0:00 John tells Ben Boyce about himself 3:43 _"If you are in a political fight, then you want a weapon. I don't feel like I give people weapons"_ The Hierarcy Church Fathers , Patriarchy Masculinity 16:00 An Act of Purity Ex. Asking guests to leave your house so you can go to bed Ex. Yelling out the window, telling someone to go away 20:08 The Leveling of Thought in the 2010's Mainstream - You Can't Level Everything, Hierarchy's are inescapable, life has distinct levels of being 25:44 The Family Unit (Love for the whole & love for the individual) Christianity works like that (Love the Trinity & love the 3 parts individually) Cohesion 27:59 Identity swallowed by 1 piece of the personality 31:28 38:20 Categorical Thinking 47:16 (1) Needs are powerful "You pray to open up a space for the divine to manifest itself" 52:58 Help people see the world differently 54:14 League of Legends analogy (?) This is getting Meta. They're having an interview about what it is like to be an interviewer 57:28 Jonathan Pageau's logo . The World is losing Femininity, it is less feminine than it used to be
Re: 33:40 timestamp: I am taking advantage of this pinned post to offer a link to an excellent essay that may interest some viewers. I highly recommend the following piece from Australian author Shannen Burns-"In Defence of the Bad, White Working Class". meanjin.com.au/essays/in-defence-of-the-bad-white-working-class/ What I love the most about it is Burns' deft use of the form of a critical literary essay to make a point against the ultra-PC policing of language that is filtering down on the lower echelons of society from academia. Perhaps a more word salady way of putting it is to say that "the essay takes the hegemonic power of Foucaudian discourse analysis to subversively disrupt the status quo of the demonstrably privileged educated classes." ... Urmmm... I think that says what I mean...Cannot be sure though... ;P
this did NOT disappoint even my already elevated expectations. I think this will be my go-to introductory video to introduce Jonathan Pageau. Benjamin is a master!
Paul VanderKlay I completely agree! I’ve been watching a lot of Jonathan’s videos and he has opened up so many things for me. This video feels like a perfect synopsis of all the things he talks about. I found him through JBP, who I have been following since 2016. Even after the hundreds of hours of time I have spent with both JBP and Jonathan, this video provided many new insights.
@David Chorak Jonathan's breakdown of love and Christianity was excellent. So few recognize how Jesus keeps playing with status (the greatest in the kingdom is the servant of all) and equality (no masters among you). Christianity is both order and freedom which is difficult for us to put together because for most of us order is the result of tyranny not voluntary-self-donating-submission.
“My wife has no time for my arrogance, and that’s really useful.” That’s a beautiful thing to say. Highlights the significance of Jonathon’s wife to his work, though she is not in the public eye as he is, she cultivates the space and private sphere of the home in which he flourishes... and we all benefit from their relationship.
yes. a good wife is not just valuable to her husband but being a correction and blast to her husband she also contributes to the functioning of society. We need to let women just how fulfilling and important that role can be.
@Isa I don't speak for all women. Neither of us do. Also I am a career woman who has an independent life as well as one as a wife and mother. It's just that the role of wife can be an important one. Let's support one another. No reason to get angry.
@Isa I don't see the need for all the mocking and expletives. We may not see eye to eye but I feel no need to insult you. I value your feedback but your words are so unnecessarily condescending. I want to hear what you have to say but please say it with the respect that everyone deserves.
As a woman, I agree with you, the world is lacking the feminine. In destroying space we kill the realm of relating and the possibility of knowing each other, being conscious. Without space we are cramped up against each other, we can’t see ourselves or others, we lose our separate faces, and without a face, a consciousness, God cannot bd manifest. Sorry. I feel like a student trying to paraphrase to you what I just heard. Love you guys so much!
O K How do you presume to know what is or isn't art odds with God? We cannot do that from our limited perspective, even less can we discuss it in our languages... Absolute cannot be delimited
@@mostlydead3261 haha what are you one about. It was written in Hebrew and Greek and has been translated to every language on Earth. Nothing of it originated in English or England.
Great video. So something like: masculinity is like building the house, while femininity is like turning it into a home. And we can take that home analogy and apply it to any level of existence where a center has to exist, whether its the formation of a personal identity, family, or community. Women articulate the process of meaning, which than turns the material structure built by man, into a spiritual structure that we call a home (and all prefer to live in). And that is why the soul is considered feminine, and the body masculine. And that's why you can say you're a feminist: you want to venerate this kind of cosmic homemaking, instead of downplaying it, as 4th wave feminism seems to want to do, by making women into another builder, leaving society in a state where it becomes a house, but never a home.
Benjamin, RE: the counter to hierarchy. In animal behavior science, there are two systems for avoiding intraspecific conflict: hierarchy and territoriality. Each bird and beast marks its own space by song or scat; a flock or pack often has a shared territory, but also individual dens. And like hierarchy, it extends well into a metaphorical or spiritual space; Stephen Pressfield, for example, says that the artist must explore deep into his own territory and not concern himself with placement in the hierarchy. There is a constant interplay and many ways to balance these factors, but they exist in all sentient life.
Perfect cross over ... I found so many of these wonderful, inspirational, brotherly creators by themselves.. all pioneering in their own right. And here they are all come together, on the frontier. I hope to settle this land that they have first set foot.
@@jarlnicholl1478 excellent avoidance of my counter question. But I will give you the time and answer your baseless and pointedly offensive assertions that I am a close minded ideological zombie. I simply spoke with poetic admiration for the two speakers given that they both are exploring the kinds of questions I yearn to find answers for; and there isn't a wealth of similar content creators like them. I was once a rational suicidal genocidal misanthrope and these fine gentleman aid me in devining meaning in this absurd existence. For me, personally, from the short sighted view I can spy from my little node, these men are in the vanguard. So I celebrate them .. you request that I get off my high horse using the Lobfathers own phrase and not your own, would suggest to me at least that you my friend are the one trapped in a sort of ideological honey pot. You demand I get off my high horse , well I say you'll have to do better than that to unsaddled me. Your claim of what's implicit snacks of the kind of omniscients that paranoid authoritarians attribute to things they don't like or understand. I tell you plainly that I do not place myself above these two men. You won't accept this because you know better? You can see what we all cannot!? Take me in good faith friend, here,take my hand there's room enough on this high horse for two! Now how about my first question?
@@Aquaticphilosophia I wasn't aware though haha ... Why is everyone so salty that I admire these two men? It's not brand new granted- correct! To me it is. I had no idea how applicable this lense was being brought up in sudo- Christian secular materialism Ireland.
@@benjaminlquinlan8702 I think its great you admire them. But if you like how JP thinks, Johnathan is in the Orthodox Church and is expressing the Church's understanding of reality in modern terms. The Church taught him to think like this. Yes, other forms of Christianity are incomplete, with horrific consequences, and it is tragic the actual lens of Orthodoxy was lost in the West, and good it is being rediscovered.
It sounds like when we talk about masculine and feminine he's talking about duality in general. How we need to harmonize the two, not mix them just in case that's what you're thinking.
33:40 this part stuck with me. I've been always close to people from other ethnicities or whatever, Im from Argentina, a nation founded by anglosaxons and then modernized spanish and italians; most people here are poor or middle class; there's a incredibly huge gap between making fun of someone because of their immediate features and being racist, and it is clear in the words we use and the way we say it, paraguayans make fun of argentinians and viceversa, bolivians, peruvians, chilean, uruguayan, colombians, to an extent, christians, evangelicals, jews, it doesn't matter, it's all in the spirit of being offensive to get a reaction, all of this, while having fun of course.The reason why I'm saying this is because a lot of people has a strange almost fetishistic approach to black people in North America, while in here they're treated like everyone else, and a common nickname they'll get is "negro", which means, you guessed it, black. And there's no problem with that, it is said in an amicable manner, the jew will be called "judío", the guy with very north european features would be called "gringo" or "tedesco" or "alemán", the italian will be called "tano", the guy with long hair and long beard (like me), will be called "Jesus" or "Muslim", and so on, no one gets offended by this, and if so, they'll be mock for behaving like a little kid. You anglos just don't know how to have fun! Even though a lot of canadians have french blood in them, conceiving them some sort of latin relief, you're being manhandled by "those". I hope that verming, that skit mark that is destroying our cultures eventually goes away...Logos is rising.
