It's so hard to have a GOAT conversation in football, because it's impossible to have such an individual impact to win a game. Even looking at stats is hard to judge how good someone is, since as a quarterback for example, you're reliant on a line to block for you, receivers to get open and catch, and running backs to create pressure and force bad coverages, as well as the defense to get you the ball back. Other sports can compare individual efforts more easily (which I would still argue isn't the whole story), but football is just crazy to compare. As a saints fan, I look at the absolutely amazing quarterback held back by his team, Archie Manning. If the 'Aints would have been not shit, would he have had a chance to shine?
Watching the Super Bowl this past February, there was one play in overtime where Brock Purdy had a receiver open and could have throw a td to him, but Chris Jones pressured him and forced a throw away, thus allowing the Chiefs to march down and win with a TD. Or Trent McDuffie swatting down a Purdy pass in the fourth to force a FG and give the chiefs some time to answer. Does this mean that I think the defense carried Mahomes? Of course not. I’ll compare this to another sport, golf. An NFL defense is like the long game in golf, the ability to drive the ball 350 down the center, and hit a 6-iron to 15 ft, but an NFL offense is the short game, the ability to make that 15 ft birdie putt or get up and down for par. Most of the time, having a great defensive gives you the chance to win, while have that GOAT on offense gives you the ability to finish and close it. That’s why to me, the head of the offense, i.e. the QB, should be in conversation for the GOAT.
I think a big problem with this conversation is we always look at the end product. Like they had a top 10 defense this level offense. But what led to that ranking? Did the fact that Tom Brady had a super low salary for his superstar status allow for better defensive players? Where would the defenses be ranked before them. I feel like with players like Tom Brady and Mahomes can bring their team to a higher level because they’re pushing everyone. When you’re on a team in anything and your defacto leader\captain is putting in the effort and performing at a high level you want to match that.
This video and debate is insane.... 1. 2019 - 2023.when tom brady left new England the defense was ranked #1 thru #5 yet where are the championships hell just getting to playoffs? 2. Tom brady said 2 quiotes that fit so well.." what separates a great qb from a good qb is the ability to handle oressure on the biggest stage and under the brightest lights and win the game" " stats are for people who cant win games" 3. The job of the qb is to orchestrate an offense utilizing offensive weapons such as TE RB WR AND OL to move the ball downfield to score either a TD or to put FG kicker into range to kick a FG and to outscore the opponent ...there is no qb thats has done that job better than tom brady in THE REGULAR SEASON AND THE POST SEASON 4.TOM BRADY had the uniqueness of having a coach who was more interested in building his legacy and defensive genius that he truly left the offense to brady without the talent...brady in 18 seasons under center played with 4 probowlers on offense gronk got to NE in 2009..mathew slater..wes Welker and branch...thats it ...yet brady holds all passing records in regulars seasons and post seasons 5. Brady has 3 MVPS was 1rst qb to receive unanimous votes ( jackson being the other)...brady is also the only qb in NFL history to receive 15 seasons of MVP votes an NFL record his excellence is unmatched... 6. Tom brady had great arm talent he was just not a hot dogger he was all ways a fundamental thrower you can literally use his throwing style to teach qb how to throw...like rodgers said " tom hits every mechanical position when he throws"...tom brady may not have been a runner but his movement in the pocket is one of the best in the game.... 7. The media and fans all want to say what the best was and really because montana had 4 he was considered the goat but what bradshaw he had 4 as well...montana got the nod because he was clutch ...THE ONLY TIME THE DETERMINATION OF A " GOAT " GOT CHALLENGED WAS WHEN BRADY GOT 5...then it became you a goat you a goat everybody a goat goat....its supposed to not be just about excellence as a one off but continued excellence....its the players themselves that set the standard on who they think is the goat ..since the top 100 player csme about in 2011 tom brady has been number 1# 5 times...no one else has done that...matter of fact has not been out of top 10 but once at 14th...at some point the critics are really just haters 8. FEAR...greatness comes from your peers not wanting to go against you..and knowing they have to be great to beat you .i have heard players in mic up situations