Hello Charlie, my suggestin is to turn the TMD about 180° and run the two track main line in the back of the TMD and not routin one track in front and on on the back of the TMD. I also like the terminus idea. But if possible I would start the incline after Chadwick Parkway, so that you still have the possibility to change tracks in Parkway station for shuttle services to the central station.
Charlie, I have just started my model railway after 48 years and I'm starting from scratch . Many thanks for all the information that I have learnt from you I'm now going to start laying track , I have been planning for months now and know what I will be doing , and expecting a great deal of mistakes but I keep looking at your videos and learning. Incedently I am going the CDC route, many thanks again . Roy age 76 phew.
Just picked this video up, it’s amazing how the layout has evolved to now. I also saw you Rivet counter one and agree with everything you said. When I wrote my article for Model Rail (March 2007 issue) I said that my layout would not please the riveters but it’s mine and I’m happy. My sad bit is I hate buildings sitting on and not in the ground and roads that are totally implausible, but if you don’t have room then so be it.
Another idea is to not use it on the layout itself, just as a template and guage Maybe down the road, you'll be able to use it again with a different curve and also have the 4% grade as a guage to indicateaximum rise.
Another great video, Charlie. Thank you. The elevated terminus is a brilliant idea. 4% gradients, although practical for space reasons, might look a bit too far from prototypical, even if all your trains will go up them. Perhaps you might consider having them hidden by scenery (at least partially). It may help to disguise the steepness. Keep up the great work!
Just found video on track ballasting thought it was excellent gone on to find more. What a great man easy to listen to great tips and very practical. Will follow more of his videos. Thanks very much.
Greetings from Canada. The Woodland scenic grade system is designed for single track HO/OO. Creating a 2 level area is a viable option but ensure that you can access your lower level for operation / maintenance. I love your modeling and appreciate your videos. A 4%grade is steep.
Haven't long found this channel but don't know how I missed it - it's now one of my favourites! If I'm understanding correctly, only caution I'd have with a terminus on top of the fiddle yard is if it makes manual access to the fiddle yard difficult. Not something you may need often, but you ideally don't want to be cursing the few times that you do! Sort of related to the above, have you considered making the incline a single track branch line, maybe with a passing loop half way so you can still run two trains back to back? (That could also make for some very cool automation if you want to go down that route!) It could make a smaller terminus station above the fiddle yard more "believable" so it'd be less in the way physically, and also make it look a bit less crowded at the Chadwick parkway end. In any case, great video and keep up the good work!
Another great video. Thanks. When I added a terminal station onto a small 5ft x 6ft layout I just used 1/4” ply supported on blocks of wood of varying thickness. Worked treat. (00 gauge). Also avoids the environmental issue of using polystyrene. Jim
I have to say you are really doing a lot of remodeling. As for the double elevation, “it is your railroad” as Steve Brown says, do what you want to do. I feel it will look awesome. I am looking forward to seeing that built. Thanks for sharing. Ken
A great tour and explanation on what your thinking and doing with the layout. First and foremost it’s your layout and hobby so do what you want to. We all have different wants or needs that we want out of our layout. The station entry and exit looks great. It’s not complex but not dull. Only thing I would want is some more of a goods area to allow shunting puzzles. The fiddleyard is going to give some much needed storage and your idea of having a terminus could accommodate such a freight yard. I used the inclines from woodland scenics in the past and the 3% grade worked well with my steam locomotives pulling 4 coaches. I didn’t test any longer at the time as this was a branch line. One piece will handle only one piece line of track so if you want two lines, you will need to double the width. I’d love a terminus so would love to see it develop on your layout. All the best, Clint
Another great entertaining video Charlie (and I like the haircut!). My layout plans are going through the same machinations as yours. My layout was going to be a tail-chaser, but I didn't want a lift up section or have to crawl underneath to access the centre, so I'm changing it to a "U" shape with return circles at each end to give me up and down fast and slow lines through a "Nottingham Victoria" style main station. But the main running lines are all going to be at +100mm and I need to get down to the base level at +0.00 for the MPD and fiddle yards, so your experiments with inclines were extremely useful. Keep up the good work and the videos.
If you think it's boring Charlie then it is. You are the one who will look at it 24/7 so you need to be content with the final outcome. As for the inclines and upper level, well go for it. Brilliant idea, I am thinking of doing the same myself so please plenty of videos of your progress. I am looking forward to seeing progress. Regards Kevin
Hi another enjoyable and informative video. My loft layout is a figure of eight layout with two inclines hidden by a large hill. My locomotive plus a small rake of wagons runs from the station into a tunnel mouth going a short distance up an incline out of another tunnel mouth along the raised level above the station it started from then down the other incline into another tunnel mouth of the said hill to its lower level then through the final tunnel mouth onto the station it started from. To the purist my inclines are far to steep and my layout ideas a bit silly but all of my Lima and early Hornby models cope with it very well. I do wish UA-cam was going when I started to build my model railway because your videos plus other peoples videos have educated me tremendously. I look forward to many more.
Hi Charlie. Given I'm around the same vintage as you, time teaches you a great deal when it comes to modeling and building layouts. My biggest lesson was understanding the KISS principle, so my final layout is really very simple. One thing easily overlooked is the atmosphere you can create. That in itself can make a single line branch just as absorbing as a quadruple main line section. For me, I'd go with your original idea and not the elevated section. Focus on creating a solid atmosphere with scenery as you have with the viaduct section. Also think about how many people will be needed to fully operate the layout effectively. Oh, and don't be afraid of curved points. I have quite a few on my layout (Peco streamline large radius) and they have given no trouble at all. Anyway mate, keep up the great work and I'll leave with a final thought that my dear old dad would often say to me..."think, there must be a harder way to do it!" Yes very tongue in cheek but often so true!
Very rare to see anything like this - so thank you. It's quite hard trying to imagine how interesting to operate a layout will be. I am struggling a bit with that myself. What you are proposing seems a good idea - I hope it works.
Hi Charlie, great video, wish my layout was that advanced. One point on your train movement description: the crossover would normally be trailing, not facing, and at the other end of the Station. A DMU would enter the Station to unload then pull forward to reverse into the opposite platform to load.
Hi Charlie, that’s a neat idea adding a terminus station above the fiddle yard giving you more playability in the layout. The risers do look steep but I imagine once blended in with scenery they won’t look so acute. One thought I have with regards positioning is running the incline at the far end on that section between the two main scenic areas. Your point work currently sitting at the station will allow those local trains to arrive as they are before departing up the incline to the terminus. This would particularly benefit trains entering from right to left and then using that crossover to access the branch. Of course all this only works if you have the required length on the joining section and, if so, will the train have any additional struggle climbing that gradient when on a curve. Nothings ever simple in model railways! 😆 I look forward to your developments whatever you chose to do. Paul
Hi Charlie I used one of those inclines for a double 00 track slope and put a piece of thin light ply on top to widen it enough for a twin track then used plaster cloth and plaster to make an enbankment along the length.
Charlie, A Terminus on the other side of the room would be very nice, indeed. With the inclines in the states a lot of modellers now cover the top surface with wide masking tape then glue the track bed to it. The tape stops the track ballast falling through the gaps I can see we're all in for interesting times. Cheers, Chris Perry.
Hi Charlie, You've given so much help in the past, so I'm pleased at last to be able to share a little experience in return. I'm using the woodland scenic's risers and double track. I've got a branch line going upwards and the two main lines going downwards so that the main lines which lead to the fiddle yard are under the branch line which is my scenic area on that side - opposite the main station something like yours. I'm using 2% (with a bit of 3% starter kit). I bought double quantity for the double main line, because a) of the extra room needed on the curves for the carriages swinging out, and b) on the curves, the outer track is obviously longer (a wider radius), so that they both finish at different times - especially as the distance between the tracks had to increase for the carriages. In terms of pulling, I've got a Bachmann Director class (GCR) pulling 7 coaches, but it struggles a bit. It needs more weight in the loco - so that if I just put a little finger pressure on it it's fine. I'd be worried about doing 4%. Your test gave confidence that it might be the loco I'm using rather than the incline or the number of coaches. PS. I'm still working on the fiddle yard and found your track plan discussion in your other video very helpful. I'm planning a variation on that, adjusted for reality as I go. Thanks again for the videos - not least that it takes only 15 seconds to get into the action - unlike some channels. Brian
Great vid as always Charlie I think to be honest you have figured out how you would want it to look. My only suggestion is that the incline looks to steep, is there away if you have the space to incorporate a tunnel leading to the elevated terminus. Dave at Dean Park model railway has an elevated section leading into his TMD. That way you could hide the incline. As with the other subscriber comments could you turn the TMD section 180 degrees. Nothing wrong with the viaduct it looks great.
Hi Charlie exciting times ahead with your terminus station idea. I’ve no experience of inclines so I’m not much help. For me “Enjoyability” I say “Playability”. A great layout that isn’t fun to operate soon dulls your enthusiasm it must keep the Operator entertained. 👍 Ps I love the viaduct great feature.