You have described to a tee the Australia I grew up in and am grudgingly admitting has been disappearing as the left has been increasing its death grip of PC censoriousness on our broadcast utilities, into business and education all of which dovetails with the arrival of new incomers beginning 20 or so years ago . We were also settled by anglo-saxons but built over 200 years primarily by anglos and irish with spatterings of chinese, afghans and germans then much later by a big influx of greeks, italians and eastern europeans. That style of good natured humour on differences you describe functioned very similarly with this ethnic diversity. The next major group to arrive, the vietnamese, appear to have adapted in the main, to this humour but since then it would be fair to deduce that succeeding incoming groups from a specific religious culture are not able to process this approach to interracial interactions.
@@Ariannaishun There's no more struggle to muddle through, and the powers that be are creating them between us, a constant state of alert and stress is needed for us to consume and create tensions with each other, at least that's what I think, it's horrible. I always saw Australia (even though I never visited it) very close to us South American countries, maybe it's because of our origins, I wish you the best.
Great discussion. In truth, there aren't many other channels where I can expect to listen to very nuanced discussions like this. --- And good to see you again, Benjamin.
Enjoying this exchange. There are just some conversations you wish you could be a part of and this is one of them. I wonder how you relate with the esoteric understanding of the masculine and feminine / Left brain / right brain and the wholeness of the holy union. Consider social conflict and the inflated ego being the destructive aspect that leads to all the sexual identity confusion. The growing complexity of gender identity seems like a chaotic reaction to the internal struggle between ego desires and soul needs. could purity be about returning to the original design? Is purity being confused with superior? The analogy I like to use is the Clay or play-doe if you will. When you buy a new pack you have all the colors separated. You can make all kinds of things by bringing the colors together for depth and contrast. After a while however the doe or clay begins to loose its original quality and the colors get so mixed there is no separation to distinguish or design versatile subjects. Eventually you have to go buy a new pack. We love all the colors of the rainbow but if you mix all the colors together you no longer have a rainbow. No color is more valuable than any other color, but everyone happens to have a favorite color, or a favorite flavor, or music or smell. Purity is actually about valuing the diversity by maintaining it. In this manner we learn to honor boundaries seeing the necessitate for them in order to honor what God has created from his original design. Billionaires, millionaires The capital system and the social structure for a healthy and peaceful existence. How does humanity maintain equanimity? When money is used to help facilitate social contracts for the purpose of improving the quality of life for all participants, the rules of engagement and exchange must be designed in such a way as to avoid prevent the tendencies toward egoistic tyranny. Money in and of itself allows humans to engage in social activities and exchange of goods and services. In a predatory capitalist model money becomes power and the means by which people are used and things are treasured. Greed, power and materialism abuses the value of human life and justifies wars of conquest, theft and slavery. When money is concentrated usury becomes the result. When you hear the phrase billionaires shouldn't exist, I don't think they mean the person or people, I think they mean the means by which they are created through unrestricted access. The ability to extract far more than what has been contributed through laws that allow profits to exceed reasonable compensation. A rigged game with liars and cheaters and a legal system of loopholes for a privileged class of criminal elitists. Its about seeing the big picture and preventing the abuses that come from the concentration of wealth and power. A government of the people, by the people, for the people with rules and laws that prevent such concentration of wealth in a few hands while ensuring the health and welfare of its citizen members. Not a socialized government ran by an elite class or tyrannical leader. No. But if we have a monetary system that is not privately owned. The tax system only taxes profits to maintain the value of the dollar and the equanimity of the system so it can fund the continuation of social health and development.
The dogmatic application of a reductionist scientific worldview onto complex human behaviors and structures is causing dissonance and division because it doesn't fit human nature.
@David Chorak You may be onto something there' The Hindus revere cows, who only say one word: moo. Moo is the only word in their vocabulary, and yet it means everything to a cow. They are masters of brevity.
The central question here presupposes that there are two poles of reality, the masculine and the feminine. And that balancing and integrating these two modes of being is essential for a healthy person, healthy relationship, healthy community, healthy nation etc. How do you have this conversation when this presupposition, that I think is correct, isn't recognized? I think discussions like these are helping tremendously in formulating the problem by asking the right questions, difficult as they might be, to open up a space for productive dialogue, insight and understanding. I'm left with the question of what does positive, or at least non-toxic, masculinity look like? How do we cultivate it in the individual and the collective? How do we communicate the concern of the feminine taking on the attributes of toxic masculinity under the guise of empowered feminism, without the usual pitfalls? What are the attributes of actual toxic feminism? What would the world look like if both modes of being were in balance?
Those are good questions. I also wonder if their is a consensus on what is healthy masculinityand what is healthy femininity throughout cultures and history. Do men and women have both Masculine and Feminine qualities?If so, are women supposed to cultivate more of the feminine and the man the masculine? If human beings possesses both qualities who chose that all women must incarnate the feminine only and that all men must incarnate the masculine only? The idea of men being in public space and women in private space.
Your example of letting everyone into your house reminded me of the movie Mother which I think brings out the danger of disrespecting the sanctity of the home perfectly.
@David Chorak I'm not sure that I follow your question. Who should clean their room? I think the "us" is actual human beings. I think he's just commenting on an increasing disgust of humanity from humans. The totalitarian impulse, the Ouroboros. Closed systems--imbalanced societies with lopsided masculinity (on all sides, not just the overtly masculine) will eventually cannibalize. I'm confused what you mean.
@@WhiteStoneName Is Ouroboros really a closed system tho? For it isn't really sufficient into itself, it is contained by something and set in motion by something that is not itself. Thus it points beyond itself.
One reason for a "softer approach" in the New testament is maybe cause Jesus / the Messiah is the foundation of the covenant of grace, as prophesied in the Old Testament.
@David Chorak I would assume it's meant to be taken literally, as in economically. Nobody likes someone who acts like they're completely above others, whether they're poor or rich. Julius caesar was known to spend one day a year pretending to be a beggar in the streets of Rome.
I think that was more meekness, poor in spirit means humbly acknoliging ones fundamental "existential poverty," one's finitude and dependence as a creature and child of God, an honest and liberating realization.
I think poor in spirit has to do with satisfaction. Rich people are economically satisfied. Therefore being poor in spirit means being hungry in spirit. I think it’s very important to point out that this is the first think Jesus says in the sermon of the mount. If you’re not hungry spiritually the rest of the things he’ll say won’t matter and you won’t understand the kingdom of God. It goes together with what Jesus says about being like little children. The kingdom of God is very simple for the humble but hard for the selfish. And dang I’m selfish a lot of times!
I think you two should do this more often, @Jonathan Pageau and @Benjamin Boyce :) Jonathan, I'm a simple modern girl. I wish there's an app version of you.
29:59 - "If you meet someone who has been completely swallowed up by one identity, it can be really hard to talk to them." This is true of the hyper religious as well, and a source of much of the negative stigma around religion, I think. I've lost a couple of family members to this kind of obsession.
I watch both of these guys occasionally, although more Jonathan, and this is the LAST couple of people I ever expected to see talking to each other, this is blowing my mind
The question/request of the woman in this time, I sense, is the same as Mary's was at the wedding at Cana - " divine Son, show yourself!" I would ask the men today " Where are you?" " Where is the masculine?" Not the effeminate "soyboys" or the politically correct scardy-boys. Not the aggressive or bullying beastly man. But the sacred masculine...... where are you guys? ( ....and yes, I am a mother to a son, too!)
NBIP - how easy it is to twist someone else's comment! .....without the necessary goodwill, you can read anything as "blasphemy". (Have you read the Bible?)
Adrian Courage - I go along with how these guys interpreted the whole scene - which is not " be the life of the party" but "show yourself to the world" ( because the world will take notice of you only if you do a miracle).( Jesus' response confirms that he understood the motive behind his mother's words in this way....) One of the beauty of a metaphor is that it can be interpreted in different ways, depending on the cognitive pattern you can see and recognise in it. :o)
„It is actually the feminine that is disappearing from the world“. I read somewhere an analogy of society as a house made of brick. Most think that the brick is the important part. Most ignore the mortar. Just imagine what happens to the house/society if you remove it.
I more get the impression that both are disappearing. The roles are being inverted, but men cannot be as feminine as women, women cannot be as masculine as men. Thus you end up with the destruction of both.
