Thius is why jomboy is the king. The talking heads on broadcast networks just sit for hours and spew "opinions". Jomboy actually checks the facts, does some in depth investigation adn then presents it to the audience and brings the receipts. Fantastic work mate, This is what baseball fans deserve.
The network guys have no excuse. They're pundits for the most empirical, stat driven sport in the world and they can't be bothered to do their homework
Also, Jomboy is multi-sport. His approach is being noticed elsewhere. Wouldn’t surprise me if he gets an invite to any of the cricket world championships with the comments he’s getting from some of the greats in that game.
Mets don’t deserve the New Yorkers hard earned money with bullshit like we all just witnessed in this video. It’s base running like this that is killing the competitive edge of the game. Along with how many first pitch fastballs they let wiz pass them. What a joke…
I really can’t believe I started watching Jomboy for weird baseball fight breakdowns back in the pandemic and now he’s got me watching - intently - 22 minutes of dudes sliding into 2nd base.
Jomboy is the GOAT. This channel singlehandedly showed me my love for baseball again. Used to be obsessed until my uncle who took me to the games died.
i was getting ready to comment that not running it out to break up double plays is rly common nowadays, but i think i'm just a yankee fan watching stanton and judge try not to get injured
The wild thing for me about the Mets isn't that they don't slide, but that 90% of the time they vacate the base path, leaving a perfectly unobstructed throw... That's a wild find by Jomboy. Kudos for all the effort and wonderful commentary!
At the MLB level there is basically zero chance the player is going to get hit in the chest by a throw from 2B to 1B. You have to be real close to the bag to be large enough to obstruct the throw legally, and if you are that close a bona-fide slide has a better chance of breaking up the play as it will disrupt the throwers footing. ua-cam.com/video/hsVcqwrlVRw/v-deo.html is a rare instance where not sliding makes sense, but it required the runner establish himself on a basepath well inside the grass first.
Yeah the more I watch them the more confused I am, their reasoning doesn't make any sense either. And frankly I dont think Hernandez or Cohen are the sort who would buy into that at all. Even in the modern game this is arguably incorrect/not hustling enough. If Hernandez bailed out ofthe baseline like that in the 80s hed have been FIRED
Kinda seems like he refuses to risk hurting another player to prevent an out. Kinda seems like he was taught sportsmanship and fair play when he was coming up Side note: I'd be interested to see if he's ever bat flipped and/or watched a homerun leave before running. In other words, does he showboat
I love how this evolved from looking at how McKneil slides to realizing the Mets probably have a different organizational philosophy on breaking up the double play. As someone who does a lot of research for their own job, I know all too well how exciting it is to make a bigger discovery than you were originally planning 😊
Since the Dodgers injured Tejada in the 2015 NLDS, you’d think the Mets would show a little pride. Play hard but not dirty. A comment from the Mets needed to happen after Jomboy pantsed them
As a Met fan for 55 years, this is an incredible discovery. This is an integral part of what can be what makes the difference between not just winning and losing, but telling your competition you've come out to win. Thank you for raising my awareness.
For every other team, it's a 'chance for two.' But the Mets conservative play makes it a 'definite two.' Definitely the difference between winning and losing.
This is incredible work. Nobody, I mean NOBODY else in baseball journalism will take the time to lay this out. You continue to amaze us Jimmy. Hats off.
On this specific topic? Yeah, sure-but there’s no reason to disparage literally everyone else who writes and makes baseball content just to compliment Jimmy.
@@bcask61 I mean, you literally said no one else in baseball will put up a twenty minute video showing what they’re found. That’s kinda a huge insult to the rest of the baseball media. Never even insinuated anything about myself, let alone that my feelings were hurt, so you saying that ironically makes it sound like I offended you.
Yeah Foolish Baseball doesn’t exist 😂 just because you don’t know another baseball journalist that produces similar work doesn’t mean none exist. It’s just an argument from ignorance
Yeah I don't see why some people can't give a compliment that is 100% positivity. They always have to make sure they let out some anger, even with their compliments. It's pretty sick actually.
Seriously, this should be considered for a Peabody or some other award for journalism. Find a flaw, point out the flaw, test the flaw as thoroughly as possible to see if it really is a flaw, & then share how you reached your conclusions so that others can verify the flaw. Genuinely great work!
This might be the best breakdown ever on this channel, pretty eyeopening to something that nobody really pays attention to. It definitely looks like somebody on the Mets is misinterpreting the slide rule and passing it along to all the players
I looked this up for the 2023 Giants cause I was curious about my team - the ex-Mets of the team stand out like a sore thumb. JD Davis and Conforto bail and jog off the basepaths. Flores slides early but he’s also pretty slow, so semi-competitive. He played in AZ between NYM and SFG. The other quicker players from 2023 SFG were not Rhys-aggressive, but competitive. Sliding late and making sure the fielder had a contested line of sight as he catches the ball. Even Brandon Crawford, as slow as he was at age 35-36, would be upright as long as he could with his hands going up as he slid. He definitely would know as a shortstop how much a runner could make a play difficult. Probably the best “dead to rights baserunner from first” the Giants had last year
And that’s right up Francisco‘s alley. He likes To chat with everybody and be their friend I actually saw him knocking dirt off another players uniform the more I watch this team in franchise the more I can’t stand them
@@jaydeatts Guys are busting ass down the line to first in every one of these, so saying it's a hustle or toughness issue like they don't care about the outcome seems off.
@@pretzelhunt someone's salty that an African American Studies professor was the president of Harvard and acknowledges the nuance between free speech and harming other people's acceptance in the public sphere. So they shoehorn her into UA-cam comments sections in an attempt to make themself feel better about not being a PhD who leads perhaps the most prestigious university in the world.
As a Mets fan, this is pretty embarrassing. Jomboy I know for a fact this video is going to land on SOMEONES desk in the Mets organization. You should try and track every time McNeil(or every player on the Mets) slides to try and break a double play for the rest of the season and see if there’s a difference in outcome. If there is, demand to be hired as the new manager and take us to the World Series.
