I resonate SO much with this discussion! even as an outliner myself, you’re right that outlining won’t necessarily solve your issues. i love hearing you speak about writing sff as a discovery writer bc i personally love planning my plot out in advance but i’ve found that some of the best images, motifs and scene-level moments have come organically and it’s just impossible to plan for those things. i’m trying to find the balance that works for me. passion is something i find that i have to rediscover constantly, almost at the outset of every writing session, especially with a first draft. currently i’m working so slowly through my fourth book, also a fantasy novel, and i can relate to everything you touched upon. love your honest writing chats as always ✨
I would LOVE someday to find that balance for myself but it's been a real challenge. I can't seem to find a way to both outline (for projects that might need it) and still have those in-the-moment epiphanies I get while discovery writing. Hopefully someday I can hack that but I can't quite figure it out yet
I was 85,000 words into a novel that was only 1/5 of the story. As this was so vast a project, I was scooped by a (friend) who jumped in and wrote a novel on the same topic. I concluded I had not spent enough time with historical fiction so I took a break to research the topic. This delayed me a long time but finally, after 15 years I was encouraged to finish writing by a friend who loved what I had created. That was enough to get me back into the project and now it is nearly finished. I decided to turn the story into a trilogy, and am so energized by the first chapters that the remainder is evolving with its own energy. I hope you can return to complete what you have begun, not give up, but plan to return when it is fully the right time for you. Good luck to you and those who get stalled on a book that has them frustrated. You can win with this thing.
Glad you expanded your craft skills to realize books of that super long length always need to be trimmed/parlayed into a series! Guess it speaks to the crucial bits of perspective a writer can gain from setting down the book for years! 💖
I think that people frame the outlining vs discovery writing/pantsing discussion as a pros and cons debate, when it’s really a process of self-discovery.
I resonated with what you said about second-guessing yourself because of others' opinions- it's so difficult being surrounded by so many opinions from an audience as well as in real life- it almost feels like a communal gaslighting, even if that wasn't the intent haha. It's really disappointing when a project doesn't turn out. I'm so glad your MFA project has reignited your spark!
Soo relate to this! Managing my own process alongside so many outside opinions has been very challenging. I've been trying to share less and less in order to protect my process (and peace lmao) but that also enables people to make more assumptions with no basis in reality which can be frustrating. 'Communal gaslighting' is honestly how it feels sometimes but I'm trying to get better at withstanding that.
i’ve always admired your candid reflections. the first time you mentioned not every story needs to be a novel, not every idea needs to be fully formed or fleshed out, it took a weight off my shoulders. the ideas i have would take me years and years to write. i can’t promise i’ll do them all justice. i can’t promise i’ll get past writing the second act or the first draft. and that’s okay. the story can just exist in my head or whatever iteration it becomes. it’s encouraging to hear, esp in this period of hyper productivity/output, that you’re prioritizing your education but also what you’ll actually have fun writing 💜
Your many videos on literary fiction helped me ALSO come to terms with the fact that literary fiction is what I truly love. It has changed my whole perspective on writing and invigorated me to pursue it seriously again. THANK YOU!
I’m experiencing this exact thing with my novel now, and I am also someone for whom outlining *ruins* my writing. This video made me feel seen. Thanks for posting it
My favorite lesson I've ever learned in terms of creative work is 'Nothing is sacred'. Don't cling to processes or the 'good bits' of something if it's not working as a whole. I learned it at a painting class after the professor spent a half hour on a demo painting before he threw a loaded paint brush straight at it. Basically, it's a poetic way to say don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy. Also, failed works are not a waste of time. You learn more from failure than success.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I actually see myself in this video a lot. Being a discovery writer for me is basically "start writing as soon as I have a vague idea and run with it". If I hold out, I just think about it too much, and it dissolves into nothingness or endless outlining in my head. Also, regarding the genre talk ... yeah, same. I like genre that are grounded in reality much more, mostly because I realized I don't like world building myself. It goes into the same box as planning/outlining. I just ruin my own spontaneity with this xD But I also learned throughout all my unfinished WIPS that some ideas are not meant to be written down. Or they sound way better in theory ... and that's totally OK as well! And also, that themes and characters tend to stick way more than settings, and will probably come back around in another story :)
Whether you decide to continue it or not in 2 years, I admire your ability to prioritise and cut losses if you need to yet keep moving on with your life and projects. I also really appreciate this video because it's giving me the confidence to trust myself to discovery write my fantasy novel after a long time feeling useless because I couldn't outline. Thank you for sharing
Thank you for being so candid about your creative journey. It makes me feel seen and a lot more comfortable with my own struggles and confusion, because it's so easy today to fall into a hustle-writing mode, but I choose to stay away from it. I feel the constant push to create and publish, but I'm committed to not giving in to these pressures. I'm still discovering myself and I'm going to take my time getting to know myself as a writer. All this confidence and sense of security has come from your videos, for which I'm honestly so grateful. Good luck with your MFA thesis; sending good vibes :)
I relate to a lot of what you said. I came to writing with the idea that I was going to write fantasy, but now find myself enjoying writing everything but fantasy. It has been a bit of an adjustment. I’m currently in a 2-year writing program too, and I make a point to shut out the noise of the “ideas” that float around in an academic environment. It’s been very helpful. All the best.
Shutting out the academic atmosphere is so important if you know you are onto a fresh take. Those people can ruin the unique writer and what can be too original for the indoctrinated institutional system to appreciate.
I’m honestly so impressed you made this video. I really don’t appreciate much of the Authortube content but the honesty in this was so heartwarming. I totally understand how you feel and it’s something I struggle a lot with… I recently quit my job to focus on my writing (I can get it back whenever I want fortunately) but I’m in a bit of a self-esteem slump. To see someone with such a high profile going through the same thing is helpful. Thanks and keep going.
Thanks for this video and talking about this. I've experienced both the "drafting in public" bits where it was like I was promising too much or too differently than what I could actually deliver or what actually turned out happening and the "massive disappointment on finishing the rough draft" bit. The latter I'm so relieved to hear I'm not alone. Everyone talks about the idea of shitty first drafts and it's not going to look like your vision, but no one talks about how it feels when everything is off, forced, etc., and when there's no excitement at all. I'm glad to hear your thought process. It's helping me sort through what happened on my end. Emotional mirroring is so needed....
When i was young, i tried to dance in front of my friends. I got laughed at. So i just concluded i wasn't a dancer. Its not for me. Later in life, i learnt more about dancing, tried it, and i found i actually enjoyed it. Sometimes, failure is not evidence. A bad encounter is not always a large enough sample size to form a conclusion on. I think take some time off the draft, or try outlining another, before you close that door completely.
The new bookshelves are looking great! Sorry this book didn't work out, but having more conviction in yourself is still a net positive. Hope the MFA is treating you well!
The new filming space looks great and your new haircut is super-cute! This is good advice for writers who have written things that they hate. It's happened to me a few times. Usually, it was simply because I lost the passion for that story. Especially if the idea is more than a year old, a lot can happen in a year. We grow and change and sometimes we "outgrow" a story, even when we started it enthusiastically and loved the idea. Thank you for talking about this annoying topic in an honest and relatable way. Most of all, thank you for letting other writers know that this is NORMAL and will happen to everyone at some point. Outgrowing your own story doesn't make you a "bad" writer. It usually just means we've grown a lot since we started the story. Maybe this is something we should celebrate rather than feeling ashamed of it. It's better to hate something you haven't published yet than it is to hate something you've already published!
Wonderful video! I’m a big believer in doing what makes you happy and obviously literary fiction makes you happy, so do that! Which you are! As a hardcore pantser of novels myself, I also agree with what you said! I’m mostly a genre fiction writer and love writing SFFH genre novels and short stories (including YA/kidlit), but I’ve also written some literary fiction short stories and gotten them published because I just wanted to write about certain themes! One of my lit fic short stories that I wrote in March 2020 and has received 45-50 rejections is finally getting published next year! 🎉 I can’t believe you’re working on your thesis already and you just started your program! Excited to hear more about it. 😍
Omg congrats on your story! And haha I admit to being a bit over excited with my thesis--I didn't need to start it so soon but I was way too excited lol
It's so interesting to hear that there is a negative connotation attached to literary fiction in academia! Back in my day (I'm old), I felt like there was more pressure to write 'serious' stories. Anyway, I love that you're writing what's fun for you! I wish I had that realization earlier :)
I think it's a very recent development! When I was in my undergraduate the focus was very much on literary fiction but it seems things have changed in the past five or so years. I think it's great that students have more freedom to write whatever they want, but it is interesting seeing that now there is a bit of negativity around literary fiction rather than just accepting all genres as valid.
I know the feeling with the one I just spent the last several years on. After 1st draft, I still felt like "this is the stupidest thing ever"; the plot and worldbuilding were still forming. Halfway through 2nd draft was when I finally felt I had something worthwhile. 3rd draft actually might have been the hardest - that was the real polish and "kill your darlings" stage.
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on this! I know you say it wasn't really an "uplifting" video, but I personally found hearing about the trajectory and ultimate conclusion of this project really refreshing and validating. It's so true that sometimes ideas are better just existing in your head, and that not every project needs to "succeed" as a product to be worthwhile, or for the process of creating it to be a meaningful learning/growing experience. Also love that you came out of this situation with a greater appreciation for your own likes and joys re genre! There is so much unnecessary snobbery and gatekeeping from both sides of the genre infighting trenches lol, can't we all just get along...
Hearing your perspective helped me get back into writing but also into a better writing mindset. After a few weeks I'm closer to finishing my first 100+ page project, which is great, but now I am also focusing on looking inward, drafting with purpose, finding what can be made better v needs to be cut, etc. Really stoked to continue writing after this project. Thanks for sharing your experiences on your process, and all the best!
