Garak is my favorite DS9 character, because he's obviously a spy, everyone knows he's a spy, and he openly talks about being a spy, and then whenever anyone asks him about being a spy he goes, "whoa, hey, who said anything about me being a spy?" I have to imagine him reacting the exact same way if anyone ever directly asked him if he and Bashir were a couple, just making the lowest possible effort to deny it without any attempt at actually making it convincing.
That makes it pretty canon because garak, well he doesnt admit direct but in you have to deduce through his lies. And he is very tsundere. "Its not like i missed you or anything doctor, baka"
We also have to note how some of the writers helped! In one of the middle seasons we learn that Cardasians (Garaks people) flirt by arguing. And Garak and Bashir spend lunches together arguing about literature from their cultures. (You could say sharing their culture and history)
But they don’t argue, they debate. They have intellectual/cultural disagreements. We see how Cardassian courtship arguments work in the episode about it, it’s absolutely nothing like how Garak and Bashir interact. If anything, Garak comes closer to “cardassian flirting” with O’Brien in the episode Empok Nor. Except he tries to kill him.
Whoopi Goldberg likely wouldn't be what she is today without Nichelle Nichols. She watched Star Trek (ToS) as a child and said later that she ran to her mother to inform her that "There's a black lady on TV and she ain't no maid!" Nichelle Nichols is why Whoopi became an actor. It's amazing how far Star Trek's reach has been throughout history and how it's affected many people.
Have you seen Nichelle Nichols and Whoopi Goldberg whenever they greet each other. They kiss like family, like raised together blood related family. It's beautiful, heart-warming, love.
@@Lupin788 Watch the interviews with Nichelle Nichols. The story has some small variations each time she tells it, part of the old oral tradition of performance and mythmaking. But the core, that is undoubtedly true. He asked her not to leave. She had been offered a role on stage, returning to her glorious days as a dancer and actor for a live audience, to a place she felt comfortable and knew her talents would be recognized. She gave that up to be Lt Uhura. And Roddenberry, in acknowledgement of MLK, I think as a thank you as well, wrote a story in which we discover that Lt. Uhura is 4th in command of the Enterprise. She, a black women in the 60s, but also a black woman in the future, takes command of the ship. That is powerful, even today.
The first. Black woman astronaut, Mae Jemisen, also grew up watching Nichelle Nichols, and credits her with her chosen profession! She appeared in an episode of The Next Generation, too.
And that was one time Whoopi's attempt to make the show gayer actually worked. Her original line explaining love started "when a man and a woman..." but Whoopi argued that Trek should be beyond that and got it switched to "when two people..."
@@Eviltwin531 "Only two?" - confused Tenctonites and other species that are not binary reproductive. also, is that biting line a callback to "The Doctor's Wife", when Idris says, "I like biting. It's like kissing, only there's a winner!" Mad Bitey Lady. heh.
@@thcollegestudent so so heartbreaking. the way datas voice is so quiet when he and lal are talking the last time, specifically when he asks what shes feeling.. i cry like a baby every time urgh
I legitimately cried when listening to Siddig and Robinson read that fanfic. DS9 is the show I love more than any other piece of Star Trek, and I wish it got all the support it deserved from its producers.
How can you say “obviously,” when Berman has said nothing to support that? I agree that there should have been queer representation on 90’s Trek, and lament he was against it. But he has also claimed he was constantly concerned about getting cancelled. Did he make the wrong choice? Probably. But was he homophonic? I don’t know. How could you know? That all said, if there are stories I don’t know about, please enlighten me. I’m always willing to learn!
I think it's fair to say that Berman wasn't JUST against LGBTQ characters but was also a raging misogynist. One of the biggest reasons Terry Farrell who played jadzia left the show was because of repeated sexual harassment at the hands of Rick Berman. I'll give him credit where credit is due, he managed to not only keep star trek on the air but lead it to its greatest success. But, that doesn't mean he was a good person or even someone who should've been at the helm of a series focused so heavily on diversity. All that being said Star Trek Discovery was awful. NOT because of its wokeness the way the troglodyte conservatives would have us believe. Rather, it was the poor writing and butchery of the canonical species development, like the way the klingons looked.
So you have evidence for an entirely different claim but no the one you got asked to back up? I agree, nothing has been put forward to make Berman "obviously a homophobe". He very well could be. But fear of cancellation explains away all the same choices.@@ryanwells4375
Agreed! I like to imagine he and Ezri parted as friends and maybe if they wanted kids she was their surrogate or something. Or just lifelong friends and Garashir are child free.
That reminds me! It may sound off the wall, but I've got a theory that Riker and Quark are fwb or something (based on a conversation they had and a gesture that Quark made in it that was. Very flirtatious for a Ferengi)
This makes me think of a really old Gene Roddenberry interview I listened to where he talks about the pilot for Star Trek the original series, which starred Nimoy as Spock and Rodenberry's future wife as the second in command of enterprise. Apparently he was told he couldn't have BOTH an alien officer AND a female officer, and had to pick one. "So I cast the man and married the woman, because I couldn't legally do it the other way around."
As a teen I wrote Majel Barret Roddenberry a fan letter lamenting the lack of queer people on Star Trek, and she wrote me back to say she agreed and sadly had no control over writing or creative choices. It was a heartbreaking response (coupled with a fabulous 8x10)
@@hollydowns2279 Not everywhere in the world, and in many places where it *is* legal there are still millions of people fighting to make it illegal again.
5:12 Even as a kid I interpreted Julian's response to Garak's hands on his shoulders as one of attraction. Swap Julian out for a woman, leaving the reactions the same, and there'd never've been a question that it was a "will they won't they". Add in the O'Brian love triangle (love-parallelogram?), and it was basically Ross/Rachel.
as I understand it, Gene was also very pro fan fic writers and slashers. He was happy to have them write Kirk/Spock, but only had pet peeves about zippers being apart of Starfleet pants! (and not about the gay sex)
There was a lovely bit where one of the biggest, best OG slash artists -- Jean Kluge -- used to get periodic C&D letters from Paramount, and she would send them a xerox of a signed letter that GR sent her where he thanked her and the fan community and saying that in his opinion, the fans could do whatever they wanted for keeping the show alive in the 70s. They always went away after that. :-)
A part has to be that kirk/spocjk shippers were likely an integral part that the franchise stayed afloat. He knew the fans and i gues that is part why he valued that. That he was then like, i may as well should have them romantic partners is nice thou.
I didn’t know the guy until I watched this but for now on anytime I hear a problem with Star Trek he’s immediately going to pop into my head exactly like that
@@DangerNoodleReads He is the reason for any and every sucky decision on trek after Roddenberry died. And even before that. Seven of 9 for eye candy? Berman. Kes and neelix creepy relationship? Berman. The decision to make the single gendered species played by women In tng? Berman. We can't blame him for chakotay and the fake Indian schtik. But you know who we can blame? Berman.
I absolutely adored Robinson's portrayal of Garak. The only reason I'm glad they didn't give him a romantic relationship with Bashir is because then they would have killed him off right away. I love DSN and I couldn't bear it without Garak. Absolutely the wittiest character in all of Star Trek.
Hollywood still isn't ready for a gay character with a happy ending. I guess they've bumped us up from pure villains to side character besties but protagonist? No thank you sir.
It's important to note that Garak never reciprocated Ziyal's feelings for him. He only saw himself as a mentor and friend to her, and never even really approved of her romantic feelings, but was sympathetic to those feelings.
And can you imagine if damar killed bashir, he was forgiving killing her, but imagine bashir, And the effort not to have any chemistry whatever with zival other than strictly mentor/friend. I mean they can have massages and it still, zero chemestry whatever.
i thought he was very aware that she's the daughter of his most prominent enemy and distanced himself because he always suspected she was a trap set by Dukat.
@@PyrokineticFire1 Garak tended to relish needling Dukat. He did suspect as much in For the Cause, but I figure Dukat would have found a friendship with Garak just as bad as something more. So, if Garak risked a friendship, then he would have risked more if he were so inclined.
When I watched this episode on first airing, I was screaming. Garak cruised Bashir so hard it was hilarious. I knew they wouldn't do it because Berman... ugh, but it was gorgeous. This was the gayest thing I'd seen on US tv since Starsky and Hutch.
I’m surprised you didn’t mention the letter Leonard Nemoy wrote to The Next Generation cast specifically asking if they could put a gay character in the show, saying he wished the Original Show had done it.
@@KyleRayner12 Shatner is just a garden-variety a-hole. He didn't actually do anything to hurt Trek. Aside from Final Frontier. Props to him for sabotaging the "backup kiss" scene, but that could as easily be chocked up to ego, since the studio was technically trying to direct his performance.