@@jaydeatts I believe this entire video flew right over your head mate. NO ONE said anything about sliding dirty, or breaking legs.... the point he's making is at least make it DIFFICULT to turn 2. Uncomfortable, within the rules.... ya know, like every other team. No one said this was the reason they haven't won the world series lol, just that it's incredibly ODD for the Majors.💡
@@BNeud1The "Granny jog" base run. I don't get it...seriously...what is this Mets franchise if they have players not going to try and hustle if they have the speed to do it with?
Hilarious that that screnshot that people kept spamming to call McNeil a dirty player, he slid WAYYYYY early, I knew people were taking that out of context
This had to be the most interesting video I've watched from you. Thank you for being so good at your job and you deserve all of the attention you get for it!
As a Mets fan what the fuck are we doing? I’ve definitely noticed guys not trying to break up double plays but I did not realise it was this consistent
It appears to me that your team has a lack of competitive spirit. I think it starts with coaching. If things don’t improve if I was GM I’d fire the staff and bring in coaches with competitive and winning attitudes.
Really appreciate throughout this thread the general reaction of Mets fans. So used to fanbases diving into defend the indefensible automatically, no matter what a player or team has done. If instead more fans would hold the teams accountable when they see things that are clearly wrong with the team, things might change. Drop the hammer on the Cohen and hold him accountable for the team culture, rather than the checkbook. If this doesn't change, nothing else will matter. It helps explain why spending a fortune last year did nothing.
Right? The amount of times I've seen someone run through the base lazily and casually walk off on the double play and not realised why it felt so wrong is melting my brain a little. There's no effort to prevent it. At all. I can't even be mad at them I'm just disappointed as all hell. The lack of effort at the plate. The giving in once things clearly aren't going their way. The lack of hustle. The constant belief that it'll all just fall into place at the end of the season for a wildcard spot rather than trying to actually compete. And there isn't even a "we're not competing" excuse for most of it. There's a problem in this time and I don't even know where the root of it is.
This is brilliant. Jomboy changing the game with his observations and analyses, what a champ! Is there a section in the baseball hall of fame for commentators?
I think this is a great example representing how culture is so valuable to a team, and playing the game hard beats expecting to win cause you have talent
This is brilliant work, Jimmy. The next thing I would want to know is how this shows up in the team's statistics. I would assume that, because of this, the Mets are more likely to hit into double plays than other teams (although obviously there are lots of other factors that affect how often a team gives up a double play). Over an entire season, I wouldn't be surprised if this team-wide baserunning approach is causing the Mets to lose a handful of games that would otherwise be wins.
@@tbone6032and fat Pete is still getting down to second base faster than 'Speedy' Jeff McNeil. McNeil just doesnt care and just trying to get a check and start fights for someone sliding legally just cause he dropped a ball lol
@@phinatic9591 bad take all around. Watch any part of McNeil’s game and hustle isn’t his problem, this is intentional. And you say he’s mad cus he “dropped a ball” except it was literally ruled on the transfer and he got the out
I think the idea behind running through the base is that you can be on a full sprint the entire time (obviously sliding will slow you down as you get to the base) and you might beat a bang-bang play and then you have the tag situation. I think I saw it work out for the Cardinals once last year. BUT that only works on really close plays and it requires a full sprint and not lollygagging to second base which is what most of the Metropolitans were doing in this.
I dont think the cardinals do this when a double play is possible. Both times I've seen the cardinals do it (Gorman against pirates and motter against dbacks) there have been two outs base loaded. This means that the runner at first will often be an after thought meaning bigger leads and bigger secondaries than normal. Also 2 outs allows for runners to start moving earlier when they can anticipate contact. All this to say it allows to get second base quicker than usual. Pair that with a lackadaisical throw and you get them beating it out and stealing a run. On the other hand, with only one out the runner will likely not get to second as quickly due to either being held on by 1b or due to the fact that they have to identify ball down before they start running. That's why you break up slide rather than run through, bc unless defense botches throw the ball will always be there before the runner would ever have a chance to run through the base to beat the force. If the Mets are teaching that it seems odd, not to mention the risk of runner interference with a fielder turning two by trying to run through the base and possibly contacting a fielder.
@@nathantomerlin1123 yep, perfect. it makes sense with two outs, it makes no sense when a DP is possible. if anything, i think the organization had to have misunderstood a rules brief or they made a specific policy change to protect the players from injury and they're using this to try to cover for it now.
@@cnking27 OK, I thought I was going crazy seeing everybody comment that yeah this is what is taught to do on double plays to beat the force out at second. Like unless you've got ungodly speed I don't know how you possibly beat a double play turn standing up/running through the bag on a standard ground ball. I agree there has to be some directive in the organization that is calling for standing up rather than doing the standard break up slide.
@@nathantomerlin1123 it makes no sense because they aren't running fast on half of these, either. The play where the guy on first would be fast enough to beat a throw to second, while the person covering second could get a throw to first fast enough to beat the runner there, is like, so unique it would be difficult to even set up. It would be incredibly dumb to change how your players play based on that. I also don't think it's just a lot of guys on one team just happen not to care about breaking up double plays either, like a lot of comments are saying. IDK why they're being told to do it but it's pretty clear that they are.
Excellent work! As a huge Mets fan their passive playstyle has bothered me for a while but I couldn’t truly break down exactly what I meant by it. I was yelling at my TV at Lindor during the game because a slide there could go a long way since the play at first was so close. I’ll keep an eye open for them but I know there are more gritty type plays that the Mets continually acquiesce to which hurts my soul, too.
Oh! Things like getting out of the way for the catcher, too. They basically hold the door for them sometimes to get their teammates out on pickoffs and caught stealing.