I hope you do revisit the fantasy book. You said you were writing the first third with a speed and vigour that you aren't used to, which suggests something was really clicking at that point. My advice if you want it, after your studying, revisit the first third, ditch the outline and discovery write from there.
I see your point but I view it more like a spectrum; like, how much of it is it going to be different from our world really affects the difficulty. What is way more difficult to write in my own experience is mystery and thrillers, because they need to be very meticulously plotted and thought out regardless of how complex the plot actually is, even in terms of the actual legalities of some of those things depending on setting if that plays a part.
@darkmatter9651 I hear ya. Because my sci-fi novel ALSO contains a crime investigation POV AND it is set in another world. So not only I had to research legal stuff extensively, I also had to apply it within the context of that world
I wouldn't personally say the *most* difficult because I think difficulty is relative to the person, but they are for sure very technical/complex genres and this can make them very challenging for a lot of people--myself included!
@@ShaelinWrites I agree. I just meant that those genres tend to be more difficult because they have added complexities: You have to deal with worldbuilding, magic systems, mythical creatures, etc. ON TOP of all the complexity of the characters and plot
I think it’s kind of funny that you say that your friends, family and the internet’s reaction to you writing fantasy again was that you’re letting yourself have fun when that was not my reaction lmao! My reaction was more “oh I remember it wasn’t working for you, I’m excited that you’re trying something again even if it didn’t work for you because something about it sparked your excitement” Something bringing you joy by sparking your creative itch is way more important than genre. I think literary fiction is great and incredibly fun to craft (most of my stories lean that way) so it’s kinda sad people don’t think you can enjoy that process and genre even if the stories have a very specific connotation for most people.
I would love to talk about it more at some point! I fear that it is a topic that causes a lot of controversy that can be...unpleasant to deal with, in part because no matter how many times I say 'this is just the genre I like to write, I am not saying nor do I think that it is better than any other genre' people still project that opinion on to me any time I talk about literary fiction and get very combative with me. But, it is my preferred genre and a genre really close to my heart so I'd love to find a way to talk about it more!
@ShaelinWrites I totally understand. That is actually why a lot of creators I follow don't talk about it because of those combative reactions. It's sad because no matter how much people disclaimer, there are still negative responses. We should have more discussions about literary fiction so that maybe it sheds that "pretentious" air/reputation people have assigned to it.
You said it right Shaelin. You are prioritising other more important projects. Writing your fantasy book was a learning experience and you learnt a lot from it. It will be interesting looking back at it in say, 10 years. Well done.
I can understand your feeling of guilt when shelving a project. I'm actually picking up a WIP that I wrote 2 years ago and am going to rewrite it. I may shelve it again, but just giving it another shot... just in case.
I started a book and abandoned it in 2000. Picked it up again in 2020. Couldn’t get very far. Now on its third rewrite I finally have the shape of it. I was the age of the protagonist and now I’m the age of the protagonist’s parents. That’s the perspective I needed. I love your videos.
As a discovery writer working on a fantasy story, I have to actively reign myself in planning it all out inside of my head and accidentally outlining the whole damn book. I’ve sacrificed too many projects that were over-planned to the extent that there was nothing left to discover on the page. It can be a painful experience to write against your nature, but so worth it if you gain some validation for the writing process that works for you!
One of my favorite projects felt exactly like what you described here. I wrote a quick vague outline and got going discovering the world... and after the first fifteen thousand words I started feeling like I was printer running out of ink. I wrote 40K words before dropping it in disgust. Six months later, it was still on my mind and I realized the problem. The story had the bones of what it needed, but it was missing the blood that would make me actually care enough to be there long enough to finish it. I'd been making little forays into discovery writing various little chunks of scenes and places and scenarios, trying to find what I was missing. I certainly managed to find what I really liked about the story. At one point I was writing and all I could think about was that I just wanted permission to put in the things I really liked into the story. Just some surface level fantasy elements. And then I realized that I could. I could just... put in the stuff I liked writing. I just needed to make it work with the sci fi world, adapt it properly. Now it's one of my most developed stories. I've done enough discovery snapshots to get enough material to properly build the world and the characters in detail. And now that I've got enough worked out separately I'm finally working on having fun weaving the plot together. Like most of my stuff, it's mostly character driven, but I actually found some sprinklings of plot hidden in some of the other character's motives, so that was a fun discovery. I've certainly had fun making lists of all the stuff that makes me happy and finding ways to integrate them into the story. I'll probably need to prune a good amount of them after finishing the "first" draft of this version, but at least I'll have fun writing just about everything in this story now, hahah So, all of this to say, I'm glad you're taking the time you need to put the project to the side and work on something you enjoy now. Maybe whenever or if you get back to it, you'll find new ways to weave in the things you love about both literary fiction and fantasy into a book you'll enjoy writing. Who knows? Either way, thank you for sharing these parts of your process with us. I'm glad to know that even published writers with several books under their belt can struggle and decide to put things down as well. Thank you for showing such a human side to writing, even when it's unpleasant for you. I hope you have a nice day :)
There is a HUGE anti-intellectualism push everywhere right now unfortunately and it absolutely is bleeding in to disliking literary fiction and a complete lack of media literacy. No one wants to think very hard everything needs to be obvious and fast and exciting
Thank for sharing this video. I had my baby earlier this year and for some reason my writing has disappeared. Before when my brain was full of ideas, now it is empty. I've felt lost and unable to find my writing again. But watching your videos are such a comfort. I watched them so much when I was learning. I love how organic your writing process seems now and how after so long you are still learning and changing. I hope I can get my writing back one day, but until then I have your videos so thank you!
Maybe literary magical realism might be more up your alley? Fantasy can be a very broad category and maybe the type you tried to write doesn't work well with your style.
@@annaa3772 I have written literary magical realism before and love it! I wouldn’t try to consciously generate a fantasy idea because it’s not my usual genre, but since this idea happened intuitively and it excited me I wanted to pursue it.
I'm coming back to your channel after a couple of years away, and it's great to hear you're starting a Masters! (I think I last watched when you were finishing undergrad). I agree with so much of what you said here. I can't even imagine writing with an outline. I feel like I at least need a kind of 'zero draft' to get all the ideas out and see how they work on the page. They so often take a completely different shape than they did in my head, with the focus of the story sometimes changing completely. And I also don't think that's a failing - outlining is a tool, so if it works, use it; if it doesn't, don't. I also really relate to what you said at the end about letting an idea live in your head. I have one idea in particular that I've tried to write half a dozen times over the last decade and it just doesn't work the way I imagine it. I have much more fun just thinking about those characters than writing them, so I've given up!
I understand where you're coming from. My third book, which I am writing now, was largely a discovery written for the first draft, but it went off at several tangents so I will have to outline and so it will be the opposite of you. The structure is all over the place and some of it isn't well thought out. The second draft is very difficult and there are some difficult decisions to make..So, I get where you're coming from.
I so rarely write comments online, but I felt compelled to after watching this video. Perspective is a funny thing. I always look at Shaelin as such a confident writer, the level to which I can only dream of (or, work my a** off for!). Yet here, she shows she is one of "me". She had a moment of doubt about her genre, but I'm glad she decided what was right for her. She said this video wasn't "positive," but what is more positive than being human and showing up as such.❤
So happy that you're back. Thanks for this valuable video. Thoughts: 1) totally okay to abandon this novel and chock it up to a learning experience 2) give it a rest for several months and if you feel like it read it again to see if it is better than you think today 3) when and if you feel like tackling it again, start over with the vision in your head. You'll still have the foundation of what you wrote already. // I wrote a mystery novella and didn't think much of it and put it aside for 8 months. I read it again and think it's pretty good. I'm going to enhance it (deepen characters, add some scenes, etc.) and then see where I land. Wishing you happy writing with your MA thesis!
Okay first things first, the backdrop is awesome and you're looking more and more beautiful! Maybe its the hair or maybe its in the MFA air? Secondly, I just realised I've only finished the works taht I discovery wrote and was never able to finish the stories I plotted. I think trying to shove yourself in the mold A when you're B is self atrocity. I dont like fantasy and that's fine. More so because I like low stakes stuff and fantasy is not about that most of the times. Scorpio Races is a fantasy plot that I loved because it was low stakes, it was more like literary fiction but with tamed(?) carnivorous horses that people use to race at the beach every year in November. It was cosy. I loved it. And I realised thats what I want in my reading and writing experience - a cosy touch. If a project is no longer giving me that comfort while I'm reading or writing it, I'll just drop it. Because I simply can not jeopardize my relationship with wordsmithery.
Awww, Shaelin, I'm so so sorry that this whole story and the journey with it was a bad experience... :( As a fellow discovery writer I can resonate with you very much. I think it's a great achievement that you shake yourself (with all the hard emotions, the loss, the disappointbent) and say it out loud that this is not your way (at least not this way, perhaps a more discovery way?). Perhaps a few year from now it won't look so bad at the end, perhaps you will find crumbs of idea, characters or anything else which you would like to transfer to another project, or you will find a way to make the whole thing work and spark for you again. I wrote 85,000 words and much more idea notes for an enormous world, created the whole thing as a pantser, then I figured out there were more story lines in that, more POV-s, and so the whole thing just started become bigger and bigger. There was no exact straight plot but it was fun, and though it doesn't work yet (after 4 years of writing), there's still joy in it. Honestly it was bit of a shock for me to see that the plotting killed this story for you. :( I can't plot either, the things I've already found out doesn't make me curious anymore. I was planning to start plot this story after all, just because people around me make it this way and perhaps that was the problem, the lack ot plotting -- but your video was a huge red flag before that route. I know it's not comforting but you helped me and I think you've just saved my novels life. >< Thank you! I'm also very interested in Honey Vinegar, if there will be a way to buy it! Keep writing on and be yourself! Big ghost hug from Hungary!