Hi Charlie, oh never boring, but always a challenge. My experience of testing with 1:25 grades was there was a large variance across my engines when comparing flat to 1:25 haulage performance, so recommend you check across your fleet if going so steep that all engines perform to expectations. I have settled on 1:50 nominal, worst case 1:40 to minimise haulage losses and make grades look (to my taste) reasonable. Personally I think 1:25 looks too steep. I had to drop my final height to achieve my target grade, perhaps you might consider to drop your upper level height? I am still at layout planning stage, using the CAD which is great for assessing grades, track plans and what layouts look like with scenery and buildings. As always it's a compromise! Have much enjoyed your channel, experiences and advice etc, many thanks. Stephen. (Charlie - have moved from an unintended reply to where it should have been as a comment - good luck with your decision making process too!!)
Charlie, at present I don't have a layout. Just sections waiting for space to become available. I did have a nice operating layout. I used by single track 4 percent grades for the first 3 switchbacks and the last two switchbacks I used double track 2 percent. I modeled in HO scale. My trains were all DC . Using 2 locomotives on head end followed by 10 or 12 40 ft open coal hoppers. My base mainline was 52 inches from the floor. My branch Line to the coalpit started at 52 inches then rose another 3 feet. I worked out all the elevations myself until I was happy with the operations. I used a modified cookie cutter idea for rise in elevations. I referred to Jim Mc Cleahands book. Modeling Coal Roads. Unsure of the publisher. The risers we're all wood blocks cut to width then screwed to risers cut to length. Following Jim's table of inclines per gradent. Good luck in your pursuits. You have right idea.
I am using the 4% incline on the HOn30 portion of my layout. Because it is narrow gauge I will not be running long trains, so I can't help you with your engine question. I did cut the riser width to help with the very small radius turns and space requirements. I do love your idea to add some interest to the layout. Looking GREAT!!
Great idea, if you want to extend it, there is always the option of making it go around the whole room (maybe just one track) with removeable segments - or a hole thru the wall to another room but its definitely not boring this way!
Hey Charlie. Great video. Those inclines are single track, to sell more. Surely the idea has been put out there, but get a hot foam cutter and use these as template. Great video. Look forward seeing the terminus under construction
Hi Charlie.You could use a pair of risers side by side,or glue some thin customwood to the risers to support double track. the grade is very steep. For mains I use 2.5%,single track branches 3.5%,rack sections up to 7.5%. Long trains only on 2.5% or less,some double or triple heading. Can I suggest angling track to walls where possible or using gentle S curves ,creates more illusion of distance,,. as well as leaving spaces for scenery or structures. Also in front of backscenes use building "flats",then low relief.then 3-D, and some of a smaller scale in places further back.Hope this helps.
I do agree with you, after doing that wonderful 3D area around the viaduct, the station does look a little 2 dimensional. It is a shame that the platforms are long and straight. I think a station in front of the slope would benefit from a slight S curve especially if there any lines by-passing the station. I do wonder if 4% is a little steep as a visual effect and whether double track is a good idea and that a small terminus like Cheltenham St James or Bath Green Park could then feed into single track up and down the slope with points doubling the track at the bottom connecting to the RH end of the station. It would certainly make it more interesting operating at two different levels. You do like making trouble for yourself but it is my favourite channel and I can't wait for your next video, whatever you choose to do.
Charlie, scary but true i thought you should do what you said even before i finished watching the full update go high and make central a focal point as for the risers hot knife in half then card on top ! love the plan go for it ! John from Chichester .
Hi Charlie, Just want to say that your work is fantastic, I've been following your channel for some time now and really been enjoying your progress, I would agree with previous comments and rotating the TMD, I think the incline and Chadwick central is a great idea, I'm currently rethinking my own layout and this is exactly what I was thinking but wasn't sure about the incline sets but now I've seen yours it's a green light for me. Ps I would like to become a patron of yours but funds for my own layout are tight so contributing to someone else's isn't something I can do right now but I really do appreciate your layout updates and all your UA-cam content. Kind regards Sam
An incline was exactly what I thought would really good, prior to you saying so; especially from your own perspective in that room as it will bring the trains further up to your eye level, where the base board is already fairly high. So often one looks down at the layout. Would look amazing :)
Charlie, I've found in my journey with model railroading, when my skills improve with a project I am wont to go back and apply those skills to the old stuff I did before. You are finding the same thing. I really do feel your viaduct scene is a huge step up for you; it is exceptionally well done, and it provides a ton of visual interest for your viewers/visitors. While building that scene, you also learned that the scene improves if your track (and structures, for that matter) is not parallel to the edge of your boards. Looking at all of your old trackage, it seems all of that breaks that rule. You might want to rethink your overall plan, with the idea of continuing to step up your game with each new area you model. You're a great modeler, and you are very thoughtful in how you proceed with new things. You're at a crossroads with your scenery skills - find a way to make the rest of your railroad empire equal or exceed what you've done with the viaduct scene.
Charlie, I’d keep your viaduct and start your risers off (curved?) interchange points either side of that for a longer upper run. That might allow a (less steep?) climb up a cutting through your planned hill to the right of the viaduct. Presumably the fiddle-yards would branch from the viaduct via a tunnel to the rear of the mountain. Parkway might need a slight rethink to accomodate, or start that riser on the left end of the station, over ‘the gap’ (hidden?). A strategically placed road bridge or two might add interest.
Hi Charlie. I had a 4% gradient using the same materials as you have purchased for my branch line running off the main layout on an approx 40" radius. Even an 0-6-0 tank (no traction tyres) with 2 suburban coaches would struggle. If you tried something like a Pacific then anything more than 5 coaches needed banking. More to do with the radius I suspect, but I would personally try it temporarily in place before you start gluing and screwing. Will be continuing to watch with interest 👍
Hi Charlie, Thanks for all your videos, I really appreciate the time and effort you go to, I've picked up some great tips. On the Inclines here's my tuppance for what its worth - I've just laid two sets of double track 4% ones.... - yes it does look a bit steep to me but that's the available space I have so Rule 1 applies. I have tight curves ( R2 and R3) on my inclines and I found that once I put Powerbase under the Up lines I had no issues with a steam loco that previously had trouble bringing up itself and a coach, now it's as if there is no incline at all with the max length of train behind it - ergo, If i ever lay an incline again ( whether i have a curve on it or not) I will put in the powerbase anyway - that way if I get a loco that doesnt like the incline I can add the magnets to help it. If no locos need it, the powerbase is not that expensive to have put it in as an insurance policy. On the one or two parallel foam inclines question - next time I will put just one foam incline in and put a wide base on it - ply or similar with extra supports at the edges. With curves on the inclines, one of the foam inclines ends up being shorter and so is at a different height at various points etc. etc. With a bit of judicious stretching and compressing I think the differences in height I have now are acceptable to me. Also - two foam risers next to each other do seem to me to be a bit wide and I did consider thinning them but in the end I decided to leave them as is in order to keep my current construction momentum going. As a long term fan of C.J. Freezer type plans - a high level terminus on a layout with a lower level loop - yup go for it i like the idea of rotating the TMD 180 degrees as others have suggested. Cheerio. Ned.
Great idea for the terminus station and how to maximise impact with another level. My layout is essentially 2 levels where the inclines are mostly hidden in tunnels or behind back-scenes. Seeing the incline on your layout in full view against the wall with the shelf, baseboard and back-scene horizontals in near proximity does tend to emphasis the steepness of the gradient. A method I take is to use the entire length available between each level. For example if the length from the starting point (lower level by platform) to the end point (upper level above fiddle yard before entering terminus) is 12' and the height difference was 6", then I would evenly spread the incline over this distance. I suspect this would give you a far more realistic incline. Of course this might mean the risers are redundant as I would make a series of wooden supports, say every 6" with each height calculated by the total number of supports to get an even gradient. On the topic of the track-bed width (if you use the risers), I would just use the one set and lay some thin MDF (3mm) over the top at the track-bed width required. Gosh, that a lot for my very first comment on a UA-cam channel.
I love your approach Charlie, it makes me feel better about keep changing my own mind. Having said that I am 009 so no such thing as double track and 4%.. not an issue :-)
Very interesting. Keeping in mind a good few branch type lines will run with inclines randomly spread across the route, guessing they were always designed for slower moving trains, makes sense to add an incline rather than digging out further just to keep the line as flat as possible. My layout is full of inclines ranging in various lengths and nothing struggles on any of them. All were fully tested with 12 coaches. I like the idea of inclines as it adds a great dimension to a flat layout.
I was always told put the track down before you do anything else and run the track, you will soon realize if you are going to get bored. I know this theory works as I did this when I first started. Interesting video.