With regards to the "run through the bag so they have to tag you" strategy, I think I can offer some clarification (using physics WOO!). They're not hoping the fielder doesn't step on the bag; they're telling the runner to stay on his feet and keep running, because it's FASTER than sliding. Sliding does two things: It makes you harder to tag, and it helps you STOP on the bag. The trade-off is that you stop using your legs to propel yourself forward, so you're later actually getting to the base. The fastest way to get to the bag is to haul ass and stay on your feet, sprinting right through the bag (just like at first). Then the second part is that if you DO get to the bag before the ball gets to the fielder stepping on the base, they won't get the force, meaning it's a time play. You'd use this strategy when there's one out, so a double play ends the inning, and the runner was already coming home on contact. So, if you successfully beat the throw to second, the run counts, even if they throw it to first and then get it back for the tag-out double play. That's the strategy. It's a marginal play, but if you've got a runner on third with one out, and it's going to be a close play at second, you just might end up stealing a run. So, I'd say it does make sense, but only in that edge case. All the other examples are just bad baseball.
The problem is though that they look like they are not hustling like a runner that would go past first. They just look like they give up halfway through. The logic is there, but their execution just looks like they don't understand the assignment and reasoning.
That's what I thought the announcer meant as well, even if it might not have been what the player was actually doing. The announcer only had the context of a runner not sliding into the bag, and "The Mets don't know the rule" seems like a pretty unlikely explanation if you haven't done a deep dive like in this video.
Mets equipment manager snuck a clause in his contract about no unnecessary stains. If you try and break up a tailor made double play, you're washing your own pants.
Seeing this kind of reinforced the comments Pham said about the team and their hustle. As a Mets fan this explains so much. I hope someone fron the Mets see this and is embarrassed and causes a change.
The supercuts of about a dozen double plays successfully being turned when McNeil was running, and then not being turned when Hoskins was running, is insane. Is there a statistic to track the rate of double play conversions as a first-base runner on groundballs, maybe in Stathead or something? Curious if the real difference between them is actually that large, and if it gets incorporated into stats like WAR.
I remember either last season or 2022, there was a double play in a Cardinals game where Cardinals player didn't slide going into second base on a double play attempt and they had to go back and tag the Cardinals player. They talked about what the strategy was.
Yeah I remember that specific play and commented about it as well. It does make sense when you’re not thinking about it on the fly during a podcast. It’s a smart strategy if the scenario is right.
Crazy. I've watched probably 90% of all Mets pitches for years now & it's never even occurred to me outside of a few times you just think "hey, he slid pretty early there." Thanks for the work, Jomboy. I continue to be amazed at all the new ways the Mets can embarrass themselves...and me by extension!
Same here... ive definitely felt the lack of hustle and giving em the play at times and have been frustrated with it, but i, in no way, thought it was this blatant & often Now, am i surprised? Sadly, I'm not LFGM 😔
The new strategy is this: You’re supposed to run full speed through second in an effort to beat the force play thereby turning a double play into a force play at first only. If a runner is at third he will score before a rundown can get the second out. So an inning ending double play turns into a run scoring play. Also all kinds of other outcomes are possible. It only makes sense with one out and usually with a runner on third. Lindor did not execute it well in this example because it looks like he forgot.
ok so what the fuck are mcneil and half of the other mets doing in these videos? is veering off or sliding early to get out of 2B sightline part of this strategy? Because as a baseball fan, my team doing this would make me think they just don't care
I'd be interested to see a play where a runner beat the throw running through second and forced the situation described above. It seems like sliding to break up double play is more likely to result in runner at first being safe due to poor throw or no throw as opposed to requiring runner going into second to beat the throw
There was a situation last year during a Yankees game where I believe Florial ran through the base and it somehow worked out for them. I remember the YES broadcast talking about it for a bit right after
considering that contact is almost non existent within the rules nowadays when it comes to breaking up double plays, I think it would be way too tedious trying to determine what counts as a broken up double play. Cause sometimes a infielder might just have a terrible throw to first without it being necessarily affected by the runner sliding into second base. It's way too subjective of a stat to actually give anything important in terms of information.
10:30 Reds fan here- I feel like I've seen Elly de la Cruz attempt the same thing at 2B, the idea is if you go full speed and run through the bag when it's a close play rather than sliding you might beat the force out so the middle infielder has to make a tag. that extra delay can help a runner be safe at first or allow all sorts of chaos if the defense doesn't play the situation correctly. Jogging and ducking out of the way like McNeil is a bit too far tho imo.
Utley’s slide was dirty AND illegal, broke Tejada’s leg, and mlb did nothing. The mets probably think if they did the same, THEY would get in trouble. This is what happens when mlb takes sides.
Super glad baseball and this series is back! Excited to see the topics you explore and share. I appreciate the analysis and opinions you highlight. Really great work!
when vid hits about the 14:00 minute mark you can see the player turning the play, they aren't even a bit worried about a slide coming in from the mets that it seems they are making almost nonchalant throws or throwing seeds right on target to show off their arms, this vid is great like so many are from Jomboy!!
Not for nothing, but this is the kind of analysis and interaction (leaving the link so we can check it out) that made me loyal to Jomboy Media. It's what you don't find anywhere else. Headed over to watch the full video now. Thanks for this.
Geez bro. I had to take time out of my busy day to explain this to you. Been playing baseball since I was born, all the way through CSULB. Now I coach. So I have seen and played a lot of ball in 62 years. This has been my strategy FOREVER. It looks funny, until it WORKS. And it works. We have won lots of games this way. Especially in the last inning of the game. i tell my players when they are on first, with a man on third and less than two outs, to RUN RIGHT THROUGH SECOND BASE. Do not slide if it appears that sliding will make you out. It is FASTER to stay upright and run through second (as you would first base). This is in hopes of BEATHING THE BALL on the play to second base so that you are safe. (Not as you suggested in case the 2nd baseman/shortstop misses the bag). In your video, the Mets were actually doing this wrong. They need to RUN HARD THROUGH second base The Mets slow down, which defeats the whole purpose of my strategy. If my runner can beat that throw to second and the ONLY way to beat the throw to second is by staying upright and running THROUGH the bag, then that is what I teach. if my man on first can beat the throw to second, then the defense has to tag my runner once my runner goes past and beyond second base into left field. This is a legal play, because that runner is not doing so to avoid a tag. He is allowed to run straight and PAST second base. Doing so allows my runner on third to score a run. The runner on third will always reach the plate before the runner going from first to second is finally tagged out by the defense. Especially if the defense "turns two" and throws the ball to first after the runner is safe at second. I love your show bro. Thank you for a lot of laughs. I can tell you work hard and I hope it pays off for you. Paul
Hold up... How deep does this go?? How far back does this go with the Mets? Does it change from before their current manager started, or what? And how can people that get paid so much money get this rule wrong. It blows my mind that they see pretty much every other team acting differently and they're not checking on that to improve their game??
