For me the Legion of the Damned is the manifestation of the rage of slain space marines. The frustration, anger, hatred, confusion of brothers slain by those who should be their allies. I can’t imagine the range of emotions those at Istvaan and Davin experienced. Even in Era Indominitus, loyal marines must feel horribly intense feelings fighting traitors.
*Tau fighting and pushing back the Imperium* Tau general: theis gue'la shall fall in no time and this world will be part of the greater good. *Leigon of the damed and ghost Ferrus, show up and start kicking tau skull in* Tau general: IS THAT THE FUCKING EMPEROR!?
@@oddtomato1049depends whether you mean real Omegon (Heresy era Alpharius) or Heresy era Omegon (real Alpharius) If the former, a corpse on Pluto. If the latter, that's the million dollar question isn't it?
Who needs to becoming a saint of the emperor? Sebastian Yarrick. I'm picturing a black great coat wreathed in green flame, a skull for a head with green flame in one eye, and an oversized skeletal arm made of metal. Why green flame? Because he also receives power from the green skins that still fear the old man
Id like to think that the Legion of the damned are the way they are based off of what your average imperial citizen believes a space marine to be like from myth and legends told over generations Silent, intimidating, believed to be the Emperor's avenging angels which is why a halo floats over thier heads and are reathed in holy fire probably because the idea of purging in fire comes to the average Citizen's mind Coming to the aid of the Imperium seemingly from nowhere when things are at their most dire, like space marines dropping from orbit to crush the enemies of man, and are able to curb stomp Daemons of chaos especially well, most definitely because while a real space marine may have difficulty taking on daemons, people's idea of the Emperor's angels would have them turn chaos daemons into a warp paste
So THAT’S why Ferrus Manus is theorized to be part of the Legion of the Damned! Honestly I thought it was just a fun little community thing but I had no idea it was actually in one of the books
In all fairness, you were IIRC dead by then by the hands of Dorn*. Or maybe you are still alive, maybe i am the Alpharius, or maybe the real Aplharius was the friends and brothers we made on the crusades.
Daemons is usually read as "demons", if we stick with latin there are two ways to pronounce it, traditional and classic, the "ae" is read as "e" (as in red) or "ai" (kaiser, which comes directly from caesar).
As an Australian, Khorne worship is in our blood Part of the reason why anti firearm legislation was supported was because Australians view firearms (in the context of people on the streets using them against regular people) as a coward's weapon The knife has been part of our culture ever since Crocodile Dundee made it painfully obvious A good punch-up is always a great way to settle things The camaraderie aspect of Khorne is incredibly real here So given the blood pact are mostly worshippers of the more rational side of khorne (basically the pre-angron warhounds with more religion) it kinda fits
I can’t wait for Lorgar to return, I think he is the best ticket to refresh chaos, he can try for abandons job, and this time actually get it, and I think having him as a primary antagonist can set the setting up for the future, I think he’s the one with the most potential of all the Primarchs, damned and otherwise
I actually think Lorgar becomes most interesting in the instance that the Emperor officially ascends to godhood. Like currently in 40K if the Emperor actually becomes a god, even if Terra is destroyed or sucks itself into the warp when it happens, it doesn't actually affect the setting in an "end times" kind of way - the Custodes and Sisters of Silence conveniently have large contingents out in the galaxy now so the only major thing would be the loss of the astronomican - which again can easily be replaced by the literal god emperor. But politically it'd be a massive shake-up - some loyalist marine chapters or Primarchs who still live by the atheistic Imperial Truth of the great crusade may consider the Emperor's ascencion a betrayal, whereas Lorgar would arguably be vindicated.
Daemon, or daimon, aren’t necessarily evil in myth. It simply refers to a spiritual emissary of a god. So ‘daemon’ would refer to the Emperor’s warp creatures. Although you could also use ‘angel’ for them, just as you could use ‘demon’ for Chaos warp creatures.
I find it interesting that Genestealer cults manifest familiars into existence just like demons, but tyranids don't have equivalent warp-creatures. They have the shadow in the warp and can do the whole palpatine thing, but only the cults manifest distinct creatures. Eldari have wraithbone and what's left of their gods, many of which feel like mirrors of chaos gods, (kaine/khorne, Tzeench/chegorach, etc.) Tau don't do warp but human defectors have begun manifesting the greater will as a warp entity of sorts on their behalf. Orks have Gork and Mork but I don't know if they ever make "demon" equivalents... I wonder if the Kin have any warp-creatures? Are the Votann starting to get warpy with all the devotion around them?
I personally I think the emperors psychic might has grown so powerful and is consciously or unconsciously empowering people leading them to become saints. Also i really like the idea that the legion of the damned are the souls of fallen astartes whos defiance against the enemies of mankind is so great they keep fighting even after death othere wise how would you get remus ventanus showing up. I also really like your idea of the fire warriors disappearance being the catalyst for the legion of the damned. I think you're right on the money about corax and his changes since diving into the eye of terror theres even a moment in shadows of the past when corax reverts his form into a look that is more what he looked like in the heresy, perhaps becoming a being of pure shadow is something he can turn on and off? Solid video by the way
I think that the survivors of the Flame Falcons are a more likely candidate than the Fire Hawks. The fire hawks were a bunch of hot heads who literally made every other chapter they had to work with want to kill them for their petulance, excessive friendly fire, and tendency to glass neutral worlds just to have something to burn. They were in the war as long as they were merely over a grudge over a fight that THEY started. The Flame Falcons were a group of loyal, ideal Astartes who suddenly mutated to have psychic flames that only harmed their enemies, but not themselves or their loyal imperial allies. The inquisition decided that warranted extermination and decided to kill all or most of them in one great betrayal.
I’m sorry, but the fire hawks sound more like the kind of edge lords who’d wear black armor with bone decorations. I’m afraid you made the opposite case.
@@livefromtheblacklibrary I'm a total armchair 40K lore junkie, and I love the style of presenting you have and the content you're creating. Great stuff!