@@andrewklang809 Yeah, but he's got such a weird vendetta against Trek's fans, particularly trans and autistic fans, that his continued association with the franchise is more than a little grating. Plus, there's his acting. If that didn't hurt Trek at any point, I'd be shocked.
@@hassanalkhalaf1115 pride parade was banned due to some bullshit like "causing harm" those that participated in it ended up in prison. Oh and hate speech about gay people were carried on with no issue. When they said "it causes harm" nobody thought they were talking about theirselves.
A couple of years ago I watched DS9 from start to finish and I just thought it was canon that Garrak and Bashir were a couple until the later seasons. Genuinely confused and shocked when suddenly they were given female love interests and stopped hanging out. They had been the best thing about the show so for me it really went down hill after that. Happy to hear they got married in the end!
As someone who watched TNG and DS9 in the 1990s when it was first on-air, and who was in the Star Trek fandom as a teen and tween, I can tell you I was just as confused and shocked at the sudden break in the relationship. Garak was thrown into jail for six months, and afterwards, he and Bashir suddenly stopped having lunch, they no longer had any scenes together until one final scene in the finale, and Garak was saddled with Ziyal while Bashir hung out of O'Brien and then had the whole Section 31 plotline. Only years later did the information surface that the studio had forced the writers and actors to break the relationship because certain people had felt the subtext was getting too explicit.
well it checks out personality and behavior wise, I mean if you look up all the stories about his interactions with the actresses, and then even some actors. How he gave Garret Wang alot of crap for requesting to direct an episode of Voyager[An option before used by several of the TNG and DS9 cast to get directing credits in their background] and was turned down snidely because 1) Berman didn't ever like doing that for the cast before and he finally had control enough to run things his way in that regard, and 2) stated that Wang was "Just doing it for the credit and didn't care about the directing experience at all." Which was a lie then and shown up later when Wang has gone on to direct several productions afterwards. He Gave both Wang and McNeil[Paris] abuse because they both appeared to have gained weight. A shocking thing that happens when starving artist and actors can finally get a recurring dependable work. Now on to the misogyny. Several times the actresses have had experiences with Berman about Appearance, Weight, shape, money, and acting. It is supposedly I'm certain a factor that led McFadden[Beverly] to quit after season 1 like she did. Why everything written for Troi was low IQ stuff though she was a starfleet officer and a psychologist in several beings behavior and mind issues. Her uniform[bodysuit] being kept on her until they finally agreed to let her change permanently into a real uniform, and still managed to write it in as an insult anyway...
Yeah, Terry Ferell was harassed even more than mentioned here. I suggest this vid for more (if you're in the mood to be even more frustrated about this): ua-cam.com/video/NeSz2gW8IsE/v-deo.html
As a avid ST fan (all series) and heter-male, I would have loved to seen more gay content in Star Trek. But just now watching the actors read the fanfic, 23:27, made me cry. To remember all of the moments that Garak and Bashir shared, struggled and bonded over, it would have been fulfilling to know that their genuine love and admiration for each other led them to a meaningful union.
Andrew Robinson who played Garak - went on to write a book called "A Stitch in Time", about Garak's return to a Carsashia. It's a brilliant book and also emphasises that Garak is sexually flexible
It’s amazing how good Star Trek managed to be during Berman’s tenure despite him being an absolutely worthless bastard who completely failed to understand the franchise he was running.
I mean, he was firmly in power for Voyager (which was largely defined by a fear of risks) and Enterprise (which was largely defined by that "hot babes" comment).
Well, he wasn't so mich the creative force, as he was the one shooting down ideas & treating every actress as disposable. But as limitation breeds innovation, the worrying staff regularly came up with quality work no matter what Rick had already shot down. Still, it's an utter shame what Rick Berman did to Trek.
DS9 was created with Gene Roddenberry's vision, and he had at least a little guidance early on. Majel, Gene's wife and Lwaxanna Troy on the show (among other appearances, like as ship's computer), also inherited his estate and was involved in DS9's direction as well. So that probably had something to do with it. I want to say after DS9, Majel started focusing on Andromeda while the other showrunners got Voyager. I can imagine she didn't want to deal with power struggles, and just created a new series with the Roddenberry name, since she still owned that.
I don't think he did so bad, though the frequent war themes were offputting and the least interesting bits of shows like DS9. Voyager was worse, though, and Enterprise was unwatchable.
I agree AND disagree at the same time. I agree for all the obvious reasons, but it’s also possible that he made Star Trek continue and gave us as much product as we got, due to his choices. So I’m split.
The one time the show upset me with Garek was the time everyone passed a problem to him "unofficially" and he solved it "expectedly" and everyone was mad at Garek for doing what they needed/wanted him to do that they couldn't. But it was all in character, they judged themselves as much as him, nothing could be proven of course, and he was still their outsider inside. Frustration.
I never saw DS9, but the subtext is heartwarming. I teared up when the actors read the video call between the characters. You can hear the pride in their voices 🥰
Alexander Siddig and Andrew Robinson also wrote their own fanfiction of Garak and Bashir, a stage play called "The Nexus" that they performed throughout the 90s - sadly no recordings exist but the script is available online!
I listened to the whole reading and yeah I was crying happy tears at the end...it's so SWEET!!! Happiness is stored in Garak and Bashir's flower garden :)
I can't wait for this. I always felt Harry Kim and Tom Paris felt like strong GAY ENERGY, but alas they were both made clearly straight (maybe they are bi? We'll never know). I personally always identified with Data as a kid and a big part of that is because Data is an outsider is an outsider just like I felt like an outsider as a gay kid
I can Paris as being somewhat omni or pansexaul. "I like what I like. I like pretty girls, but I like you too Harry." Kim I'm less sure of. I can see him straight, bi, gay but closeted. And I can see his relationship with Tom as friendly, mentorship, kind of a big brother thing, romantic but not physical, romantic _and_ physical. I don't know; the writers (production staff too; Garrett Wang remains the only cast member that wanted to direct an episode but was denied) always screwed up on Harry Kim.
I always felt that Tom Paris was omni/pansexual. He had a habit of flirting with anything and everything. I believe Neelix said something about Tom being a flirt who was just "one big hormone walking around the ship". They really could have furthered the omnisexual subtext, especially when it came to Harry Kim and Tom. I think once Tom showed Harry the program he made on the holodeck where he had several characters speaking about how they miss the intimacy with Tom. I could never figure out if that made Harry uncomfortable in a good or a bad way. As in, uncomfortable because it hinted at something he was curious about but hadn't had a chance to explore. Though it was played as Harry being almost prudish to such obvious advances. (Or just uncomfortable with public displays of affection). It could have easily hinted that the pair got into a romantic entanglement with said holodeck characters. A menage et trois situation could easily be possible.
Data's one of my favorites, too. I've shipped Data/Geordi, though lately I think Data might be a better representation of asexuality. Still, they have quite a bromance considering one of them supposedly doesn't have feelings...
That's a big part of why they brought 7 of 9 on board -- all that feminine power scared the shit out of certain sections of the admin and the fandom, so they wanted to balance it with some T&A. What they didn't bank on was Jeri Ryan being such a goddamned good actor.
@@Magnulus76 she was a captain. that's not powerful enough for you? as for the ethical confusion, that's a long time focus in star trek, what do you two when two or more if your cherished ideals come into conflict. star trek captains have to make hard decisions all the time, sometimes with serious implications and repercussions. that is the essence of power
@@luciferangelica She may have authority but power is a different matter. I don't think of Janeway as a particularly powerful female character. Seven of Nine exudes more power. Janeway engages in murder without flinching in the episode Tuvix, so that's why I think she's ethically confused. She chastizes other captains when it suits her, but gives herself a free ticket. She's not consistently drawn out as a character.
@@Magnulus76 idk, don't watch voyager, but sisko poisoned a whole planet. they've all had to make hard decisions, but it seems your definition of power and your definition of ethics boil down to whether or not you personally like someone, possibly on account of their gender. good day
Slash wasn't replaced by shipping, shipping became the term for any pairing. And actively stanning that pairing. Slash is more used to refer to specifically homoerotic fics.
And part of that history is about queer desire, part of it is about het female desire, and all of it was about telling hey male fans they were not the sex police in science fiction. I know the complicated history, but that's a rough starting outline.
@@grayarcadian yup. As a female slash shipper, understand I represent a complicated place in this history. I try to be respectful of real gay people, while still finding refuge in the slash community. Gotta be real careful that fanfic doesn't cross the line into fetishising real queerness.
OMG! I had no idea that there were actors actually supporting fanfic writers! I hope this becomes a thing for every fandom! I have SO MANY saved stories that I would LOVE to be voiced by the original actors!
@@margotpreston Oh god, imagine the salt from the people who thought Stamets/Culber and Adira were "shoving it down their throats" and the Seven/Raffi hand holding was "ruining a beloved character" if that happens. It will be a glorious day, and their lamentations shall be heard in Sto'Vo'Kor.