A Mets fan on reddit said he did the same search for double plays going further back and he said their sliding was normal until around 2022. So for some reason it suddenly changed to this "polite" idea only a few years ago.
this is journalism
This is embarrassing
Remind me-who asked
What's your problem?@@BadDriversofNewYorkCity
This is a comment.
He's a Mets fan and is saying that it's embarassing for the Mets organization.
Thius is why jomboy is the king. The talking heads on broadcast networks just sit for hours and spew "opinions". Jomboy actually checks the facts, does some in depth investigation adn then presents it to the audience and brings the receipts. Fantastic work mate, This is what baseball fans deserve.
The network guys have no excuse. They're pundits for the most empirical, stat driven sport in the world and they can't be bothered to do their homework
Thank you!
100%! Very well said.
@@JomboyMediaespn will be stealing your work before the end of the week
Also, Jomboy is multi-sport. His approach is being noticed elsewhere. Wouldn’t surprise me if he gets an invite to any of the cricket world championships with the comments he’s getting from some of the greats in that game.
Jomboy legit about to get Mets coaching staff fired and i’m here for it. God we suck
Just imagine what else they do we don't notice...
Makes me feel grateful being a cardinals fan even tho we're still shit
Mets don’t deserve the New Yorkers hard earned money with bullshit like we all just witnessed in this video. It’s base running like this that is killing the competitive edge of the game. Along with how many first pitch fastballs they let wiz pass them. What a joke…
Isn't it a new coaching staff. I can't imagine 2023 Buck Showalter saying "Play nice and give them a clear throw"
I don’t typically watch baseball other then the playoffs but these videos really have me wanting to watch more
I really can’t believe I started watching Jomboy for weird baseball fight breakdowns back in the pandemic and now he’s got me watching - intently - 22 minutes of dudes sliding into 2nd base.
So same
same here
22 minutes of dudes not sliding into 2nd as well!
@@emmettnaughton6792so real😭
Jomboy is the GOAT. This channel singlehandedly showed me my love for baseball again. Used to be obsessed until my uncle who took me to the games died.
“Who am I to break up the double play” quote is hilarious
i was getting ready to comment that not running it out to break up double plays is rly common nowadays, but i think i'm just a yankee fan watching stanton and judge try not to get injured
The wild thing for me about the Mets isn't that they don't slide, but that 90% of the time they vacate the base path, leaving a perfectly unobstructed throw... That's a wild find by Jomboy. Kudos for all the effort and wonderful commentary!
At the MLB level there is basically zero chance the player is going to get hit in the chest by a throw from 2B to 1B. You have to be real close to the bag to be large enough to obstruct the throw legally, and if you are that close a bona-fide slide has a better chance of breaking up the play as it will disrupt the throwers footing.
ua-cam.com/video/hsVcqwrlVRw/v-deo.html is a rare instance where not sliding makes sense, but it required the runner establish himself on a basepath well inside the grass first.
Fr, and some of them didn’t even get halfway to second. Like they didn’t even care to try.
Yeah the more I watch them the more confused I am, their reasoning doesn't make any sense either. And frankly I dont think Hernandez or Cohen are the sort who would buy into that at all. Even in the modern game this is arguably incorrect/not hustling enough. If Hernandez bailed out ofthe baseline like that in the 80s hed have been FIRED
Mcneil getting out of the way that blatantly is actually insane
Yeah. I got in trouble for this in high school lol. Coach said give up your body. Put your head down.
he clearly feels strong about that
It appears he's just way too slow to ever have a chance
Kinda seems like he refuses to risk hurting another player to prevent an out. Kinda seems like he was taught sportsmanship and fair play when he was coming up
Side note: I'd be interested to see if he's ever bat flipped and/or watched a homerun leave before running. In other words, does he showboat
@@jaron91cause he’s not giving effort to break up the play. Hoskins is way slower but he gets there because he hustles to break it up
this is more of an in depth investigation than a breakdown
agreed! might be cool to call it a deep dive in the title and have these on this channel occasionally for the bigger stories and controversies
in depth breakdown
this is closer to what a "breakdown" really is/means in my opinion
Excepting he doesn't get both sides of the story.
@chall6761 lol... what?
I love how this evolved from looking at how McKneil slides to realizing the Mets probably have a different organizational philosophy on breaking up the double play. As someone who does a lot of research for their own job, I know all too well how exciting it is to make a bigger discovery than you were originally planning 😊
Since the Dodgers injured Tejada in the 2015 NLDS, you’d think the Mets would show a little pride. Play hard but not dirty. A comment from the Mets needed to happen after Jomboy pantsed them
This is why Jomboy eats the traditional media's lunch. Absolutely fascinating in-depth analysis. Real sports journalism, not sycophancy.
As a Met fan for 55 years, this is an incredible discovery. This is an integral part of what can be what makes the difference between not just winning and losing, but telling your competition you've come out to win. Thank you for raising my awareness.
Except the Mets were a top 10 team at NOT grounding into double plays last year. So it doesn't seem to really make a difference?
@@TheNathanlockhartthere are so many factors that go into that. You are highly regarded
The point is that the Mets are soft and don’t hustle
None of the DPs shown are even close. This is a poor attempt to prove anything.
For every other team, it's a 'chance for two.' But the Mets conservative play makes it a 'definite two.' Definitely the difference between winning and losing.