Fun fact a demon or daemon if you want to be antiquated in it's original definition is just a spiritual entity neither good nor bad so angels, djinn, and judeo christian demons are all actually deamons. There are some that I am not sure if they count like the rakshasaa, and the skin walker.
if you want to be *really* antiquated Daimon, but yes it literally meant lesser divinity. Something between man and the big G Gods. Skinwalkers aren't though they are human magic users, the Navajo version of the Daimon would be the peoples of the previous worlds and the Anaye. Rakshasa are closer but they are *usually* malignant, or at the very least hostile to the divine and humans.
Please stop talking about skin walkers when you clearly have no idea about Navajo folklore. People should be banned from using the phrase 'skin walker' until they're forced to learn what the fuck it actually means. Kthx
I think there's some civil war on some sector that was the War of the False Primarch, that put a lot of chapters at war. I wish that GW give us more than one paragraph about that civil war
I kinda want a story where the fire hawks are in the warp and their sacrifice is finding some repository of dead loyal space marine souls that became one with the emperor and released them and became apart of them as the legion of the damned
Hilarious that I was randomly walking home from work today while watching this video, and saw a random guy walking his dog in the neighborhood with a harlequin eldar symbol on his left calf… I freaked out and fanboyd to him , as they are one of my favorite factions, and we had a nerd fest irl while random passerbys judged hard… understandably… 👿
If you are looking at Imperial demons as physical realm based as oppose to warp entities, they have a lot of similarities to the C’tan in general. Seeing that the void dragon, a C’tan almost in its entirety contained somewhere on Mars, the Mecca of the Mech, Ive always assumed because of this, that the void dragon was the catalyst for machine spirits and why they are much like “taming a horse”. However just like the Emp of Man is basically a battery powered by worship, the void dragon could be contained in its own sorts of Golden Throne and its will is what manifests machine spirits. Whether its a direct extension of big E, or even under control or pacified by him, is still unknown to me.
My head canon The Legion of the damned are the possibly the billions of slain Space marines between when the emperor was put on the throne and today. Where when they die and are loyal to the emperor he literally saves their souls and brings them to him and sends them out to help when his imperium needs them the most. No clue if its true or not. just what my headcanon is.
@@livefromtheblacklibrary You know, in my opinion, the Legion consists of the most loyal, faithful, or heroic space marines from the *entire* timeline of this breed of warrior. The Empyrean is a weird thing, so I could imagine heroes of the Unification Wars fighting side by side with Astartes from the 38th millennium, while martyred Inductii battle at the side of the best of the Unnumbered Sons. In this way, the Legion would consist of Space Marines from every Legion or Chapter that was or is. A way to unite the Emperor's best into a fighting force where all doubt is purged and only loyalty, brotherhood, and vengeance remain.
Just as a lil thing about the Legion of the Dammed, Dan Abnett said that the War in the Webway ghosts were psychic manifestations of the Emperors rage and feelings of betrayal and explicitly not the Legion of the Dammed. Just a little bit more support for your point.
I would like to think that along with the fire hawks, only the space marines under the command of saul tarvitz during the istvaan 3 atrocity are also apart of the legion of the damned, because they are also the most "loyalist of the loyalist." Because of the fact that their loyalty to the emperor was more than to their primarch and leigon, and thus, they suffered the consequences, (except lucius).
I personally believe the Legion of the damned are more akin to ‘marines who’s deaths were great sacrifices for the imperium & so we’re transformed by the emperor’ similar to how people killed while infected with Nurgle’s Rot become plaguebearers, with the Isavaan marines and fire hawks both becoming damned legionaries, the first bunch gaining a foothold with a spiritual Ferrus Manus as leader & the second giving them an immaterial fortress monestary to consolidate within the warp (the appearances of their armour changing based on synonymous ideas of the space marines). With Ferrus rarely taking to battle similar to how a chapter master or Guilliman only fights with their chapter in the most dyer of times, with Ferrus even potentially being the one who turns astartes spirits into legionnaires to recuperate banishment attrition.
I think the legion of the damned is tied to those grey space marines Abbadon met when he was trying to find a way out of the eye of terror. Maybe they are linked with the firehawks some way but i dont think they've been talked about much.
This video especially has inspired me to try and hammer out a whole hombrew faction. Angelis Imperialis “angels of the imperium” or the emperor’s demons with stuff like the LOTD and living saints with and other stuff from where the lore around the imperial faith brushes against high fantasy (those spirits from the astronomicon for example or maybe try and kitbash mechanicus machines with some variation of demons engine rules for the machine spirits) Take the anti chaos of the grey knights some of the more warpy demons rules and combine them with units that are kinda squishy but with tones of Buffs and debuffs especially against chaos and psychers
I like the “machine spirits are imperial daemons” thing much more than the “Ai Fragments” theory that’d been floated around ten years ago. You’re telling me that the Imperium’s primitive-ass machine pistols have AI in them?
A good thing to think of is that Machine Spirits were daemons of the Omnissiah/Machine God, until the Emperor to steal a term from elder scrolls “mantled” the Machine God.
I've only been paying attention to 40k lore for the past two years and have only read a few books, and listened to videos while painting, so I can't be seen as a voice of wisdom. That said, it has seemed obvious to me that the Emperor is basically the god of Order. Tzeentch wants change at any cost, Slaanesh wants perfection and excess, Khorne wants blood and honor, and Nurgle wants death to bring new life. If the gods of chaos are entropic, then the Emperor is negentropic. He represents an absolute, unchanging order. You catch hints of this from Angron in Betrayer in his diatribes at Russ and Girlieman. This is what my custom CSM warband is based on. They recognize that if the Emperor has his way, the entire galaxy will be subject to his will. There shan't be anything left that isn't exactly as he decrees. He won't stop at enslaving humanity, as Angron sees it, though. He will eradicate all will other than his own, resulting in perfect order. This is why my warband somewhat tolerates daemons and accepts the brand of heretics. They see chaos as a necessity to prevent the Emperor from enforcing his ultimate order, thereby eradicating the free will of the galaxy. The 9th edition codex and 10th edition index has made them reliant on chaos gods to function on the tabletop, which annoys me, so I'm focusing on building a Blood Angels successor chapter, now.