Jonathan, I got a good chuckle right along with you when he said there’s a New Testament God and an Old Testament God, 😂 no, there is just God and claiming there are two is a way to sort of project your morality onto God and say he doesn’t meet your standards. He gave us Jesus and that’s our only route to even beginning to understand him, or his will for us I should say. We will never understand God the Father. Also I don’t understand how anyone can claim a religion that regards a woman as the divine space that allowed God into our world is patriarchal. The obvious role of Mary Mother of Jesus shows how important women are. I’m not picking on Benjamin, wish him all the best. Hope you’re doing well, sir, really enjoy these videos. Thank you, and God bless gentlemen.
"Let's say we invited a homeless person to live with your family. Let's say we invite 50 because there are always more on the outside than on the inside. At what point does your family cease to exist".
Nice. I had never thought about the pattern of the woman, or feminine being what opens the door to the healer or warrior or saint before. In old Irish Myth it's common for an old hag/prophetess to train and have intimate relations with the warrior, such as Cuchulainn. And then, in Russia, The Romanov Czar's wife converted to the perverse beliefs of Rasputin, which then, lead to her "whispering" poor advice to her husband, opening the door to Russia's ensuing chaos of revolution. There seems a risk, a dark side to these doors that The Feminine opens, for it was not all sunshine and happiness for Jesus, nor for any characters in myth that I know of. Yes, there may be victory in the end, but only after much pain and sacrifice. Perhaps, we should wonder if females such as Greta Thunberg are a type of this feminine question opening doors. And what is the secret question, the opening up to harken The Healer? I think, it's more simple, yet difficult to do than we realize: Rest. Truly observe Rest on the edges of the storms and when people are shouting that we must do more and are not good enough. The true secret place of The Feminine is Rest. Peace on Earth, Goodwill to men.
As a cellular technician of 10+ years experience I cannot take anyone seriously who ignorantly microwaves their own brain with 2,45 GHz (microwave oven frequency) Bluetooth earbuds.
"They have no wine." as the description of the feminine just knocked my socks off. And the paradox that by venerating the feminine you are invoking the masculine. You see I just recently watched Frozen 2 which left me agonizing over these ideas when this video popped up #synchronicity
Did Jonathan say that venerating the feminine invokes the masculine? Not sure that he said that. He is an Orthodox Christian that venerate the Mother of God. I think he said we can't venerate the feminine the same way we do the masculine. Although that statement does not sit with me as well. We have many customs like Mother's Day that venerate the feminine in a similar way as the custom of Fathers day. Something is missing.
@@BrotherCecil the question was "what's the opposite of hierarchy". In the context of the question, constructing hierarchies is the masculine. By venerating or even naming the feminine is to place it within a hierarchy hence the mystery of it. That's how I understood his answer anyway
@@_Eamon So, you took "naming" something as placing it within a hierarchy? Interesting. I have to question that. Further research and reflection is needed. Thanks for your response.
This is a good one - we face reality , we are with God. If we see ourselves as consciousness we become responsible for our actions - in this we are with God. I’m down with this. This is why I live in fear and trembling.
@ 43:00 Boyce is asking why it's dangerous to claim that the outsider is better than you, and I would say it's dangerous because the narrative itself is a projection of one's own feeling of low self worth. This love for the outsider is the love for self destruction because the outsider will displace you. It is self judgement by exterior means. And I would say this characterizes the broken souls of these people very well. These sjws who rage at every supposed injustice, and seek to subsume themselves in the collective. They are so spiritually destitute that the collective identity replaces the self and purpose is defined by the will of the collective.
Lol, "talk at all levels at the same time". 14:30 I was interested enough to watch past the 3-minute mark because he seems to have developed past the symbolism (associations) of the association/emotion phase. And now is exploring the emotion/distinguish phase. Distinguishing between emotions leads to his metaphor of "a space opening up" and would seem to him to be a huge discovery. The next step might be, using his metaphor, be able to make (recognize) more spaces open up (cessation/commencement of emotions), shifting the spaces (causing emotions to be arranged into a sequence), till they make sense (synchronizing reality with emotions) and in doing so, develop the capacity to understand reality from the perspective of a sequence; thereby entering into the narrative mode.
Beautiful conversation. I really like the idea of the "secret feminists" that creates space for the transcendent to manifest. For the last 5-6 years this notion of being a space holder of space creator has been part of my "identity" and it's interestion to hear your thoughts on this idea. Much love 🙏
This concept of the feminine as question framing the masculine hierarchy has got to be the best metaphor for skepticism healthy skepticism is that which reveals new aspects of the hierarchy it frames or perhaps even prunes/improves it, eg the Jordan Peterson idea of burning off the deadwood unhealthy skepticism conceals the hierarchy it frames, or hyper-focuses on faults, or even destroys the hierarchy and itself in a kind of suicide pact I'm sure this is corny/offensive, but something about it as a metaphor resonates deeply with me: the good wife asks her husband, "how will we get through the winter?", and the husband rations food, lays traps, goes hunting the bad wife nags her husband, "how will we get through the winter?" for the 1000th time, and the husband, having gradually lost belief in himself, day by day, becomes weak, and the family starves healthy skepticism never stops believing in the essence of what it questions. A hierarchy may be corrupted, but there is always hope for rebirth and renewal. unhealthy skepticism turns antagonistically on what it questions. The hierarchy is beyond saving, it must be stamped out of existence.
Listening to this the thought occurs to me - could identity politics be an initial attempt to address the basic question ‘who am I?’ that gets seduced to stop at a place that has some external validation, rather than developing courage to persist on the lonely stretches of the journey? In my current view this path of ‘ inner activism’ asks more of me than anything else.
I dont get it ... the hard right is criticizing you because you aren't hard enough on Jordan Peterson? Most of the narrative online has been the hard left criticizing Peterson, or criticizing those who do not criticize Peterson enough. Now its the hard right? This is confusing.
OK .. just saw the Rebel Wisdom video with Jonathan titled "Peterson the heretic'. Jonathan made the comment that certain calvinist types have issues with Peterson because they believe your saved or not saved. Kinda black and white thinking. Peterson is a transitional figure with religion and so both sides (the right included) will take shots at him. Now I kinda understand where Jonathan is coming from. Transitional or characters from the margin impact both sides of the threshold. I should have known this because Jonathan has covered margins and boundaries many times.
I agree with Jonathan that much of modern discourse is far too literal and limited in its scope, people want to have only one level of meaning or only one definition of any given idea or concept. This makes a full understanding of reality impossible. It is necessary to think of things at many levels of meaning to have a full understanding. It's very frustrating to hear people getting stuck on these reductive definitions and existing in a severely limited version of reality. So much black and white thinking, a severe lack of nuance. Lack of humanity, in fact.
Could we not speak of the feminine in the public space the same way we speak about the Mother of God and other saints? Also does Christianity teach that a man is the incarnation of the masculine and women the incarnation of the feminine? Or is it more of a degrees of scale? Also, could we not look to Ancient cultures to get ideas or guidance on how the feminine was venerated?
Today's the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, in which she is celebrated as the ideal vessel (feminine) through which Christ would be born. It's a day of obligation (as is Dec 25, along with Jan 1 (for Mary) and Aug 15 (Mary again). Catholics venerate the feminine, I'm learning.
@@oambitiousone7100 Indeed. I just wondering what does Jonathan means by, if we speak of the feminine, it defame it? If we say God manifests as feminine and this is how the Divine does it, that is sacrilegious? But identifying how the Divine manifest in the masculine is just fine. Or is it?
I can’t help but think that when Christian history is written down in the future about this particular turn that Jonathan Pageau will be a name in which we will remember as an influential thinker.
How many people has he led to Jesus Christ? What does God's Word say about the role of women? Why were they created?(GENESIS 3, EPHESISANS 5, TITUS 2)What does it say about men who are effeminate? They will not inherit the kingdom of God
"My hour has not yet come" -- it is a reference to Christ's passion but, as I was taught, is also a reference to birth -- the birth of Jesus' mission. When a woman's hour has come it also was a reference to her going into labour/birth.
@@robertwray5043 It is both. It is the birth of his ministry and a reference to his death. Learned this in theology program. In literary biblical analysis things can have two meanings which adds to the richness of our understanding of it. The professor who taught us about this is a published Biblical scholar.
