Elmer Keith: Jack O’connor’s Nemesis
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years, I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, become an integral part of our ecosystem, and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see and survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish, or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
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I had as an associate, a fascinating, eccentric fellow from Idaho, who told me an interesting quote he attributed to Elmer Keith. Elmer was supposed to have had a custom rifle made. An admiring friend was supposed to had said" Isn't that rifle too pretty to shoot?" Elmer was reported to have said, " Ever seen a girl too pretty to Kiss?" I don't know if this is true, but I like it and thought I would share this.
That's my philosophy, too!
I visited Elmer at his home in Salmon City in 1974. A very interesting and engaging gentleman. I don’t think he told lies. I think he told what he lived.
Never got to meet Mr. Keith but I know the toughness of his generation. My Grandma was born in the 1890’s, my momma’s momma, and my dad was born in 1910.
I’ve seen a man needing dentures sit in a barber chair and have his teeth pulled out with a pair of pliers. Seen folks who had set their own fractures and never missed a day of work.
The times they lived in were truly remarkable. Two world wars, the Great Depression, and going from coal oil lanterns to electricity. Talk about a change.
You can consider me an Elmer Keith fan. My deer rifle is a .338 Win Mag and my anti personnel handgun is the .41 Remington Magnum. That’s another of Mr. Keith’s creations. The ballistics he wanted mimicked what the .40 S&W is today basically. Too bad Remington messed it up and S&W made the gun an N frame instead of the K frame like he wanted.
He truly was a great innovator.
Elmer was the man behind the model 29, and Jack did alot of good for winchester. Both men were good for the sport.
And my favorite the .41 mag.
Legends
44mag, still king ta me
Elmer claimed to have spent four years helping design the Model 70 Winchester. I take his word for it even if they only major changes between the Model 70 and the Model 54 were the bolt throw angle, safety, trigger and the stock design. Elmer liked his Model 70s in .375 H&H or .458 Winchester Magnum, or .338 Win Mag for rabbits and such while Jack preferred the .270.
@blackpowder4016 Elmer made a lot of tall tales. He didn't design or help on the 70.
Elmer in his book RIFLES FOR LARGE GAME: “I went over the original draft of [the Model 70] and know that the group of riflemen who designed it did not advocate the present wing safety, which interferes with low scope mounting.” Winchester didn't get around to changing the safety until several years later.
Keith also noted: “The 98 Mauser action is my personal preference in a modern bolt action…. The [Mauser] will handle gas from a punctured or defective primer better than any bolt action I have used…. And more important, there is an integral ring inside of the receiver that greatly strengthens the weakest portion of a bolt action. The barrel diameter covers the entire rimless cartridge case, right up to the extractor cut…. The Winchester Model 70 action is made of the finest steel and is perfect in most details [but] will not handle a possible gas-escape as well as the Mauser.
So if he designed the 70, why not make it with those things he wanted and liked???
One of my many fond memories from my grandpa who died before I really had a chance to dig into his deep knowledge and memory bank, was of a story he told me about a time he was deer hunting with my grandma and my mom, (mom is now 70 years old, born in ‘52), when she was about two or three years old. My grandpa, a huge Jack O’Connor fan, just got a new 270 from Sears, a Winchester model 70 copy outfitted with a telescopic sight. They lived in New Mexico at the time, near the city known today as Truth or Consequences, but back then it was called Hot Springs. My grandpa parked his car near the crest of a hill just before it breaks into a wide open draw with the opposing side about the same in elevation as where he was. He fired at a mule deer across the draw and missed. He fired again and missed. Fired a third time and missed yet again. This kept going as the deer scattered and my grandpa kept cranking rounds into the dirt. Meanwhile, my mom, who was still learning how to count, told her mother with each shot, “one deer. Two deer. Three deer. Four deer. Five deer. A whole buncha deer!” At that time she’d only learned to count to five and my grandpa fired 16 rounds before he was able to anchor one.