@@chickadeestevenson5440 YES THIS!!! It could be hysterical, spies from every empire trying to use the wedding to get the upper hand on each other and find out what dark secrets Garak coded in the gems on the wedding ring
@@chickadeestevenson5440 I would also like that. With one character stating, I didn’t know they were dating. And Becket saying something like, “what? Really, man? Everyone in the quadrant could see them flirting. They were always having lunch and having like, weird, little, innuendo laden chats.”
Hey, I know Babylon 5 is a fun punchline, but at the same time DS9 was airing, B5 had major character that was bi/pan*, references to same-sex married couples, and an AIDS-analog episode that was a lot stronger and more emotional than one Enterprise would do a decade later. The creator and showrunner would later go on to work with The Wachowskis on Sens8. * Well, telepathy was involved, so it's hard to say if the relationship may have been a one-off or not, but still.
Huh, I'd never heard of B5 as a punchline, more as an unsung masterpiece that never got the admiration it deserves (season five notwithstanding.) That said, thought, it's "under the radar"-ness probably helped with it's ability to be so progressive
Ivanova and talia was actually agnowledged that she was atracted and loved her. I mean talia, yeah, but it was agnowledged that they were going to be liely an item when they went to live together.
@@marocat4749 sadly WB enforced strict boundaries on that storyline. Without that short leash Talia actress Andrea Thompson might have stayed on the show for a meatier part than what she was given. Would have been interesting to see how the story would have gone differently. Where were her telekinetic abilities going? Would she have fully replaced Lyta? Would she have gone to the vorlon homeworld and be altered instead?
I mean, you can understand why. The show was held back from pushing boundaries in any significant areas for over a decade. At best they were allowed to talk about gay and trans people in euphemism. New trek is largely making up for lost time so to a conservative it's probably pretty jarring.
@@SapphWolf So, the race and diversity stuff from ToS wasn't boundary pushing? Sure, they were held back in some ways. But they did push the race boundary in many ways throughout ToS, TNG, and DS9 (Not a big Voyager fan, so can't speak to that series). Even the choice of casting Avery Brooks in 1993 was a huge deal, and the studio wasn't a fan of the idea. Looking at Star Trek from a more broad perspective, it seems naive to mark a specific series where social justice was a "new thing." Roddenberry knew that finding delight and common ground in our differences is the only way peace and equality can be accomplished for all (and said as much). Which seems like the worst nightmare for any bigoted exclusionary group who might toss around the term SJW in a derogatory way.
Modern Conservative is an oxymoron lol They're just SQWs (status quo warriors) that don't want anything to ever change, ever, out of some reactionary fear that lifting others up means being pushed-down themselves. They don't and won't see liberation as anything other than a zero-sum game where there must be a winner and a loser; one with and one without, freedom itself. But to conservatives, freedom is the freedom *to* oppress others, while for everyone else, freedom is the freedom *from* oppression itself.
@@Futt.Buckerson Well, it ought to, but it kinda doesn't. Its almost an aversion to *positive* change in reality. I mean, you'd think CONSERVatives would for example want to CONSERVE the environment, but nope, they couldn't care less and are always the ones to sell-off public land, or pollute etc. so that kind of change, they're totally on board with. Ugh.
I am extremely excited for this one. I have been perpetually rewatching DS9 since the show went off the air. The banter between Garak and Bashir is endlessly entertaining. Of course, I share an equal love for the verbal gymnastics between Odo and Quark as well.
To be honest: It‘d had been cool to know if there are gay klingon and how they relationship would had looked like. Maybe like the bond between gay samurais in the feudal japan but more … well, Klingon-style? Or what if Dex‘s new host was male. So many possibilities ran through they hands because someone wanted to play safe. 😏
As a Sid City Social Club member who got to watch Little Achievements live (both times) I'm just... absolutely giddy. I still have hope that some time in the future one of the big canon Trek shows will confirm them. Sid and Andy both said with the right script they'd reprise the characters in a heartbeat.
DS9 is my favorite Star Trek, and knowing how Rick Berman fucked it all up makes me SO angry on a regular basis Also the fact that Sid AND Andrew are still super into Garashir to this day shows just how ready they were to take the plunge!!
Tell me about it. Berman fucked over all the best of Trek, and destroyed so much that could have been amazing. My favorite is Voyager, so you can imagine how much I despise that SOB
@@AllenTax To be fair, Farrel got a new gig on a new sitcom, led by Ted Danson, "Becker". Kept her working longer than DS9 had left. They probably didn't have to kill her, but she has said she was struggling with her work schedule at the time. Though it should also be said, her issues with Berman likely pushed her to find that new work, and may have been why she was killed off. So she couldn't come back.
Ughhh!! That was twenty seconds of dialogue and I FELT it in my spirit!! Me and my big brother always suspected Garak and Bashir were the best couple that didn't happen in Star Trek and to see the actors explore that potential just for a moment- PRICELESS!!
I mean.. they kind of are though... the Garak Bashier developement would have been great because it just worked ... the kiss between Jedzia and whoever that chick was? that's never not going to be eye rolling to me. Why? Because they did it JUST to have two women kissing. I don't speak for everyone obviously, but I feel the same about straight couples. If the chemistry is there and plays out well then awesome... otherwise it's force, and inappropriate. It's the same reason I don't like the hero kissing his girl while explosions are going on around them... just there to check it off on the list.
@@saribeepo.o5111 the trills don't really have a sense of gender based attraction though. Even the retconned trill of TNG was like "wanna fuck, Beverly?" Despite the body they possessed being a female body. Trills don't care about gender, as to do so would be illogical in a society where everyone are just genderless beings inside a gendered body.
I'd love for them to show up in Picard as a couple since that series is drawing in the old guard of trek to give them all a continued story line for us to see.
The one phrase that comes to mind whenever “Berman Trek” is talked about is “missed opportunities”. Every time there was a potential to be bolder and go farther in storytelling and character development in the shows, from TNG to ENT, Rick Berman shot them down, which cheated the writers, actors and the audience out of something amazing.
Leave it to a dry, white, straight, sexist showrunner to hold-back a show about a future where diversity, tolerance, love, friendship and justice are supposed to negate all biases, ignorance and predjudices... Renegade Cut has a good video or two on how Berman ruined so much of Star Trek.
@@Dan-vo7vc It sure doesn't help. Straight, cis, white men are treated as the default and don't see the importance of representation, because they have never lacked it. I am quite sure his whitness served as a further barrier to developing empathy for minority concerns. Mine did.
@@Dan-vo7vc yes, of course, thats exactly what I said... ugh No, but it (and the other things I listed) makes his apathy towards or blindness about, issues of visability all the more potent. He isn't among any minority thats faced any kind of oppression or demand of justification so he hasn't needed to develop any awareness or empathy about it. He just hand waves it all away because he never had to learn to care about any of it.
...except that's not born out in the world, at all, or maybe you need to travel more. You're commenting about someone you don't know at all, attributing his bigotry, at least in part, to his race. Imagine for one moment if you did the same for any other group. I know it's very en vogue right now, but that kind of sloppy, discriminatory rhetoric ruins the point you're trying to make, and adds zero to the conversation.
This is one of my fave videos you've ever done. So glad that the actors that played Garak and Bashir did those virtual live readings of fanfic of them as a married couple
I saw that reading as it was happening and I teared up YoY They look at each other so fondly. They have soft energy around each other, but Robinson managed to always keep an edge to Garak. Like a domesticated panther. What a performance.
I'm so incredibly glad you talked about Little Achievements!! Watching their reenactment of that script made my heart so full. Being young, queer, and a huge fan of DS9, and seeing the actors who portrayed the characters I love really invest themselves in a truly queer storyline was everything to me.
(P)Rick Berman is singlehandedly the most gutless sycophant in all of Trek. I'm amazed he can hide his contempt for our existence. On a lighter note, I love the way Janeway sinsterly said, "delete the wife". Oh, don't we all wish it was that easy? LMAO
The whole video was an emotional roller coaster. I’m the begging I’m screaming and fangirling over the gay and by the time we get to the actors reading that story I’m crying. I’m so glad I got this I’m my UA-cam recommended!
Honestly, I can't read Bashir or Garak as straight *or* gay, Julian flirts with everything that can possibly consent and Garak's been trained to charm everyone he meets. I think what's magical about Bashir/Garak to me isn't that they're emotionally entangled and super queer, it's that despite their entanglements, Garak seems super cool with Bashir flirting with everything that moves and frankly, the whole thing dripped with a post-modern metropolitan pansexual polyamorous vibe that I'm super into. I'm just sad we never got to see the 5 way date of Garak and his boyfriend Bashir and his girlfriend Ezri and his boyfriend Miles and Miles' wife Keiko.