@@lauragiles5193 thanks for your reply, respectfully, I am in school myself, serve under men with credentials as well, but what it boils down to is this: what does God's Word say, firstly in context.
Yesss. You are each my good good friends (in that bizarre, one-sided way) and this is such a great conversation to listen in on. What a treat. 🙏 Keep it up guys.
The Church as the bride of Christ is the Gate of heaven; the space Christ will manifest within and through. He will manifest in and through her in the barren, desolate places to bring life through union; marriage. He reveals the Father and they have sons that are brought to maturity; glory; in His image. His bride is that feminine space to manifest His image and presence.
30:00 Jon described what Christians look like to someone who doesn't "identify" with the Church. I can appreciate Christianity intellectually but I'm not moved to subsume myself within the actual physical entity.
If you take the Planet of the Apes example and replace 'Apes' with 'Every Non-Human Animal' you basically have William Kotzwinkle's Doctor Rat which I'm making a kind of 'Fan Sequel' to tearing apart this idea of what I call 'Animal as Noble Savage' Here is the first complete storywww.fanfiction.net/s/12722318/1/The-Revenants-of-Dark-EarthAnd the second half yet to be finishedwww.fanfiction.net/story/story_edit_property.php?storyid=13119961
@David Chorak Feminine as they describe in this talk: the passive, secret, making space for action way: as a mode of being, not the sex/gender mess the moderns have cooked up.
So do you know Yeshua? Do you know you have Salvation? I was wondering where you stand Mr. Jonathan?. Please, tell your subscribers. I'm new to the channel forgive me if you ALREADY have.... Love you and your work Sir. May God bless you and your Family 🙏 AMEN.... I'll keep you in my prayers Brother 💯 😊. Love you Much, and God has a plan for your life through his son.
He was Baptist and went Orthodox and now carves Orthodox icons by commission and hobby for arts sake. He accepts Jesus as Lord and I think you would find the orthodox salvation perspective refreshing and more empowering because it reveals more meaning of God’s love for us than Protestants depict. You should check into some orthodox christian channels if you want to understand Jonathan more.
@@verntweld51 VERY INTERESTING! My wife Gabriela is orthodox and I am Born Again. I have met some really devout and respectable Orthodox that I've Minister too about the Gospel. I'm not one for tradition more of living the will of my father and friend Jesus Christ. I've been commissioned to spread the good news of Yeshua(Salvation). But Amen to that!, my brothers in Christ Jesus 🙏. I'll have you in my prayers and Jonathan too🙏. Great Guy and GREAT VIDEOS 👍💯...
@Sean Welch Simeon told her when she presented him in the Temple: "Behold this child shall be the cause of the rise and fall of many in Israel and shall be a sign that will be contradicted, and you yourself a sword shall pierce, so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed" here I think there is some foreshadowing of the cross.
35:00 yesssss!!! But it doesnt stop at white ppl. Everybody says the “offputting” thing between races/nationalities. We just mess with each other and its all good.
Tell all the truth but tell it slant - Success in Circuit lies Too bright for our infirm Delight The Truth's superb surprise As Lightning to the Children eased With explanation kind The Truth must dazzle gradually Or every man be blind - Emily Dickinson
42:20 THIS! Exactly this is the very thing that broke me, and that got me to reject my entire world view, because either I would find a new world view or I would simply have to kill myself. I had finally understood, although I could not put it into words, that the end conclusion of my world view was that I had no reason to think that my existence would be any better than my non-existence. I understood that a robot world led by an artificial intelligence would do a better job at whatever it is we're doing, and I now understand that this intuition came from AI being more "pure". I understood, from this "purity intuition", that there would be one thing that really mattered, and that whatever it was, I wasn't going to achieve it. I had to find this One Pure Thing, or I had to find an alternative to this non-specific One Pure Thing. After five years, I finally discovered Jesus to be this One Pure Thing, that holds together all meaning and existence. I still don't know how He does it, and perhaps I never will, but it has something to do with His great mercy, by which I have been given my place to exist. I basically never cry. But the occasional moment when I really understand this in my deepest being, that Jesus lets me or someone else exist, I cry.
Speaking of exorcisms... Trussell: Have you taken psychedelics? Peterson: Yes, I have. Peterson: Anyways, it was as if an offer was being made to me that I could be like that from now on permanently. And I thought, well, I don’t know how to do that. I couldn’t walk down the street in this condition, in this elevated condition. I wouldn’t belong in the world anymore. I wouldn’t know how to function. I don’t know how I could do it... So, this experience, this thing, say, that was communicating with me...accepted that as an answer, although I would say, with some sorrow, and then it receded. And then I went and talked to my wife, and I told her what had happened, and I was shaking, like, a lot.... Like, a tremendous amount. And my pupils were completely dilated. Trussell: Wow.
@David Chorak That is from the transcript of his talk with one Duncan Trussell. fencingbearatprayer.blogspot.com/2019/01/the-sworn-book-of-professor-peterson.html I didn't include the link in my original post as YT is in habit of hiding comments containing links. Let's see if this one will be visible to anyone other than myself.
0:00 John tells Ben Boyce about himself
3:43 _"If you are in a political fight, then you want a weapon. I don't feel like I give people weapons"_
The Hierarcy
Church Fathers , Patriarchy
Masculinity
16:00 An Act of Purity
Ex. Asking guests to leave your house so you can go to bed
Ex. Yelling out the window, telling someone to go away
20:08 The Leveling of Thought in the 2010's Mainstream
- You Can't Level Everything, Hierarchy's are inescapable, life has distinct levels of being
25:44 The Family Unit (Love for the whole & love for the individual)
Christianity works like that (Love the Trinity & love the 3 parts individually) Cohesion
27:59 Identity swallowed by 1 piece of the personality 31:28
38:20 Categorical Thinking
47:16 (1) Needs are powerful
"You pray to open up a space for the divine to manifest itself"
52:58 Help people see the world differently
54:14 League of Legends analogy (?)
This is getting Meta. They're having an interview about what it is like to be an interviewer
57:28 Jonathan Pageau's logo . The World is losing Femininity, it is less feminine than it used to be
You have no idea how useful comments like this one is my friend. Thank you :)
Re: 33:40 timestamp: I am taking advantage of this pinned post to offer a link to an excellent essay that may interest some viewers. I highly recommend the following piece from Australian author Shannen Burns-"In Defence of the Bad, White Working Class". meanjin.com.au/essays/in-defence-of-the-bad-white-working-class/
What I love the most about it is Burns' deft use of the form of a critical literary essay to make a point against the ultra-PC policing of language that is filtering down on the lower echelons of society from academia. Perhaps a more word salady way of putting it is to say that "the essay takes the hegemonic power of Foucaudian discourse analysis to subversively disrupt the status quo of the demonstrably privileged educated classes." ... Urmmm... I think that says what I mean...Cannot be sure though... ;P
@@virginiacharlotte7007 Excellent share, thank you!
Thanks for joining me again Jonathan!
this did NOT disappoint even my already elevated expectations. I think this will be my go-to introductory video to introduce Jonathan Pageau. Benjamin is a master!
44:47 and the peak at 47:08
Vervaeke's relevance realization?
Paul VanderKlay I completely agree! I’ve been watching a lot of Jonathan’s videos and he has opened up so many things for me. This video feels like a perfect synopsis of all the things he talks about.
I found him through JBP, who I have been following since 2016. Even after the hundreds of hours of time I have spent with both JBP and Jonathan, this video provided many new insights.
Any thoughts/insights on the topic discussed towards the end that has JP "thinking in a new way"?
@@barrycavett8977 Benjamin asked a question that opened up the space for the solution to manifest itself =) Beautiful :D
@David Chorak Jonathan's breakdown of love and Christianity was excellent. So few recognize how Jesus keeps playing with status (the greatest in the kingdom is the servant of all) and equality (no masters among you). Christianity is both order and freedom which is difficult for us to put together because for most of us order is the result of tyranny not voluntary-self-donating-submission.
“My wife has no time for my arrogance, and that’s really useful.” That’s a beautiful thing to say. Highlights the significance of Jonathon’s wife to his work, though she is not in the public eye as he is, she cultivates the space and private sphere of the home in which he flourishes... and we all benefit from their relationship.
yes. a good wife is not just valuable to her husband but being a correction and blast to her husband she also contributes to the functioning of society. We need to let women just how fulfilling and important that role can be.