Turns out the telescopic sight that came on the rifle hadn’t been zeroed. Still to this day there’s a sears catalog page torn out sitting in the wooden rifle case with that rifle and the words “sight already adjusted for extreme precision upon delivery” circled in pencil.
Not sure why, but this story came to mind while watching this video. Thank you for the memories.
Great story. That's a reminder why you always zero your rifle scope yourself. Always. 🤘
Great story! Back when you could order freedom from a catalog
@@hoosierdaddy2308 trust, but verify.
Those Sears rifles were top quality. They were made by Winchester and were indeed model 70's with the Sears stamped label. Great story. Thanks for your post.
@@roninkraut6873 totally! Wouldn’t it be nice to have that again?
One was a very educated college level English Professor, and the other was a simi literate cowboy. Both were legends in their own time.
“In there own time” it was the same time lol
I think Keith was a little more colorful.
What is " Simi " literate ?
Simi literate. The irony is palpable.
Why do we keep with the “Napoleon syndrome” comparison? The dude was TALL for his era!
The dichotomy between Jack and Elmer is really telling in how they viewed guns and hunting in general. Jack being an academic preferred a lighter gun/caliber because he viewed it as sport. Elmer viewed it as life and death. Being a professor they usually work in the theoretical. One works when everything is perfect, the other just works.
Good video Ron. I'm 67 now and brought my son up reading Elmer and Jack. Two things about Elmer I think a lot of people miss is that first of all he was a meat hunter when meat was the difference between eating or going hungry. Second of all Elmer didn't have the same quality of bullets that we have today. My son once posted a very favorable statement about Jack O'Connor on a forum. The next day he got a very polite email from his son Brad thanking him for keeping his dad's memory alive. Brad was a perfect gentleman and I'm sure that's the way Jack brought him up.
I grew up in Salmon ID, and my dad was friends with Elmer. He was very gruff, but when I was in his trophy house (yes, a whole house) and asked him about the animals and where he got them (like a 13ft tall Polar Bear), he would settle down and tell the most amazing stories! Man how I miss those days, and those characters!
Did you know Gene Hussy ??
Question, a friend passed away, in his belongings were some of his dad's "drawings", he did professional adds, before cameras were good enough to take photos (1950s).
One of his drawings I got was a Colt SSA gold engraved (looks like a photo) on the back was "Elmer Keith", any thoughts? Dedication? Or perhaps a drawing for a magazine showing Elmer's revolver???
I have ZERO clue to its significance. But, interesting piece for sure.
Ron, I was born in Salmon and my dad was friends with Elmer . The first time I met Elmer ,he and my dad were discussing different calibers of rifles. My dad preferred flat shooting longer range calibers such as the 270 or 25-06 and so Elmer and my dad had many discussions about large bore and smaller bore comparisons. I was only about 12 years and at that time I wasn’t aware of Elmers reputation as a writer and such,but he and my were good friends and had many conversations about hunting and different caliber comparisons. I must say my first impression of Elmer at my young age was,why is he carrying that big pistol in town , anyway thought you might enjoy my first impression of Elmer coming from a young lad lived in Salmon.
Elmer Kieth was a hero of my brother and I and we read everything we could by him. His distance shooting with a 6 gun influenced us the most especially the 400yd running coyote shot as well as the 600yd elk shot and handloaded thousands of rds trying to recreate those shots. He said your luck getting better the more you shoot. True.
I just started reloading because of you. Started with 9mm a few months ago… I’m up to 5 calibers now. I absolutely love it. Thank you! I like reloading almost as much as shooting.
When you start handloading is when you really begin to learn about guns/shooting.
This the kind of person we need more of in todays world. Someone with a set! Ron could read the whole book and I’d listen to it.
Always read Elmer and Skeeter Skelton articles back when I first started reloading, enjoyed their insight on reloading. 78 now kind of hard getting around, but still enjoy shooting.