I’m surprised you don’t mention Saint Sabbat as she is perhaps the most powerful example of a living saint / imperial daemon we’ve seen. Have you not read the book Urdesh: the Magister and the Martyr? If not go read it. It’s not her direct combat power so much but she possesses / mind controls a large fallen city and simultaneously millions of enslaved imperials rise up under her (or the Emperor’s) direction. Shots are guided to strike their targets perfectly. Unrelated groups of people do ambushes against the enemy timed to the second. What is a lost city with fading pockets of resistance wipes out every single chaos aligned person to a man overnight. It’s like a hive mind under the guidance of the Emperor. It’s referred to as a divine miracle and the imperial high command are baffled.
38:00 Great commentary about machine spirit, because of human components of not only servitors but more complicated machines, they have souls, so they are real in warp. Praying to machine spirit makes sense and is a reasonable way to improve the performance. Probably there are books written in the universe about importance of regularity of maintenance, lubrification and prayers.
I've always liked the idea of the legion of the damned being the betrayed loyalists of Istvaan 3 and Istvaan 5 combined with the fallen loyalists from the horus heresy and the loyalist dead after the heresy
Be'lokor: That's A demon I'd like to know more about.. when you brought him up in this episode, I went and had a look... I am certain he was made by the 4 dark gods so that one couldn't have power over any other.. but lexicanum tells a different story.. so I went to reddit.. and a random other person thought something very similar to what I thought!.. the rest copied the lex.. Who is right? I'm currently searching through all my old White dwarfs to find the thing I read, because I know what I read.
I'd say there's a solid chance that the splitting open of the Eye of Terror might have "blown back" Corvus Corax for a time, and gave Lorgar his leeway to wage his war of religion. Just a theory I doubt Corvus has been killed/captured by the Word Bearers and he will not stop until he kills Lorgar.
I can't remember which volume of "The End and The Death" it appears in but one of the traitor titans during the final siege is explicitly mentioned as starting to become sapient despite its crew being dead for weeks (which it was blissfully unaware of). Said Titan's last act before utter destruction was to enact the saviour protocols, beheading itself, in an attempt to save its long dead crew.
We know that the tau have their own god in the warp now. So I'm wondering if the tyranids have their own demons to. In the new tyranids units their are tapping more into the warp and are heading straight to terra.
The imperium does not have daemons that’s just a completely incorrect interpretation of the source material St. Celestine is literally just a perpetual and a psyker there is not a single piece of lore saying she is a daemon or a piece of the emperor or anything like that.
@@livefromtheblacklibrary I mean, the “Shadow in the Warp” exists. The thing that silences most psychic communication and powers, so that can KINDA be seen as the Hive Minds will made manifest, But only in part, The rest of its manifest will is very much physical, such as unique synapse creatures, like the Swarm Lord, Old One-Eye, and now Norn Emissaries. Those are scary enough.
You forgot the Legion of the Damn book , where they save an imperial cemetery planet from a Khorne war host . And the one surviving Space Marine is telling the story later in life when he became the Chapter Master .
Live! It hurts my ❤ to correct you... but the story of Covus and Logar is confirmed by the author to have happened within the first 1000 years post HH not in the modern setting
I dont really understand why they are called demons, even the legion of the dammed dont fit the name. Warp entities seem to be a better description than demons, considering what guide their actions.
@@livefromtheblacklibrary I suppose that's true, it hits hard but there is a negative connotation when demon is used rather than the opposite, it is confusing to me. And I really enjoy your views on 40k, there very entertaining.
@@tomnash7382I think some people like the confusion and seemingly unfitiing so when a newbie asks about the warp and they see angels someone goes "Well actually those are Daemons, ya see?" but personally I prefer Warp Entity as well. More neutral term. Bit less confusing, not a big deal of course.
Ghost Rider LotD Ferrus Manus is too cool of an idea to let pass by with only a single appearance. C’mon GW. Let us have it. Also give the Iron Hands some cool lore while ur at it. They need a W. Excellent content as always. Hope you feel better soon.
Would be funny If Ciaphas Cain also manifest as a Living Saint due to having a sanctioned cult dedicated to him. There is fanfic at AO3 and he is summoned by serving tanna tea.
For the machine spirit theory we also have the warhammer animation angles of death special were we have the captain of the ship contact the ship and it wants vengance.
@livefromtheblacklibrary word! The helm I speak of has a glass dome face shield with like a picture of a galaxy or something in it. Check out a pic it's pretty cool. I've only got 2 or 3 harlequin audio-dramas so don't have much first-hand knowledge of them besides the fact that I think they're some of the baddest-ass Eldar out there.
I've always wondered about the Legion of the Damned. I've always kind of thought they were the souls of fallen Astartes who were killed in especially cruel and vindictive ways or something, their souls or manifestations of those emotions in their final moments.
Wasn't there a precursor/forerunner to Legion of the Damned in one of the early White Dwarfs? Something about them being mostly bone and returning from uncharted space?
41:05 interesting tid bit here when playing rogue trader i had gone through the warp and all of my servitors had their machine spirits awaken, this was obviously a problem but none the less interesting to see
Re: knights and titan engines and their machine spirits, where you mentioned _Master of Mankind_ for getting the perspectives of both spirit and pilot... IMO, there is even better material in _Assassinorum: Kingmaker_ for this. It even also shows the perspectives of both machine spirit and pilot as they are corrupted by Chaos through a very malicious scrapcode virus! There is also some relevant material in _Dawn of Fire: The Iron Kingdom_ IIRC. Anyway, it is as you say, the smaller engines are more like wild animals which you must tame, and even when they're accustomed to you, you have to "pull on the reins" as it were, to hold them back if they get overly "enthusiastic" in their aggression. The larger engines are more like trying to establish a working respectful relationship with a great warrior - when they're new; when they are older, however, and have been through a few pilots, as you mentioned they become a woven tapestry of all of their minds: all their pilots and the incarnations of the machine spirit bound/integrated to them at those times - a complex melange of minds. It's easy to see how some pilots come to wish to fuse with their machines (especially later in their lives), as it's quite plainly a transcendent experience.