I’m writing an action comedy, the first draft is bad and I’ve learned so much. I’m trying to do a lot of action engrained with the main characters journey. So I try to follow Natural conclusions of what would allow both action & comedy to work together simultaneously. It’s really helpful, especially since a lot of the plot is gonna be reworked and I’m working towards an ending.
This is so interesting because it's the opposite for me in many ways. I'm a natural outliner, and I can't discovery write. Though I do take inspiration in the moment and steer away from outlines, those good ideas come to me as a part of the process and cannot be detached from outlining. Then with genres, I've been reading and writing fantasy all my life, and though the books can be long and intense, I'm comfortable with the expectations of the genre. It's like I khow them in my bones. I can meet them without thinking. The same cannot be said for any genre outside of sci fi & fantasy. The idea of writing a romance, for example, is so daunting to me. I think processes and genres and stories that seem complex are often easier to write for some people because writing something "simpler" or more raw and understated is actually really tough because you have to feel it so deeply and execute it with such nuance. I agree that there's no shame in admitting you can do one but not the other.
This video was like listening to myself. I completely agree that literary fiction can feel freeing as lit fic novels tend to be more character and mood driven rather than plot driven. I've been trying to write a fantasy for years and the plot feels sooooo important in a way that just feels so unnatural for me. I want to play with words on the page.
I think for many viewers the project was interesting because we were curious how will your fantasy turn out now, after you have acquired significant chops in literary fiction genre. If it didn't turned out the way you wanted - so be it. Even if this wasn't an artistic success, I think you've learned a lot about yourself in the process and this has a value of its own.
After more than a decade of failed attempts to write a novel, what finally convinced me to stop outlining and try discovery writing instead was realising that I am autistic. When I heard a psychologist explain that autistic people tend to be bottom-up thinkers rather than top-down thinkers, it clicked for me that this could apply to fiction writing. It's not natural for my brain to start with the bigger picture, to sketch out an outline, and then gradually find the right details which will fulfill the original vision. I need to start with a small idea, to collect bits and pieces, and then gradually arrange those details until the bigger picture is revealed. It's not that I'm incapable of the top-down way of writing, it's just much less exciting, less intuitive, and less fruitful. Both the process and the end result are significantly better when I take a bottom-up approach. But for years, I had been convinced by so many people's well-meaning writing advice that outlining was the way to go, that being able to "pants" a good novel was something that only a handful of people had ever pulled off. Maybe outlining works best for the majority of writers, and that could be 51% of people, or maybe it's more like 75% or even 90%, but I doubt that it's for 99.999999999% like it's often made out to be. If someone is a natural outliner, discovery writing may sound like some kind of fluke, like 'magic', but as a natural 'pantser', the thought of being able to see the overall vision, even a blurry one, before you've even started to gather details... THAT is what sounds like 'magic' to me! Maybe it would be more helpful if we thought of these two processes, not as apples and oranges, but as following the same path in opposite directions. Whether you outline or discover, it's always a matter of arranging shapes and colours into a pattern, with the difference being that you either start with the idea for a beautiful pattern and then play around with various shapes and colours until the pattern feels complete, or you start with a beautiful shape or colour and then keep adding more shapes and colours until a pattern emerges.
The fantasy writers I know are inherent plotters... I wonder if there is a connection. You articulate yourself so well here. Love from a fellow discovery writer / literary fiction lover :)
I'm writing the 2nd draft of a fantasy adventure. My first draft was worse than the previous story I wrote a year ago. The word count for fantasy(epic) is 90k-100k, and I was way under the amount at 75k. So now, I've outlined more events, scenes, & locations to add. The total word count comes after it's completely done, but so far, it's going good.
I've been writing books since 2008 and have had to abandon two in that time. It's a slow, very painful realization, but ultimately the right thing to do. Plus, they then become fodder for other projects. One of my favorite short stories came out of the remnants of a failed novel.
I have been going through the same thing. I've restarted the beginning of my draft at least 5 times over the last few months. I love the concept, but there's something less exciting about it. I think I'm in a better place with it now and I like it more, but this has been the hardest one to draft.
Preface: I write primarily fantasy. One time, I wrote a novel and ended up with a similar perspective on a first draft. My solution was to make some small conceptual changes and then rewrite from scratch. Also, outlining when that's not your style is tough. I primarily discovery-write most of the books I've produced over the past 10 years. However, after over 20 years of writing novels, I'd say I only just got to the point where I'm able to effectively sense my way through the writing process and discover intricate plot like what you discussed in the book you completed this summer. Anyway, I don't have serious advice for you because you're already an accomplished writer. I really like your point about how you enjoy writing literary fiction, because even though I'm not the same way, I recognize the feeling. Writing something I don't enjoy is the surest way to make a book I don't like reading. Hang in there.
All of the luck to you for grad school, and the workload that goes with it. Project TEBO never stood out to me from your descriptions. So you're right, there's no love lost. Considering it's the same way for you, I think the conclusion we can make is that the level of enthusiasm directly effects the execution rather than the premise. "Outlining will not save you" is the advice I should be following. Unfortunately, the OCD part of me thrives on outlines ... I will never not outline. And yes it's very much a procrastination tactic and a vicious cycle, because the more I think about execution on the actual page, the angrier I get at myself for no reason. (This has rarely happened with plays; pretty much only with novels. As a playwright I've triumphed time and again.) *Okay quick edit on this:* People's "having fun again" remark in reference to you stepping away from literary fiction was something so baffling I at first chose not to comment on it. But I think in its own way it's A. very backhanded on fantasy by designating it the funny farm, and B. dismissive of the completed works of the great Shaelin Bishop by implying their more focused thematic tone can be equated to a lack of access from emotions, even for the author herself. To which I say to them: calm the hell down, we haven't even read Honey Vinegar yet. If Shaelin says she enjoyed and loved them, TAKE HER WORD FOR IT, OKAY?
I have hit the wall with my book. I set out to do a thing, but knackered that thing in the very way I was protesting always happens. I'll get back to it. Soon, I hope. I just have to try to remember why I was excited about it in the first place. Reading my outline does that. I'll never understand pantsers. I also don't have to. Pantsers gonna pants. It's cool. Whatever works for them, y'know?
You should write what you enjoy! Nothing wrong with literary fiction. I agree completely with what you said. No genre should be held above another. I read pretty much everything though, including literary fiction. I'm sorry the story didn't work for you but i'm glad you found what you really enjoy writing. I'm a discovery writer to and I hate that it's been romanticized because while it's how I work and I love it I don't want to come across like I think it's better than outlining. Different people, different brains, different tastes. That's all. :) Good luck!
I also wrote my book and hated it at first, well, there was some plot problems with it and I had just put it aside. Years later I read it over again and i liked it. I think I just needed the space to get a different perspective on it. I think you need to do the same. Its probably not as bad as you think.
Gail Carson Levine writes fantasy by feel. She has an idea, writes everything down and then carves out the things that don't work until she finds the final story. I think a very basic outline was probably a good idea for your book. Where your characters start, where they're going and a few guideposts along the way to keep them moving in the right direction. You would be under no obligation to continue along that path if you found a better route to your destination, but if you have complex interwoven plot lines, it would be difficult to keep them all moving in the same direction without something to hold them together. A one sentence summary may be enough. Probably no more than a paragraph. As for myself, I am a strong planner. I did my first book for NaNoWriMo last year, and had the worst problems with parts that were just vague concepts in my notes. Once I had to erase 800 words and rewrite the section because I found a better approach while writing, but the work was worth it. Again, the book doesn't necessarily follow the outline on all points, and I have to go back and insert references to important plot points I discovered in later chapters so they don't just pop up from nowhere, but I was so pleased I'm preparing more detailed notes for this year.
I resonate a lot because I also once wrote a fantasy novel I wasn´t proud of. It was a NaNoWriMo book and I shelved it, never came back to it. I´m glad I wrote it because I learned a lot, it has 60k words but it´s not good at all and that´s okay. One day I will write an amazing book and so will you.
I am about to launch into my 10th book. Every first draft is less than ideal. All you can do is put your head down and grind it out. If the concepts is NG, don't bother. Do the next book instead. Writing is hard work and the work doesn't care how you feel about it. "Do or do not, there is no try," Yoda
Happy to see you back. Moving the microphone closer will improve audio quality. Brandon Sanderson says he outlines the plot and pantses the characters. Yup, you've always come across as liking literary fiction.
Thanks for making this video. There's a fantasy book that I want to write but I've been putting it off. Even when I say, "I want to do something a little different [from what I normally do]", it's towards the bottom of my list for potential projects because I'm afraid that I can't pull it off. I've written and published three books now (I'm nearing the end of my first draft on my fourth). All three of them (and the one I'm drafting now are different but they all have something in common in one way: they're very character focused and they're more psychological. BUNNY BOY is a psychological horror novel. THE FIFTH LINE is a psychological paranormal mystery/thriller. THE LEGEND OF GROOVY HOLLOW is a psychological middle grade sports drama...with some ghosts. If I can write a fantasy novel that is both character-driven and psychological, I think it can be good. But it still scares me.
I have a manuscript written, that I really enjoyed writing. But I get frustrated at not being a better writer. I'm frustrated at the prospect of having to rewrite every scene, and the feeling that my inexperience writing will only lead to modest improvements.