1. Two single risers for double track, or if you go edge to edge you may have triple track. 2. Have a period of regular passenger and parcel trains (parcel trains on the back-most track for freight) and then dedicate a special train to be your Chadwick Central Express with an opening charter season, and then start regular service. 3. Perhaps include a dedicated point to point transit/tram (passengers only) from one end to the other. These ideas may be a bit out of order, but maybe it would further excite your purpose for your building upgrade (literally and figuratively) new line. Cheers! John
Yep. Double track and Central is the way to go. Incline does look a little steep, but with the right scenery you will get away with it. (You should see mine!) I did the same thing with the Woodland packaging 😂😂😂😂😂
Hi Charlie, thoroughly enjoyed this video, thank you. Inclines are a nice interesting feature, with a lot of potential, but I agree 1:25 is a bit severe. I’ve incorporated a single track incline on my layout to feed a branch terminus & opted for 1:40 min, with minimum 24”rad curves (space limitation). Built of hard board & I used a string line to sight the gradient profile. This was useful as I discovered areas where I could ease the gradient. DCC concepts magnetic system works excellently (as mentioned elsewhere). An essential for this incline with steam locos. My old Woolworth is content with 3- 4 coaches & in the real world there would be load restrictions for various classes of locos, anyway. Viaduct scene looking great & really enhances your layout. Have you thought about a parcels depot to busy up the foreground area of the station area? Hope this helps. You have encouraged a lot of useful ideas too, so thank you for that.
I've used the Woodland Scenic inclines and they work really well. One word of caution, be careful when using the foam. You will need to think about how the incline starts and how the foam will transition at the base of the incline. You need to maintain the gentle start to the gradient. Any lumps or bumps will cause issues.
G’day Charlie, I’ve been using the Woodland Scenics incline on my layout for a couple of years now. I used matte board (the stuff used for mounting photos) because I had stacks about. After gluing the incline in place I cut the board large for two tracks and glued it to the incline. It has been working a treat sine I installed it. Hope that this helps.
Re the width of the poly incline - either glue some 5mm polystyrene on top of the risers to create the required width roadbed and have an overhang which could be supported (if necessary) with scraps OR slice the risers in half lengthwise and glue the risers to the centre of the required width roadbed ( again 5mm poly), thus giving support under the sleepers/rail. Both options might need fettling to get the height right.
Hi Charlie, Glenn from Australia here. Another great video, brilliant to have a tour of the layout, cheers. Like the idea of the risers and second station above fiddle yard. Will add more operational options. Roundy roundy and fiddle yard, to terminus, the best of both worlds. Speaking of operations, have you considered the possibility of double crossover in your existing station ala Exeter Central for making up and splitting pass. trains? Also wanted to say a friend here has used the same 4% risers, only single track though. He had a few issues, diesels were generally ok but steamers did struggle, maybe not a problem for you. He overcame this by using the DCC magnet system, not sure what its called? The other thing to make sure of is that all couplers are level and reliable as he used to have quite a few breakaways on the transitions up and down. I am certain you will be on top of this though. Thanks again, is good to hear your thoughts and conundrums re. planning
I like the idea of introducing relief into the landscape, I have tried to do that with my own layouts. It does not necessarily have to be the track that changes elevation the landscape can change around it as you did with the viaduct
Hi Charlie, great video as usual. I would agree with a number of others in making the incline as long as possible and thereby as shallow as possible. Also having a single di-directional line on the branch would give more operational interest. I'm sure what ever you decide it will be interesting to see it develop.
Evening Charlie ...Just giving some thought on your layout and for any suggestions that you may take on board. As we all come to a cross roads at times !!! Hence more minds and suggestions are better than one !!!! 1/:---- Turn slightly your Terminus on the right side of you bridge.Have your fiddle yard underneath,gaining some more room in the process for any improvements later on.Plus gaining a 1-4% gradient, this will do the trick nicely !!! DDC Concepts", do a nice system of magnets.on inclines only. This will make your rolling stock run nicely and smooth !!! 2/:---- As a suggestion only. On a 1st rad/curve. One can used it for a cattle market,horse loading bay at the location of the old engine shed,as a shuttle between Parkway and Central. Which will be eye catching in its own right alone. The only engine's one can use are in steam are 0-3-2 or 2-3-0, or 4-4-0,depending upon what ERA your doing at present ??? Anything larger than this then problems may occur. I fit small fishing lead weights to over come this problem or for any derailments. It could be a "Heritage Line" only. Great video once again Charlie... At the end of the day its your layout.To decide which channel you may wish to go down... Carol
A issue that you may like to consider before the gradient is installed is the overhead clearance between the fiddle yard and the upper station area. I model in N scale and have a triple shelf layout. I have only left 200mm or 8 inches between the middle and lower shelf. I find this no where enough vertical clearance. I use the lower shelf as a staging yard (American Fiddle yard) so understand the difficulties of rerailing and doing other such chores. A clearance of at least 300mm or 1 foot would be the minimum vertical distance I would require nowadays. Neil W
I do enjoy the look of Chadwick Parkway as it stands; a simple station is often quite appealing. Personally, I would remove Chadwick TMD and put the large station there instead, as Chadwick TMD would probably be the part of the layout I'm least fond of. Loving the videos, though! Keep up the good work!
Your demonstration of how NOT to open the riser box made me almost snort my tea out of my nose; I'd do exactly the same thing! Followed and bell dinged and I look forward to seeing this progress. As others have said you could use the risers as a form to cut your own from thicker material, or place a wider top on it as well? I love the look of the layout and think the raised terminus is a really good idea also :) cheers!
Very neat that you tested for traction on the incline. Is your incline going to include a curve and how much will that affect the drag of wheels on rail? I see David Bookler has already mentioned the possible use of thin board to perhaps overhang a single set of polystyrene risers to give room for a double track. I know I did not allow enough width to accommodate coach overhang on my curve! During the first part of your video when you first mention the fiddle yard I wondered if exposing the yard as as storage yard in use would save the need for perhaps cameras top see what is actually happening. Then when your terminaus station was mooted, I wondered if a "high level station" as the terminus could still expose some of the fiddle yard to save reaching underneath in cases of emergency?
Hi Charlie. Great video as usual. I made two inclines on my layout, one up one down with another layer underneath, so I can have trains leaving my main station and disappearing underneath the layout around another loop until I want to bring them up again. My inclines are made of 12mm ply supported underneath with baton. As you’ve already invested in the Woodland Scenics incline why not have a piece of something like 4mm ply cut to a width to accept two tracks stuck on top of the foam. Good luck with whatever you decide.
Charlie, you absolute mad lad! I’m usually very supportive of what you do, because you do such a great job! I’d normally say that this is a bad idea at this stage, but if Charlie Bishop is on the case, I’m sure it will actually be excellent.
Charlie I have those risers on my layout and I used plain brown hard board cut to into strips wide enough for 2 tracks and a little extra each side, you can lay the hard board rough side down and it will glue to the risers, the hard board is cheap and easy to cut and you can lay track on the smooth side.
Hi Charlie looks great the incline it's what you like not others mine has a single incline the fiddle yard will be a great idea it doesn't look to steep to me looks great keep up the great work cheers Paul
I watched with interest as i have a similar idea for mine ; which at the moment is just a shuttle service. but i am also considering a bigger turn round out into the garden; oh the joys of planning. good luck with yours.
Charlie I model in N and use the Woodland Scenics inclines on double track. Certainly it isn't suited for OO double track. My concern is the incline. 4% is very steep. I tried that during construction last year and have just ripped it up. Not only do locos have problems with a long load, but it doesn't look great. I went back to 2% - and expanded the layout to accommodate my folded dog-bone.
I would use the 3 % grade for the rise 4 % may cause a problem when the track levels out. Also I would not run all the tracks parallel to the edge of the table. If you just use a simple angle and slightly curve it will look more organic and not laid out. I used just over 2.5 % grade on my n scale and it looks prototypical. Anyway nice video.
@@ChadwickModelRailway hello, have you considered moving the incline anti clockwise a bit on to the curve? Although, I am not sure if the trains will run better on a straight incline.
I’m building my first OO gauge DCC layout and use the 4% woodland scenic inclines. A great product but you would need two sets side by side to ‘safely’ carry your double track lines to Chadwick Central. An elevated station would be a great idea to ‘hide’ the fiddle yard, as long as you build in easy access for ageing hands and eyesight!! (from personal experience) You could also run a line, ‘elevated’, through Chadwick Central and connect back down an incline with your beautiful new viaduct. Thanks for the great video production and interesting topics. The most important thing though is, would YOU enjoy that layout?
Hi Charlie. You mentioned about the incline looking too steep. A good idea to hide this could be to continue the arched retaining walls on the outside, along and down 4% with the the track to the bottom of the incline. That way you still see any trains running up but from behind a small wall. Failing that, a tunnel would hide it very well indeed. Hope this helps ☺
Hello Charlie! Great video as ever. Like many, I think the gradient looks a bit steep, so maybe the next one down and take round the corner a little? I'm still at the thinking stage of my layout...😅 Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. Central sounds like a great feature, and one mentioned the idea of a parcels yard which seems good. Best of success!!