Bashir and Ezri never clicked with me. For me Bashir was defined through his augment backstory and his relationships and friendships with Garak and O'Brien. And I'm straight like a line.
“HE’S BITING THAT FEMALE!” is now my favorite thing to yell out at random, especially when there’s a particular couple who just can’t seem to separate from each other’s lips in public.
Don't forget the episode of TNG where Riker hooked up with a "non - gender" alien (who had a phallus) who was taken back to its planet and "Reeducated", Riker tried to save it but was too late. That was the closest to pro LGBTQ star trek had gotten by that point.
For the record, I love both B5 and DS9. They’re both fantastic! I recommend them both to everyone who is exceptionally intelligent and enjoy creative storytelling
Well they both are. yeah, show gave them both girlfriends. But they are straight FLIRTING early on. They can "change" it later all they want, but it happened. They're bi.
Is it me or did Rick Berman want Star Trek to be walking boob stands and pew pew. Kind of the opposite of the "experience" GR was looking for. It seems to be a very Paramount 'friendly' take though.
I literally just finished watching Picard a few hours ago and when I saw Seven and Raffi hold hands at the end my little gay brain just exploded. I was so happy to see it. Love your videos Matt, I have been going through them now for the last few weeks. Thanks. 👍
This video turned more beautiful than I would have imagined. I always loved Garak and Bashir together, there was so much chemistry. The actors reading that fanfic was so sweet🥰
Garak is my favorite DS9 character, because he's obviously a spy, everyone knows he's a spy, and he openly talks about being a spy, and then whenever anyone asks him about being a spy he goes, "whoa, hey, who said anything about me being a spy?" I have to imagine him reacting the exact same way if anyone ever directly asked him if he and Bashir were a couple, just making the lowest possible effort to deny it without any attempt at actually making it convincing.
Meanwhile Bashir's standing there watching the conversation, arms crossed, rolling his eyes.
@@KyleRayner12 barely holding back that little smirk he does when Garak amuses him despite himself.
That makes it pretty canon because garak, well he doesnt admit direct but in you have to deduce through his lies. And he is very tsundere. "Its not like i missed you or anything doctor, baka"
@@marocat4749 two fandoms I never knew I’d be this happy to see cross
Yes he is a spy, but something of a disgraced one for that.
Rick Berman: We can't have gay characters. It's too risky for a family show.
Also Rick Berman: Rape gangs and sex ghosts? Why would that be an issue?
Borderline-incestuous sex ghosts, at that.
I didn't have to watch the video to conclude it was Rick Berman. That guy sucks.
Because that's abuse to women, and you heard what the guy's thoughts on women were. Lucky he considered them people.
LOL!
@@Jaaaaaffff If only he sucked in the way that gay men could appreciate.
We also have to note how some of the writers helped!
In one of the middle seasons we learn that Cardasians (Garaks people) flirt by arguing. And Garak and Bashir spend lunches together arguing about literature from their cultures. (You could say sharing their culture and history)
I never clocked that; nice!
Never noticed that
But they don’t argue, they debate. They have intellectual/cultural disagreements. We see how Cardassian courtship arguments work in the episode about it, it’s absolutely nothing like how Garak and Bashir interact. If anything, Garak comes closer to “cardassian flirting” with O’Brien in the episode Empok Nor. Except he tries to kill him.
I still love the way Kate delivered that line, "delete the wife."
"He is BITING that female!" This will never not make me laugh.
"Commander, what are your intentions towards my daughter?" is my favorite line from that scene.
One of TNG's best lines.
Whoopi Goldberg likely wouldn't be what she is today without Nichelle Nichols. She watched Star Trek (ToS) as a child and said later that she ran to her mother to inform her that "There's a black lady on TV and she ain't no maid!" Nichelle Nichols is why Whoopi became an actor. It's amazing how far Star Trek's reach has been throughout history and how it's affected many people.
Have you seen Nichelle Nichols and Whoopi Goldberg whenever they greet each other. They kiss like family, like raised together blood related family. It's beautiful, heart-warming, love.
MLK was right. I didn't know about his connection to Nichelle Nichols.
@@Lupin788 Watch the interviews with Nichelle Nichols. The story has some small variations each time she tells it, part of the old oral tradition of performance and mythmaking. But the core, that is undoubtedly true. He asked her not to leave. She had been offered a role on stage, returning to her glorious days as a dancer and actor for a live audience, to a place she felt comfortable and knew her talents would be recognized. She gave that up to be Lt Uhura. And Roddenberry, in acknowledgement of MLK, I think as a thank you as well, wrote a story in which we discover that Lt. Uhura is 4th in command of the Enterprise. She, a black women in the 60s, but also a black woman in the future, takes command of the ship. That is powerful, even today.
The first. Black woman astronaut, Mae Jemisen, also grew up watching Nichelle Nichols, and credits her with her chosen profession! She appeared in an episode of The Next Generation, too.
She is shown as an inspiration to the judge on All Rise. No one is allowed to touch her picture of Nichelle Nichols.
"He'S bItInG tHaT FeMalE" I wasnt prepared for that 😂😂😂
I loved Lal
And that was one time Whoopi's attempt to make the show gayer actually worked. Her original line explaining love started "when a man and a woman..." but Whoopi argued that Trek should be beyond that and got it switched to "when two people..."
The way I sob every time I watch the ending of that episode…
@@Eviltwin531 "Only two?" - confused Tenctonites and other species that are not binary reproductive.
also, is that biting line a callback to "The Doctor's Wife", when Idris says, "I like biting. It's like kissing, only there's a winner!" Mad Bitey Lady. heh.
From that episode I always remember "His hands...worked...so fast...he never gave up..." "It just wasn't meant to be..."
@@thcollegestudent so so heartbreaking. the way datas voice is so quiet when he and lal are talking the last time, specifically when he asks what shes feeling.. i cry like a baby every time urgh
I legitimately cried when listening to Siddig and Robinson read that fanfic. DS9 is the show I love more than any other piece of Star Trek, and I wish it got all the support it deserved from its producers.
I don't know why I started cheering. I write star trek fanfiction and I would die if the actors read my story.
I did too and now I'm off to watch the full video (and probably cry some more)
Me too. It was ... beautiful.
So did I! And I almost cried just watching the clips in this video
Same😭 so sweet, the dedication to their characters is amazing.
Rick Berman was obviously a homophobe despite Matt's kind edit.
Oh another telletubie offended.
How can you say “obviously,” when Berman has said nothing to support that? I agree that there should have been queer representation on 90’s Trek, and lament he was against it. But he has also claimed he was constantly concerned about getting cancelled. Did he make the wrong choice? Probably. But was he homophonic? I don’t know. How could you know?
That all said, if there are stories I don’t know about, please enlighten me. I’m always willing to learn!
I think it's fair to say that Berman wasn't JUST against LGBTQ characters but was also a raging misogynist. One of the biggest reasons Terry Farrell who played jadzia left the show was because of repeated sexual harassment at the hands of Rick Berman. I'll give him credit where credit is due, he managed to not only keep star trek on the air but lead it to its greatest success. But, that doesn't mean he was a good person or even someone who should've been at the helm of a series focused so heavily on diversity.
All that being said Star Trek Discovery was awful. NOT because of its wokeness the way the troglodyte conservatives would have us believe. Rather, it was the poor writing and butchery of the canonical species development, like the way the klingons looked.
The hysteria over a fictional tv show. Who cares? It was really good, that’s all that needs to be said. Chill the eff out!!!
So you have evidence for an entirely different claim but no the one you got asked to back up? I agree, nothing has been put forward to make Berman "obviously a homophobe". He very well could be. But fear of cancellation explains away all the same choices.@@ryanwells4375
Andrew and Alex performing these fan scripts with the Garashir ships is absolutely awesome and really sweet somehow.
Agreed! I like to imagine he and Ezri parted as friends and maybe if they wanted kids she was their surrogate or something. Or just lifelong friends and Garashir are child free.
I know Frakes has said he believes Riker is bisexual. Anyone who's ever seen the man sit could tell you that, though 😉
Underrated comment #RikerManeuver 😉💯
* casually looks down at how I am sitting *
IIRC, Frakes' comment is that Riker is "try-sexual," as in "he'll try anything once." :-)
That reminds me! It may sound off the wall, but I've got a theory that Riker and Quark are fwb or something (based on a conversation they had and a gesture that Quark made in it that was. Very flirtatious for a Ferengi)
I'M DEAD!!! KOEASKOAASK ♥
This makes me think of a really old Gene Roddenberry interview I listened to where he talks about the pilot for Star Trek the original series, which starred Nimoy as Spock and Rodenberry's future wife as the second in command of enterprise. Apparently he was told he couldn't have BOTH an alien officer AND a female officer, and had to pick one. "So I cast the man and married the woman, because I couldn't legally do it the other way around."