Oh, forgot to mention: those more complex gestalt minds of the old large engines and their machine spirits can become more difficult to work with, a bit temperamental and argumentative. They can also become more picky about which new pilots they accept. I suppose some of the pilot's personality traits can clash with each other, so once the gestalt has experienced some discord as a result of this, it becomes more picky to try to prevent this from worsening? Not sure, but it at least sounds plausible. However, they also become wiser, and aren't as prone to making emotional an d/or instinctual responses, such as those seen in their more extreme form in engines like the smaller Knights.
Not all demons are aligned to the gods. This is stated lots and lots of times that not all warp entities are tied to greater consciousnesses like the four gods. Chaos and the Warp is simply too vast and, well, chaotic for precise alignment or connection. The gods themselves are formed from congealed and combined concentration of emotions and fight to grow their domain but there's lots of things that are independent or tied to minor forces. Belakor and Vashtorr are obvious examples but there's many demons in books that just do their own shit for the sake of doing their own shit. Some are so savage and pure in nature that they're really too wild or primitive to be connected to anything. Basically, there's plenty of Chaos Undivided, Chaos Undecided, Chaos Undetermined, Chaos Underhanded...
31:50 A period of time I would love to be Novelized would be the Nova-Terra Interregnum when the Imperium essentially split in two and had a civil war. Where the Ur-Council of Nova Terra told the High Lords to screw off and had Segmentum Pacificus essentially succeed from the Imperium. This also caused Moirae Schism with the Admech where the Forge World of Moirae believed that the Emperor was using the Astronomicon to communicate via micro-fluctuation which Moriae translated to prophetic messages. Some of these messages saying how one day Mars would be overthrown and how the Admech and Eccleisarchy would one day combined. Admech did not like that This age of two empires apparently lasted for nearly a thousand years in M35 which just blows my mind a little.
Personally I subscribe to a mixed origin to machine spirits. In part, it sounds like the old European view on household spirits and the Japanese Shinto view of an object gaining sentience on its own after a 100 years of being owned and passed on between owners. In that we extrapolate that by those threads of logic that a family or small handful of people over a century impart a spirit with its own unique personality, then look at how the cult machanicus and general imperial view on machines that amount of time shrinks considerably along with they are actively treating it as if it's already alive fresh off the assembly line, and that most wargear of the guard and astartes is usually at leat 100 years old or at the very least have has a factor factorum's worth of techpriests and all their servants blessing and appeasing them all the way throughput their creation process.
As a blood angels fan I can give a rundown of the sanguinor the primarch souls are minor warp gods that had paterionage to certain planets so when they were dispersed most landed on the world of origin so of them didn’t have a planet that they were tied to so landed on random planets sanguines was not one but two warp entities an angel of light and a angel of darkness the sanguinor is the light mepheston is the darkness in physical form.
I can’t get over the 90s sitcom intro. God you’re recently becoming one of my favourite 40K UA-camrs.
AYYYY THANKS
Ngl I also loved the intro
@@livefromtheblacklibrarywhich SpongeBob clips will you be using next episode?
There’s something amusing seeing usually reasonable Guilliman becoming extremely unhinged after all the stress of maintaining the entire Imperium.
Yeah the intro and setup is quite charming
For me the Legion of the Damned is the manifestation of the rage of slain space marines. The frustration, anger, hatred, confusion of brothers slain by those who should be their allies. I can’t imagine the range of emotions those at Istvaan and Davin experienced. Even in Era Indominitus, loyal marines must feel horribly intense feelings fighting traitors.
*Tau fighting and pushing back the Imperium*
Tau general: theis gue'la shall fall in no time and this world will be part of the greater good.
*Leigon of the damed and ghost Ferrus, show up and start kicking tau skull in*
Tau general: IS THAT THE FUCKING EMPEROR!?
PFFFFFTTTTT I GET THE REFERENCE
You know I’m some what of a imperial demon myself.
Real
If I am Alpharius, who is Omegon?
@@oddtomato1049depends whether you mean real Omegon (Heresy era Alpharius) or Heresy era Omegon (real Alpharius)
If the former, a corpse on Pluto.
If the latter, that's the million dollar question isn't it?
HERESY! I'm calling the inquisition
no, that would be omegon, who in itself is already alpharius
Who needs to becoming a saint of the emperor? Sebastian Yarrick. I'm picturing a black great coat wreathed in green flame, a skull for a head with green flame in one eye, and an oversized skeletal arm made of metal. Why green flame? Because he also receives power from the green skins that still fear the old man
Id like to think that the Legion of the damned are the way they are based off of what your average imperial citizen believes a space marine to be like from myth and legends told over generations
Silent, intimidating, believed to be the Emperor's avenging angels which is why a halo floats over thier heads and are reathed in holy fire probably because the idea of purging in fire comes to the average Citizen's mind
Coming to the aid of the Imperium seemingly from nowhere when things are at their most dire, like space marines dropping from orbit to crush the enemies of man, and are able to curb stomp Daemons of chaos especially well, most definitely because while a real space marine may have difficulty taking on daemons, people's idea of the Emperor's angels would have them turn chaos daemons into a warp paste
this makes SO MUCH SENSE
Maybe both a sacrifice and then Changed by belive
So THAT’S why Ferrus Manus is theorized to be part of the Legion of the Damned! Honestly I thought it was just a fun little community thing but I had no idea it was actually in one of the books
In all fairness, you were IIRC dead by then by the hands of Dorn*. Or maybe you are still alive, maybe i am the Alpharius, or maybe the real Aplharius was the friends and brothers we made on the crusades.
19:01 Made myself a Lord Solar Macharius as an imperial saint as a stand in for the Leontus model since Space Alexander the Great needed to live on
HELL YEAH 👀
Daemons is usually read as "demons", if we stick with latin there are two ways to pronounce it, traditional and classic, the "ae" is read as "e" (as in red) or "ai" (kaiser, which comes directly from caesar).
Ohhhh interesting! I didn’t know that!
52:00 protocol 3 protect pilot.
GW was able to trademark Daemons. Swhy 👍🏻 but its cool to know that boss you are a chad
I used to read it like "daymons."
Thanks for the daemonstration there
fucking love the space ghost coast to coast setting
THANKS
I like how you made the Blood Pact pilot Australian for some reason.