For a long time I wanted to write a big epic action fantasy story but now I realized through this video I can't write fantasy even though I love reading it. I might switch gears and try to dip my toes into a different genre I feel a bit more confident in writing. I might try to write horror comedy. I started writing horror short stories when I was a kid so I might do that but since I can't take anything seriously a part of me wants to write a super campy funny horror novel in the same vain as like Dead Alive or Cabin in the Woods. This video just helped me realize I am writing maybe in the wrong genre and I am thankful I watched this video before I gave up writing.
I've been through something similar with one of my manuscripts. I know the feeling. I'm three drafts in and its still not really working. There's a lot of stuff I like and want to salvage but when I put it all together it's just... meh. My soul just can't handle reworking it again. So I think it's time to be broken down for parts.
Thank you so much for sharing your journey with us. I've always worried about that. What if I finish the book and I don't like it? What then? I honestly believe that happens when we write for someone else instead of ourselves. I think you can make something very beautiful and unique out of this idea if you let go of the genre constraints and write lit fic fantasy for yourself.
I think that not liking your first draft is probably normal. Maybe if you rethought the story in the future like you said after your masters it might spark some interest in you again. Some things just aren't going to work, and they need to be changed, and that's fine. But hey, good luck with your future projects and I hope you at least enjoy your next one!
It might be normal for some people but unfortunately it's not normal for me. I talked about this in the video but maybe it got buried- the issue for me with this draft isn't that it has problems and stuff that didn't work (that always happens with a first draft and is a given) but that nothing about it excites me, which is a very different problem.
If a soccer player runs hard, kicks a goal, and it bounces off the post... where does the soccer player keep that miss? In a binder under the bed? In their heart? Maybe they just forget it, then train hard, play hard, practice, practice more, and seek coaching. Every miss is a stepping stone up to the next game winning goal.
I want to write literary fiction that’s fantasy, science fiction, horror and I am so freaking confused. My first love is fantasy, I used to look up my nose at literary fiction through watching your videos since I was 16 or 18 idk lol you helped me discover the beauty of it. But I cannot think how to blend how blend those elements. I think I want to outline and discovery write cause for me trying to do one or another hurts my brain well melts it. But then I can’t figure out how to do both either. And short stories are the fucking bane of my existence I can’t seem to write I think the novel is superior (I know it’s false ) plus I love short fiction, and 32 first drafts of poems I feel like an imposter cause I never will be a real poet (idk what that means) I want to write speculative poetry only . All my writing is confessional writing even within the fiction, poetry, short stories you make me want to believe in myself thanks for being vulnerable ❤ Congrats on the mfa your the reason why I realized I want to be a creative writing and literature studies teacher 🎉 Favorite story by I will never tell you, Elise holding a deer mouse, and you know where you body is buried ( I was talking to the Liberians about your short stories) How to gut a fish when you are a first made me realized I could write poems, before the 32 poems I only write one poem in high school I studied and read poetry intensely outside and inside of school, but felt like I couldn’t do both cause that was greedy (the mind is so irrational lol) 😢❤ And thank you to all the other commenters Cheers to writing literary fantasy, sci fi, and horror 🤠🥳🥳🥳👏🏿 or whatever you guys want to write 🥹🥹❤️🩹🥶
I have just completed a grimdark fantasy novel just tonight. It is in very rough shape at the moment, amd does not feel dark enough for my taste It does not help that i am a hardcore panster, and didn't work from a solid outline, just a detailed main character profile
Don't want to be rude, but please get a better mic or sound isolation. I just feel like your videos are gonna be easier to digest with a clearer sound from what you're saying. Good to see you back!
Stick it in a drawer for a few months. Come back to it after that time has passed. Maybe your opinion on your work will be unchanged & there's no recourse other than to take it out to the woodshed & quietly put it out of your misery, or maybe you'll remember why you wrote it in the first place & know what to do to make it better.
Genre fiction by its very definition implies restrictions, tropes, expectations. Literary fiction is basically everything that doesn’t fit a genre - so it can be whatever you want it to be. It’s not elitist - it’s just different.
Would you consider rewriting this story as literary fiction with fantasy weaved into it? I'm currently writing a story which just so happens to be a fantasy lesbian romance as well, and I totally get how you feel. I went on a six month hiatus with it because I felt frustrated by the complicated plot I was creating and not having the tools to make it work. But taking that time was great and it helped me figure out what was missing. Maybe if you come at the story from an angle you feel more comfortable with and with more time to figure out what the plot or main character arc is missing, you can recreate the story in a way you can be happy with it.
*pops open folded chair and plops down~ NO! I see your "I hate my project" set down in defense position and I cast it into the graveyard. EDIT: I change my mind. I'm happy you are free from a project that's become dead weight 💜
Honestly, it sounds like everyone else set you up for failure. Celebrating that you were now "free to have fun" writing fantasy would, for me, place that expectation and ensure that I NOT have fun writing it 😅 Maybe there's a way you can write that fantasy the same way you write literary fiction. Or heck, just write a literary fiction story in a fantasy setting. There's definitely an audience for that!
I know I’m late to this but in case you ever pick up writing this genre again, I for one would much rather like to read fantasy that shows it’s written by a literary fiction author than something strictly genre conforming. Your perspective on fiction is a potentially transformative feature, it shouldn’t be a weight dragging on your process.
Fair question, I meant to cover this in the video but forgot to! Basically I wanted to keep the door open to come back to edit the book down the line eventually, and I just had a feeling that if I bailed mid-draft I would never come back to finish it.
However, there is no need to learn outlining! Surgeons must learn surgery, engineers must learn engineering, but outlining is only one of many paths towards writing a book. It's not a necessary skill. If it's one a writer wants to learn, they can learn it, but it's far from the only way to write.
@@ShaelinWrites No, there is no need to learn anything, but I have the nagging suspicion that many people who fail at outlining don't actually know how to outline well. They are using outlining the way a very amateur person uses outlining or taking things like Save the Cat way too literally. They actually don't understand the complex, evolving, multi-layered and organic nature of outlining. What I've seen of these outliners is so basic sometimes I'm like, "That's not even remotely close to what professional writers call outlining." 😭😭😭 Like if your entire outlining is a one page beat sheet or scene list, I'm crying for you. You have only the most basic understanding and it's painful to watch. lol
@@stellamae6178 I have mad respect for people who can outline as you're describing - it's honestly so impressive. One of my close friends outlines like you and her outlines are probably longer than my completed drafts haha, I'm always amazed. My comment wasn't to deride outlining but to validate OP's self-understanding that outlining doesn't work for them, since there's been a strong anti-discovery writing sentiment on authortube for years (it's improving though). Just as a lot of discovery writers have a poor understanding of how outlining works, I think the reverse is also true - sooo many times I've seen discovery writing devalued by people who think discovery writers make everything up on a whim without any intention or deeper thought, or are just amateurs who will eventually come around to outlining, which obviously isn't true. That's why when I see comments like OP's, I find it important to validate their choice to discovery write since no one should feel like there is something wrong with them just because they prefer not to write from an outline. Some people may be bad at outlining I'm sure, but for some of them the solution might not be to just outline better but not to outline at all (though I'm sure for some, learning to outline better would be the best path - it's all individual).
I've always found fantasy 10 times harder to write, and the more I try to meet my internalized expectation of what fantasy is meant to be, the worse it gets. The emotional rawness of lit fic is instantly rewarding even when everything is a hot mess, but with fantasy it takes sooo much boring engineering to get to that place. Fantasy is absolutely more constrained, from a voice and line level, to way stricter expectations of what counts as a plot 😂 the idea that literary fiction is all pulling teeth and fantasy is effortless just seems like reverse genre snobbery. And often spec fic fans maintain the distinction just as hard, when in reality some of the best spec fic comes from authors approaching fantasy in a literary way (Susanna Clarke, Angela Carter, Kazuo Ishiguro... LOTR, even). I've had to evolve a completely different process for fantasy in which I can only describe as like a three-legged race with my outline, with a ton of breaks, fermenting, and rewriting. Your current feelings sound exactly like how I've felt about projects I did come to love... about three years later. Of course coming up with a whole world from scratch makes everything else harder! It makes complete sense to leave that aside at this time in your life. I hope this doesn't completely kill your interest in spec fic forever, though. ❤
Too often folks say laziness is why you don’t do something, really, it’s more often because you care too much to do it poorly/hastily.
I resonate SO much with this discussion! even as an outliner myself, you’re right that outlining won’t necessarily solve your issues. i love hearing you speak about writing sff as a discovery writer bc i personally love planning my plot out in advance but i’ve found that some of the best images, motifs and scene-level moments have come organically and it’s just impossible to plan for those things. i’m trying to find the balance that works for me.
passion is something i find that i have to rediscover constantly, almost at the outset of every writing session, especially with a first draft. currently i’m working so slowly through my fourth book, also a fantasy novel, and i can relate to everything you touched upon. love your honest writing chats as always ✨
I would LOVE someday to find that balance for myself but it's been a real challenge. I can't seem to find a way to both outline (for projects that might need it) and still have those in-the-moment epiphanies I get while discovery writing. Hopefully someday I can hack that but I can't quite figure it out yet
I was 85,000 words into a novel that was only 1/5 of the story. As this was so vast a project, I was scooped by a (friend) who jumped in and wrote a novel on the same topic. I concluded I had not spent enough time with historical fiction so I took a break to research the topic. This delayed me a long time but finally, after 15 years I was encouraged to finish writing by a friend who loved what I had created. That was enough to get me back into the project and now it is nearly finished. I decided to turn the story into a trilogy, and am so energized by the first chapters that the remainder is evolving with its own energy. I hope you can return to complete what you have begun, not give up, but plan to return when it is fully the right time for you. Good luck to you and those who get stalled on a book that has them frustrated. You can win with this thing.
