Is Affirmative Action Unfair to Asian Americans?
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- Опубліковано 1 гру 2022
- An affirmative action battle is again playing out at the highest levels, only this time with Asian Americans at the center of the controversy. At the heart of the matter is the question of whether the Supreme Court should reconsider race in college admissions. The group, Students for Fair Admissions, has taken aim at Harvard University and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, alleging that Asian Americans are less likely to be admitted than comparably qualified white, Black, or Latino applicants. In two separate cases, the group claims that 1.) Harvard’s admissions policy is regressive and discriminates against Asian Americans, and 2.) UNC - which is a public institution and therefore covered by the 14th amendment’s equal protection guarantee - violates both Title VI and the Constitution with its use of race in admissions. But opponents say race-conscious decision making is a necessary tool to address longstanding racism and discrimination. As such, in this timely debate, we ask the question of whether affirmative action is indeed unfair to Asian Americans.
DEBATERS:
LEE CHENG
Lee Cheng is an attorney and community activist who has fought discrimination against Asian Americans for almost three decades. He helped found the Asian American Legal Foundation and Asian American Coalition for Education. Mr. Cheng has worked at various top law firms, including Latham & Watkins, and in a variety of corporate roles, including Chief Legal Officer for online retailer Newegg.com and Chief Operating Officer for Gibson Guitars. He has also served on the Board of Directors of various community and business groups, including OCA-San Francisco Chapter, the Harvard Club of San Francisco, and the Lowell High School Alumni Association. Mr. Cheng also worked in the Harvard College admissions process as an alumni interviewer for nearly 25 years.
JOHN C. YANG
John C. Yang is the president and executive director of Asian Americans Advancing Justice. In 1997, he co-founded the Asian Pacific American Legal Resource Center, a nonprofit organization dedicated to addressing the direct service legal needs of Asian Pacific Americans in the D.C. metropolitan area. He served as chair of the Asian American Justice Center after serving as treasurer of the organization and as a member of its National Advisory Council. Yang was president of the National Asian Pacific American Bar Association from 2003 to 2004, and has served as Co-Chair of NAPABA’s Judiciary and Executive Nominations & Appointments Committee. In that capacity, he worked extensively with the White House and the U.S. Senate in securing the nomination and confirmation of over 20 Asian American and Pacific Islander federal judges and numerous other Senate-confirmed Presidential appointments. Previously, he was a partner with a major Washington, D.C. law firm, and also worked in Shanghai, China for several years as the legal director for the Asia-Pacific operations of a U.S. Fortune 200 company.
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11:36 Unbelieveable. He says the problem is that someone admitted the race based discrimination "to his face" which is "inappropriate" ...not that the discrimination was happening in the first place. It is the admission that is the problem.
Disappointing that both debaters ultimately believe in race-based discrimination for admissions. It would have been nice to have an actual debate between someone who does not believe in race-based admissions and someone who does.
Oh please before this it was whites only AFFIRMATIVE ACTION! Idiot! For centuries it was a white only world! That’s why this law was enforced! To counter white supremacy!!!!! Idiot
What Lee fails to recognize is that the very thing he thinks he supports leads to the very result he despises. There is no way to discriminate on race without this negative, unfair result.
There is zero doubt that affirmative action is discriminatory.
It was a good idea, but there always should have been a baked in sunset clause.
Just keeping it turned on, is almost the equivalent of a permanent price and wage freeze. A useful temporary measure taken to an unhealthy extreme.
It was never a good idea to violate the law and the constitution
When I was applying to colleges, I was advised to not list my race because admissions offices set the threshold for asian applicants higher than other racial/ethnic groups… this has been a known fact among asian students for the selective colleges and universities.
Well Affirmative Action has been struck down. Everything will be good now right?
It's because of all of the cheating yeah Asian students are at the top of the cheating scandals.
Yes it is!
It sounds like "race-conscious decision making" is just a fancy euphemism to be racist. Let's help those in need, but let's not try solving the problem of racism with more racism. 🤷♂
The real issue is legacy, white athletes, children of alumni, celebrity donors, who collectively get in at 45%, mostly white, and have lower scores than most students who get in by Affirmative Action. But let’s attack the small 10% that get in via AA and ignore the 45% who get in by nepotism and wealth, not merit in anyway.
