 3-7-23 other players in the Process. Awesome Video, keep it up.
I think you hit the nail on the head when talking about this topic. A lot of hate towards people giving genuine advice is rooted in insecurities, low self-worth, thinking you're talentless etc. This all is a reflection of how those ppl feel irl. And considering FFXIV is a weeb friendly MMO of all things, it attracts people with various issues irl that they can forget about in-game. So when that one BLM player who thinks he's hot shit starts getting defensive about how he's died 3 times in a row to the same mechanic, it's more often than not their insecurities kicking in. This is all purely based on years of playing MMO's and what I've come to realize when interacting with so many ppl. A lot of them just use games to escape responsibility.
Can't agree with this more. If you are looking to improve yourself no advice gets under your skin unless the person giving it is being specifically nasty. Good minded players accept when they mess up and more importantly understand why others give the advice when they've made mistakes because they are already thinking the same thing about their own performance. I've made my fair share of mistakes, and my response is always to just be honest whether that be "thanks, still learning" or "I know, I just really messed that up" or god forbid if I've done exceptionally terrible to the point of embarrassment they will get a "I'm very sorry & I'll make sure to research this before attempting it again". None of that makes me feel bad about myself because I'm confident that fair minded players are more than happy to encounter others who can properly accept their failures yet seek to better themselves. Of course there are proper toxic elitists, but as I said, I'm confident in my own ability to better myself so their nastiness will never effect me regardless of whether I learned from the advice or not. ;D
There we go. This is the kind of content you should be doing. Great clarification on the topic. I find it funny because a lot of players think there is more elitism than “casualism”. I honestly believe FFXIV suffers more from players shutting down ppl who want to help. I think it’s their perspective to assume you are being an elitist jerk talking down AT them.
As someone who's been on both sides of the equation, I also want to bring up the very real issue of Unintentional Elitism. This might sound stupid and Oxymoronic but it's a very real thing. Back in my Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer days, I was in the top 1% on my platform. However, I felt woefully inadequeate when matchmaking paired me with the top 0.1%. My score at the end of a mission reflected how much I sucked, right? So why couldn't the 99% keep up with me if I was nothing special? Why was it that a total Tank Class like the Juggernaut could die 17 times on Wave 1 on Silver Difficulty missions when they were basically immortal if you knew what button to push? "I suck ass and even I can see this, what's their excuse!?" I didn't know it, but my own lack of self esteem was making me an elitist when that's usually the exact opposite of my personality. I felt like crap once I realized it. I understood all the backlash I got for my attempts to help. I was in the top 1% for a reason and they couldn't keep up with me yet. Emphasis on yet. I think a lot of people I played with reached my level. The reason I mention it is that something to keep in mind is that skill level can lead very special kind of elitism where people don't even realize how hurtful their words come across. With something like Glamours, for example, fashion is subjective. I personally like gear that actually looks protective so I die inside when our tank is wearing a skimpy little thing, but that's their choice and I'm not calling them out on it. The thing is, skill level isn't subjective. It's very easy for even a casual player to see when someone is doing something horribly wrong. And, especially when we still think we have room to improve, seeing others somehow being worse than us can bring out some vitriol. Let me explain: I'm sure ALL of us reading this have, at one point, had to say "Tank Stance Please" as a friendly reminder. I actually forgot for about 5 seconds myself the other day, but I had an AoE OGCD ready to go so I recovered from it before the party took much damage. I'm sure at least a few people, however, have been like "omg stop getting us all murdered, you're not a blue DPS, turn your tank stance on!" which can feel justified in the moment, but when you really think about it is too much. I think when you do enough on-level content it's easy to forget that syncing down resets your buffs and therefore you need to re-stance, and that's actually something you'll see more commonly among experienced tanks who aren't used to syncing down than on-level ones that are still learning the content! Yet, it's such a basic elementary thing, Step 1 of any dungeon, that not doing it can come across as almost malicious, like "how the heck is it possible to overlook such a basic aspect of the role!?" But it happens to the best of us on rare occasions. You know what I mean? That said, everyone will progress at their own pace. Those who aren't good enough will get stonewalled by the content and get discouraged and quit. Those who stick around are learning and improving on their own and might not feel confident enough to have unsolicited advice dumped on them. I know that my first time ever poking savage, we had most of the players from our group and we just needed two to fill the ranks. Our PF listing said that we were blind and wanted to prog it blind, and were looking for likeminded players. Some guy who thought he was being helpful came in with a giant macro that wouldn't even fit on my screen with the expanded chat log to explain the whole fight and demanding we pick which numbers we are in diagrams, completely against our wishes to figure it out on our own, because he was of the opinion that as soon as the first guide is up that anyone who isn't watching it is doing it wrong, and the first guides had basically JUST come out the day before, and as the guy who watched them, he wanted to commandeer our group and tell us what's what. Problem is, I wasn't ready to adhere strictly to someone else's strategy. I wanted to riddle the fight out a bit with friends first, see what it had to offer, become comfortable with Savage because it was my first earnest foray, and THEN consult a guide to see how to improve upon what we had already figured out. Just like that, someone who thought they were just being helpful managed to sour my first impression of Savage, to the point that I started to feel sick and didn't stick around for the fight itself. Keep in mind: That guy was just TRYING to be helpful. He wasn't TRYING to intentionally be abrasive about it. But the party had made it clear in the PF what their intent was, and his refusal to accept that caused issues. Communicatiuon is a two way street, after all. This is why, when I see someone playing badly, I ask if they WANT advice, with caveats like "I have that class at 80 and I can tell you're not synced down for this yet so you just unlocked it recently, did you want some pointers?" Or "I could see some hesitation in your movement when it came to positioning during X mechanic. I main that class, did you want any advice on how to handle moments like that?" Meanwhile, the other day my Blood of the Dragon button literally broke on Dragoon and when I asked for people to wait so I could reconfigure my bars in a way I can still play they didn't, and I got cursed out for not having the very visible effect on because I had to just chase after them without access to the skill. That's not even remotely helpful. If I'm bringing Dragoon into Holminster, I've had BotD for almost 20 levels. So this brings me back to DPS Meters. Honestly? I know a lot of people who use them responsibly, but my own experience with accidental elitism makes me scared to give people the pinpoint ammunition they need to really wreck some damage. It's one thing when you can notice the Paladin trying to ST during an AoE pull because they don't trust their healer and want some MP back for Clemency. It's another when you can go "Wow, this Paladin who I don't know and could have been running a ton of lower level content with friends and wasn't using Atonement during those forgot they had Atonement, time to drag them over the spikes and coals by their scrotum, because how DARE they forget such a massive part of their level 80 rotation in the 76 story dungeon, that's at LEAST 20 lost seconds of my life they're wasting!" It's one thing to not see the Atonement animation for awhile and mention it because it's good to know. It's another to be able to look back at the log, see how rarely they used it, and be able to harrass them over it. Don't get me wrong, though! I'd argue that WAY too many people are WAY too quick to jump into content they are NOT ready for! "I spent half the normal version of that Raid Dead, but I want to experience Savage!" Please rein yourselves in a bit. Even back in my ME3 example, a big part of my frustration was that people who didn't even have anything in their Gear Slot (basically like playing FF14 without accessories equipped) joining Gold and even Platinum level missions for the better rewards, when they clearly hadn't worked their way up to it. Without question, these players would always eat dirt because even the Alt accounts of Veteran players knew to fill your gear slot before going above Silver! This holds true of any game, and at least FF14 has minimum IL walls to mitigate the worst of it, but when Raids are still current the IL availability is strict enough that you can't trivialize it with IL like you largely can in getting caught up. When you need 480 to do E8S and the max AIL is 500, that's nothing like Praetorium's Min IL of 43 vs the 130 people rock in it, you know what I mean? The difference has to be made up for via player skill, so yes, struggling with the Normal version is basically proof that you should hold off on Savage, you know? Anyways, just my two cents on Elitism, because I'd argue that most people being elitist aren't trying to be jerks about it. Case in point, I know Lynx made these videos to be helpful, yet their Dark Knight video used a phrase along the lines of "or you can turn your brain on and consult a tanking guide before you attempt it for the first time" as if reading your skills and realizing for yourself what your buttons do is the braindead option. I'm sure they didn't MEAN that to sound so aggressively condescending, and they meant more about community expectations and just general courtesies like the "full stop rule" but it sure sounds like that to someone who's less experienced like they're being talked down to, and I say that as a current tank main with multiple tanks at 80.
Your view is very reasonable regarding the harder content, being able to step back and take easier content more casually is a needed thing. You cannot expect everyone to care about performing well in simple content. They may be leveling a class just to have it leveled, they may be trying something new, they could be doing something they service as fun. Expecting a focus on fast paced clears is unfair to those players let alone to any of the players living with mental or physical difficulties. I love nothing more than helping a new player and showing them the good side of our community, but I also understand that normal content can be taken with a normal mentality.
I literally quit being a mentor because of people not giving a fuck about advice. Wanting people to perform at the expected level for the content isn't elitist, it's called having respect for other people's time.
I suppose I come to this discussion from a different viewpoint. I am disabled with anxiety. I don't believe this should preclude me from enjoying the game. I don't play classes that I can't handle, I don't do Savage, Ultimate, or even Extreme content. I do duty finder in instances that I'm familiar with. Rushing will often give me panic as I get overstimulated. That being said, I understand that your time is valuable. The issue I have is not necessarily with folks who try to help you do better, but to those who berate you for being slow, or having poor reaction time, or not knowing the instance. My issue is "ableism", not "elitism". I come off sometimes as "casualist", but I don't insult or berate someone for trying to help me. If I ask for pulls to go more slowly, I often get ignored. I know it's my issue, not theirs, but it gets frustrating. Many of the behavours you listed as "not elitist", are nevertheless "ableist", and you assume everyone should be able to keep up with you. I don't often point my disability out, because its both embarassing and frankly, none of your business. But if someone asks you to go more slowly, or uses a limited number of actions, be aware that that may be all they are capable of at this time. Thank you.
First of all, I agree that a lot of people in FFXIV criticize to help and that in general, the community is friendly. But to a new player, getting told what to do all the time still has negative impact on their experience. New players tend to group with random people. So they probably get criticized by a lot of different people. Some people play this game not to "improve" but to have fun, and they do improve as they spend more time having fun in this game. Part of the fun, at least to me, is to explore the unknown, to make those mistakes, realize those mistakes myself, and to improve via researching as well as trial and error. Getting criticized at every turn certainly spoils the fun for noobs like me. Even if every person who criticizes me has the best intention, it's still kind of discouraging to get told indirectly how much I suck at this game, truth or not. So to those people who always want to "help" , who are so good at this game that they can spot every mistake others make, who do not wish to waste their time playing with people who don't meet their standards, please play with people who do meet your standards. That's what statics are for. If you really need to play with random people, be open minded about the fact that there are people who are bad at the game but still want to enjoy it. If they need a mentor, they will ask.
Awesome video, Lynx. I love how you contrasted "elitism" with "casualism" and explained how it's both equally bad and that we need to find a balance from each side of the spectrum.
Being a casual and fairly new player and also a migrator from WoW I was pretty shocked at the communities attitudes towards advice giving and taking. I was an EXTREMELY bad dps player when I started but was always open to advice. People seem to be super hesitant at first when correcting your play but once you show them that you take no offense and want to improve you can get some really good advice. Coming from WoW the fact people are invested and want to take time to improve is a major boon of this community and a good thing! Going forward it has made me want to help others as well and I will gladly spend an extra 5 minutes on Titan or an extra 10 minutes in low level dungeons to explain rotations and mechanics because being such a new player I know how much just little tips like showing someone how to strafe or explaining tank cooldown rollover or healer priority order and how to recover from a tank going down can completely change the game and open people up to getting advice in the future! I main in dps ninja and heal raids as scholar while I wouldn't say I'm anywhere near the "top" of ninja or scholar players because of my inability to invest time to be one, I would say I am a "good" player above mediocre because I took advice to heart and invested the time I could to become someone that was above mediocre (memorising mudras, learning how to keep up trick as much as possible, how and when to use eos, synergy with dot healers) and have even gotten compliments and comms in duty finder for playing competently and allowing the tank and healer to comfortably pull more and dps more respectively. Ultimately this long rant is just. I don't understand the mentality of not wanting to improve or not wanting advice no matter what level or experience you are. I am learning and improving everyday and in turn helping others to learn and improve and making my time and others with the game more smooth and more fun. It's a group focused game and your job above all should be contributing to group progress and learning.
I recently started playing ff14 after playing wow from vanilla through wrath, and then classic. Was a healer most of that time, and also did a little tankadin in wrath. So of course, when I realized paladins are actual tanks in ff14 and can actually do damage (old school wow players know the pain lol) I was in. Anyway, I always make it clear if I'm new to a dungeon, and always ask for input. I play this game for fun, but sucking isn't fun, so I want to get better. I get why ff14 doesn't have a dps/healing log, but coming from wow, I didn't see it as a toxic thing. I saw it as a way to check myself. Am I keeping up in dmg? Am I overhealing too much? Not healing enough? What can I do to rectify this? I liked being able to see where I stood
The only time, I swear the only time, when I did the mistake to focus on a single enemy when I had to spam aoe to hold aggro on a group, I got harassed by a dps that was clearly out there to purposely be annoying, pulling enemies while I was writing to explain a newbie the mechanics of the next boss and blaming me for not playing as they wanted. We obviously wiped and this person kept attacking me. Sometimes it feels so good to block and report, even if this person with a bunch of Mog Station cosmetics clearly don't mind being banned for some days and waste their money.