@Isa I don't speak for all women. Neither of us do. Also I am a career woman who has an independent life as well as one as a wife and mother. It's just that the role of wife can be an important one. Let's support one another. No reason to get angry.
@Isa I don't see the need for all the mocking and expletives. We may not see eye to eye but I feel no need to insult you. I value your feedback but your words are so unnecessarily condescending. I want to hear what you have to say but please say it with the respect that everyone deserves.
Plus my husband would snicker at the idea of being my master for sure! In his dreams.
@Isa "Don't you dare..".. that's rich.
"Love is the balance between unity and multiplicity" 25:32
As a woman, I agree with you, the world is lacking the feminine. In destroying space we kill the realm of relating and the possibility of knowing each other, being conscious. Without space we are cramped up against each other, we can’t see ourselves or others, we lose our separate faces, and without a face, a consciousness, God cannot bd manifest. Sorry. I feel like a student trying to paraphrase to you what I just heard.
Love you guys so much!
“The natural consequence of your actions is the judgement of God.”
David Chorak How is free will at odds with God’s judgement? God is the law. He is the standard by which we’re judged.
O K
How do you presume to know what is or isn't art odds with God? We cannot do that from our limited perspective, even less can we discuss it in our languages... Absolute cannot be delimited
@@jarlnicholl1478 there's this new book where God generously goes over his will and his plan for us. It's called the Bible.
@@ancientflames But that was written by King James Bible (hence the name, 'Bible') and not by God.
@@mostlydead3261 haha what are you one about. It was written in Hebrew and Greek and has been translated to every language on Earth. Nothing of it originated in English or England.
Great video. So something like: masculinity is like building the house, while femininity is like turning it into a home.
And we can take that home analogy and apply it to any level of existence where a center has to exist, whether its the formation of a personal identity, family, or community. Women articulate the process of meaning, which than turns the material structure built by man, into a spiritual structure that we call a home (and all prefer to live in). And that is why the soul is considered feminine, and the body masculine.
And that's why you can say you're a feminist: you want to venerate this kind of cosmic homemaking, instead of downplaying it, as 4th wave feminism seems to want to do, by making women into another builder, leaving society in a state where it becomes a house, but never a home.
Jonathan's camera reminds me of an animated passport photo in this video
Benjamin, RE: the counter to hierarchy. In animal behavior science, there are two systems for avoiding intraspecific conflict: hierarchy and territoriality. Each bird and beast marks its own space by song or scat; a flock or pack often has a shared territory, but also individual dens. And like hierarchy, it extends well into a metaphorical or spiritual space; Stephen Pressfield, for example, says that the artist must explore deep into his own territory and not concern himself with placement in the hierarchy. There is a constant interplay and many ways to balance these factors, but they exist in all sentient life.
Excellent rejoindre-thank you!
Perfect cross over ... I found so many of these wonderful, inspirational, brotherly creators by themselves.. all pioneering in their own right. And here they are all come together, on the frontier.
I hope to settle this land that they have first set foot.
Well perhaps for a philistine such as myself.... What true pioneers in the cutting edge frontier would you suggest as a more authentic alternative?
@@jarlnicholl1478 excellent avoidance of my counter question. But I will give you the time and answer your baseless and pointedly offensive assertions that I am a close minded ideological zombie. I simply spoke with poetic admiration for the two speakers given that they both are exploring the kinds of questions I yearn to find answers for; and there isn't a wealth of similar content creators like them.
I was once a rational suicidal genocidal misanthrope and these fine gentleman aid me in devining meaning in this absurd existence. For me, personally, from the short sighted view I can spy from my little node, these men are in the vanguard. So I celebrate them .. you request that I get off my high horse using the Lobfathers own phrase and not your own, would suggest to me at least that you my friend are the one trapped in a sort of ideological honey pot. You demand I get off my high horse , well I say you'll have to do better than that to unsaddled me. Your claim of what's implicit snacks of the kind of omniscients that paranoid authoritarians attribute to things they don't like or understand. I tell you plainly that I do not place myself above these two men. You won't accept this because you know better? You can see what we all cannot!? Take me in good faith friend, here,take my hand there's room enough on this high horse for two!
Now how about my first question?
Ben Quinlan JP is just sharing the Orthodox Christian understanding of the world. It’s been around a couple thousand years.
@@Aquaticphilosophia I wasn't aware though haha ... Why is everyone so salty that I admire these two men? It's not brand new granted- correct! To me it is. I had no idea how applicable this lense was being brought up in sudo- Christian secular materialism Ireland.
@@benjaminlquinlan8702 I think its great you admire them. But if you like how JP thinks, Johnathan is in the Orthodox Church and is expressing the Church's understanding of reality in modern terms. The Church taught him to think like this. Yes, other forms of Christianity are incomplete, with horrific consequences, and it is tragic the actual lens of Orthodoxy was lost in the West, and good it is being rediscovered.
"Precondition of the actuality is the possibility" I like that :D
Thank you for releasing it to broader public.
My two favorite UA-camrs together!! Great talk
It sounds like when we talk about masculine and feminine he's talking about duality in general. How we need to harmonize the two, not mix them just in case that's what you're thinking.
33:40 this part stuck with me. I've been always close to people from other ethnicities or whatever, Im from Argentina, a nation founded by anglosaxons and then modernized spanish and italians; most people here are poor or middle class; there's a incredibly huge gap between making fun of someone because of their immediate features and being racist, and it is clear in the words we use and the way we say it, paraguayans make fun of argentinians and viceversa, bolivians, peruvians, chilean, uruguayan, colombians, to an extent, christians, evangelicals, jews, it doesn't matter, it's all in the spirit of being offensive to get a reaction, all of this, while having fun of course.The reason why I'm saying this is because a lot of people has a strange almost fetishistic approach to black people in North America, while in here they're treated like everyone else, and a common nickname they'll get is "negro", which means, you guessed it, black. And there's no problem with that, it is said in an amicable manner, the jew will be called "judío", the guy with very north european features would be called "gringo" or "tedesco" or "alemán", the italian will be called "tano", the guy with long hair and long beard (like me), will be called "Jesus" or "Muslim", and so on, no one gets offended by this, and if so, they'll be mock for behaving like a little kid.
You anglos just don't know how to have fun! Even though a lot of canadians have french blood in them, conceiving them some sort of latin relief, you're being manhandled by "those".
I hope that verming, that skit mark that is destroying our cultures eventually goes away...Logos is rising.
You have described to a tee the Australia I grew up in and am grudgingly admitting has been disappearing as the left has been increasing its death grip of PC censoriousness on our broadcast utilities, into business and education all of which dovetails with the arrival of new incomers beginning 20 or so years ago .
We were also settled by anglo-saxons but built over 200 years primarily by anglos and irish with spatterings of chinese, afghans and germans then much later by a big influx of greeks, italians and eastern europeans. That style of good natured humour on differences you describe functioned very similarly with this ethnic diversity. The next major group to arrive, the vietnamese, appear to have adapted in the main, to this humour but since then it would be fair to deduce that succeeding incoming groups from a specific religious culture are not able to process this approach to interracial interactions.
@@Ariannaishun There's no more struggle to muddle through, and the powers that be are creating them between us, a constant state of alert and stress is needed for us to consume and create tensions with each other, at least that's what I think, it's horrible.
I always saw Australia (even though I never visited it) very close to us South American countries, maybe it's because of our origins, I wish you the best.
(49:55) The feminine is the impetus to change, the motivation to begin. So we women were born to point out problems !😆
@David Chorak I'm a former yoga instructor who doesn't want to mess w/changing her email. Becoming Catholic, actually 😊
I _really_ liked this chat. 🥇
Just it was "positive".
So grateful I discovered Jonathan on UA-cam. Thank you
Great discussion. In truth, there aren't many other channels where I can expect to listen to very nuanced discussions like this. --- And good to see you again, Benjamin.
Wow. That was awesome guys. You're on point..have not missed the mark. Bulls eye 🙂
Enjoying this exchange. There are just some conversations you wish you could be a part of and this is one of them. I wonder how you relate with the esoteric understanding of the masculine and feminine / Left brain / right brain and the wholeness of the holy union. Consider social conflict and the inflated ego being the destructive aspect that leads to all the sexual identity confusion. The growing complexity of gender identity seems like a chaotic reaction to the internal struggle between ego desires and soul needs. could purity be about returning to the original design? Is purity being confused with superior?