This is incredible work. Nobody, I mean NOBODY else in baseball journalism will take the time to lay this out. You continue to amaze us Jimmy. Hats off.
On this specific topic? Yeah, sure-but there’s no reason to disparage literally everyone else who writes and makes baseball content just to compliment Jimmy.
@@warlordofbritannia pretty sure I didn’t do that. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.
@@bcask61
I mean, you literally said no one else in baseball will put up a twenty minute video showing what they’re found. That’s kinda a huge insult to the rest of the baseball media.
Never even insinuated anything about myself, let alone that my feelings were hurt, so you saying that ironically makes it sound like I offended you.
Yeah Foolish Baseball doesn’t exist 😂 just because you don’t know another baseball journalist that produces similar work doesn’t mean none exist. It’s just an argument from ignorance
Yeah I don't see why some people can't give a compliment that is 100% positivity. They always have to make sure they let out some anger, even with their compliments. It's pretty sick actually.
Seriously, this should be considered for a Peabody or some other award for journalism. Find a flaw, point out the flaw, test the flaw as thoroughly as possible to see if it really is a flaw, & then share how you reached your conclusions so that others can verify the flaw.
Genuinely great work!
This is up there with Jomboy discovering the Astors trash can thing
Was that actually him ?
This channel keeps finding ways to get better. I’m nobody important, but I’m so impressed.
This might be the best breakdown ever on this channel, pretty eyeopening to something that nobody really pays attention to. It definitely looks like somebody on the Mets is misinterpreting the slide rule and passing it along to all the players
I really liked when he broke down the Astros garbage can fiasco
or that they just want to play like this. they dont need to have a misunderstanding of rules in order to play a certain way
I looked this up for the 2023 Giants cause I was curious about my team - the ex-Mets of the team stand out like a sore thumb. JD Davis and Conforto bail and jog off the basepaths. Flores slides early but he’s also pretty slow, so semi-competitive. He played in AZ between NYM and SFG.
The other quicker players from 2023 SFG were not Rhys-aggressive, but competitive. Sliding late and making sure the fielder had a contested line of sight as he catches the ball.
Even Brandon Crawford, as slow as he was at age 35-36, would be upright as long as he could with his hands going up as he slid. He definitely would know as a shortstop how much a runner could make a play difficult. Probably the best “dead to rights baserunner from first” the Giants had last year
And that’s right up Francisco‘s alley. He likes To chat with everybody and be their friend I actually saw him knocking dirt off another players uniform the more I watch this team in franchise the more I can’t stand them
@@jaydeatts Guys are busting ass down the line to first in every one of these, so saying it's a hustle or toughness issue like they don't care about the outcome seems off.
Fantastic breakdown, really seems like the Mets have a different philosophy for some reason
probably because of ruben tejada
Yeah it's called losing philosophy
It’s because they’re the LOL Mets.
Cuz of tejada and utley collision
@@mattiej2311they aren’t losing games because of this specifically 😂
This is PhD level baseball research. From here on out, to me, you will be Dr. Jomboy.
Dr. Jomboy out here with less plagiarism and more research than a Claudine Gay research paper.
@@deepzone31 Who?
@@pretzelhunt someone's salty that an African American Studies professor was the president of Harvard and acknowledges the nuance between free speech and harming other people's acceptance in the public sphere.
So they shoehorn her into UA-cam comments sections in an attempt to make themself feel better about not being a PhD who leads perhaps the most prestigious university in the world.
@@phillyphakename1255 not weird then why so many of those folks desire, at their core, to follow a despot, like 'deepzone31' does. It's sad, really.
Isn't she the one who refused to condemn students to call Israel the terrorists that they are😊😊
Incredible work, pretty awesome that there's archives of video for all these plays so that this is even... possible... to put together.
Jimmy once again making a video better than any segment on ESPN. True sports journalism and understanding of the sport.
As a Mets fan, this is pretty embarrassing. Jomboy I know for a fact this video is going to land on SOMEONES desk in the Mets organization. You should try and track every time McNeil(or every player on the Mets) slides to try and break a double play for the rest of the season and see if there’s a difference in outcome. If there is, demand to be hired as the new manager and take us to the World Series.
At least put him on the payroll. "Meet the Mets! , greet the Mets!"
This has Jolly written all over it
The Jomboy Effect is about to happen here
Yes. Need a follow-up video in October
@@jaydeatts I believe this entire video flew right over your head mate.
NO ONE said anything about sliding dirty, or breaking legs.... the point he's making is at least make it DIFFICULT to turn 2. Uncomfortable, within the rules.... ya know, like every other team.
No one said this was the reason they haven't won the world series lol, just that it's incredibly ODD for the Majors.💡
a rare case where the title actually completely undersells the import of the video, very excellent deep dive man, thanks
Your attention to detail is perfect for baseball fans.
This is an insane find. Great video
I truly respect your craft man! The work/build behind this breakdown is beautifully done!
I don’t really even like baseball, but I watched this whole video. I love a deep dive with somebody who knows the topic. Thank you for the video!
Wild that McNeil is never even close to the bag on every one of these plays. Even the slow bouncer to 3rd he's still 15ft off of second
yeah, regardless of what they've been told about sliding this is just lazy baserunning
@@BNeud1Basejogging
@@BNeud1The "Granny jog" base run.
I don't get it...seriously...what is this Mets franchise if they have players not going to try and hustle if they have the speed to do it with?
It's like he's giving up the moment he sees the possibility for a double play. That's not respectful, that's just weak.
Hilarious that that screnshot that people kept spamming to call McNeil a dirty player, he slid WAYYYYY early, I knew people were taking that out of context
If I wasn’t already subscribed, this video would have made me subscribe. The attention to detail, the research. This is art
Wow this is some of the best of UA-cam. You could not see this 10 years ago. Amazing.
This had to be the most interesting video I've watched from you. Thank you for being so good at your job and you deserve all of the attention you get for it!