In terms of how I react to the "Rank 1 tank", my reaction depends mostly on the context and most importantly how it is said. The first video of yours I watched was the Advanced Tanking Guide, in which I pulled it up BECAUSE you were rank 1. I was looking for tips and advice on learning tanking because I had felt at the time that I knew enough on the basics of holding aggro and tanking such as positioning, using cooldowns and other things that I wanted to know what were some more advanced concepts and mentalities that went into higher level, more skilled tanking. And in that context, it's important that you establish yourself as it would be expected for you to bring your experiences into the game and provide why you're qualified to suggest these things. If you did this in every video (espeically the ones on each individual tank), I'd consider it more of an issue, as those videos are on a topic where your experience can be important, but not a necessary factor to talk about something that can be objectively discussed (like the tank classes in general). In regards to the video, I have admittedly a different view on what Elitism is, being a player that is more casual than I'd like to be, but not confident in my abilities to effectively pull off savage runs, and this came from other MMO games I played for years on end. To me, your definition of elitism is more just a "jerk" player to me. But the most problematic elitist players are not just players who think they're better: These are players who will take things like the Balance BiS as gospel, nitpick your optimizations and expect you to perform perfectly at all times. These players will use their gear, rank, or knowledge of the game (or tools like FFLogs) to brutally mock players and make themselves feel better and in the end to your point, superior. It's these players that given the Elite, hardcore players a bad name, and in truth, I do not believe being an elite top tier who wants to optimize and be effective is bad. To "casualism" I wish I could say I haven't seen that but I witnessed this with a tank in AV a week or so ago, where he wiped the party due to not spacing his buffs and at no point in the dungeon using Arm's Length. I noticed and attempted to inform him that he could use it to mitigate, and he snapped back with those exact words, and that he was in fact doing it (he wasn't, as a BRD I have to watch DoTs constantly so I can clearly see when more than just my DoTs are on an enemy). I decided not to press the matter further in that case. I don't consider advice or wanting to help is bad, though there is somewhat of a finer line with how it gets worded. If someone gets called out for wiping the party, it becomes a bit more difficult to expect that person to accept nitpicks or how to play their class or what's the "right way" to play the game. The danger for top tier players is phrases or words that would make them seem far more accusatory than what they mean. Telling someone something is "sub-optimal" or what the "correct" way to play their class are kill words effectively that shut down the conversation on both sides, as it implies not only the person trying to help that they may be looking down on someone who just wiped the team, while at the same time calling out the player in a group of 6 other players and letting everyone else know "Hey, this guy is doing badly". These conversations may be something that can only really ever be addressed in an FC or in a static/learning parties. Great video, enjoyed the content. Always like watching the Ultimate fight too.
Personally, I've encountered a situation where I was kicked from a static because the static found a "better tank" to me that's absolutely elitism, I was still pretty new to Savage content and with that static I'd cleared e1s and e2s and although it took a few hours we did it, however because these guys got through it quicker with the other tank they replaced me, because all they care about is proging Savage content, if all you care about is proging and you don't care about helping your fellow team mates improve then that, to me, is toxic elitism (p.s. sorry for the over long schpeel here 😅 )
@@NamesLynx I can agree with that, me and my FC were thinking of making our own static and if we did I know we'd definitely want to help each other improve first, especially since we're all mostly friends irl 😊
Elitism in games has nothing to do with being good at a game. Elitism is about putting others down, because you feel superior to them, and excluding them from things because they don't meet your standards. Expecting people you don't know to adhere to a standard set by yourself, is elitist. Helping them learn how to play better (politely), aquire better gear or learning a strategy, is not. You want to help people learn and give them tips and help? Awesome. Nothing elitist about that, as long as you do so in a polite manner. Being elitist is mostly about attitude, and less about actions.
the common factor between elitism and casualism is definitely having a closed mindset, going in somewhere with an open mind is definitely where you want to be in an mmo
Very well thought and logical points made. I'm a new player but this still rings true for me, especially at what to expect once I reach end-game myself. Good video man! Subbed!
When I watch your videos and hear the tone of your voice it does not sound like you are bragging about being a rank 1 tank, mostly. It sounds like you are trying to let people know you have the credentials to understand how to preform optimally. And you are just wanting to help others. It doesn't seem like you want others to play the game you do but just improve. Do keep in mind some players do have a certain comfort level they play at. For me when I started in arr I couldn't imagine dpsing as a whitemage. Now. I focus on getting out as much dps as possible, within my ability level. And keeping the party alive. When I started tanking I barely understood it. I couldn't keep agro, was yelled at a lot, and got upset a few times. Now. I run into mobs, like hit me! Give me your best shot. But still make sure I don't over pull for healers and if they need me to pull less, I don't get mad. I pull less. Just keep in mind that sometimes it is also how comfortable a person is with the game. And once they build up that and build up their knowledge. They improve greatly.
I think purposefully pushing someone out of their comfort zone every once in a while can help them to get even more comfortable, but throwing people into situations they aren't ready for can be toxic.
@@NamesLynx That's true too. Taking smaller steps to improve little by little, or accepting that people learn at different paces and being nice about it can go a long way to helping them get more comfortable.
Incredibly well thought out and well made video. This addresses a lot of the major issues with the FFXIV community and clearly demonstrates the difference between toxic casuals and elitists. Well done.
Something I’ve learned from a long time of playing mmos is that people who don’t want to improve won’t improve. It’s not worth giving a random player in your dungeon group advice if they don’t care about taking the game seriously or improving at it. Similarly, if you’re in a guild with players that don’t do their rotations optimally, etc, it’s not worth it to try to help them. They simply don’t care; you can’t win with these players. The only thing you can do is be in a guild/static/FC where you surround yourself with other like-minded players. So with that said; I agree that it’s good to help struggling players get better, but only if they actually want the help. If not, your words are just falling on deaf ears.
Broooo THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO I'm very new to the game, but I'm 22 and a huge video game nerd so I kinda learned the game fast, I just started doing savage content and I'm looking to beat Shiva. Guides from top players like yourself make me more excited to try out new stuff, and I love when people give me advice in videos or in-game to improve. But you touched on a very good subject, some players in this game are indeed "too casual". I love the raids and extreme fights, so I'm always giving my best and listening to every advice I can, but some players get angry whenever someone corrects them or call them out on a mistake. There will always be those kind of people, but I think you calling yourself rank 1 is(at least not for me) , a good way to let people know that you have great knowledge and credibility about the game, keep up the great videos dude!
I feel the issue is less WHAT is said and more HOW it's said. There were two times playing when I received basically the same advice on two different jobs, basically I thought I had to keep up a certain buff or mechanic that really isn't worth it when aoe-ing mobs. The first person was very nice and explained it to me well, while the other person was kind of curt. I still took both advices, but the second time it made me feel bad (still, I don't think they were TRYING to make me feel bad on purpose, so I won't assume that was their intention, but what they said came off as a bit passive-agressive). As for playing sub-optimally while doing low level content, I feel like a lot of issues may be lack of communication. When you find a group on duty finder, you can't know the other people's levels of expertise. I feel like establishing that right at the beggining is a good strategy to avoid issues (when I'm playing a class I'm not too familiar yet, I say it in chat; when I'm playing tank, I always ask the healer if they're ok with big pulls, etc). And for endgame content...well, I've never done it, but its ENDGAME content. It's implied in the name that it's going to be difficult. You should always assume that people are bringing their A game and you should too. If you're there to learn the encounter, I think you should make a party finder group rather than queue on duty roulette. And about the parsers, I feel like people are just afraid FFXIV will turn into WoW 2: electric boogaloo, especially with so many WoW players migrating to FFXIV. But, in the end, the community being "toxic" or not doesn't depend only on the people that use parsers. If you don't want the community to become "toxic", then do your best to not be "toxic" yourself. If everyone that is afraid of the community becoming "toxic" makes an effort to be nice to people, then it won't become "toxic". :)
Firstly, this video was very well organized and well thought out. Secondly, I disagree with the message behind the video (my interpretation of it). Calling out the elitists and or casulaists doesn't achieve anything. Elitism is born out of a sense of superiority, while casualism is possibly an instinctive defense, and none of the two cases above are based on rationality. No matter what happens, and where you go, there will be those who fall into the extremes, and I can promise you that the majority of people are reasonable and rational most of the time. I would instead propose the solution of surrounding yourself with people who are of the same mindset with you. In our case, people who are willing to take constructive criticism and discuss things with an open mindset. In cases where that is not possible, saying and doing nothing is probably your best bet. If you don't like what is happening in a party finder party, then leave, and blacklist the person who is behaving irrationally. At the end of the day, we play video games to have fun. What is the point if we are not having fun and arguing with someone irrationally. The one who looses out the most are the people who are arguing, because what they both loose is TIME. and TIME is more valuable than gold.
Just wanted to comment that I started following you back when you made that advanced tanking guide. I had been leveling my last two tanks and I think that video did a great job of explaining things that I didn't know or wanted to improve on. I think that there's a lot to be gained from learning from more experienced/better players - I know for me it's made me not only want to get better at my main jobs in-game, but to tank more and get better at that too. So keep up the good work! Your videos and streams have been really entertaining and informative.
Listen, as a player I like to optimize my damage a great deal and spend stupid amounts of time researching, looking at logs, setting up my UI, and practicing rotations in order to become a better player, etc However there is a big difference between various types of advice. If I'm fucking up a mechanic or I'm doing something dumb that's going to wipe us, like standing somewhere that will pull adds, then by all means say something and correct me. But if you just start rambling at me about the specifics of my rotation or gear or whatever, I'm either going to ignore your or tell you to piss off. That's the type of advise you give when asked, not the type of advise that people want unsolicited. Furthermore, if I'm tanking I'm going to go at *my* pace. I will slow down if I'm going too fast for the healer for obvious reasons, but I'm NOT going to go faster than what I'm comfortable with just to appease other party members.. If you don't like that, find another group or tank it yourself. When I'm a tank, I set the pace and path. When other people tank, I'm happy to let them set the pace and path. That's one of the benefits of tanking.
I believe if you want to chill and play FF without thinking on improvement thats super valid and there are the normal roulettes and duties for that. Not only that, harder content becomes progressively available to "casuals" through unsynced fights and thats one of the best things about FFXIV. So its not like you are being kept out of rewards cuz you play your way. Its just going to take a bit longer, and that should be ok if you are playing just to chill. The "savage" as the name says, is for someone who wants challenge, and that means improving.
Kinda. But its gets to the point where we are right now. Many, MANY people seemingly dont even know their class. "Shut up, its just a game and i want to chill" may be valid, but dont force 3 or more other player to abide to your lazy chilling. I cant say it enough, its cant be that hard to play the jobs on a basic level? Doing like 8k with the crafted gear should not be hard. That are DPS level you can reach with 70 allready, so it should be childs play to do it at 80.
I personally hate it when people answer on advice with "u don't pay my sub", no i don't but why u activly try to make the run as worst as possible by press 1-2 buttons only? My intention is never to insult other players or bring them down, i love'd to help others but most people react really toxic towards friendly help. This is one reason i never done mentor roulette again or trying to help, i got bully'd for try to help others and got insulted. So my Experience is that people love to be really bad, have horrible runs and insult everyone who is trying to help them. What most "relaxed" player's dont understand or forget is, that u dont play allone in dungeon. I'm not in a dungeon to spend 2 hours in it, i just want it done to get the exp for leveling up or tomes for weekly cap. Aslong players react with "u don't pay my sub" aslong im unwillingly to play or "carry them" threw the dungeon with the barest minimum they want to do. Because on the other hand they don't pay my sub to get them a afk dungeon run too. This is a Multi player game and people should at least try to do average, otherwise those people are more of a burden sadly....
I do love those comments you highlighted at the 30 second mark. Your tank video was geared towards a more advanced playstyle, thus why wouldn't your skill level be relevant? It essentially says, "Hey, I have good advice to offer and here are my qualifications to prove why it might be worth listening to." In what way would that ever be considered arrogant? It really baffles me just how much the FFXIV community has such a hostile reaction to just about everything that isn't praise or kind words. Of course, part of the problem is the game itself encourages that mentality.
Nicely done video. I like how you concentrated on the mindset of some people when it comes to giving advice. The fact is that to a stranger, you will seem like someone imposing on how they play. We cannot force the mindset of going beyond the bare minimum to everyone. However, maybe changing the tone of how one person may say their pointers can help a lot--but even that is a minor point. By far, in my experience in FFXIV, people are open to feedback in JP servers. I play in Elemental-Tonberry, and the people I play with are really cooperative and a bit competitive at the same time. People push each other to become better.
Part of why you see people react negatively when you give the whole "you can dps more" advice is that you can't actually see the improvement very well yourself *unless* you have a parser. The only way I have to tell who is doing more DPS is to look at the party list and check aggro because ACT refuses to work for me, so a lot of the time I just did not know if I performed better than the last except for "At least I died less." A lot of people will not be able to tell the difference in DPS and thus disregard it because "I can't see it" even if it's genuine advice. There's also the potential problem of filtering through actual advice and that smooth-brain cussing out the healer for DPSing instead of healing despite the group getting a clear with no deaths. If you happen to meet a lot of toxic people, legitimately good advice can get lost because of a preexisting bad experience with people telling you how to play.
As someone whose been around FFXIV since the beginning, the attitudes towards parses and logs in general has been around since Binding Coil, however it was must less serious in ARR. It wasn't until people hit Alexander in HW and the mass amount of FC and Linkshell groups that disbanded cause they couldn't progress(Usually Pepsiman) that attitudes changed to be much more strict. But you could also say that it was destined to go that direction and Alexander just made it happen faster. For me personally I was a tank main for over a decade until Alexander, the major change from doing your best as a tank, to everyone expecting you max dps over anything else was a quick meta change I couldn't adapt to, even me doing 90%+ dps wasn't enough for many. Happily things have improved in the modern day, people dont just look at the damage % anymore and look at the bigger picture. However overall the system as it is is here to stay.
Thank you for pointing out tocicity exists at both ends of the spectrum. I've met just as many DPS who don't want to do positionals and scholars that autofollow the tank as I have people who shame others for not doing savage or not having orange parses. It's as you say, we should all strive to improve and do our best. Yes, people have different skill levels and different amounts of time to dedicate to the game (most people understand this), but that's no excuse for ignoring basics such as stack markers and giving people the time they need to learn because these simple things"ruin your fun."
I definitely agree with the points presented, and they have helped me examine some of my own mindset relating to advice and coaching. However there is also a middle ground here that, while not inherently relevant to your point, is an important one to address. And that is the “casualite”. As a League of Legends player, I dealt with a lot of toxicity. People telling me to go die, racial slurs, ? ping spam were all a part of that. But there was also the advice goblins or “casualites”: People who would constantly spam chat with telling the team what to do, while actively giving out incorrect information. “We should do this other map objective” at a time where we could have just won the game. “You should be helping me” at a time where their own poor decisionmaking cost them a death. The problem with “everyone is just trying to help” as a mentality is that a lot of the time the person offering advice is just incorrect, and that can spell disaster for the rest of the group. Now, as you climb rankings this problem becomes less and less common, but it’s still a very present issue in the version of the game most players experience. What you’ve described as casualism is a mindset borne (at least partially) from casualites talking down upon lower or evenly ranked players with things that are simply incorrect.
Yesterday a healer said to me "don't use blackest night so often" after we cleared a dungeon and then left. I pm'ed them asking what they meant, since I'm always eager to improve, but didn't get a response. I still don't understand what's wrong with using it every trash pull and tank buster. If it gets destroyed, isn't it basically "free" mitigation? Also, I agree with the video, but, as a new player, gotta say that I get tons of passive agressive vibes from players, both the person that doesn't want to improve, but also from those who're giving their "advices".