I used to read every word they both wrote. Jack O'Connor was more unassuming and simple, IMO. Keith was more brash and bold. Jack O'Connor would hunt anything with a 7x57mm or .270 Win. Keith wanted a sledge hammer "just in case".
They were all great. My heroes as a young man. I waited for the gun magazines every month. (I think my father subscribed to all of them, at least the big ones). I also liked Skeeter Skelton, Charles Askins and Bill Jordan .
The Keith style SWC cast bullet is certainly one of the best and I still cast them for loading my .38/.357 and .44 caliber handguns.
I would love for you to cover Townsend Whelen some time! He was my favorite gun guy along with jack O’Connor.
Love Townsend, but my favorite is an unknown called Francis E. Sell. The best resource for timber hunting I've found. The first hunting book I ever owned was The Deer Hunters Guide, and when I first read it 20 years ago all his minutia on proper noise, thermal drift, and mirroring game movement was hard to digest. Been exclusively hunting bush for 15 years now, and the longer I do it the more I realize he was a genius.
Ron, your copy looks nearly as beat up as mine. Thanks for the story and all that you bring us!!!
Elmer was a good friend of a mate.Nick has told me many of their escapades.When I visit Nick I see photos of Elmer,Bill Jordan,Charlie Askins.
Ron--You should read the book for audible so we can listen to it while driving to hunting camp!!
My late friend's mother moved from Boston to Montana as a child; they took a train, a stage, a wagon and finished their trip on horse back to get to their ranch...
Reading his stuff when I was a kid got me started in handgun hunting and introduced me to the 338 I'm still in love with both.
I'm fortunate to have both of Elmer's books . I also load "Kieth" bullets for my 357 and 44. I'm often asked if i''ll part with the books and my answer is No... some things you just don't part with. Thanks for another great video Ron.
"Both"? Elmer wrote at least a half-dozen books.
Back in the early 60s I always read Elmer's column first when my Guns and Ammo mag arrived... 🙂
Very enjoyable Ron!
I met Mr. Keith back in 1977 when he put on a seminar in Dallas, Texas. That morning he autographed books from 09:00 to about 13:00 and there wasn't a lot of people since it was a Tuesday morning. I really had him all to myself except when a banker came in for about 30 minutes. He was very easy to talk with, seemed like we'd known each other for a long time, kind of like talking with my grandfather, who was about the same age. He confided that a lot of the shots he wrote about was a lot of luck but, as he shot daily, he had better luck than most!😉😄
Would like to meet you too as you seem to be a down to earth type fellow! Keep up the good work.
Thank you Ron for bringing Elmers book back to life. I read it some 20 years ago and decided then I had to have a 340wby and hell I bought one! Haha.Still have it. Thanks for this excellent episode. Good hunting to you sir!
I’m a proud owner of several autographed copies of his books. I corresponded with him back in the 80’s while I was recovering from burns I sustained in an oilfield fire so could identify with the experience of being burned. I agree that some of what he wrote stretches credulity but it didn’t detract from my enjoyment of his writing. His writing stimulated my interest in long range revolver shooting and opened my eyes to what is really possible with a handgun with enough practice. Two other eye opening books on handgun shooting are “Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting” by Ed McGivern,
and Bill Jordan’s book, “No Second Place Winner”, about gun fighting.
Another good read is Col. Charles Askins book “Unrepentant Sinner”, though it may not be to everyone’s taste.
I discovered Elmer at the end of his life, reading a few Guns and Ammo mags when i was 12- in our church school, no less (never happen today). A couple of the mags were a year or 2 old. Found a few older ones at a thrift store later, and read his columns.I have read a couple if his long range handgunning articles, and i know a little bit about his involvement in the OKH cartridges. And of course, the 44 and 41 Magnums. I heard he had a kaboom in his early experiments with hit 45's, blowing out the cylinder and bending the top strap on an SAA. This induced him to go to 44 Spl, and not use ballonhead cases. Don't know if that is in the book or not. I have inly read 1 or 2 of Jack's articles. Never found too many vintage Outdoor Life issues. Both were icons, and incredibly knowledgeable and experienced.