It just kinda happened XD
As an Australian, Khorne worship is in our blood
Part of the reason why anti firearm legislation was supported was because Australians view firearms (in the context of people on the streets using them against regular people) as a coward's weapon
The knife has been part of our culture ever since Crocodile Dundee made it painfully obvious
A good punch-up is always a great way to settle things
The camaraderie aspect of Khorne is incredibly real here
So given the blood pact are mostly worshippers of the more rational side of khorne (basically the pre-angron warhounds with more religion) it kinda fits
Because they are criminals
I can’t wait for Lorgar to return, I think he is the best ticket to refresh chaos, he can try for abandons job, and this time actually get it, and I think having him as a primary antagonist can set the setting up for the future, I think he’s the one with the most potential of all the Primarchs, damned and otherwise
I actually think Lorgar becomes most interesting in the instance that the Emperor officially ascends to godhood. Like currently in 40K if the Emperor actually becomes a god, even if Terra is destroyed or sucks itself into the warp when it happens, it doesn't actually affect the setting in an "end times" kind of way - the Custodes and Sisters of Silence conveniently have large contingents out in the galaxy now so the only major thing would be the loss of the astronomican - which again can easily be replaced by the literal god emperor.
But politically it'd be a massive shake-up - some loyalist marine chapters or Primarchs who still live by the atheistic Imperial Truth of the great crusade may consider the Emperor's ascencion a betrayal, whereas Lorgar would arguably be vindicated.
Space Marine: "Only in death does duty end!"
Legion of the Damned: "Only for quitters..."
Daemon, or daimon, aren’t necessarily evil in myth. It simply refers to a spiritual emissary of a god.
So ‘daemon’ would refer to the Emperor’s warp creatures. Although you could also use ‘angel’ for them, just as you could use ‘demon’ for Chaos warp creatures.
Not in 40k. In 40k demons are only capable of evil. These are positive warp manifestations or angels as you put it.
I find it interesting that Genestealer cults manifest familiars into existence just like demons, but tyranids don't have equivalent warp-creatures. They have the shadow in the warp and can do the whole palpatine thing, but only the cults manifest distinct creatures. Eldari have wraithbone and what's left of their gods, many of which feel like mirrors of chaos gods, (kaine/khorne, Tzeench/chegorach, etc.) Tau don't do warp but human defectors have begun manifesting the greater will as a warp entity of sorts on their behalf. Orks have Gork and Mork but I don't know if they ever make "demon" equivalents... I wonder if the Kin have any warp-creatures? Are the Votann starting to get warpy with all the devotion around them?
The Emperor's domain is a city of dust. How fitting. A great work now abandoned and decaying.
Now I have to have redeemed rubrics serving in the city of dust as guards.
I personally I think the emperors psychic might has grown so powerful and is consciously or unconsciously empowering people leading them to become saints. Also i really like the idea that the legion of the damned are the souls of fallen astartes whos defiance against the enemies of mankind is so great they keep fighting even after death othere wise how would you get remus ventanus showing up. I also really like your idea of the fire warriors disappearance being the catalyst for the legion of the damned. I think you're right on the money about corax and his changes since diving into the eye of terror theres even a moment in shadows of the past when corax reverts his form into a look that is more what he looked like in the heresy, perhaps becoming a being of pure shadow is something he can turn on and off? Solid video by the way
So the legion of the damned are basically draugr.
I would love to hear more of your ideas and opinions on The Emperor and things relating to him.
Same! I love making videos on The Emperor
Honestly the best emporer related vids I've seen has come from this channel
@@xavierhugo9269 Absolutely agree.
I think that the survivors of the Flame Falcons are a more likely candidate than the Fire Hawks. The fire hawks were a bunch of hot heads who literally made every other chapter they had to work with want to kill them for their petulance, excessive friendly fire, and tendency to glass neutral worlds just to have something to burn. They were in the war as long as they were merely over a grudge over a fight that THEY started. The Flame Falcons were a group of loyal, ideal Astartes who suddenly mutated to have psychic flames that only harmed their enemies, but not themselves or their loyal imperial allies. The inquisition decided that warranted extermination and decided to kill all or most of them in one great betrayal.
I’m sorry, but the fire hawks sound more like the kind of edge lords who’d wear black armor with bone decorations. I’m afraid you made the opposite case.
I'm loving your channel. The Space Ghost Coast to Coast interview desk is fantastic.
AYYYY THANKS! I’m pleasantly surprised how many people caught that
@@livefromtheblacklibrary I'm a total armchair 40K lore junkie, and I love the style of presenting you have and the content you're creating. Great stuff!
Fun fact a demon or daemon if you want to be antiquated in it's original definition is just a spiritual entity neither good nor bad so angels, djinn, and judeo christian demons are all actually deamons. There are some that I am not sure if they count like the rakshasaa, and the skin walker.
Yeah I’m Hindu and Rakshaa are more neutral, they just so happen to be on the wrong side
if you want to be *really* antiquated Daimon, but yes it literally meant lesser divinity. Something between man and the big G Gods.
Skinwalkers aren't though they are human magic users, the Navajo version of the Daimon would be the peoples of the previous worlds and the Anaye.
Rakshasa are closer but they are *usually* malignant, or at the very least hostile to the divine and humans.
Please stop talking about skin walkers when you clearly have no idea about Navajo folklore. People should be banned from using the phrase 'skin walker' until they're forced to learn what the fuck it actually means. Kthx
Dope video. I had no knowledge about knights, but this concept of merging and taming a knight spirit seems quite intriguing - nice take :D
I think there's some civil war on some sector that was the War of the False Primarch, that put a lot of chapters at war. I wish that GW give us more than one paragraph about that civil war
I just realized your background is freaking Space Ghost Coast to Coast!!
For the love of God have all your video guests be at Zorak's keyboard desk!!
I always forget in the early lore the badab war was the focus. The horus heresy was nearly an obscure trivia fact then it seems.
Favorite 40k UA-camr, and I watch them all.
T H A N K S
I kinda want a story where the fire hawks are in the warp and their sacrifice is finding some repository of dead loyal space marine souls that became one with the emperor and released them and became apart of them as the legion of the damned
Now I want legion of the damned faction now
GW PLEASE
What do you think there 10th edition army rules would be? Hypothetically.