The analogy I like to use is the Clay or play-doe if you will. When you buy a new pack you have all the colors separated. You can make all kinds of things by bringing the colors together for depth and contrast. After a while however the doe or clay begins to loose its original quality and the colors get so mixed there is no separation to distinguish or design versatile subjects. Eventually you have to go buy a new pack. We love all the colors of the rainbow but if you mix all the colors together you no longer have a rainbow. No color is more valuable than any other color, but everyone happens to have a favorite color, or a favorite flavor, or music or smell. Purity is actually about valuing the diversity by maintaining it. In this manner we learn to honor boundaries seeing the necessitate for them in order to honor what God has created from his original design.
Billionaires, millionaires The capital system and the social structure for a healthy and peaceful existence. How does humanity maintain equanimity?
When money is used to help facilitate social contracts for the purpose of improving the quality of life for all participants, the rules of engagement and exchange must be designed in such a way as to avoid prevent the tendencies toward egoistic tyranny. Money in and of itself allows humans to engage in social activities and exchange of goods and services. In a predatory capitalist model money becomes power and the means by which people are used and things are treasured. Greed, power and materialism abuses the value of human life and justifies wars of conquest, theft and slavery. When money is concentrated usury becomes the result.
When you hear the phrase billionaires shouldn't exist, I don't think they mean the person or people, I think they mean the means by which they are created through unrestricted access. The ability to extract far more than what has been contributed through laws that allow profits to exceed reasonable compensation. A rigged game with liars and cheaters and a legal system of loopholes for a privileged class of criminal elitists. Its about seeing the big picture and preventing the abuses that come from the concentration of wealth and power.
A government of the people, by the people, for the people with rules and laws that prevent such concentration of wealth in a few hands while ensuring the health and welfare of its citizen members. Not a socialized government ran by an elite class or tyrannical leader. No. But if we have a monetary system that is not privately owned. The tax system only taxes profits to maintain the value of the dollar and the equanimity of the system so it can fund the continuation of social health and development.
The dogmatic application of a reductionist scientific worldview onto complex human behaviors and structures is causing dissonance and division because it doesn't fit human nature.
Cough... Michael... cough... Oakeshott.
Yeah like... we're all one, maaaaaan.
@David Chorak Reductionism IS philosophy. Anything else is sentimental gobbledygook.
@David Chorak You may be onto something there' The Hindus revere cows, who only say one word: moo. Moo is the only word in their vocabulary, and yet it means everything to a cow. They are masters of brevity.
@David Chorak Great post. I'm actually pretty knowledgeable of Hinduism, but cows are always funny to discuss.
Yes please talk more. Great questions by Benjamin
The central question here presupposes that there are two poles of reality, the masculine and the feminine. And that balancing and integrating these two modes of being is essential for a healthy person, healthy relationship, healthy community, healthy nation etc.
How do you have this conversation when this presupposition, that I think is correct, isn't recognized?
I think discussions like these are helping tremendously in formulating the problem by asking the right questions, difficult as they might be, to open up a space for productive dialogue, insight and understanding.
I'm left with the question of what does positive, or at least non-toxic, masculinity look like? How do we cultivate it in the individual and the collective?
How do we communicate the concern of the feminine taking on the attributes of toxic masculinity under the guise of empowered feminism, without the usual pitfalls?
What are the attributes of actual toxic feminism?
What would the world look like if both modes of being were in balance?
Those are good questions. I also wonder if their is a consensus on what is healthy masculinityand what is healthy femininity throughout cultures and history. Do men and women have both Masculine and Feminine qualities?If so, are women supposed to cultivate more of the feminine and the man the masculine? If human beings possesses both qualities who chose that all women must incarnate the feminine only and that all men must incarnate the masculine only? The idea of men being in public space and women in private space.
This is one of the best things I've seen in a while. Really good stuff both of you!
Your example of letting everyone into your house reminded me of the movie Mother which I think brings out the danger of disrespecting the sanctity of the home perfectly.
42:20 "Robots are more human than us." Welcome to Lewis's "That Hideous Strength".
BLADE RUNNER: 2049
Streets of Vancouver absolutely! I forgot about that. Perfect example.
@David Chorak I'm not sure that I follow your question. Who should clean their room?
I think the "us" is actual human beings. I think he's just commenting on an increasing disgust of humanity from humans. The totalitarian impulse, the Ouroboros. Closed systems--imbalanced societies with lopsided masculinity (on all sides, not just the overtly masculine) will eventually cannibalize.
I'm confused what you mean.
@@WhiteStoneName Is Ouroboros really a closed system tho? For it isn't really sufficient into itself, it is contained by something and set in motion by something that is not itself. Thus it points beyond itself.
This was phenomenal! Thanks for sharing.
One reason for a "softer approach" in the New testament is maybe cause Jesus / the Messiah is the foundation of the covenant of grace, as prophesied in the Old Testament.
Underrated conversation. Excellent Jonathan.
Great conversation!
"I wish the woke types would just go hang out with poor people."
We should all be poor in spirit
@David Chorak I would assume it's meant to be taken literally, as in economically. Nobody likes someone who acts like they're completely above others, whether they're poor or rich. Julius caesar was known to spend one day a year pretending to be a beggar in the streets of Rome.
I think that was more meekness, poor in spirit means humbly acknoliging ones fundamental "existential poverty," one's finitude and dependence as a creature and child of God, an honest and liberating realization.
I think poor in spirit has to do with satisfaction. Rich people are economically satisfied. Therefore being poor in spirit means being hungry in spirit. I think it’s very important to point out that this is the first think Jesus says in the sermon of the mount. If you’re not hungry spiritually the rest of the things he’ll say won’t matter and you won’t understand the kingdom of God. It goes together with what Jesus says about being like little children. The kingdom of God is very simple for the humble but hard for the selfish. And dang I’m selfish a lot of times!
@@carpejkdiem No doubt it's part of the amorphous "religiosity" of those who wish for religion without committing to one.
I think you two should do this more often, @Jonathan Pageau and @Benjamin Boyce :)
Jonathan, I'm a simple modern girl. I wish there's an app version of you.
29:59 - "If you meet someone who has been completely swallowed up by one identity, it can be really hard to talk to them."
This is true of the hyper religious as well, and a source of much of the negative stigma around religion, I think. I've lost a couple of family members to this kind of obsession.
(Just writing to get notifications for future replies, don't mind me)
Very true
My goodness, this is outstanding!
Transformative talk guys 🤯 I'm only half way through 😂 thanks and blessing to you both
I watch both of these guys occasionally, although more Jonathan, and this is the LAST couple of people I ever expected to see talking to each other, this is blowing my mind
The question/request of the woman in this time, I sense, is the same as Mary's was at the wedding at Cana - " divine Son, show yourself!" I would ask the men today " Where are you?" " Where is the masculine?" Not the effeminate "soyboys"
or the politically correct scardy-boys. Not the aggressive or bullying beastly man.
But the sacred masculine...... where are you guys? ( ....and yes, I am a mother to a son, too!)
Turning water into wine, is that not a metaphor for being the life of the party?
So you directly compare yourself to The Mother of God?
NBIP - how easy it is to twist someone else's comment! .....without the necessary goodwill, you can read anything as "blasphemy". (Have you read the Bible?)
Adrian Courage - I go along with how these guys interpreted the whole scene - which is not " be the life of the party" but "show yourself to the world" ( because the world will take notice of you only if you do a miracle).( Jesus' response confirms that he understood the motive behind his mother's words in this way....)
One of the beauty of a metaphor is that it can be interpreted in different ways, depending on the cognitive pattern you can see and recognise in it. :o)
Just asking a simple question.
We're in the youtube comment section, not in your 'charismatic' prayer group / your yeshiva / your scottish rite lodge.
This istogather with the coinsidence of opposites from Ian mcGilchrist the most eye opening video I saw in 2024! Thank you both so much!
Enjoyed every second of this, great convo!
2 of my favorite. They both make me re-think and think.
„It is actually the feminine that is disappearing from the world“. I read somewhere an analogy of society as a house made of brick. Most think that the brick is the important part. Most ignore the mortar. Just imagine what happens to the house/society if you remove it.