As a Mariners fan, I was thinking, "I've never seen aggressive base slides like that..." and then you called it out. Thanks for saving me some time 😅
😅 😢
As a Mets fan what the fuck are we doing? I’ve definitely noticed guys not trying to break up double plays but I did not realise it was this consistent
It appears to me that your team has a lack of competitive spirit. I think it starts with coaching. If things don’t improve if I was GM I’d fire the staff and bring in coaches with competitive and winning attitudes.
Really appreciate throughout this thread the general reaction of Mets fans. So used to fanbases diving into defend the indefensible automatically, no matter what a player or team has done. If instead more fans would hold the teams accountable when they see things that are clearly wrong with the team, things might change. Drop the hammer on the Cohen and hold him accountable for the team culture, rather than the checkbook. If this doesn't change, nothing else will matter. It helps explain why spending a fortune last year did nothing.
Right? The amount of times I've seen someone run through the base lazily and casually walk off on the double play and not realised why it felt so wrong is melting my brain a little.
There's no effort to prevent it. At all. I can't even be mad at them I'm just disappointed as all hell. The lack of effort at the plate. The giving in once things clearly aren't going their way. The lack of hustle. The constant belief that it'll all just fall into place at the end of the season for a wildcard spot rather than trying to actually compete. And there isn't even a "we're not competing" excuse for most of it. There's a problem in this time and I don't even know where the root of it is.
@@ktbeatty all fans of the #2 NY teams are like that. Mets, Jets, Nets (wtf is with the rhyming names) Islanders, they're all bitter and cynical.
@@fredfuckstone914I'm glad the Nets are #2 again
This is brilliant. Jomboy changing the game with his observations and analyses, what a champ! Is there a section in the baseball hall of fame for commentators?
Great investigation. Thank you for being what most sports shows aren’t which is why I’m here and not watching the other shows.
I love the in depth breakdowns!
This is amazing. Thank you Jimmy for putting this together!
As a Mets fan, I gotta think that the Mets are skittish about breaking up double plays because of the Utley slide
they're skittish about something that happened 9 years ago?
exactly what I thought about too
@@poluticon yeah it's really not even the same team anymore as it was back then. They just wear the same colors
Also buck coached a dirty player in manny Machado and doesn’t want his team to do the same
Yeah that’s just a lame excuse. Utley hasn’t played in years. The rule was changed, and they don’t know how to follow it.
As a Mets fan, this is a fantastic investigation and I never noticed. Thanks, Jimmy! I hope we hear more on this and why they do it.
I think this is a great example representing how culture is so valuable to a team, and playing the game hard beats expecting to win cause you have talent
This is brilliant work, Jimmy. The next thing I would want to know is how this shows up in the team's statistics. I would assume that, because of this, the Mets are more likely to hit into double plays than other teams (although obviously there are lots of other factors that affect how often a team gives up a double play). Over an entire season, I wouldn't be surprised if this team-wide baserunning approach is causing the Mets to lose a handful of games that would otherwise be wins.
Thank you for your amazing brain Jimmy… this is brilliant problem solving.
If I was batting behind McNeil and he did this anytime I hit a groundball I’d be pissed
Lots of Pete Alonso getting hosed here for sure.
especially when you watch rhys hoskins run hard and slide and a guy like carlos santana is able to get to first safe😂😂
@@deepzone31not like it matters with Fat Pete running
@@tbone6032and fat Pete is still getting down to second base faster than 'Speedy' Jeff McNeil. McNeil just doesnt care and just trying to get a check and start fights for someone sliding legally just cause he dropped a ball lol
@@phinatic9591 bad take all around. Watch any part of McNeil’s game and hustle isn’t his problem, this is intentional. And you say he’s mad cus he “dropped a ball” except it was literally ruled on the transfer and he got the out
I think the idea behind running through the base is that you can be on a full sprint the entire time (obviously sliding will slow you down as you get to the base) and you might beat a bang-bang play and then you have the tag situation. I think I saw it work out for the Cardinals once last year. BUT that only works on really close plays and it requires a full sprint and not lollygagging to second base which is what most of the Metropolitans were doing in this.
This is exactly why. ☝🏻
I dont think the cardinals do this when a double play is possible. Both times I've seen the cardinals do it (Gorman against pirates and motter against dbacks) there have been two outs base loaded. This means that the runner at first will often be an after thought meaning bigger leads and bigger secondaries than normal. Also 2 outs allows for runners to start moving earlier when they can anticipate contact. All this to say it allows to get second base quicker than usual. Pair that with a lackadaisical throw and you get them beating it out and stealing a run.
On the other hand, with only one out the runner will likely not get to second as quickly due to either being held on by 1b or due to the fact that they have to identify ball down before they start running. That's why you break up slide rather than run through, bc unless defense botches throw the ball will always be there before the runner would ever have a chance to run through the base to beat the force.
If the Mets are teaching that it seems odd, not to mention the risk of runner interference with a fielder turning two by trying to run through the base and possibly contacting a fielder.
@@nathantomerlin1123 yep, perfect. it makes sense with two outs, it makes no sense when a DP is possible. if anything, i think the organization had to have misunderstood a rules brief or they made a specific policy change to protect the players from injury and they're using this to try to cover for it now.
@@cnking27 OK, I thought I was going crazy seeing everybody comment that yeah this is what is taught to do on double plays to beat the force out at second. Like unless you've got ungodly speed I don't know how you possibly beat a double play turn standing up/running through the bag on a standard ground ball. I agree there has to be some directive in the organization that is calling for standing up rather than doing the standard break up slide.
@@nathantomerlin1123 it makes no sense because they aren't running fast on half of these, either. The play where the guy on first would be fast enough to beat a throw to second, while the person covering second could get a throw to first fast enough to beat the runner there, is like, so unique it would be difficult to even set up. It would be incredibly dumb to change how your players play based on that. I also don't think it's just a lot of guys on one team just happen not to care about breaking up double plays either, like a lot of comments are saying. IDK why they're being told to do it but it's pretty clear that they are.