Of course it isn't just a fancy euphemism. What a ridiculous statement.
Chinney men only care about racism when in America, go back to China, what have Chinese contribute to America, nothing, everything they do can be done by another group, they are low energy and useless.
@@Kavafy If a white supremacist discriminated against black people and said "It's not racism; it's race-conscious decision making", would you defend him?
Not really
What about the white only situation that led to this law?
I too was discriminated where different races needed different scores to be admitted into the same highschool the guest.
It is like running a race where different groups start at different places in a race...
If some groups gets an advantage in college admissions, other groups by definition have a disadvantage...
A great debate..positive light was shed..
Is there a lawsuit in play for legacy points.?
This is why I love Imperial Japan of 1880s to 1940s to have both fewer Whites and fewer Blacks.
That’s a pretty racist statement
Interesting. Just from the opening statements it is very apparent that the heart of the difference in this debate is the concept of how to assess discrimination.
In a scenario where race was ignored let's say 30% of the student body would be Asian.
Yet due to affirmative action 20% of the student body is Asian.
One side says that this shows anti-Asian discrimination because race based affirmative action has specifically removed Asian students who would otherwise be there.
The other side says that since Asian as overrepresented compared to population, that is the only comparison that matters and therefore there is no discrimination.
So is the correct comparison of representation a population based one or a comparison based on what would occur in a neutral system?
The answer to this should be so obvious I almost have to convince myself you're being facetious.
There's no reason why the population should be the point of comparison. We would never argue the NBA is racist because there are too many blacks in the NBA compared to the population. It's FINE because MORE BLACKS ARE GOOD ENOUGH TO BE IN THE NBA. Stop entertaining this nonsense. Please. Have some common sense I'm losing faith.
Why an obsession with Harvard? Historically not everyone at Harvard always had the best grades.
@@kel-in5gi I don't believe I mentioned Harvard....
@natheayn6111 I wasn't being facetious exactly, rather I was merely pointing out the actual root of the disagreement.
Another name for this disagreement is "equity vs equality", or equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome etc etc. But both of those are so beaten with overuse I just thought I would lay out, plainly, the essential difference in this debate.
@@searose6192 Okay, fair enough. I thought that debate was put to rest decades ago though as it's a vanishingly small proportion of the population that actually wants that.
But as long as you also believe that 75% of african American NBA players could be booted to make room for the representative 5% Asian 20% Latino and 50+% white proportions without that being discrimination it could be a great argument.
the supreme court who made Alabama redraw districts to make "black districts" is going to tell colleges they can't do that? I am so confused. Well we even out things here some could argue this helps black people because we put really rich and really poor towns together to help balance out the money. To make "black districts" makes me feel like they want to have a place to dump trash and flood towns here... Think about it
John's argument is a contradict in logic. When you take race as a factor, how can you then say there is no evidence that racr was a factor?
He hates affirmative action so much but he honestly sounds so entitled every body kids go threw the same process
Both guest made sound arrangements without name calling.
Hate to have to be the one to tell you the capitalization in your description is explicitly racist, but I mean dude.......the capitalization in your description's explicitly racist.
The capitalization is to compensate for lousy communication skills. Asian students can be exclusionary toward Black and Latinx students. They want to be around white students making white friends if they feel their English is good enough.
The worst argument presented was "it is not unfair because asians making up 7% of the population, make up 30% of Harvard". It ignores the fact that the ratio might be much higher if it was purely merit based.
Should we reject more black players from the NBA because there are "too many" already? Or should we simply pick the best players?
Your NBA analogy doesn't fly! Black people of slavery endured 247 years of chattel slavery, laws against education/reading, Jim Crow, lynching, black codes and etc. Blacks during slavery and after slavery didn't get the same so-called opportunities economically, politically, educational. The best students at the so-called best America colleges/universities aren't the Asians but Africans!
@mdmiah4014it’s illegal to do it by race. Check out the 1964 civil rights act.
@mdmiah4014 Title VI says you can’t discriminate based on race. Violating it like Harvard does harms Asian minorities by denying them a place in the freshman class that they have earned. Isn’t that obvious?