in the post season ...i have never heard them fear other qb the way they feared brady...not peyton ..not rodgers...not brees....brady was feared in the post season.." man we gonna put 40 on they ass" " we gonna have too thsts tom brady" SB 51 pats down by 25..." is was 4and 3 brady was getting off the field for the punting team i said something to tom and i should have kept my mouth shut..next thing i knew he told punting team get off field called his offense back on snd proceeded to convert the 4 and 3 and went down the field and score"" we got next possession and fumbled and tom scored again and i was sitting on bench with my head in my hands thinking please dont let me be the cause of us losing this game" von miller divisional round in 2022 bucs vs rams down by 24...brady scored 24 unanswered points to tie game with less than s minute..." do you think we are going to win this game ? Yeah because we got tom brady " ty law and Harrison pats defense SB 38.." Do you think we are gonna win ? Man dude i dont know not with that dude over there" panthers defenders talking sbout brady SB 38...." msn i know whats getting ready to happen i not watching " chiefs offense 2018 AFC in OT when brady converted 3 3rd and longs and won game...GREATNESS IS THE HEALTHY FEAR YOUR PEERS FEEL FOR YOU
I can appreciate the nuance you're bringing to the GOAT conversation. However, i'd argue that big ben an exqmple that fits the mold of the hypothetical situation you're posing; a talented qb with a good head coach and good suppprting team and defense around him. in fact, i'd argue that he consistantly had defenses that were just as good if not even better than mahomes, brady, or montana. Yet, after a nearly 2 decade career ben didn't manage to match the championships totals that they all won, and even lost some playoff games to brady and mahomes. So there does seem to be something special about montana, brady, and mahomes that elevates them over almost everyone else to ever play the position.
I would honestly add Baker Mayfield to the conversation. He was drafted by a Browns team that had been on a QB carousel for their entire existence, that hadn't had a winning season in a decade, that had won exactly 1 game in the previous 2 years. And he led them to 7 1/2 times as many wins in half the time. Then he followed it up 2 years later with a playoff berth and a dismantling of Pittsburgh in the Wild Card. Later, when traded to LA, he led the Rams on a game winning touchdown drive, just two days after learning the entire playbook. And now he led the Bucs to a division title the year after they lost Tom Brady to retirement. Everyone is saying the Falcons are the team to beat in the NFC South with Kirk Cousins but I say it's the Bucs.
That's why I hate using championships as a measure of who's the greatest player. Now if you want to ask who has had the greatest career of all time, it's easily Tom Brady. But greatest player? I look at stats with the lens of era because it's IMO the measure that they have the most individual control over. So my #1 is Dan Marino because he put up numbers in the 80's that would be considered good to elite numbers in the 2000's and 2010's. My number 2 is Drew Brees. Look at the list of players with 5000 yards in a season. Dan Marino is on there in the 80's then Drew Brees is on there 5 times. No other player is on there more than twice (Brady and Mahomes). I concede there are issues with this measures as well as it doesn't account for a quarterback's ability in the clutch nor does it account for the fact that a good quarterback knows sometimes it's smarter to hand the ball off to the RB rather than try to throw it again. But I would argue that those things it can't account for is less than the things that "championships" can't account for which is a whole entire team around them. That said it's very difficult to measure because it's not only a team sport but it has the largest teams (including bench) of any team sport I know of and it's probably the team sport where your individual success is most dependent upon the people around you. Put Lebron James or prime Jordan on a D3 college basketball team and have them take on an NBA team and they of course lose but you would still see them show out. Put Messi on a D3 college soccer team and have them take on a UEFA champions league level team and they of course lose but everyone would still notice Messi. But put Prime Marino, Prime Brady, Prime Bees or even Mahomes on a D3 college football team and have them play against an NFL team you wouldn't even notice how good the QB is. I remember watching Josh Allen in college take on the Iowa Hawkeyes and I would have laughed at you if you had told me that he would be a top 5 NFL quarterback. I simply could not notice his talent because his teammates on offense were so outclassed by the Iowa defense.