Not sure why they would tell you not to abuse TBN, it's core to DRK's gameplan. Not to mention, it's also a free Dark Arts when the shield breaks, so not only are you taking less damage, you get a free Edge/Flood to refresh your damage buff AND do more damage to boot. It's my favorite thing about playing the class, especially in EX content where the busters will pretty much always break the barrier.
Appreciate the content. Thanks your tank guide I approach new dungeons with a lil more confidence. Mainly in that I let everyone know it's my first tme tanking that dungeon. Used to hate aurum Vale, but it's one of my favorite ARR dungeons since tanking it. Understanding the potential of the party has really made tanking go smoothly. Thanks for your tips!
I once had a Scholar in an end lvl 70 dungeon that was ONLY using Adlo for tank! NOTHING else, so DPS dying from AOEs and so on! (One DPS before left I was the substitute and then I saw why he left, but he was lvl ~70 beginner so I tried to give him some advices) The moment I said "use succor before pulls, it should relief a bit of healing stress and you could damage too. ;) Main heal here!" (Because I joined as RDM) He answered "You are condescending!" What the?! What rude thing did I say?! In that moment I didnt know what to answer! His most gear was lvl 66 or 68 LVL equip! So that wasnt the only time I tried to be nice and help someone and getting told I am the toxic one just by wanting to help him. So what you say is really something I appreciate, those people should start to realize that their reaction is toxic and dont help anyone, it was more condescending ignoring my advices and letting us die the whole time! The good thing is, because someone left before I didnt got a punishment for leaving that sht party again!
Something to keep in mind, adding a wink ;) can be perceived as passive aggressive to a lot of people. Maybe that's why they thought you were condescending (even if you're not)?
One of the biggest issues I’ve seen with Casual Players being toxic is their refusal to change anything about their play style. The “you don’t pay my sub” bullshit being so prevalent is such an entitled way of thinking and it makes things a pain to communicate if you’re not sure if the person is gonna snap at you or respond like an adult.
People giving advice is not the problem. People getting annoyed that others arent able to implement the advice are. When I was new to this game and started tanking I had this healer who told me to use cd’s more often. (I had no idea what a cd was at the time. The abbreviation that is ) when I asked what that was they told me I shouldn’t be a tank. He could have just told me to use rampart or shadow wall during add pulls (in my mind at the time bosses should have done more dmg than adds, thats why I saved them for the boss). My point is that as long as its constructive its good, but a lot of the time its not. Edit: not shadow wall. This was level 30 as drk
It's honestly painful in EU servers. Sometimes you just want to explain a mechanic, or what the party/player is doing wrong, only to see them ignore everything you said and do the same mistakes over again. I think FFXIV has this huge problem where people assume that if you point out an issue with the party, or even try to mention improvements, you are suddenly branded a "WoW refugee" or you're toxic, I don't know why there's people so afraid of WoW that treat it like it's the plague.
I agree with every point you made! I like to mentor newbies and try to help them learn but in my experience it often falls on deaf ears. I'll explain a mechanic or explain how/when to heal and I'll get no response and I won't see them take the advice and continue struggling in the dungeon. One big reason why the elitism/casual toxicity issue isn't easily fixable is that a lot of players who give advice tend to frame it as an order or even say it in a mean way because they forget to consider the newbie's perspective. "use aoe please" may not have elitist intentions, but without giving an explanation for why using AoE skills is better for certain situations, it can easily be perceived as being told what to do. It's not exactly helpful or informative if all one says is "stop using medica" or "refresh dots" to people who are new to WHM and think they're efficiently healing by using Medica instead of Cure or a DPS who doesn't even know what DoT means, if that makes sense.
Finally someone said it on youtube, I'm tired of people saying "I play how I want" after giving advice, but then forget they play with 3/7 other people. I think it goes both ways, if you want to play how you want that's totally fine, but then don't expect others to put up with you if they don't like how you play. I usually like helping someone to get better because at least for me that's why I play games, to improve and I have fun in doing so, but I think there is a problem with the game if silently kicking someone, who is SEVERELY under performing, is easier than having to deal with him in the chance he goes full defensive mode after offering basic advice. Now you were asking about my reaction to you saying you are a rank 1 Tank? Well obviously it means you know your shit regarding the game and achieved something most players (including me) didn't, and I respect you for that. BUT I don't really like the title of the video that made you popular and also made me watch you ("FFXIV: Advanced Tanking Guide From a Rank 1 Tank") because imo it sounded a bit clickbaity. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with you saying it in the video to emphasize on your knowledge or the thumbnail showing it, but my first reaction to the title was something like: 1. I hope he is actually Rank 1 and not just doing it for the clicks and 2. if he actually is Rank 1 I hope he has some good advice I can learn from and doesn't just brag with it Thankfully that wasn't true, but that was my first thought when I saw your video and it took some days of it showing in my recommendations before I actually decided to watch it. Would a different title had been better? Idk, probably not, it did get many views. Just my thoughts, feel free to disagree with my opinion.
This only makes sense in a single context. That is if the person has decided this information is relevant to them. The first step anyone giving advice should take, in fact the ONLY single step that defines what you do as a non casual player to aid another player is ask/define : Does this person believe what is being said is relevant to them. If you determine this person does NOT think it is (for whatever the reason is they think this) your help is instantly NOT help. It doesn't matter how much sense it makes to say it, or how relevant the information is to the player that "needs" to have the correct information. You are only being helpful if the person wants the help OR thinks / believes they need it. If they do not - your job is to understand that and move on. An OFFER of assistance must proceed assistance. If a person doesn't have enough money to make a purchase, you offer, if they refuse you do NOT give them the money, even if you KNOW they won't be able to make the purchase without your help. In this context i'd think everything you've said is spot on. If you disregard a persons reason for refusing help, then you are establishing a toxic (or have the potential to) relationship with said individual. The emphasis is less on the content of the help, how correct it is etc. I believe it's just a part of natural interactions, we don't have to be talking about a game - and i think it's important to divorce this idea from games to better understand what is happening. In ANY aspect of life, if you try to give a person help that does NOT want it, the help is irrelevant and the focus of ire becomes the struggle of two humans engaged in a pushing match of pride/ideals. Again, it seems you are only correct if it is established BEFORE hand that the intention is to critique behavior and advise for better play. NEVER help someone that is fine, not having your help - that way you are not toxic. Example: state before you enter the dungeon that you intend to point out when people are doing a sub optimal thing. Ask before you've even fought the first mob, whether or not it's cool to point out peoples mistakes for correction. If they do not agree, do NOT advise that person. If they do - advise that person. Establish the guidelines of your behavior, so that people know what to expect from you before you even start.
i wanna contribute my thoughts as someone who is in the middle of the two extremes. im definitely not hardcore, and have never gotten into high level raiding. but i've done a few extreme trials, and i do research and practice to make sure im optimising play as i progress content. cause of that, i've been on both sides. when im matched with newer players, i try to give them tips on how to play their job optimally. 95% of the time people are happy to receive help, but of course there are occasional people who hate any criticism (like the dancer who used dances almost exclusively outside of combat). if someone pushes back, it basically means they will refuse any help and its better to move on. on the other hand, i've gotten plenty of tips from more experienced players. im particularly new to tanking, so i get things wrong, or dont know things about the dungeon. sometimes tips sound a little passive agressive, but i try to remember that its hard to carry tone over text, and its easy to assume the worst. people just wanna get through content best they can. again, there are really rude people (i was once kicked out of a heavensward dungeon after the first pull cause i was a brd with a SLIGHTLY low item level weapon), but most of the time its fine even if you dont care about efficiency, or just wanna play solo, i get it. but it is inherently a team based game, by buying it and playing it you have essentially agreed that you have to work as a team, and people should swallow their pride a little bit and take tips. be as bad as you want if you're solo in the overworld lol
It really depends on how the advice is worded too. The best way to show someone you mean no harm is to find something to compliment them on in terms of their play. “You we’re doing a really good job in this section, but here’s how you could improve here”. I get that during a difficult fight you can’t exactly send long messages, but curt messages online like “can you aoe please” can come across as curt and unkind
I respect your video and advice but as a healer since beta and a healer in other MMO's I have started to really hate healing on a healer cause im still expected to dps a significant amount. Back in vanilla ARR raiding a healers main job was to just heal and if you can dps you can. It has turned into a "Do the absolute bare minimum of healing and dps as much as your GCD allows" and it honestly disgusts me. If I wanted to play a dps I would have been a dps, and its because of that that I have officially quit healing as of the end of this tier. I took the advice, watched the vids, practiced the opener (which it seriously bothers me cause so much is wasted) and I hated every min of it.
Elitism and criticism often go hand in hand, because you know and play better so you want to give out criticism for reasons. I believe it is all about the tone, context, behavior, when and how you present it. I met: A person who refused to heal people who made mistakes in mechanics and vocal about it. A person who used Savage and Ultimate clears to insult casuals who refuse to try those content. A person who used E8S clear to refuse explanations and reasons in an argument because they are obviously better. These 3 cases were from my personal experience in FFXIV. Its pretty rare considering the amount of nice people ive met via DF over a year. If you are being considerate, kind, respectful and patient, your elitism wouldn't even be noticed by the receivers, you will just be a nice person giving out advice. If the receiver responds with hostility, in my opinion, apologize and explain your intention because they may not be in a good mood, and dont want to receive any advice or criticism. Well, being a decent person is usually the answer for all of this.
Leveling roulette tanking story(short): Haukke manor as a paladin. Told group ‘ima pretend I tanked this one once already.’ The two dps supported me and one replied ‘it’s ok we gotchu.’ We started the run and MCH went forward and pulled a mob or a group after I engaged one group - easily manageable but I got a feeling the healer may not be comfortable. Heals we’re coming a tad late and not enough for these big multi on-the-go pulls. Then, when MCH said something among the lines of ‘pull all the mobs you want!’ I went and tagged a group at a time in this one run pull that I died and healer was like ‘Why.’ The two dps were still supportive, saying, ‘we got this!’ And then healer left. 😐 As a tank, I learned which mobs can be pulled altogether in parts of the map to make the run just a bit faster. Although, I felt the run became more dedicated for my experience that we left the healer out. I felt bad. Usually, I’d ask the healer if they’re ok with big pulls but the MCH was encouraging multi string pulls that I went at his pace instead. Feelsbadguys 🤦🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
Good video and I'm so glad that people are pointing out the toxic casual mindset because I've seriously been in groups where they've had this mindset and I was framed as "hateful toxic elitist parser" because i tried to offer advice on how to use MP wisely as a healer (back during 4.x) and it's constantly framed as wrong that I've said this like, maybe once or twice by this group, as some example of "why it's super harmful to play with parsers" or some crap like that. Not once did they consider the fact that because of me they were clearing content they couldn't even dream to do and even during 4.2 they still struggled with Lakshmi Ex but would expect me to go like every other day. It's draining and people should be aware of the fact that like, sure you can play for fun like you said, and still improve on how they play :s I really hope that more people see this video and learn from it rather than fall back on their own excuses to not improve.
Elitism is never good, but great leadership is. Be a leader and believer in your fans and your game. Keep up the good "casualism" idealism and you will be adored!
As a new player I’d love it if people gave helpful feedback so I could be a better tank. I’m always worried about getting flamed for some screwup or for something I don’t know.
There two types of people who view knowledge. The first uses knowledge as a step to empower themselves above others. Secondly you have those who use knowledge to help those around them and to encourage improvement. Sry just something I thought about when thinking about the bad and good of elitism. (I’m not trying to show elitism in a bad light)
If someone wants to improve their play, they will ask someone for help. The reason people get defensive when 'offered help' is because of tone in which it is offered. It usually comes across as 'hey quit wasting my time and fix yourself'. We don't want this game to ever turn into World of Warcraft with it's addons and toxic community. Any dps above clearing the fight is a waste. Encourage those that seek to improve and leave those that don't alone. I understand your video. I used to be a high end raider and mythic+ key pusher, but I came here after getting burned out on the demands put on me as a player in a game I was using to relax in. Thanks for the video.
I actually left a raid party because of a toxic person who joined us because someone else couldn't come that time. Said toxic person (who had cleared the raid before) went through the ACT logs after the raid and convinced the raid leader that I sucked because about once every 2 minutes I had about 8 seconds without any damage output. I was playing Dancer and despite my best attempts of defending myself everyone just listened to that guy... Well every 2 Minutes I have "Technical Step" ready... first there are 2.5 seconds cooldown from whatever skill I used before "Technical Step" then 1 second before I can use the first step, and finally 4 seconds in total for the steps before using the finish, unless I am mistaken that makes 7.5 seconds of cooldown. Unfortunately people only looked at the delays between DPs and not for the cause which means that they told me that I should get better to no longer have those gaps instead of caring about the reason. so after that outsider poisoned the group we had I decided to tell them to fuck off because I would leave the raid party.
Honestly in other games I'm high key paranoid on asking advice because of how often they were condescending or I was excluded from raids because I didn't reach 1 mil combat points (I have 760k and that's already higher than average players), but asking for advice in ff14 has kinda eased up my tension and anxiety for raids.
The line is very unclear between taking things as toxic and taking things as helpful. I think a big part of that is due to no voice chat. I think communication is key. Great video!
I think the TLDR of elitism is: if you keep it to the circle of players you play with and everyone is on the same page, it's not an issue. If you enforce your standards / play-style onto others and judge them for their own play-style when you're in an unorganised environment, then it's not ok.
I'm so used to watching MMO/MOBA guides where people are all "I'm x rank", "I'm a challenger x", etc. I can't understand how someone would think that's bragging. It's just saying "here's what my qualifications are"
I feel like this video explained very well, how people just assume that if someone gives them advice, then that must mean that that person looks down on them or regards themselves too highly. As a casual player myself I don't put emphasis on playing optimally, because my goal from the start has never been to clear or even efficiently farm endgame raiding content. But never once did I think FF logs was an issue that would cause toxicity in the community. Not even once have I ever encountered anyone being openly hostile towards me just because my dps should be higher. When people gave me advice they did it in a neutral/informative or even friendly manner. It's mostly the other side of the argument where things get messy, at least from my experience so far. On one hand "casualists" insist that everyone should be allowed to play the game as they want, but on the other hand, by rejecting all feedback and lashing out, they force their group to go along with what they believe to be the "right" way. In my opinion that's just hypocritical and definitely more toxic than a simple neutral comment on how you could improve, even if you may not have asked for that comment. It's a multiplayer game after all, there will always be communication and if you just basically tell people to keep their opinions to themselves just because you don't care, then it's not their problem. It's yours. And there are definitely better ways to deal with that, for example like actively looking for people to play with that don't mind, or share your mindset.