That intro and desk...
*looks over at the entire Coast to Coast DVD box set and smashes that sub button*
XD NICE
I love Machine Spirits. I like how theyre so mysterious that many people dont even think they actually exist.
You Pancreas and others give the vibe of old TTS crew's pre TTS content
Me like
Grim dark stories with happy jazz playing in the background
Hilarious that I was randomly walking home from work today while watching this video, and saw a random guy walking his dog in the neighborhood with a harlequin eldar symbol on his left calf… I freaked out and fanboyd to him , as they are one of my favorite factions, and we had a nerd fest irl while random passerbys judged hard… understandably… 👿
BRETHREN SPOTTED
Eh, fuck em' if they judge.
Mephiston would definitely be considered another Living Saint, literally imbued with the darkness of his Primarch and made into a Daemon Prince.
If you are looking at Imperial demons as physical realm based as oppose to warp entities, they have a lot of similarities to the C’tan in general.
Seeing that the void dragon, a C’tan almost in its entirety contained somewhere on Mars, the Mecca of the Mech, Ive always assumed because of this, that the void dragon was the catalyst for machine spirits and why they are much like “taming a horse”.
However just like the Emp of Man is basically a battery powered by worship, the void dragon could be contained in its own sorts of Golden Throne and its will is what manifests machine spirits.
Whether its a direct extension of big E, or even under control or pacified by him, is still unknown to me.
the idea that the Emperor is suffing that much in the warp, just wanting to died, not a god, just barley hanging on.
My head canon The Legion of the damned are the possibly the billions of slain Space marines between when the emperor was put on the throne and today. Where when they die and are loyal to the emperor he literally saves their souls and brings them to him and sends them out to help when his imperium needs them the most. No clue if its true or not. just what my headcanon is.
I think it’s only a very select few marines
I really hope this is the case
@@livefromtheblacklibrary You know, in my opinion, the Legion consists of the most loyal, faithful, or heroic space marines from the *entire* timeline of this breed of warrior. The Empyrean is a weird thing, so I could imagine heroes of the Unification Wars fighting side by side with Astartes from the 38th millennium, while martyred Inductii battle at the side of the best of the Unnumbered Sons. In this way, the Legion would consist of Space Marines from every Legion or Chapter that was or is. A way to unite the Emperor's best into a fighting force where all doubt is purged and only loyalty, brotherhood, and vengeance remain.
Just as a lil thing about the Legion of the Dammed, Dan Abnett said that the War in the Webway ghosts were psychic manifestations of the Emperors rage and feelings of betrayal and explicitly not the Legion of the Dammed.
Just a little bit more support for your point.
i can never hear enough about the Legion of the Damned
The Black Library seems like a jolly place
I would like to think that along with the fire hawks, only the space marines under the command of saul tarvitz during the istvaan 3 atrocity are also apart of the legion of the damned, because they are also the most "loyalist of the loyalist." Because of the fact that their loyalty to the emperor was more than to their primarch and leigon, and thus, they suffered the consequences, (except lucius).
Screw Lucius. Not literally though, slaaneshi bastard would probably like that.
I personally believe the Legion of the damned are more akin to ‘marines who’s deaths were great sacrifices for the imperium & so we’re transformed by the emperor’ similar to how people killed while infected with Nurgle’s Rot become plaguebearers, with the Isavaan marines and fire hawks both becoming damned legionaries, the first bunch gaining a foothold with a spiritual Ferrus Manus as leader & the second giving them an immaterial fortress monestary to consolidate within the warp (the appearances of their armour changing based on synonymous ideas of the space marines). With Ferrus rarely taking to battle similar to how a chapter master or Guilliman only fights with their chapter in the most dyer of times, with Ferrus even potentially being the one who turns astartes spirits into legionnaires to recuperate banishment attrition.
Basically 40k's Stormcast Eternals, only Ghost Rider themed
your videos are always a treat. Thank you for the quality. I believe the emperors realm you speak of in in the HH novel the outcast dead FYI.
Ohhhhh nice! I need to read that one still
@@livefromtheblacklibrary it's a tough read for custodes fans lol
I think the legion of the damned is tied to those grey space marines Abbadon met when he was trying to find a way out of the eye of terror. Maybe they are linked with the firehawks some way but i dont think they've been talked about much.
This video especially has inspired me to try and hammer out a whole hombrew faction. Angelis Imperialis “angels of the imperium” or the emperor’s demons with stuff like the LOTD and living saints with and other stuff from where the lore around the imperial faith brushes against high fantasy (those spirits from the astronomicon for example or maybe try and kitbash mechanicus machines with some variation of demons engine rules for the machine spirits) Take the anti chaos of the grey knights some of the more warpy demons rules and combine them with units that are kinda squishy but with tones of Buffs and debuffs especially against chaos and psychers
Never watched a lick of your content before.. the SGCtC set caught my eye and demanded I watch.
Man, Machine Spirits are one of the coolest aspects of 40k.
The machine spirit tank rampage sounds like a 40k bolo tank story, and i like that.
I like the “machine spirits are imperial daemons” thing much more than the “Ai Fragments” theory that’d been floated around ten years ago. You’re telling me that the Imperium’s primitive-ass machine pistols have AI in them?
A good thing to think of is that Machine Spirits were daemons of the Omnissiah/Machine God, until the Emperor to steal a term from elder scrolls “mantled” the Machine God.
The Dan Abnett book Titanicus does a great job of showing what the mesh is like.
I've only been paying attention to 40k lore for the past two years and have only read a few books, and listened to videos while painting, so I can't be seen as a voice of wisdom. That said, it has seemed obvious to me that the Emperor is basically the god of Order. Tzeentch wants change at any cost, Slaanesh wants perfection and excess, Khorne wants blood and honor, and Nurgle wants death to bring new life. If the gods of chaos are entropic, then the Emperor is negentropic. He represents an absolute, unchanging order. You catch hints of this from Angron in Betrayer in his diatribes at Russ and Girlieman.