Glad you expanded your craft skills to realize books of that super long length always need to be trimmed/parlayed into a series! Guess it speaks to the crucial bits of perspective a writer can gain from setting down the book for years! 💖
I think that people frame the outlining vs discovery writing/pantsing discussion as a pros and cons debate, when it’s really a process of self-discovery.
Absolutely!!
I resonated with what you said about second-guessing yourself because of others' opinions- it's so difficult being surrounded by so many opinions from an audience as well as in real life- it almost feels like a communal gaslighting, even if that wasn't the intent haha.
It's really disappointing when a project doesn't turn out. I'm so glad your MFA project has reignited your spark!
Soo relate to this! Managing my own process alongside so many outside opinions has been very challenging. I've been trying to share less and less in order to protect my process (and peace lmao) but that also enables people to make more assumptions with no basis in reality which can be frustrating. 'Communal gaslighting' is honestly how it feels sometimes but I'm trying to get better at withstanding that.
i’ve always admired your candid reflections. the first time you mentioned not every story needs to be a novel, not every idea needs to be fully formed or fleshed out, it took a weight off my shoulders. the ideas i have would take me years and years to write. i can’t promise i’ll do them all justice. i can’t promise i’ll get past writing the second act or the first draft. and that’s okay. the story can just exist in my head or whatever iteration it becomes. it’s encouraging to hear, esp in this period of hyper productivity/output, that you’re prioritizing your education but also what you’ll actually have fun writing 💜
Your many videos on literary fiction helped me ALSO come to terms with the fact that literary fiction is what I truly love. It has changed my whole perspective on writing and invigorated me to pursue it seriously again. THANK YOU!
Aww that makes me so happy!
I’m experiencing this exact thing with my novel now, and I am also someone for whom outlining *ruins* my writing. This video made me feel seen. Thanks for posting it
Joining the "outlining ruins my writing" gang 😅
You sound so clear, resolute and authentic in this assessment. Enjoy doing your MFA.
My favorite lesson I've ever learned in terms of creative work is 'Nothing is sacred'. Don't cling to processes or the 'good bits' of something if it's not working as a whole.
I learned it at a painting class after the professor spent a half hour on a demo painting before he threw a loaded paint brush straight at it. Basically, it's a poetic way to say don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy.
Also, failed works are not a waste of time. You learn more from failure than success.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I actually see myself in this video a lot. Being a discovery writer for me is basically "start writing as soon as I have a vague idea and run with it". If I hold out, I just think about it too much, and it dissolves into nothingness or endless outlining in my head. Also, regarding the genre talk ... yeah, same. I like genre that are grounded in reality much more, mostly because I realized I don't like world building myself. It goes into the same box as planning/outlining. I just ruin my own spontaneity with this xD
But I also learned throughout all my unfinished WIPS that some ideas are not meant to be written down. Or they sound way better in theory ... and that's totally OK as well! And also, that themes and characters tend to stick way more than settings, and will probably come back around in another story :)
I usually outline and then I start to ignore the outline halfway through the draft 😅
Can't wait to hear about your MFA!
Same for me! When you draft, you come up with better ideas than you had when you were outlining
Whether you decide to continue it or not in 2 years, I admire your ability to prioritise and cut losses if you need to yet keep moving on with your life and projects. I also really appreciate this video because it's giving me the confidence to trust myself to discovery write my fantasy novel after a long time feeling useless because I couldn't outline. Thank you for sharing
Thank you for being so candid about your creative journey. It makes me feel seen and a lot more comfortable with my own struggles and confusion, because it's so easy today to fall into a hustle-writing mode, but I choose to stay away from it. I feel the constant push to create and publish, but I'm committed to not giving in to these pressures. I'm still discovering myself and I'm going to take my time getting to know myself as a writer. All this confidence and sense of security has come from your videos, for which I'm honestly so grateful. Good luck with your MFA thesis; sending good vibes :)
totally unrelated to the topic of the video but this whole look is an absolute banger. the shirt, the earrings, the hair! im speechless
I relate to a lot of what you said.
I came to writing with the idea that I was going to write fantasy, but now find myself enjoying writing everything but fantasy. It has been a bit of an adjustment.
I’m currently in a 2-year writing program too, and I make a point to shut out the noise of the “ideas” that float around in an academic environment. It’s been very helpful.
All the best.
Shutting out the academic atmosphere is so important if you know you are onto a fresh take. Those people can ruin the unique writer and what can be too original for the indoctrinated institutional system to appreciate.
I’m honestly so impressed you made this video. I really don’t appreciate much of the Authortube content but the honesty in this was so heartwarming. I totally understand how you feel and it’s something I struggle a lot with… I recently quit my job to focus on my writing (I can get it back whenever I want fortunately) but I’m in a bit of a self-esteem slump. To see someone with such a high profile going through the same thing is helpful. Thanks and keep going.
Thanks for this video and talking about this. I've experienced both the "drafting in public" bits where it was like I was promising too much or too differently than what I could actually deliver or what actually turned out happening and the "massive disappointment on finishing the rough draft" bit. The latter I'm so relieved to hear I'm not alone. Everyone talks about the idea of shitty first drafts and it's not going to look like your vision, but no one talks about how it feels when everything is off, forced, etc., and when there's no excitement at all. I'm glad to hear your thought process. It's helping me sort through what happened on my end. Emotional mirroring is so needed....
When i was young, i tried to dance in front of my friends. I got laughed at. So i just concluded i wasn't a dancer. Its not for me. Later in life, i learnt more about dancing, tried it, and i found i actually enjoyed it.
Sometimes, failure is not evidence. A bad encounter is not always a large enough sample size to form a conclusion on.
I think take some time off the draft, or try outlining another, before you close that door completely.
I'm going to come back to the book after my masters degree to re-evaluate if I want to edit/rewrite it or put it aside!
The new bookshelves are looking great! Sorry this book didn't work out, but having more conviction in yourself is still a net positive. Hope the MFA is treating you well!
The new filming space looks great and your new haircut is super-cute! This is good advice for writers who have written things that they hate. It's happened to me a few times. Usually, it was simply because I lost the passion for that story. Especially if the idea is more than a year old, a lot can happen in a year. We grow and change and sometimes we "outgrow" a story, even when we started it enthusiastically and loved the idea. Thank you for talking about this annoying topic in an honest and relatable way. Most of all, thank you for letting other writers know that this is NORMAL and will happen to everyone at some point. Outgrowing your own story doesn't make you a "bad" writer. It usually just means we've grown a lot since we started the story. Maybe this is something we should celebrate rather than feeling ashamed of it. It's better to hate something you haven't published yet than it is to hate something you've already published!
Every project you write teaches you something. Sometimes what it teaches you is "this doesn't work for me."
I would absolutely love an MFA video, I'm so happy you're working on it. I'm applying to a program rn and its ~stressing me out~
Thank you for coming back!! Today just got better🎉🎉
Wonderful video! I’m a big believer in doing what makes you happy and obviously literary fiction makes you happy, so do that! Which you are! As a hardcore pantser of novels myself, I also agree with what you said!
I’m mostly a genre fiction writer and love writing SFFH genre novels and short stories (including YA/kidlit), but I’ve also written some literary fiction short stories and gotten them published because I just wanted to write about certain themes! One of my lit fic short stories that I wrote in March 2020 and has received 45-50 rejections is finally getting published next year! 🎉
I can’t believe you’re working on your thesis already and you just started your program! Excited to hear more about it. 😍
Omg congrats on your story! And haha I admit to being a bit over excited with my thesis--I didn't need to start it so soon but I was way too excited lol
It's so interesting to hear that there is a negative connotation attached to literary fiction in academia! Back in my day (I'm old), I felt like there was more pressure to write 'serious' stories. Anyway, I love that you're writing what's fun for you! I wish I had that realization earlier :)
I think it's a very recent development! When I was in my undergraduate the focus was very much on literary fiction but it seems things have changed in the past five or so years. I think it's great that students have more freedom to write whatever they want, but it is interesting seeing that now there is a bit of negativity around literary fiction rather than just accepting all genres as valid.
I know the feeling with the one I just spent the last several years on. After 1st draft, I still felt like "this is the stupidest thing ever"; the plot and worldbuilding were still forming. Halfway through 2nd draft was when I finally felt I had something worthwhile. 3rd draft actually might have been the hardest - that was the real polish and "kill your darlings" stage.
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on this! I know you say it wasn't really an "uplifting" video, but I personally found hearing about the trajectory and ultimate conclusion of this project really refreshing and validating. It's so true that sometimes ideas are better just existing in your head, and that not every project needs to "succeed" as a product to be worthwhile, or for the process of creating it to be a meaningful learning/growing experience. Also love that you came out of this situation with a greater appreciation for your own likes and joys re genre! There is so much unnecessary snobbery and gatekeeping from both sides of the genre infighting trenches lol, can't we all just get along...
Hearing your perspective helped me get back into writing but also into a better writing mindset. After a few weeks I'm closer to finishing my first 100+ page project, which is great, but now I am also focusing on looking inward, drafting with purpose, finding what can be made better v needs to be cut, etc. Really stoked to continue writing after this project. Thanks for sharing your experiences on your process, and all the best!
I hope you do revisit the fantasy book. You said you were writing the first third with a speed and vigour that you aren't used to, which suggests something was really clicking at that point. My advice if you want it, after your studying, revisit the first third, ditch the outline and discovery write from there.