That being said, overall I feel like FFXIV has a great community. The level of toxicity is way lower than what I am used to from other MMO's, or even just the internet in general and in my experience it is usually very easy to get along with people, even though I don't consider myself much of a people person.
I think a lot of it comes down to people who come from other MMO's. They associate parse and other tools as a way to harass people about their performances, not to say some people don't use them that way (saw someone do this before) but a lot of folks are afraid 14 because the amount of popularity is gaining as of late, will turn into the next WoW in terms of toxicity.
While I have no problems in receiving feedback, I am not as fast to react to things as other players, it takes me a bit of getting used to. The only problem that has an encounter with Parse came in the form of telling me how to do my job. Basically telling me WHICH spells to use for healing when I had no trouble keeping up with healing in the first place. (no one has wipe cuz I didn't heal enough if anything I healed too much sometimes?) having people telling me I should use certain spells just turns me off because like I said, never been an issue for me. Basically trying to control how I should play.
Thank you.
You're the kind of player that makes all of us believe advice doesn't always fall on deaf ears. If only there were more people open to actual criticism instead of going fully defensive about literally anything...
@@Miyao05 That honestly depends. If that advice was basically telling you to not use Cure 1/Benefic 1/Physick, then they were completely right. Especially for the former.
Cure 1 is a noob trap some people think is good because of the freecure proc. A proc, mind you, that is 15% chance. That's insanely low and unreliable. The proc is there to "maybe" help you out when shit has already hit the fan, not as a tool to manage your MP (you already have Lucid Dreaming, Thin Air and Assize for that). Another noob trap is has is the fact the cast is shorter than Cure II, but the fact it's still the same recast time (whatever your GCD is at, so probably between 2.40 and 2.50 seconds) makes it so there's still gonna be the same time in-between heals, making it even more worthless. In 99% of the cases, Cure 2 will be better.
As for Benefic 1, casting one GCD worth of healing is always gonna be better than needing 2 to do the same, especially when you take into consideration healing per second. What is better, 800 potency in 5 seconds or 700 in 2.5 seconds? You already know the answer, especially if the tank is dropping like a brick.
Physick does have a place when you just need to heal one target (not just shield them with an Adlo, but actually heal them for a specific HP-based mechanic) really fast and your OGCDs/Aetherflow stacks are down, but again, that's basically for emergencies.
I'm not excusing the fact they may have told you this in a harsher language, but they probably weren't wrong.
@@Miyao05 probably they adviced you on how to heal more efficently and you just rejected everything because "its fine we survive", so you're being the topic of this video
@@Miyao05 I started as a WHM and I would say that some of the advice helped. About which spells to use, it really depends, someone told me to use Cure over Cure 2 but that was for the Freecures and MP management and avoiding a death in a bind due to the higher casting times. Also you need to know that healing draws the most aggro and if the tanks are new then the overhealing would not only deplete you MP in some cases but also take aggro off the tank. Still not sure about the Cure 3 over media advice I got but their generally is a reason behind them and most do clarify why to do what they suggested.
I had an interaction with one of these "toxic casuals" that i think most people will have had. And if you haven't yet ; you will at some point. I was doing leveling roulette and got the nightmare that is aurum vale. I was the tank and i noticed that the healer was new. So i tried doing smaller pulls on the infamous 1st room. It was going fine but then of course the healer stood out in the middle of the room and ended up pulling a bunch of roaming adds. And you already know what happens next, they couldn't handle the extra damage being done to me and we died. So I put into chat, 'If you come stand over on the wall with us you can avoid pulling unnecessary adds.'And the response I got was, 'Oh i'm sorry I guess i'm not as much of an EXPERT as you. I'll see myself out seeing as how i'm not good enough to be in YOUR party.' And they left. They fucking left on the 1st pull of aurum vale. I was a tank so i knew if we didnt find another healer i could just go right back in to queue and be fine, but god knows how long the dps had to wait. Luckily though after a few minutes we got a new healer and the dung went smooth. But damn that kind of mentality that any advice means I think i'm a god and i'm above you is so awful. I don't think like that. you know why? BECAUSE WE WERE ALL NEW AT ONE POINT.
If they react this way to being HARMLESSLY criticized in a game I wonder how they handle real life in general without snapping out, like what the actual frick?
I think it's how you delivered the message that made it come off as "sarcastic". It's somewhat similar to telling my boyfriend "If you didn't look at that girl over there, you would not have missed what I said!" lol. I think it's very important to try and be as "friendly" as possible, because we don't know how they will take it. There is no voice tone in text chat, so you can easily be misinterpreted. As a tank, you could tell them something like "Hey team, let's try to stay close to the wall, so we won't pull unnecessary mobs" This give them more of an "US" statement instead of being singled out.
@@a3lorenzo it's true and a good general advice! As much as I think the healer he had was overly sensitive, it's always good to have a more cautious approach.
I tanked vale one time, had 2 returning players and one new player. Returning players 1 asks for a refresh so I'm like ya don't stand in the yellow, hug left wall I'll explain bosses when we get to them. The gate drops, I pull first mob. Returning players and new player die standing in yellow, returning 1 pulls add and dies before I can get it off him. Party wipe and I was left alone in the dungeon with in 1 minute if the thing actually starting
@@a3lorenzo i would agree with that, however in that particular situation, the guy that left probably would have seen even the most friendly effort to give advice as condescending or passive-aggressive. It truly is all about how people choose to read things, some people are just like that. I can see how one COULD read OP's advice as sarcastic, but realistically how many people WOULD actually do that? Well, probably more than I would hope. But anyway my point is simply, that in general I think his advice would be perceived as quite neutral and most people who do read something sarcastic/toxic into it, would most likely see even a friendlier attempt as fake, passive-aggressive and/or condescending.
Context is everything, people are infinitely more offended when they are given advice they didn't ask for. I also feel that the ffxiv community whether it be elite players or casuals ones are quite passive aggressive especially in PF which just piles more onto the problem of advice being just that.
This.
There is alot of great people in ff14 but a lot of people only want to claim that the community is awesome and not look at the blatant passive aggressive nature a lot of players have.
It's ridiculous too when the same people that think you're an elitist and arrogant for starting the Rank 1 Tank Guide video that way are ALSO the type of people that think anyone that gives them advice is looking down on them. If you don't want anyone to tell you how to play the game, then why click on a video titled "FFXIV: Advanced Tanking Guide From a Rank 1 Tank." That's literally the bike stick meme.
In my opinion, starting the video that way just establishes credibility. I don't want any guide from someone that's 50th percentile on fflogs for example.
@@masterdann1 Except the many cases on TalesFromDF where runs were incomplete or the toxic casual stirring up a ruckus for sucking had to be kicked or leaving before progress could continue.
It would be nice if the game itself did a better job of teaching its player base. An extreme example but I started playing in ARR and didn’t understand the concept of gcds and weaving ogcds between them until heavensward.
In that situation I didn’t even know what parsing was and had no idea I was even doing anything wrong.
I think it's important to keep in mind that the UA-cam comments will contain every kind of person and mindset. To me, stating that you're a rank 1 player made me think, 'Oh, cool, so he really knows his shit.' It made me take your advice more seriously. And to other people, it clearly turned them off or made them think that you're some flavour of snobby elitist.
Ultimately, Lynx? I suggest making peace with the fact that your approach is always going to leave some people out in the cold. Stay true to your own approach, and people who like it (like me) will stay true to you accordingly. Keep up the good work.
I agree, I'd rather be honest and speak my mind.
@@NamesLynx Going off of what Mister Bones said, I also agree since stating your achievements give your advice merit and weight to them. Keep up the work.
I believe how you explain things to people is more important than what you are actually saying. I do believe in making players more efficient, ff14 even has a novice network to support that very idea. However I have seen plenty of cases in this game and others where simple advice is often understood differently from person to person.
For example "you not going ever be good if you dont start using ability x more" has the exact same meaning as "hey, I bet you could probably increase your dps by a lot if you start using ability x more". One is outwardly friendly, the other just sounds like a prick and probably gonna be the one to vote you out of the party for failing a mechanic you missed on your first attempt in a dungeon.
Also forewarning, isn't parsing and logging technically against TOS? If so, I don't think its a good idea to be announcing on youtube that you use them.
Casualism 101: “When you pay for my sub you can tell me how to play.”
It's so strange, when you listed your achievements I just saw it as you showing us your credibility. I didn't see it as elitist at all...
#MeToo
Right ?? It's so tiresome to have to try and cover everyone, or as many people as we can into something, a cake is only so big for a group of people to enjoy, not everyone can have a piece of it, he really didn't have to go out of his way for them, not this far for something so obvious
That's something that really gets to me regarding anything, not even 14 or games in general. I'm proud of my achievements - so why should I not talk about them? If someone won an award at an event, are they not allowed to be excited and proud of their achievement without it being snobby? I guarantee every person that complains about someone talking about their high parses, have AT LEAST once in their life talked about something they were proud of.
I found it reassuring as someone who's just starting the game it gives me a sense of security that im not learning something that is totally wrong or suboptimal
I view elitism as inherently meaning that you're looking down on other people as a person, rather than acceptance that you're just more experienced/skilled than others at this particular thing. In that sense, people who are unable to take advice are often just elitists of their own form "I'm a better person than them, I don't need their advice" because they refuse to accept that someone could have more skill or knowledge at something that honestly, is ultimately irrelevant because it is just a game. But they refuse to accept that they aren't the best at everything they do inherently.
Granted, on the other hand I do think people have experience being told obviously wrong advice by obnoxious assholes before and have grown to buil up this wall. If you don't know much about the game, it can be hard to tell the difference between skilled person who knows what they're talking about, and an overly confidant idiot who doesn't.
Hardcore players can be elitist but the majority aren't because its always the few self entitled ones who ruin it for the rest
@@PhoenixRisingX Yep. I've raided with a few. They're excellent players but oh boy, the ego can be massive. Fortunately, the vast majority aren't like this. But you tend to remember the players who cause more drama than the ones trying to prevent it.
@@PhoenixRisingX it never the minority sadly hardcore players are the best example of players killing there gamrs
Good job mate.
You actually broke down the current internet arguments going on for FF
Actually your "You pull you tank" Vid has been a main point of contention in arguments atm
Fantastic video, well explained, and coming from a good place. I think one of the main issues is connected to how "text" messages are perceived in the moment. So happy I discovered this channel, keep up the great work. :)
I 100% agree I should've mentioned that the way you word things is important
I think what you're missing in this video, is proper interpersonal communication skills. Ultimately, you need to learn how to better approach people with criticism and advice. Some people are new to savage and nervous that they will be immediately bombarded with criticism and I empathize with people like that. Watching this video, i can't help but feel that you're very apathetic to people not " on your level" . The reason people are turned off is because you present yourself as a cold, apathetic person. If interpersonal communication classes have taught me anything, it's that a lot more people need to take those classes. At the end of the day your ability to communicate to your team ( static or not) properly will present yourself to be either an encoraging leader or a elitist boss. If you feel that i'm saying this without evidence, let me show you an example from your own video. When the tank was not doing his rotation correctly your response was "can you aoe please?" your response could come off as belittling since your tone cannot be read through chat. Although the tone in your video only made it clear that you came about it with frustration and annoyance. I understand, i get the feeling of having to deal with a player who doesn't know their class or mechanics but if you're going to comment about it you need to go about it in a way where you are doing it with respect and consent. Like maybe saying " Hey, did you know that paladins have a aoe rotation? I'd be happy to tell you them if you want!" It's not perfect but it's a lot better than the prior since the prior comes off like your annoyed and being passive aggressive. I know that may annoy you, but if you want to actually be helpful, you need to put the work in. You weren't being helpful because you assumed that he knew about the aoe rotation. He more than likely reacted like that because he probably didn't know and telling you to not " tell him what to do" was an easy enough rebuttal. " you need to remember this is a team game..." exactly, so act with compassion and empathy when confronting someone with helpful advice. To conclude, is elitism okay? No. But also what you needed to answer, should players that want to give advice learn basic interpersonal communication skills, well if you want to avoid conflict and actually be helpful, then yes. No one is asking you to be perfect though. We all can get passive aggressive and respond with announce, but the more aware you are the better you'll be off. This is a long read and i'm sure i myself maybe came about this harshly, I apologize if this criticism offended you but i hope you still understood what I was trying to conclude.
very well sayed. In the end its just a game and nothing more.
In the end players need to get off their high horse. If you aren't doing aoe rotation on a large group as a PLD you are likely a newish player. If you are new and can't take any sort of advice well, that's being a crappy player. I'm not there to create a 5 minute essay in telling you what to do, because a level 80 add pull isn't the time for it. "Use aoe please, it's higher potency" if this triggers you, that's not my problem. Turn off chat if you are new and just want to play a team game without listening to any advice given...
I feel a little bad for people with the mentality of "all criticism of my performance is a direct attack on me as a person", because that kind of mentality is rarely limited to just video games and it is guaranteed to cause them problems and misery in other areas of life. And there's really not a lot anyone can do to get them to see that because that mentality is so self-preserving.
it's likely a defensive mechanism so not only it'll cause them problems and misery going forward, they're also almost guaranteed to have had problems in the past to act so harshly with that behavior, which is double sad
When I first started playing this game I tried to pug A11s back in Heavensward as a Warrior and I had no idea what I was doing. One of my friends who helped me through the start of the game told me that Warrior is an off tank role so I always tried to off tank every fight I could and was too nervous to main tank. During one of my pug sessions in A11s I had someone confront me telling me that I should be main tanking because I am a Warrior. I was anxious to try but I gave it my best shot but no matter how hard I tried I couldn't hold aggro on the boss and the dps kept ripping the boss off me. I had no idea how to hold emnity because I had never main tanked before. The person that told me to main tank didn't even get mad, they just asked me if I knew what I was doing and I explained that I had never main tanked before and he took the next 10-20 minutes to give me an opening rotation and told me to practice it on the boss. To my surprise the rest of the party were completely chill with me even though I was wasting their time. The nerves got to me too hard at the time and I couldn't do the opening rotation properly under pressure so I decided to leave the party and afterwards I practiced the rotation on a training dummy for the next hour until I got it down. The person that told me to main tank was never aggressive with me and I never took it as him flaming me. I took it as an opportunity to learn my class and improve as a tank. Him and everyone else in the party was very nice and extremely patient with me even though I was wasting their time in this A11s pug. If it wasn't for that 1 person calling me out for being bad I don't think I would have improved to the point I'm at now.