That is the popular version of that story, although others involved have disputed the reasons why the original pilot was not green lit.
As a teen I wrote Majel Barret Roddenberry a fan letter lamenting the lack of queer people on Star Trek, and she wrote me back to say she agreed and sadly had no control over writing or creative choices. It was a heartbreaking response (coupled with a fabulous 8x10)
That's lovely that she replied and its so nice to hear she was supportive
What a cool story, thank you for sharing.
Finally people are allowed to marry the person they love
@@hollydowns2279 Not everywhere in the world, and in many places where it *is* legal there are still millions of people fighting to make it illegal again.
Dear woman who slept her way into Star Trek ,
I’d like to see more things that are only important to me . Thanks ..
The “my husband” brought tears to my eyes. Lovely.
Same the show is way older than me so I grew up watching it has a special place in my heart (I suppose I'm still growing up watching it)
5:12 Even as a kid I interpreted Julian's response to Garak's hands on his shoulders as one of attraction. Swap Julian out for a woman, leaving the reactions the same, and there'd never've been a question that it was a "will they won't they". Add in the O'Brian love triangle (love-parallelogram?), and it was basically Ross/Rachel.
O'Brian is happily married.
@@kyleellis1825and yet he has flirtatious scenes with men and women outside his relationship that he seems uncomfortable with but his wife approves.
@@k8g8s8 He just doesn't realize his wife is up for extra people sometimes. But O'Brian never intntionally iniates the flirting.
"Come home to me, my dear."
I nearly cried at that line. So simple but so beautiful and powerful and perfect.
oh I absolutely cried
@@Sanne78 still weeping!😭
I cried too. Would love to listen to that story
as I understand it, Gene was also very pro fan fic writers and slashers. He was happy to have them write Kirk/Spock, but only had pet peeves about zippers being apart of Starfleet pants! (and not about the gay sex)
Lollll that's so Gene, that zippers of all things would be his big concern
There was a lovely bit where one of the biggest, best OG slash artists -- Jean Kluge -- used to get periodic C&D letters from Paramount, and she would send them a xerox of a signed letter that GR sent her where he thanked her and the fan community and saying that in his opinion, the fans could do whatever they wanted for keeping the show alive in the 70s. They always went away after that. :-)
A part has to be that kirk/spocjk shippers were likely an integral part that the franchise stayed afloat. He knew the fans and i gues that is part why he valued that.
That he was then like, i may as well should have them romantic partners is nice thou.
Which is hilarious because the actual on-screen costumes had zippers so I don’t know how he thought they were supposed to work otherwise XD
I think one fan novel had a prologue written by him? Rings a bell.
I had heard that Rick Berman was a creep, but it turns out he's also a coward.
One can be both!
Are creeps not always cowards?
"Fuck you, Rick Berman. You ruin everything."
Dropping a fun little reference I always wanted to use but never have the chance.
Funnily enough, for me it was the other way around (I was familiar with the cowardice before I started learning about the creepiness).
“Sulu you’re the most scrutable man I know” is my favorite thing I’ve ever heard.
I might be reading into this, but Gates McFadden's delivery of that line feels like a remorseful commentary on the episode itself.
I think you're spot on.
Me, without even clicking on the video: Rick Fuckin' Berman
every. fucking. time.
Goddamn his ass to hell...
I didn’t know the guy until I watched this but for now on anytime I hear a problem with Star Trek he’s immediately going to pop into my head exactly like that
@@DangerNoodleReads
He is the reason for any and every sucky decision on trek after Roddenberry died.
And even before that.
Seven of 9 for eye candy?
Berman.
Kes and neelix creepy relationship?
Berman.
The decision to make the single gendered species played by women In tng?
Berman.
We can't blame him for chakotay and the fake Indian schtik. But you know who we can blame?
Berman.
@@damenwhelan3236 mega yikes my guy. Mega yikes.
I absolutely adored Robinson's portrayal of Garak. The only reason I'm glad they didn't give him a romantic relationship with Bashir is because then they would have killed him off right away. I love DSN and I couldn't bear it without Garak. Absolutely the wittiest character in all of Star Trek.
Hollywood still isn't ready for a gay character with a happy ending. I guess they've bumped us up from pure villains to side character besties but protagonist? No thank you sir.
It's important to note that Garak never reciprocated Ziyal's feelings for him. He only saw himself as a mentor and friend to her, and never even really approved of her romantic feelings, but was sympathetic to those feelings.
And can you imagine if damar killed bashir, he was forgiving killing her, but imagine bashir,
And the effort not to have any chemistry whatever with zival other than strictly mentor/friend. I mean they can have massages and it still, zero chemestry whatever.
i thought he was very aware that she's the daughter of his most prominent enemy and distanced himself because he always suspected she was a trap set by Dukat.
@@PyrokineticFire1 Garak tended to relish needling Dukat. He did suspect as much in For the Cause, but I figure Dukat would have found a friendship with Garak just as bad as something more. So, if Garak risked a friendship, then he would have risked more if he were so inclined.
Wasn't there like a huge age gap? Like, Garak was closer to her dad's age.
@@fastertrackcreative yup. All the more reason it was a really bad and creepy idea only there to placate Rick Berman.
When I watched this episode on first airing, I was screaming. Garak cruised Bashir so hard it was hilarious. I knew they wouldn't do it because Berman... ugh, but it was gorgeous. This was the gayest thing I'd seen on US tv since Starsky and Hutch.
@metalhead6526 lololol
I’m surprised you didn’t mention the letter Leonard Nemoy wrote to The Next Generation cast specifically asking if they could put a gay character in the show, saying he wished the Original Show had done it.
God Damn Rick Berman. The true villain of Star Trek.
That he is, that he surely is.
Eh, Shatner has his place. There's really more of a Legion of Doom situation behind the scenes.
@@KyleRayner12 Shatner is just a garden-variety a-hole. He didn't actually do anything to hurt Trek. Aside from Final Frontier.
Props to him for sabotaging the "backup kiss" scene, but that could as easily be chocked up to ego, since the studio was technically trying to direct his performance.
@@andrewklang809 Yeah, but he's got such a weird vendetta against Trek's fans, particularly trans and autistic fans, that his continued association with the franchise is more than a little grating.
Plus, there's his acting. If that didn't hurt Trek at any point, I'd be shocked.
Probably is Borg King in real life
Love that “they break out of prison together” is in the list of gay subtext.
Well since a popular phase is "be gay, do crime" it only makes sense that you have break out.
Have you ever been in a Turkish prison?
@@cougarhunter33 tell us
@@hassanalkhalaf1115 pride parade was banned due to some bullshit like "causing harm" those that participated in it ended up in prison. Oh and hate speech about gay people were carried on with no issue.
When they said "it causes harm" nobody thought they were talking about theirselves.
That is a reoccurring trope isn't it
I'll always be here for dunking on Berman.
One of the many reasons I adore you, Nick.
I love that Garak & Bashir got their happy ending. Rick Berman is the definition of male fragility.
Rick Berman’s a horrible asshole and a terrible producer. Fuckin ruined Voyager as well from what I can tell
And misogyny. Guy held trek back for decades when trek was always about progressive politics
@user-bj1md3zb3ubold of you to point out the obvious here.
@@tenkenrooa lot of holding it back was the studio, and the UPN network when it came to Voyager and Enterprise.
Really it was Garak who was gay. Bashir was trying to get into DAX at the beginning of the show, and Garak and Bashir ended up being friends.
A couple of years ago I watched DS9 from start to finish and I just thought it was canon that Garrak and Bashir were a couple until the later seasons. Genuinely confused and shocked when suddenly they were given female love interests and stopped hanging out. They had been the best thing about the show so for me it really went down hill after that. Happy to hear they got married in the end!
As someone who watched TNG and DS9 in the 1990s when it was first on-air, and who was in the Star Trek fandom as a teen and tween, I can tell you I was just as confused and shocked at the sudden break in the relationship. Garak was thrown into jail for six months, and afterwards, he and Bashir suddenly stopped having lunch, they no longer had any scenes together until one final scene in the finale, and Garak was saddled with Ziyal while Bashir hung out of O'Brien and then had the whole Section 31 plotline. Only years later did the information surface that the studio had forced the writers and actors to break the relationship because certain people had felt the subtext was getting too explicit.
“..they tend to not be babes.” That is appalling.