Hi Charlie, I would sugest that on the polystyrene inclines you mount a board to give you a double track width and fill the space either side of the risers with landscaping or retaining walls. Keep up the great work, I get plenty of useful ideas from your videos and they transfer easily to n gauge which is what I work in.
Hi charlie. Great video as always. I have an incline on my sons track and it uses the hornby bridge supports. Using them was easy but I feel going off hornby's suggestion of having the supports every 30 sleepers is a bit steep and my steamies (thomas the tank and co.) Struggle with multiple wagons/coaches. Was thinking of other ideas and you've given me one! Thanks. Your layout I think will work as you describe and cant wait to see how it unfolds... Paul B
Hi Charlie - had a double track incline on my layout and definitely had to use two incline kits side by side - gets interesting around curves as the outside one reaches the height before the inside one. Peter
Hello Charlie, If you have the space for a shallower incline then I would use one as the aesthetics would be improved. As mentioned elsewhere in these comments pack out the incline with expanded polystyrene to make it thick enough to take a double track and use a hot wire cutter to match it to the slope of the incline. Having a terminus over your fiddle yard is a great idea and gives you scope for more scenic imaginations. In what would have been a dead space. The two dead straight platforms, parallel to the edge of the base board could be offset on a slight diagonal or even curved to create more interest. Just my two penny worth to give you more work. I enjoy your videos and the contribution you make to our pass time.
Have you ever thought about a moduler system? Here in America we have the NMRA modules. We can build a home layout, and then take it to a club or exhibition and join up with other modules to make a large layout.
The risers are single track for 00/HO. They are designed to fit the trackbed with a little bit of play either side for blending into scenery with plaster cloth. Woodland scenic have some great videos on their site showing how to use their subterrain system. Worth a watch if you haven't already seen them.
Love your videos and layout. Your viaduct is fabulous! On the subject of your video - taking into consideration other's comments; think of adding interesting scenes rather than just adding track to make your layout more interesting or exciting as you say. Whatever you do I'm sure it will be great.
Hi Charlie, Good idea idea about the upper terminus, i would run the gradient in front of the station, certainly more 3 dimensional and means you keep the freight loop, looks a bit different and also gives you a reason to cross the mainlines with a bridge etc. good luck. Graham.
Hi, I think is a bit steep. But, if you like it, there's no problem. 😉 What I would do, is I would use both of them, one in front of Park station and one behind, just as you show, and put a viaduct in an angle over the traks of the station.This way, you will have both lines for "Central" in the correct position. Maybe is too much for a medium sized layout, I don't know how will fit.
Good video Charlie. I admire your honesty! I like the incline as it gives another dimension to the layout. My only thought is with regard to the station area in front of it; are you going to have some branch lines and/or sidings? otherwise there is not much other than straight track to look at.
I'm facing similar issues on my layout re the incline double width issue. In an attempt to aviod doubling costs on a parallel incline, I'm considering using 3mm ply cut to railwidth needed and placing that onto the single incline structure. As always the issue of cost verses time is a factor. I'm now going to wait and watch you! 😜
Hi Charlie Once again good video. It’s nice too see that I’m not the only one who second guesses layout choices sometime. You asked for comments so.. in my opinion a 4% grade may be visually a little extreme even though operationally it could work. My immediate thought was , perhaps you could add some more goods workings in to make things more interesting. Just my opinion. Anyway keep up the good work, I enjoy your videos. Cheers from Canada Bob
A small terminus to give you some operational variety sounds just perfect. Not sure if I heard you right, is the terminus going above the fiddle yard? Fine if fiddle yard is totally and robustly automated, but a pain getting access if you've only got a few inches vertically. I speak from painful experience having just made the mistake of building an inaccessible fiddle yard, and now planning major surgery.
Hi Charlie Fun times making decisions!!! You could always widen the inclines by adding 4 - 6 mm ply strips on top which can allow you to fit two tracks at standard widths as you up and around the curves. Can you could just lengthen the incline to reduce the climb angle? Cheers Andrew
Hi Charlie, With your incline, from bitter experience with a 3% incline, I would strongly advise to only incline on a straight run and do not incline curves, the load on the loco increases significantly. If you want to increase the width of the incline to accept a double track you could lay a 3 mm thick ply wood top of course this may increase the noise level slightly. Every good series of videos and the presentation comes over to me very well. We seem to talk the same sort of language. Keep it up gards Nigel Collins
Hi Nigel, thanks for the info. On the incline, I'm only thinking of DMUs and three coach diesel hauled trains. I had planned some curve on the incline but very little. I guess I'll have to keep my fingered crossed on this one. Were you attempting to run longer trains?
Charlie I had a double incline on my previous layout. Had to lay two sets of the risers side by side. To be honest it didn't look too wide once I'd done the scenery around it.
With regards your woodland scenic risers / incline, in order to get a double track you could glue some plasticard or something similar onto the top of the risers which would give you the required width and if necessary you could glue some supports onto the side of the incline to provide support for the plasticard. Another interesting video and with an important lesson which is, always remember to do your arithmetic off camera.
Scenic scetion above the fiddle will always be a bonus. would suggest using the old engine shed area as a goods yard area. if you think the inclinenis too steep can always reduce the gradient and have it come around on he far corner. adding interest
I'm currently doing the sameish to my layout but mine will be rising and diving down and from the fiddle yard. I'm also opting for the 4% due to space constraints. Thank you for your videos they are a constant help to me.
Hi Charlie, to my eye the incline looks a bit too steep, however I do think it’s a great idea to take the layout up to another level. Stirling work and vid my friend. Excellent.
Charlie Hi, have been watching your videos for a while, enjoy them a lot. I agree with Steve, just fix a bit of flexible thin ply or MDf on top, to the width you want, then put your track bed on. As far as trying to plan a new layout to fit an old one, I am not in favour of this in general. I find I have to make too many compromises. Planning the whole thing from scratch , I find gives me more flexibility. Doug.
This depends on if you want a tail chaser or a point to point layout at our club here in Rangiora we have a Ho scale American layout that runs DCC through a wifi unit to our cell phones using JMRI and engine shed and an OO scale that is a tail chaser and an N scale layout that is also a tail chaser members have a choice whether they want to operate on each layout
Hello Charlie,
my suggestin is to turn the TMD about 180° and run the two track main line in the back of the TMD and not routin one track in front and on on the back of the TMD. I also like the terminus idea. But if possible I would start the incline after Chadwick Parkway, so that you still have the possibility to change tracks in Parkway station for shuttle services to the central station.
The turning of the TMD boards is brilliant. God bless UA-cam.
Charlie, I have just started my model railway after 48 years and I'm starting from scratch . Many thanks for all the information that I have learnt from you I'm now going to start laying track , I have been planning for months now and know what I will be doing , and expecting a great deal of mistakes but I keep looking at your videos and learning. Incedently I am going the CDC route, many thanks again . Roy age 76 phew.
That’s great news, Roy, and I wish you well with your new project. Regards, Charlie.
Just picked this video up, it’s amazing how the layout has evolved to now. I also saw you Rivet counter one and agree with everything you said. When I wrote my article for Model Rail (March 2007 issue) I said that my layout would not please the riveters but it’s mine and I’m happy. My sad bit is I hate buildings sitting on and not in the ground and roads that are totally implausible, but if you don’t have room then so be it.
I’m so pleased that you enjoy the channel Paul, and you’re so right in our buildings and roads are placed. Regards, Charlie.
Man, I would love to one day have anywhere near the quality of your "boring" layout!!!
Thanks Ali, I feel humbled.
You can use the risers to give sufficient support for a thin board (e.g. balsa wood) on which you can place your double track.
Good point David
Another idea is to not use it on the layout itself, just as a template and guage Maybe down the road, you'll be able to use it again with a different curve and also have the 4% grade as a guage to indicateaximum rise.
Another great video, Charlie. Thank you. The elevated terminus is a brilliant idea. 4% gradients, although practical for space reasons, might look a bit too far from prototypical, even if all your trains will go up them. Perhaps you might consider having them hidden by scenery (at least partially). It may help to disguise the steepness. Keep up the great work!
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it and many thanks for your points.
Just found video on track ballasting thought it was excellent gone on to find more. What a great man easy to listen to great tips and very practical. Will follow more of his videos. Thanks very much.
Thanks Chris, it’s great to have you onboard
Greetings from Canada. The Woodland scenic grade system is designed for single track HO/OO. Creating a 2 level area is a viable option but ensure that you can access your lower level for operation / maintenance. I love your modeling and appreciate your videos. A 4%grade is steep.
I’m so pleased that you enjoy the videos. I’m going to try 3% and see how that looks.