I had a "toxic casual" once in the level 80 roulette. I was healing, and the tank (who had the full 480 set) was tanking two enemies at a time and refused to pull. Keep in mind that I do the high end raiding with healers, so Amaurot is an absolute joke to heal for. I asked him "hey, would you be able to pull more? I can keep you up no prob". His response was "I'm the tank and I'm pulling small. I don't care what you think, and if you pull any enemies I'm letting you die.". So I proceeded to just parse instead of heal because obviously two enemies at a time can't kill him. He immediately starts ranting that "healers don't get a say in pulling, just heal me.". Needless to say, I just didn't wanna put up with that anymore and left the dungeon because I didn't want to wait a thousand years to beat Amaurot. This guy starts sending "Tell"s at me half an hour later throwing every insult he could think of. And that was the first person I blacklisted
Still remember when in e6s we(7ppl static) told red mage to not use his lb3, because it is deal less damage. He start "wall" every pull and called us toxic.
Well fuck this guy 😸👍
I understand your point about him being a dick.. but i hate it when people tells me how to play.. i respond in a nice way tho not like the guy you encountered. If they get mad at me as a tank i tell them that they shouldve qued up as a tank and pull however they like..
Ralph Ragub you’re part of the problem :s
@@paynne You're the type of casual Lynx talks about in his videos. The healer insists they can keep you alive, you're the only person holding yourself back. Pushing yourself out of your comfort zone once will allow you to improve as a player and you will realise big pulls really aren't that hard or scary.
I think there's a couple of important points to address from a more casual perspective. First, giving advice and/or helping others is not a zero sum game. The vast majority of people I've seen who complain about their advice not being welcomed are, frankly, just not really giving advice in a way that someone is going to welcome. Giving advice or guidance is as much in the way you do it as it is in the content of said advice. And that's often where the perspective of someone being elitist comes in. Second, I really do think it depends a lot on the content you're actually doing. If you're doing EX and up content? Yeah, everyone should be on their game and either know what they're doing or should be very willing to learn. If you're just doing your daily roulette? Eh, it sucks when you get a group that isn't very good but I fail to see how it's that big of a deal. Not saying you can't or shouldn't give guidance but you need to accept that, in that content, some people just don't care as much as you do or aren't as good as you are. As said in the video, it's a team game but that means the top players have to go down as much as the bottom players can go up. It's not a one way street. If you're going into your daily roullettes and expecting high level play from everyone involved then that's an expectation of your own creation. We know the game doesn't require top level play from the vast majority of it's content so it's honestly pretty silly of you to expect everyone to play at top level just because you're in the room.
Rank 1? I don't even know what that means😎
(no seriously I don't im pretty new to the game)
Haha it just means I did more damage than any other player of my class on a boss fight.
Probably a bad term, because when I heard him say that, I immediately assumed it means he hadn't leveled up yet.
@@anthonydelfino6171 that would be lvl one..... and as Lynx already said... he does a shit ton of damage for a tank and cares a whole lot about how he plays
This has been a touchy subject ever since MMOs and different tiers of players existed...
Personally I try to make it as fun as possible for the target person so that I don't come across as being bossy or wanting people to do something that I want (even if it's a better playstyle statistically). I don't think it's so much about telling people what to do and when to do it but rather, more of how it's being told. In groups outside of raids and statics where DPS checks aren't a thing, it's generally okay for me if players dorked around and are a little less efficient. Outright trolling and wasting other people's time is still a no-no, though.
Raids are a different matter altogether, everyone there has a completely different mindset, so constructive criticism can be given without much repercussions because everyone understands the need for progress.
Being able to distinguish the two types of content and knowing when to be laxed is key to a more fun experience in FFXIV, IMHO. Personally i'd rather play with a less capable but positive person than someone on the opposite spectrum - being excellent at gameplay but horrible with interactions.
Same here.
Btw Meru, doesn't belong any about FFXIV content, but how come you've my cat pic as your profile pic? 😁
Being a great player and being an elitist are related, but they don't have to be. You can act like an elitist and suck. It's more of the attitude towards others. You can be the best player in the world, but if you bail after one wipe, what good are you?
Back and Wrath of the lich King, was in a dungeon with a death knight, they were super OP in that expansion. He had awesome gear. But he was doing less DPS than the tank. Obviously he had level boosted and bought as much gear as he could, but didn't know how to play. And he was bossing people around like he was God. 😆
"You can act like an elitist and suck."
We usually call them crowns/mentors lol.
@M. Woller Found one lmao
Someone who's fucking sick of _explaining_ Ancient Flare to sprouts three times a week, and getting _four_ fuckin' raid wipes because some goldfish-attention-spanned ADHD patient just couldn't bugger themselves to stand on their relevant control point _on 7+ year old content._
@@terrellcole7633 That's so on point, always had some random person with a crown come out of nowhere and tell me how to dps, tank, or heal like buddy, I could leave this run and grab that crown status anytime I want 🙄
The reality is there's a difference between being casual and refusing to learn your job. I consider myself casual yet I took lots of advice to get where I am as a tank main to clear savage and I consider myself a pretty good tank all in all. If I see someone struggling or doing something wrong I feel obligated to give them time to acclimate and some helpful tips. So much of the game is learned from experience and interacting with others.
thank you for addressing this. toxic casuals is a huge problem in the ff community, and people treat it like its an unforgivable sin to try to say or suggest otherwise. I wish more ff14 youtubers would talk about this, because it really is some bullshit if you have to worry if you'll be jailed or banned because you pointed out how to play better to someone thats very obviously not playing their class right (healers not helping with dps when everyone's full, ice mages, the "you pull it you tank it" mentality, caster red mage hardcasting verthunder/veraero without using melee at all).
It's just gotten to the point where i turn my chat off completely if im not playing with friends, and talk as little as possible if at all. and if i get stuck with any of those gems, i just leave and eat the 30m lfg ban. it's just not worth potentially losing my account because some toxic casual decided to be assmad at someone for giving tips on how to play their class.
Ice mages is a funny argument when someone science'd themselves as both an ice mage and later a *THUNDER* mage and STILL did more dps than about 60 percent of the accessiible playerbase in their data center!
@@dragonmangames2523 do you have a source for that? I would honestly love to see that.
Keep up the great content
Thanks :)
Im a PS4 player myself, so getting logs is tricky. I've spoken to my raid leader about it because I personally *WANT* to improve, and could tell that his main reaction in it was worry over how I'd take the criticism. That by itself is a red flag, to have people react that way. I mean, we all want to be good players, right? So take all the help you can get.
Damn, good video.
I've got kicked out of a group because i asked the tank to stop moving around so much (i was mnk), and right before the last boss, those people kicked me. But used my dps, that was some hardcore casualism
I think there should be a separation of expectations between casual content like dungeons and high tier raiding. Not everyone wants to clear casual content (for me its every single dungeon) as fast as possible. Once I got into a party where the other 3 players wanted to explore every room in Satasha :)
people dont take advice not because they think the better players are toxic, simply because they think it makes them look weak, its a very unfortunate thing but its still a core part of humanity itself.
Finally someone said it. The amount of times I've been cussed out over gently implying the healer should DPS instead of standing totally still AFK half of the fight, the 4k DPS MCH in Qitana spamming 1-2-3 on 8+ targets should use AoE and maybe go to The Balance to learn some of the basics of their class, the healer who only spams medica in a dungeon even if the tank is the only one getting hurt or at full HP should DPS more, only heal when needed, and maybe throw a regen, a cure, or more preferably an oGCD heal if possible where needed. But no. I'm elitist for suggesting basic advice and I am yelled at for half the dungeon being bullied out of even talking in party chat, but no, I am the toxic one. Thank you for this video.
I only complain about someone who is acting like a jerk or just acting like they're better then people. If we ended up meeting in game, we'd probably get along.
I don't mind the advice from other players, especially with classes I don't really play often. I dislike the attitude some players have when they get mouthy or act like a jerk because the healer isn't dpsing or the tank doesn't wall to wall pull. Like yeah the tank should probably pull more and the healer should try to dps, I agree, but acting rude about it won't get them too.
@@kyle013100 I actively go out of my way to be incredibly nice to new players because one of my favorite things to do in this game is teach new players. It's incredibly satisfying to see people learn at an incredibly fast rate compared to when I first started playing. The quicker you teach a newbie, the more likely they are to become a solid player. Being mean while trying to teach people would only make them push me away. It's just that even if I *gently* imply a tip to make the dungeon/trial/raid, etc run more smoothly, I'm immediately called out for providing any advice ever (even by other Mentors and the like) for being "elitist" when I'm very clearly just giving them advice. At that point you're public enemy #1 and I partially wish the 30 minute lockout wasn't a thing so I didn't have to sit through a dungeon with people who insult me the whole time.
@@kyle013100 As a Dragoon main, I prefer smaller pulls because don't get full AOE rotations until nearly 80. I'm level 63 now and I have three AOE moves. One jump and two normal skills. If the Tank pull a huge group, I cant do much overly fast. Since I don't have a full AOE skill rotation.
I think people are just getting lazy ( When its just a roulette or msq dungeon) nowadays since u said it was just the Qitana dungeon Its sad, but usually they are just trying to level their class and don't care about how much dmg they do or if they do dmg to begin with :-: A lot of people have sadly bad experience with getting cursed, kicked etc. at while they were still adapting to FFXIV and after that they just think everything is trying to make them look bad. Sorry for my bad english im from Germany but i hope u still understand my point :-:
elitist= toxic elite players
casualist= toxic casual players
Everytime I've told someone advice because we were struggling, they either didn't say anything and continued to do the exact same thing or thought I was being toxic and continued to do the exact same thing.
If you repeatedly gets called out for being toxic it might be the way you're expressing your advice. Some will ofc always say you're toxic, but most people seem grateful for advice. Try changing it up, maybe it helps.
@@piicii86 Many tried that. Even the most sweetest worded avice sets people off. And to be frank, i dont want to sugarcoat EVERY fck sentense i write, just because Mr Snowflake is getting angry over "Please use your damage spells a bit more"
I think the issue arises when people expect or tell you to perform at e8s level when inside old or casual content such as roulettes.
Also dps isn't king, Mechanics are king. Don't believe me then the early raid strats that aren't typically "dps ideal" such as ilya strat wouldn't be a thing.
As for parses they are mostly a joke in some cases as the extreme fight modification to score ever higher and in fact typically involve manipulation of the fight typically only achievable with higher gear scores such as melee fireball soak during e6s or knockback cheese or etc. All these things are for higher uptime thereby higher dps thereby shorter fight to skip later mechanics but these are a false narrative that dps is king. The fights were designed to be passable by doing the mechanics as intended and the cheese strats create bloated parse scores which in term promote less stable but more dps heavy strategies. NOT THAT THIS IS A BAD THING.
What it means is parses are driven by competition to do more dmg which drives raid strategies to do more damage which then sets the player paradigm that unless you are doing the most damage possible you are "casual" or "lazy" or "unreceptive to feedback" when you may just prefer more stable less error prone but less uptime strategies.
You aren't wrong about people becoming offended too quickly but you yourself engage in this by labeling players as "casualism" for disregarding your advised because maybe they are comfortable with their level of play in the content they are engaging in at that time. Don't be offended if they don't care it takes a little bit longer or they aren't doing top tier dps.
Glad someone finally made a video about this. This has been a growing issue in more than one game of late.
I've almost always agreed with your points and in the faith of improvement, I will say tone is important. People are not usually logical creatures, we're emotional ones. If you tell someone "Can you aoe please," there's not enough information to take as constructive criticism. A lot of people will assume the worst and will read it as "You're being bad. Do you even know how to play?" I know you only used that as an example off the top of your head, but if you work on making your tone sound less accusatory it goes a long way towards making people more open to understanding.
Just as a one-off example, "If you AoE packs that are 3 or more, you'll not only do more DPS, but make it easier for us to simply run to you to re-take aggro :)". I feel something like that is easier to take less as a criticism of your own competence and more like information that will help you improve as a player.
That can sound extremely condescending as well, because to some people, you'll just be treating them as babies.
There is no winning when someone just doesn't want to listen and improve.
That's a whole lot of words just to say people are whiny children
I've tried actually putting more explanation and kindness into it instead of just putting it bluntly forward.
It's actually resulted in about to same result, I'd argue a little worse. Being nice they usually just ignore me, and the problem continues. Being blunt, they at least call me a dickwaffle retard in front of everyone and we find a replacement.
Nah. It's not worth my account if they decide to get assmad and GM flag me. I don't say shit anymore, I just _leave._
When you said you are a rank 1 tank, I thought you were someone who knows his shit. Then I watched the video (tank guide), and I had a suddent urge of trying to tank. I leveled my WAR and I love it. I've finally found a real main role that I can stick to, and thanks to your advices, I'm not so bad in a short amount of time. Thank you for that.
BTW : seeing the old WAR in your background gamplays makes me wish I could try it. x)
I love going back and watching my old warrior footage, it's really nostalgic :D
WAR is probably the most boring job in the game.
FELL CLEAVE💪💪💪
@@NamesLynx that's a super cute comment
I think a common issue is people not caring about others in this game, being a rather common mentality carried over from real life as well. Everyone is focused on what they consider their own fun and don't give a damn about the other 3/7/23 people in that party/alliance. Any suggestion to improve will be taken as a direct insult. I've seen my fair share of these people in just about a year. And for most elitists that want to tell you what you apparently do wrong, half of them rarely ever do well themselves. Sadly, its the loud ones that ever break what others would just use to improve, namely some elitists rubbing parses into others faces/shaming them, hence why Square is refusing on damage meters.
But in reality, most people just want to help. Recently, as I just started picking up AST for Ultimate, I have been in logging groups in savage to hammer in some healing routine. Having met an amazing co-healer (with quite the temper), I reached out to them to analyze my performance, and got greater pointers from them in terms of healing (and by extension proper tanking as well) than anything The Balance gave me up prior.
Reach out to people. Don't be afraid to ask people with high scores on how they do stuff or just stalk their logs. Becoming better at the game makes things easier for everyone, thus removing any reason to be mad about things
With great power comes great responsibility.
The sheer AMMOUNTS of times ive been told to shut my elitist mouth, or been ridiculed for having Mentor I dont bother counting anymore. More people need to see this Video to finally understand that giving legitimate and valid advice is NOT "telling you how to do your job", it's "telling you how to do your job BETTER".
If you wanna be that one guy that stubornly does stuff the way S/HE wants and no other way, fine, but dont drag down 3-7-23 other players in the Process.
Awesome Video, keep it up.
I think you hit the nail on the head when talking about this topic. A lot of hate towards people giving genuine advice is rooted in insecurities, low self-worth, thinking you're talentless etc. This all is a reflection of how those ppl feel irl. And considering FFXIV is a weeb friendly MMO of all things, it attracts people with various issues irl that they can forget about in-game. So when that one BLM player who thinks he's hot shit starts getting defensive about how he's died 3 times in a row to the same mechanic, it's more often than not their insecurities kicking in.