I more get the impression that both are disappearing. The roles are being inverted, but men cannot be as feminine as women, women cannot be as masculine as men. Thus you end up with the destruction of both.
The Femininity of Joe Rogan... I had never thought of good interviewing being a fundamentally feminine quality, "opening up spaces". 54:50
Thanks Benjamin and Jonathan.
Jonathan, I got a good chuckle right along with you when he said there’s a New Testament God and an Old Testament God, 😂 no, there is just God and claiming there are two is a way to sort of project your morality onto God and say he doesn’t meet your standards. He gave us Jesus and that’s our only route to even beginning to understand him, or his will for us I should say. We will never understand God the Father. Also I don’t understand how anyone can claim a religion that regards a woman as the divine space that allowed God into our world is patriarchal. The obvious role of Mary Mother of Jesus shows how important women are. I’m not picking on Benjamin, wish him all the best. Hope you’re doing well, sir, really enjoy these videos. Thank you, and God bless gentlemen.
"Let's say we invited a homeless person to live with your family. Let's say we invite 50 because there are always more on the outside than on the inside. At what point does your family cease to exist".
Nice. I had never thought about the pattern of the woman, or feminine being what opens the door to the healer or warrior or saint before. In old Irish Myth it's common for an old hag/prophetess to train and have intimate relations with the warrior, such as Cuchulainn. And then, in Russia, The Romanov Czar's wife converted to the perverse beliefs of Rasputin, which then, lead to her "whispering" poor advice to her husband, opening the door to Russia's ensuing chaos of revolution. There seems a risk, a dark side to these doors that The Feminine opens, for it was not all sunshine and happiness for Jesus, nor for any characters in myth that I know of. Yes, there may be victory in the end, but only after much pain and sacrifice. Perhaps, we should wonder if females such as Greta Thunberg are a type of this feminine question opening doors. And what is the secret question, the opening up to harken The Healer? I think, it's more simple, yet difficult to do than we realize: Rest. Truly observe Rest on the edges of the storms and when people are shouting that we must do more and are not good enough. The true secret place of The Feminine is Rest. Peace on Earth, Goodwill to men.
As a cellular technician of 10+ years experience I cannot take anyone seriously who ignorantly microwaves their own brain with 2,45 GHz (microwave oven frequency) Bluetooth earbuds.
Well..
@@axp8598 Like, I want to take him seriously, I'm on his side on the matter, but there's some things you just can't unsee.
@@MikhalisBramouell I know.
40:20 This. "The world is one wild divorce court." - G.K. Chesterton
Like the world can be properly captured in language, let alone summarised in a single sentence.
"They have no wine." as the description of the feminine just knocked my socks off. And the paradox that by venerating the feminine you are invoking the masculine. You see I just recently watched Frozen 2 which left me agonizing over these ideas when this video popped up #synchronicity
Did Jonathan say that venerating the feminine invokes the masculine? Not sure that he said that. He is an Orthodox Christian that venerate the Mother of God. I think he said we can't venerate the feminine the same way we do the masculine. Although that statement does not sit with me as well. We have many customs like Mother's Day that venerate the feminine in a similar way as the custom of Fathers day. Something is missing.
@@BrotherCecil the question was "what's the opposite of hierarchy". In the context of the question, constructing hierarchies is the masculine. By venerating or even naming the feminine is to place it within a hierarchy hence the mystery of it. That's how I understood his answer anyway
@David Chorak what
@@_Eamon Equality.
@@_Eamon So, you took "naming" something as placing it within a hierarchy? Interesting. I have to question that. Further research and reflection is needed. Thanks for your response.
Wow! Great video!🖤
This is a good one - we face reality , we are with God. If we see ourselves as consciousness we become responsible for our actions - in this we are with God.
I’m down with this. This is why I live in fear and trembling.
@ 43:00 Boyce is asking why it's dangerous to claim that the outsider is better than you, and I would say it's dangerous because the narrative itself is a projection of one's own feeling of low self worth. This love for the outsider is the love for self destruction because the outsider will displace you. It is self judgement by exterior means.
And I would say this characterizes the broken souls of these people very well. These sjws who rage at every supposed injustice, and seek to subsume themselves in the collective. They are so spiritually destitute that the collective identity replaces the self and purpose is defined by the will of the collective.
Lol, "talk at all levels at the same time". 14:30
I was interested enough to watch past the 3-minute mark because he seems to have developed past the symbolism (associations) of the association/emotion phase. And now is exploring the emotion/distinguish phase. Distinguishing between emotions leads to his metaphor of "a space opening up" and would seem to him to be a huge discovery.
The next step might be, using his metaphor, be able to make (recognize) more spaces open up (cessation/commencement of emotions), shifting the spaces (causing emotions to be arranged into a sequence), till they make sense (synchronizing reality with emotions) and in doing so, develop the capacity to understand reality from the perspective of a sequence; thereby entering into the narrative mode.
Clever use of the word ‘particle’ for the unit. And important to know the particles are made with a spear.
Beautiful conversation. I really like the idea of the "secret feminists" that creates space for the transcendent to manifest. For the last 5-6 years this notion of being a space holder of space creator has been part of my "identity" and it's interestion to hear your thoughts on this idea. Much love 🙏
This concept of the feminine as question framing the masculine hierarchy has got to be the best metaphor for skepticism
healthy skepticism is that which reveals new aspects of the hierarchy it frames
or perhaps even prunes/improves it, eg the Jordan Peterson idea of burning off the deadwood
unhealthy skepticism conceals the hierarchy it frames, or hyper-focuses on faults, or even destroys the hierarchy and itself in a kind of suicide pact
I'm sure this is corny/offensive, but something about it as a metaphor resonates deeply with me:
the good wife asks her husband, "how will we get through the winter?", and the husband rations food, lays traps, goes hunting
the bad wife nags her husband, "how will we get through the winter?" for the 1000th time, and the husband, having gradually lost belief in himself, day by day, becomes weak, and the family starves
healthy skepticism never stops believing in the essence of what it questions. A hierarchy may be corrupted, but there is always hope for rebirth and renewal.
unhealthy skepticism turns antagonistically on what it questions. The hierarchy is beyond saving, it must be stamped out of existence.
You should try reading some pre-socratic philosophers. 😉
@@ZeldaZonk-zt8fr I'm a philosophical dunce, could you please elaborate on why and maybe recommend something?
@@chrisc7265 If you are so philosophically illiterate, you should refrain from making any proclamations about these issues.
@@mostlydead3261 are there any valid interpretations of life outside of the philosophical?
This was good. Would like more!
Listening to this the thought occurs to me - could identity politics be an initial attempt to address the basic question ‘who am I?’ that gets seduced to stop at a place that has some external validation, rather than developing courage to persist on the lonely stretches of the journey?
In my current view this path of ‘ inner activism’ asks more of me than anything else.
I dont get it ... the hard right is criticizing you because you aren't hard enough on Jordan Peterson? Most of the narrative online has been the hard left criticizing Peterson, or criticizing those who do not criticize Peterson enough. Now its the hard right? This is confusing.
I wonder about this too, it seems to be in error.
OK .. just saw the Rebel Wisdom video with Jonathan titled "Peterson the heretic'. Jonathan made the comment that certain calvinist types have issues with Peterson because they believe your saved or not saved. Kinda black and white thinking. Peterson is a transitional figure with religion and so both sides (the right included) will take shots at him. Now I kinda understand where Jonathan is coming from. Transitional or characters from the margin impact both sides of the threshold. I should have known this because Jonathan has covered margins and boundaries many times.
I agree with Jonathan that much of modern discourse is far too literal and limited in its scope, people want to have only one level of meaning or only one definition of any given idea or concept. This makes a full understanding of reality impossible. It is necessary to think of things at many levels of meaning to have a full understanding. It's very frustrating to hear people getting stuck on these reductive definitions and existing in a severely limited version of reality.
So much black and white thinking, a severe lack of nuance.
Lack of humanity, in fact.
Could we not speak of the feminine in the public space the same way we speak about the Mother of God and other saints? Also does Christianity teach that a man is the incarnation of the masculine and women the incarnation of the feminine? Or is it more of a degrees of scale? Also, could we not look to Ancient cultures to get ideas or guidance on how the feminine was venerated?
