I was 85,000 words into a novel that was only 1/5 of the story. As this was so vast a project, I was scooped by a (friend) who jumped in and wrote a novel on the same topic. I concluded I had not spent enough time with historical fiction so I took a break to research the topic. This delayed me a long time but finally, after 15 years I was encouraged to finish writing by a friend who loved what I had created. That was enough to get me back into the project and now it is nearly finished. I decided to turn the story into a trilogy, and am so energized by the first chapters that the remainder is evolving with its own energy. I hope you can return to complete what you have begun, not give up, but plan to return when it is fully the right time for you. Good luck to you and those who get stalled on a book that has them frustrated. You can win with this thing.
Glad you expanded your craft skills to realize books of that super long length always need to be trimmed/parlayed into a series! Guess it speaks to the crucial bits of perspective a writer can gain from setting down the book for years! 💖
I resonate SO much with this discussion! even as an outliner myself, you’re right that outlining won’t necessarily solve your issues. i love hearing you speak about writing sff as a discovery writer bc i personally love planning my plot out in advance but i’ve found that some of the best images, motifs and scene-level moments have come organically and it’s just impossible to plan for those things. i’m trying to find the balance that works for me. passion is something i find that i have to rediscover constantly, almost at the outset of every writing session, especially with a first draft. currently i’m working so slowly through my fourth book, also a fantasy novel, and i can relate to everything you touched upon. love your honest writing chats as always ✨
I would LOVE someday to find that balance for myself but it's been a real challenge. I can't seem to find a way to both outline (for projects that might need it) and still have those in-the-moment epiphanies I get while discovery writing. Hopefully someday I can hack that but I can't quite figure it out yet
Your many videos on literary fiction helped me ALSO come to terms with the fact that literary fiction is what I truly love. It has changed my whole perspective on writing and invigorated me to pursue it seriously again. THANK YOU!
I resonated with what you said about second-guessing yourself because of others' opinions- it's so difficult being surrounded by so many opinions from an audience as well as in real life- it almost feels like a communal gaslighting, even if that wasn't the intent haha. It's really disappointing when a project doesn't turn out. I'm so glad your MFA project has reignited your spark!
Soo relate to this! Managing my own process alongside so many outside opinions has been very challenging. I've been trying to share less and less in order to protect my process (and peace lmao) but that also enables people to make more assumptions with no basis in reality which can be frustrating. 'Communal gaslighting' is honestly how it feels sometimes but I'm trying to get better at withstanding that.
I’m experiencing this exact thing with my novel now, and I am also someone for whom outlining *ruins* my writing. This video made me feel seen. Thanks for posting it
i’ve always admired your candid reflections. the first time you mentioned not every story needs to be a novel, not every idea needs to be fully formed or fleshed out, it took a weight off my shoulders. the ideas i have would take me years and years to write. i can’t promise i’ll do them all justice. i can’t promise i’ll get past writing the second act or the first draft. and that’s okay. the story can just exist in my head or whatever iteration it becomes. it’s encouraging to hear, esp in this period of hyper productivity/output, that you’re prioritizing your education but also what you’ll actually have fun writing 💜
I think that people frame the outlining vs discovery writing/pantsing discussion as a pros and cons debate, when it’s really a process of self-discovery.
Thank you for being so candid about your creative journey. It makes me feel seen and a lot more comfortable with my own struggles and confusion, because it's so easy today to fall into a hustle-writing mode, but I choose to stay away from it. I feel the constant push to create and publish, but I'm committed to not giving in to these pressures. I'm still discovering myself and I'm going to take my time getting to know myself as a writer. All this confidence and sense of security has come from your videos, for which I'm honestly so grateful. Good luck with your MFA thesis; sending good vibes :)
My favorite lesson I've ever learned in terms of creative work is 'Nothing is sacred'. Don't cling to processes or the 'good bits' of something is it's not working as a whole. I learned it a painting class after the professor spent a half hour on a demo painting before he threw a loaded paint brush straight at it. Basically, it's a poetic way to say don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy. Also, failed works are not a waste of time. You learn more from failure than success.
Whether you decide to continue it or not in 2 years, I admire your ability to prioritise and cut losses if you need to yet keep moving on with your life and projects. I also really appreciate this video because it's giving me the confidence to trust myself to discovery write my fantasy novel after a long time feeling useless because I couldn't outline. Thank you for sharing
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I actually see myself in this video a lot. Being a discovery writer for me is basically "start writing as soon as I have a vague idea and run with it". If I hold out, I just think about it too much, and it dissolves into nothingness or endless outlining in my head. Also, regarding the genre talk ... yeah, same. I like genre that are grounded in reality much more, mostly because I realized I don't like world building myself. It goes into the same box as planning/outlining. I just ruin my own spontaneity with this xD But I also learned throughout all my unfinished WIPS that some ideas are not meant to be written down. Or they sound way better in theory ... and that's totally OK as well! And also, that themes and characters tend to stick way more than settings, and will probably come back around in another story :)
I relate to a lot of what you said. I came to writing with the idea that I was going to write fantasy, but now find myself enjoying writing everything but fantasy. It has been a bit of an adjustment. I’m currently in a 2-year writing program too, and I make a point to shut out the noise of the “ideas” that float around in an academic environment. It’s been very helpful. All the best.
Shutting out the academic atmosphere is so important if you know you are onto a fresh take. Those people can ruin the unique writer and what can be too original for the indoctrinated institutional system to appreciate.
Thanks for this video and talking about this. I've experienced both the "drafting in public" bits where it was like I was promising too much or too differently than what I could actually deliver or what actually turned out happening and the "massive disappointment on finishing the rough draft" bit. The latter I'm so relieved to hear I'm not alone. Everyone talks about the idea of shitty first drafts and it's not going to look like your vision, but no one talks about how it feels when everything is off, forced, etc., and when there's no excitement at all. I'm glad to hear your thought process. It's helping me sort through what happened on my end. Emotional mirroring is so needed....
When i was young, i tried to dance in front of my friends. I got laughed at. So i just concluded i wasn't a dancer. Its not for me. Later in life, i learnt more about dancing, tried it, and i found i actually enjoyed it. Sometimes, failure is not evidence. A bad encounter is not always a large enough sample size to form a conclusion on. I think take some time off the draft, or try outlining another, before you close that door completely.
The new bookshelves are looking great! Sorry this book didn't work out, but having more conviction in yourself is still a net positive. Hope the MFA is treating you well!
I’m honestly so impressed you made this video. I really don’t appreciate much of the Authortube content but the honesty in this was so heartwarming. I totally understand how you feel and it’s something I struggle a lot with… I recently quit my job to focus on my writing (I can get it back whenever I want fortunately) but I’m in a bit of a self-esteem slump. To see someone with such a high profile going through the same thing is helpful. Thanks and keep going.
I got my author voice back when i wrote in the header "i write for me" and just had a project purely for my enjoyment. I realise i am between literary, at times flowery or archaic and zippy modern bare bones writing, and i embraced that and it is like i can breathe again.
I know the feeling with the one I just spent the last several years on. After 1st draft, I still felt like "this is the stupidest thing ever"; the plot and worldbuilding were still forming. Halfway through 2nd draft was when I finally felt I had something worthwhile. 3rd draft actually might have been the hardest - that was the real polish and "kill your darlings" stage.
Wonderful video! I’m a big believer in doing what makes you happy and obviously literary fiction makes you happy, so do that! Which you are! As a hardcore pantser of novels myself, I also agree with what you said! I’m mostly a genre fiction writer and love writing SFFH genre novels and short stories (including YA/kidlit), but I’ve also written some literary fiction short stories and gotten them published because I just wanted to write about certain themes! One of my lit fic short stories that I wrote in March 2020 and has received 45-50 rejections is finally getting published next year! 🎉 I can’t believe you’re working on your thesis already and you just started your program! Excited to hear more about it. 😍
Omg congrats on your story! And haha I admit to being a bit over excited with my thesis--I didn't need to start it so soon but I was way too excited lol
I hope you do revisit the fantasy book. You said you were writing the first third with a speed and vigour that you aren't used to, which suggests something was really clicking at that point. My advice if you want it, after your studying, revisit the first third, ditch the outline and discovery write from there.