This is all purely based on years of playing MMO's and what I've come to realize when interacting with so many ppl. A lot of them just use games to escape responsibility.
Haha! That's an interesting take if I do say so myself
Can't agree with this more. If you are looking to improve yourself no advice gets under your skin unless the person giving it is being specifically nasty. Good minded players accept when they mess up and more importantly understand why others give the advice when they've made mistakes because they are already thinking the same thing about their own performance.
I've made my fair share of mistakes, and my response is always to just be honest whether that be "thanks, still learning" or "I know, I just really messed that up" or god forbid if I've done exceptionally terrible to the point of embarrassment they will get a "I'm very sorry & I'll make sure to research this before attempting it again". None of that makes me feel bad about myself because I'm confident that fair minded players are more than happy to encounter others who can properly accept their failures yet seek to better themselves. Of course there are proper toxic elitists, but as I said, I'm confident in my own ability to better myself so their nastiness will never effect me regardless of whether I learned from the advice or not. ;D
There we go. This is the kind of content you should be doing. Great clarification on the topic. I find it funny because a lot of players think there is more elitism than “casualism”. I honestly believe FFXIV suffers more from players shutting down ppl who want to help. I think it’s their perspective to assume you are being an elitist jerk talking down AT them.
As someone who's been on both sides of the equation, I also want to bring up the very real issue of Unintentional Elitism. This might sound stupid and Oxymoronic but it's a very real thing. Back in my Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer days, I was in the top 1% on my platform. However, I felt woefully inadequeate when matchmaking paired me with the top 0.1%. My score at the end of a mission reflected how much I sucked, right? So why couldn't the 99% keep up with me if I was nothing special? Why was it that a total Tank Class like the Juggernaut could die 17 times on Wave 1 on Silver Difficulty missions when they were basically immortal if you knew what button to push? "I suck ass and even I can see this, what's their excuse!?" I didn't know it, but my own lack of self esteem was making me an elitist when that's usually the exact opposite of my personality. I felt like crap once I realized it. I understood all the backlash I got for my attempts to help. I was in the top 1% for a reason and they couldn't keep up with me yet. Emphasis on yet. I think a lot of people I played with reached my level.
The reason I mention it is that something to keep in mind is that skill level can lead very special kind of elitism where people don't even realize how hurtful their words come across. With something like Glamours, for example, fashion is subjective. I personally like gear that actually looks protective so I die inside when our tank is wearing a skimpy little thing, but that's their choice and I'm not calling them out on it. The thing is, skill level isn't subjective. It's very easy for even a casual player to see when someone is doing something horribly wrong. And, especially when we still think we have room to improve, seeing others somehow being worse than us can bring out some vitriol. Let me explain:
I'm sure ALL of us reading this have, at one point, had to say "Tank Stance Please" as a friendly reminder. I actually forgot for about 5 seconds myself the other day, but I had an AoE OGCD ready to go so I recovered from it before the party took much damage. I'm sure at least a few people, however, have been like "omg stop getting us all murdered, you're not a blue DPS, turn your tank stance on!" which can feel justified in the moment, but when you really think about it is too much. I think when you do enough on-level content it's easy to forget that syncing down resets your buffs and therefore you need to re-stance, and that's actually something you'll see more commonly among experienced tanks who aren't used to syncing down than on-level ones that are still learning the content! Yet, it's such a basic elementary thing, Step 1 of any dungeon, that not doing it can come across as almost malicious, like "how the heck is it possible to overlook such a basic aspect of the role!?" But it happens to the best of us on rare occasions.
You know what I mean?
That said, everyone will progress at their own pace. Those who aren't good enough will get stonewalled by the content and get discouraged and quit. Those who stick around are learning and improving on their own and might not feel confident enough to have unsolicited advice dumped on them. I know that my first time ever poking savage, we had most of the players from our group and we just needed two to fill the ranks. Our PF listing said that we were blind and wanted to prog it blind, and were looking for likeminded players. Some guy who thought he was being helpful came in with a giant macro that wouldn't even fit on my screen with the expanded chat log to explain the whole fight and demanding we pick which numbers we are in diagrams, completely against our wishes to figure it out on our own, because he was of the opinion that as soon as the first guide is up that anyone who isn't watching it is doing it wrong, and the first guides had basically JUST come out the day before, and as the guy who watched them, he wanted to commandeer our group and tell us what's what. Problem is, I wasn't ready to adhere strictly to someone else's strategy. I wanted to riddle the fight out a bit with friends first, see what it had to offer, become comfortable with Savage because it was my first earnest foray, and THEN consult a guide to see how to improve upon what we had already figured out. Just like that, someone who thought they were just being helpful managed to sour my first impression of Savage, to the point that I started to feel sick and didn't stick around for the fight itself.
Keep in mind: That guy was just TRYING to be helpful. He wasn't TRYING to intentionally be abrasive about it. But the party had made it clear in the PF what their intent was, and his refusal to accept that caused issues. Communicatiuon is a two way street, after all. This is why, when I see someone playing badly, I ask if they WANT advice, with caveats like "I have that class at 80 and I can tell you're not synced down for this yet so you just unlocked it recently, did you want some pointers?" Or "I could see some hesitation in your movement when it came to positioning during X mechanic. I main that class, did you want any advice on how to handle moments like that?" Meanwhile, the other day my Blood of the Dragon button literally broke on Dragoon and when I asked for people to wait so I could reconfigure my bars in a way I can still play they didn't, and I got cursed out for not having the very visible effect on because I had to just chase after them without access to the skill. That's not even remotely helpful. If I'm bringing Dragoon into Holminster, I've had BotD for almost 20 levels.
So this brings me back to DPS Meters. Honestly? I know a lot of people who use them responsibly, but my own experience with accidental elitism makes me scared to give people the pinpoint ammunition they need to really wreck some damage. It's one thing when you can notice the Paladin trying to ST during an AoE pull because they don't trust their healer and want some MP back for Clemency. It's another when you can go "Wow, this Paladin who I don't know and could have been running a ton of lower level content with friends and wasn't using Atonement during those forgot they had Atonement, time to drag them over the spikes and coals by their scrotum, because how DARE they forget such a massive part of their level 80 rotation in the 76 story dungeon, that's at LEAST 20 lost seconds of my life they're wasting!" It's one thing to not see the Atonement animation for awhile and mention it because it's good to know. It's another to be able to look back at the log, see how rarely they used it, and be able to harrass them over it.
Don't get me wrong, though! I'd argue that WAY too many people are WAY too quick to jump into content they are NOT ready for! "I spent half the normal version of that Raid Dead, but I want to experience Savage!" Please rein yourselves in a bit. Even back in my ME3 example, a big part of my frustration was that people who didn't even have anything in their Gear Slot (basically like playing FF14 without accessories equipped) joining Gold and even Platinum level missions for the better rewards, when they clearly hadn't worked their way up to it. Without question, these players would always eat dirt because even the Alt accounts of Veteran players knew to fill your gear slot before going above Silver! This holds true of any game, and at least FF14 has minimum IL walls to mitigate the worst of it, but when Raids are still current the IL availability is strict enough that you can't trivialize it with IL like you largely can in getting caught up. When you need 480 to do E8S and the max AIL is 500, that's nothing like Praetorium's Min IL of 43 vs the 130 people rock in it, you know what I mean? The difference has to be made up for via player skill, so yes, struggling with the Normal version is basically proof that you should hold off on Savage, you know?
Anyways, just my two cents on Elitism, because I'd argue that most people being elitist aren't trying to be jerks about it. Case in point, I know Lynx made these videos to be helpful, yet their Dark Knight video used a phrase along the lines of "or you can turn your brain on and consult a tanking guide before you attempt it for the first time" as if reading your skills and realizing for yourself what your buttons do is the braindead option. I'm sure they didn't MEAN that to sound so aggressively condescending, and they meant more about community expectations and just general courtesies like the "full stop rule" but it sure sounds like that to someone who's less experienced like they're being talked down to, and I say that as a current tank main with multiple tanks at 80.
Bro, thank you so much for making this video I been saying this for the longest!
Your view is very reasonable regarding the harder content, being able to step back and take easier content more casually is a needed thing. You cannot expect everyone to care about performing well in simple content. They may be leveling a class just to have it leveled, they may be trying something new, they could be doing something they service as fun. Expecting a focus on fast paced clears is unfair to those players let alone to any of the players living with mental or physical difficulties. I love nothing more than helping a new player and showing them the good side of our community, but I also understand that normal content can be taken with a normal mentality.
I literally quit being a mentor because of people not giving a fuck about advice. Wanting people to perform at the expected level for the content isn't elitist, it's called having respect for other people's time.
I suppose I come to this discussion from a different viewpoint. I am disabled with anxiety. I don't believe this should preclude me from enjoying the game. I don't play classes that I can't handle, I don't do Savage, Ultimate, or even Extreme content. I do duty finder in instances that I'm familiar with. Rushing will often give me panic as I get overstimulated. That being said, I understand that your time is valuable. The issue I have is not necessarily with folks who try to help you do better, but to those who berate you for being slow, or having poor reaction time, or not knowing the instance. My issue is "ableism", not "elitism". I come off sometimes as "casualist", but I don't insult or berate someone for trying to help me. If I ask for pulls to go more slowly, I often get ignored. I know it's my issue, not theirs, but it gets frustrating. Many of the behavours you listed as "not elitist", are nevertheless "ableist", and you assume everyone should be able to keep up with you. I don't often point my disability out, because its both embarassing and frankly, none of your business. But if someone asks you to go more slowly, or uses a limited number of actions, be aware that that may be all they are capable of at this time. Thank you.
First of all, I agree that a lot of people in FFXIV criticize to help and that in general, the community is friendly. But to a new player, getting told what to do all the time still has negative impact on their experience. New players tend to group with random people. So they probably get criticized by a lot of different people. Some people play this game not to "improve" but to have fun, and they do improve as they spend more time having fun in this game. Part of the fun, at least to me, is to explore the unknown, to make those mistakes, realize those mistakes myself, and to improve via researching as well as trial and error. Getting criticized at every turn certainly spoils the fun for noobs like me. Even if every person who criticizes me has the best intention, it's still kind of discouraging to get told indirectly how much I suck at this game, truth or not. So to those people who always want to "help" , who are so good at this game that they can spot every mistake others make, who do not wish to waste their time playing with people who don't meet their standards, please play with people who do meet your standards. That's what statics are for. If you really need to play with random people, be open minded about the fact that there are people who are bad at the game but still want to enjoy it. If they need a mentor, they will ask.
Awesome video, Lynx. I love how you contrasted "elitism" with "casualism" and explained how it's both equally bad and that we need to find a balance from each side of the spectrum.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Being a casual and fairly new player and also a migrator from WoW I was pretty shocked at the communities attitudes towards advice giving and taking. I was an EXTREMELY bad dps player when I started but was always open to advice. People seem to be super hesitant at first when correcting your play but once you show them that you take no offense and want to improve you can get some really good advice. Coming from WoW the fact people are invested and want to take time to improve is a major boon of this community and a good thing! Going forward it has made me want to help others as well and I will gladly spend an extra 5 minutes on Titan or an extra 10 minutes in low level dungeons to explain rotations and mechanics because being such a new player I know how much just little tips like showing someone how to strafe or explaining tank cooldown rollover or healer priority order and how to recover from a tank going down can completely change the game and open people up to getting advice in the future!
I main in dps ninja and heal raids as scholar while I wouldn't say I'm anywhere near the "top" of ninja or scholar players because of my inability to invest time to be one, I would say I am a "good" player above mediocre because I took advice to heart and invested the time I could to become someone that was above mediocre (memorising mudras, learning how to keep up trick as much as possible, how and when to use eos, synergy with dot healers) and have even gotten compliments and comms in duty finder for playing competently and allowing the tank and healer to comfortably pull more and dps more respectively.
Ultimately this long rant is just. I don't understand the mentality of not wanting to improve or not wanting advice no matter what level or experience you are. I am learning and improving everyday and in turn helping others to learn and improve and making my time and others with the game more smooth and more fun. It's a group focused game and your job above all should be contributing to group progress and learning.
I recently started playing ff14 after playing wow from vanilla through wrath, and then classic. Was a healer most of that time, and also did a little tankadin in wrath. So of course, when I realized paladins are actual tanks in ff14 and can actually do damage (old school wow players know the pain lol) I was in.
Anyway, I always make it clear if I'm new to a dungeon, and always ask for input. I play this game for fun, but sucking isn't fun, so I want to get better.
I get why ff14 doesn't have a dps/healing log, but coming from wow, I didn't see it as a toxic thing. I saw it as a way to check myself. Am I keeping up in dmg? Am I overhealing too much? Not healing enough? What can I do to rectify this? I liked being able to see where I stood
The only time, I swear the only time, when I did the mistake to focus on a single enemy when I had to spam aoe to hold aggro on a group, I got harassed by a dps that was clearly out there to purposely be annoying, pulling enemies while I was writing to explain a newbie the mechanics of the next boss and blaming me for not playing as they wanted. We obviously wiped and this person kept attacking me. Sometimes it feels so good to block and report, even if this person with a bunch of Mog Station cosmetics clearly don't mind being banned for some days and waste their money.
Assholes are going to be assholes, unfortunately.
In terms of how I react to the "Rank 1 tank", my reaction depends mostly on the context and most importantly how it is said. The first video of yours I watched was the Advanced Tanking Guide, in which I pulled it up BECAUSE you were rank 1. I was looking for tips and advice on learning tanking because I had felt at the time that I knew enough on the basics of holding aggro and tanking such as positioning, using cooldowns and other things that I wanted to know what were some more advanced concepts and mentalities that went into higher level, more skilled tanking. And in that context, it's important that you establish yourself as it would be expected for you to bring your experiences into the game and provide why you're qualified to suggest these things.
If you did this in every video (espeically the ones on each individual tank), I'd consider it more of an issue, as those videos are on a topic where your experience can be important, but not a necessary factor to talk about something that can be objectively discussed (like the tank classes in general).
In regards to the video, I have admittedly a different view on what Elitism is, being a player that is more casual than I'd like to be, but not confident in my abilities to effectively pull off savage runs, and this came from other MMO games I played for years on end. To me, your definition of elitism is more just a "jerk" player to me. But the most problematic elitist players are not just players who think they're better: These are players who will take things like the Balance BiS as gospel, nitpick your optimizations and expect you to perform perfectly at all times. These players will use their gear, rank, or knowledge of the game (or tools like FFLogs) to brutally mock players and make themselves feel better and in the end to your point, superior. It's these players that given the Elite, hardcore players a bad name, and in truth, I do not believe being an elite top tier who wants to optimize and be effective is bad.