Agreed, he sounds like a slimy, sexist TV producer "Victim-of-the-Week" on "Murder, She Wrote." It's disgusting.
well it checks out personality and behavior wise, I mean if you look up all the stories about his interactions with the actresses, and then even some actors. How he gave Garret Wang alot of crap for requesting to direct an episode of Voyager[An option before used by several of the TNG and DS9 cast to get directing credits in their background] and was turned down snidely because 1) Berman didn't ever like doing that for the cast before and he finally had control enough to run things his way in that regard, and 2) stated that Wang was "Just doing it for the credit and didn't care about the directing experience at all." Which was a lie then and shown up later when Wang has gone on to direct several productions afterwards. He Gave both Wang and McNeil[Paris] abuse because they both appeared to have gained weight. A shocking thing that happens when starving artist and actors can finally get a recurring dependable work.
Now on to the misogyny. Several times the actresses have had experiences with Berman about Appearance, Weight, shape, money, and acting. It is supposedly I'm certain a factor that led McFadden[Beverly] to quit after season 1 like she did. Why everything written for Troi was low IQ stuff though she was a starfleet officer and a psychologist in several beings behavior and mind issues. Her uniform[bodysuit] being kept on her until they finally agreed to let her change permanently into a real uniform, and still managed to write it in as an insult anyway...
That's probably because the military doesn't require a model portfolio to be an admiral or general, lol!
@@dragonsword7370 I love how Marina says she will always be grateful to Captain Jellico for getting her out of the boobs uniforms.
And his little smirk.. just gross.
Wow. Turns out Rick Berman is a giant misogynist. Sucks that someone like that was making decisions for Star Trek.
Yeah, Terry Ferell was harassed even more than mentioned here. I suggest this vid for more (if you're in the mood to be even more frustrated about this):
ua-cam.com/video/NeSz2gW8IsE/v-deo.html
Hell yeah
Finally talking about my homeboi bashir and his fabulous taste in ski sweaters 😤
And his horrible taste in tank tops.
@@KyleRayner12 his tank tops are fine, what's awful is his taste in athletic wear! Have you seen his racketball outfit?
And his awful fate to be stuckin the federation that despite all the good, have a terrible fashion sense. :P
@@horseenthusiast1250 It's firmly my headcanon that he dressed like that to entice Garak to strip him naked.
As a avid ST fan (all series) and heter-male, I would have loved to seen more gay content in Star Trek. But just now watching the actors read the fanfic, 23:27, made me cry. To remember all of the moments that Garak and Bashir shared, struggled and bonded over, it would have been fulfilling to know that their genuine love and admiration for each other led them to a meaningful union.
It's such a beautiful thing to see today's straight men being supportive of the LGBTQ community! Thank you.
Andrew Robinson who played Garak - went on to write a book called "A Stitch in Time", about Garak's return to a Carsashia.
It's a brilliant book and also emphasises that Garak is sexually flexible
It’s amazing how good Star Trek managed to be during Berman’s tenure despite him being an absolutely worthless bastard who completely failed to understand the franchise he was running.
I mean, he was firmly in power for Voyager (which was largely defined by a fear of risks) and Enterprise (which was largely defined by that "hot babes" comment).
Well, he wasn't so mich the creative force, as he was the one shooting down ideas & treating every actress as disposable.
But as limitation breeds innovation, the worrying staff regularly came up with quality work no matter what Rick had already shot down.
Still, it's an utter shame what Rick Berman did to Trek.
DS9 was created with Gene Roddenberry's vision, and he had at least a little guidance early on.
Majel, Gene's wife and Lwaxanna Troy on the show (among other appearances, like as ship's computer), also inherited his estate and was involved in DS9's direction as well.
So that probably had something to do with it.
I want to say after DS9, Majel started focusing on Andromeda while the other showrunners got Voyager. I can imagine she didn't want to deal with power struggles, and just created a new series with the Roddenberry name, since she still owned that.
I don't think he did so bad, though the frequent war themes were offputting and the least interesting bits of shows like DS9. Voyager was worse, though, and Enterprise was unwatchable.
@@Magnulus76 dude, you just said "he didn't do so bad," and then listed all the ways he did bad.
Rick Berman is basically my mortal enemy for all the damage he did to my favorite franchise.
Ha ha ha ha ha
Geez what do you think of what Start Trek has become now? I'd trade Trek now for Rick Berman Trek any day
I agree AND disagree at the same time. I agree for all the obvious reasons, but it’s also possible that he made Star Trek continue and gave us as much product as we got, due to his choices. So I’m split.
"Just plain, simple Garek." Biggest lie he ever told!
Well, false modesty is at least in character for a spy. :)
The one time the show upset me with Garek was the time everyone passed a problem to him "unofficially" and he solved it "expectedly" and everyone was mad at Garek for doing what they needed/wanted him to do that they couldn't. But it was all in character, they judged themselves as much as him, nothing could be proven of course, and he was still their outsider inside. Frustration.
@@kathryngeeslin9509 because it gave voice to their hypocrisy. They couldnt solve the solution the "right way" and had to "settle" for Garaks method.
@@erieperry8241 And could not admit to themselves that's what they did. Knowingly.
@@kathryngeeslin9509 after all, they know they are the "good guys" and good guys dont do this sort of thing.
I never saw DS9, but the subtext is heartwarming. I teared up when the actors read the video call between the characters. You can hear the pride in their voices 🥰
Alexander Siddig and Andrew Robinson also wrote their own fanfiction of Garak and Bashir, a stage play called "The Nexus" that they performed throughout the 90s - sadly no recordings exist but the script is available online!
That “what do I have to do to talk interrupted with my husband...”: tears.
I listened to the whole reading and yeah I was crying happy tears at the end...it's so SWEET!!! Happiness is stored in Garak and Bashir's flower garden :)
Garak and Bashir being married brought a tear to my eye and a smile to my face 🥰
Just imagine them gardening together 💕💕💕💕
@@MattBaume which high ranking Romulan's garden are they tending together?
@@sanityisrelative One who won't be around for much longer, I'd imagine.
@@MattBaume Or defending the Alamo together and looking quite fashionable..
Im not crying you're crying!!!
I can't wait for this. I always felt Harry Kim and Tom Paris felt like strong GAY ENERGY, but alas they were both made clearly straight (maybe they are bi? We'll never know). I personally always identified with Data as a kid and a big part of that is because Data is an outsider is an outsider just like I felt like an outsider as a gay kid
They were probably coded in order to get past the censores
I can Paris as being somewhat omni or pansexaul. "I like what I like. I like pretty girls, but I like you too Harry."
Kim I'm less sure of. I can see him straight, bi, gay but closeted. And I can see his relationship with Tom as friendly, mentorship, kind of a big brother thing, romantic but not physical, romantic _and_ physical. I don't know; the writers (production staff too; Garrett Wang remains the only cast member that wanted to direct an episode but was denied) always screwed up on Harry Kim.
I always felt that Tom Paris was omni/pansexual. He had a habit of flirting with anything and everything. I believe Neelix said something about Tom being a flirt who was just "one big hormone walking around the ship". They really could have furthered the omnisexual subtext, especially when it came to Harry Kim and Tom. I think once Tom showed Harry the program he made on the holodeck where he had several characters speaking about how they miss the intimacy with Tom. I could never figure out if that made Harry uncomfortable in a good or a bad way. As in, uncomfortable because it hinted at something he was curious about but hadn't had a chance to explore. Though it was played as Harry being almost prudish to such obvious advances. (Or just uncomfortable with public displays of affection).
It could have easily hinted that the pair got into a romantic entanglement with said holodeck characters. A menage et trois situation could easily be possible.
Data's one of my favorites, too. I've shipped Data/Geordi, though lately I think Data might be a better representation of asexuality. Still, they have quite a bromance considering one of them supposedly doesn't have feelings...
You know that TNG did in fact have a gay character. It was changed do to hate,death threats.
I wasn’t expecting to actually tear up hearing “my husband” come out of his mouth, but here we are ;_;
Same. Who's cutting onions in here? *sniffle*
Did I know anything about Star Trek before this video? No.
Am I crying over this ship finally getting to be canon? Yes.
I love the story of Shatner crossing his eyes lmao this redeems a significant portion of the annoying things he's done for me.
That’s what I was thinking!!! I’m not a fan of his, but that’s a clever way to be an ally and made me warm a bit
Berman says powerful women aren't babes
CPT. Janeway: Am I a joke to you?
That's a big part of why they brought 7 of 9 on board -- all that feminine power scared the shit out of certain sections of the admin and the fandom, so they wanted to balance it with some T&A. What they didn't bank on was Jeri Ryan being such a goddamned good actor.
Powerful woman? She was ethically confused and scary. Not sure that is "powerful" in a good way.
@@Magnulus76 she was a captain. that's not powerful enough for you? as for the ethical confusion, that's a long time focus in star trek, what do you two when two or more if your cherished ideals come into conflict. star trek captains have to make hard decisions all the time, sometimes with serious implications and repercussions. that is the essence of power
@@luciferangelica
She may have authority but power is a different matter. I don't think of Janeway as a particularly powerful female character. Seven of Nine exudes more power.