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on this! I know you say it wasn't really an "uplifting" video, but I personally found hearing about the trajectory and ultimate conclusion of this project really refreshing and validating. It's so true that sometimes ideas are better just existing in your head, and that not every project needs to "succeed" as a product to be worthwhile, or for the process of creating it to be a meaningful learning/growing experience. Also love that you came out of this situation with a greater appreciation for your own likes and joys re genre! There is so much unnecessary snobbery and gatekeeping from both sides of the genre infighting trenches lol, can't we all just get along...
I would love to talk about it more at some point! I fear that it is a topic that causes a lot of controversy that can be...unpleasant to deal with, in part because no matter how many times I say 'this is just the genre I like to write, I am not saying nor do I think that it is better than any other genre' people still project that opinion on to me any time I talk about literary fiction and get very combative with me. But, it is my preferred genre and a genre really close to my heart so I'd love to find a way to talk about it more!
@ShaelinWrites I totally understand. That is actually why a lot of creators I follow don't talk about it because of those combative reactions. It's sad because no matter how much people disclaimer, there are still negative responses. We should have more discussions about literary fiction so that maybe it sheds that "pretentious" air/reputation people have assigned to it.
I see your point but I view it more like a spectrum; like, how much of it is it going to be different from our world really affects the difficulty. What is way more difficult to write in my own experience is mystery and thrillers, because they need to be very meticulously plotted and thought out regardless of how complex the plot actually is, even in terms of the actual legalities of some of those things depending on setting if that plays a part.
@darkmatter9651 I hear ya. Because my sci-fi novel ALSO contains a crime investigation POV AND it is set in another world. So not only I had to research legal stuff extensively, I also had to apply it within the context of that world
I wouldn't personally say the *most* difficult because I think difficulty is relative to the person, but they are for sure very technical/complex genres and this can make them very challenging for a lot of people--myself included!
@@ShaelinWrites I agree. I just meant that those genres tend to be more difficult because they have added complexities: You have to deal with worldbuilding, magic systems, mythical creatures, etc. ON TOP of all the complexity of the characters and plot
It's so interesting to hear that there is a negative connotation attached to literary fiction in academia! Back in my day (I'm old), I felt like there was more pressure to write 'serious' stories. Anyway, I love that you're writing what's fun for you! I wish I had that realization earlier :)
I think it's a very recent development! When I was in my undergraduate the focus was very much on literary fiction but it seems things have changed in the past five or so years. I think it's great that students have more freedom to write whatever they want, but it is interesting seeing that now there is a bit of negativity around literary fiction rather than just accepting all genres as valid.
Okay first things first, the backdrop is awesome and you're looking more and more beautiful! Maybe its the hair or maybe its in the MFA air? Secondly, I just realised I've only finished the works taht I discovery wrote and was never able to finish the stories I plotted. I think trying to shove yourself in the mold A when you're B is self atrocity. I dont like fantasy and that's fine. More so because I like low stakes stuff and fantasy is not about that most of the times. Scorpio Races is a fantasy plot that I loved because it was low stakes, it was more like literary fiction but with tamed(?) carnivorous horses that people use to race at the beach every year in November. It was cosy. I loved it. And I realised thats what I want in my reading and writing experience - a cosy touch. If a project is no longer giving me that comfort while I'm reading or writing it, I'll just drop it. Because I simply can not jeopardize my relationship with wordsmithery.
I can understand your feeling of guilt when shelving a project. I'm actually picking up a WIP that I wrote 2 years ago and am going to rewrite it. I may shelve it again, but just giving it another shot... just in case.
Thank for sharing this video. I had my baby earlier this year and for some reason my writing has disappeared. Before when my brain was full of ideas, now it is empty. I've felt lost and unable to find my writing again. But watching your videos are such a comfort. I watched them so much when I was learning. I love how organic your writing process seems now and how after so long you are still learning and changing. I hope I can get my writing back one day, but until then I have your videos so thank you!
Maybe literary magical realism might be more up your alley? Fantasy can be a very broad category and maybe the type you tried to write doesn't work well with your style.
@@annaa3772 I have written literary magical realism before and love it! I wouldn’t try to consciously generate a fantasy idea because it’s not my usual genre, but since this idea happened intuitively and it excited me I wanted to pursue it.
I think for many viewers the project was interesting because we were curious how will your fantasy turn out now, after you have acquired significant chops in literary fiction genre. If it didn't turned out the way you wanted - so be it. Even if this wasn't an artistic success, I think you've learned a lot about yourself in the process and this has a value of its own.
I’m writing an action comedy, the first draft is bad and I’ve learned so much. I’m trying to do a lot of action engrained with the main characters journey. So I try to follow Natural conclusions of what would allow both action & comedy to work together simultaneously. It’s really helpful, especially since a lot of the plot is gonna be reworked and I’m working towards an ending.
I started a book and abandoned it in 2000. Picked it up again in 2020. Couldn’t get very far. Now on its third rewrite I finally have the shape of it. I was the age of the protagonist and now I’m the age of the protagonist’s parents. That’s the perspective I needed. I love your videos.
This happened to me with two different projects this year. Each one, I was super excited about the idea, the characters, themes, plot, world. The first one I discovery wrote half and then stopped because I started hating my plot. I figured I would come back to it after months, but by then I just felt too overwhelmed to re-plot it. The other project I outlined, pushed through writing half of it, hated what I was writing, re-outlined and started over, and even though I don't hate it, I still don't feel excited about the actual scenes I'm writing. So for me it's not a plotting or pantsing issue, it's not a genre issue, I just feel exactly what you said about the execution not lining up with the idea I had in my head, and I've never had this issue before with any project and now it's come up twice in one year. So I'm hoping I'll soon learn something about myself and why I've gotten stuck with my fiction writing this year.
This is so interesting because it's the opposite for me in many ways. I'm a natural outliner, and I can't discovery write. Though I do take inspiration in the moment and steer away from outlines, those good ideas come to me as a part of the process and cannot be detached from outlining. Then with genres, I've been reading and writing fantasy all my life, and though the books can be long and intense, I'm comfortable with the expectations of the genre. It's like I khow them in my bones. I can meet them without thinking. The same cannot be said for any genre outside of sci fi & fantasy. The idea of writing a romance, for example, is so daunting to me. I think processes and genres and stories that seem complex are often easier to write for some people because writing something "simpler" or more raw and understated is actually really tough because you have to feel it so deeply and execute it with such nuance. I agree that there's no shame in admitting you can do one but not the other.
Preface: I write primarily fantasy. One time, I wrote a novel and ended up with a similar perspective on a first draft. My solution was to make some small conceptual changes and then rewrite from scratch. Also, outlining when that's not your style is tough. I primarily discovery-write most of the books I've produced over the past 10 years. However, after over 20 years of writing novels, I'd say I only just got to the point where I'm able to effectively sense my way through the writing process and discover intricate plot like what you discussed in the book you completed this summer. Anyway, I don't have serious advice for you because you're already an accomplished writer. I really like your point about how you enjoy writing literary fiction, because even though I'm not the same way, I recognize the feeling. Writing something I don't enjoy is the surest way to make a book I don't like reading. Hang in there.
You should write what you enjoy! Nothing wrong with literary fiction. I agree completely with what you said. No genre should be held above another. I read pretty much everything though, including literary fiction. I'm sorry the story didn't work for you but i'm glad you found what you really enjoy writing. I'm a discovery writer to and I hate that it's been romanticized because while it's how I work and I love it I don't want to come across like I think it's better than outlining. Different people, different brains, different tastes. That's all. :) Good luck!