Really glad you posted this. Hardly see anyone talking about this side of the writing process.
fantasy/sci-fi are probably the most difficult genres to write well. There's a lot that can go wrong
I see your point but I view it more like a spectrum; like, how much of it is it going to be different from our world really affects the difficulty. What is way more difficult to write in my own experience is mystery and thrillers, because they need to be very meticulously plotted and thought out regardless of how complex the plot actually is, even in terms of the actual legalities of some of those things depending on setting if that plays a part.
@darkmatter9651 I hear ya. Because my sci-fi novel ALSO contains a crime investigation POV AND it is set in another world. So not only I had to research legal stuff extensively, I also had to apply it within the context of that world
I wouldn't personally say the *most* difficult because I think difficulty is relative to the person, but they are for sure very technical/complex genres and this can make them very challenging for a lot of people--myself included!
@@ShaelinWrites I agree. I just meant that those genres tend to be more difficult because they have added complexities: You have to deal with worldbuilding, magic systems, mythical creatures, etc. ON TOP of all the complexity of the characters and plot
I think it’s kind of funny that you say that your friends, family and the internet’s reaction to you writing fantasy again was that you’re letting yourself have fun when that was not my reaction lmao! My reaction was more “oh I remember it wasn’t working for you, I’m excited that you’re trying something again even if it didn’t work for you because something about it sparked your excitement” Something bringing you joy by sparking your creative itch is way more important than genre. I think literary fiction is great and incredibly fun to craft (most of my stories lean that way) so it’s kinda sad people don’t think you can enjoy that process and genre even if the stories have a very specific connotation for most people.
I would love to hear more about your thoughts on literary fiction. I love it so much and there is never enough discussions on it
I would love to talk about it more at some point! I fear that it is a topic that causes a lot of controversy that can be...unpleasant to deal with, in part because no matter how many times I say 'this is just the genre I like to write, I am not saying nor do I think that it is better than any other genre' people still project that opinion on to me any time I talk about literary fiction and get very combative with me. But, it is my preferred genre and a genre really close to my heart so I'd love to find a way to talk about it more!
@ShaelinWrites I totally understand. That is actually why a lot of creators I follow don't talk about it because of those combative reactions. It's sad because no matter how much people disclaimer, there are still negative responses. We should have more discussions about literary fiction so that maybe it sheds that "pretentious" air/reputation people have assigned to it.
You said it right Shaelin. You are prioritising other more important projects. Writing your fantasy book was a learning experience and you learnt a lot from it. It will be interesting looking back at it in say, 10 years. Well done.
I love the honesty of this video and the fact writing should be for joy regardless of expectations
I can understand your feeling of guilt when shelving a project. I'm actually picking up a WIP that I wrote 2 years ago and am going to rewrite it. I may shelve it again, but just giving it another shot... just in case.
I started a book and abandoned it in 2000. Picked it up again in 2020. Couldn’t get very far. Now on its third rewrite I finally have the shape of it. I was the age of the protagonist and now I’m the age of the protagonist’s parents. That’s the perspective I needed. I love your videos.
As a discovery writer working on a fantasy story, I have to actively reign myself in planning it all out inside of my head and accidentally outlining the whole damn book. I’ve sacrificed too many projects that were over-planned to the extent that there was nothing left to discover on the page. It can be a painful experience to write against your nature, but so worth it if you gain some validation for the writing process that works for you!
One of my favorite projects felt exactly like what you described here. I wrote a quick vague outline and got going discovering the world... and after the first fifteen thousand words I started feeling like I was printer running out of ink. I wrote 40K words before dropping it in disgust.
Six months later, it was still on my mind and I realized the problem. The story had the bones of what it needed, but it was missing the blood that would make me actually care enough to be there long enough to finish it. I'd been making little forays into discovery writing various little chunks of scenes and places and scenarios, trying to find what I was missing. I certainly managed to find what I really liked about the story.
At one point I was writing and all I could think about was that I just wanted permission to put in the things I really liked into the story. Just some surface level fantasy elements. And then I realized that I could. I could just... put in the stuff I liked writing. I just needed to make it work with the sci fi world, adapt it properly.
Now it's one of my most developed stories. I've done enough discovery snapshots to get enough material to properly build the world and the characters in detail. And now that I've got enough worked out separately I'm finally working on having fun weaving the plot together. Like most of my stuff, it's mostly character driven, but I actually found some sprinklings of plot hidden in some of the other character's motives, so that was a fun discovery.
I've certainly had fun making lists of all the stuff that makes me happy and finding ways to integrate them into the story. I'll probably need to prune a good amount of them after finishing the "first" draft of this version, but at least I'll have fun writing just about everything in this story now, hahah
So, all of this to say, I'm glad you're taking the time you need to put the project to the side and work on something you enjoy now. Maybe whenever or if you get back to it, you'll find new ways to weave in the things you love about both literary fiction and fantasy into a book you'll enjoy writing. Who knows?
Either way, thank you for sharing these parts of your process with us. I'm glad to know that even published writers with several books under their belt can struggle and decide to put things down as well. Thank you for showing such a human side to writing, even when it's unpleasant for you.
I hope you have a nice day :)
There is a HUGE anti-intellectualism push everywhere right now unfortunately and it absolutely is bleeding in to disliking literary fiction and a complete lack of media literacy. No one wants to think very hard everything needs to be obvious and fast and exciting
I'm half way through my draft, saw this show up in my recommendeds, and Lord I hope it's not foreshadowing.
Thank for sharing this video. I had my baby earlier this year and for some reason my writing has disappeared. Before when my brain was full of ideas, now it is empty. I've felt lost and unable to find my writing again. But watching your videos are such a comfort. I watched them so much when I was learning. I love how organic your writing process seems now and how after so long you are still learning and changing. I hope I can get my writing back one day, but until then I have your videos so thank you!
Cannot wait for the MFA content!
Maybe literary magical realism might be more up your alley? Fantasy can be a very broad category and maybe the type you tried to write doesn't work well with your style.
@@annaa3772 I have written literary magical realism before and love it! I wouldn’t try to consciously generate a fantasy idea because it’s not my usual genre, but since this idea happened intuitively and it excited me I wanted to pursue it.
Very interesting points. Now, I must reevaluate everything about my work process.
I'm coming back to your channel after a couple of years away, and it's great to hear you're starting a Masters! (I think I last watched when you were finishing undergrad). I agree with so much of what you said here. I can't even imagine writing with an outline. I feel like I at least need a kind of 'zero draft' to get all the ideas out and see how they work on the page. They so often take a completely different shape than they did in my head, with the focus of the story sometimes changing completely. And I also don't think that's a failing - outlining is a tool, so if it works, use it; if it doesn't, don't. I also really relate to what you said at the end about letting an idea live in your head. I have one idea in particular that I've tried to write half a dozen times over the last decade and it just doesn't work the way I imagine it. I have much more fun just thinking about those characters than writing them, so I've given up!
I understand where you're coming from. My third book, which I am writing now, was largely a discovery written for the first draft, but it went off at several tangents so I will have to outline and so it will be the opposite of you. The structure is all over the place and some of it isn't well thought out. The second draft is very difficult and there are some difficult decisions to make..So, I get where you're coming from.
I so rarely write comments online, but I felt compelled to after watching this video. Perspective is a funny thing. I always look at Shaelin as such a confident writer, the level to which I can only dream of (or, work my a** off for!). Yet here, she shows she is one of "me". She had a moment of doubt about her genre, but I'm glad she decided what was right for her. She said this video wasn't "positive," but what is more positive than being human and showing up as such.❤
I wonder if picking that fantasy draft up in a couple years will look any different
So happy that you're back. Thanks for this valuable video. Thoughts: 1) totally okay to abandon this novel and chock it up to a learning experience 2) give it a rest for several months and if you feel like it read it again to see if it is better than you think today 3) when and if you feel like tackling it again, start over with the vision in your head. You'll still have the foundation of what you wrote already. // I wrote a mystery novella and didn't think much of it and put it aside for 8 months. I read it again and think it's pretty good. I'm going to enhance it (deepen characters, add some scenes, etc.) and then see where I land. Wishing you happy writing with your MA thesis!
Okay first things first, the backdrop is awesome and you're looking more and more beautiful! Maybe its the hair or maybe its in the MFA air?
Secondly, I just realised I've only finished the works taht I discovery wrote and was never able to finish the stories I plotted.
I think trying to shove yourself in the mold A when you're B is self atrocity. I dont like fantasy and that's fine. More so because I like low stakes stuff and fantasy is not about that most of the times.
Scorpio Races is a fantasy plot that I loved because it was low stakes, it was more like literary fiction but with tamed(?) carnivorous horses that people use to race at the beach every year in November.
It was cosy. I loved it.
And I realised thats what I want in my reading and writing experience - a cosy touch.
If a project is no longer giving me that comfort while I'm reading or writing it, I'll just drop it. Because I simply can not jeopardize my relationship with wordsmithery.
Awww, Shaelin, I'm so so sorry that this whole story and the journey with it was a bad experience... :( As a fellow discovery writer I can resonate with you very much. I think it's a great achievement that you shake yourself (with all the hard emotions, the loss, the disappointbent) and say it out loud that this is not your way (at least not this way, perhaps a more discovery way?). Perhaps a few year from now it won't look so bad at the end, perhaps you will find crumbs of idea, characters or anything else which you would like to transfer to another project, or you will find a way to make the whole thing work and spark for you again. I wrote 85,000 words and much more idea notes for an enormous world, created the whole thing as a pantser, then I figured out there were more story lines in that, more POV-s, and so the whole thing just started become bigger and bigger. There was no exact straight plot but it was fun, and though it doesn't work yet (after 4 years of writing), there's still joy in it. Honestly it was bit of a shock for me to see that the plotting killed this story for you. :( I can't plot either, the things I've already found out doesn't make me curious anymore. I was planning to start plot this story after all, just because people around me make it this way and perhaps that was the problem, the lack ot plotting -- but your video was a huge red flag before that route. I know it's not comforting but you helped me and I think you've just saved my novels life. >< Thank you! I'm also very interested in Honey Vinegar, if there will be a way to buy it! Keep writing on and be yourself! Big ghost hug from Hungary!