This is a phenomenal bit of journalism in a format that is educational and entertaining
Oh my God as a long time met fan this is unbelievable
Jomboy, the most trusted journalist in America!
You didn't need to do him dirty by setting the bar so low, man
McNeil giving up early on double play balls is classic Mets mentality. A losing mentality.
Go Yankees 💪🏻
As a Mets fan, i agree 😔
“I don’t know what’s going on in Queen’s” should be their slogan
This is a brilliant piece of investigative sports journalism. Thanks as always Jomboy!
Thank you! Great provisional breakdown
McNeil throwing games for Ohtani's translator
Appreciate the effort in putting this together. Amazing breakdown!
Great analysis. Not much of a baseball fan anymore, but love watching these breakdowns.
Excellent work! As a huge Mets fan their passive playstyle has bothered me for a while but I couldn’t truly break down exactly what I meant by it. I was yelling at my TV at Lindor during the game because a slide there could go a long way since the play at first was so close. I’ll keep an eye open for them but I know there are more gritty type plays that the Mets continually acquiesce to which hurts my soul, too.
Oh! Things like getting out of the way for the catcher, too. They basically hold the door for them sometimes to get their teammates out on pickoffs and caught stealing.
This is probably the best baseball information I've ever seen. Incredible work.
With regards to the "run through the bag so they have to tag you" strategy, I think I can offer some clarification (using physics WOO!). They're not hoping the fielder doesn't step on the bag; they're telling the runner to stay on his feet and keep running, because it's FASTER than sliding. Sliding does two things: It makes you harder to tag, and it helps you STOP on the bag. The trade-off is that you stop using your legs to propel yourself forward, so you're later actually getting to the base. The fastest way to get to the bag is to haul ass and stay on your feet, sprinting right through the bag (just like at first).
Then the second part is that if you DO get to the bag before the ball gets to the fielder stepping on the base, they won't get the force, meaning it's a time play. You'd use this strategy when there's one out, so a double play ends the inning, and the runner was already coming home on contact. So, if you successfully beat the throw to second, the run counts, even if they throw it to first and then get it back for the tag-out double play. That's the strategy.
It's a marginal play, but if you've got a runner on third with one out, and it's going to be a close play at second, you just might end up stealing a run. So, I'd say it does make sense, but only in that edge case. All the other examples are just bad baseball.
The problem is though that they look like they are not hustling like a runner that would go past first. They just look like they give up halfway through. The logic is there, but their execution just looks like they don't understand the assignment and reasoning.
@@zanon3362 yeah, for the running through strategy they should be going full bore.
That's what I thought the announcer meant as well, even if it might not have been what the player was actually doing. The announcer only had the context of a runner not sliding into the bag, and "The Mets don't know the rule" seems like a pretty unlikely explanation if you haven't done a deep dive like in this video.
🤓
This also works with 2 outs if they go for a force at 2nd (or 3rd, though obviously that's even less frequent)
Pete Rose is yelling at his phone, watching this video. 😂😂😂
And Ray Fosse (RIP) somewhere on a cloud shaking his head.
And hooking up with a 13 yr old
That's because he lost money on the game through DraftKings...
@@yeahyeahbutnah🤯
Nah, he couldn’t even finish this video. He threw his phone 45 seconds in.
"I don't know what's going on in queens" lol
This is…. absolutely fascinating.
Love this level of analysis
The Mets' clubhouse guy announced lower clubhouse dues if the players keep a clean uniform!
Don't you dare put the belt in the bag, we get charged 5 bucks per belt by the laundry company!
I remember college...
Mets equipment manager snuck a clause in his contract about no unnecessary stains. If you try and break up a tailor made double play, you're washing your own pants.
Please produce 1000 more videos like this! LOVE IT!
Wow, I'm equally impressed with your discovery and the effort put forth to try to disprove your discovery. Master class.
Seeing this kind of reinforced the comments Pham said about the team and their hustle. As a Mets fan this explains so much. I hope someone fron the Mets see this and is embarrassed and causes a change.
This is the Jomboy content I live for. Amazing.
This is incredible! This is some serious scouting for teams playing the Mets.
Mets dont have a great history of double plays being broken up
I’m assuming you’re also referring to the 1973 NLCS between the Reds and Mets when Pete Rose barreled into Bud Harrelson.
@@cityhawk or 2015 NLDS when utley broke tejadas leg and ended his career
The Mets don’t have a great history
Thank you Dr.Jomboy
Great vid! Love when you break things down that I would never see or understand otherwise!
The supercuts of about a dozen double plays successfully being turned when McNeil was running, and then not being turned when Hoskins was running, is insane. Is there a statistic to track the rate of double play conversions as a first-base runner on groundballs, maybe in Stathead or something? Curious if the real difference between them is actually that large, and if it gets incorporated into stats like WAR.
it does not get tracked for WAR, and wrt to whether it's tracked at all: if it is at all it's purely an in-house stat for some teams
I remember either last season or 2022, there was a double play in a Cardinals game where Cardinals player didn't slide going into second base on a double play attempt and they had to go back and tag the Cardinals player. They talked about what the strategy was.
Yeah, I think it was edman. It scored a run too iirc. No way I'm going to find it though.
All well and good. Irrelevant to whats happening here though.
Yeah I remember that specific play and commented about it as well. It does make sense when you’re not thinking about it on the fly during a podcast. It’s a smart strategy if the scenario is right.
I don't understand. They had to tag the player because they missed stepping on second base?
@@MrPaperboat7 it’s if the defensive player missed tagging the base or didn’t receive the ball before the base runner got there.
The most underrated sports journalist. well done sir. I love your work.
This is your best work yet jimbo
This is the best baseball video I've ever seen on this platform!!
Crazy. I've watched probably 90% of all Mets pitches for years now & it's never even occurred to me outside of a few times you just think "hey, he slid pretty early there." Thanks for the work, Jomboy. I continue to be amazed at all the new ways the Mets can embarrass themselves...and me by extension!