All of the luck to you for grad school, and the workload that goes with it. Project TEBO never stood out to me from your descriptions. So you're right, there's no love lost. Considering it's the same way for you, I think the conclusion we can make is that the level of enthusiasm directly effects the execution rather than the premise. "Outlining will not save you" is the advice I should be following. Unfortunately, the OCD part of me thrives on outlines ... I will never not outline. And yes it's very much a procrastination tactic and a vicious cycle, because the more I think about execution on the actual page, the angrier I get at myself for no reason. (This has rarely happened with plays; pretty much only with novels. As a playwright I've triumphed time and again.) *Okay quick edit on this:* People's "having fun again" remark in reference to you stepping away from literary fiction was something so baffling I at first chose not to comment on it. But I think in its own way it's A. very backhanded on fantasy by designating it the funny farm, and B. dismissive of the completed works of the great Shaelin Bishop by implying their more focused thematic tone can be equated to a lack of access from emotions, even for the author herself. To which I say to them: calm the hell down, we haven't even read Honey Vinegar yet. If Shaelin says she enjoyed and loved them, TAKE HER WORD FOR IT, OKAY?
I understand where you're coming from. My third book, which I am writing now, was largely a discovery written for the first draft, but it went off at several tangents so I will have to outline and so it will be the opposite of you. The structure is all over the place and some of it isn't well thought out. The second draft is very difficult and there are some difficult decisions to make..So, I get where you're coming from.
I am about to launch into my 10th book. Every first draft is less than ideal. All you can do is put your head down and grind it out. If the concepts is NG, don't bother. Do the next book instead. Writing is hard work and the work doesn't care how you feel about it. "Do or do not, there is no try," Yoda
I have been going through the same thing. I've restarted the beginning of my draft at least 5 times over the last few months. I love the concept, but there's something less exciting about it. I think I'm in a better place with it now and I like it more, but this has been the hardest one to draft.
Genre fiction by its very definition implies restrictions, tropes, expectations. Literary fiction is basically everything that doesn’t fit a genre - so it can be whatever you want it to be. It’s not elitist - it’s just different.
I have hit the wall with my book. I set out to do a thing, but knackered that thing in the very way I was protesting always happens. I'll get back to it. Soon, I hope. I just have to try to remember why I was excited about it in the first place. Reading my outline does that. I'll never understand pantsers. I also don't have to. Pantsers gonna pants. It's cool. Whatever works for them, y'know?
For a long time I wanted to write a big epic action fantasy story but now I realized through this video I can't write fantasy even though I love reading it. I might switch gears and try to dip my toes into a different genre I feel a bit more confident in writing. I might try to write horror comedy. I started writing horror short stories when I was a kid so I might do that but since I can't take anything seriously a part of me wants to write a super campy funny horror novel in the same vain as like Dead Alive or Cabin in the Woods. This video just helped me realize I am writing maybe in the wrong genre and I am thankful I watched this video before I gave up writing.
I also wrote my book and hated it at first, well, there was some plot problems with it and I had just put it aside. Years later I read it over again and i liked it. I think I just needed the space to get a different perspective on it. I think you need to do the same. Its probably not as bad as you think.
Thank you so much for sharing your journey with us. I've always worried about that. What if I finish the book and I don't like it? What then? I honestly believe that happens when we write for someone else instead of ourselves. I think you can make something very beautiful and unique out of this idea if you let go of the genre constraints and write lit fic fantasy for yourself.
Happy to see you back. Moving the microphone closer will improve audio quality. Brandon Sanderson says he outlines the plot and pantses the characters. Yup, you've always come across as liking literary fiction.
*pops open folded chair and plops down~ NO! I see your "I hate my project" set down in defense position and I cast it into the graveyard. EDIT: I change my mind. I'm happy you are free from a project that's become dead weight 💜
Stick it in a drawer for a few months. Come back to it after that time has passed. Maybe your opinion on your work will be unchanged & there's no recourse other than to take it out to the woodshed & quietly put it out of your misery, or maybe you'll remember why you wrote it in the first place & know what to do to make it better.
I think that not liking your first draft is probably normal. Maybe if you rethought the story in the future like you said after your masters it might spark some interest in you again. Some things just aren't going to work, and they need to be changed, and that's fine. But hey, good luck with your future projects and I hope you at least enjoy your next one!
It might be normal for some people but unfortunately it's not normal for me. I talked about this in the video but maybe it got buried- the issue for me with this draft isn't that it has problems and stuff that didn't work (that always happens with a first draft and is a given) but that nothing about it excites me, which is a very different problem.
I want to write literary fiction that’s fantasy, science fiction, horror and I am so freaking confused. My first love is fantasy, I used to look up my nose at literary fiction through watching your videos since I was 16 or 18 idk lol you helped me discover the beauty of it. But I cannot think how to blend how blend those elements. I think I want to outline and discovery write cause for me trying to do one or another hurts my brain well melts it. But then I can’t figure out how to do both either. And short stories are the fucking bane of my existence I can’t seem to write I think the novel is superior (I know it’s false ) plus I love short fiction, and 32 first drafts of poems I feel like an imposter cause I never will be a real poet (idk what that means) I want to write speculative poetry only . All my writing is confessional writing even within the fiction, poetry, short stories you make me want to believe in myself thanks for being vulnerable ❤ Congrats on the mfa your the reason why I realized I want to be a creative writing and literature studies teacher 🎉 Favorite story by I will never tell you, Elise holding a deer mouse, and you know where you body is buried ( I was talking to the Liberians about your short stories) How to gut a fish when you are a first made me realized I could write poems, before the 32 poems I only write one poem in high school I studied and read poetry intensely outside and inside of school, but felt like I couldn’t do both cause that was greedy (the mind is so irrational lol) 😢❤ And thank you to all the other commenters Cheers to writing literary fantasy, sci fi, and horror 🤠🥳🥳🥳👏🏿 or whatever you guys want to write 🥹🥹❤️🩹🥶
I have just completed a grimdark fantasy novel just tonight. It is in very rough shape at the moment, amd does not feel dark enough for my taste It does not help that i am a hardcore panster, and didn't work from a solid outline, just a detailed main character profile
Honestly, it sounds like everyone else set you up for failure. Celebrating that you were now "free to have fun" writing fantasy would, for me, place that expectation and ensure that I NOT have fun writing it 😅 Maybe there's a way you can write that fantasy the same way you write literary fiction. Or heck, just write a literary fiction story in a fantasy setting. There's definitely an audience for that!
Would you ever consider writing something that is simply fun to write? It could be as absurd as you want it, but sometimes those are the stories that get picked up. Like Twilight or Ice Planet Barbarians for example. Lol. Those books aren’t at all “literary” but they have amassed wide audiences and are objectively entertaining for a huge population of readers. And the authors that wrote them were having fun with the concepts. If you take away the pressure of trying to create an intricate Tolkien-like world, with complex systems, and just create a fast paced, intriguing story that has commercial appeal, maybe it could help get you out of this funk. And using Save The Cat as a loose blueprint could also help keep you on track. I know this suggestion was unwarranted but I just wanted to throw it out there lol
Eh no there are have to be people who want to create more complex literary fiction. It's kind of a weird suggestion as if people who write will stop existing?
@@bethanycamille5379 personally for my literary fiction is simple fun to write! I think the concepts of the books you describe don’t really appeal to me so I wouldn’t have fun writing that type of work. When I write literary fiction I feel like I’m creatively at my best and having so much fun writing because it’s what excites me, even if the genre might not be associated with “fun” by most people it is for me
However, there is no need to learn outlining! Surgeons must learn surgery, engineers must learn engineering, but outlining is only one of many paths towards writing a book. It's not a necessary skill. If it's one a writer wants to learn, they can learn it, but it's far from the only way to write.