To "casualism" I wish I could say I haven't seen that but I witnessed this with a tank in AV a week or so ago, where he wiped the party due to not spacing his buffs and at no point in the dungeon using Arm's Length. I noticed and attempted to inform him that he could use it to mitigate, and he snapped back with those exact words, and that he was in fact doing it (he wasn't, as a BRD I have to watch DoTs constantly so I can clearly see when more than just my DoTs are on an enemy). I decided not to press the matter further in that case.
I don't consider advice or wanting to help is bad, though there is somewhat of a finer line with how it gets worded. If someone gets called out for wiping the party, it becomes a bit more difficult to expect that person to accept nitpicks or how to play their class or what's the "right way" to play the game. The danger for top tier players is phrases or words that would make them seem far more accusatory than what they mean. Telling someone something is "sub-optimal" or what the "correct" way to play their class are kill words effectively that shut down the conversation on both sides, as it implies not only the person trying to help that they may be looking down on someone who just wiped the team, while at the same time calling out the player in a group of 6 other players and letting everyone else know "Hey, this guy is doing badly". These conversations may be something that can only really ever be addressed in an FC or in a static/learning parties.
Great video, enjoyed the content. Always like watching the Ultimate fight too.
"Now I know for statics dps checks are a bit of a joke"
*Cue us casual statics laughing at each other*
Personally, I've encountered a situation where I was kicked from a static because the static found a "better tank" to me that's absolutely elitism, I was still pretty new to Savage content and with that static I'd cleared e1s and e2s and although it took a few hours we did it, however because these guys got through it quicker with the other tank they replaced me, because all they care about is proging Savage content, if all you care about is proging and you don't care about helping your fellow team mates improve then that, to me, is toxic elitism (p.s. sorry for the over long schpeel here 😅 )
I agree, that's pretty rude. Ideally people should help first before thinking about replacements.
@@NamesLynx I can agree with that, me and my FC were thinking of making our own static and if we did I know we'd definitely want to help each other improve first, especially since we're all mostly friends irl 😊
Elitism in games has nothing to do with being good at a game.
Elitism is about putting others down, because you feel superior to them, and excluding them from things because they don't meet your standards.
Expecting people you don't know to adhere to a standard set by yourself, is elitist. Helping them learn how to play better (politely), aquire better gear or learning a strategy, is not.
You want to help people learn and give them tips and help? Awesome. Nothing elitist about that, as long as you do so in a polite manner.
Being elitist is mostly about attitude, and less about actions.
On playing a game to relax... I think if you make those performance improvements a habit you can then ALSO relax and perform up to par!
the common factor between elitism and casualism is definitely having a closed mindset, going in somewhere with an open mind is definitely where you want to be in an mmo
Very well thought and logical points made. I'm a new player but this still rings true for me, especially at what to expect once I reach end-game myself. Good video man! Subbed!
When I watch your videos and hear the tone of your voice it does not sound like you are bragging about being a rank 1 tank, mostly. It sounds like you are trying to let people know you have the credentials to understand how to preform optimally. And you are just wanting to help others. It doesn't seem like you want others to play the game you do but just improve.
Do keep in mind some players do have a certain comfort level they play at. For me when I started in arr I couldn't imagine dpsing as a whitemage. Now. I focus on getting out as much dps as possible, within my ability level. And keeping the party alive.
When I started tanking I barely understood it. I couldn't keep agro, was yelled at a lot, and got upset a few times. Now. I run into mobs, like hit me! Give me your best shot. But still make sure I don't over pull for healers and if they need me to pull less, I don't get mad. I pull less.
Just keep in mind that sometimes it is also how comfortable a person is with the game. And once they build up that and build up their knowledge. They improve greatly.
I think purposefully pushing someone out of their comfort zone every once in a while can help them to get even more comfortable, but throwing people into situations they aren't ready for can be toxic.
@@NamesLynx That's true too. Taking smaller steps to improve little by little, or accepting that people learn at different paces and being nice about it can go a long way to helping them get more comfortable.
Incredibly well thought out and well made video. This addresses a lot of the major issues with the FFXIV community and clearly demonstrates the difference between toxic casuals and elitists. Well done.
i like the way you think man nice video
I appreciate that!
Something I’ve learned from a long time of playing mmos is that people who don’t want to improve won’t improve. It’s not worth giving a random player in your dungeon group advice if they don’t care about taking the game seriously or improving at it. Similarly, if you’re in a guild with players that don’t do their rotations optimally, etc, it’s not worth it to try to help them. They simply don’t care; you can’t win with these players. The only thing you can do is be in a guild/static/FC where you surround yourself with other like-minded players. So with that said; I agree that it’s good to help struggling players get better, but only if they actually want the help. If not, your words are just falling on deaf ears.
Broooo THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO
I'm very new to the game, but I'm 22 and a huge video game nerd so I kinda learned the game fast, I just started doing savage content and I'm looking to beat Shiva. Guides from top players like yourself make me more excited to try out new stuff, and I love when people give me advice in videos or in-game to improve.
But you touched on a very good subject, some players in this game are indeed "too casual". I love the raids and extreme fights, so I'm always giving my best and listening to every advice I can, but some players get angry whenever someone corrects them or call them out on a mistake.
There will always be those kind of people, but I think you calling yourself rank 1 is(at least not for me) , a good way to let people know that you have great knowledge and credibility about the game, keep up the great videos dude!
I feel the issue is less WHAT is said and more HOW it's said. There were two times playing when I received basically the same advice on two different jobs, basically I thought I had to keep up a certain buff or mechanic that really isn't worth it when aoe-ing mobs. The first person was very nice and explained it to me well, while the other person was kind of curt. I still took both advices, but the second time it made me feel bad (still, I don't think they were TRYING to make me feel bad on purpose, so I won't assume that was their intention, but what they said came off as a bit passive-agressive).
As for playing sub-optimally while doing low level content, I feel like a lot of issues may be lack of communication. When you find a group on duty finder, you can't know the other people's levels of expertise. I feel like establishing that right at the beggining is a good strategy to avoid issues (when I'm playing a class I'm not too familiar yet, I say it in chat; when I'm playing tank, I always ask the healer if they're ok with big pulls, etc).
And for endgame content...well, I've never done it, but its ENDGAME content. It's implied in the name that it's going to be difficult. You should always assume that people are bringing their A game and you should too. If you're there to learn the encounter, I think you should make a party finder group rather than queue on duty roulette.
And about the parsers, I feel like people are just afraid FFXIV will turn into WoW 2: electric boogaloo, especially with so many WoW players migrating to FFXIV. But, in the end, the community being "toxic" or not doesn't depend only on the people that use parsers. If you don't want the community to become "toxic", then do your best to not be "toxic" yourself. If everyone that is afraid of the community becoming "toxic" makes an effort to be nice to people, then it won't become "toxic". :)
Firstly, this video was very well organized and well thought out.
Secondly, I disagree with the message behind the video (my interpretation of it). Calling out the elitists and or casulaists doesn't achieve anything. Elitism is born out of a sense of superiority, while casualism is possibly an instinctive defense, and none of the two cases above are based on rationality. No matter what happens, and where you go, there will be those who fall into the extremes, and I can promise you that the majority of people are reasonable and rational most of the time.
I would instead propose the solution of surrounding yourself with people who are of the same mindset with you. In our case, people who are willing to take constructive criticism and discuss things with an open mindset. In cases where that is not possible, saying and doing nothing is probably your best bet.
If you don't like what is happening in a party finder party, then leave, and blacklist the person who is behaving irrationally.
At the end of the day, we play video games to have fun. What is the point if we are not having fun and arguing with someone irrationally. The one who looses out the most are the people who are arguing, because what they both loose is TIME. and TIME is more valuable than gold.
Just wanted to comment that I started following you back when you made that advanced tanking guide. I had been leveling my last two tanks and I think that video did a great job of explaining things that I didn't know or wanted to improve on. I think that there's a lot to be gained from learning from more experienced/better players - I know for me it's made me not only want to get better at my main jobs in-game, but to tank more and get better at that too. So keep up the good work! Your videos and streams have been really entertaining and informative.
Listen, as a player I like to optimize my damage a great deal and spend stupid amounts of time researching, looking at logs, setting up my UI, and practicing rotations in order to become a better player, etc
However there is a big difference between various types of advice. If I'm fucking up a mechanic or I'm doing something dumb that's going to wipe us, like standing somewhere that will pull adds, then by all means say something and correct me. But if you just start rambling at me about the specifics of my rotation or gear or whatever, I'm either going to ignore your or tell you to piss off. That's the type of advise you give when asked, not the type of advise that people want unsolicited.
Furthermore, if I'm tanking I'm going to go at *my* pace. I will slow down if I'm going too fast for the healer for obvious reasons, but I'm NOT going to go faster than what I'm comfortable with just to appease other party members.. If you don't like that, find another group or tank it yourself. When I'm a tank, I set the pace and path. When other people tank, I'm happy to let them set the pace and path. That's one of the benefits of tanking.
I believe if you want to chill and play FF without thinking on improvement thats super valid and there are the normal roulettes and duties for that. Not only that, harder content becomes progressively available to "casuals" through unsynced fights and thats one of the best things about FFXIV. So its not like you are being kept out of rewards cuz you play your way. Its just going to take a bit longer, and that should be ok if you are playing just to chill.
The "savage" as the name says, is for someone who wants challenge, and that means improving.
Kinda. But its gets to the point where we are right now. Many, MANY people seemingly dont even know their class. "Shut up, its just a game and i want to chill" may be valid, but dont force 3 or more other player to abide to your lazy chilling. I cant say it enough, its cant be that hard to play the jobs on a basic level? Doing like 8k with the crafted gear should not be hard. That are DPS level you can reach with 70 allready, so it should be childs play to do it at 80.
I personally hate it when people answer on advice with "u don't pay my sub", no i don't but why u activly try to make the run as worst as possible by press 1-2 buttons only?
My intention is never to insult other players or bring them down, i love'd to help others but most people react really toxic towards friendly help.
This is one reason i never done mentor roulette again or trying to help, i got bully'd for try to help others and got insulted. So my Experience is that people love to be really bad, have horrible runs and insult everyone who is trying to help them.
What most "relaxed" player's dont understand or forget is, that u dont play allone in dungeon. I'm not in a dungeon to spend 2 hours in it, i just want it done to get the exp for leveling up or tomes for weekly cap.
Aslong players react with "u don't pay my sub" aslong im unwillingly to play or "carry them" threw the dungeon with the barest minimum they want to do. Because on the other hand they don't pay my sub to get them a afk dungeon run too. This is a Multi player game and people should at least try to do average, otherwise those people are more of a burden sadly....
I do love those comments you highlighted at the 30 second mark. Your tank video was geared towards a more advanced playstyle, thus why wouldn't your skill level be relevant? It essentially says, "Hey, I have good advice to offer and here are my qualifications to prove why it might be worth listening to." In what way would that ever be considered arrogant? It really baffles me just how much the FFXIV community has such a hostile reaction to just about everything that isn't praise or kind words. Of course, part of the problem is the game itself encourages that mentality.
Nicely done video. I like how you concentrated on the mindset of some people when it comes to giving advice. The fact is that to a stranger, you will seem like someone imposing on how they play. We cannot force the mindset of going beyond the bare minimum to everyone. However, maybe changing the tone of how one person may say their pointers can help a lot--but even that is a minor point.
By far, in my experience in FFXIV, people are open to feedback in JP servers. I play in Elemental-Tonberry, and the people I play with are really cooperative and a bit competitive at the same time. People push each other to become better.
Part of why you see people react negatively when you give the whole "you can dps more" advice is that you can't actually see the improvement very well yourself *unless* you have a parser. The only way I have to tell who is doing more DPS is to look at the party list and check aggro because ACT refuses to work for me, so a lot of the time I just did not know if I performed better than the last except for "At least I died less."
A lot of people will not be able to tell the difference in DPS and thus disregard it because "I can't see it" even if it's genuine advice.
There's also the potential problem of filtering through actual advice and that smooth-brain cussing out the healer for DPSing instead of healing despite the group getting a clear with no deaths. If you happen to meet a lot of toxic people, legitimately good advice can get lost because of a preexisting bad experience with people telling you how to play.
As someone whose been around FFXIV since the beginning, the attitudes towards parses and logs in general has been around since Binding Coil, however it was must less serious in ARR.
It wasn't until people hit Alexander in HW and the mass amount of FC and Linkshell groups that disbanded cause they couldn't progress(Usually Pepsiman) that attitudes changed to be much more strict.
But you could also say that it was destined to go that direction and Alexander just made it happen faster.
For me personally I was a tank main for over a decade until Alexander, the major change from doing your best as a tank, to everyone expecting you max dps over anything else was a quick meta change I couldn't adapt to, even me doing 90%+ dps wasn't enough for many.
Happily things have improved in the modern day, people dont just look at the damage % anymore and look at the bigger picture.
However overall the system as it is is here to stay.
Thank you for pointing out tocicity exists at both ends of the spectrum. I've met just as many DPS who don't want to do positionals and scholars that autofollow the tank as I have people who shame others for not doing savage or not having orange parses. It's as you say, we should all strive to improve and do our best. Yes, people have different skill levels and different amounts of time to dedicate to the game (most people understand this), but that's no excuse for ignoring basics such as stack markers and giving people the time they need to learn because these simple things"ruin your fun."
I definitely agree with the points presented, and they have helped me examine some of my own mindset relating to advice and coaching. However there is also a middle ground here that, while not inherently relevant to your point, is an important one to address. And that is the “casualite”.
As a League of Legends player, I dealt with a lot of toxicity. People telling me to go die, racial slurs, ? ping spam were all a part of that. But there was also the advice goblins or “casualites”: People who would constantly spam chat with telling the team what to do, while actively giving out incorrect information. “We should do this other map objective” at a time where we could have just won the game. “You should be helping me” at a time where their own poor decisionmaking cost them a death. The problem with “everyone is just trying to help” as a mentality is that a lot of the time the person offering advice is just incorrect, and that can spell disaster for the rest of the group.
Now, as you climb rankings this problem becomes less and less common, but it’s still a very present issue in the version of the game most players experience. What you’ve described as casualism is a mindset borne (at least partially) from casualites talking down upon lower or evenly ranked players with things that are simply incorrect.
Yesterday a healer said to me "don't use blackest night so often" after we cleared a dungeon and then left. I pm'ed them asking what they meant, since I'm always eager to improve, but didn't get a response.
I still don't understand what's wrong with using it every trash pull and tank buster. If it gets destroyed, isn't it basically "free" mitigation?
Also, I agree with the video, but, as a new player, gotta say that I get tons of passive agressive vibes from players, both the person that doesn't want to improve, but also from those who're giving their "advices".