Story time with Uncle Ron. 👍👍
I don't think I've ever heard so much that I didn't know about Elmer Keith before tonight. There is so much to respect about Keith and O'Connor and deep down I think they respected each other and even at times had some admiration for their strong suits. I grew up an O'Connor fan personally. We couldn't afford the magazine so I would ride my bike down to the library and our librarian Miss Cruise would always have it behind the counter waiting for me on day one. I can't tell you how repetitively I read those magazines and she would give me most of the old ones to haul home. But I digress because this is in honor of Elmer Keith. I'll be grabbing that book 👍. Thank you Ron.
Delightful !!
I was a personal friend of Jack Rush Elmer and Jack were friends so I was gifted to hear some great stories surrounding their friendship
Wow that was really entertaining, you sure have a knack for reading and telling a story! Your confidence in communication is surely a gift.
👆🏻Scam
@Text +① (⑦⑦⑤) ③①②-②①⑨⑦ Scam. Sorry these scammers keep doing this.
Elmer and Jack were my idols growing into my shooting interest. Along with others like Bill Jordan, Jeff Cooper and Skeeter Skelton. No one will match what those few have accomplished! Great book by the way!
Big Fan of both Elmer and Jack, to icons for sure. I remember watch Jack O`Conner with his sons hunting big horn sheep on TV I think it was Rainbow productions on sunday morning with my Dad a brother, tried to find videos or cd' s but could not find any. Great memories, love the mod29 coupled with a cast 250gr bullet with 22grs of 2400, not all that fond of the 270 win. But way back then if you wanted a fairly flat shooting caliber the 270 with 130gr bullet was really all you had in a commercial produce rifle. Miss the old days!
I picked up a copy of this book several years ago but have not read it yet. My library is quite large, on a lot of different topics, but now this has just got a bump in the list of what needs to be read. I read a lot of Elmer's articles back in the day and always loved his story telling.
Great book
Good commentary Ron.
My husband has the book, he loves it , New Zealand
What a wonderful episode. Thank you!!
I still load my 44 to Elmers load if it's good enough for him it's good enough for me. I also have both of his books very good reading.
I served in the Marine Corps. I had a copy of "Hell, I was there". That copy accompanied me on several deployments. Okinawa, the Mediterranean ocean, Desert Storm. The book finally fell apart. By then it was out of print. I would love to find another copy. I wish someone would reprint it.
Thanks, this brought back a lot of fond memories.
I knew there was something I liked about you; besides our mutual appreciation for good, old, solid, well made Winchester and Mauser bolt action rifles that is. I haven't cracked the cover of Hell, I Was There in over a decade, but it still sits in its spot on the shelf waiting there for me to reread it for the umpteenth time again. I was introduced (reading wise) to both Keith and O'Connor a long time ago as I used to save up my .25¢ weekly allowance to buy Field & Stream, Outdoor Life and Sports Afield in the early '50's as a kid. It was Keith who was the one who influenced my preference for semi wadcutters in revolvers. In fact, when they came out (in limited production) I bought a 6½" bbl Smith & Wesson Model 24, their reissue of the 1950 Target that Keith had used to work on his idea for the .44 S&W Magnum that he presented to them. His load for it was 18 grains of Hercules 2400 for the .44 Special and 22 grains of 2400 for the .44 Magnum after Smith and Remington made the round for about the same velocity with 240 gr. semi wadcutters. I found a little less 2400 to be more accurate in my particular gun - xx.x grains.
Big fan. Nice to see respect for a national icon.
Grew up, wanted to bee hunter and shooter reading his articles in G&A arround the 1960's 70's and on, before reliable expanding jacketed bullets, Elmer promoted big bore cast bullets, eventualy jacketed bullets improved and remember promoting the 333OKH, still a medium bore over Jack's 270, High speed smaller expanding bullets took a time to catch on, AND the came Weatherby !!!!