I've always found fantasy 10 times harder to write, and the more I try to meet my internalized expectation of what fantasy is meant to be, the worse it gets. The emotional rawness of lit fic is instantly rewarding even when everything is a hot mess, but with fantasy it takes sooo much boring engineering to get to that place. Fantasy is absolutely more constrained, from a voice and line level, to way stricter expectations of what counts as a plot 😂 the idea that literary fiction is all pulling teeth and fantasy is effortless just seems like reverse genre snobbery. And often spec fic fans maintain the distinction just as hard, when in reality some of the best spec fic comes from authors approaching fantasy in a literary way (Susanna Clarke, Angela Carter, Kazuo Ishiguro... LOTR, even). I've had to evolve a completely different process for fantasy in which I can only describe as like a three-legged race with my outline, with a ton of breaks, fermenting, and rewriting. Your current feelings sound exactly like how I've felt about projects I did come to love... about three years later. Of course coming up with a whole world from scratch makes everything else harder! It makes complete sense to leave that aside at this time in your life. I hope this doesn't completely kill your interest in spec fic forever, though. ❤
@@ShaelinWrites I can appreciate that. However, if I may be so bold, I suspect that would be because you're editing during your first draft. For me, 1st drafts are like taking dictation. I see the environments through the characters' eyes. I listen in on their conversations. It tends to flow so easily that it doesn't even feel like I'm writing. But when I do the 2nd pass I see a lot of elements that I couldn't see before. Scenes rearrange. Chapters are deleted. Connections are made. Whole storylines come into being. Here, I'm actually writing. Again, that's just me.
I do edit a lot while drafting for sure! But for me the act of first draft writing, as in the initial writing of the words, is incredibly important and revealing of my story and characters. Editing is very important for my work, of course, and I learn a lot about the story through that process, but the writing of the initial words is one of the most revealing and important steps for me. A lot of very important epiphanies are hidden in the first sketch of the words and reveal as they're first written. Personally it would feel like a disservice to not think of the first draft as actual writing when it's such an important part of my process, both for the book's development but also for me emotionally and even kind of spiritually. That's just my process though, I know lots of people are very different in that!
@@ShaelinWrites True. It's unfortunate that you feel it's a disservice to the first draft to not call it writing, though. It's actually a positive thing. Writing is work. The first draft shouldn't feel like work... *if the story, itself, drives you to write it.* That's key. It's like with any art: you get a vision, hold it in your mind, then sketch. That sketch is the first draft. You're not concerned with right or wrong; you're just laying the groundwork for your vision in a kind of "flow." Then you bring it to life. Anyway, I think our different views and practices would've made us great critique partners; I believe we'd have learned a lot from one another. Maybe we'll try again someday... when I'm not just some old, old know-it-all rando in your comments😅 👴😅 Great share. Keep up the great content!
@yapdog I think for me, I consider that 'flow' to be writing--if anything, that is the core of writing to me. I live the story through the first draft in a way that's really important to me, and I can tell you do too, but to me that is very, very much what writing *is* (to me personally). I hope that makes sense! I understand why other people would view it differently, but that's just based on the relationship I have with my writing. I can see how some writers, like your self, might view writing as work, and so therefore, don't class that very intuitive first draft as writing, because it's pure creativity--not work. However to me, I don't associate the word writing as being work, but rather that pure creativity/intuitive flow state.
Most of the problem with "literary fiction" is the name. It is redundant. All fiction is literature. To supply the adjective of "literary" is a bit pretentious, as if this fiction is inherently better than the rest. There needs to be a new name.
I see this argument a lot but tbh I disagree! That would be like saying the existence of horror implies no other work can be horrifying, or that fantasy implies no other work can be fantastical, or that romance implies no other work can be romantic. But--we all know that's not the case. Literary fiction isn't saying 'only this is literature' but highlighting the main quality people seek it out for, which is its focus on form/style (aka the literary elements).
@@ShaelinWrites I agree with you about the horror/fantasy/romance, but "literary" still has this connotation, at least for me, that while other books can be literary this is MORE literary. For example: I've heard the term "literary fantasy" which also seems a bit snobbish. You do have a point, of course, that "literary" can also signify to the reader there's a focus on the form or style... "formal fiction" is a possibility, I guess, but considering what "informal" and "formal" mean to most people, that also sounds stuffy... Yeah, I'm at a loss.
So, since you are normally a pantser, why when you realized this was not going to work, did you not just revert to what works? Why put yourself through all of this? Secondarily why not just write what you are going to write, and figure out which genre or not it fits into after the fact? This seems like a lot of trauma for no reason. Books frequently get placed in a different genre by bookstores anyway. There are no extra cookies at the end of the day for torturing yourself.
I had already outlined the book so there wasn't really any going back since I had already planned everything so the route to discover it as I wrote was gone. I referred to the outline as minimally as I could but the damage was done. Also, it was fairly obvious the book was fantasy from the concept so that wasn't really something to figure out after because it was obvious from the initial idea that this was a fantasy book (set in a secondary world, containing magic--like it was obviously fantasy). I wouldn't call it trauma--it was just a creative process that didn't work out as I hoped. I adjusted the best as I could while writing--I know how to think critically and adjust as needed with my process!--but unfortunately I couldn't make it work.
@@ShaelinWrites From this side of the screen, I would perform an exorcism on it, then perhaps douse it in holy water and/or salt before locking it in a crypt. lol
I watched half of this and I still don't understand what you want to talk about so I start back in the beginning while writing this comment. First of all, evaluating the process of writing isn't the same job as evaluating the quality of writing. If you want to talk about the former, then your title was a clickbait. Second, what the hell do you mean "quality"? If you want to talk about the text has the intended effects, then why don't you talk about "effectiveness" or "successful" or the opposite of those terms? What kind of ideas you try to invoke if you use "quality"? Last but not least, I have no idea what this book was about. I can't imagine a specific image out of all you descriptions in this video. The abstractness has lost me even if I do give this video a second watch.
@@john80944 as stated at the beginning, I don’t share what my work is about any more because I have been plagiarized. The point of the video wasn’t to air every specific issue with my book, but to reflect on the emotions writing it brought me. This video was about how the process went on to affect the quality in a negative way. The title was not clickbait. In fact I discussed at length the exact topic stated in the title.
Too often folks say laziness is why you don’t do something, really, it’s more often because you care too much to do it poorly/hastily.
I was 85,000 words into a novel that was only 1/5 of the story. As this was so vast a project, I was scooped by a (friend) who jumped in and wrote a novel on the same topic. I concluded I had not spent enough time with historical fiction so I took a break to research the topic. This delayed me a long time but finally, after 15 years I was encouraged to finish writing by a friend who loved what I had created. That was enough to get me back into the project and now it is nearly finished. I decided to turn the story into a trilogy, and am so energized by the first chapters that the remainder is evolving with its own energy. I hope you can return to complete what you have begun, not give up, but plan to return when it is fully the right time for you. Good luck to you and those who get stalled on a book that has them frustrated. You can win with this thing.
Glad you expanded your craft skills to realize books of that super long length always need to be trimmed/parlayed into a series! Guess it speaks to the crucial bits of perspective a writer can gain from setting down the book for years! 💖
I resonate SO much with this discussion! even as an outliner myself, you’re right that outlining won’t necessarily solve your issues. i love hearing you speak about writing sff as a discovery writer bc i personally love planning my plot out in advance but i’ve found that some of the best images, motifs and scene-level moments have come organically and it’s just impossible to plan for those things. i’m trying to find the balance that works for me.
passion is something i find that i have to rediscover constantly, almost at the outset of every writing session, especially with a first draft. currently i’m working so slowly through my fourth book, also a fantasy novel, and i can relate to everything you touched upon. love your honest writing chats as always ✨
I would LOVE someday to find that balance for myself but it's been a real challenge. I can't seem to find a way to both outline (for projects that might need it) and still have those in-the-moment epiphanies I get while discovery writing. Hopefully someday I can hack that but I can't quite figure it out yet
I liked this video. Not everything has to be positive. Sometimes it's nice to know that I'm not the only one struggling with this writing thing.