I’m writing an action comedy, the first draft is bad and I’ve learned so much. I’m trying to do a lot of action engrained with the main characters journey. So I try to follow Natural conclusions of what would allow both action & comedy to work together simultaneously. It’s really helpful, especially since a lot of the plot is gonna be reworked and I’m working towards an ending.
Im also trying to bend Reality TV and Set pieces together so it’s a whole weird thing
Love your videos
I liked this video. Not everything has to be positive. Sometimes it's nice to know that I'm not the only one struggling with this writing thing.
This is so interesting because it's the opposite for me in many ways.
I'm a natural outliner, and I can't discovery write. Though I do take inspiration in the moment and steer away from outlines, those good ideas come to me as a part of the process and cannot be detached from outlining.
Then with genres, I've been reading and writing fantasy all my life, and though the books can be long and intense, I'm comfortable with the expectations of the genre. It's like I khow them in my bones. I can meet them without thinking. The same cannot be said for any genre outside of sci fi & fantasy. The idea of writing a romance, for example, is so daunting to me.
I think processes and genres and stories that seem complex are often easier to write for some people because writing something "simpler" or more raw and understated is actually really tough because you have to feel it so deeply and execute it with such nuance.
I agree that there's no shame in admitting you can do one but not the other.
Damn, your fashion game is on point!
This video was like listening to myself. I completely agree that literary fiction can feel freeing as lit fic novels tend to be more character and mood driven rather than plot driven. I've been trying to write a fantasy for years and the plot feels sooooo important in a way that just feels so unnatural for me. I want to play with words on the page.
I think for many viewers the project was interesting because we were curious how will your fantasy turn out now, after you have acquired significant chops in literary fiction genre. If it didn't turned out the way you wanted - so be it. Even if this wasn't an artistic success, I think you've learned a lot about yourself in the process and this has a value of its own.
Of course you can discovery write fantasy. Glen Cook, one of the best fantasy authors who’s ever written, primarily writes by discovery.
After more than a decade of failed attempts to write a novel, what finally convinced me to stop outlining and try discovery writing instead was realising that I am autistic. When I heard a psychologist explain that autistic people tend to be bottom-up thinkers rather than top-down thinkers, it clicked for me that this could apply to fiction writing. It's not natural for my brain to start with the bigger picture, to sketch out an outline, and then gradually find the right details which will fulfill the original vision. I need to start with a small idea, to collect bits and pieces, and then gradually arrange those details until the bigger picture is revealed. It's not that I'm incapable of the top-down way of writing, it's just much less exciting, less intuitive, and less fruitful. Both the process and the end result are significantly better when I take a bottom-up approach. But for years, I had been convinced by so many people's well-meaning writing advice that outlining was the way to go, that being able to "pants" a good novel was something that only a handful of people had ever pulled off. Maybe outlining works best for the majority of writers, and that could be 51% of people, or maybe it's more like 75% or even 90%, but I doubt that it's for 99.999999999% like it's often made out to be. If someone is a natural outliner, discovery writing may sound like some kind of fluke, like 'magic', but as a natural 'pantser', the thought of being able to see the overall vision, even a blurry one, before you've even started to gather details... THAT is what sounds like 'magic' to me! Maybe it would be more helpful if we thought of these two processes, not as apples and oranges, but as following the same path in opposite directions. Whether you outline or discover, it's always a matter of arranging shapes and colours into a pattern, with the difference being that you either start with the idea for a beautiful pattern and then play around with various shapes and colours until the pattern feels complete, or you start with a beautiful shape or colour and then keep adding more shapes and colours until a pattern emerges.
The fantasy writers I know are inherent plotters... I wonder if there is a connection. You articulate yourself so well here. Love from a fellow discovery writer / literary fiction lover :)
I'm writing the 2nd draft of a fantasy adventure. My first draft was worse than the previous story I wrote a year ago. The word count for fantasy(epic) is 90k-100k, and I was way under the amount at 75k. So now, I've outlined more events, scenes, & locations to add. The total word count comes after it's completely done, but so far, it's going good.
I've been writing books since 2008 and have had to abandon two in that time. It's a slow, very painful realization, but ultimately the right thing to do. Plus, they then become fodder for other projects. One of my favorite short stories came out of the remnants of a failed novel.
I have been going through the same thing. I've restarted the beginning of my draft at least 5 times over the last few months. I love the concept, but there's something less exciting about it. I think I'm in a better place with it now and I like it more, but this has been the hardest one to draft.
Preface: I write primarily fantasy. One time, I wrote a novel and ended up with a similar perspective on a first draft. My solution was to make some small conceptual changes and then rewrite from scratch. Also, outlining when that's not your style is tough. I primarily discovery-write most of the books I've produced over the past 10 years. However, after over 20 years of writing novels, I'd say I only just got to the point where I'm able to effectively sense my way through the writing process and discover intricate plot like what you discussed in the book you completed this summer. Anyway, I don't have serious advice for you because you're already an accomplished writer. I really like your point about how you enjoy writing literary fiction, because even though I'm not the same way, I recognize the feeling. Writing something I don't enjoy is the surest way to make a book I don't like reading. Hang in there.
All of the luck to you for grad school, and the workload that goes with it.
Project TEBO never stood out to me from your descriptions. So you're right, there's no love lost. Considering it's the same way for you, I think the conclusion we can make is that the level of enthusiasm directly effects the execution rather than the premise.
"Outlining will not save you" is the advice I should be following. Unfortunately, the OCD part of me thrives on outlines ... I will never not outline. And yes it's very much a procrastination tactic and a vicious cycle, because the more I think about execution on the actual page, the angrier I get at myself for no reason. (This has rarely happened with plays; pretty much only with novels. As a playwright I've triumphed time and again.)
*Okay quick edit on this:* People's "having fun again" remark in reference to you stepping away from literary fiction was something so baffling I at first chose not to comment on it. But I think in its own way it's A. very backhanded on fantasy by designating it the funny farm, and B. dismissive of the completed works of the great Shaelin Bishop by implying their more focused thematic tone can be equated to a lack of access from emotions, even for the author herself. To which I say to them: calm the hell down, we haven't even read Honey Vinegar yet. If Shaelin says she enjoyed and loved them, TAKE HER WORD FOR IT, OKAY?
I have hit the wall with my book. I set out to do a thing, but knackered that thing in the very way I was protesting always happens. I'll get back to it. Soon, I hope. I just have to try to remember why I was excited about it in the first place. Reading my outline does that. I'll never understand pantsers. I also don't have to. Pantsers gonna pants. It's cool. Whatever works for them, y'know?
You should write what you enjoy! Nothing wrong with literary fiction. I agree completely with what you said. No genre should be held above another. I read pretty much everything though, including literary fiction. I'm sorry the story didn't work for you but i'm glad you found what you really enjoy writing. I'm a discovery writer to and I hate that it's been romanticized because while it's how I work and I love it I don't want to come across like I think it's better than outlining. Different people, different brains, different tastes. That's all. :) Good luck!
I also wrote my book and hated it at first, well, there was some plot problems with it and I had just put it aside. Years later I read it over again and i liked it. I think I just needed the space to get a different perspective on it. I think you need to do the same. Its probably not as bad as you think.
Gail Carson Levine writes fantasy by feel. She has an idea, writes everything down and then carves out the things that don't work until she finds the final story.
I think a very basic outline was probably a good idea for your book. Where your characters start, where they're going and a few guideposts along the way to keep them moving in the right direction. You would be under no obligation to continue along that path if you found a better route to your destination, but if you have complex interwoven plot lines, it would be difficult to keep them all moving in the same direction without something to hold them together.
A one sentence summary may be enough. Probably no more than a paragraph.
As for myself, I am a strong planner. I did my first book for NaNoWriMo last year, and had the worst problems with parts that were just vague concepts in my notes. Once I had to erase 800 words and rewrite the section because I found a better approach while writing, but the work was worth it. Again, the book doesn't necessarily follow the outline on all points, and I have to go back and insert references to important plot points I discovered in later chapters so they don't just pop up from nowhere, but I was so pleased I'm preparing more detailed notes for this year.
I resonate a lot because I also once wrote a fantasy novel I wasn´t proud of. It was a NaNoWriMo book and I shelved it, never came back to it. I´m glad I wrote it because I learned a lot, it has 60k words but it´s not good at all and that´s okay. One day I will write an amazing book and so will you.
I am about to launch into my 10th book. Every first draft is less than ideal. All you can do is put your head down and grind it out. If the concepts is NG, don't bother. Do the next book instead. Writing is hard work and the work doesn't care how you feel about it. "Do or do not, there is no try," Yoda
Happy to see you back. Moving the microphone closer will improve audio quality. Brandon Sanderson says he outlines the plot and pantses the characters. Yup, you've always come across as liking literary fiction.