I thank God for Elmer Keith's .44 mag load. Excellent. 22 gr, Herc 2400 has been great for me.
I thank God for Jack O'Connor and the Win .270.
I have always been a big fan o f old Elmer .44 magnum Keith.
Ron,
Elmer's my hero. In my teens (late 1960s) a friend of my father gave me and my brother a trunk full of American Rifleman magazines from the 20's to the 1960's. Lots of Elmer material there! I have all of Elmers books except the one called "Africa" and the 2nd book of "Gun Notes." Nine years before "Hell, I was there", he wrote a autobiography. It's different from "Hell, I was there." I like big bores. I've put together Remington 760s in 358 Win, 338-08 and 35 Whelen. With big bullets you can eat right up to the holes. Right next to the Elmer section in my book shelf is the John Barsness section. John has a lot of insight into rifles, shotguns and hunting. He's also really funny. You should have him him on your podcast.
s Van Kauwenbergh
I really enjoy your videos and especially this one on Elmer Keith. Keith had 2 friends, Hopkins and O'Neill that together they were working up new cartridges and bullets. One of the friends was a machinist and the other the money man. What most people don't know is that in the late 1930's they were experimenting with copper monolithic bullets. The bullet had grooves in the shank like a cast bullet (like a Barnes?). This was mentioned in a Keith article in American Rifleman IIRC about 1938. Keith mentioned that they worked well but were too expensive to make. Is there a mention in his books about these bullets?
I used to have a magazine collection with the American rifleman starting in the mid-thirties but passed them on to a friend.
Then there is the 1898 Belle D Bronze bullet the French loaded in the Lebel.
I wish I could have met the man, but sadly he passed when I was 3 years old. One fact that gets glossed over about Elmer Keith vs Jack O'Connor was the lifestyle. While Jack certainly made a name for himself hunting the world (and Elmer was able to do the same to a much lesser extent) Keith was in on the shooting of a lot more animals due to his work and experience as a guide as well as his job hunting meat. He saw clients shoot deer and elk with all manner of cartridges, and Keith would be the one who got the client to the animal and the shot. So to say it a bit better, Keith spoke from the guide point of view and O'Connor spoke from the client point of view.
Thanks Ron for telling more about Elmer , always wondered about how he got to make the 44 mag and 357 mag . Now I understand now why he did it . Also the type of cast bullets he came up with , I cast them also.
I have read that book twice. Its been years ago now. The fight story that I remember best is when two older bullies were bullying him and his brother. It was in Missouri before they moved to Montana so he was very young. He and his brother went to the local wheelwright and got two hickory wagon wheel spokes. Then hunted up the two bullies and about beat them to death. Elmer said they never had any trouble in that town again! 😂
Someone already said it but growing up in the 70s and 80s Elmer was and still is a hero to me. Nothing wrong with Jack but for me it was Elmer.
I loved that Book!
So cool listening to stories about famous Keith kinfolk : )
I have 2 rifles and 1 pistol chambered in my favorite cartridge, the .44 Rem Mag. Thank you Elmer!!
Great book. Read it many times
Have to get that one. I love his "Sixguns".
What an excellent video Ron. Keith supposedly used his M-29 S&W with 4" bbl to make that 600 yard shot. Brian Pearce wrote a great article about it in which he tried to repeat the shot using a deer target. He also said it was an S&W 29/4" 44 magnum, and that is what he used to do his recreation.
Was he able to make the shot during the recreation?
I have a Savage 99 that was Elmer Keith's. Beautiful rifle.
Another outstanding and informative video. Which i expect nothing less than excellence from your videos. And you always deliver that excellence Ron. Hope you’re doing well.
Out of curiosity is that a bullet hole in your UA-cam plaque on your wall or am I just seeing things? Lol
Due to my age and start to hunting, I never really heard much about Elmer Keith. This was a great episode thanks Ron!
RSO is this spam, sorry??