Haven't long found this channel but don't know how I missed it - it's now one of my favourites!
If I'm understanding correctly, only caution I'd have with a terminus on top of the fiddle yard is if it makes manual access to the fiddle yard difficult. Not something you may need often, but you ideally don't want to be cursing the few times that you do!
Sort of related to the above, have you considered making the incline a single track branch line, maybe with a passing loop half way so you can still run two trains back to back? (That could also make for some very cool automation if you want to go down that route!) It could make a smaller terminus station above the fiddle yard more "believable" so it'd be less in the way physically, and also make it look a bit less crowded at the Chadwick parkway end.
In any case, great video and keep up the good work!
And hopefully you’ve subscribed too Berry.
Of course!
Another great video. Thanks. When I added a terminal station onto a small 5ft x 6ft layout I just used 1/4” ply supported on blocks of wood of varying thickness. Worked treat. (00 gauge). Also avoids the environmental issue of using polystyrene.
Jim
Sound advice, thanks Jim.
I have to say you are really doing a lot of remodeling. As for the double elevation, “it is your railroad” as Steve Brown says, do what you want to do. I feel it will look awesome. I am looking forward to seeing that built. Thanks for sharing. Ken
Thanks Ken, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it
Hi Charlie, great in-depth walk round of your excellent slowly progressing layout. I love your station length for proper length rakes. 👍Thumb Up 👍
Thanks Jamie, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
A great tour and explanation on what your thinking and doing with the layout. First and foremost it’s your layout and hobby so do what you want to. We all have different wants or needs that we want out of our layout. The station entry and exit looks great. It’s not complex but not dull. Only thing I would want is some more of a goods area to allow shunting puzzles. The fiddleyard is going to give some much needed storage and your idea of having a terminus could accommodate such a freight yard. I used the inclines from woodland scenics in the past and the 3% grade worked well with my steam locomotives pulling 4 coaches. I didn’t test any longer at the time as this was a branch line. One piece will handle only one piece line of track so if you want two lines, you will need to double the width. I’d love a terminus so would love to see it develop on your layout. All the best, Clint
Clint, I’m so grateful for such constructive input.
Another great entertaining video Charlie (and I like the haircut!). My layout plans are going through the same machinations as yours. My layout was going to be a tail-chaser, but I didn't want a lift up section or have to crawl underneath to access the centre, so I'm changing it to a "U" shape with return circles at each end to give me up and down fast and slow lines through a "Nottingham Victoria" style main station. But the main running lines are all going to be at +100mm and I need to get down to the base level at +0.00 for the MPD and fiddle yards, so your experiments with inclines were extremely useful. Keep up the good work and the videos.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it and found it useful Geoff.
Your layout is amazing Charlie and I am quite sure that whatever you decide to do will be superb, thank you for the inspiration that you give.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Philip.
If you think it's boring Charlie then it is. You are the one who will look at it 24/7 so you need to be content with the final outcome. As for the inclines and upper level, well go for it. Brilliant idea, I am thinking of doing the same myself so please plenty of videos of your progress. I am looking forward to seeing progress. Regards Kevin
Thanks Kevin, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
My mantra is "Build your own train garden." Yours is yours and I love it.
Thanks Karts, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
Hi another enjoyable and informative video. My loft layout is a figure of eight layout with two inclines hidden by a large hill. My locomotive plus a small rake of wagons runs from the station into a tunnel mouth going a short distance up an incline out of another tunnel mouth along the raised level above the station it started from then down the other incline into another tunnel mouth of the said hill to its lower level then through the final tunnel mouth onto the station it started from. To the purist my inclines are far to steep and my layout ideas a bit silly but all of my Lima and early Hornby models cope with it very well. I do wish UA-cam was going when I started to build my model railway because your videos plus other peoples videos have educated me tremendously. I look forward to many more.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Michael,
Hi Charlie. Given I'm around the same vintage as you, time teaches you a great deal when it comes to modeling and building layouts. My biggest lesson was understanding the KISS principle, so my final layout is really very simple. One thing easily overlooked is the atmosphere you can create. That in itself can make a single line branch just as absorbing as a quadruple main line section. For me, I'd go with your original idea and not the elevated section. Focus on creating a solid atmosphere with scenery as you have with the viaduct section. Also think about how many people will be needed to fully operate the layout effectively. Oh, and don't be afraid of curved points. I have quite a few on my layout (Peco streamline large radius) and they have given no trouble at all. Anyway mate, keep up the great work and I'll leave with a final thought that my dear old dad would often say to me..."think, there must be a harder way to do it!" Yes very tongue in cheek but often so true!
Sound advice, cheers mate.
Very rare to see anything like this - so thank you. It's quite hard trying to imagine how interesting to operate a layout will be. I am struggling a bit with that myself. What you are proposing seems a good idea - I hope it works.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it
Hey ho, we live and learn. Truer words were never spoken.
Too true Daniel.
Hi Charlie, great video, wish my layout was that advanced.
One point on your train movement description: the crossover would normally be trailing, not facing, and at the other end of the Station.
A DMU would enter the Station to unload then pull forward to reverse into the opposite platform to load.
Sound advice, thanks PG.
Hi Charlie, that’s a neat idea adding a terminus station above the fiddle yard giving you more playability in the layout. The risers do look steep but I imagine once blended in with scenery they won’t look so acute. One thought I have with regards positioning is running the incline at the far end on that section between the two main scenic areas. Your point work currently sitting at the station will allow those local trains to arrive as they are before departing up the incline to the terminus. This would particularly benefit trains entering from right to left and then using that crossover to access the branch. Of course all this only works if you have the required length on the joining section and, if so, will the train have any additional struggle climbing that gradient when on a curve. Nothings ever simple in model railways! 😆 I look forward to your developments whatever you chose to do. Paul
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Paul, still scratching my head!
Hi Charlie I used one of those inclines for a double 00 track slope and put a piece of thin light ply on top to widen it enough for a twin track then used plaster cloth and plaster to make an enbankment along the length.
Sound advice, cheers mate.
One of my favourite channels - Keep them coming, Charlie.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed them Richard.
Charlie, A Terminus on the other side of the room would be very nice, indeed. With the inclines in the states a lot of modellers now cover the top surface with wide masking tape then glue the track bed to it. The tape stops the track ballast falling through the gaps I can see we're all in for interesting times. Cheers, Chris Perry.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Chris.
Hi Charlie, You've given so much help in the past, so I'm pleased at last to be able to share a little experience in return. I'm using the woodland scenic's risers and double track. I've got a branch line going upwards and the two main lines going downwards so that the main lines which lead to the fiddle yard are under the branch line which is my scenic area on that side - opposite the main station something like yours. I'm using 2% (with a bit of 3% starter kit). I bought double quantity for the double main line, because a) of the extra room needed on the curves for the carriages swinging out, and b) on the curves, the outer track is obviously longer (a wider radius), so that they both finish at different times - especially as the distance between the tracks had to increase for the carriages. In terms of pulling, I've got a Bachmann Director class (GCR) pulling 7 coaches, but it struggles a bit. It needs more weight in the loco - so that if I just put a little finger pressure on it it's fine. I'd be worried about doing 4%. Your test gave confidence that it might be the loco I'm using rather than the incline or the number of coaches. PS. I'm still working on the fiddle yard and found your track plan discussion in your other video very helpful. I'm planning a variation on that, adjusted for reality as I go. Thanks again for the videos - not least that it takes only 15 seconds to get into the action - unlike some channels. Brian
Hi Brian, what a terrific contribution.
I am so grateful. Stay tuned I’m already making up my mind!
Great vid as always Charlie I think to be honest you have figured out how you would want it to look. My only suggestion is that the incline looks to steep, is there away if you have the space to incorporate a tunnel leading to the elevated terminus. Dave at Dean Park model railway has an elevated section leading into his TMD. That way you could hide the incline. As with the other subscriber comments could you turn the TMD section 180 degrees. Nothing wrong with the viaduct it looks great.
Sound advice, thanks Mark and I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
Hi Charlie exciting times ahead with your terminus station idea. I’ve no experience of inclines so I’m not much help. For me “Enjoyability” I say “Playability”. A great layout that isn’t fun to operate soon dulls your enthusiasm it must keep the Operator entertained. 👍 Ps I love the viaduct great feature.
Thanks Colin, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
Hi Charlie, oh never boring, but always a challenge. My experience of testing with 1:25 grades was there was a large variance across my engines when comparing flat to 1:25 haulage performance, so recommend you check across your fleet if going so steep that all engines perform to expectations. I have settled on 1:50 nominal, worst case 1:40 to minimise haulage losses and make grades look (to my taste) reasonable. Personally I think 1:25 looks too steep. I had to drop my final height to achieve my target grade, perhaps you might consider to drop your upper level height? I am still at layout planning stage, using the CAD which is great for assessing grades, track plans and what layouts look like with scenery and buildings. As always it's a compromise! Have much enjoyed your channel, experiences and advice etc, many thanks. Stephen. (Charlie - have moved from an unintended reply to where it should have been as a comment - good luck with your decision making process too!!)