If there was a history of laws and legislation that made other races historically incapable of entering the NBA and current demographics reflected intergenerational inequalities that not only stemmed from those same government mandated laws and legislation but also affected peoples ability to play basketball and compete at the same level as black NBA players then yes definitely more diversity should be mandated as a temporary equity measure until the unfair inequalities are rectified.
@@estrangedsavant5112 the 1964 civil rights act bans racial discrimination for any reason by both public and private institutions. Any reason The constitution forbids it for the state. Do you want to rescind the 1964 civil rights act and the fourteenth amendment? That is the only way to allow universities to discriminate
Why not use economics and *VIEWPOINT DIVERSITY* .
Have an assessment of a person's background and actual views on hundreds of issue and get as many views as possible, both in the faculty and the student body.
This makes sense
@@kel-in5gi Thanks
Viewpoint maybe. But not socioeconomic status. Especially if the goal is to hide discrimination by race.
In our opinion n others all AFFIRMATIVE ACTION is racist. ⛪✝️🇷🇺
What tends to be so cheap in the argument against Affirmative Action is the depth & scope of historical anti-Black sentiment in this country & how largely distant it causes African-Americans to be from White people and Asian-Americans. There was a period in this country when educating a Black person was illegal. There was then public education but marginalized attendance for Blacks. Brown v Board of Education was only the beginning of racial desegregation in public schools, but then this reaction: ua-cam.com/video/9wkg1gQB0LU/v-deo.html.
Asians were discriminated against too they aren’t doing better because of privilege. Black kids don’t study as hard. If blacks were discriminated against they couldn’t be the majority of the nba and nfl. They couldn’t dominate the entertainment industry. When they’re good at something they get opportunity. The fact that society uses black victimhood as an excuse to discriminate against Asians is disgusting. There’s nothing that sick and twisted working against the black community.
This not surprising
Black American have no friends
We fought for civil rights and now everything we fought for is goin against us because of immigrants
I always find this fact funny, which Asian are we talking about? Or better said, which part of Asia are we talking about? I'm Asian, South Asian that is. I don't believe affirmative action is harmful, and it can help even my type of Asian.
Great. Let's have a racial spoils system based on who it helps and the relative clout of the group!
it never actually helps your kind of asian, south asians are also heavily discriminated by affirmative action. Actual Systemic Discrimination.
Does this even need debating?
Said by someone who obviously hasn't watched the debate.
It's being debated in the Supreme Court right now so evidently, yes
Surely, you could have put the question mark after 'Unfair', no?
unfair to tax paying Americans
Tell that to the rich who buy a seat for their kids to get in. Jared Kuchner is a classic example, Varsity Blue scandal, JF Kennedy, George Bush jr…I can list a ton of names of rich and affluent people who got in because of status or connection, who can barely write or read properly much less get good grades.
Because Harvard is part of the government.
I think the main problem is lack of solidarity in the Asian community (which granted, is not a monolith) and their own cultural bias towards especially African Americans.
Let's be honest here, Indians and Chinese especially don't give a shit about their own people in their home countries, so is it that hard to believe that they absolutely don't care about righting a few historic wrongs in the US?
Social mobility is only possible in the US if you can actually emancipate yourself from the lowest strata of society. Affirmative action towards Latins, Blacks and Natives helps to do that. On average it helps more than it hurts.
And I'm sure Yang and Patel can live with their 2nd or 3rd choice of college, if it means that Kareem gets a chance.
...and why couldn't Kareem live with his 2nd or 3rd choice, while colleges refrain from racial discrimination in the bargain?
Why is it up to the Asian Americans to right historical wrongs committed by the whites? Chinese were the only ethnic that was completely banned to immigrate to US for decades in early 1900s, and Japanese Americans were forced to give up their belongs then got sent to internment camps during WW2, while Italians and German Americans slept soundly. Where is "righting historical wrongs" for us?
Also that is very generous of you volunteering other people's kids to sacrifice their education for the sake of social justice. Why don't you quit your job or school right now and tell them to find someone who was less privileged than you to take over? I'm sure you can live with your 2nd or 3rd choice.