Same here... ive definitely felt the lack of hustle and giving em the play at times and have been frustrated with it, but i, in no way, thought it was this blatant & often
Now, am i surprised? Sadly, I'm not
LFGM 😔
The new strategy is this: You’re supposed to run full speed through second in an effort to beat the force play thereby turning a double play into a force play at first only. If a runner is at third he will score before a rundown can get the second out. So an inning ending double play turns into a run scoring play. Also all kinds of other outcomes are possible. It only makes sense with one out and usually with a runner on third. Lindor did not execute it well in this example because it looks like he forgot.
Yeah I remember this became the meta during last year’s playoffs.
ok so what the fuck are mcneil and half of the other mets doing in these videos? is veering off or sliding early to get out of 2B sightline part of this strategy? Because as a baseball fan, my team doing this would make me think they just don't care
Also works with 2 outs if they try to get the force at second!
@@kfn93 that's a separate issue. You can relax as it only came up on Lindor not sliding.
I'd be interested to see a play where a runner beat the throw running through second and forced the situation described above. It seems like sliding to break up double play is more likely to result in runner at first being safe due to poor throw or no throw as opposed to requiring runner going into second to beat the throw
There was a situation last year during a Yankees game where I believe Florial ran through the base and it somehow worked out for them. I remember the YES broadcast talking about it for a bit right after
Great stuff. Thank you for your service.
Simply incredible stuff
They should turn breaking up a DP into a base running stat.
considering that contact is almost non existent within the rules nowadays when it comes to breaking up double plays, I think it would be way too tedious trying to determine what counts as a broken up double play. Cause sometimes a infielder might just have a terrible throw to first without it being necessarily affected by the runner sliding into second base. It's way too subjective of a stat to actually give anything important in terms of information.
10:30 Reds fan here- I feel like I've seen Elly de la Cruz attempt the same thing at 2B, the idea is if you go full speed and run through the bag when it's a close play rather than sliding you might beat the force out so the middle infielder has to make a tag. that extra delay can help a runner be safe at first or allow all sorts of chaos if the defense doesn't play the situation correctly. Jogging and ducking out of the way like McNeil is a bit too far tho imo.
crazy how one bad slide in the past make a whole team stop doing it 😭
Aaaaaand now I can't stop playing with Baseball Savant. I hope you're happy.
Thank you for all your hard work 🥰
It seems like they Tejada/Utley incident's aftermath has trickled down in the Mets system. It's losing baseball
Utley’s slide was dirty AND illegal, broke Tejada’s leg, and mlb did nothing. The mets probably think if they did the same, THEY would get in trouble. This is what happens when mlb takes sides.
@@rumblehat4357 this incident is why they changed the rule…
Chase Utley made the Mets polite sliders.
a corn bot copied your comment and got more likes than you :(
@@quillclockThanks I just saw that. That's lame.
Utley played like that with the Phillies all the time, it was just an unfortunate injury
Super glad baseball and this series is back! Excited to see the topics you explore and share. I appreciate the analysis and opinions you highlight. Really great work!
when vid hits about the 14:00 minute mark you can see the player turning the play, they aren't even a bit worried about a slide coming in from the mets that it seems they are making almost nonchalant throws or throwing seeds right on target to show off their arms, this vid is great like so many are from Jomboy!!
This is an awesome video. Just great analysis. The way you dig further into plays and strategy overall is so much fun for a baseball fan.
"i watched 160..."
Bro. You did WHAT
Edit: YOU COLOR CODED IT!?!?
I love you Jomboy.
THIS! THIS is what I'm here for! BRAVO!
This was an awesome breakdown Jimmy!
This video is actually amazing. I need more of whatever you call this.
Not for nothing, but this is the kind of analysis and interaction (leaving the link so we can check it out) that made me loyal to Jomboy Media. It's what you don't find anywhere else. Headed over to watch the full video now. Thanks for this.
Geez bro. I had to take time out of my busy day to explain this to you. Been playing baseball since I was born, all the way through CSULB. Now I coach. So I have seen and played a lot of ball in 62 years. This has been my strategy FOREVER. It looks funny, until it WORKS. And it works. We have won lots of games this way. Especially in the last inning of the game.
i tell my players when they are on first, with a man on third and less than two outs, to RUN RIGHT THROUGH SECOND BASE. Do not slide if it appears that sliding will make you out. It is FASTER to stay upright and run through second (as you would first base). This is in hopes of BEATHING THE BALL on the play to second base so that you are safe. (Not as you suggested in case the 2nd baseman/shortstop misses the bag).
In your video, the Mets were actually doing this wrong. They need to RUN HARD THROUGH second base The Mets slow down, which defeats the whole purpose of my strategy.
If my runner can beat that throw to second and the ONLY way to beat the throw to second is by staying upright and running THROUGH the bag, then that is what I teach. if my man on first can beat the throw to second, then the defense has to tag my runner once my runner goes past and beyond second base into left field. This is a legal play, because that runner is not doing so to avoid a tag. He is allowed to run straight and PAST second base. Doing so allows my runner on third to score a run. The runner on third will always reach the plate before the runner going from first to second is finally tagged out by the defense. Especially if the defense "turns two" and throws the ball to first after the runner is safe at second.
I love your show bro. Thank you for a lot of laughs. I can tell you work hard and I hope it pays off for you.
Paul
thanks this cleared this up so much for me
A key note to add to this is Rubén Tejada’s broken leg. That play may have impacted the Mets into wanting that play to be removed from the game.
Hold up... How deep does this go?? How far back does this go with the Mets? Does it change from before their current manager started, or what?
And how can people that get paid so much money get this rule wrong. It blows my mind that they see pretty much every other team acting differently and they're not checking on that to improve their game??
They're smarter than every other person in the league...duh.
A Mets fan on reddit said he did the same search for double plays going further back and he said their sliding was normal until around 2022. So for some reason it suddenly changed to this "polite" idea only a few years ago.
Great video and effort.
great breakdown, love this format