I do the opposite, as in heavily outline and plan my core characters, and pants the plot
Thanks for making this video. There's a fantasy book that I want to write but I've been putting it off. Even when I say, "I want to do something a little different [from what I normally do]", it's towards the bottom of my list for potential projects because I'm afraid that I can't pull it off. I've written and published three books now (I'm nearing the end of my first draft on my fourth). All three of them (and the one I'm drafting now are different but they all have something in common in one way: they're very character focused and they're more psychological. BUNNY BOY is a psychological horror novel. THE FIFTH LINE is a psychological paranormal mystery/thriller. THE LEGEND OF GROOVY HOLLOW is a psychological middle grade sports drama...with some ghosts. If I can write a fantasy novel that is both character-driven and psychological, I think it can be good. But it still scares me.
I have a manuscript written, that I really enjoyed writing. But I get frustrated at not being a better writer. I'm frustrated at the prospect of having to rewrite every scene, and the feeling that my inexperience writing will only lead to modest improvements.
For a long time I wanted to write a big epic action fantasy story but now I realized through this video I can't write fantasy even though I love reading it. I might switch gears and try to dip my toes into a different genre I feel a bit more confident in writing. I might try to write horror comedy. I started writing horror short stories when I was a kid so I might do that but since I can't take anything seriously a part of me wants to write a super campy funny horror novel in the same vain as like Dead Alive or Cabin in the Woods. This video just helped me realize I am writing maybe in the wrong genre and I am thankful I watched this video before I gave up writing.
I've been through something similar with one of my manuscripts. I know the feeling.
I'm three drafts in and its still not really working. There's a lot of stuff I like and want to salvage but when I put it all together it's just... meh.
My soul just can't handle reworking it again. So I think it's time to be broken down for parts.
Thank you so much for sharing your journey with us. I've always worried about that. What if I finish the book and I don't like it? What then? I honestly believe that happens when we write for someone else instead of ourselves. I think you can make something very beautiful and unique out of this idea if you let go of the genre constraints and write lit fic fantasy for yourself.
Love a video where you discuss about elitism in literature in general because I’m messy 😂
I think that not liking your first draft is probably normal. Maybe if you rethought the story in the future like you said after your masters it might spark some interest in you again. Some things just aren't going to work, and they need to be changed, and that's fine. But hey, good luck with your future projects and I hope you at least enjoy your next one!
It might be normal for some people but unfortunately it's not normal for me. I talked about this in the video but maybe it got buried- the issue for me with this draft isn't that it has problems and stuff that didn't work (that always happens with a first draft and is a given) but that nothing about it excites me, which is a very different problem.
If a soccer player runs hard, kicks a goal, and it bounces off the post... where does the soccer player keep that miss? In a binder under the bed? In their heart? Maybe they just forget it, then train hard, play hard, practice, practice more, and seek coaching. Every miss is a stepping stone up to the next game winning goal.
I want to write literary fiction that’s fantasy, science fiction, horror and I am so freaking confused. My first love is fantasy, I used to look up my nose at literary fiction through watching your videos since I was 16 or 18 idk lol you helped me discover the beauty of it. But I cannot think how to blend how blend those elements. I think I want to outline and discovery write cause for me trying to do one or another hurts my brain well melts it. But then I can’t figure out how to do both either. And short stories are the fucking bane of my existence I can’t seem to write I think the novel is superior (I know it’s false ) plus I love short fiction, and 32 first drafts of poems I feel like an imposter cause I never will be a real poet (idk what that means) I want to write speculative poetry only . All my writing is confessional writing even within the fiction, poetry, short stories you make me want to believe in myself thanks for being vulnerable ❤
Congrats on the mfa your the reason why I realized I want to be a creative writing and literature studies teacher 🎉
Favorite story by I will never tell you, Elise holding a deer mouse, and you know where you body is buried ( I was talking to the Liberians about your short stories)
How to gut a fish when you are a first made me realized I could write poems, before the 32 poems I only write one poem in high school I studied and read poetry intensely outside and inside of school, but felt like I couldn’t do both cause that was greedy (the mind is so irrational lol) 😢❤
And thank you to all the other commenters
Cheers to writing literary fantasy, sci fi, and horror 🤠🥳🥳🥳👏🏿 or whatever you guys want to write 🥹🥹❤️🩹🥶
I have just completed a grimdark fantasy novel just tonight. It is in very rough shape at the moment, amd does not feel dark enough for my taste
It does not help that i am a hardcore panster, and didn't work from a solid outline, just a detailed main character profile
Don't want to be rude, but please get a better mic or sound isolation. I just feel like your videos are gonna be easier to digest with a clearer sound from what you're saying. Good to see you back!
Stick it in a drawer for a few months. Come back to it after that time has passed. Maybe your opinion on your work will be unchanged & there's no recourse other than to take it out to the woodshed & quietly put it out of your misery, or maybe you'll remember why you wrote it in the first place & know what to do to make it better.
I'm going to come back to it in a couple years after I'm done my masters degree! Unfortunately there's really no time to look at it before then haha
Genre fiction by its very definition implies restrictions, tropes, expectations. Literary fiction is basically everything that doesn’t fit a genre - so it can be whatever you want it to be. It’s not elitist - it’s just different.
can't help but feel that the stigma against literary fiction is tied to the online (and offline!) anti-intellectualism movement...
Would you consider rewriting this story as literary fiction with fantasy weaved into it? I'm currently writing a story which just so happens to be a fantasy lesbian romance as well, and I totally get how you feel. I went on a six month hiatus with it because I felt frustrated by the complicated plot I was creating and not having the tools to make it work. But taking that time was great and it helped me figure out what was missing. Maybe if you come at the story from an angle you feel more comfortable with and with more time to figure out what the plot or main character arc is missing, you can recreate the story in a way you can be happy with it.
*pops open folded chair and plops down~ NO! I see your "I hate my project" set down in defense position and I cast it into the graveyard.
EDIT: I change my mind. I'm happy you are free from a project that's become dead weight 💜
Honestly, it sounds like everyone else set you up for failure. Celebrating that you were now "free to have fun" writing fantasy would, for me, place that expectation and ensure that I NOT have fun writing it 😅
Maybe there's a way you can write that fantasy the same way you write literary fiction. Or heck, just write a literary fiction story in a fantasy setting. There's definitely an audience for that!
I feel so bad for you😢
I know I’m late to this but in case you ever pick up writing this genre again, I for one would much rather like to read fantasy that shows it’s written by a literary fiction author than something strictly genre conforming. Your perspective on fiction is a potentially transformative feature, it shouldn’t be a weight dragging on your process.
What actually motivated you to finish the draft? I'd have probably scrapped it, if I felt so strongly about it
Fair question, I meant to cover this in the video but forgot to! Basically I wanted to keep the door open to come back to edit the book down the line eventually, and I just had a feeling that if I bailed mid-draft I would never come back to finish it.
I don't know if you've answered this already but where are you getting your MFA?
Your shirt is so sick
Love your videos. Please please please please please get a better mic. And one with noise surpression preferred.
I also can't outline, I thought something was wrong with me
However, there is no need to learn outlining! Surgeons must learn surgery, engineers must learn engineering, but outlining is only one of many paths towards writing a book. It's not a necessary skill. If it's one a writer wants to learn, they can learn it, but it's far from the only way to write.
@@SourGravity That's true, but it makes writing miserable for me
@@ShaelinWrites No, there is no need to learn anything, but I have the nagging suspicion that many people who fail at outlining don't actually know how to outline well. They are using outlining the way a very amateur person uses outlining or taking things like Save the Cat way too literally. They actually don't understand the complex, evolving, multi-layered and organic nature of outlining. What I've seen of these outliners is so basic sometimes I'm like, "That's not even remotely close to what professional writers call outlining." 😭😭😭 Like if your entire outlining is a one page beat sheet or scene list, I'm crying for you. You have only the most basic understanding and it's painful to watch. lol
@@stellamae6178 I have mad respect for people who can outline as you're describing - it's honestly so impressive. One of my close friends outlines like you and her outlines are probably longer than my completed drafts haha, I'm always amazed. My comment wasn't to deride outlining but to validate OP's self-understanding that outlining doesn't work for them, since there's been a strong anti-discovery writing sentiment on authortube for years (it's improving though). Just as a lot of discovery writers have a poor understanding of how outlining works, I think the reverse is also true - sooo many times I've seen discovery writing devalued by people who think discovery writers make everything up on a whim without any intention or deeper thought, or are just amateurs who will eventually come around to outlining, which obviously isn't true. That's why when I see comments like OP's, I find it important to validate their choice to discovery write since no one should feel like there is something wrong with them just because they prefer not to write from an outline. Some people may be bad at outlining I'm sure, but for some of them the solution might not be to just outline better but not to outline at all (though I'm sure for some, learning to outline better would be the best path - it's all individual).
I've always found fantasy 10 times harder to write, and the more I try to meet my internalized expectation of what fantasy is meant to be, the worse it gets. The emotional rawness of lit fic is instantly rewarding even when everything is a hot mess, but with fantasy it takes sooo much boring engineering to get to that place. Fantasy is absolutely more constrained, from a voice and line level, to way stricter expectations of what counts as a plot 😂
the idea that literary fiction is all pulling teeth and fantasy is effortless just seems like reverse genre snobbery. And often spec fic fans maintain the distinction just as hard, when in reality some of the best spec fic comes from authors approaching fantasy in a literary way (Susanna Clarke, Angela Carter, Kazuo Ishiguro... LOTR, even).
I've had to evolve a completely different process for fantasy in which I can only describe as like a three-legged race with my outline, with a ton of breaks, fermenting, and rewriting. Your current feelings sound exactly like how I've felt about projects I did come to love... about three years later. Of course coming up with a whole world from scratch makes everything else harder! It makes complete sense to leave that aside at this time in your life. I hope this doesn't completely kill your interest in spec fic forever, though. ❤