Your many videos on literary fiction helped me ALSO come to terms with the fact that literary fiction is what I truly love. It has changed my whole perspective on writing and invigorated me to pursue it seriously again. THANK YOU!
Aww that makes me so happy!
I resonated with what you said about second-guessing yourself because of others' opinions- it's so difficult being surrounded by so many opinions from an audience as well as in real life- it almost feels like a communal gaslighting, even if that wasn't the intent haha.
It's really disappointing when a project doesn't turn out. I'm so glad your MFA project has reignited your spark!
Soo relate to this! Managing my own process alongside so many outside opinions has been very challenging. I've been trying to share less and less in order to protect my process (and peace lmao) but that also enables people to make more assumptions with no basis in reality which can be frustrating. 'Communal gaslighting' is honestly how it feels sometimes but I'm trying to get better at withstanding that.
I’m experiencing this exact thing with my novel now, and I am also someone for whom outlining *ruins* my writing. This video made me feel seen. Thanks for posting it
Joining the "outlining ruins my writing" gang 😅
i’ve always admired your candid reflections. the first time you mentioned not every story needs to be a novel, not every idea needs to be fully formed or fleshed out, it took a weight off my shoulders. the ideas i have would take me years and years to write. i can’t promise i’ll do them all justice. i can’t promise i’ll get past writing the second act or the first draft. and that’s okay. the story can just exist in my head or whatever iteration it becomes. it’s encouraging to hear, esp in this period of hyper productivity/output, that you’re prioritizing your education but also what you’ll actually have fun writing 💜
I think that people frame the outlining vs discovery writing/pantsing discussion as a pros and cons debate, when it’s really a process of self-discovery.
Absolutely!!
totally unrelated to the topic of the video but this whole look is an absolute banger. the shirt, the earrings, the hair! im speechless
Thank you for being so candid about your creative journey. It makes me feel seen and a lot more comfortable with my own struggles and confusion, because it's so easy today to fall into a hustle-writing mode, but I choose to stay away from it. I feel the constant push to create and publish, but I'm committed to not giving in to these pressures. I'm still discovering myself and I'm going to take my time getting to know myself as a writer. All this confidence and sense of security has come from your videos, for which I'm honestly so grateful. Good luck with your MFA thesis; sending good vibes :)
I would absolutely love an MFA video, I'm so happy you're working on it. I'm applying to a program rn and its ~stressing me out~
My favorite lesson I've ever learned in terms of creative work is 'Nothing is sacred'. Don't cling to processes or the 'good bits' of something is it's not working as a whole.
I learned it a painting class after the professor spent a half hour on a demo painting before he threw a loaded paint brush straight at it. Basically, it's a poetic way to say don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy.
Also, failed works are not a waste of time. You learn more from failure than success.
Whether you decide to continue it or not in 2 years, I admire your ability to prioritise and cut losses if you need to yet keep moving on with your life and projects. I also really appreciate this video because it's giving me the confidence to trust myself to discovery write my fantasy novel after a long time feeling useless because I couldn't outline. Thank you for sharing
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I actually see myself in this video a lot. Being a discovery writer for me is basically "start writing as soon as I have a vague idea and run with it". If I hold out, I just think about it too much, and it dissolves into nothingness or endless outlining in my head. Also, regarding the genre talk ... yeah, same. I like genre that are grounded in reality much more, mostly because I realized I don't like world building myself. It goes into the same box as planning/outlining. I just ruin my own spontaneity with this xD
But I also learned throughout all my unfinished WIPS that some ideas are not meant to be written down. Or they sound way better in theory ... and that's totally OK as well! And also, that themes and characters tend to stick way more than settings, and will probably come back around in another story :)
I relate to a lot of what you said.
I came to writing with the idea that I was going to write fantasy, but now find myself enjoying writing everything but fantasy. It has been a bit of an adjustment.
I’m currently in a 2-year writing program too, and I make a point to shut out the noise of the “ideas” that float around in an academic environment. It’s been very helpful.
All the best.
Shutting out the academic atmosphere is so important if you know you are onto a fresh take. Those people can ruin the unique writer and what can be too original for the indoctrinated institutional system to appreciate.
Thanks for this video and talking about this. I've experienced both the "drafting in public" bits where it was like I was promising too much or too differently than what I could actually deliver or what actually turned out happening and the "massive disappointment on finishing the rough draft" bit. The latter I'm so relieved to hear I'm not alone. Everyone talks about the idea of shitty first drafts and it's not going to look like your vision, but no one talks about how it feels when everything is off, forced, etc., and when there's no excitement at all. I'm glad to hear your thought process. It's helping me sort through what happened on my end. Emotional mirroring is so needed....
When i was young, i tried to dance in front of my friends. I got laughed at. So i just concluded i wasn't a dancer. Its not for me. Later in life, i learnt more about dancing, tried it, and i found i actually enjoyed it.
Sometimes, failure is not evidence. A bad encounter is not always a large enough sample size to form a conclusion on.
I think take some time off the draft, or try outlining another, before you close that door completely.
I'm going to come back to the book after my masters degree to re-evaluate if I want to edit/rewrite it or put it aside!
I love the honesty of this video and the fact writing should be for joy regardless of expectations
I usually outline and then I start to ignore the outline halfway through the draft 😅
Can't wait to hear about your MFA!
Every project you write teaches you something. Sometimes what it teaches you is "this doesn't work for me."
You sound so clear, resolute and authentic in this assessment. Enjoy doing your MFA.
The new bookshelves are looking great! Sorry this book didn't work out, but having more conviction in yourself is still a net positive. Hope the MFA is treating you well!
I’m honestly so impressed you made this video. I really don’t appreciate much of the Authortube content but the honesty in this was so heartwarming. I totally understand how you feel and it’s something I struggle a lot with… I recently quit my job to focus on my writing (I can get it back whenever I want fortunately) but I’m in a bit of a self-esteem slump. To see someone with such a high profile going through the same thing is helpful. Thanks and keep going.
I got my author voice back when i wrote in the header "i write for me" and just had a project purely for my enjoyment. I realise i am between literary, at times flowery or archaic and zippy modern bare bones writing, and i embraced that and it is like i can breathe again.
Thank you for coming back!! Today just got better🎉🎉
I know the feeling with the one I just spent the last several years on. After 1st draft, I still felt like "this is the stupidest thing ever"; the plot and worldbuilding were still forming. Halfway through 2nd draft was when I finally felt I had something worthwhile. 3rd draft actually might have been the hardest - that was the real polish and "kill your darlings" stage.
Wonderful video! I’m a big believer in doing what makes you happy and obviously literary fiction makes you happy, so do that! Which you are! As a hardcore pantser of novels myself, I also agree with what you said!
I’m mostly a genre fiction writer and love writing SFFH genre novels and short stories (including YA/kidlit), but I’ve also written some literary fiction short stories and gotten them published because I just wanted to write about certain themes! One of my lit fic short stories that I wrote in March 2020 and has received 45-50 rejections is finally getting published next year! 🎉
I can’t believe you’re working on your thesis already and you just started your program! Excited to hear more about it. 😍
Omg congrats on your story! And haha I admit to being a bit over excited with my thesis--I didn't need to start it so soon but I was way too excited lol
I hope you do revisit the fantasy book. You said you were writing the first third with a speed and vigour that you aren't used to, which suggests something was really clicking at that point. My advice if you want it, after your studying, revisit the first third, ditch the outline and discovery write from there.