Sound advice, thanks Stephen.
Charlie, at present I don't have a layout. Just sections waiting for space to become available. I did have a nice operating layout. I used by single track 4 percent grades for the first 3 switchbacks and the last two switchbacks I used double track 2 percent. I modeled in HO scale. My trains were all DC . Using 2 locomotives on head end followed by 10 or 12 40 ft open coal hoppers. My base mainline was 52 inches from the floor. My branch Line to the coalpit started at 52 inches then rose another 3 feet. I worked out all the elevations myself until I was happy with the operations. I used a modified cookie cutter idea for rise in elevations. I referred to Jim Mc Cleahands book. Modeling Coal Roads. Unsure of the publisher. The risers we're all wood blocks cut to width then screwed to risers cut to length. Following Jim's table of inclines per gradent.
Good luck in your pursuits.
You have right idea.
Thanks James, valuable advice
I am using the 4% incline on the HOn30 portion of my layout. Because it is narrow gauge I will not be running long trains, so I can't help you with your engine question. I did cut the riser width to help with the very small radius turns and space requirements. I do love your idea to add some interest to the layout. Looking GREAT!!
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Larry
Great idea, if you want to extend it, there is always the option of making it go around the whole room (maybe just one track) with removeable segments - or a hole thru the wall to another room
but its definitely not boring this way!
Thanks very much for your advice L.
like the idea Charlie , fairly different to what you had ,it wont have a lot to see but will be a great working platform.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it John.
Hey Charlie. Great video. Those inclines are single track, to sell more. Surely the idea has been put out there, but get a hot foam cutter and use these as template.
Great video. Look forward seeing the terminus under construction
Thanks, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it
Hi Charlie.You could use a pair of risers side by side,or glue some thin customwood to the risers to support double track. the grade is very steep. For mains I use 2.5%,single track branches 3.5%,rack sections up to 7.5%. Long trains only on 2.5% or less,some double or triple heading. Can I suggest angling track to walls where possible or using gentle S curves ,creates more illusion of distance,,. as well as leaving spaces for scenery or structures. Also in front of backscenes use building "flats",then low relief.then 3-D, and some of a smaller scale in places further back.Hope this helps.
Sound advice, cheers mate.
hi charlie i have used theses risers and found them very useful never boring great video as always all the best al 👍👍👍👍😀
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video LJ
I do agree with you, after doing that wonderful 3D area around the viaduct, the station does look a little 2 dimensional. It is a shame that the platforms are long and straight. I think a station in front of the slope would benefit from a slight S curve especially if there any lines by-passing the station. I do wonder if 4% is a little steep as a visual effect and whether double track is a good idea and that a small terminus like Cheltenham St James or Bath Green Park could then feed into single track up and down the slope with points doubling the track at the bottom connecting to the RH end of the station. It would certainly make it more interesting operating at two different levels. You do like making trouble for yourself but it is my favourite channel and I can't wait for your next video, whatever you choose to do.
Thanks Don, great thoughts mate.
Charlie, scary but true i thought you should do what you said even before i finished watching the full update go high and make central a focal point as for the risers hot knife in half then card on top ! love the plan go for it ! John from Chichester .
Thanks for your encouragement John.
Hi Charlie,
Just want to say that your work is fantastic, I've been following your channel for some time now and really been enjoying your progress, I would agree with previous comments and rotating the TMD, I think the incline and Chadwick central is a great idea, I'm currently rethinking my own layout and this is exactly what I was thinking but wasn't sure about the incline sets but now I've seen yours it's a green light for me.
Ps I would like to become a patron of yours but funds for my own layout are tight so contributing to someone else's isn't something I can do right now but I really do appreciate your layout updates and all your UA-cam content.
Kind regards
Sam
Hi Sam, it’s great to have you onboard.
An incline was exactly what I thought would really good, prior to you saying so; especially from your own perspective in that room as it will bring the trains further up to your eye level, where the base board is already fairly high. So often one looks down at the layout. Would look amazing :)
Sound advice, cheers mate.
Charlie, I've found in my journey with model railroading, when my skills improve with a project I am wont to go back and apply those skills to the old stuff I did before. You are finding the same thing. I really do feel your viaduct scene is a huge step up for you; it is exceptionally well done, and it provides a ton of visual interest for your viewers/visitors. While building that scene, you also learned that the scene improves if your track (and structures, for that matter) is not parallel to the edge of your boards. Looking at all of your old trackage, it seems all of that breaks that rule. You might want to rethink your overall plan, with the idea of continuing to step up your game with each new area you model. You're a great modeler, and you are very thoughtful in how you proceed with new things. You're at a crossroads with your scenery skills - find a way to make the rest of your railroad empire equal or exceed what you've done with the viaduct scene.
Pat, it’s comments such as yours that make it worthwhile.
Charlie, I’d keep your viaduct and start your risers off (curved?) interchange points either side of that for a longer upper run. That might allow a (less steep?) climb up a cutting through your planned hill to the right of the viaduct. Presumably the fiddle-yards would branch from the viaduct via a tunnel to the rear of the mountain. Parkway might need a slight rethink to accomodate, or start that riser on the left end of the station, over ‘the gap’ (hidden?). A strategically placed road bridge or two might add interest.
Sound advice, cheers mate.
Hi Charlie. I had a 4% gradient using the same materials as you have purchased for my branch line running off the main layout on an approx 40" radius. Even an 0-6-0 tank (no traction tyres) with 2 suburban coaches would struggle. If you tried something like a Pacific then anything more than 5 coaches needed banking. More to do with the radius I suspect, but I would personally try it temporarily in place before you start gluing and screwing.
Will be continuing to watch with interest 👍
Sound advice mate, many thanks.
Hi Charlie,
Thanks for all your videos, I really appreciate the time and effort you go to, I've picked up some great tips.
On the Inclines here's my tuppance for what its worth - I've just laid two sets of double track 4% ones.... - yes it does look a bit steep to me but that's the available space I have so Rule 1 applies.
I have tight curves ( R2 and R3) on my inclines and I found that once I put Powerbase under the Up lines I had no issues with a steam loco that previously had trouble bringing up itself and a coach, now it's as if there is no incline at all with the max length of train behind it - ergo, If i ever lay an incline again ( whether i have a curve on it or not) I will put in the powerbase anyway - that way if I get a loco that doesnt like the incline I can add the magnets to help it. If no locos need it, the powerbase is not that expensive to have put it in as an insurance policy.
On the one or two parallel foam inclines question - next time I will put just one foam incline in and put a wide base on it - ply or similar with extra supports at the edges. With curves on the inclines, one of the foam inclines ends up being shorter and so is at a different height at various points etc. etc. With a bit of judicious stretching and compressing I think the differences in height I have now are acceptable to me.
Also - two foam risers next to each other do seem to me to be a bit wide and I did consider thinning them but in the end I decided to leave them as is in order to keep my current construction momentum going.
As a long term fan of C.J. Freezer type plans - a high level terminus on a layout with a lower level loop - yup go for it
i like the idea of rotating the TMD 180 degrees as others have suggested.
Cheerio.
Ned.
Wow Ned, what a great comment. I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video and thanks for your advice.
Regards Charlie
Great idea for the terminus station and how to maximise impact with another level. My layout is essentially 2 levels where the inclines are mostly hidden in tunnels or behind back-scenes. Seeing the incline on your layout in full view against the wall with the shelf, baseboard and back-scene horizontals in near proximity does tend to emphasis the steepness of the gradient. A method I take is to use the entire length available between each level. For example if the length from the starting point (lower level by platform) to the end point (upper level above fiddle yard before entering terminus) is 12' and the height difference was 6", then I would evenly spread the incline over this distance. I suspect this would give you a far more realistic incline. Of course this might mean the risers are redundant as I would make a series of wooden supports, say every 6" with each height calculated by the total number of supports to get an even gradient. On the topic of the track-bed width (if you use the risers), I would just use the one set and lay some thin MDF (3mm) over the top at the track-bed width required. Gosh, that a lot for my very first comment on a UA-cam channel.
Sound advice, cheers mate.
I love your approach Charlie, it makes me feel better about keep changing my own mind. Having said that I am 009 so no such thing as double track and 4%.. not an issue :-)
Thanks Stephen, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
Very interesting. Keeping in mind a good few branch type lines will run with inclines randomly spread across the route, guessing they were always designed for slower moving trains, makes sense to add an incline rather than digging out further just to keep the line as flat as possible.
My layout is full of inclines ranging in various lengths and nothing struggles on any of them. All were fully tested with 12 coaches.
I like the idea of inclines as it adds a great dimension to a flat layout.
Great encouragement, thanks mate.