I think about Elmer when l strap on the 44mag. He was definitely an true American character.
Oh by the way, the Cabela's store in Boise, ID has a great display of Elmer sitting at a very rudimentary desk looking right at you with a glassed/secured display of geez maybe 30 or so of his various handguns. Many of them N framed Smith and Wessons that belonged to Elmer. A really lovely display and well worth the trip to see it !!
I STILL kick myself for seeing a copy of HELL I WAS THERE in a Goodwill Store and NOT buying it. One of the genuine "DUH" moments of my now 66 year old life. I do have SIXGUNS though; one a recent paperback reprint and the other a hardback bought back when I was 16 years old. Although I have CCW carried auto pistols (XD's and 1911's), my favorite carry guns remain a S&W 66, and S&W 625 45 ACP, and substituting for a S&W J-frame, a bobbed hammer, blued Taurus 85. Yeah I know that Taurus revolvers can be bad, but this 85 must have been made on a Wednesday, because it has worked flawlessly for 25 years, and is ACCURATE. When roaming the back country I often carry a Uberti Remington Army .44 cap and ball, loaded with conicals, which is a very potent accurate weapon, when properly loaded as in the 19th Century. I blame the Elmer "brainwashing" starting in my teens, reading his articles for my "revolver fixation". I'm subscribing; thanks for keeping Elmer alive and in front of all the youngsters who need to know him.
My dad was an old-time hunter from Leadville Colorado, and he called Elmer "a famous Bullshitter"!
As a 5ft 6in individual myself, along with my younger brother, I'll agree to the napoleon complex. Too many 6ft tall men with something to prove out there to not be that way on occasion, however Elmer might have built a living off of it. Great video as usual Ron.
I really enjoyed story time.
My hero is all old timers
Once I my younger days I had a similar experience on a whitetail doe. The bullet entered right about its rectum and exited through its sternum. She was shot with a 308 using and 165 grain btsp. The outcome in this case was a good one but not something I ever want to try again but that’s the kind of thing that can haven to a young fist time hunter.
One of the Great Legends in his own mind! Grandpa met him at an NRA event way back when. Treated Granpa poorly also my Uncle met him and was also treated very poorly. Not a very impressive man. You mention how tough he was, well when you are dumb you gotta be tough. Elmers' personal "truth" trumped any facts that exist.
I'm sure Ron Spomer has a few stories that he hasn't written about or shown in a video. Maybe Ron should write a book called I was there too! LOL
Elmer and the .44 Magnum.
Jack O'Conner the only rifle he had was his trusty Winchester Model 70, in 270.
Both are great gun scribes, and well worth reading.
My cousin, when it came to mischief, would always say, "Let's not, but say we did". That would be a good book title.😉
I read a lot of his articles. He was much interested in deep penetration as a killing mechanism over rapid expansion. I recall him writing that he made some explosive bullets by putting a percussion cap over a small powder charge in a hollowed out buffalo caliber bullet. He noted that the bullets would blow a big chunk of meat off the target, but it would not be seriously wounded, whereas a big solid would punch on through and cause death. This was one of the reasons he made his semiwadcutter design. It would punch a good hole in the target & drive deep. His "shooting the wrong end" was probably taking the first shot presented as he was meat hunting, not the best practice surely, but it worked for him as he did not starve to death. Some of his necropsy work may be on how the game was when he found it, not from the initial wound, surely no creature can work its legs with an inch of missing spinal cord in its neck. As for the spinal shot, a bullet could traverse the length of the cord without "hitting" any more of the bones, but would surely have to skim several, save the entry and exit, but it would be, to say the least, miraculous since no spine is absoulutely straight.
I have not read his book, but I imagine he did not tell many stories of fights he lost.
Thanks for sharing.