This is what my custom CSM warband is based on. They recognize that if the Emperor has his way, the entire galaxy will be subject to his will. There shan't be anything left that isn't exactly as he decrees. He won't stop at enslaving humanity, as Angron sees it, though. He will eradicate all will other than his own, resulting in perfect order.
This is why my warband somewhat tolerates daemons and accepts the brand of heretics. They see chaos as a necessity to prevent the Emperor from enforcing his ultimate order, thereby eradicating the free will of the galaxy. The 9th edition codex and 10th edition index has made them reliant on chaos gods to function on the tabletop, which annoys me, so I'm focusing on building a Blood Angels successor chapter, now.
I’m surprised you don’t mention Saint Sabbat as she is perhaps the most powerful example of a living saint / imperial daemon we’ve seen. Have you not read the book Urdesh: the Magister and the Martyr? If not go read it. It’s not her direct combat power so much but she possesses / mind controls a large fallen city and simultaneously millions of enslaved imperials rise up under her (or the Emperor’s) direction. Shots are guided to strike their targets perfectly. Unrelated groups of people do ambushes against the enemy timed to the second. What is a lost city with fading pockets of resistance wipes out every single chaos aligned person to a man overnight. It’s like a hive mind under the guidance of the Emperor. It’s referred to as a divine miracle and the imperial high command are baffled.
"....Daemons are evil unless they aren't, now lets get into; I'm gonna talk about daemons of the Imperium"
Me: Ah, so also evil ones.
38:00 Great commentary about machine spirit, because of human components of not only servitors but more complicated machines, they have souls, so they are real in warp. Praying to machine spirit makes sense and is a reasonable way to improve the performance.
Probably there are books written in the universe about importance of regularity of maintenance, lubrification and prayers.
I've always liked the idea of the legion of the damned being the betrayed loyalists of Istvaan 3 and Istvaan 5 combined with the fallen loyalists from the horus heresy and the loyalist dead after the heresy
Just watched your other video and then I see this, what a treat
👀 timing
Love the Space Ghost Coast to Coast aesthetics. Loved that show as a kid.
Be'lokor: That's A demon I'd like to know more about.. when you brought him up in this episode, I went and had a look... I am certain he was made by the 4 dark gods so that one couldn't have power over any other.. but lexicanum tells a different story.. so I went to reddit.. and a random other person thought something very similar to what I thought!.. the rest copied the lex.. Who is right?
I'm currently searching through all my old White dwarfs to find the thing I read, because I know what I read.
I think machine spirits are just maintenance LLMs. You're supposed to just talk to them normally, but a prayer can work too.
Small critique, the Corax story according to the author is shortly after the end of HH
Ooooops
I'd say there's a solid chance that the splitting open of the Eye of Terror might have "blown back" Corvus Corax for a time, and gave Lorgar his leeway to wage his war of religion. Just a theory I doubt Corvus has been killed/captured by the Word Bearers and he will not stop until he kills Lorgar.
I absolutely LOVE the intro, buddy!
Ark mechanus machine spirits are wild. We really have no idea what they are fully capable of.
I can't remember which volume of "The End and The Death" it appears in but one of the traitor titans during the final siege is explicitly mentioned as starting to become sapient despite its crew being dead for weeks (which it was blissfully unaware of). Said Titan's last act before utter destruction was to enact the saviour protocols, beheading itself, in an attempt to save its long dead crew.
Another fantastic video. Lots of great points. I really wish the Legion of the Damned wasn’t relegated to Legends for 40K.
Hope you feel better soon.
Nice to See you got the 10k Mark congrats
YEAH! I really need to get to the 10K special
imperial deamons makes so much sense within the lore, idk why people would think it's a diviation
The Emperor ordered t
something? Did i miss anything. I thought the Emperors text to speak device was a parody!
Logos is also a rhetorical approach to arguments appealing to logic and factual ordered arguments which also is opposite to chaos
The idea that humans become demons of the emperor when they die is so cool
my new fav warhammer channel :)
THANKS!!!!!
This video was blessed by the local DMV office
I made it an hour long so you can watch it while in line
@@livefromtheblacklibrary I'm literally doing that but the reception here is shit it keeps buffering
Truly the DMV has no mercy 😔
We know that the tau have their own god in the warp now. So I'm wondering if the tyranids have their own demons to. In the new tyranids units their are tapping more into the warp and are heading straight to terra.
A psychic manifestation of the hive mind would be the scariest fucking thing holy shit
The imperium does not have daemons that’s just a completely incorrect interpretation of the source material St. Celestine is literally just a perpetual and a psyker there is not a single piece of lore saying she is a daemon or a piece of the emperor or anything like that.
@@livefromtheblacklibrary
I mean, the “Shadow in the Warp” exists. The thing that silences most psychic communication and powers, so that can KINDA be seen as the Hive Minds will made manifest, But only in part,
The rest of its manifest will is very much physical, such as unique synapse creatures, like the Swarm Lord, Old One-Eye, and now Norn Emissaries. Those are scary enough.
9:33 I love how you call losing 80% of your chapter in repeated ambushes as effective fighting.
Baneblades, like the Shadowsword in the 'Baneblade' novel acts of its own accord to rid itself of the orcs.
You forgot the Legion of the Damn book , where they save an imperial cemetery planet from a Khorne war host . And the one surviving Space Marine is telling the story later in life when he became the Chapter Master .
Logos is a good choice, divine order and information through words.
The more he talked about living saints, the more certain that Caiaphas Cain is coming back as an Imperial Saint.
Live! It hurts my ❤ to correct you... but the story of Covus and Logar is confirmed by the author to have happened within the first 1000 years post HH not in the modern setting
WOOPS
@@livefromtheblacklibrary still my hero
I dont really understand why they are called demons, even the legion of the dammed dont fit the name. Warp entities seem to be a better description than demons, considering what guide their actions.
That’s fair tbh but it doesn’t hit as hard lol
@@livefromtheblacklibrary I suppose that's true, it hits hard but there is a negative connotation when demon is used rather than the opposite, it is confusing to me. And I really enjoy your views on 40k, there very entertaining.
@@tomnash7382I think some people like the confusion and seemingly unfitiing so when a newbie asks about the warp and they see angels someone goes "Well actually those are Daemons, ya see?" but personally I prefer Warp Entity as well. More neutral term. Bit less confusing, not a big deal of course.