...you do know there are a SHIT ton of poor Asians in this country right? And you also know (I guess you didn't listen to this video, since this was a point repeatedly mentioned) that its not poor blacks that are getting into elite institutions but rather rich black people from africa right?
@@tha1ne most African Blacks who get into Ivy Leagues, who are first generation Americans, are NOT rich! They have a culture and work ethic that prioritizes education above all else. In an Nigerian-American household: you either become a doctor, engineer, lawyer, or disgrace! That is what motivates them to study hard, earn excellent grades and get into Ivy leagues. Look at the black students on the media who get into all 8 Ivy leagues-they are mostly of Nigerian or Ghanaian descent.
@@oanochie yea still proves my point, they’re not even the descendants of American slaves lol
Unfair to *what* Asian Americans? Jewish Americans? Armenian Americans? Russian Americans? Iranian Americans? Korean Americans? Georgian Americans? Indian Americans? What?
The non-white ones.
you know what it means when asian american is said, don't hide behind pedantry. it refers to central, east, south east, and south asians. They are the ones being systemically discriminated against by a system that disadvantages them to privilege others.
In India they learn calculus in middle school. What is wrong with Harvard wanting a diverse student body? Other groups are smart too. Just because asians obsess about grades doesn't make them smarter
This makes a hostile learning environment
So you know any Asian studentd who said "they dont want Black and Latinx students"??? And your sentence does not make much sense, dont want them in where??
Why don't you understand about the paragraph? I happen to notice these trends on campus spending time at Harvard and UC Berkeley. East Asian immigrants want to keep to themselves whereas the ones born here find validation from whites. If you are around thousands of students you notice trends in who is hanging out with whom. Harvard is supposed to be where people come together for ideas on solving social problems. The motivation should not be status. I almost thought you were at university of south Florida. I was embarrassed to tell anyone I was at USF. No offense. The rich east Asians can be mean about being smarter than others inherently. I like being poor and other poor people going to college and families of the working poor. Going to medical school to become a doctor the motivation should be to help people not to make money. 3.6 is a good gpa actually. People at that level can learn more effective study skills. More grading weight should be on essay writing. At a university Tennessee campus I looked at the answer key on the wall for a test not a quiz. One of the answers was to draw a hexagon. There is a different level of testing in the written material in the book.
@@andyusfca I talk to young Latinx people all the time and find out how much heart and soul they have
A classmate named Nick was ridiculed at Stanford and really didn't deserve to be treated this way
Silly argument. It's like saying "just because Olympic runners obsess about training, doesn't make them faster".
@@propheteyebert7063 grade grubbing and mean spiritedness over grades can go too far. A 3.6 is a good GPA. Some students forget everything after a test trying to prove you are smarter than other groups goes too far. You are supposed to do your best not treat others like they don't belong in an elite school and beat them out over grades. Sometimes the course material is questionable
The majority of Asian Americans support affirmative action. This was always a kenard of a question
They don't, the one study that showed this is HIGHLY misleading. It asked whether they would support programs that helped black and brown students get into college. ANYONE would say yes to this, it didn't mention at the EXPENSE of asian students or would give these students a leg up where asian students got no such leg up.
@@tha1ne You're a liar! There are many study on this issue and every single one shows Asian Americans support affirmative action in the 60+ percentile
@@seanjenkins331 I assure you I'm not LOL, go check. There's ONE study that's super misleading, all other polls NOT done by activitist centers that Asians and ALL OTHER ETHNIC GROUPS INCLUDING BLACKS are majority against affirmative action
@@tha1ne Yea, that's not true. We cannot have an honest debate if we're using disinformation
@@seanjenkins331 Lmao just cause you're in denial doesn't make it any less true. All you need to do is a simple google search but I know you're not gonna do it. If I post a link here my comment won't get posted, so just look at the 2022 inside higher ed affirmative action poll, the 2022 wapo affirmative action poll (blacks are nearly 50 50 here), the 2019 pew research affirmative action poll, etc.
Over 100 HBCU's yet blacks still crying Victimhood 😂.
You do realize the HBCUs were created because regular colleges historically refused to admit blacks, right?