The only Elmer stories I can contribute are not flattering ones. But before I relate them, I should provide a bit of background on the man who told them to me. On my first tour of active duty in 1978 I engaged the services of a local gunsmith to rebuild a new Colt Commander along the lines of one of Jeff Cooper's fighting handguns. I became a regular in his shop for years and learned a lot of interesting tidbits along the way. He had been a competitive pistol shooter in the Air Force and was in the first group of airmen that General LeMay selected to form the Air Force Gunsmith School. Their job was to build the best possible competition firearms for the Air Force Shooting Team because LeMay was determined the USAF become the top team in the world. This naturally attracted the interest of gun writers, one of whom was Col Charlie Askins. As result, he got to know Askins, but did not have a particularly high opinion of him (that's a story in itself that I won't go into here). Askins told him he tried to simulate Elmer's 600 yard handgun shot by mounting a 44 carbine on an angle-adjustable fixture to eliminate human error. He kept increasing the angle until it exceeded 45 degrees, but the bullet always fell short of the target. If any viewer is familiar with this test, maybe they can shed more light on it. As for me, I know from reading Ed McGivern's book that he and some friends often hit metal drums at 600 yards using 357 Magnums (though not offhand). Whatever the case, my gunsmith eventually wound up attending some industry or NRA sponsored function where alcohol was being freely distributed. He chanced upon meeting Elmer, who as usual, was sporting his ten gallon hat and big cigar. In their ensuing conversation he intimated in no uncertain terms that he considered Elmer a master BS artist, at which point a fuming Elmer Keith turned and walked away. That demon rum will get you every time. To be fair, all these men were flawed characters to some degree, but they contributed greatly to our understanding of firearms and ballistics through their experimentation and writing. Anyone today attempting to assume their mantle (and UA-cam is full of them) are doing so on the shoulders of these legendary and very colorful giants.
Hi Ron. I enjoyed this video. I've read a few different books from famous hunters that were in the same circles with Elmer and your presentation confirms what they've said. An amazing character with fascinating stories to tell. Elmer was also the brain behind the "Keith Bullet' which (in my opinion) revolutionized hard cast bullets. He was a bloody genius and I mean that in every interpretation of the phrase. Hope you are yours a doing well. Maple Leaf Up
Still need to sight in my new Browning 270 😎👍
Hell, I grew up on Elmer Keith & Jack O'Connor's,Warren Page. The God Father of SPEED, stories in Outdoor Life & Field & Stream and lets us not forget Guns & Ammo and to this day(at 78yo) they still come in the mail, I'v been a speed freak ,25/06, 243 W, 260Rem, 7mm/08, 223Rem. I my 60+ years of White tale hunting i never had to track a deer & all were One Shot Kills. No Lie GI😉
He was also a Handgun instructor at the FBI academy in Pocatello Id back in the late 50's early 60's. He was my Dad's instructor when he went through. I still have his book on handguns! I need to dig it out someday and see which one it is.
A friend of mine, who sadly just passed away, met both Jack O"Connor and Elmer Keith. He met O"Connor in Lewiston, Idaho and I don't know how or where he met Keith. Sadly, it's too late to ask him now.
That is a nifty squirrel gun Elmer has in the cover photo :)
Ok so I’m going to the library because the cost of this book used is outta my reach. Great video! Thank you again.
I've read the book twice. I'll never sell it. I agree, he was TOUGH. I had an old friend, maybe a bit of a bully, 5'9", that tried to impress Elmer, I don't think he got it done. I wish I had met him.
I remember the Cabela's in Boise had a small display room with Elmer Kieth memorabilia. I don't know what became of it, maybe after Bass Pro bought it out it went back to Elmer's family. I think they had his type writer and some other things. This was ten years ago.
One of my favorite books a must read... since your talking about books have you ever read shots at whitetails by Lawrence r koller..if not give it a try
Actually I would love to hear you go on and on about him.
I found a copy of his book on Amazon. But for $179 that's where it's going to stay.
Nice video, thanks for sharing it.