Today's the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, in which she is celebrated as the ideal vessel (feminine) through which Christ would be born. It's a day of obligation (as is Dec 25, along with Jan 1 (for Mary) and Aug 15 (Mary again). Catholics venerate the feminine, I'm learning.
@@oambitiousone7100 Indeed. I just wondering what does Jonathan means by, if we speak of the feminine, it defame it? If we say God manifests as feminine and this is how the Divine does it, that is sacrilegious? But identifying how the Divine manifest in the masculine is just fine. Or is it?
@@BrotherCecil Simple opinions...
I can’t help but think that when Christian history is written down in the future about this particular turn that Jonathan Pageau will be a name in which we will remember as an influential thinker.
How many people has he led to Jesus Christ?
What does God's Word say about the role of women? Why were they created?(GENESIS 3, EPHESISANS 5, TITUS 2)What does it say about men who are effeminate? They will not inherit the kingdom of God
Where is this orthodox symbolic podcast Jonathan said about?
Nature of Reality: always more on the Outside than the Inside.
Where can I get that tshirt?
37:48 what was that forbidden sentence?
always blame the tank
"My hour has not yet come" -- it is a reference to Christ's passion but, as I was taught, is also a reference to birth -- the birth of Jesus' mission. When a woman's hour has come it also was a reference to her going into labour/birth.
It's a reference to Jesus' arrest and crucifixion when he said that. Jesus was already ministering and doing his missionary work.
Respectfully🙌
@@robertwray5043 It is both. It is the birth of his ministry and a reference to his death. Learned this in theology program. In literary biblical analysis things can have two meanings which adds to the richness of our understanding of it. The professor who taught us about this is a published Biblical scholar.
@@lauragiles5193 thanks for your reply, respectfully, I am in school myself, serve under men with credentials as well, but what it boils down to is this: what does God's Word say, firstly in context.
"Luckily I go to confession..." haha.
(31:51) Steps to help break out of identity idolatry? Watch all of JBPs classroom lectures + his Genesis exposition. STAT.
What about John the Baptist and the Baptism of Christ Jesus, was that not His introduction unveiling who Jesus was the beginning of His ministry.
Opposite of.Hierarchy might be something like Anarchy..
D E R R I D E A N X T I A N I T Y
Yesss. You are each my good good friends (in that bizarre, one-sided way) and this is such a great conversation to listen in on. What a treat. 🙏 Keep it up guys.
Amazing question 50 minutes in.
What different levels is he talking about? Like from different -isms? Postmodernism, modernism, etc.
Pageau in a corner like Little Jack Horner
Jonathan, you do give weapons. Just not the kind totalitarians are looking to wield.
The Church as the bride of Christ is the Gate of heaven; the space Christ will manifest within and through. He will manifest in and through her in the barren, desolate places to bring life through union; marriage. He reveals the Father and they have sons that are brought to maturity; glory; in His image. His bride is that feminine space to manifest His image and presence.
30:00 Jon described what Christians look like to someone who doesn't "identify" with the Church. I can appreciate Christianity intellectually but I'm not moved to subsume myself within the actual physical entity.
If you take the Planet of the Apes example and replace 'Apes' with 'Every Non-Human Animal' you basically have William Kotzwinkle's Doctor Rat which I'm making a kind of 'Fan Sequel' to tearing apart this idea of what I call 'Animal as Noble Savage' Here is the first complete storywww.fanfiction.net/s/12722318/1/The-Revenants-of-Dark-EarthAnd the second half yet to be finishedwww.fanfiction.net/story/story_edit_property.php?storyid=13119961
OOps! www.fanfiction.net/s/13119961/1/The-Heart-of-Life
Interesting conversation but way to many commercials. It makes it hard to focus on what you are saying.
Please do a video on the art piece with just a banana and duct tape that sold for a crazy amount of money .
Rachel Parra DeLong people use art to launder money. It was probably payment for sex slaves or drugs.
Some “A” grade poking around. Well done!
💘
49:26 Wait, are you saying Mary did know??
this guy is the last man.
Jonatha Pageau looks like a wholesome, non-nihilistic version of Dan Harmon.
You might be co-opting the FEMININE mode, but I would never stoop to call JP a feminist.
What is the symbolism of the words FEMININE and FAMINE being so similar?
@David Chorak Feminine as they describe in this talk: the passive, secret, making space for action way: as a mode of being, not the sex/gender mess the moderns have cooked up.
So do you know Yeshua? Do you know you have Salvation? I was wondering where you stand Mr. Jonathan?. Please, tell your subscribers. I'm new to the channel forgive me if you ALREADY have.... Love you and your work Sir. May God bless you and your Family 🙏 AMEN.... I'll keep you in my prayers Brother 💯 😊. Love you Much, and God has a plan for your life through his son.
He was Baptist and went Orthodox and now carves Orthodox icons by commission and hobby for arts sake. He accepts Jesus as Lord and I think you would find the orthodox salvation perspective refreshing and more empowering because it reveals more meaning of God’s love for us than Protestants depict. You should check into some orthodox christian channels if you want to understand Jonathan more.
@@verntweld51 VERY INTERESTING! My wife Gabriela is orthodox and I am Born Again. I have met some really devout and respectable Orthodox that I've Minister too about the Gospel. I'm not one for tradition more of living the will of my father and friend Jesus Christ. I've been commissioned to spread the good news of Yeshua(Salvation). But Amen to that!, my brothers in Christ Jesus 🙏. I'll have you in my prayers and Jonathan too🙏. Great Guy and GREAT VIDEOS 👍💯...
Jesus knew that turning the water into wine at Canaana would begin His journey to the cross.
Do you think that Mary also knew that?
@Sean Welch Simeon told her when she presented him in the Temple: "Behold this child shall be the cause of the rise and fall of many in Israel and shall be a sign that will be contradicted, and you yourself a sword shall pierce, so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed" here I think there is some foreshadowing of the cross.
11
35:00 yesssss!!! But it doesnt stop at white ppl. Everybody says the “offputting” thing between races/nationalities. We just mess with each other and its all good.
Tell all the truth but tell it slant -
Success in Circuit lies
Too bright for our infirm Delight
The Truth's superb surprise
As Lightning to the Children eased
With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind
- Emily Dickinson
42:20 THIS! Exactly this is the very thing that broke me, and that got me to reject my entire world view, because either I would find a new world view or I would simply have to kill myself. I had finally understood, although I could not put it into words, that the end conclusion of my world view was that I had no reason to think that my existence would be any better than my non-existence. I understood that a robot world led by an artificial intelligence would do a better job at whatever it is we're doing, and I now understand that this intuition came from AI being more "pure".
I understood, from this "purity intuition", that there would be one thing that really mattered, and that whatever it was, I wasn't going to achieve it. I had to find this One Pure Thing, or I had to find an alternative to this non-specific One Pure Thing. After five years, I finally discovered Jesus to be this One Pure Thing, that holds together all meaning and existence. I still don't know how He does it, and perhaps I never will, but it has something to do with His great mercy, by which I have been given my place to exist.
I basically never cry. But the occasional moment when I really understand this in my deepest being, that Jesus lets me or someone else exist, I cry.
The secret exchange is obviously booty
Jordan Peterson is now officially an exorcist.
A1R ?
He probably needs an exorcism himself.
Buckos worldwide hope that he'll perform exorcism on his daughter.
Speaking of exorcisms...
Trussell: Have you taken psychedelics?
Peterson: Yes, I have.
Peterson: Anyways, it was as if an offer was being made to me that I could be like that from now on permanently. And I thought, well, I don’t know how to do that. I couldn’t walk down the street in this condition, in this elevated condition. I wouldn’t belong in the world anymore. I wouldn’t know how to function. I don’t know how I could do it... So, this experience, this thing, say, that was communicating with me...accepted that as an answer, although I would say, with some sorrow, and then it receded. And then I went and talked to my wife, and I told her what had happened, and I was shaking, like, a lot.... Like, a tremendous amount. And my pupils were completely dilated.
Trussell: Wow.
@David Chorak That is from the transcript of his talk with one Duncan Trussell.
fencingbearatprayer.blogspot.com/2019/01/the-sworn-book-of-professor-peterson.html
I didn't include the link in my original post as YT is in habit of hiding comments containing links. Let's see if this one will be visible to anyone other than myself.
Secret feminism! I’m signing up! What’s the password?
Your description of actions with consequences sounds like Karma.