Cannot wait for the MFA content!
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on this! I know you say it wasn't really an "uplifting" video, but I personally found hearing about the trajectory and ultimate conclusion of this project really refreshing and validating. It's so true that sometimes ideas are better just existing in your head, and that not every project needs to "succeed" as a product to be worthwhile, or for the process of creating it to be a meaningful learning/growing experience. Also love that you came out of this situation with a greater appreciation for your own likes and joys re genre! There is so much unnecessary snobbery and gatekeeping from both sides of the genre infighting trenches lol, can't we all just get along...
I would love to hear more about your thoughts on literary fiction. I love it so much and there is never enough discussions on it
I would love to talk about it more at some point! I fear that it is a topic that causes a lot of controversy that can be...unpleasant to deal with, in part because no matter how many times I say 'this is just the genre I like to write, I am not saying nor do I think that it is better than any other genre' people still project that opinion on to me any time I talk about literary fiction and get very combative with me. But, it is my preferred genre and a genre really close to my heart so I'd love to find a way to talk about it more!
@ShaelinWrites I totally understand. That is actually why a lot of creators I follow don't talk about it because of those combative reactions. It's sad because no matter how much people disclaimer, there are still negative responses. We should have more discussions about literary fiction so that maybe it sheds that "pretentious" air/reputation people have assigned to it.
fantasy/sci-fi are probably the most difficult genres to write well. There's a lot that can go wrong
I see your point but I view it more like a spectrum; like, how much of it is it going to be different from our world really affects the difficulty. What is way more difficult to write in my own experience is mystery and thrillers, because they need to be very meticulously plotted and thought out regardless of how complex the plot actually is, even in terms of the actual legalities of some of those things depending on setting if that plays a part.
@darkmatter9651 I hear ya. Because my sci-fi novel ALSO contains a crime investigation POV AND it is set in another world. So not only I had to research legal stuff extensively, I also had to apply it within the context of that world
I wouldn't personally say the *most* difficult because I think difficulty is relative to the person, but they are for sure very technical/complex genres and this can make them very challenging for a lot of people--myself included!
@@ShaelinWrites I agree. I just meant that those genres tend to be more difficult because they have added complexities: You have to deal with worldbuilding, magic systems, mythical creatures, etc. ON TOP of all the complexity of the characters and plot
It's so interesting to hear that there is a negative connotation attached to literary fiction in academia! Back in my day (I'm old), I felt like there was more pressure to write 'serious' stories. Anyway, I love that you're writing what's fun for you! I wish I had that realization earlier :)
I think it's a very recent development! When I was in my undergraduate the focus was very much on literary fiction but it seems things have changed in the past five or so years. I think it's great that students have more freedom to write whatever they want, but it is interesting seeing that now there is a bit of negativity around literary fiction rather than just accepting all genres as valid.
Okay first things first, the backdrop is awesome and you're looking more and more beautiful! Maybe its the hair or maybe its in the MFA air?
Secondly, I just realised I've only finished the works taht I discovery wrote and was never able to finish the stories I plotted.
I think trying to shove yourself in the mold A when you're B is self atrocity. I dont like fantasy and that's fine. More so because I like low stakes stuff and fantasy is not about that most of the times.
Scorpio Races is a fantasy plot that I loved because it was low stakes, it was more like literary fiction but with tamed(?) carnivorous horses that people use to race at the beach every year in November.
It was cosy. I loved it.
And I realised thats what I want in my reading and writing experience - a cosy touch.
If a project is no longer giving me that comfort while I'm reading or writing it, I'll just drop it. Because I simply can not jeopardize my relationship with wordsmithery.
I can understand your feeling of guilt when shelving a project. I'm actually picking up a WIP that I wrote 2 years ago and am going to rewrite it. I may shelve it again, but just giving it another shot... just in case.
Thank for sharing this video. I had my baby earlier this year and for some reason my writing has disappeared. Before when my brain was full of ideas, now it is empty. I've felt lost and unable to find my writing again. But watching your videos are such a comfort. I watched them so much when I was learning. I love how organic your writing process seems now and how after so long you are still learning and changing. I hope I can get my writing back one day, but until then I have your videos so thank you!
Very interesting points. Now, I must reevaluate everything about my work process.
Maybe literary magical realism might be more up your alley? Fantasy can be a very broad category and maybe the type you tried to write doesn't work well with your style.
@@annaa3772 I have written literary magical realism before and love it! I wouldn’t try to consciously generate a fantasy idea because it’s not my usual genre, but since this idea happened intuitively and it excited me I wanted to pursue it.
I wonder if picking that fantasy draft up in a couple years will look any different
I think for many viewers the project was interesting because we were curious how will your fantasy turn out now, after you have acquired significant chops in literary fiction genre. If it didn't turned out the way you wanted - so be it. Even if this wasn't an artistic success, I think you've learned a lot about yourself in the process and this has a value of its own.
I’m writing an action comedy, the first draft is bad and I’ve learned so much. I’m trying to do a lot of action engrained with the main characters journey. So I try to follow Natural conclusions of what would allow both action & comedy to work together simultaneously. It’s really helpful, especially since a lot of the plot is gonna be reworked and I’m working towards an ending.
Im also trying to bend Reality TV and Set pieces together so it’s a whole weird thing
I started a book and abandoned it in 2000. Picked it up again in 2020. Couldn’t get very far. Now on its third rewrite I finally have the shape of it. I was the age of the protagonist and now I’m the age of the protagonist’s parents. That’s the perspective I needed. I love your videos.
Damn, your fashion game is on point!
This happened to me with two different projects this year. Each one, I was super excited about the idea, the characters, themes, plot, world. The first one I discovery wrote half and then stopped because I started hating my plot. I figured I would come back to it after months, but by then I just felt too overwhelmed to re-plot it. The other project I outlined, pushed through writing half of it, hated what I was writing, re-outlined and started over, and even though I don't hate it, I still don't feel excited about the actual scenes I'm writing. So for me it's not a plotting or pantsing issue, it's not a genre issue, I just feel exactly what you said about the execution not lining up with the idea I had in my head, and I've never had this issue before with any project and now it's come up twice in one year. So I'm hoping I'll soon learn something about myself and why I've gotten stuck with my fiction writing this year.
I'm half way through my draft, saw this show up in my recommendeds, and Lord I hope it's not foreshadowing.
This is so interesting because it's the opposite for me in many ways.
I'm a natural outliner, and I can't discovery write. Though I do take inspiration in the moment and steer away from outlines, those good ideas come to me as a part of the process and cannot be detached from outlining.
Then with genres, I've been reading and writing fantasy all my life, and though the books can be long and intense, I'm comfortable with the expectations of the genre. It's like I khow them in my bones. I can meet them without thinking. The same cannot be said for any genre outside of sci fi & fantasy. The idea of writing a romance, for example, is so daunting to me.
I think processes and genres and stories that seem complex are often easier to write for some people because writing something "simpler" or more raw and understated is actually really tough because you have to feel it so deeply and execute it with such nuance.
I agree that there's no shame in admitting you can do one but not the other.
Preface: I write primarily fantasy. One time, I wrote a novel and ended up with a similar perspective on a first draft. My solution was to make some small conceptual changes and then rewrite from scratch. Also, outlining when that's not your style is tough. I primarily discovery-write most of the books I've produced over the past 10 years. However, after over 20 years of writing novels, I'd say I only just got to the point where I'm able to effectively sense my way through the writing process and discover intricate plot like what you discussed in the book you completed this summer. Anyway, I don't have serious advice for you because you're already an accomplished writer. I really like your point about how you enjoy writing literary fiction, because even though I'm not the same way, I recognize the feeling. Writing something I don't enjoy is the surest way to make a book I don't like reading. Hang in there.