Not sure why they would tell you not to abuse TBN, it's core to DRK's gameplan. Not to mention, it's also a free Dark Arts when the shield breaks, so not only are you taking less damage, you get a free Edge/Flood to refresh your damage buff AND do more damage to boot. It's my favorite thing about playing the class, especially in EX content where the busters will pretty much always break the barrier.
Maybe you were interfering with their hps parse? Lol who knows.
Appreciate the content. Thanks your tank guide I approach new dungeons with a lil more confidence. Mainly in that I let everyone know it's my first tme tanking that dungeon. Used to hate aurum Vale, but it's one of my favorite ARR dungeons since tanking it. Understanding the potential of the party has really made tanking go smoothly. Thanks for your tips!
I once had a Scholar in an end lvl 70 dungeon that was ONLY using Adlo for tank! NOTHING else, so DPS dying from AOEs and so on! (One DPS before left I was the substitute and then I saw why he left, but he was lvl ~70 beginner so I tried to give him some advices) The moment I said "use succor before pulls, it should relief a bit of healing stress and you could damage too. ;) Main heal here!" (Because I joined as RDM) He answered "You are condescending!" What the?! What rude thing did I say?! In that moment I didnt know what to answer! His most gear was lvl 66 or 68 LVL equip! So that wasnt the only time I tried to be nice and help someone and getting told I am the toxic one just by wanting to help him. So what you say is really something I appreciate, those people should start to realize that their reaction is toxic and dont help anyone, it was more condescending ignoring my advices and letting us die the whole time! The good thing is, because someone left before I didnt got a punishment for leaving that sht party again!
Something to keep in mind, adding a wink ;) can be perceived as passive aggressive to a lot of people. Maybe that's why they thought you were condescending (even if you're not)?
Casualists: you don’t pay my sub!
Lynx: y tf you booing me I’m right!
One of the biggest issues I’ve seen with Casual Players being toxic is their refusal to change anything about their play style. The “you don’t pay my sub” bullshit being so prevalent is such an entitled way of thinking and it makes things a pain to communicate if you’re not sure if the person is gonna snap at you or respond like an adult.
People giving advice is not the problem. People getting annoyed that others arent able to implement the advice are. When I was new to this game and started tanking I had this healer who told me to use cd’s more often. (I had no idea what a cd was at the time. The abbreviation that is ) when I asked what that was they told me I shouldn’t be a tank. He could have just told me to use rampart or shadow wall during add pulls (in my mind at the time bosses should have done more dmg than adds, thats why I saved them for the boss).
My point is that as long as its constructive its good, but a lot of the time its not.
Edit: not shadow wall. This was level 30 as drk
It's honestly painful in EU servers.
Sometimes you just want to explain a mechanic, or what the party/player is doing wrong, only to see them ignore everything you said and do the same mistakes over again.
I think FFXIV has this huge problem where people assume that if you point out an issue with the party, or even try to mention improvements, you are suddenly branded a "WoW refugee" or you're toxic, I don't know why there's people so afraid of WoW that treat it like it's the plague.
FR BAD FR BAD FR BAD FR BAD FR BAD FR BAD FR BAD FR BAD FR BAD FR BAD FR BAD FR BAD FR BAD FR BAD FR BAD FR BAD FR BAD FR BAD
I agree with every point you made! I like to mentor newbies and try to help them learn but in my experience it often falls on deaf ears. I'll explain a mechanic or explain how/when to heal and I'll get no response and I won't see them take the advice and continue struggling in the dungeon.
One big reason why the elitism/casual toxicity issue isn't easily fixable is that a lot of players who give advice tend to frame it as an order or even say it in a mean way because they forget to consider the newbie's perspective. "use aoe please" may not have elitist intentions, but without giving an explanation for why using AoE skills is better for certain situations, it can easily be perceived as being told what to do. It's not exactly helpful or informative if all one says is "stop using medica" or "refresh dots" to people who are new to WHM and think they're efficiently healing by using Medica instead of Cure or a DPS who doesn't even know what DoT means, if that makes sense.
Finally someone said it on youtube, I'm tired of people saying "I play how I want" after giving advice, but then forget they play with 3/7 other people. I think it goes both ways, if you want to play how you want that's totally fine, but then don't expect others to put up with you if they don't like how you play. I usually like helping someone to get better because at least for me that's why I play games, to improve and I have fun in doing so, but I think there is a problem with the game if silently kicking someone, who is SEVERELY under performing, is easier than having to deal with him in the chance he goes full defensive mode after offering basic advice.
Now you were asking about my reaction to you saying you are a rank 1 Tank? Well obviously it means you know your shit regarding the game and achieved something most players (including me) didn't, and I respect you for that.
BUT I don't really like the title of the video that made you popular and also made me watch you ("FFXIV: Advanced Tanking Guide From a Rank 1 Tank") because imo it sounded a bit clickbaity. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with you saying it in the video to emphasize on your knowledge or the thumbnail showing it, but my first reaction to the title was something like:
1. I hope he is actually Rank 1 and not just doing it for the clicks and
2. if he actually is Rank 1 I hope he has some good advice I can learn from and doesn't just brag with it
Thankfully that wasn't true, but that was my first thought when I saw your video and it took some days of it showing in my recommendations before I actually decided to watch it. Would a different title had been better? Idk, probably not, it did get many views.
Just my thoughts, feel free to disagree with my opinion.
This only makes sense in a single context. That is if the person has decided this information is relevant to them. The first step anyone giving advice should take, in fact the ONLY single step that defines what you do as a non casual player to aid another player is ask/define : Does this person believe what is being said is relevant to them. If you determine this person does NOT think it is (for whatever the reason is they think this) your help is instantly NOT help. It doesn't matter how much sense it makes to say it, or how relevant the information is to the player that "needs" to have the correct information. You are only being helpful if the person wants the help OR thinks / believes they need it. If they do not - your job is to understand that and move on. An OFFER of assistance must proceed assistance. If a person doesn't have enough money to make a purchase, you offer, if they refuse you do NOT give them the money, even if you KNOW they won't be able to make the purchase without your help. In this context i'd think everything you've said is spot on.
If you disregard a persons reason for refusing help, then you are establishing a toxic (or have the potential to) relationship with said individual. The emphasis is less on the content of the help, how correct it is etc. I believe it's just a part of natural interactions, we don't have to be talking about a game - and i think it's important to divorce this idea from games to better understand what is happening. In ANY aspect of life, if you try to give a person help that does NOT want it, the help is irrelevant and the focus of ire becomes the struggle of two humans engaged in a pushing match of pride/ideals. Again, it seems you are only correct if it is established BEFORE hand that the intention is to critique behavior and advise for better play. NEVER help someone that is fine, not having your help - that way you are not toxic.
Example: state before you enter the dungeon that you intend to point out when people are doing a sub optimal thing. Ask before you've even fought the first mob, whether or not it's cool to point out peoples mistakes for correction. If they do not agree, do NOT advise that person. If they do - advise that person. Establish the guidelines of your behavior, so that people know what to expect from you before you even start.
Someone finally says it out loud, wish everyone would adopt this mentality
i wanna contribute my thoughts as someone who is in the middle of the two extremes. im definitely not hardcore, and have never gotten into high level raiding. but i've done a few extreme trials, and i do research and practice to make sure im optimising play as i progress content. cause of that, i've been on both sides.
when im matched with newer players, i try to give them tips on how to play their job optimally. 95% of the time people are happy to receive help, but of course there are occasional people who hate any criticism (like the dancer who used dances almost exclusively outside of combat). if someone pushes back, it basically means they will refuse any help and its better to move on.
on the other hand, i've gotten plenty of tips from more experienced players. im particularly new to tanking, so i get things wrong, or dont know things about the dungeon. sometimes tips sound a little passive agressive, but i try to remember that its hard to carry tone over text, and its easy to assume the worst. people just wanna get through content best they can. again, there are really rude people (i was once kicked out of a heavensward dungeon after the first pull cause i was a brd with a SLIGHTLY low item level weapon), but most of the time its fine
even if you dont care about efficiency, or just wanna play solo, i get it. but it is inherently a team based game, by buying it and playing it you have essentially agreed that you have to work as a team, and people should swallow their pride a little bit and take tips. be as bad as you want if you're solo in the overworld lol
I had been kicked out of a dungeon cause the tank extremely overpulled and got blamed cause I couldn't heal through the chaos.
I’m new to this game been using your videos to help me get better
We had a guy pull an entire room of enemies as a DPS and had the audacity to stand next to the tank afk the whole fight 😭
I think you're fine. Thank you for delivering information
It really depends on how the advice is worded too. The best way to show someone you mean no harm is to find something to compliment them on in terms of their play. “You we’re doing a really good job in this section, but here’s how you could improve here”. I get that during a difficult fight you can’t exactly send long messages, but curt messages online like “can you aoe please” can come across as curt and unkind
I respect your video and advice but as a healer since beta and a healer in other MMO's I have started to really hate healing on a healer cause im still expected to dps a significant amount.
Back in vanilla ARR raiding a healers main job was to just heal and if you can dps you can. It has turned into a "Do the absolute bare minimum of healing and dps as much as your GCD allows" and it honestly disgusts me.
If I wanted to play a dps I would have been a dps, and its because of that that I have officially quit healing as of the end of this tier. I took the advice, watched the vids, practiced the opener (which it seriously bothers me cause so much is wasted) and I hated every min of it.
Elitism and criticism often go hand in hand, because you know and play better so you want to give out criticism for reasons.
I believe it is all about the tone, context, behavior, when and how you present it.
I met:
A person who refused to heal people who made mistakes in mechanics and vocal about it.
A person who used Savage and Ultimate clears to insult casuals who refuse to try those content.
A person who used E8S clear to refuse explanations and reasons in an argument because they are obviously better.
These 3 cases were from my personal experience in FFXIV. Its pretty rare considering the amount of nice people ive met via DF over a year.
If you are being considerate, kind, respectful and patient, your elitism wouldn't even be noticed by the receivers, you will just be a nice person giving out advice.
If the receiver responds with hostility, in my opinion, apologize and explain your intention because they may not be in a good mood, and dont want to receive any advice or criticism.
Well, being a decent person is usually the answer for all of this.
Leveling roulette tanking story(short):
Haukke manor as a paladin. Told group ‘ima pretend I tanked this one once already.’ The two dps supported me and one replied ‘it’s ok we gotchu.’
We started the run and MCH went forward and pulled a mob or a group after I engaged one group - easily manageable but I got a feeling the healer may not be comfortable. Heals we’re coming a tad late and not enough for these big multi on-the-go pulls.
Then, when MCH said something among the lines of ‘pull all the mobs you want!’ I went and tagged a group at a time in this one run pull that I died and healer was like ‘Why.’
The two dps were still supportive, saying, ‘we got this!’
And then healer left. 😐
As a tank, I learned which mobs can be pulled altogether in parts of the map to make the run just a bit faster. Although, I felt the run became more dedicated for my experience that we left the healer out. I felt bad. Usually, I’d ask the healer if they’re ok with big pulls but the MCH was encouraging multi string pulls that I went at his pace instead.
Feelsbadguys 🤦🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
An advice, don't play end content with strangers, play it with your FC or friends, otherwhise your going to hear all this fflog shit, Great video btw!
Good video and I'm so glad that people are pointing out the toxic casual mindset because I've seriously been in groups where they've had this mindset and I was framed as "hateful toxic elitist parser" because i tried to offer advice on how to use MP wisely as a healer (back during 4.x) and it's constantly framed as wrong that I've said this like, maybe once or twice by this group, as some example of "why it's super harmful to play with parsers" or some crap like that. Not once did they consider the fact that because of me they were clearing content they couldn't even dream to do and even during 4.2 they still struggled with Lakshmi Ex but would expect me to go like every other day. It's draining and people should be aware of the fact that like, sure you can play for fun like you said, and still improve on how they play :s I really hope that more people see this video and learn from it rather than fall back on their own excuses to not improve.
Elitism is never good, but great leadership is. Be a leader and believer in your fans and your game. Keep up the good "casualism" idealism and you will be adored!
To this I still don't know how to tell tanks that they don't have their stance on without some of them taking offense 😰
As a new player I’d love it if people gave helpful feedback so I could be a better tank. I’m always worried about getting flamed for some screwup or for something I don’t know.
There two types of people who view knowledge. The first uses knowledge as a step to empower themselves above others. Secondly you have those who use knowledge to help those around them and to encourage improvement. Sry just something I thought about when thinking about the bad and good of elitism. (I’m not trying to show elitism in a bad light)
If someone wants to improve their play, they will ask someone for help. The reason people get defensive when 'offered help' is because of tone in which it is offered. It usually comes across as 'hey quit wasting my time and fix yourself'. We don't want this game to ever turn into World of Warcraft with it's addons and toxic community. Any dps above clearing the fight is a waste. Encourage those that seek to improve and leave those that don't alone. I understand your video. I used to be a high end raider and mythic+ key pusher, but I came here after getting burned out on the demands put on me as a player in a game I was using to relax in. Thanks for the video.
I actually left a raid party because of a toxic person who joined us because someone else couldn't come that time. Said toxic person (who had cleared the raid before) went through the ACT logs after the raid and convinced the raid leader that I sucked because about once every 2 minutes I had about 8 seconds without any damage output.
I was playing Dancer and despite my best attempts of defending myself everyone just listened to that guy...
Well every 2 Minutes I have "Technical Step" ready...
first there are 2.5 seconds cooldown from whatever skill I used before "Technical Step" then 1 second before I can use the first step, and finally 4 seconds in total for the steps before using the finish, unless I am mistaken that makes 7.5 seconds of cooldown.
Unfortunately people only looked at the delays between DPs and not for the cause which means that they told me that I should get better to no longer have those gaps instead of caring about the reason. so after that outsider poisoned the group we had I decided to tell them to fuck off because I would leave the raid party.
Honestly in other games I'm high key paranoid on asking advice because of how often they were condescending or I was excluded from raids because I didn't reach 1 mil combat points (I have 760k and that's already higher than average players), but asking for advice in ff14 has kinda eased up my tension and anxiety for raids.
The line is very unclear between taking things as toxic and taking things as helpful. I think a big part of that is due to no voice chat. I think communication is key. Great video!
Well said!
I think the TLDR of elitism is: if you keep it to the circle of players you play with and everyone is on the same page, it's not an issue. If you enforce your standards / play-style onto others and judge them for their own play-style when you're in an unorganised environment, then it's not ok.
I'm so used to watching MMO/MOBA guides where people are all "I'm x rank", "I'm a challenger x", etc.
I can't understand how someone would think that's bragging. It's just saying "here's what my qualifications are"