You're missing the elephant in the room here: the 2020 Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Tom Brady is unquestionably the GOAT because there is nothing, not teammates, not coaches, not even the name in the endzone, in common between his first and last titles... besides him. Now, if you want to get into the difference between who is the greatest _player_ of all time (Tom Brady, and it isn't up for debate), vs. who is the greatest _quarterback_ of all time, that's an interesting discussion. But it's also one you need to look a lot further than three candidates to have. Peyton Manning, John Elway, Otto Graham, and even Brett Favre all have comparable cases to be made compared to Montana. Oh, and then there's Marino. Basically Mahomes- or Rodgers-level arm talent way back in the 70s, but often gets overlooked because he never won a Super Bowl.
Except the 2020 Buccaneers check every part of the anatomy, top 10 defense, good head coach, surrounded by high quality players, he even brought Gronk Back
Dan Marino is still the greatest PASSING QB. Brady would succeed in any genre. We saw him win in multiple eras. He's like Tim Duncan that way. Would Mahomes even survive playing in the 80s? No QB bailouts. No helmet-to-helmet penalties. Limited PI and defensive holding fouls. Headhunting defenders were encouraged, not just permitted.
Why wouldn’t he? You act like humans were built differently 40 years ago, lol. It’s all the same, except players were lighter & slower back then. We’ve already seen his drive & he played with a high ankle sprain through 3 games. Look at the Ravens game, where they were straight punching him in the face & putting helmets right into him. He was unfazed. He’s the size of a linebacker & he’d be faster than everyone back then, except the corners & safties. And with no modern 2 high, defensive shells to stop him? He’d be a freaking monster.
It's so hard to have a GOAT conversation in football, because it's impossible to have such an individual impact to win a game. Even looking at stats is hard to judge how good someone is, since as a quarterback for example, you're reliant on a line to block for you, receivers to get open and catch, and running backs to create pressure and force bad coverages, as well as the defense to get you the ball back. Other sports can compare individual efforts more easily (which I would still argue isn't the whole story), but football is just crazy to compare. As a saints fan, I look at the absolutely amazing quarterback held back by his team, Archie Manning. If the 'Aints would have been not shit, would he have had a chance to shine?
great vid but saying "tareek hill" is craaazy (8:40)
Watching the Super Bowl this past February, there was one play in overtime where Brock Purdy had a receiver open and could have throw a td to him, but Chris Jones pressured him and forced a throw away, thus allowing the Chiefs to march down and win with a TD. Or Trent McDuffie swatting down a Purdy pass in the fourth to force a FG and give the chiefs some time to answer. Does this mean that I think the defense carried Mahomes? Of course not. I’ll compare this to another sport, golf. An NFL defense is like the long game in golf, the ability to drive the ball 350 down the center, and hit a 6-iron to 15 ft, but an NFL offense is the short game, the ability to make that 15 ft birdie putt or get up and down for par. Most of the time, having a great defensive gives you the chance to win, while have that GOAT on offense gives you the ability to finish and close it. That’s why to me, the head of the offense, i.e. the QB, should be in conversation for the GOAT.
Mahomes already proved he can carry mediocre defenses to 2 sb wins. HIs 2022 team gave up the most points in sb history for a winning squad
I think a big problem with this conversation is we always look at the end product. Like they had a top 10 defense this level offense. But what led to that ranking? Did the fact that Tom Brady had a super low salary for his superstar status allow for better defensive players? Where would the defenses be ranked before them. I feel like with players like Tom Brady and Mahomes can bring their team to a higher level because they’re pushing everyone. When you’re on a team in anything and your defacto leader\captain is putting in the effort and performing at a high level you want to match that.
The Dolphins were not undefeated that year. Just wanted to put that out there.
This video and debate is insane....
1. 2019 - 2023.when tom brady left new England the defense was ranked #1 thru #5 yet where are the championships hell just getting to playoffs?
2. Tom brady said 2 quiotes that fit so well.." what separates a great qb from a good qb is the ability to handle oressure on the biggest stage and under the brightest lights and win the game" " stats are for people who cant win games"
3. The job of the qb is to orchestrate an offense utilizing offensive weapons such as TE RB WR AND OL to move the ball downfield to score either a TD or to put FG kicker into range to kick a FG and to outscore the opponent ...there is no qb thats has done that job better than tom brady in THE REGULAR SEASON AND THE POST SEASON
4.TOM BRADY had the uniqueness of having a coach who was more interested in building his legacy and defensive genius that he truly left the offense to brady without the talent...brady in 18 seasons under center played with 4 probowlers on offense gronk got to NE in 2009..mathew slater..wes Welker and branch...thats it ...yet brady holds all passing records in regulars seasons and post seasons
5. Brady has 3 MVPS was 1rst qb to receive unanimous votes ( jackson being the other)...brady is also the only qb in NFL history to receive 15 seasons of MVP votes an NFL record his excellence is unmatched...