You should write what you enjoy! Nothing wrong with literary fiction. I agree completely with what you said. No genre should be held above another. I read pretty much everything though, including literary fiction. I'm sorry the story didn't work for you but i'm glad you found what you really enjoy writing. I'm a discovery writer to and I hate that it's been romanticized because while it's how I work and I love it I don't want to come across like I think it's better than outlining. Different people, different brains, different tastes. That's all. :) Good luck!
All of the luck to you for grad school, and the workload that goes with it.
Project TEBO never stood out to me from your descriptions. So you're right, there's no love lost. Considering it's the same way for you, I think the conclusion we can make is that the level of enthusiasm directly effects the execution rather than the premise.
"Outlining will not save you" is the advice I should be following. Unfortunately, the OCD part of me thrives on outlines ... I will never not outline. And yes it's very much a procrastination tactic and a vicious cycle, because the more I think about execution on the actual page, the angrier I get at myself for no reason. (This has rarely happened with plays; pretty much only with novels. As a playwright I've triumphed time and again.)
*Okay quick edit on this:* People's "having fun again" remark in reference to you stepping away from literary fiction was something so baffling I at first chose not to comment on it. But I think in its own way it's A. very backhanded on fantasy by designating it the funny farm, and B. dismissive of the completed works of the great Shaelin Bishop by implying their more focused thematic tone can be equated to a lack of access from emotions, even for the author herself. To which I say to them: calm the hell down, we haven't even read Honey Vinegar yet. If Shaelin says she enjoyed and loved them, TAKE HER WORD FOR IT, OKAY?
I understand where you're coming from. My third book, which I am writing now, was largely a discovery written for the first draft, but it went off at several tangents so I will have to outline and so it will be the opposite of you. The structure is all over the place and some of it isn't well thought out. The second draft is very difficult and there are some difficult decisions to make..So, I get where you're coming from.
I am about to launch into my 10th book. Every first draft is less than ideal. All you can do is put your head down and grind it out. If the concepts is NG, don't bother. Do the next book instead. Writing is hard work and the work doesn't care how you feel about it. "Do or do not, there is no try," Yoda
I have been going through the same thing. I've restarted the beginning of my draft at least 5 times over the last few months. I love the concept, but there's something less exciting about it. I think I'm in a better place with it now and I like it more, but this has been the hardest one to draft.
Genre fiction by its very definition implies restrictions, tropes, expectations. Literary fiction is basically everything that doesn’t fit a genre - so it can be whatever you want it to be. It’s not elitist - it’s just different.
I have hit the wall with my book. I set out to do a thing, but knackered that thing in the very way I was protesting always happens. I'll get back to it. Soon, I hope. I just have to try to remember why I was excited about it in the first place. Reading my outline does that. I'll never understand pantsers. I also don't have to. Pantsers gonna pants. It's cool. Whatever works for them, y'know?
For a long time I wanted to write a big epic action fantasy story but now I realized through this video I can't write fantasy even though I love reading it. I might switch gears and try to dip my toes into a different genre I feel a bit more confident in writing. I might try to write horror comedy. I started writing horror short stories when I was a kid so I might do that but since I can't take anything seriously a part of me wants to write a super campy funny horror novel in the same vain as like Dead Alive or Cabin in the Woods. This video just helped me realize I am writing maybe in the wrong genre and I am thankful I watched this video before I gave up writing.
I also wrote my book and hated it at first, well, there was some plot problems with it and I had just put it aside. Years later I read it over again and i liked it. I think I just needed the space to get a different perspective on it. I think you need to do the same. Its probably not as bad as you think.
Love a video where you discuss about elitism in literature in general because I’m messy 😂
Thank you so much for sharing your journey with us. I've always worried about that. What if I finish the book and I don't like it? What then? I honestly believe that happens when we write for someone else instead of ourselves. I think you can make something very beautiful and unique out of this idea if you let go of the genre constraints and write lit fic fantasy for yourself.
Happy to see you back. Moving the microphone closer will improve audio quality. Brandon Sanderson says he outlines the plot and pantses the characters. Yup, you've always come across as liking literary fiction.
I do the opposite, as in heavily outline and plan my core characters, and pants the plot
can't help but feel that the stigma against literary fiction is tied to the online (and offline!) anti-intellectualism movement...
*pops open folded chair and plops down~ NO! I see your "I hate my project" set down in defense position and I cast it into the graveyard.
EDIT: I change my mind. I'm happy you are free from a project that's become dead weight 💜
Stick it in a drawer for a few months. Come back to it after that time has passed. Maybe your opinion on your work will be unchanged & there's no recourse other than to take it out to the woodshed & quietly put it out of your misery, or maybe you'll remember why you wrote it in the first place & know what to do to make it better.
I'm going to come back to it in a couple years after I'm done my masters degree! Unfortunately there's really no time to look at it before then haha
I think that not liking your first draft is probably normal. Maybe if you rethought the story in the future like you said after your masters it might spark some interest in you again. Some things just aren't going to work, and they need to be changed, and that's fine. But hey, good luck with your future projects and I hope you at least enjoy your next one!
It might be normal for some people but unfortunately it's not normal for me. I talked about this in the video but maybe it got buried- the issue for me with this draft isn't that it has problems and stuff that didn't work (that always happens with a first draft and is a given) but that nothing about it excites me, which is a very different problem.
I want to write literary fiction that’s fantasy, science fiction, horror and I am so freaking confused. My first love is fantasy, I used to look up my nose at literary fiction through watching your videos since I was 16 or 18 idk lol you helped me discover the beauty of it. But I cannot think how to blend how blend those elements. I think I want to outline and discovery write cause for me trying to do one or another hurts my brain well melts it. But then I can’t figure out how to do both either. And short stories are the fucking bane of my existence I can’t seem to write I think the novel is superior (I know it’s false ) plus I love short fiction, and 32 first drafts of poems I feel like an imposter cause I never will be a real poet (idk what that means) I want to write speculative poetry only . All my writing is confessional writing even within the fiction, poetry, short stories you make me want to believe in myself thanks for being vulnerable ❤
Congrats on the mfa your the reason why I realized I want to be a creative writing and literature studies teacher 🎉
Favorite story by I will never tell you, Elise holding a deer mouse, and you know where you body is buried ( I was talking to the Liberians about your short stories)
How to gut a fish when you are a first made me realized I could write poems, before the 32 poems I only write one poem in high school I studied and read poetry intensely outside and inside of school, but felt like I couldn’t do both cause that was greedy (the mind is so irrational lol) 😢❤
And thank you to all the other commenters
Cheers to writing literary fantasy, sci fi, and horror 🤠🥳🥳🥳👏🏿 or whatever you guys want to write 🥹🥹❤️🩹🥶
I have just completed a grimdark fantasy novel just tonight. It is in very rough shape at the moment, amd does not feel dark enough for my taste
It does not help that i am a hardcore panster, and didn't work from a solid outline, just a detailed main character profile
Honestly, it sounds like everyone else set you up for failure. Celebrating that you were now "free to have fun" writing fantasy would, for me, place that expectation and ensure that I NOT have fun writing it 😅
Maybe there's a way you can write that fantasy the same way you write literary fiction. Or heck, just write a literary fiction story in a fantasy setting. There's definitely an audience for that!
I don't know if you've answered this already but where are you getting your MFA?
Would you ever consider writing something that is simply fun to write? It could be as absurd as you want it, but sometimes those are the stories that get picked up. Like Twilight or Ice Planet Barbarians for example. Lol. Those books aren’t at all “literary” but they have amassed wide audiences and are objectively entertaining for a huge population of readers. And the authors that wrote them were having fun with the concepts. If you take away the pressure of trying to create an intricate Tolkien-like world, with complex systems, and just create a fast paced, intriguing story that has commercial appeal, maybe it could help get you out of this funk. And using Save The Cat as a loose blueprint could also help keep you on track. I know this suggestion was unwarranted but I just wanted to throw it out there lol
Eh no there are have to be people who want to create more complex literary fiction. It's kind of a weird suggestion as if people who write will stop existing?