Janeway engages in murder without flinching in the episode Tuvix, so that's why I think she's ethically confused. She chastizes other captains when it suits her, but gives herself a free ticket. She's not consistently drawn out as a character.
@@Magnulus76 idk, don't watch voyager, but sisko poisoned a whole planet. they've all had to make hard decisions, but it seems your definition of power and your definition of ethics boil down to whether or not you personally like someone, possibly on account of their gender. good day
Slash wasn't replaced by shipping, shipping became the term for any pairing. And actively stanning that pairing. Slash is more used to refer to specifically homoerotic fics.
And part of that history is about queer desire, part of it is about het female desire, and all of it was about telling hey male fans they were not the sex police in science fiction. I know the complicated history, but that's a rough starting outline.
I understood 0% of this comment
@@grayarcadian yup. As a female slash shipper, understand I represent a complicated place in this history. I try to be respectful of real gay people, while still finding refuge in the slash community. Gotta be real careful that fanfic doesn't cross the line into fetishising real queerness.
@@thelthrythquezada8397 semantics about community lingo.
slash?! i thought slash meant pissing! awkward
OMG! I had no idea that there were actors actually supporting fanfic writers! I hope this becomes a thing for every fandom! I have SO MANY saved stories that I would LOVE to be voiced by the original actors!
I had never seen that clip of them reading the script together and I just cried like a baby omg
AOL (awwwwed out loud)
Oh, NO! Matt's wearing a red shirt! He's going to die before the episodes ends.
It's Ok, the Star Fleet Pin/Communitaor indicates he is a TNG/DS9/Voy-era red shirt.
@@Samael1113 A very important distinction, indeed!
AND he talked a lot, so he is main cast. Only saying one sentence - that's dangerous.
@@Samael1113 So long as he doesn't sit down at the Enterprise conn...
I'm not saying that Star Trek: Picard has the opportunity to bring these two on and confirm that they're married, but I'm not saying that it doesn't.
Gods, I hope Something like that happens. It would make me so happy.
@@margotpreston Oh god, imagine the salt from the people who thought Stamets/Culber and Adira were "shoving it down their throats" and the Seven/Raffi hand holding was "ruining a beloved character" if that happens. It will be a glorious day, and their lamentations shall be heard in Sto'Vo'Kor.
I'd say that Lower Decks is a better way. Have the ship have to go to a wedding and it's Garak's and Bashir's wedding.
at DS9.
@@chickadeestevenson5440 YES THIS!!! It could be hysterical, spies from every empire trying to use the wedding to get the upper hand on each other and find out what dark secrets Garak coded in the gems on the wedding ring
@@chickadeestevenson5440 I would also like that. With one character stating, I didn’t know they were dating. And Becket saying something like, “what? Really, man? Everyone in the quadrant could see them flirting. They were always having lunch and having like, weird, little, innuendo laden chats.”
Hey, I know Babylon 5 is a fun punchline, but at the same time DS9 was airing, B5 had major character that was bi/pan*, references to same-sex married couples, and an AIDS-analog episode that was a lot stronger and more emotional than one Enterprise would do a decade later. The creator and showrunner would later go on to work with The Wachowskis on Sens8.
* Well, telepathy was involved, so it's hard to say if the relationship may have been a one-off or not, but still.
Huh, I'd never heard of B5 as a punchline, more as an unsung masterpiece that never got the admiration it deserves (season five notwithstanding.)
That said, thought, it's "under the radar"-ness probably helped with it's ability to be so progressive
Ivanova and talia was actually agnowledged that she was atracted and loved her. I mean talia, yeah, but it was agnowledged that they were going to be liely an item when they went to live together.
@@marocat4749 sadly WB enforced strict boundaries on that storyline. Without that short leash Talia actress Andrea Thompson might have stayed on the show for a meatier part than what she was given. Would have been interesting to see how the story would have gone differently. Where were her telekinetic abilities going? Would she have fully replaced Lyta? Would she have gone to the vorlon homeworld and be altered instead?
@@memento81 The real unsung pairing were Londo and G'Kar anyway....
Loving the fact that Andy apparently decided 'well, if Berman's not gonna canonize this, I'll do it myself'.
Modern Conservatives: "I don't like 'New Trek' it's so SJW!"
Everyone else: 🤔🙄
I mean, you can understand why. The show was held back from pushing boundaries in any significant areas for over a decade. At best they were allowed to talk about gay and trans people in euphemism. New trek is largely making up for lost time so to a conservative it's probably pretty jarring.
@@SapphWolf So, the race and diversity stuff from ToS wasn't boundary pushing? Sure, they were held back in some ways. But they did push the race boundary in many ways throughout ToS, TNG, and DS9 (Not a big Voyager fan, so can't speak to that series). Even the choice of casting Avery Brooks in 1993 was a huge deal, and the studio wasn't a fan of the idea.
Looking at Star Trek from a more broad perspective, it seems naive to mark a specific series where social justice was a "new thing." Roddenberry knew that finding delight and common ground in our differences is the only way peace and equality can be accomplished for all (and said as much). Which seems like the worst nightmare for any bigoted exclusionary group who might toss around the term SJW in a derogatory way.
Modern Conservative is an oxymoron lol
They're just SQWs (status quo warriors) that don't want anything to ever change, ever, out of some reactionary fear that lifting others up means being pushed-down themselves. They don't and won't see liberation as anything other than a zero-sum game where there must be a winner and a loser; one with and one without, freedom itself. But to conservatives, freedom is the freedom *to* oppress others, while for everyone else, freedom is the freedom *from* oppression itself.
@@satyasyasatyasya5746 Well yeah... the term "conservative" denotes a resistance to change, or at least too much change at once.
@@Futt.Buckerson Well, it ought to, but it kinda doesn't. Its almost an aversion to *positive* change in reality. I mean, you'd think CONSERVatives would for example want to CONSERVE the environment, but nope, they couldn't care less and are always the ones to sell-off public land, or pollute etc. so that kind of change, they're totally on board with. Ugh.
I now just get a headache every time anything about Trek discusses Rick Berman. Sigh.
I am extremely excited for this one. I have been perpetually rewatching DS9 since the show went off the air. The banter between Garak and Bashir is endlessly entertaining. Of course, I share an equal love for the verbal gymnastics between Odo and Quark as well.
Odo may have been my first TV crush, such a stoic man with a warm gooey center somewhere deep down... Mmmm...
@@Futt.Buckerson "with a warm gooey center"
...literally? :P
@@DrTssha wait, what temperature *is* Odo?
Or kira , its wholesome that kira of all characters got to have the most exciting love life. Startreks best female strong character personally.
The Odo/Quark relationship was fun to watch.
To be honest: It‘d had been cool to know if there are gay klingon and how they relationship would had looked like. Maybe like the bond between gay samurais in the feudal japan but more … well, Klingon-style? Or what if Dex‘s new host was male. So many possibilities ran through they hands because someone wanted to play safe. 😏
Joke's on you, Rick Berman. You introduced Seven of Nine, now canon bisexual.
As a Sid City Social Club member who got to watch Little Achievements live (both times) I'm just... absolutely giddy. I still have hope that some time in the future one of the big canon Trek shows will confirm them. Sid and Andy both said with the right script they'd reprise the characters in a heartbeat.
I'd be worried about that -- I don't want them to kill either of them off.
Siddig is mid-50s and still young enough to reprise Bashir. Robinson is pushing 80, not sure if he can do Garak any more.
@@pedrovargas2181 Iiiii dunno about that, Andy's still pretty spry and teaching physical comedy classes to 20-somethings.
Garak is actually my all-time favorite Star Trek character.
Garak and Weyoun were my favorite characters
DS9 is my favorite Star Trek, and knowing how Rick Berman fucked it all up makes me SO angry on a regular basis
Also the fact that Sid AND Andrew are still super into Garashir to this day shows just how ready they were to take the plunge!!
Dax death,wormhole issue.Captain's son. 😐
Tell me about it. Berman fucked over all the best of Trek, and destroyed so much that could have been amazing. My favorite is Voyager, so you can imagine how much I despise that SOB
@@PS-dm1dq a moment of silence 😔
@@AllenTax
To be fair, Farrel got a new gig on a new sitcom, led by Ted Danson, "Becker". Kept her working longer than DS9 had left.
They probably didn't have to kill her, but she has said she was struggling with her work schedule at the time.
Though it should also be said, her issues with Berman likely pushed her to find that new work, and may have been why she was killed off. So she couldn't come back.
Garashir or Barak?
"he's biting that female!" Gets me Everytime😂😂
Ughhh!! That was twenty seconds of dialogue and I FELT it in my spirit!! Me and my big brother always suspected Garak and Bashir were the best couple that didn't happen in Star Trek and to see the actors explore that potential just for a moment- PRICELESS!!