@@tomnash7382
Demon does, but daemon simply refers to a non-mortal servant of a god, good or bad.
Ghost Rider LotD Ferrus Manus is too cool of an idea to let pass by with only a single appearance.
C’mon GW.
Let us have it.
Also give the Iron Hands some cool lore while ur at it. They need a W.
Excellent content as always. Hope you feel better soon.
Man, I just want to give the Emperor a hug 🥲
Would be funny If Ciaphas Cain also manifest as a Living Saint due to having a sanctioned cult dedicated to him. There is fanfic at AO3 and he is summoned by serving tanna tea.
For the machine spirit theory we also have the warhammer animation angles of death special were we have the captain of the ship contact the ship and it wants vengance.
"Dæmons" should abide by Latin rules.
In this case, either go for the archaic "Die-mons" or the Ecclesiastical "Day-mons."
Nice. I just noticed that your avatar seems to be wearing Astrocyte Verse... the warlock helm from destiny... smooth.
Interesting but no actually, I’ve never played destiny! It’s a harlequin shadowseer but with a head wrap as opposed to a shawl
@livefromtheblacklibrary word! The helm I speak of has a glass dome face shield with like a picture of a galaxy or something in it. Check out a pic it's pretty cool. I've only got 2 or 3 harlequin audio-dramas so don't have much first-hand knowledge of them besides the fact that I think they're some of the baddest-ass Eldar out there.
I've always wondered about the Legion of the Damned. I've always kind of thought they were the souls of fallen Astartes who were killed in especially cruel and vindictive ways or something, their souls or manifestations of those emotions in their final moments.
Wasn't there a precursor/forerunner to Legion of the Damned in one of the early White Dwarfs? Something about them being mostly bone and returning from uncharted space?
Feeling cool as hell rn as one of the people who suggested Weft. Let's goooo
41:05 interesting tid bit here when playing rogue trader i had gone through the warp and all of my servitors had their machine spirits awaken, this was obviously a problem but none the less interesting to see
Love the birdman coast to coast set
Re: knights and titan engines and their machine spirits, where you mentioned _Master of Mankind_ for getting the perspectives of both spirit and pilot... IMO, there is even better material in _Assassinorum: Kingmaker_ for this. It even also shows the perspectives of both machine spirit and pilot as they are corrupted by Chaos through a very malicious scrapcode virus!
There is also some relevant material in _Dawn of Fire: The Iron Kingdom_ IIRC.
Anyway, it is as you say, the smaller engines are more like wild animals which you must tame, and even when they're accustomed to you, you have to "pull on the reins" as it were, to hold them back if they get overly "enthusiastic" in their aggression. The larger engines are more like trying to establish a working respectful relationship with a great warrior - when they're new; when they are older, however, and have been through a few pilots, as you mentioned they become a woven tapestry of all of their minds: all their pilots and the incarnations of the machine spirit bound/integrated to them at those times - a complex melange of minds. It's easy to see how some pilots come to wish to fuse with their machines (especially later in their lives), as it's quite plainly a transcendent experience.
Oh, forgot to mention: those more complex gestalt minds of the old large engines and their machine spirits can become more difficult to work with, a bit temperamental and argumentative. They can also become more picky about which new pilots they accept.
I suppose some of the pilot's personality traits can clash with each other, so once the gestalt has experienced some discord as a result of this, it becomes more picky to try to prevent this from worsening? Not sure, but it at least sounds plausible.
However, they also become wiser, and aren't as prone to making emotional an d/or instinctual responses, such as those seen in their more extreme form in engines like the smaller Knights.
Absolutely fantastic UA-camr dude. What a legend
Fav 40k channel rn
Not all demons are aligned to the gods. This is stated lots and lots of times that not all warp entities are tied to greater consciousnesses like the four gods. Chaos and the Warp is simply too vast and, well, chaotic for precise alignment or connection. The gods themselves are formed from congealed and combined concentration of emotions and fight to grow their domain but there's lots of things that are independent or tied to minor forces. Belakor and Vashtorr are obvious examples but there's many demons in books that just do their own shit for the sake of doing their own shit. Some are so savage and pure in nature that they're really too wild or primitive to be connected to anything. Basically, there's plenty of Chaos Undivided, Chaos Undecided, Chaos Undetermined, Chaos Underhanded...
Do you think they are related to the great eagles from lord of the rings
Yes I do
31:50 A period of time I would love to be Novelized would be the Nova-Terra Interregnum when the Imperium essentially split in two and had a civil war. Where the Ur-Council of Nova Terra told the High Lords to screw off and had Segmentum Pacificus essentially succeed from the Imperium. This also caused Moirae Schism with the Admech where the Forge World of Moirae believed that the Emperor was using the Astronomicon to communicate via micro-fluctuation which Moriae translated to prophetic messages. Some of these messages saying how one day Mars would be overthrown and how the Admech and Eccleisarchy would one day combined. Admech did not like that
This age of two empires apparently lasted for nearly a thousand years in M35 which just blows my mind a little.
Personally I subscribe to a mixed origin to machine spirits. In part, it sounds like the old European view on household spirits and the Japanese Shinto view of an object gaining sentience on its own after a 100 years of being owned and passed on between owners. In that we extrapolate that by those threads of logic that a family or small handful of people over a century impart a spirit with its own unique personality, then look at how the cult machanicus and general imperial view on machines that amount of time shrinks considerably along with they are actively treating it as if it's already alive fresh off the assembly line, and that most wargear of the guard and astartes is usually at leat 100 years old or at the very least have has a factor factorum's worth of techpriests and all their servants blessing and appeasing them all the way throughput their creation process.
As a blood angels fan I can give a rundown of the sanguinor the primarch souls are minor warp gods that had paterionage to certain planets so when they were dispersed most landed on the world of origin so of them didn’t have a planet that they were tied to so landed on random planets sanguines was not one but two warp entities an angel of light and a angel of darkness the sanguinor is the light mepheston is the darkness in physical form.
Good analysis but I think demon is the wrong word, "warp entity" would be more fitting, like the Avatar or Gork and Mork.