6. Tom brady had great arm talent he was just not a hot dogger he was all ways a fundamental thrower you can literally use his throwing style to teach qb how to throw...like rodgers said " tom hits every mechanical position when he throws"...tom brady may not have been a runner but his movement in the pocket is one of the best in the game....
7. The media and fans all want to say what the best was and really because montana had 4 he was considered the goat but what bradshaw he had 4 as well...montana got the nod because he was clutch ...THE ONLY TIME THE DETERMINATION OF A " GOAT " GOT CHALLENGED WAS WHEN BRADY GOT 5...then it became you a goat you a goat everybody a goat goat....its supposed to not be just about excellence as a one off but continued excellence....its the players themselves that set the standard on who they think is the goat ..since the top 100 player csme about in 2011 tom brady has been number 1# 5 times...no one else has done that...matter of fact has not been out of top 10 but once at 14th...at some point the critics are really just haters
8. FEAR...greatness comes from your peers not wanting to go against you..and knowing they have to be great to beat you .i have heard players in mic up situations in the post season ...i have never heard them fear other qb the way they feared brady...not peyton ..not rodgers...not brees....brady was feared in the post season.." man we gonna put 40 on they ass" " we gonna have too thsts tom brady" SB 51 pats down by 25..." is was 4and 3 brady was getting off the field for the punting team i said something to tom and i should have kept my mouth shut..next thing i knew he told punting team get off field called his offense back on snd proceeded to convert the 4 and 3 and went down the field and score"" we got next possession and fumbled and tom scored again and i was sitting on bench with my head in my hands thinking please dont let me be the cause of us losing this game" von miller divisional round in 2022 bucs vs rams down by 24...brady scored 24 unanswered points to tie game with less than s minute..." do you think we are going to win this game ? Yeah because we got tom brady " ty law and Harrison pats defense SB 38.." Do you think we are gonna win ? Man dude i dont know not with that dude over there" panthers defenders talking sbout brady SB 38...." msn i know whats getting ready to happen i not watching " chiefs offense 2018 AFC in OT when brady converted 3 3rd and longs and won game...GREATNESS IS THE HEALTHY FEAR YOUR PEERS FEEL FOR YOU
i also think that it is laughable to say there is a debate on QB GOAT - Brady is the clear cut GOAT
the only thing that is laughable is that statement@@bwen18
I can appreciate the nuance you're bringing to the GOAT conversation. However, i'd argue that big ben an exqmple that fits the mold of the hypothetical situation you're posing; a talented qb with a good head coach and good suppprting team and defense around him. in fact, i'd argue that he consistantly had defenses that were just as good if not even better than mahomes, brady, or montana. Yet, after a nearly 2 decade career ben didn't manage to match the championships totals that they all won, and even lost some playoff games to brady and mahomes. So there does seem to be something special about montana, brady, and mahomes that elevates them over almost everyone else to ever play the position.
i found u looking for punting tips and now i found goated content
Punting content will always be my bread and butter
LINDERBAUM
I would honestly add Baker Mayfield to the conversation.
He was drafted by a Browns team that had been on a QB carousel for their entire existence, that hadn't had a winning season in a decade, that had won exactly 1 game in the previous 2 years. And he led them to 7 1/2 times as many wins in half the time. Then he followed it up 2 years later with a playoff berth and a dismantling of Pittsburgh in the Wild Card. Later, when traded to LA, he led the Rams on a game winning touchdown drive, just two days after learning the entire playbook. And now he led the Bucs to a division title the year after they lost Tom Brady to retirement. Everyone is saying the Falcons are the team to beat in the NFC South with Kirk Cousins but I say it's the Bucs.
I’m excited for this one!
Definitely an interesting conversation.
Probably gonna be Mahomes by the end of his career
How about as of October 25th 2024
Whose on your Goat Mountain?
Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, John Elway, Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning.....
Dont tell m that youve seen QBs that "refuse" to be carried and have John Elway on the screen
There was no correlation with what I was saying and the clip playing in that part
That's why I hate using championships as a measure of who's the greatest player. Now if you want to ask who has had the greatest career of all time, it's easily Tom Brady. But greatest player? I look at stats with the lens of era because it's IMO the measure that they have the most individual control over. So my #1 is Dan Marino because he put up numbers in the 80's that would be considered good to elite numbers in the 2000's and 2010's. My number 2 is Drew Brees. Look at the list of players with 5000 yards in a season. Dan Marino is on there in the 80's then Drew Brees is on there 5 times. No other player is on there more than twice (Brady and Mahomes). I concede there are issues with this measures as well as it doesn't account for a quarterback's ability in the clutch nor does it account for the fact that a good quarterback knows sometimes it's smarter to hand the ball off to the RB rather than try to throw it again. But I would argue that those things it can't account for is less than the things that "championships" can't account for which is a whole entire team around them. That said it's very difficult to measure because it's not only a team sport but it has the largest teams (including bench) of any team sport I know of and it's probably the team sport where your individual success is most dependent upon the people around you. Put Lebron James or prime Jordan on a D3 college basketball team and have them take on an NBA team and they of course lose but you would still see them show out. Put Messi on a D3 college soccer team and have them take on a UEFA champions league level team and they of course lose but everyone would still notice Messi. But put Prime Marino, Prime Brady, Prime Bees or even Mahomes on a D3 college football team and have them play against an NFL team you wouldn't even notice how good the QB is. I remember watching Josh Allen in college take on the Iowa Hawkeyes and I would have laughed at you if you had told me that he would be a top 5 NFL quarterback. I simply could not notice his talent because his teammates on offense were so outclassed by the Iowa defense.
You're missing the elephant in the room here: the 2020 Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Tom Brady is unquestionably the GOAT because there is nothing, not teammates, not coaches, not even the name in the endzone, in common between his first and last titles... besides him.
Now, if you want to get into the difference between who is the greatest _player_ of all time (Tom Brady, and it isn't up for debate), vs. who is the greatest _quarterback_ of all time, that's an interesting discussion. But it's also one you need to look a lot further than three candidates to have. Peyton Manning, John Elway, Otto Graham, and even Brett Favre all have comparable cases to be made compared to Montana. Oh, and then there's Marino. Basically Mahomes- or Rodgers-level arm talent way back in the 70s, but often gets overlooked because he never won a Super Bowl.
Except the 2020 Buccaneers check every part of the anatomy, top 10 defense, good head coach, surrounded by high quality players, he even brought Gronk Back
Brady chose that team specifically because they were loaded. It’s not like he was traded to some shit team, lol.
Dan Marino is still the greatest PASSING QB.
Brady would succeed in any genre. We saw him win in multiple eras. He's like Tim Duncan that way.
Would Mahomes even survive playing in the 80s?
No QB bailouts.
No helmet-to-helmet penalties.
Limited PI and defensive holding fouls.
Headhunting defenders were encouraged, not just permitted.
Mahomes would be unstoppable then
Why wouldn’t he? You act like humans were built differently 40 years ago, lol. It’s all the same, except players were lighter & slower back then.
We’ve already seen his drive & he played with a high ankle sprain through 3 games. Look at the Ravens game, where they were straight punching him in the face & putting helmets right into him. He was unfazed. He’s the size of a linebacker & he’d be faster than everyone back then, except the corners & safties. And with no modern 2 high, defensive shells to stop him? He’d be a freaking monster.
Nice
13:02 goat like anatomy?
Analogy?
TB = Lance Armstrong.
You clearly have no idea what a man on steroids looks like.
hi
GOAT athlete on a team sport, pathetic. Michael Phelps set his first WORLD RECORD at 15 yrs 9 months. What was your GOAT doing at that age?
Learning how to drive.
For me it’s Montana, then Brady. Mahomes doesn’t make it into the conversation
Mahomes hasn't finished his career so I don't blame you. But Mahomes is still the BOAT
Yet, if your team could get him, you’d be over the goddamned moon..