I was always told put the track down before you do anything else and run the track, you will soon realize if you are going to get bored. I know this theory works as I did this when I first started. Interesting video.
Sound advice Mark.
1. Two single risers for double track, or if you go edge to edge you may have triple track.
2. Have a period of regular passenger and parcel trains (parcel trains on the back-most track for freight) and then dedicate a special train to be your Chadwick Central Express with an opening charter season, and then start regular service.
3. Perhaps include a dedicated point to point transit/tram (passengers only) from one end to the other.
These ideas may be a bit out of order, but maybe it would further excite your purpose for your building upgrade (literally and figuratively) new line.
Cheers! John
Sound ideas John, many thanks.
Yep. Double track and Central is the way to go. Incline does look a little steep, but with the right scenery you will get away with it. (You should see mine!) I did the same thing with the Woodland packaging 😂😂😂😂😂
But ...... you’re dead right, it’s too steep.
Hi Charlie, thoroughly enjoyed this video, thank you.
Inclines are a nice interesting feature, with a lot of potential, but I agree 1:25 is a bit severe.
I’ve incorporated a single track incline on my layout to feed a branch terminus & opted for 1:40 min, with minimum 24”rad curves (space limitation). Built of hard board & I used a string line to sight the gradient profile. This was useful as I discovered areas where I could ease the gradient. DCC concepts magnetic system works excellently (as mentioned elsewhere). An essential for this incline with steam locos. My old Woolworth is content with 3- 4 coaches & in the real world there would be load restrictions for various classes of locos, anyway.
Viaduct scene looking great & really enhances your layout.
Have you thought about a parcels depot to busy up the foreground area of the station area?
Hope this helps. You have encouraged a lot of useful ideas too, so thank you for that.
Thanks for your constructive comments Dave, much appreciated
I've used the Woodland Scenic inclines and they work really well. One word of caution, be careful when using the foam. You will need to think about how the incline starts and how the foam will transition at the base of the incline. You need to maintain the gentle start to the gradient. Any lumps or bumps will cause issues.
Sound advice, thanks Mr B
G’day Charlie, I’ve been using the Woodland Scenics incline on my layout for a couple of years now. I used matte board (the stuff used for mounting photos) because I had stacks about. After gluing the incline in place I cut the board large for two tracks and glued it to the incline. It has been working a treat sine I installed it. Hope that this helps.
Sound advice, thanks Tom.
All sounds exciting , look forwards to future uploads . Your ideas make good sense and can only enhance the layout .
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
Definitely , there are a few of you on here who have inspired me to have a go myself . Thank you
Re the width of the poly incline - either glue some 5mm polystyrene on top of the risers to create the required width roadbed and have an overhang which could be supported (if necessary) with scraps OR slice the risers in half lengthwise and glue the risers to the centre of the required width roadbed ( again 5mm poly), thus giving support under the sleepers/rail. Both options might need fettling to get the height right.
Sound advice, thanks David.
Hi Charlie, Glenn from Australia here. Another great video, brilliant to have a tour of the layout, cheers.
Like the idea of the risers and second station above fiddle yard. Will add more operational options. Roundy roundy and fiddle yard, to terminus, the best of both worlds. Speaking of operations, have you considered the possibility of double crossover in your existing station ala Exeter Central for making up and splitting pass. trains?
Also wanted to say a friend here has used the same 4% risers, only single track though. He had a few issues, diesels were generally ok but steamers did struggle, maybe not a problem for you. He overcame this by using the DCC magnet system, not sure what its called? The other thing to make sure of is that all couplers are level and reliable as he used to have quite a few breakaways on the transitions up and down. I am certain you will be on top of this though.
Thanks again, is good to hear your thoughts and conundrums re. planning
Sound advice, thanks G.
I like the idea of introducing relief into the landscape, I have tried to do that with my own layouts. It does not necessarily have to be the track that changes elevation the landscape can change around it as you did with the viaduct
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Mark.
Hi Charlie, great video as usual. I would agree with a number of others in making the incline as long as possible and thereby as shallow as possible. Also having a single di-directional line on the branch would give more operational interest. I'm sure what ever you decide it will be interesting to see it develop.
Thanks Geoff, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it
Evening Charlie ...Just giving some thought on your layout and for any suggestions that you may take on board. As we all come to a cross roads at times !!! Hence more minds and suggestions are better than one !!!!
1/:---- Turn slightly your Terminus on the right side of you bridge.Have your fiddle yard underneath,gaining some more room in the process for any improvements later on.Plus gaining a 1-4% gradient, this will do the trick nicely !!! DDC Concepts", do a nice system of magnets.on inclines only. This will make your rolling stock run nicely and smooth !!!
2/:---- As a suggestion only. On a 1st rad/curve. One can used it for a cattle market,horse loading bay at the location of the old engine shed,as a shuttle between Parkway and Central. Which will be eye catching in its own right alone. The only engine's one can use are in steam are 0-3-2 or 2-3-0, or 4-4-0,depending upon what ERA your doing at present ??? Anything larger than this then problems may occur. I fit small fishing lead weights to over come this problem or for any derailments. It could be a "Heritage Line" only.
Great video once again Charlie... At the end of the day its your layout.To decide which channel you may wish to go down... Carol
Thanks Carol, some interesting options.
A issue that you may like to consider before the gradient is installed is the overhead clearance between the fiddle yard and the upper station area. I model in N scale and have a triple shelf layout. I have only left 200mm or 8 inches between the middle and lower shelf. I find this no where enough vertical clearance. I use the lower shelf as a staging yard (American Fiddle yard) so understand the difficulties of rerailing and doing other such chores. A clearance of at least 300mm or 1 foot would be the minimum vertical distance I would require nowadays.
Neil W
Sound advice, cheers mate.
I do enjoy the look of Chadwick Parkway as it stands; a simple station is often quite appealing. Personally, I would remove Chadwick TMD and put the large station there instead, as Chadwick TMD would probably be the part of the layout I'm least fond of. Loving the videos, though! Keep up the good work!
Sound advice, cheers mate.
Your demonstration of how NOT to open the riser box made me almost snort my tea out of my nose; I'd do exactly the same thing! Followed and bell dinged and I look forward to seeing this progress. As others have said you could use the risers as a form to cut your own from thicker material, or place a wider top on it as well? I love the look of the layout and think the raised terminus is a really good idea also :) cheers!
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it BK and thanks for subscribing too.
Very neat that you tested for traction on the incline. Is your incline going to include a curve and how much will that affect the drag of wheels on rail?
I see David Bookler has already mentioned the possible use of thin board to perhaps overhang a single set of polystyrene risers to give room for a double track. I know I did not allow enough width to accommodate coach overhang on my curve!
During the first part of your video when you first mention the fiddle yard I wondered if exposing the yard as as storage yard in use would save the need for perhaps cameras top see what is actually happening. Then when your terminaus station was mooted, I wondered if a "high level station" as the terminus could still expose some of the fiddle yard to save reaching underneath in cases of emergency?
Interesting points And sound advice, cheers mate.
Hi Charlie. Great video as usual. I made two inclines on my layout, one up one down with another layer underneath, so I can have trains leaving my main station and disappearing underneath the layout around another loop until I want to bring them up again. My inclines are made of 12mm ply supported underneath with baton. As you’ve already invested in the Woodland Scenics incline why not have a piece of something like 4mm ply cut to a width to accept two tracks stuck on top of the foam. Good luck with whatever you decide.
Thanks for the pointers Jeff
Yes, this is really 'boring' Charlie !..... Not ! Great video again, thanks, I love your stuff.
Thanks Jon.
Charlie, you absolute mad lad! I’m usually very supportive of what you do, because you do such a great job!
I’d normally say that this is a bad idea at this stage, but if Charlie Bishop is on the case, I’m sure it will actually be excellent.
Thanks for your support L, I just couldn’t live with a second rate design
Charlie I have those risers on my layout and I used plain brown hard board cut to into strips wide enough for 2 tracks and a little extra each side, you can lay the hard board rough side down and it will glue to the risers, the hard board is cheap and easy to cut and you can lay track on the smooth side.
A good tip SR, many thanks.
Hi Charlie looks great the incline it's what you like not others mine has a single incline the fiddle yard will be a great idea it doesn't look to steep to me looks great keep up the great work cheers Paul
Thanks Paul, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting
I watched with interest as i have a similar idea for mine ; which at the moment is just a shuttle service. but i am also considering a bigger turn round out into the garden; oh the joys of planning. good luck with yours.
Thanks Stewart, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it
Charlie I model in N and use the Woodland Scenics inclines on double track. Certainly it isn't suited for OO double track. My concern is the incline. 4% is very steep. I tried that during construction last year and have just ripped it up. Not only do locos have problems with a long load, but it doesn't look great. I went back to 2% - and expanded the layout to accommodate my folded dog-bone.
Sound advice, thanks Ken.