@@bethanycamille5379 personally for my literary fiction is simple fun to write! I think the concepts of the books you describe don’t really appeal to me so I wouldn’t have fun writing that type of work. When I write literary fiction I feel like I’m creatively at my best and having so much fun writing because it’s what excites me, even if the genre might not be associated with “fun” by most people it is for me
Ooo question for the q&a do you specialize in anything? Screenwriting, literary novels, poetry etc?
Also this isn’t about the mfa but just ideas of how to keep track of your projects
I also can't outline, I thought something was wrong with me
You can learn anything. Surgeons learn surgery, engineers learn engineering, writers can learn outlining.
However, there is no need to learn outlining! Surgeons must learn surgery, engineers must learn engineering, but outlining is only one of many paths towards writing a book. It's not a necessary skill. If it's one a writer wants to learn, they can learn it, but it's far from the only way to write.
@@elementeight8 That's true, but it makes writing miserable for me
I've always found fantasy 10 times harder to write, and the more I try to meet my internalized expectation of what fantasy is meant to be, the worse it gets. The emotional rawness of lit fic is instantly rewarding even when everything is a hot mess, but with fantasy it takes sooo much boring engineering to get to that place. Fantasy is absolutely more constrained, from a voice and line level, to way stricter expectations of what counts as a plot 😂
the idea that literary fiction is all pulling teeth and fantasy is effortless just seems like reverse genre snobbery. And often spec fic fans maintain the distinction just as hard, when in reality some of the best spec fic comes from authors approaching fantasy in a literary way (Susanna Clarke, Angela Carter, Kazuo Ishiguro... LOTR, even).
I've had to evolve a completely different process for fantasy in which I can only describe as like a three-legged race with my outline, with a ton of breaks, fermenting, and rewriting. Your current feelings sound exactly like how I've felt about projects I did come to love... about three years later. Of course coming up with a whole world from scratch makes everything else harder! It makes complete sense to leave that aside at this time in your life. I hope this doesn't completely kill your interest in spec fic forever, though. ❤
Writing doesn't truly begin until the 2nd draft
Personally my first drafts are very detailed/involved, but I'm sure this is true for a lot of people!
@@ShaelinWrites I can appreciate that. However, if I may be so bold, I suspect that would be because you're editing during your first draft.
For me, 1st drafts are like taking dictation. I see the environments through the characters' eyes. I listen in on their conversations. It tends to flow so easily that it doesn't even feel like I'm writing. But when I do the 2nd pass I see a lot of elements that I couldn't see before. Scenes rearrange. Chapters are deleted. Connections are made. Whole storylines come into being. Here, I'm actually writing. Again, that's just me.
I do edit a lot while drafting for sure! But for me the act of first draft writing, as in the initial writing of the words, is incredibly important and revealing of my story and characters. Editing is very important for my work, of course, and I learn a lot about the story through that process, but the writing of the initial words is one of the most revealing and important steps for me. A lot of very important epiphanies are hidden in the first sketch of the words and reveal as they're first written. Personally it would feel like a disservice to not think of the first draft as actual writing when it's such an important part of my process, both for the book's development but also for me emotionally and even kind of spiritually. That's just my process though, I know lots of people are very different in that!
@@ShaelinWrites True. It's unfortunate that you feel it's a disservice to the first draft to not call it writing, though. It's actually a positive thing. Writing is work. The first draft shouldn't feel like work... *if the story, itself, drives you to write it.* That's key. It's like with any art: you get a vision, hold it in your mind, then sketch. That sketch is the first draft. You're not concerned with right or wrong; you're just laying the groundwork for your vision in a kind of "flow." Then you bring it to life.
Anyway, I think our different views and practices would've made us great critique partners; I believe we'd have learned a lot from one another. Maybe we'll try again someday... when I'm not just some old, old know-it-all rando in your comments😅
👴😅
Great share. Keep up the great content!
@yapdog I think for me, I consider that 'flow' to be writing--if anything, that is the core of writing to me. I live the story through the first draft in a way that's really important to me, and I can tell you do too, but to me that is very, very much what writing *is* (to me personally). I hope that makes sense! I understand why other people would view it differently, but that's just based on the relationship I have with my writing. I can see how some writers, like your self, might view writing as work, and so therefore, don't class that very intuitive first draft as writing, because it's pure creativity--not work. However to me, I don't associate the word writing as being work, but rather that pure creativity/intuitive flow state.
Your shirt is so sick
Most of the problem with "literary fiction" is the name. It is redundant. All fiction is literature. To supply the adjective of "literary" is a bit pretentious, as if this fiction is inherently better than the rest. There needs to be a new name.
I see this argument a lot but tbh I disagree! That would be like saying the existence of horror implies no other work can be horrifying, or that fantasy implies no other work can be fantastical, or that romance implies no other work can be romantic. But--we all know that's not the case. Literary fiction isn't saying 'only this is literature' but highlighting the main quality people seek it out for, which is its focus on form/style (aka the literary elements).
@@ShaelinWrites I agree with you about the horror/fantasy/romance, but "literary" still has this connotation, at least for me, that while other books can be literary this is MORE literary. For example: I've heard the term "literary fantasy" which also seems a bit snobbish. You do have a point, of course, that "literary" can also signify to the reader there's a focus on the form or style... "formal fiction" is a possibility, I guess, but considering what "informal" and "formal" mean to most people, that also sounds stuffy... Yeah, I'm at a loss.
@@blossom357 it's just name lil bro how would you want it to be called
So, since you are normally a pantser, why when you realized this was not going to work, did you not just revert to what works? Why put yourself through all of this? Secondarily why not just write what you are going to write, and figure out which genre or not it fits into after the fact? This seems like a lot of trauma for no reason. Books frequently get placed in a different genre by bookstores anyway. There are no extra cookies at the end of the day for torturing yourself.
I had already outlined the book so there wasn't really any going back since I had already planned everything so the route to discover it as I wrote was gone. I referred to the outline as minimally as I could but the damage was done.
Also, it was fairly obvious the book was fantasy from the concept so that wasn't really something to figure out after because it was obvious from the initial idea that this was a fantasy book (set in a secondary world, containing magic--like it was obviously fantasy).
I wouldn't call it trauma--it was just a creative process that didn't work out as I hoped. I adjusted the best as I could while writing--I know how to think critically and adjust as needed with my process!--but unfortunately I couldn't make it work.
@@ShaelinWrites From this side of the screen, I would perform an exorcism on it, then perhaps douse it in holy water and/or salt before locking it in a crypt. lol
I watched half of this and I still don't understand what you want to talk about so I start back in the beginning while writing this comment.
First of all, evaluating the process of writing isn't the same job as evaluating the quality of writing. If you want to talk about the former, then your title was a clickbait.
Second, what the hell do you mean "quality"? If you want to talk about the text has the intended effects, then why don't you talk about "effectiveness" or "successful" or the opposite of those terms? What kind of ideas you try to invoke if you use "quality"?
Last but not least, I have no idea what this book was about. I can't imagine a specific image out of all you descriptions in this video. The abstractness has lost me even if I do give this video a second watch.
Bro calm down
Hpw is this clickbate
@@john80944 as stated at the beginning, I don’t share what my work is about any more because I have been plagiarized. The point of the video wasn’t to air every specific issue with my book, but to reflect on the emotions writing it brought me.
This video was about how the process went on to affect the quality in a negative way. The title was not clickbait. In fact I discussed at length the exact topic stated in the title.
I liked this video. Not everything has to be positive. Sometimes it's nice to know that I'm not the only one struggling with this writing thing.