"...with my husband?!"
I audibly squealed with joy.
I'm genuinely surprised that the outro line wasn't, "I have to hem some pants."
(Some) straight folk: complaining about The Gays being 'forced down their throat' (kinky)
Also (some) straight folk: men biting females left and right
I mean.. they kind of are though... the Garak Bashier developement would have been great because it just worked ... the kiss between Jedzia and whoever that chick was? that's never not going to be eye rolling to me. Why? Because they did it JUST to have two women kissing.
I don't speak for everyone obviously, but I feel the same about straight couples. If the chemistry is there and plays out well then awesome... otherwise it's force, and inappropriate. It's the same reason I don't like the hero kissing his girl while explosions are going on around them... just there to check it off on the list.
@@saribeepo.o5111 the trills don't really have a sense of gender based attraction though. Even the retconned trill of TNG was like "wanna fuck, Beverly?" Despite the body they possessed being a female body.
Trills don't care about gender, as to do so would be illogical in a society where everyone are just genderless beings inside a gendered body.
I'd love for them to show up in Picard as a couple since that series is drawing in the old guard of trek to give them all a continued story line for us to see.
The one phrase that comes to mind whenever “Berman Trek” is talked about is “missed opportunities”. Every time there was a potential to be bolder and go farther in storytelling and character development in the shows, from TNG to ENT, Rick Berman shot them down, which cheated the writers, actors and the audience out of something amazing.
"HELL YES!" I shout-out, at the mere mention of Babylon 5. (ps B5 had Susan reveal she was bisexual in season 3!)
yes, when they were all telling delenn a never before shared secret: "I think I loved Talia". That was powerfull and sad.
Leave it to a dry, white, straight, sexist showrunner to hold-back a show about a future where diversity, tolerance, love, friendship and justice are supposed to negate all biases, ignorance and predjudices... Renegade Cut has a good video or two on how Berman ruined so much of Star Trek.
You think his whiteness makes him homophobic?
@@Dan-vo7vc It sure doesn't help. Straight, cis, white men are treated as the default and don't see the importance of representation, because they have never lacked it. I am quite sure his whitness served as a further barrier to developing empathy for minority concerns. Mine did.
@@Dan-vo7vc yes, of course, thats exactly what I said... ugh
No, but it (and the other things I listed) makes his apathy towards or blindness about, issues of visability all the more potent. He isn't among any minority thats faced any kind of oppression or demand of justification so he hasn't needed to develop any awareness or empathy about it. He just hand waves it all away because he never had to learn to care about any of it.
@@satyasyasatyasya5746 thank you
...except that's not born out in the world, at all, or maybe you need to travel more. You're commenting about someone you don't know at all, attributing his bigotry, at least in part, to his race. Imagine for one moment if you did the same for any other group. I know it's very en vogue right now, but that kind of sloppy, discriminatory rhetoric ruins the point you're trying to make, and adds zero to the conversation.
Fun weird fact: Mulder/Scully was the first ship to widely use the term "shipping." The second one was.... Jessie/James from Pokémon.
Oh my god, because it would be Rocketshipping.
@@SpiffierShindigs OUCH.
take your upvote, Mewdammit! LOL
@@SpiffierShindigs fun fact, that was the ships name lol.
Then Supernatural fans said "Hold my pie."
This is one of my fave videos you've ever done. So glad that the actors that played Garak and Bashir did those virtual live readings of fanfic of them as a married couple
I saw that reading as it was happening and I teared up YoY They look at each other so fondly. They have soft energy around each other, but Robinson managed to always keep an edge to Garak. Like a domesticated panther. What a performance.
as they say, the real villain in Star Trek was Rick Berman.
Rick Burpman
Why? Because he didn't want to have the series canned for the backlash and loss of sponsors ? 🙄this was the sixties for fks sake.
Rick Berman is an anagram of creepy studio nonce...
Give or take a letter or two
@@snapdragon9300 this show is KNOWN for pushing barriers. Yea, he's the damn villain, but Berman gonna Berman.
I'm so incredibly glad you talked about Little Achievements!! Watching their reenactment of that script made my heart so full. Being young, queer, and a huge fan of DS9, and seeing the actors who portrayed the characters I love really invest themselves in a truly queer storyline was everything to me.
(P)Rick Berman is singlehandedly the most gutless sycophant in all of Trek. I'm amazed he can hide his contempt for our existence.
On a lighter note, I love the way Janeway sinsterly said, "delete the wife". Oh, don't we all wish it was that easy? LMAO
The reading of that line made me chuckle as well. The sinister horniness of it is delightful... ;)
Andrew Robinson: I consent
Alexander Siddig: I consent
Rick Berman: I don't
The whole video was an emotional roller coaster. I’m the begging I’m screaming and fangirling over the gay and by the time we get to the actors reading that story I’m crying. I’m so glad I got this I’m my UA-cam recommended!
Honestly, I can't read Bashir or Garak as straight *or* gay, Julian flirts with everything that can possibly consent and Garak's been trained to charm everyone he meets. I think what's magical about Bashir/Garak to me isn't that they're emotionally entangled and super queer, it's that despite their entanglements, Garak seems super cool with Bashir flirting with everything that moves and frankly, the whole thing dripped with a post-modern metropolitan pansexual polyamorous vibe that I'm super into. I'm just sad we never got to see the 5 way date of Garak and his boyfriend Bashir and his girlfriend Ezri and his boyfriend Miles and Miles' wife Keiko.
Bashir is bi and Garak is pan. You cannot convince me otherwise.
Don't forget Miles and Keiko's girlfriend Kira.
@@TheGFeather is DS9 just one big polycule
@@taitaisanchez yes
Get out of my mind! It's exactly as I picture them, a big happy policule in space!
What a fun video! Props to Shatner for ruining the alternate scene to force their hand. I would have never expected that of him. Cool!
My favorite of all of the _Star Trek_ shows! Very well researched, Matt! Thank you so much for this!
❤🧡💛💚💙💜🖖😍❤🧡💛💚💙💜
OMG these emotes 😍😍😍😍😍
Bashir and Ezri never clicked with me. For me Bashir was defined through his augment backstory and his relationships and friendships with Garak and O'Brien. And I'm straight like a line.
*Rick Berman:* No way we're casting a man as Riker's love interest.
*Jonathan Frakes:* Do you believe in the power of a curse?
“Is it ever possible to feel safe in your own home?”
“HE’S BITING THAT FEMALE!” is now my favorite thing to yell out at random, especially when there’s a particular couple who just can’t seem to separate from each other’s lips in public.
Nice, but I don't think Berman can be forgiven in certain regards.
You mention Bryan Fuller in this video, would you ever consider doing a video on the Hannibal series?
Don't forget the episode of TNG where Riker hooked up with a "non - gender" alien (who had a phallus) who was taken back to its planet and "Reeducated", Riker tried to save it but was too late. That was the closest to pro LGBTQ star trek had gotten by that point.
For the record, I love both B5 and DS9. They’re both fantastic! I recommend them both to everyone who is exceptionally intelligent and enjoy creative storytelling
Bashir is clearly at least bi, given how much he flirts with Jadzia and has a new girlie every episode.
I'm a big endorser of Bi Bashir for sure 💞 Love it
@@Atreides42 Bishir anyone?
Let's not forget how friendly he got with Chief O'Brian
Disaster bi 💕
Well they both are. yeah, show gave them both girlfriends. But they are straight FLIRTING early on. They can "change" it later all they want, but it happened. They're bi.
matt, i adore your vids and Star Trek is my bread and butter. can't wait for this one :)
tbh it wasn't just garak and bashir half the ds9 cast was trying to be the first gay star trek
Between all the gay flirting and everything, and all the gender exploration, it's honestly amazing how gay DS9 feels even in spite of Berman.
They should have made Garrick and Bashir a couple at the end. Bashir grabbing Garrick and giving him a big kiss would have made the finale blow up.
I totally had a crush on Bashir... he is such a sweet level headed quiet guy with those beautiful eyes... sigh...
Is it me or did Rick Berman want Star Trek to be walking boob stands and pew pew. Kind of the opposite of the "experience" GR was looking for. It seems to be a very Paramount 'friendly' take though.
I literally just finished watching Picard a few hours ago and when I saw Seven and Raffi hold hands at the end my little gay brain just exploded. I was so happy to see it. Love your videos Matt, I have been going through them now for the last few weeks. Thanks. 👍
But that hand holding scene came out of nowhere though
As a priest in the Church of the Algorithm, I bless this video with a comment.
*scrolling through the comments* wait, nobody's mentioning Q??
This video turned more beautiful than I would have imagined.
I always loved Garak and Bashir together, there was so much chemistry.
The actors reading that fanfic was so sweet🥰
I will never stop shipping Garak and Bashir