I would use the 3 % grade for the rise 4 % may cause a problem when the track levels out. Also I would not run all the tracks parallel to the edge of the table. If you just use a simple angle and slightly curve it will look more organic and not laid out. I used just over 2.5 % grade on my n scale and it looks prototypical. Anyway nice video.
Sound advice, cheers mate.
Hello,
Really looking forward to seeing more videos on the incline project. The new station will definitely add to your great railway.
Thanks Robert, you’re too kind.
@@ChadwickModelRailway hello, have you considered moving the incline anti clockwise a bit on to the curve? Although, I am not sure if the trains will run better on a straight incline.
Yes curves do need greater power.
I’m building my first OO gauge DCC layout and use the 4% woodland scenic inclines. A great product but you would need two sets side by side to ‘safely’ carry your double track lines to Chadwick Central.
An elevated station would be a great idea to ‘hide’ the fiddle yard, as long as you build in easy access for ageing hands and eyesight!! (from personal experience)
You could also run a line, ‘elevated’, through Chadwick Central and connect back down an incline with your beautiful new viaduct.
Thanks for the great video production and interesting topics.
The most important thing though is, would YOU enjoy that layout?
Thanks John, it’s comments such as yours that make it worthwhile
Hi Charlie. You mentioned about the incline looking too steep. A good idea to hide this could be to continue the arched retaining walls on the outside, along and down 4% with the the track to the bottom of the incline. That way you still see any trains running up but from behind a small wall. Failing that, a tunnel would hide it very well indeed. Hope this helps ☺
All good advice, thanks T.
Great ideas! Marvelous opportunity for more interesting terrain. Carry on...
Thanks Chris
Hello Charlie! Great video as ever. Like many, I think the gradient looks a bit steep, so maybe the next one down and take round the corner a little? I'm still at the thinking stage of my layout...😅 Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. Central sounds like a great feature, and one mentioned the idea of a parcels yard which seems good. Best of success!!
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Edward
Hi Charlie, I would sugest that on the polystyrene inclines you mount a board to give you a double track width and fill the space either side of the risers with landscaping or retaining walls.
Keep up the great work, I get plenty of useful ideas from your videos and they transfer easily to n gauge which is what I work in.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
Hi charlie. Great video as always. I have an incline on my sons track and it uses the hornby bridge supports. Using them was easy but I feel going off hornby's suggestion of having the supports every 30 sleepers is a bit steep and my steamies (thomas the tank and co.) Struggle with multiple wagons/coaches. Was thinking of other ideas and you've given me one! Thanks.
Your layout I think will work as you describe and cant wait to see how it unfolds...
Paul B
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Paul.
Hi Charlie - had a double track incline on my layout and definitely had to use two incline kits side by side - gets interesting around curves as the outside one reaches the height before the inside one.
Peter
Thanks Peter, sound advice.
Looks grand! Now thanks to your help I am building my own model railway!
I feel honoured. Thanks mate
Hello Charlie,
If you have the space for a shallower incline then I would use one as the aesthetics would be improved. As mentioned elsewhere in these comments pack out the incline with expanded polystyrene to make it thick enough to take a double track and use a hot wire cutter to match it to the slope of the incline. Having a terminus over your fiddle yard is a great idea and gives you scope for more scenic imaginations. In what would have been a dead space. The two dead straight platforms, parallel to the edge of the base board could be offset on a slight diagonal or even curved to create more interest. Just my two penny worth to give you more work. I enjoy your videos and the contribution you make to our pass time.
Your 2d are very welcome and you’re so right about the straight platforms.
Have you ever thought about a moduler system? Here in America we have the NMRA modules. We can build a home layout, and then take it to a club or exhibition and join up with other modules to make a large layout.
Sorry but that’s not a regular thing over here, interesting point though.
The risers are single track for 00/HO. They are designed to fit the trackbed with a little bit of play either side for blending into scenery with plaster cloth. Woodland scenic have some great videos on their site showing how to use their subterrain system. Worth a watch if you haven't already seen them.
I’ll check them out James
Love your videos and layout. Your viaduct is fabulous! On the subject of your video - taking into consideration other's comments; think of adding interesting scenes rather than just adding track to make your layout more interesting or exciting as you say. Whatever you do I'm sure it will be great.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video K.
Hi Charlie, Good idea idea about the upper terminus, i would run the gradient in front of the station, certainly more 3 dimensional and means you keep the freight loop, looks a bit different and also gives you a reason to cross the mainlines with a bridge etc.
good luck.
Graham.
Sound advice, thanks Graham.
Hi,
I think is a bit steep. But, if you like it, there's no problem. 😉 What I would do, is I would use both of them, one in front of Park station and one behind, just as you show, and put a viaduct in an angle over the traks of the station.This way, you will have both lines for "Central" in the correct position. Maybe is too much for a medium sized layout, I don't know how will fit.
Sound advice, thanks DG
Good video Charlie. I admire your honesty! I like the incline as it gives another dimension to the layout. My only thought is with regard to the station area in front of it; are you going to have some branch lines and/or sidings? otherwise there is not much other than straight track to look at.
A fair point Simon and I’m on the case!
I'm facing similar issues on my layout re the incline double width issue. In an attempt to aviod doubling costs on a parallel incline, I'm considering using 3mm ply cut to railwidth needed and placing that onto the single incline structure. As always the issue of cost verses time is a factor. I'm now going to wait and watch you! 😜
Oh, no pressure on me then RCR! 😜
Hi Charlie
Once again good video. It’s nice too see that I’m not the only one who second guesses layout choices sometime.
You asked for comments so.. in my opinion a 4% grade may be visually a little extreme even though operationally it could work. My immediate thought was , perhaps you could add some more goods workings in to make things more interesting. Just my opinion.
Anyway keep up the good work, I enjoy your videos.
Cheers from Canada
Bob
Thanks Bob and I do think that you’re right about the steepness.
A small terminus to give you some operational variety sounds just perfect.
Not sure if I heard you right, is the terminus going above the fiddle yard? Fine if fiddle yard is totally and robustly automated, but a pain getting access if you've only got a few inches vertically. I speak from painful experience having just made the mistake of building an inaccessible fiddle yard, and now planning major surgery.
Sound advice, thanks Julian.
Hi Charlie
Fun times making decisions!!! You could always widen the inclines by adding 4 - 6 mm ply strips on top which can allow you to fit two tracks at standard widths as you up and around the curves.
Can you could just lengthen the incline to reduce the climb angle?
Cheers
Andrew
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Andrew.
Hi Charlie,
With your incline, from bitter experience with a 3% incline, I would strongly advise to only incline on a straight run and do not incline curves, the load on the loco increases significantly. If you want to increase the width of the incline to accept a double track you could lay a 3 mm thick ply wood top of course this may increase the noise level slightly.
Every good series of videos and the presentation comes over to me very well. We seem to talk the same sort of language.
Keep it up
gards
Nigel Collins
Hi Nigel, thanks for the info.
On the incline, I'm only thinking of DMUs and three coach diesel hauled trains.
I had planned some curve on the incline but very little.
I guess I'll have to keep my fingered crossed on this one.
Were you attempting to run longer trains?
Charlie I had a double incline on my previous layout. Had to lay two sets of the risers side by side. To be honest it didn't look too wide once I'd done the scenery around it.
Thanks for the encouragement GJ.
With regards your woodland scenic risers / incline, in order to get a double track you could glue some plasticard or something similar onto the top of the risers which would give you the required width and if necessary you could glue some supports onto the side of the incline to provide support for the plasticard. Another interesting video and with an important lesson which is, always remember to do your arithmetic off camera.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Andy.
Scenic scetion above the fiddle will always be a bonus. would suggest using the old engine shed area as a goods yard area. if you think the inclinenis too steep can always reduce the gradient and have it come around on he far corner. adding interest
Sound advice, thanks TB
I'm currently doing the sameish to my layout but mine will be rising and diving down and from the fiddle yard. I'm also opting for the 4% due to space constraints. Thank you for your videos they are a constant help to me.
I’m so pleased that you found it useful Ozzy
Hi Charlie, to my eye the incline looks a bit too steep, however I do think it’s a great idea to take the layout up to another level. Stirling work and vid my friend. Excellent.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Nigel.
Charlie Hi, have been watching your videos for a while, enjoy them a lot. I agree with Steve, just fix a bit of flexible thin ply or MDf on top, to the width you want, then put your track bed on. As far as trying to plan a new layout to fit an old one, I am not in favour of this in general. I find I have to make too many compromises. Planning the whole thing from scratch , I find gives me more flexibility.
Doug.
Sound advice Doug.
This depends on if you want a tail chaser or a point to point layout at our club here in Rangiora we have a Ho scale American layout that runs DCC through a wifi unit to our cell phones using JMRI and engine shed and an OO scale that is a tail chaser and an N scale layout that is also a tail chaser members have a choice whether they want to operate on each layout
Interesting options Kevin.