JT
It’s interesting to me that someone who could know so much about the outdoors and hunting could also know so little about the same subject (in today’s lens)
What is your point? Todays lens is all out to lunch, and those at that lunch should eat until they burst.
i sent elmer a letter back in the late 70's when i was in high school . asked him about loads and bullets for the 44 magnum . figured i would never get a reply from him . a mth latter i come home from school and mom asked me , ' who is elmer keith ? you got a letter from him . ' kept that letter until 14 yrs ago when it got lost or tossed out in a move . sent me 5 pages of load data and different bullets for the 44 magnum . and 1/2 a page of just general reply stuff , but i had his autograph ! i read that book back in the 80's still got it but sadly missing the jacket .
I learned to walk those 180 gr .44 mag slugs out of my M29 on to the target from Elmer.
Had that book, think I got it for signing up for a NRA membership. Late 1980's.
No elk
But processed plenty a deer where bullets have separated and lead core is on opposite side of animal.
Again it looked someone shot it with a 22 but just the core of a 06 or any other 30 cal.
It's bullet composition.
Manufacturers have done wonders.
Breathing new life into old calibers and . At least
Im sure those long range shots are on another side of the mountain and when they ranged it they had to go down a valley then back up a mountain, so their pace was actually half
Hi Ron around 10 years ago a friend of mine while we were out shooting shot a muntjac buck in the neck with a 270, 130 g nosler ballistic tip it went all the way down the spine and came out next to its rear end.
He also helped develop one of my fav rounds. 338-06
My friend and hunting buddy, Slim Randles, was contemporary with Elmer Kieth at Petersons hunting back in the day, He claims that he wrote "Hell I Was There". His story is that Peterson had a meeting about what to name the book. Apparently E.K. When certain situations were mentioned E.t. would say "Hell I was there". During the meeting When Peterson asked "What to name the book. Slim (Tongue in cheek) said "Hell I was there"" Slim says That Peterson shot him a dirty look but E.K. said "I like it put me down for that" and so that may be That E.K. liked it but Peterson did not.
A "canuck" is a slang term for a Canadian. Sometimes it's meant as a derogatory term but some Canadians use it with pride. It's possible the character Elmer encountered was Canadian born and earned that nickname.
On page 136 of that book, Keith begins telling the story of when he took Zane Grey and his party on a pack trip into the Big Creek area of the Middle Fork Of the Salmon River Territory. Grey wanted to visit the Thunder Mountain region on Monumental Creek to see the site of the 1902 gold rush to that area. He later wrote a novel called “ Thunder Mountain”. My mothers family was from the Salmon, Idaho area and her aunt and uncle were on that trip. Her aunt was the camp cook and the family story told about that trip was one night Zane Grey brought a catch of fish to the cook tent after she had closed it up. She basically told him to pound sand and clean the fish himself. Her husband was also along on that trip as one of the seven extra hands Keith hired for that trip. Zane Grey stiffed Elmer out of 1500 dollars on that trip, so it’s pretty likely that if he’d ever shown up again in that territory word would have gotten to Elmer Keith and he would have tried to collect the debt !!
Hell west and crooked was written by Tom Cole.
A canuck is a nickname for canadians, as well.
I read Elmer Keith's book on big game hunting. He preferred the big cartridges. He is the 'K" in the .333 OKH. .45-70, what we would call the straight wall cartridges today, such as .450 Bush Master and .350 Legend. A big and slow bullet that mushrooms. Especially since he was prone to butt shoot these animals, which were hardy.
As our dear own Ron Spomer can attest in his hunting a bull elk with his Mossberg Patriot 7 mm Rem Mag.
I don’t recommend an anus shot as it causes septic poisoning throughout the bullet travel route.
@@allannantes8583 Neither do I. Also, I don't know how that came to be called the Texas Heart Shot.
Too bad our society doesn’t tolerate swift justice men like Keith were willing to use, it would solve a great many problems.
My dad used to say 'That's 1 of those Elmer Keith/Roy Weatherby kind of arguments', which meant it was a debate that saw no end in sight because both schools of thought had some valid points.